I did watch and as always I learned things. I think for us older guys it's a combination of stubborn and delusion . To be honest I own a good amount of equipment from the 90's all the way to current ranging from flea market to boutique stuff. The really good old stuff still sounds great today and the new stuff sounds great, the new stuff can take the power the old stuff would start on fire from.
@@robsorgdrager8477 exactly so to even the odds I figure keep the same power rms . So like say that behemoth in the new cat takes wat like 1500 rms then an even match wud be as many ol' school poofers combined rms 1500 I bet then that newage fatbob wud be pickin' on subs its own size so to speak
2 things: 1. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. 2. A lot of ppl who enjoy loud bass or loud anything probably had better hearing 20+ years ago than they do today.
I like old subs because of how they sound. Im 38 and back the late 90's I had 2 15 JL W6s on a RF 1500 amp and those things hit hard and sounded amazing.
I had an old kicker from 2007 that I really liked. It was the cvx 15that had the 20hz fs. Even though logic tells me that it was not as good as what I have now, memory still tells me that that thing sounded amazing and did 9 million db.
The shop I worked at in 2001 we had a van with six Rockford Fosgate Power DVC's and three 1100a2's. My car I had the Rockford Fosgate HX2's on a Autotek SX 1200D. I hit a 149.8 in the old school style drag racing. Great video
Great vid , I'm diehard old school which is why I'm still running Eclipse titanium SW9122 from 2004 and I knew those would be the last subs I'd ever buy Same with vehicles , if I cant work on it I dont want it , ESPECIALLY today's garb
Nice fellow old timer. I bought my first sub from circuit city in 1998 at age 16. A 10” MTX blue thunder extreme in a sealed box. I loved that sub. It took a beating. Gathering stuff for a build in my vw atm. Between your lowballer and an American bass xr 12”. My sub amp is a d4s jp8.
I was visiting family in Abbeville Louisiana as I did every summer. I want to say 1991, I bought two new thump eight's for $40 bucks, and the guy did door delivery. He sold them through a classified paper. I still have them mounted in 12" PVC pipe, isoberic push-pull ported.
So much has changed over the last 20 years. Subs and amps have evolved along side each other, as power has gotten cheaper subs have evolved to handle the power and we don't need subs to be as efficient.
I remember feeling a truck build at a car show with Hollywood Sound Labs 10" tube speakers. It was essentially a bed install with a hole cut behind the seat to face the cones forward. This was around late 1990's or very early 2000's? It was said that they were powered by 100 watts. (25 watts each, essentially) And that truck hurt your guts it hit so hard!
I really love you videos sir!! Thank you for taking your time to make them. People like myself sure appreciate it... Im an old head myself. Love all audio. All audio lives matter!!!!
I have two of those Kicker 8", I think they are early to mid 1980s. Bought them on eBay as new old stock and they shipped to me with the dust caps fallen off, but there, I glued them back on. Also have two well used freeair 8" with the square Kicker symbol. have two 15" freeair 8ohm subs like new in Fusion boxes and two 10" Kicker XPLs single coil with cast aluminum baskets in sealed truck boxes.
People always tend to remember things to be way better or way worse than they really were. I'm almost 40 now, in the early 2000's, I was getting upset that things just didnt seem to be getting a lot better in car audio. I've commented before on how I just got back into car audio, I would have never thought to go with 8's before but here I am, buying SD X8s lol. Thank you for all the information you put out there, its really helped me get a good grasp on car audio and I've learned a lot.
I've had many people say the same thing. Years ago I had 12 8's in my truck and old timers heard it from far away and came to see how many 15's I had because I was ripping lows like nobodies business. They were in total shock to see 8's.
@@EMFAudio I dont have that kind of room in my Jeep (still need to fit tools and recovery gear), I am hoping to surprise some people when they realize I only have two 8's lol.
I think I know why people feel older subs were louder than modern subs.. Lets see if I can word this so that it makes sense.. The first time we heard a loud bass system it was in comparison to all that we had heard previously.. which was stock speakers so the experience we recall was exceptional whereas years or decades later after hearing waay more car audio sound systems, we become less easily as impressed as we were back during our first few bass systems. What people remember most is HOW THEY FELT during previous experiences.
Would love to hear some of those old 8's vs a skar ix 8. It is entry line and only 40$ brand new and a low power handling sub. I love most all subs. I have had several old school subs from jl wo 10s and 12s to hifonics 18's and cerwin vega's. I grew up on old school audio that is why I love this new tech and how cheap amps are nowa days. I mean a couple thousand watts now is chump change compared to the old school days!!
Remember the Polk momos? Haha. I found an old ad for circuit city stuffed in to a different old magazine and it was like going back in time. Love getting back in to car audio and seeing how much has changed! Thanks for the vids.
Thanks for the video. I have used 8” subs since the early 90’s starting with the o.g. Pyle drivers with the flat back on the magnets. I predict the pyle will be a let down since I had to go to G&S Redline 8s back then because Pyle drivers went down in sound quality soon after. It would be interesting to see how an early JL Audio 8 like the W1s that I have would compare.
It depends on the amp and box. Dude, when I was 16 I had 2 atomic 10s in a super random, self designed bandpass box that i made in woodshop class running on a Coustic 140 watt amp. That shit hit so hard it broke the latch on my trunk...off 140 watts!!! I would never just randomly make a box with just guessing on airspace, measurements and ports again because its just silly now that I know. But damn those things hit hard as hell for 2 10s on 140 watts.
@@ryry7886Both sets were in Sealed boxes @ Rockford specs. I do agree that boxes make or break sub sound, but "tech upgrades" seem to be more focused on profits, than actual upgrades nowadays.
@@Raymo2u well if its the new Fosgate amps that say 800 watts its probably like 300 and the old school 300 watt amps were more like 500. I remeber a couple years ago fosgate took its punch 800 and started putting "2400 watts" onto the amps and turned me off. Ive done some of the punch p3s and they will pound way harder than the DVCs but you need like 800 or 1000 watts on each one. They are power hungry and might be why you arent getting as much bass as you think you should. If you have room you can try a ported bix but thats going to be pretty dang big for 15s. 12s aren't too bad though. those dvcs were good subs though so im not knocking them.
