Hey Man, I initially I was only watching you on RUclips using my Old Xbox 360 so was unable to Subscribe and like your vids but am a Sub now but tend to like and share it after the fact using my iPad to access RUclips!!!! Really enjoy your vids recommend you to everyone on the Facebook WOWsL site!!! Keep up the great work, and thanks for helping this Old Man at 62 keep up with the younger crowd!!!!
Tbull I just switched to using von Hipper with Madden and Cunningham as inspirations since I got the Tirpitz and it's been working out pretty well for the long and medium game for me. The dispersion of the rounds is pretty good and I'm seeing games about the same as my Iowa with it. He also works pretty well with the tier 3 through 5.
Von hipper for gneisenau ciliax for every other ship. If you want to get citadeled all the time play at long range if you want to tank shots play at close range. Understand your turtle back armor long range with turtle back equals death
@@TbullGaming plunging fire. Depends on what's shooting at you but I'd say past 12-13km then the turtle back citadel is easier to pen than an standard citadel
Cunningham is usually a first pick as an inspiration. Especially if you focus on brawling. You need some accuracy down the range as well. I feel that if you use ciliax as a commander, you need to install aiming mod instead of secondary mod, cause if you have no accuracy/precision mod, you are playing lottery in long range gunfights. I figure that brawling increases the risk to survivability so you need to have capability for long and short range fights and not picking any accuracy modifiers channels you to a mold, which might work in one battle and fail in other. Higher the tier, more tactical flexibility is required imho. So having a brawler in neighbors map and starting in the middle, locks you out until you can find some cover to approach red teams ships. But for the fun factor - maxed out secondaries are a blast especially in lower tiers where most of the fight happens under 10 km range. Anyway nice vid and i´ll be doing some testing myself when the line hits full access - I have the luxury of having both the hipper and ciliax on level 12+ legendary. Regarding the second inspiration - it is a bit of a pickle for hipper. I have used ciliax to increase the damage but vian or kondo might be good, as is madden. But my experience thus far is that accuracy beats faster reload on a BB, and accurate increased damage is something I value.
The way I look at it, if your secondaries are totally maxed out, what is that going to get you? 5k, 10k damage. It can't be that much. You can get that damage with one main gun shell
@@TbullGaming thats is well said. Until we see the detailed AAR we can decide on how much value they actually provide. But still - does that extra km give you even 5-10k ... debatable
@@TbullGaming but perhaps the value isn't necessarily the total damage at the end of the game. Maybe it gives you a better warning of ninjas sneaking up. Or perhaps it finishes off a low health target saving you from firing a main battery salvo. Or maybe it finishes off a low health target that would have killed you during your reload.
Von hippers base trait gives me +13,5% on sec range atm (rank 16 leg 2, max is 15% at leg4). In combination with secondary equipment in slot 1 i have 7.5km sec range on tirpitz and will have 10km on bismarck even without ciliax. And these secondaries hitting targets very good even at 7.5km. Games with 80+ secondary hits are common with tirpitz.
My Bismarck with Ciliax lvl 12 t2 legend Hipper and Haruna both lvl 11 t1 legendary as inspirations gets 11.2 km secondaries I still have a bit to upgrade so that is going to get higher
I still lack both of these guys, but von Muller is up to Rank 11, Legendary 1...soooo, I'll just wait a bit for this line... I also don't have Cunningham yet...grrrr... but, having said that, it has forced me to use Madden in a brawling setup, and I now find I like it...fun playstyle... Good topic, Tbull...keep em coming!
I currently have the tiers III-V and one thing about them is that their 150mm secondaries all fire AP not HE which massively reduces their effectiveness against most targets. Because of that I really don't think it's worth building around them, so I've been running von Hipper with Scheer and Cunningham as inspirations in a hybrid accuracy/survivability build. It's only at VI and VII that I think it might be worth leaning into the secondaries more, but even then I think you need to level both Ciliax and von Hipper up a long way before they really start pulling their weight. It's hard to tell without a detailed results screen but I've been running my Scharnhorst with a full secondary commander build and I'm still not convinced. I'll definitely keep experimenting with it though just because it's fun! Playstyle wise you definitely want to get into midrange as soon as it is safe to do so. Partly to offset the wonky guns but also because their armour setup seem to be designed against shots coming in horizontally and isn't as effective against plunging fire. The Bayern in particular seems hard as nails when played right, even against 16" shells!
@@michaelhorus282 I don't see how. They will ricochet of anything that is angled and they aren't going to perform like the 150mm cruiser guns so if they hit anything with even a moderate amount of armour they will most likely shatter. That's a whole load of hits doing zero damage. Change these to HE and at least you still have a chance to start fires for DOT. PC recently changed the secondaries on every ship in the game to fire HE for exactly that reason
Michael horus That would pretty much require you to citadel with all 9 of them simultaneously which seems spectacularly unlikely... However even if you aren't exaggerating, I still think your statement that AP secondaries do 'a lot more damage in general' can't be justified, because it is so situational. The ratio of citadel hits to shatters/ricochets is going to be what? Several hundred to one at least? I've certainly never seen it happen. Don't you think the extra fire damage from hundreds of HE hits is going to more than compensate for those few situations where AP actually works?
I'm anxious to get your take on these ships. I play em completely different than any other BB.. you nailed it. Mid to close range brawlers. I have tier 3 through 6.. tier 4 an 6 are awesome IMO.. Hipper,full secondary build, Madden inspired..Flank left or right, sneak in close an drop the hammer!!!
TBull, I've been playing around with the 2 dual commanders (Hipper/Ciliax, Madden/Cunningham), and changing inspirations, selecting them for the ships, then press the Square button and tab to ship details, and wow the differences that change!!! For both German and British, some get range over 17km and 6km secondaries. Others give 14km main, and 7-7.5km secondaries. Then some give AP over 12k damage, others around 11k damage. This is looking at Warspite, Gniesenau, QE, KGV, etc. So hard to find the right sweet spot. Would certainly help if we could get the precision specs as well. Because even if the mains lowered to 14km, if they are more accurate, it's more worth losing some range. Argh!!
They way I look at it, the German BB guns are gonna be wild at long range, so lowering the ability to shoot at really long range isn't much of a loss, especially if it results in better accuracy
Similar choice for the British as well, with Cunningham vs Madden, and also determined by the secondaries on each ship, as like the Warspite has better secondaries than the QE for example. And perhaps I think the extra AP perk of Ciliax will work on the British BBs.
Might be just RNG But my initially builds were full secondary build (ciliax ect), got t3 to t6, and found the T3 and T4 main guns highly inaccurate so went for a full accuracy build for them. Found the T5 and T6 guns usable initially so spent more time with secondary build on them, although eventually decided I'm losing too much on my main guns which the secondary didn't make up for imho. So I went for hipper with the T5/T6 but kept the 20% bonus to ship secondary, kinda like a hybrid build for those two tier. Seems to work well for me.
@@TbullGaming Exactly how I feel, the main guns by far do the main percentage of damage. When I get the Bismarck I'll try a full secondary build, if I feel the primary guns aren't accurate enough, I'll swap ciliax out for hipper, although I'll keep the ship upgrades for the secondarys (1st and 4th option if I remember correctly)
My own observation is that battleship commanders tend to follow one of two general categories - shooters and brawlers. The following is based on my own current lineup of British and Japanese battleship commanders, and it really doesn't sound like the Hipper / Ciliax divide is any different.. For me, Cunningham and Takagi are shooters - their traits are oriented towards boosting main armament range and capabilities. Kondo and Madden are brawlers - some traits may boost main armament, but they notably have Porcupine and an array of ways to boost Damage Control and Repair. Which is 'better'? As usual, it all comes down to personal playstyles and ships. I favour Kondo to make my Ishi and Fuso brawl-y, and Takagi to make my Kongo and Nagato shoot-y. Can always switch around for variety and to be less predictable, but these particular combos seem to work best for me. Undoubtedly, there will be some who avow that these combos are the worst imaginable. To each his own. On the value of the Porcupine trait (and the secondary armament), I'm a huge fan of it. All very well to say that your ship is set up for log-range gunnery duels and should never get very close to the enemy, but the enemy almost invariably has other ideas. Given my own very bad habit of focussing down during a fight, having the secondaries effectively operating independent of my guidance has saved my @$$ more than once.
@@TbullGaming Oh, yeah. Having the secondaries start going off can be the very first inkling that I have close-in company. Been a few times they have actually finished the job before I could do anything else.
Nice video. I have both but only up to 10 and one legendary. I have all BB’s you can get and admittedly do not play them as much as my US BBs. What a difference... I like to run Cilliax with Hipper as insp on my Sharn, Gnies, and Turpitz. The others I use Hipper. I assume the Bismarck will be awesome with a pure secondary build but we shall see. What inspirations do you use with Simms?
I’ve been spending promotion orders on hipper for a while in prep for the Bismarck, I’ve got him maxed at legend rank 2, and his skill give roughly 13% range, from what I’ve seen that 13% gives you about a .8 range increase, when he’s fully upgraded I’m guessing it’s a 15% range increase which translates to just under 1km. Combined with Otto which for me is at 6% range with his porcupine skill u can get just over 1km and when his porcupine skill is maxed I’m guessing it’ll go up to about 1.7km with both Otto and hipper maybe a bit more. Combine that with the secondary gun equipment slot which gives 20% range which translates to 1km u get about 2.7km extra range. Hope that helps, I’ll let u know what the exact range is when I have Otto upgraded.
He's an interesting inspiration choice for ship lines that have a lot of consumables. I don't have him very high level, so I haven't experimented with him much yet
Tank build - Cilliax with Brawler, Porcupine and Master Mechanic. Scheer & Jellicoe inspirations. Reduces repair/health cooldown. Adds extra health. Increases regen rate and boosts length of heal. If you're gonna brawl, HP is everything.
I have all the German BB’s cept Bismarck as well as Scharnhorst and Tirpitz. It sucks because, for example, Scharnhorst has waaay more range than the others while gseisenau is the fastest once set up etc. The point is that the German BB’s vary a decent bit between them so it’s hard to set up either of these commanders for all your German BB’s. For example, I might choose a perk or whatever they call them for the commanders that sacrifices main battery range but gives me more damage for the Scharnhorst but wouldn’t dream of that on Big G or Tirpitz. Most of them turn good enough on their own so I wouldn’t waste a perk on better rudder shift but Big G NEEDS rudder help. They all vary so much I wish I could have the same commander set up differently on different ships.
Use ciliax with hipper as an inspiration for all german bb's. I have everyone currently available and lots of trial and error. You need to build them to brawl and short to medium range. With this build my gneisenau is up to 8km secondary range, and if you do the math 11.3km for the bismarck.
I’m partial to von hipper, but I have much more experience with him. I also like porcupine with the German battleships. They have better secondary guns than most bbs. They just tear up any Destroyers that get close. They also add quite a bit of damage to any ship you are in close quarters with. Just the volume of fire coming from all of those secondaries is pretty amazing. They are worthless if you are a base camper though. If you are base camping and your secondaries are going off, you are probably surrounded and losing anyhow.