@@Raymo2u Maybe im tripping. You said p3s? i was thinking t3s. I usually do the p3s ported too but you're right, the quality on Fosgate isnt the same like it used to be.
Exactly what I was looking for. Just getting back into car audio after a 20 year hiatus, putting a system in my SUV, and so much has changed. I was wondering how modern subs stack up against old school... trying to figure out how much junk I need in my trunk.... Thank you.
Also, another question in regards to sensitivity... when modelling, on modern subwoofers optimized for smaller boxes (low QTS, high BL) I notice a very sharp resonance at tuning as expected when placed in a larger enclosure. What is interesting though is that there is a midrange SPL droop between this resonance before recovering again around 70--100Hz (looks like a "ski slope"). I am assuming there is strong electromechanic above the critical tuning. Does this manifest itself as strongly in real life vs. what sims that us the small-signal T-S parameters such as Hornresp or WinISD say? I've noticed this when modelling highly motored subs (BL > 25), even in the boxes on the small side.
Hi EMF, really appreciate your videos as they approach the problem from a technical perspective with a real-world outlook... not many channels doing that so thank you. On the topic of that particular video; it is apparent that given the low frequencies of bass and exceptionally long 1/4 wavelengths the loading on the drivers and the ports completely changes based on cabin size, geometry (for example, getting an audible change when you crack windows open for instance). Do you think in half-space or free-space that the modelling holds up though? At the end of the day, I think box modelling is accurate under small signals but I suspect another factor is that T-S specs change drastically at high power, Re/BL constantly changing over frequencies. I'm not sure WinISD or Bassbox can do this but Hornresp has an inductance model that tries to approximate this...
@@recon440 In free space it's far more likely to have some accuracy, half space would depend on output levels. Things do change drastically when power is applied, and WinISD and Bassbox are going off of small signal only so that effects results, drastically. Modeling is based on small signal and no environment, so if you change either of those things the model isn't accurate anymore, nor should they expect to be.
I had a single old paper cone 12" JBL 150w RMS that I got used. It had 95 DB sensitivity. Ran it off of 80w at 4 ohms in a bandpass box. Tightest, cleanest bass I've ever heard. Havent matched it yet
Why is that though? I wonder why 142db yesterday is today's 133db. Perhaps things are more accurate today then a few years ago. But I wonder what had changed.
"Loud" is relative. What we thought was loud in the 90's, isn't that impressive today. I had some JL 12W4 subs in '96 that were great for their time. 11mm of xmax. In 2019 you can get entry level 12s with 13mm of xmax for under $100/ea, and flagship subs can have 40mm or more of xmax, blowing away what we had available back in the day.
Yeaaaah... The optimus radio shack subs? I had 2 of them and 2 of their 12 pa cabinets. I really liked em. The PAs were extremely reliable even though they were tuned a little high.
I had a pair of Orion dvc 8s. They were purchased for about 60 bucks a piece. That was in 94. They pounded in a 7th order box. I wish I still had them.
One of the "old school" subs that always sticks out in my mind is the MMATS - Juggernought from around the year 2001 or so, also the Adire Audio - Brahma. Back in that era, I had a couple of 12" Pioneer IMPPs with the diamonds molded into the cone/dustcap and I swear they were louder in a sealed box with 300 RMS than my 10" American Bass XFL in a ported box with 1700 RMS is now. Even so, it doesn't really matter too much to me, I just enjoy the look on my son's face when he hears my current setup! :)
That Juggernaut was a DD 9500 series with a different label on it. The Brahma was a great sounding sub, I had the first 4 in existence and had them 2 months before the rest of the world.
@@jacobwebb8818 it was a 99 I think.. The hatch had a piece that could be took out.. I modified it to fit the speakers and reinforced it to hold both the boxes as well..
New subs are WAAAAYYYY better. Those old speakers do bring back memories, especially the kicker comp c-12....unless its an F-12. Remember kicker had different subs of the same thing for sealed or ported?
"all the modern sensors read lower than old ones" that was my thought the entire time. i understand the nostalgia entirely, but back in the day getting 140 was an accomplishment that seems to be rather mundane today. numbers just don't lie. sadly, while most things where better in the 80's - 90's, speakers just weren't. you can't even argue manufacturing quality really. by the mid to late 80's cheap foreign manufacturing was already a thing with the handful of stragglers left alive caving to it in the 90's.
Ok old bass head here lol i had 4 12" Rockford series 1s and 5 coustic 360 amps one each per sub and one for 2 6x9s and2 5 1/4s mtx 3 way crossover and a alpine cd. All in a mid 80s capri i can't remember the db but i did a lot of db drags. And actually won a few lol
On limited power though, say 150-200W RMS, would the older subs will be louder than the modern ones? (Allowing for large enough enclosures to make use of sensitivity, that is).
If you're comparing to a sub that is also around that power handling it would come down to a case by case basis. If you're talking about say, a 500 RMS sub you might be better off with the older one. Now when you factor in the enclosure size, ALL subs will respond the same way with a larger box.
I have had my infinity 12 inch subs single voice coil and ive put a alpine mvr1570 they are from 92 if i remeber right and they take all of 1500 watts and they came off the basket so i took poli glue for glass an glued them back on and they still rock
How about amplifiers? Curious to see if the 'cheaters' would stack up against the amps today! There is an inconsistency with older subs compared to new ones. The old high end can never compete with new high end...but in SQ applications the difference aren't much. In fact they say you won't need a newer sub to compete in that type of competition. For example, the good ol Cerwin-Vega(!) Stroker subs. They have been around since the 70s, yet they are still one of the baddest subs when it came to the 90s where it hit car audio. But now, you can get low and loud with less than half of the $$$ you had to spend. The reason that I want to point out on this is the fact there are not much brands in the market at the old school times, and people won't mess with the cheap stuff because of the money spent(It is better to spend more that lasts). Add the fact that nowadays brands had came to age and are considered higher on the tier lists. Brands like RF are no longer holding that spot because of cheaper, better, easier alternatives because of that. Back at that time, metal processing and materials is nowhere near the stuff we have today; manufacturing them would take time and tons of money, and would not sell well. Now, considering the competition have similar stuff, probably from same factories.
I hrd of urban audio wrks? I hv 1 ten hooked up to 150 (about) in my truck cuz noting else wud fit in that shallow a box. Anyways I was knocked out by how gd it sounds! I didn't know wat size to make the box other than just to fit under the seat. Since I had no info other than it being a ten, figure id be 4ohms
back in the early 2000's i had 2 ppi pro 10's in a sealed box powered by a ppi pc2600 and i've been chasing that sound quality ever since the day they were stolen.
Those were ppi pros were awesome subs, but my best combo was a us amps usa300 and 2 soundstream reference ss12's. I recently bought a usa400 off ebay but the ss12's are real hard to come by nowadays, same with those ppi subs
I loved the ones with the 4 inch voicecoils, got two of them one bad coil in one and the other was perfect ended up blowing them both and traded them to a guy for next to nothing i should of kept them and rebuilt them they were fucking awesome
Yes..it would be nice if you also included some of today's entry level and budget subs into the mix. But..this is a great video! I have been into car audio for 30yrs..and the subs just were not that good back in the days!
I was never a hard core bass head back in the day......I gravitated to 10"s. I can't remember when the infinity perfects came out......but I swore they were the nicest sounding subs ever.....I still have my perfect 10.....and it still sounds better than anything I have found to date
I have a 93 crewin Vega 15 I just put in my truck on 400 watt the other day a friend gave me from his home entertainment system, and that thing still shake my truck like crazy
The old subs did do what they were designed to do but like you stated the materials are not like today's subs. For example I always ran Cerwin Vega XLC series I believe that was the model stamp way back in the 80's and the red surround would always deteriorate over a period of time.
All the Cerwin Vega's of that era had those red surrounds and they really didn't last at all, maybe 2 years. When the W surround Vega series came out those held up much better but that was late 90's.
EMF Audio the Vega series had spider separating issues at the shop I worked at . They came back for warranty swaps. But they played loud and aggressive
The sensitivity is going to be louder if comparing all other components like throw and motor size. Hey you want loud and accurate lookup atomicspeakers I had one hit 167db on little watts
what's your opinion of old school Diamond Audio Mack daddy 12s. the cones are like a honeycomb material they have rubber surrounds. I have a set that I would like to recone at sometime just for fun.
eric dudley I have the diamond d1 10s on a diamond d6 450.2 and I abolutely love them! I believe they are the 2008 model but they are 200 watts each and they are insanely loud! They are also one of the cleanest sounding subs Ive ever heard, if someone were to sit in my car they would not believe I have 2 10s on 450 watts, I also have the diamond m6 10s which also hit crazy hard for their power! Diamond definitely makes very high quality products!
@@cjon24s69 yes they do I think my 12s are about 10 yrs old and they still hit hard I had them in a slot ported box on 750 watts man they pounded. I took them out and put them on the shelf for later I now have punch p3s their not as loud as the diamonds😎 watch the video of my car on Hifivega's channel it's titled "loudest prius on RUclips "
I'm not sue many people think sensitivity scales evenly across different speaker models. On a 1 watt system, the most sensitive sub will be the loudest. Older systems were not as likely to play as low and the higher frequency bass is more detectable to the human ear and a louder modern sub that is playing on a lower frequency at the same volume will sound quieter. It is the perception that counts, not what "should" sound louder.
Wow, I had one if them Pyle's and had a set of purple urban audio 8s and they sounded awesome my pap had them and a 600 watt urban amp in a s10 and I loved listening to that thing ,he gave them to me and I had them on a house recover and loved them things
I had 2 mtx 12s in a closed box they were 28yr old hit harder than my friend's newer pioneer in a sealed box differents in cars mtx were in a SUV the pioneer were in a mustang convertible
Old subs are cool because that's how most of us started and got into it but when 20 years ago a 400$ sub.. about 750 today's money weighed maybe 20 lbs..and had a 3in coil with maybe a 2 spider suspension and 2in total xmax.. granted it wanted a 1000 watts but today ur getting a 4in coil maybe 5 spiders, 3to4in excursion and burps of 7k
I love old and new subs. Many of the old subs get loud easier until they run out of excursion it thermal capacity. By this i mean if the old sub was rated 250 RMS it would get louder than a new sub with 250 watts input to it. The new sub will absorb more power thermally and probably get louder still but now you need bigger amplifier, more batteries and bigger alternator. So it's not exactly a"fair comparison. While subwoofers became less efficient per watt input amplifiers have become more efficient.
Exactly. There is alot more going on than just bigger magnets and bigger surrounds. Personally I think the old subs sound better and most new subs get loud but are sloppy.
@@ASSOpid I like 15-45 hz most these days. I have multiple 6.5's in my car also running 60-200 hz if I'm not listening to digital bass or decaf I still have solid bass. All my subs are older. TC Sounds Eclipse Crystal Mobile Cerwin Vega. SPL bass from 50-70hz gives me a headache and isn't enjoyable to me when over 140db. I don't compete so what do i know 😂
I think if you compared two subs rated for 250 RMS from then and now, you might be surprised. The fact is, we don't really have much with that low of power rating anymore so you wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Think of it like saying a 1,000 watt sub and a 3,000 watt sub and the 1,000 watt sub will do better on 1,000 watts.
@@EMFAudio I'm not sure if there's any subs made now rated that low unless 8" or less maybe Example my 12" Vega series by Certain Vega rated 400rms. Compare that against1000 was or so rms modern subwoofer. Give them each 250 watts at 30hz and see which is louder. Yeah the Vega will tear its own spider with 800-1000 watts, but at 250 watts regardless of the efficiency number it's likely more efficient that the heavy cone coil and spider combos now made. I'm not advocating everybody run old school subs, or that they are better even. I don't run my Vegas anymore. They can't get as loud as a modern sub that is given thousands of watts. I'm just saying with the little power they handle safely they often are louder than heavy duty new subs. With that said the Vegas series doesn't get very loud over 50 hz like a new sub with stuff super spider suspension and more motor force.