Wow just wow I have been using cilliax from day one but today after watching this vid I said to myself what the hell I'll give hipper ago and my god what a difference to the ap and he's only rank 7 I was hitting Mexico's and Colorado's for 10000 sometimes 12000 hits can't believe the difference o and I should add I have cilliax as a inspiration
If the German Battleship were all similar then only the player style will decide the choice of the Build and the commander. I think that the scharnhorst is built for close combat as it guns are less efficient in long distance dueling The Tirpitz is good for both I think Tirpitz: von Hipper ( Cunningham, Ciliax) Scharnhorst : Ciliax ( Cunningham, Von Hipper)
. I use Kaiser(3)konig(4) gneansu(6) scarnhorst(6) and tirpitz(7) and each plays diffrent but bottom porcupine stops at 12 percent range while my hipper is 13.5 percent roughly. So i use hipper as inspirations alot for Otto but with these ships some better for others Kaiser I see good use of either commander and konig but the gneansuea is more accurate I've noticed and prefer use of hipper and scarnhorst is either way to in my opinion. But with the tirpitz at current game build range of hipper is preferred
My hipper isnt maxed yet hes at legendary two and I belive hipper at legendary 4 and 16 maxes at 15% percent range. And it's just my thoughts of the ships they vary in use of player theres no solid commander it's just would u rather more secondaries hit or trust more in ur shots but this being said for German commanders they both make good inspirations for each other
True, but porcupine massively boosts the accuracy, which is way more valuable in my opinion. Lots of factors to consider with these two, which is what makes in interesting
Bismarck running a 16+2 Ciliax and 14+1 Von Hipper + secondary Mod 1 will have a range of 11 km. The Bismarck is basically begging to be run as secondary build since it has really long range HE secondaries and has the Hydroacoustic search instead of torpedoes.
It might be pretty strong in that configuration. But the secondaries on their own don't do massive damage, and are relying on starting fires, which is RNG based
I think that Hipper is much better choice for Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Tirpitz because you can actually hit something with main guns (his accuracy perks really help), and still be very dangeorus in short range engagements Thanks to torpedoes.
I agree with Boots. I have the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst. I run Ciliax (11+2) on the Scharn and I run Von Hipper (11+1) on the Gneis. The Gneisenau, for me, was garbage until I had Von Hipper at 11. The guns are incredibly in accurate. Like miss at 6k with Ciliax. yes your Secondaries have great range but it was not worth how terrible the guns were. I've heard a few people say that Wargamming confirmed that the Bismarck will have the 10k Secondary possibility. So 10k might be worth it. I won't sell the Gneisenau because I don't need the money right now, but honestly I found it to be a disappointment. I'd rather have the 9 guns at the smaller caliber with the Scharn than the 6 big guns. Is it funny to citadel other BS's? Yes, yes it is. Did I get more damage on average because I could do that? No, no I did not. Simply because of accuracy. The Gneisenau makes the Scharn and Graf Spee look like an Iowa with a 16+4 Sims. I found myself wishing for the Scharn accuracy. I just finished my grind on it today because I pretty much only play it on my x50% buff.
Yeah that's the word on the street is, Gniesenau wildly inaccurate. Ultimately the main guns are going to do way more than the secondaries ever will, so I think in many, if not all, cases, it's better to create the build with that in mind
@@emperor_pewpew2903 hipper is set up for long range engagements... Using him for anything else is a waste of time. Use ciliax and hipper as an inspiration then get in close so the dispersion doesnt matter.
@@emperor_pewpew2903 to each their own, but i own every german bb available right now and i get excellent results from a pure secondary build. And ciliax is the man for secondary builds. Just wait till the bismarck comes out and my secondaries reach 11km+ while the von hipper commanders are barely scratching 9.
I've come to the same conclusion. Hipper maxed and inspirations that actually help whole game. I need secondaries to 6-7km range anyway. If I'm dd hunting with battleship I might even use Dewey. Saves me more often.
I run Dewey as an inspiration on Madden...the Warspite is a close range brawly ship, like the Germans, and the torpedo visibility has also saved me several times
Not sure how I'm gonna approach this because the bulk of your damage comes from your main guns, so I do anything I can to maximize their potential. However, if a ship has good secondaries it would be a waste not to utilize that extra firepower - or at least give yourself better defence against destroyers.
@@TbullGaming Fear not sir, for packages of 100 promo orders will soon be available for the skull-shattering price of just 10,000 Doubloons. As it stands, I'm leaning towards Von Hipper for the majority of the line - the Tirpitz **might** be an exception.
Hipper is still better. Ciliax requires more skills and performance from players to actually increase the dps output. So yeah T3-5 hipper will be the best choice since it will be easier for people to adjust to the German bbs. Ciliax with t6 and 7 since it improved what German bb good at instead of trying to improve what you're bad.
Cilliax hands down should ALWAYS be your main German Battleship and Battlecruiser commander with Von Hipper and Kondo as Inspiration! Can you do well with Von Hipper? Yes! Is he a good German Battleship Commander? Also Yes! However running anything other than Cilliax in Free to Play completely defeats the Purpose of German Battleships. German Battleships are Brawlers, through and through and running Cilliax insinuates those strengths through and through. If you want to snipe, Play Japanese Battleships! German Battleships are not meant for that!
You know thinking about it the Bismarck’s main guns accuracy was better than the rest of the German bbs. Still bad comparably to other nations, but better than the rest of the line. IMO in the world of reversing Iowa’s.. push in spook dds out of cap spam HE wile closing for secondary distance. Iam fairy certain secondaries can detonate dds. Lol they break models left and right. Ha, have faith in turtle back. I think implementing HE from the main guns before closing to secondary range will increase your damage. Idk if -range for +reloading would be worth it. May just go for reduced fire chance/repair time from scheer.