@@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS SPL is great for showing off and competitons but try using these new subs with actual music. Good quality music. Not mp3's or Spotify. I also got tired of the "thump" . It was great when I was a kid but as my music taste have changed so has my systems. I still use my JL 12w3's running off Audison amps.
If you look on my channel you will see a few months ago i got a whole bunch of old school 90s subwoofers. i still have like 10 to 15 left over i still have no idea what to do with them. lol
Hi, I am from Ukraine, so sorry for my English. Have you ever use the Audiobahn AW1000x driver? What did you think about this driver, or a brand general. Did they show the real parameters for drivers?
I've never used that specific sub but everything Audiobahn was a lie. Their specs were not accurate and poorly built, they were also cheap. They went out of business, came back with an inventory of old equipment then got busted shipping crystal meth to Australia (the biggest bust in history) so it's safe to say they won't be doing anything else again.
If I went back in time to the early 1990s, I would design and engineer a subwoofer with a dual spider, stitched tinsels, 500w rms, cast aluminum basket, 91db sensitivity for 12 inches, and dual voice coils and amplifiers to go along with it. I would call them voodoo audio deafness subwoofers 400 dollars today's equivalent each, proudly made in USA.
You can go off of sensitivity alone if it's accurate and you're measuring in an anechoic chamber across the usable bandwidth. Also, if you know Qes, Vas, and Fs, you know efficiency, so bringing up Qts is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter as much if you were talking about manufacturer specs but you said you measured them. In that case, yes, sensitivity tells you how loud with equal power while staying within Xmax.
Perhaps Qtc would matter because you'd get resonant peaks but not Qts. Also obviously higher Qes means faster roll off all else equal which is why inefficient speakers can "slam" because they end up with Qtcs well above 1 but fairly low Fs which can give huge low freq peaks. Of course, it'll be anything but flat, but cheap fun is worth it sometimes for the ringing.
Meanwhile, in the real world.... ruclips.net/video/VN_qgJkum20/видео.html Qts is absolutely relevant in SPL. When the objective is to have the highest peak of efficiency, a high Qts will just end up having a more flat response in any enclosure. Additionally, a high Qts indicates a weaker motor, which isn't as effective when pressure is applied to either side of the cone, making less output.
High Qts is not going to give a flatter response. Qtc determines the LF roll-off, and a Qtc of 1/sqrt(2) or ~.7071 gives the lowest F3 with no peaks in the response. Of course the Bessel (~.577) gives earlier roll-off but slower, and critically damped even more. You may think Qts has anything to do with motor force, LF, and efficiency because Qes is the dominant component of Qts, where Qts = 1/Qms + 1/Qes. Qes is directly related to motor strength and always much lower than Qms so that would mean Qts and efficiency/motor strength would be related by transitive property. This is as real as the real world gets: it's physics. The last part is that Qtc cannot be lower than Qts because the air spring reduces driver damping. So any driver with a Qts higher than 1/sqrt(2) can never achieve a flat, totally accurate response in the frequency domain. You did also suggest how far you could move the driver with your hand related to Xmax but Xmax is derived from the winding height and gap height, where excursion is linear only so long as the entire gap has coil within it (for an overhung VC). Again, I agree with you video completely as far as the actual results you'd get with new vs old speakers. I'm being technical because it's fun, not to argue with your conclusion, which is correct.
You mentioned a lot of real things, still ignoring reality. The reality is the Qtc is determined by the enclosure which if adjusted to get the "perfect" Qtc, may not be optimal for mechanical limits or even remotely efficient. Yes Qes has to do with motor force but the Qms has to be adjusted in the design for the goal and the suspension has to be designed to not self destruct with high motor force. The only thing I suggested with Xmax was it's capable of displacing more air, I didn't say it was measured by hand or by it's total ability to move by hand. That was a visual demonstration of suspension limits, dumbed down.
In 1998 I had a box with two 10inch DVC Cerwin-Vega! XL series subs that hit EXTREMELY hard for 10's back then. They got fried after my little brother used my car for his senior prom and decided to turn up the gain on my amp. 🤬🤬
It sounds like you said electronics today are less expensive and better made than 20 years ago and you get what you pay for. Well, no durrrr :P Great video. Eagerly awaiting part 2!
Really speaker and subwoofer technology hasn't changed much for decades. Material cost and the ability to power more powerful subs is really what's responsible for the jump in build quality. In my experience depending on the subs of course old vs new doesn't matter. In home audio a set of klipsch speakers from the 40's still perform very well and share the same technology with speakers today.
Depending what you're calling "technology" things have changed quite a bit. The principles haven't changed, but materials and how materials are used have. Material cost has nothing to do with build quality, cost is based on an agreed value. Remember in consideration of what you're listening to, the enclosure is a factor. While something decades old in their intended enclosure may still sound very good, it might take up twice the space as something modern to get the same result.
@@EMFAudio yeah very true. And yeah i ment the basic fundamentals of how a subwoofer works. Definitely in home audio its had leaps and bounds in performance and design as far as hi-fi is concerned. But for car audio and p.a it just seems like the same ole same ole designs and performance. But ill definitely subscribe and educate myself on this channel. I also prefer old school. Right im running 2 slash series 500's on 2 m3 mojo's tuned 33hz in a civic
@@EMFAudio so cabin air space depends on frequency? Have you ever done a vid on testing that like running a sub in a box and going through frequencies to see what a cars cabin is tuned to?
@@druskoprecisionsound6250 It's not just cabin air space, it's also body shape, distance from the sub to the meter, how much deadener you have, interior materials (like cloth vs leather), etc. I haven't done a video like that, partly because things like that also change with SPL. The more things in the car flex, it can change the frequency. So at 140 dB it might be one frequency but 150 or 160 might be another.