So Otto as commander, Hipper/Scheer as inspiration. Talents- A good days work, porcupine, firefighter, master mechanic, will to rebuild. Alternatively switching scheer for Charles Madden, and a good days work for brawler.
I’d suggest not to overthink it too much. No such thing as one better than the other, they both make the German BBs awesome. All depends on your play style. Based on my experience with both at level 16 and legendary 2 - Hipper is the campy BB game with great range and 3 heals and Ciliax is the aggressive pushing play and gets you 5 heals. The rest is irrelevant to me. I even prefer the close range captain on my Amagi as I like to play more aggressive and often end up with 100-200 secondary hits. Fun is fun.
15” guns unless close to other battleships rarely will get citadels, so to me the base trait of Ciliax is meh. Hippers perk helps with precision at cost of max speed, and porcupine hurts your ruddershit so As lumbering as kraut bbs can be up close torps will ruin your game if you get caught off guard. That’s why I agree with tbull stay at arms length for the first half then push in. Hipper main here, don’t have ciliax 😅
I think they said in the recent Q&A that they are reducing some of the negatives on the perks, so hopefully the rudder shift wont be as bad. We'll find out soon
I only have Von hipper so cant comment on Otto. The sooner they implement some change to the way we obtain skippers the better. I don’t mind paying actual money for a desired skipper but RNGesus can GTFO. I think the latest batch of notes from gamescon said they were going implement change (tbc) to allow alternative ways of obtaining wanted skippers.
Really dont like hippers increaded risk of fire in the witicha meta. But agree that main guns are mian source of damage. Just love the secondary build bismarch with 18 km main gunz. Think ill hipper grosser kurfurst.
German BBs are pieces of sh!t I have tiers 3 4 5 and they are crappy as hell. Only decent feature I found so far is maneuverability, accuracy is a joke even at close range like 5 - 3 km half of your salvo can miss a perfect broadside target. Ability to score citadels has more to do with rolling the dice than any skill. Everytime I play Bayern for example I find it to be far less effective than any other bb from it's tier. Both Fuso and New Mex have 4 guns more availible to them while QE is an AP monster and cruiser's worst nightmare with remarkable accuracy. Bayern puts nothing on the table. To clarify I use lvl 10 Ciliax with Cunningham on equal lvl as an inspiration.
Really interesting. I only have hipper atm. Would love to see more commander comparisons videos though like this 😎👍
Probably will do some more in the future
Hey Man, I initially I was only watching you on RUclips using my Old Xbox 360 so was unable to Subscribe and like your vids but am a Sub now but tend to like and share it after the fact using my iPad to access RUclips!!!! Really enjoy your vids recommend you to everyone on the Facebook WOWsL site!!! Keep up the great work, and thanks for helping this Old Man at 62 keep up with the younger crowd!!!!
Great to hear, and thanks for the recommendations!
Tbull I just switched to using von Hipper with Madden and Cunningham as inspirations since I got the Tirpitz and it's been working out pretty well for the long and medium game for me. The dispersion of the rounds is pretty good and I'm seeing games about the same as my Iowa with it. He also works pretty well with the tier 3 through 5.
I'm going to focus my promotion orders into von Hipper until he's lvl 11, then I'll get Ciliax up to that lvl for comparison sake
Von hipper for gneisenau ciliax for every other ship. If you want to get citadeled all the time play at long range if you want to tank shots play at close range. Understand your turtle back armor long range with turtle back equals death
How far as long range when it comes to the turtle back?
@@TbullGaming plunging fire. Depends on what's shooting at you but I'd say past 12-13km then the turtle back citadel is easier to pen than an standard citadel
Cunningham is usually a first pick as an inspiration. Especially if you focus on brawling. You need some accuracy down the range as well. I feel that if you use ciliax as a commander, you need to install aiming mod instead of secondary mod, cause if you have no accuracy/precision mod, you are playing lottery in long range gunfights. I figure that brawling increases the risk to survivability so you need to have capability for long and short range fights and not picking any accuracy modifiers channels you to a mold, which might work in one battle and fail in other. Higher the tier, more tactical flexibility is required imho. So having a brawler in neighbors map and starting in the middle, locks you out until you can find some cover to approach red teams ships.
But for the fun factor - maxed out secondaries are a blast especially in lower tiers where most of the fight happens under 10 km range. Anyway nice vid and i´ll be doing some testing myself when the line hits full access - I have the luxury of having both the hipper and ciliax on level 12+ legendary.
Regarding the second inspiration - it is a bit of a pickle for hipper. I have used ciliax to increase the damage but vian or kondo might be good, as is madden. But my experience thus far is that accuracy beats faster reload on a BB, and accurate increased damage is something I value.
The way I look at it, if your secondaries are totally maxed out, what is that going to get you? 5k, 10k damage. It can't be that much. You can get that damage with one main gun shell
@@TbullGaming thats is well said. Until we see the detailed AAR we can decide on how much value they actually provide. But still - does that extra km give you even 5-10k ... debatable
@@TbullGaming but perhaps the value isn't necessarily the total damage at the end of the game. Maybe it gives you a better warning of ninjas sneaking up. Or perhaps it finishes off a low health target saving you from firing a main battery salvo. Or maybe it finishes off a low health target that would have killed you during your reload.
@@rocketfishx3474 yeah that's definitely true. But as a broad comparison I think it's just easier to look at the total damage
Von hippers base trait gives me +13,5% on sec range atm (rank 16 leg 2, max is 15% at leg4). In combination with secondary equipment in slot 1 i have 7.5km sec range on tirpitz and will have 10km on bismarck even without ciliax. And these secondaries hitting targets very good even at 7.5km. Games with 80+ secondary hits are common with tirpitz.