@@EMFAudio Thanks for the info. I know a bit about most of this and its all common sense mostly. I have built huge systems and small. This area is dead in the car audio field. everyone just buys wall mart 12's in sealed trunk boxes. But hey it works but I like big and multiple subs. I once got a taste of 150db and was hooked lol. im working on a 01 walled beetle with two cv old school 15" stokers on a skar rp-3500.1d hope it sounds good. keep the vids coming they are great.
Look up the audiobahn line that banged hard also with jl audio subs and kicker square solobarics l5 in 2000s that i had yea audiobahn immortal subwoofer and amps
Been patiently waiting for this lol.. once again as I always say you are a genius at marketing 🤣🤣🤣!!!!! I have had subs from every era since the late 90’s and for people to say technology and quality hasn’t got better they need to upgrade their system lol.. i now have 2 Sundown X18v2’s and put them beside a Lanzar Heritage 12 rated for 1000w rms it is down right hilarious the size and built comparison. Even next to my Rockford T2 15’s the ones with the aluminum silver dust cap and red plastic cone and stupid ass basket/motor cover! 🤣🤣 I would love a set of them Emagerd 18’s or Yolo musicals but the pocket book won’t allow for it just yet.
@@EMFAudio will you replace the sold out stuff or am i just to slow And thanks for the nep info i thought that was true cant wait to see the van your building flex and subwoofer excursion im obsessed with the two
It's hilarious to see comments that are clear they didn't watch the video. SRSLY though, watch the whole thing.
EMF Audio great video
I'll be waiting for part #2 next Tuesday 🤙🤙🤙.
I did watch and as always I learned things. I think for us older guys it's a combination of stubborn and delusion . To be honest I own a good amount of equipment from the 90's all the way to current ranging from flea market to boutique stuff. The really good old stuff still sounds great today and the new stuff sounds great, the new stuff can take the power the old stuff would start on fire from.
i wish you would of had a old jl8w6 to compare to the new stuff
@@robsorgdrager8477 exactly so to even the odds I figure keep the same power rms . So like say that behemoth in the new cat takes wat like 1500 rms then an even match wud be as many ol' school poofers combined rms 1500 I bet then that newage fatbob wud be pickin' on subs its own size so to speak
2 things: 1. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. 2. A lot of ppl who enjoy loud bass or loud anything probably had better hearing 20+ years ago than they do today.
A lot like a fishing story. It gets to be a bigger fish with time.
bass doesnt effect hearing
These videos help me unwind after a long day at work. They are informative as well as entertaining. Keep up the good work my good man.
That Kicker came out of an old Kicker SubStation.
I like old subs because of how they sound. Im 38 and back the late 90's I had 2 15 JL W6s on a RF 1500 amp and those things hit hard and sounded amazing.
I love hanging on to old speakers. They're like trophies of hard work
I had an old kicker from 2007 that I really liked. It was the cvx 15that had the 20hz fs.
Even though logic tells me that it was not as good as what I have now, memory still tells me that that thing sounded amazing and did 9 million db.
The shop I worked at in 2001 we had a van with six Rockford Fosgate Power DVC's and three 1100a2's. My car I had the Rockford Fosgate HX2's on a Autotek SX 1200D. I hit a 149.8 in the old school style drag racing. Great video
Great vid , I'm diehard old school which is why I'm still running Eclipse titanium SW9122 from 2004 and I knew those would be the last subs I'd ever buy
Same with vehicles , if I cant work on it I dont want it , ESPECIALLY today's garb
Nice fellow old timer. I bought my first sub from circuit city in 1998 at age 16. A 10” MTX blue thunder extreme in a sealed box. I loved that sub. It took a beating. Gathering stuff for a build in my vw atm. Between your lowballer and an American bass xr 12”. My sub amp is a d4s jp8.
I was visiting family in Abbeville Louisiana as I did every summer. I want to say 1991, I bought two new thump eight's for $40 bucks, and the guy did door delivery. He sold them through a classified paper. I still have them mounted in 12" PVC pipe, isoberic push-pull ported.
So much has changed over the last 20 years. Subs and amps have evolved along side each other, as power has gotten cheaper subs have evolved to handle the power and we don't need subs to be as efficient.
You: are old subs better than new one's
Me: don't make me regret loosing my old EVs and JL audio's
I remember feeling a truck build at a car show with Hollywood Sound Labs 10" tube speakers. It was essentially a bed install with a hole cut behind the seat to face the cones forward. This was around late 1990's or very early 2000's? It was said that they were powered by 100 watts. (25 watts each, essentially) And that truck hurt your guts it hit so hard!
I really love you videos sir!! Thank you for taking your time to make them. People like myself sure appreciate it... Im an old head myself. Love all audio. All audio lives matter!!!!
I have two of those Kicker 8", I think they are early to mid 1980s. Bought them on eBay as new old stock and they shipped to me with the dust caps fallen off, but there, I glued them back on. Also have two well used freeair 8" with the square Kicker symbol. have two 15" freeair 8ohm subs like new in Fusion boxes and two 10" Kicker XPLs single coil with cast aluminum baskets in sealed truck boxes.
People always tend to remember things to be way better or way worse than they really were. I'm almost 40 now, in the early 2000's, I was getting upset that things just didnt seem to be getting a lot better in car audio. I've commented before on how I just got back into car audio, I would have never thought to go with 8's before but here I am, buying SD X8s lol. Thank you for all the information you put out there, its really helped me get a good grasp on car audio and I've learned a lot.
I've had many people say the same thing. Years ago I had 12 8's in my truck and old timers heard it from far away and came to see how many 15's I had because I was ripping lows like nobodies business. They were in total shock to see 8's.
@@EMFAudio I dont have that kind of room in my Jeep (still need to fit tools and recovery gear), I am hoping to surprise some people when they realize I only have two 8's lol.
I was just talking about this today. The evolution of car audio is mind blowing.