Biz will be a VERY welcome shift on meta for a little bit. Very Enjoyable
I have ciliax in mine and hipper is a inspiration at same rank as yours and my secondaries reach 8.2km
My Bismarck with Ciliax lvl 12 t2 legend Hipper and Haruna both lvl 11 t1 legendary as inspirations gets 11.2 km secondaries I still have a bit to upgrade so that is going to get higher
I still lack both of these guys, but von Muller is up to Rank 11, Legendary 1...soooo, I'll just wait a bit for this line...
I also don't have Cunningham yet...grrrr... but, having said that, it has forced me to use Madden in a brawling setup, and I now find I like it...fun playstyle...
Good topic, Tbull...keep em coming!
Ultimately you can do well on different builds. I had that brawling Iowa video a couple weeks ago that I think proves that.
Hipper vs Ciliax is almost exactly the same as Madden vs Cunningham, guess then it depends most on the ship's weapon setup on who you want to use.
Great video! I'm using Von Hipper on my German BBs, but thinking Ciliax with Cunningham and VH on Bismarck.
Yeah I'm thinking Ciliax on the Bismark as well
Ciliax with Hipper Inspiration! Best Range. Otherwise you dont geht the max secondary Range for this ship.
I currently have the tiers III-V and one thing about them is that their 150mm secondaries all fire AP not HE which massively reduces their effectiveness against most targets. Because of that I really don't think it's worth building around them, so I've been running von Hipper with Scheer and Cunningham as inspirations in a hybrid accuracy/survivability build. It's only at VI and VII that I think it might be worth leaning into the secondaries more, but even then I think you need to level both Ciliax and von Hipper up a long way before they really start pulling their weight. It's hard to tell without a detailed results screen but I've been running my Scharnhorst with a full secondary commander build and I'm still not convinced. I'll definitely keep experimenting with it though just because it's fun!
Playstyle wise you definitely want to get into midrange as soon as it is safe to do so. Partly to offset the wonky guns but also because their armour setup seem to be designed against shots coming in horizontally and isn't as effective against plunging fire. The Bayern in particular seems hard as nails when played right, even against 16" shells!
That's a good point about the AP secondaries, much less effective.
AP secondaries are less useful against destroyers true but they deal a lot more damage in general
@@michaelhorus282 I don't see how. They will ricochet of anything that is angled and they aren't going to perform like the 150mm cruiser guns so if they hit anything with even a moderate amount of armour they will most likely shatter. That's a whole load of hits doing zero damage. Change these to HE and at least you still have a chance to start fires for DOT. PC recently changed the secondaries on every ship in the game to fire HE for exactly that reason
@@flimsysquadron2638 you could get a citadel hit , i once oneshotted a Numberg with ap secondaries of Nagato
Michael horus That would pretty much require you to citadel with all 9 of them simultaneously which seems spectacularly unlikely... However even if you aren't exaggerating, I still think your statement that AP secondaries do 'a lot more damage in general' can't be justified, because it is so situational. The ratio of citadel hits to shatters/ricochets is going to be what? Several hundred to one at least? I've certainly never seen it happen. Don't you think the extra fire damage from hundreds of HE hits is going to more than compensate for those few situations where AP actually works?
I just got Hipper so I can start to experiment with these builds. Thanks Tbull⚓️
Nice, I'll do a full Hipper build video next week at some point
Right on thank you. So far on my Tirpitz I’m liking Hipper and my scharnhorst Ciliax. The German bb line is a very fun line.
I'm anxious to get your take on these ships. I play em completely different than any other BB.. you nailed it. Mid to close range brawlers. I have tier 3 through 6.. tier 4 an 6 are awesome IMO.. Hipper,full secondary build, Madden inspired..Flank left or right, sneak in close an drop the hammer!!!
Sounds awesome, I'm looking forward to these!
I worked out that with the absolute best secondary build, you can get up to approximately 11.6km range on the Bismarck. Not bad :D
Yeah that's pretty solid!
TBull, I've been playing around with the 2 dual commanders (Hipper/Ciliax, Madden/Cunningham), and changing inspirations, selecting them for the ships, then press the Square button and tab to ship details, and wow the differences that change!!! For both German and British, some get range over 17km and 6km secondaries. Others give 14km main, and 7-7.5km secondaries. Then some give AP over 12k damage, others around 11k damage. This is looking at Warspite, Gniesenau, QE, KGV, etc. So hard to find the right sweet spot. Would certainly help if we could get the precision specs as well. Because even if the mains lowered to 14km, if they are more accurate, it's more worth losing some range. Argh!!
FYI, all 4 commanders are at rank 11, and all except Ciliax, are Legendary rank 1
They way I look at it, the German BB guns are gonna be wild at long range, so lowering the ability to shoot at really long range isn't much of a loss, especially if it results in better accuracy
Similar choice for the British as well, with Cunningham vs Madden, and also determined by the secondaries on each ship, as like the Warspite has better secondaries than the QE for example. And perhaps I think the extra AP perk of Ciliax will work on the British BBs.
Yeah Ciliax is worth a look on all the BB lines
Might be just RNG
But my initially builds were full secondary build (ciliax ect), got t3 to t6, and found the T3 and T4 main guns highly inaccurate so went for a full accuracy build for them.
Found the T5 and T6 guns usable initially so spent more time with secondary build on them, although eventually decided I'm losing too much on my main guns which the secondary didn't make up for imho.
So I went for hipper with the T5/T6 but kept the 20% bonus to ship secondary, kinda like a hybrid build for those two tier.
Seems to work well for me.
That's in line with how I expect to feel about them once I get the ships. Main guns are still going to do most of the damage
@@TbullGaming
Exactly how I feel, the main guns by far do the main percentage of damage.