I think I know why people feel older subs were louder than modern subs.. Lets see if I can word this so that it makes sense.. The first time we heard a loud bass system it was in comparison to all that we had heard previously.. which was stock speakers so the experience we recall was exceptional whereas years or decades later after hearing waay more car audio sound systems, we become less easily as impressed as we were back during our first few bass systems. What people remember most is HOW THEY FELT during previous experiences.
Would love to hear some of those old 8's vs a skar ix 8. It is entry line and only 40$ brand new and a low power handling sub. I love most all subs. I have had several old school subs from jl wo 10s and 12s to hifonics 18's and cerwin vega's. I grew up on old school audio that is why I love this new tech and how cheap amps are nowa days. I mean a couple thousand watts now is chump change compared to the old school days!!
Jon Doe i had 2 12 cerwin vegas in my bmw
the fact they still exist and working is a win, in and of itself lol
My Rockford fosgate series 1 had massive excursion and I wish I had kept it.
Remember the Polk momos? Haha. I found an old ad for circuit city stuffed in to a different old magazine and it was like going back in time. Love getting back in to car audio and seeing how much has changed! Thanks for the vids.
I miss my 8" MTX Terminator subs. Those things were amazing.
Thanks for the video. I have used 8” subs since the early 90’s starting with the o.g. Pyle drivers with the flat back on the magnets. I predict the pyle will be a let down since I had to go to G&S Redline 8s back then because Pyle drivers went down in sound quality soon after. It would be interesting to see how an early JL Audio 8 like the W1s that I have would compare.
I feel like my old Rockford Punches (Punch DVC Limited Editions) hit much harder and sounded better at 300w RMS than my new P3's at 900w RMS...
It depends on the amp and box. Dude, when I was 16 I had 2 atomic 10s in a super random, self designed bandpass box that i made in woodshop class running on a Coustic 140 watt amp. That shit hit so hard it broke the latch on my trunk...off 140 watts!!! I would never just randomly make a box with just guessing on airspace, measurements and ports again because its just silly now that I know. But damn those things hit hard as hell for 2 10s on 140 watts.
@@ryry7886Both sets were in Sealed boxes @ Rockford specs. I do agree that boxes make or break sub sound, but "tech upgrades" seem to be more focused on profits, than actual upgrades nowadays.
@@Raymo2u well if its the new Fosgate amps that say 800 watts its probably like 300 and the old school 300 watt amps were more like 500. I remeber a couple years ago fosgate took its punch 800 and started putting "2400 watts" onto the amps and turned me off. Ive done some of the punch p3s and they will pound way harder than the DVCs but you need like 800 or 1000 watts on each one. They are power hungry and might be why you arent getting as much bass as you think you should. If you have room you can try a ported bix but thats going to be pretty dang big for 15s. 12s aren't too bad though. those dvcs were good subs though so im not knocking them.
@@Raymo2u Maybe im tripping. You said p3s? i was thinking t3s. I usually do the p3s ported too but you're right, the quality on Fosgate isnt the same like it used to be.
Exactly what I was looking for. Just getting back into car audio after a 20 year hiatus, putting a system in my SUV, and so much has changed. I was wondering how modern subs stack up against old school... trying to figure out how much junk I need in my trunk.... Thank you.
Also, another question in regards to sensitivity... when modelling, on modern subwoofers optimized for smaller boxes (low QTS, high BL) I notice a very sharp resonance at tuning as expected when placed in a larger enclosure. What is interesting though is that there is a midrange SPL droop between this resonance before recovering again around 70--100Hz (looks like a "ski slope"). I am assuming there is strong electromechanic above the critical tuning. Does this manifest itself as strongly in real life vs. what sims that us the small-signal T-S parameters such as Hornresp or WinISD say? I've noticed this when modelling highly motored subs (BL > 25), even in the boxes on the small side.
I think this will answer your question ruclips.net/video/VCYP7CRT5No/видео.html
Hi EMF, really appreciate your videos as they approach the problem from a technical perspective with a real-world outlook... not many channels doing that so thank you. On the topic of that particular video; it is apparent that given the low frequencies of bass and exceptionally long 1/4 wavelengths the loading on the drivers and the ports completely changes based on cabin size, geometry (for example, getting an audible change when you crack windows open for instance). Do you think in half-space or free-space that the modelling holds up though? At the end of the day, I think box modelling is accurate under small signals but I suspect another factor is that T-S specs change drastically at high power, Re/BL constantly changing over frequencies. I'm not sure WinISD or Bassbox can do this but Hornresp has an inductance model that tries to approximate this...
@@recon440 In free space it's far more likely to have some accuracy, half space would depend on output levels. Things do change drastically when power is applied, and WinISD and Bassbox are going off of small signal only so that effects results, drastically. Modeling is based on small signal and no environment, so if you change either of those things the model isn't accurate anymore, nor should they expect to be.
Already knew the answer, but couldn’t pass up tech stuff Tuesday!
Same
I had a single old paper cone 12" JBL 150w RMS that I got used. It had 95 DB sensitivity. Ran it off of 80w at 4 ohms in a bandpass box. Tightest, cleanest bass I've ever heard. Havent matched it yet
I see an old exite 8 back there I still have 4 of those 10 inch version.
Year of science in technology have changed the game good work in explaining time.
The mic meter thing makes sense, my old hatch in high school hit 142db, now I swear my car is louder these days but the shops term lab said 133 135db.
Why is that though? I wonder why 142db yesterday is today's 133db. Perhaps things are more accurate today then a few years ago. But I wonder what had changed.
@@u9Nails because you could fuck with the meters back then and they were shit anyways
Meters back then were mics. Now, the meters are pressure-based.
I remember the older subs being more sensitive and not needing 10 million watts to be "loud"..
Did you watch the video?
"Loud" is relative. What we thought was loud in the 90's, isn't that impressive today. I had some JL 12W4 subs in '96 that were great for their time. 11mm of xmax. In 2019 you can get entry level 12s with 13mm of xmax for under $100/ea, and flagship subs can have 40mm or more of xmax, blowing away what we had available back in the day.
9 million DB 😂 that made me laugh out loud lol.
Yeah 9 million - 7 is still a lot!!!! Lol
@@MTGEDH yesir it is
Funky Pups will do that on 10 watts.
That flux capacitor must have driven that too hard!
I'm pretty sure the whole universe would explode.
I would like to see the results of the Optimus subwoofers if you had some.
I did own some in the mid 90's, I sold them in the mid 90's too.
Yeaaaah... The optimus radio shack subs? I had 2 of them and 2 of their 12 pa cabinets. I really liked em. The PAs were extremely reliable even though they were tuned a little high.
@@hashtaglobotomy2655 I had two of the 10's, I don't recall if they were made for cars but they were the car style.
I had some Optimus 18s and sold them right away.
They wanted a HUGE box.
@@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS all subs then wanted a big box but I bet those 18's wanted 6-8 cu ft sealed
I had a pair of Orion dvc 8s.
They were purchased for about 60 bucks a piece.
That was in 94.
They pounded in a 7th order box.
I wish I still had them.
Damm u... I was proud of my 153 back in 97...lol ran hcca 225 on 4 15 inch hifonics olympians..in a trunk!!!..lol good to know tho..great vid buddy
One of the "old school" subs that always sticks out in my mind is the MMATS - Juggernought from around the year 2001 or so, also the Adire Audio - Brahma. Back in that era, I had a couple of 12" Pioneer IMPPs with the diamonds molded into the cone/dustcap and I swear they were louder in a sealed box with 300 RMS than my 10" American Bass XFL in a ported box with 1700 RMS is now. Even so, it doesn't really matter too much to me, I just enjoy the look on my son's face when he hears my current setup! :)
That Juggernaut was a DD 9500 series with a different label on it. The Brahma was a great sounding sub, I had the first 4 in existence and had them 2 months before the rest of the world.
The kicker is a 1990 model year if I remember correctly. I had two of the same model but they were the 15” version.
I had a pair of kicker free air 6x8 in the deck of a Nissan 2000 nx.. 250 si amp ..
@@jacobwebb8818 it was a 99 I think.. The hatch had a piece that could be took out.. I modified it to fit the speakers and reinforced it to hold both the boxes as well..
Really dig how technical you get bro, keep on keeping on!
Sounding better and being louder are two completely different things. But I like the old school gear and the presentation here.
New subs are WAAAAYYYY better. Those old speakers do bring back memories, especially the kicker comp c-12....unless its an F-12.
Remember kicker had different subs of the same thing for sealed or ported?
Should have reviewed some Rockford fosgate power hx2s
Awesome, glad to see your back at the tech stuff tues. Liked and commented.
"all the modern sensors read lower than old ones" that was my thought the entire time. i understand the nostalgia entirely, but back in the day getting 140 was an accomplishment that seems to be rather mundane today. numbers just don't lie. sadly, while most things where better in the 80's - 90's, speakers just weren't. you can't even argue manufacturing quality really. by the mid to late 80's cheap foreign manufacturing was already a thing with the handful of stragglers left alive caving to it in the 90's.
Yo thank you man watching this made me relax for some reason
Rockford power hx2 still puts a lot new subs to shame!
And where's the Funkypup for comparison? O wait there's nothing comparable to mighty Funkypup!
Ok old bass head here lol i had 4 12" Rockford series 1s and 5 coustic 360 amps one each per sub and one for 2 6x9s and2 5 1/4s mtx 3 way crossover and a alpine cd. All in a mid 80s capri i can't remember the db but i did a lot of db drags. And actually won a few lol
On limited power though, say 150-200W RMS, would the older subs will be louder than the modern ones? (Allowing for large enough enclosures to make use of sensitivity, that is).
If you're comparing to a sub that is also around that power handling it would come down to a case by case basis. If you're talking about say, a 500 RMS sub you might be better off with the older one. Now when you factor in the enclosure size, ALL subs will respond the same way with a larger box.
I have had my infinity 12 inch subs single voice coil and ive put a alpine mvr1570 they are from 92 if i remeber right and they take all of 1500 watts and they came off the basket so i took poli glue for glass an glued them back on and they still rock
But your comparing old school entry level subs to a not so entry level modern sub
Thats why he busted out the old Orion HCCA at the end
I did, if you actually watch the video.
Watch the full video before you type anything false on here.
How about amplifiers? Curious to see if the 'cheaters' would stack up against the amps today!
There is an inconsistency with older subs compared to new ones. The old high end can never compete with new high end...but in SQ applications the difference aren't much. In fact they say you won't need a newer sub to compete in that type of competition.
For example, the good ol Cerwin-Vega(!) Stroker subs. They have been around since the 70s, yet they are still one of the baddest subs when it came to the 90s where it hit car audio. But now, you can get low and loud with less than half of the $$$ you had to spend.
The reason that I want to point out on this is the fact there are not much brands in the market at the old school times, and people won't mess with the cheap stuff because of the money spent(It is better to spend more that lasts). Add the fact that nowadays brands had came to age and are considered higher on the tier lists. Brands like RF are no longer holding that spot because of cheaper, better, easier alternatives because of that.
Back at that time, metal processing and materials is nowhere near the stuff we have today; manufacturing them would take time and tons of money, and would not sell well. Now, considering the competition have similar stuff, probably from same factories.
yea hrd dat def a lota factors affecting the odds. Id figure in a lota nostalgia for the ol' school fer us ol' duDes, If I cud add that iN as well.
I hrd of urban audio wrks? I hv 1 ten hooked up to 150 (about) in my truck cuz noting else wud fit in that shallow a box. Anyways I was knocked out by how gd it sounds! I didn't know wat size to make the box other than just to fit under the seat. Since I had no info other than it being a ten, figure id be 4ohms
back in the early 2000's i had 2 ppi pro 10's in a sealed box powered by a ppi pc2600 and i've been chasing that sound quality ever since the day they were stolen.