When I get the Bismarck I'll try a full secondary build, if I feel the primary guns aren't accurate enough, I'll swap ciliax out for hipper, although I'll keep the ship upgrades for the secondarys (1st and 4th option if I remember correctly)
My own observation is that battleship commanders tend to follow one of two general categories - shooters and brawlers.
The following is based on my own current lineup of British and Japanese battleship commanders, and it really doesn't sound like the Hipper / Ciliax divide is any different.. For me, Cunningham and Takagi are shooters - their traits are oriented towards boosting main armament range and capabilities. Kondo and Madden are brawlers - some traits may boost main armament, but they notably have Porcupine and an array of ways to boost Damage Control and Repair.
Which is 'better'? As usual, it all comes down to personal playstyles and ships. I favour Kondo to make my Ishi and Fuso brawl-y, and Takagi to make my Kongo and Nagato shoot-y. Can always switch around for variety and to be less predictable, but these particular combos seem to work best for me. Undoubtedly, there will be some who avow that these combos are the worst imaginable. To each his own.
On the value of the Porcupine trait (and the secondary armament), I'm a huge fan of it. All very well to say that your ship is set up for log-range gunnery duels and should never get very close to the enemy, but the enemy almost invariably has other ideas. Given my own very bad habit of focussing down during a fight, having the secondaries effectively operating independent of my guidance has saved my @$$ more than once.
The secondaries kind of act like and alarm telling you someone is creeping up on you, which is nice
@@TbullGaming Oh, yeah. Having the secondaries start going off can be the very first inkling that I have close-in company. Been a few times they have actually finished the job before I could do anything else.
I couldn't comment as i only have the base commander still 😢
Been there done that. Hopefully you get one soon!
same . hes decent
Anytime Man, keep great content coming!!!
do you plan on finishing doing all the commander builds?
So what's your final vote? Ciliax or Hipper? And inspirations? I haven't got the Scharnhorst yet but I'm a click away! 😂
Nice video. I have both but only up to 10 and one legendary. I have all BB’s you can get and admittedly do not play them as much as my US BBs. What a difference... I like to run Cilliax with Hipper as insp on my Sharn, Gnies, and Turpitz. The others I use Hipper. I assume the Bismarck will be awesome with a pure secondary build but we shall see.
What inspirations do you use with Simms?
Don't have Sims, I'd probably run Cunningham and Madden, perhaps ciliax
I’ve been spending promotion orders on hipper for a while in prep for the Bismarck, I’ve got him maxed at legend rank 2, and his skill give roughly 13% range, from what I’ve seen that 13% gives you about a .8 range increase, when he’s fully upgraded I’m guessing it’s a 15% range increase which translates to just under 1km.
Combined with Otto which for me is at 6% range with his porcupine skill u can get just over 1km and when his porcupine skill is maxed I’m guessing it’ll go up to about 1.7km with both Otto and hipper maybe a bit more.
Combine that with the secondary gun equipment slot which gives 20% range which translates to 1km u get about 2.7km extra range.
Hope that helps, I’ll let u know what the exact range is when I have Otto upgraded.
Nice, thanks!
I cant speak for German captains but I'd like to know your thoughts on Tōgō Heihachirō.
He's an interesting inspiration choice for ship lines that have a lot of consumables. I don't have him very high level, so I haven't experimented with him much yet
One of the best inspiration, very useful for all kind of ships
Right now I have ciliax level 16 legendary 1. Secondaries are 7.8 range. Can’t get any better till I get the legendaries up
For which ship, the scharnhorst?
Use hipper as a inspiration for his base boost
I've got the same build also and I use it primarily for tirpitz but I've got level 2 legendary.
I have hipper and Cunningham as inspirations. I use cliax as main commander for all my German battleships
Tank build - Cilliax with Brawler, Porcupine and Master Mechanic. Scheer & Jellicoe inspirations.
Reduces repair/health cooldown. Adds extra health. Increases regen rate and boosts length of heal.
If you're gonna brawl, HP is everything.
Sounds like a solid idea. Unfortunately Im not going to have any promotion orders to put into those two for quite a while
Bismark should definitely fit that mold as well. I'd put scharnhorst on the list too
Sims adds lots of health to teir for high teir to
@@dem0nicempire881 Yes. Simms adds a value, my build adds percentage. at higher levels, percentages are better.
@@TbullGaming Should have points in Jellicoe already. Best Lightning captain.
How can I reduce the dispersion on the Bayern?
Good vid, Keep up the good work🙂👍
Thanks!
I have all the German BB’s cept Bismarck as well as Scharnhorst and Tirpitz. It sucks because, for example, Scharnhorst has waaay more range than the others while gseisenau is the fastest once set up etc. The point is that the German BB’s vary a decent bit between them so it’s hard to set up either of these commanders for all your German BB’s. For example, I might choose a perk or whatever they call them for the commanders that sacrifices main battery range but gives me more damage for the Scharnhorst but wouldn’t dream of that on Big G or Tirpitz. Most of them turn good enough on their own so I wouldn’t waste a perk on better rudder shift but Big G NEEDS rudder help. They all vary so much I wish I could have the same commander set up differently on different ships.
Yeah, I would very much like that feature as well
Probably i'll put Franz in all german battleships exept for the Bismark wich i'll put Otto ( with Franz as inspiration)
I'm thinking maybe Ciliax in Scharnhorst and Bismark. We'll see once I get them both leveled up and can try out different builds
@@TbullGaming probably they are good both, will depend how you'll play them but damn i want to try secondaries so much with 11,5 km 😍😍
Use ciliax with hipper as an inspiration for all german bb's. I have everyone currently available and lots of trial and error. You need to build them to brawl and short to medium range. With this build my gneisenau is up to 8km secondary range, and if you do the math 11.3km for the bismarck.
Allen Perkins i use hipper for lower than genaugenau.
I’m partial to von hipper, but I have much more experience with him. I also like porcupine with the German battleships. They have better secondary guns than most bbs. They just tear up any Destroyers that get close. They also add quite a bit of damage to any ship you are in close quarters with. Just the volume of fire coming from all of those secondaries is pretty amazing. They are worthless if you are a base camper though. If you are base camping and your secondaries are going off, you are probably surrounded and losing anyhow.
😂 true
11.2 km range for Bismarck's secondaries they have a base range of 7.5km
My full build with commander and ship upgrades give 47% range 12% precision 35% dispersion and 20% fire rate
all i have is scheer..... hoping for these guys soon
Generics are rough on battleships, hope you land one soon!
Wow just wow I have been using cilliax from day one but today after watching this vid I said to myself what the hell I'll give hipper ago and my god what a difference to the ap and he's only rank 7 I was hitting Mexico's and Colorado's for 10000 sometimes 12000 hits can't believe the difference o and I should add I have cilliax as a inspiration
If the German Battleship were all similar then only the player style will decide the choice of the Build and the commander.
I think that the scharnhorst is built for close combat as it guns are less efficient in long distance dueling
The Tirpitz is good for both
I think
Tirpitz: von Hipper ( Cunningham, Ciliax)
Scharnhorst : Ciliax ( Cunningham, Von Hipper)
Seems like quite a variety in the BB line. Looking forward to checking them out
. I use Kaiser(3)konig(4) gneansu(6) scarnhorst(6) and tirpitz(7) and each plays diffrent but bottom porcupine stops at 12 percent range while my hipper is 13.5 percent roughly. So i use hipper as inspirations alot for Otto but with these ships some better for others Kaiser I see good use of either commander and konig but the gneansuea is more accurate I've noticed and prefer use of hipper and scarnhorst is either way to in my opinion. But with the tirpitz at current game build range of hipper is preferred
My hipper isnt maxed yet hes at legendary two and I belive hipper at legendary 4 and 16 maxes at 15% percent range. And it's just my thoughts of the ships they vary in use of player theres no solid commander it's just would u rather more secondaries hit or trust more in ur shots but this being said for German commanders they both make good inspirations for each other
True, but porcupine massively boosts the accuracy, which is way more valuable in my opinion. Lots of factors to consider with these two, which is what makes in interesting
Bismarck running a 16+2 Ciliax and 14+1 Von Hipper + secondary Mod 1 will have a range of 11 km. The Bismarck is basically begging to be run as secondary build since it has really long range HE secondaries and has the Hydroacoustic search instead of torpedoes.
It might be pretty strong in that configuration. But the secondaries on their own don't do massive damage, and are relying on starting fires, which is RNG based
@@TbullGaming the secondaries shooting from 11,5 km may hit random destroyers LoL
Just swinging by on the off chance i might learn something from you Tbull
Well I have a personalized lesson for you coming soon 😉
@@TbullGaming ow happy day happy day...
@@TbullGaming im allways up for a good dressing down so i can perspectivly change my ways for the better...
Nice Played Buddy ,nice Danke 🤝🤝👍😁
Thanks!
I think that Hipper is much better choice for Scharnhorst, Gneisenau and Tirpitz because you can actually hit something with main guns (his accuracy perks really help), and still be very dangeorus in short range engagements Thanks to torpedoes.
Yeah, I'm going to experiment with both, but right now I assume I'll go with von Hipper full time following the experiments
I agree with Boots. I have the Gneisenau and the Scharnhorst. I run Ciliax (11+2) on the Scharn and I run Von Hipper (11+1) on the Gneis. The Gneisenau, for me, was garbage until I had Von Hipper at 11. The guns are incredibly in accurate. Like miss at 6k with Ciliax. yes your Secondaries have great range but it was not worth how terrible the guns were. I've heard a few people say that Wargamming confirmed that the Bismarck will have the 10k Secondary possibility. So 10k might be worth it. I won't sell the Gneisenau because I don't need the money right now, but honestly I found it to be a disappointment. I'd rather have the 9 guns at the smaller caliber with the Scharn than the 6 big guns. Is it funny to citadel other BS's? Yes, yes it is. Did I get more damage on average because I could do that? No, no I did not. Simply because of accuracy. The Gneisenau makes the Scharn and Graf Spee look like an Iowa with a 16+4 Sims. I found myself wishing for the Scharn accuracy. I just finished my grind on it today because I pretty much only play it on my x50% buff.
Yeah that's the word on the street is, Gniesenau wildly inaccurate. Ultimately the main guns are going to do way more than the secondaries ever will, so I think in many, if not all, cases, it's better to create the build with that in mind
Hipper all day he is just too OP with cilax inspiration and Cunningham
Thats a waste of time. Turtleback armor is ineffective at long ranges.
@@allenperkins5098 who said anything about using that build for long range fights???????????
@@emperor_pewpew2903 hipper is set up for long range engagements... Using him for anything else is a waste of time. Use ciliax and hipper as an inspiration then get in close so the dispersion doesnt matter.
@@allenperkins5098 hmmm idk man I have seen too many German bbs go down with cilax to agree with you
@@emperor_pewpew2903 to each their own, but i own every german bb available right now and i get excellent results from a pure secondary build. And ciliax is the man for secondary builds. Just wait till the bismarck comes out and my secondaries reach 11km+ while the von hipper commanders are barely scratching 9.
I've come to the same conclusion. Hipper maxed and inspirations that actually help whole game. I need secondaries to 6-7km range anyway. If I'm dd hunting with battleship I might even use Dewey. Saves me more often.
Definitely not a bad choice
I run Dewey as an inspiration on Madden...the Warspite is a close range brawly ship, like the Germans, and the torpedo visibility has also saved me several times
Not sure how I'm gonna approach this because the bulk of your damage comes from your main guns, so I do anything I can to maximize their potential. However, if a ship has good secondaries it would be a waste not to utilize that extra firepower - or at least give yourself better defence against destroyers.
Just wish I had about 200 extra promotion orders stashed away 😂
Like you note, the secondaries are a bonus. Main guns are still getting the bulk of the damage
@@TbullGaming Fear not sir, for packages of 100 promo orders will soon be available for the skull-shattering price of just 10,000 Doubloons.
As it stands, I'm leaning towards Von Hipper for the majority of the line - the Tirpitz **might** be an exception.
Hipper is still better. Ciliax requires more skills and performance from players to actually increase the dps output. So yeah T3-5 hipper will be the best choice since it will be easier for people to adjust to the German bbs. Ciliax with t6 and 7 since it improved what German bb good at instead of trying to improve what you're bad.
I like the sound of that
@@TbullGaming yeah just like kagero guns no matter how many points you put in there it won't be as good as the Fletcher
I like this, can you do this for all other captains lol
Potentially, I'll put it on the idea list
I have hipper rank 16 legendary 2 I feel like I over pen everything I hit
That's just a function of the gun caliber and the armor thickness. Commander build shouldn't affect it
Tbull hope so it’s probably just my horrible rng
Cilliax hands down should ALWAYS be your main German Battleship and Battlecruiser commander with Von Hipper and Kondo as Inspiration! Can you do well with Von Hipper? Yes! Is he a good German Battleship Commander? Also Yes! However running anything other than Cilliax in Free to Play completely defeats the Purpose of German Battleships. German Battleships are Brawlers, through and through and running Cilliax insinuates those strengths through and through. If you want to snipe, Play Japanese Battleships! German Battleships are not meant for that!
You know thinking about it the Bismarck’s main guns accuracy was better than the rest of the German bbs. Still bad comparably to other nations, but better than the rest of the line. IMO in the world of reversing Iowa’s.. push in spook dds out of cap spam HE wile closing for secondary distance. Iam fairy certain secondaries can detonate dds. Lol they break models left and right. Ha, have faith in turtle back. I think implementing HE from the main guns before closing to secondary range will increase your damage. Idk if -range for +reloading would be worth it. May just go for reduced fire chance/repair time from scheer.
It’s already got turtle back so reducing fire chance would make it really tanky.
So Otto as commander, Hipper/Scheer as inspiration. Talents- A good days work, porcupine, firefighter, master mechanic, will to rebuild. Alternatively switching scheer for Charles Madden, and a good days work for brawler.
Lots of good options for these guys. Most lines have a clear cut favorite, but this line doesn't, which makes it interesting
I’d suggest not to overthink it too much. No such thing as one better than the other, they both make the German BBs awesome. All depends on your play style. Based on my experience with both at level 16 and legendary 2 - Hipper is the campy BB game with great range and 3 heals and Ciliax is the aggressive pushing play and gets you 5 heals. The rest is irrelevant to me. I even prefer the close range captain on my Amagi as I like to play more aggressive and often end up with 100-200 secondary hits. Fun is fun.
True
I’ve only gotten the dd
commanders in the German line 😡
That's rough, hope you get some soon!
15” guns unless close to other battleships rarely will get citadels, so to me the base trait of Ciliax is meh. Hippers perk helps with precision at cost of max speed, and porcupine hurts your ruddershit so As lumbering as kraut bbs can be up close torps will ruin your game if you get caught off guard. That’s why I agree with tbull stay at arms length for the first half then push in. Hipper main here, don’t have ciliax 😅
I think they said in the recent Q&A that they are reducing some of the negatives on the perks, so hopefully the rudder shift wont be as bad. We'll find out soon
I was mistaken, Gyrating drillbits reduces maximum speed by 7%, and marksmanship reduces rudder shift by 5%
Cilax has the better kit for how you should play the German tree wail hipper has the better passive
Nice
🍻
I only have Von hipper so cant comment on Otto. The sooner they implement some change to the way we obtain skippers the better. I don’t mind paying actual money for a desired skipper but RNGesus can GTFO. I think the latest batch of notes from gamescon said they were going implement change (tbc) to allow alternative ways of obtaining wanted skippers.
Yeah it's coming, hopefully soon
Really dont like hippers increaded risk of fire in the witicha meta. But agree that main guns are mian source of damage. Just love the secondary build bismarch with 18 km main gunz. Think ill hipper grosser kurfurst.
Omg your so damn Lucky you Hit the torpedo on a fucking destroyer as you where dead and got a kraken😲😬
i like ciliax because i like reloading faster
German BBs are pieces of sh!t I have tiers 3 4 5 and they are crappy as hell. Only decent feature I found so far is maneuverability, accuracy is a joke even at close range like 5 - 3 km half of your salvo can miss a perfect broadside target. Ability to score citadels has more to do with rolling the dice than any skill. Everytime I play Bayern for example I find it to be far less effective than any other bb from it's tier. Both Fuso and New Mex have 4 guns more availible to them while QE is an AP monster and cruiser's worst nightmare with remarkable accuracy. Bayern puts nothing on the table. To clarify I use lvl 10 Ciliax with Cunningham on equal lvl as an inspiration.
They all seem pretty sturdy when I play against them. Haven't played any of them though, so I can't comment beyond that
PAYWALL SHIT STAY AWAY FROM THIS GAME
Why are you looking up RUclips videos of it if it's shit?