Those were ppi pros were awesome subs, but my best combo was a us amps usa300 and 2 soundstream reference ss12's. I recently bought a usa400 off ebay but the ss12's are real hard to come by nowadays, same with those ppi subs
Those really were some great subs, built well, sounded incredible.
Still have my rockford hx2 12"s from back in the day 🔊🔊🔊
I've got two punch hes. They're the baby hx2s.
I have 2 hx210s in my traverse it it still slams
I loved the ones with the 4 inch voicecoils, got two of them one bad coil in one and the other was perfect ended up blowing them both and traded them to a guy for next to nothing i should of kept them and rebuilt them they were fucking awesome
My old Memphis 12's and Rockford Fosgate 15's use to hit wayyyy harder than anything else I ever had
my pye are from the 70s and since 1999 have live a hard life of music and still are mint
This is a great video can’t wait to see part 2
Someone has got to pull out some superblues
defiantly , later years Pyramid fabricated the SPC 700 WATT 12's and 15's , they were top notch !!!
Yes..it would be nice if you also included some of today's entry level and budget subs into the mix.
But..this is a great video! I have been into car audio for 30yrs..and the subs just were not that good back in the days!
The Lowballer IS entry level and a budget sub.
I got some old MTX road thunder 2 10” they kick ass for being almost thirty years old
I was never a hard core bass head back in the day......I gravitated to 10"s. I can't remember when the infinity perfects came out......but I swore they were the nicest sounding subs ever.....I still have my perfect 10.....and it still sounds better than anything I have found to date
Image dynamics before the buyout were pretty awesome sounding speakers
@@bondovwvw i always wanted to try out those image dynamics. To go way back, i also wanted a pair of ads 10"s
My favorite subwoofers are the lanzar max st subwoofers and the orion subwoofers and the audiobahn subwoofers
I have old subs that are busted, similar to what your showing. I'd like to upgrade them to the newer materials and keep the old dust cap.
ruclips.net/video/sNCAa1i_J3E/видео.html and ruclips.net/video/wrHWvd9t6n0/видео.html I've done it twice. It is possible, sometimes.
Is an old sidekick better than the iPhone 14? Maybe subjectively, but not realistically. Same applies here.
Do you remember the bumper 10s. 😊
I have a 93 crewin Vega 15 I just put in my truck on 400 watt the other day a friend gave me from his home entertainment system, and that thing still shake my truck like crazy
The old subs did do what they were designed to do but like you stated the materials are not like today's subs. For example I always ran Cerwin Vega XLC series I believe that was the model stamp way back in the 80's and the red surround would always deteriorate over a period of time.
All the Cerwin Vega's of that era had those red surrounds and they really didn't last at all, maybe 2 years. When the W surround Vega series came out those held up much better but that was late 90's.
EMF Audio the Vega series had spider separating issues at the shop I worked at . They came back for warranty swaps. But they played loud and aggressive
The sensitivity is going to be louder if comparing all other components like throw and motor size. Hey you want loud and accurate lookup atomicspeakers I had one hit 167db on little watts
That's not how that works, I did a video on that. Nobody cares about port scores either, I did a video on that too.
what's your opinion of old school Diamond Audio Mack daddy 12s. the cones are like a honeycomb material they have rubber surrounds. I have a set that I would like to recone at sometime just for fun.
I have absolutely no experience with those subs, not really familiar with them at all.
eric dudley I have the diamond d1 10s on a diamond d6 450.2 and I abolutely love them! I believe they are the 2008 model but they are 200 watts each and they are insanely loud! They are also one of the cleanest sounding subs Ive ever heard, if someone were to sit in my car they would not believe I have 2 10s on 450 watts, I also have the diamond m6 10s which also hit crazy hard for their power! Diamond definitely makes very high quality products!
@@cjon24s69 yes they do I think my 12s are about 10 yrs old and they still hit hard I had them in a slot ported box on 750 watts man they pounded. I took them out and put them on the shelf for later I now have punch p3s their not as loud as the diamonds😎 watch the video of my car on Hifivega's channel it's titled "loudest prius on RUclips "
I'm not sue many people think sensitivity scales evenly across different speaker models. On a 1 watt system, the most sensitive sub will be the loudest. Older systems were not as likely to play as low and the higher frequency bass is more detectable to the human ear and a louder modern sub that is playing on a lower frequency at the same volume will sound quieter. It is the perception that counts, not what "should" sound louder.
Wow, I had one if them Pyle's and had a set of purple urban audio 8s and they sounded awesome my pap had them and a 600 watt urban amp in a s10 and I loved listening to that thing ,he gave them to me and I had them on a house recover and loved them things
I was told that you are the most knowledgeable person when it comes to subwoofer design by Scott. Salute to you. And cannot wait to see his CRX run.
Dude love those old speakers!!!!
I had 2 mtx 12s in a closed box they were 28yr old hit harder than my friend's newer pioneer in a sealed box differents in cars mtx were in a SUV the pioneer were in a mustang convertible
Old subs are cool because that's how most of us started and got into it but when 20 years ago a 400$ sub.. about 750 today's money weighed maybe 20 lbs..and had a 3in coil with maybe a 2 spider suspension and 2in total xmax.. granted it wanted a 1000 watts but today ur getting a 4in coil maybe 5 spiders, 3to4in excursion and burps of 7k
the nostalgia is real
I love old and new subs.
Many of the old subs get loud easier until they run out of excursion it thermal capacity. By this i mean if the old sub was rated 250 RMS it would get louder than a new sub with 250 watts input to it.
The new sub will absorb more power thermally and probably get louder still but now you need bigger amplifier, more batteries and bigger alternator.
So it's not exactly a"fair comparison.
While subwoofers became less efficient per watt input amplifiers have become more efficient.
Exactly. There is alot more going on than just bigger magnets and bigger surrounds. Personally I think the old subs sound better and most new subs get loud but are sloppy.
@@ASSOpid I like 15-45 hz most these days.
I have multiple 6.5's in my car also running 60-200 hz if I'm not listening to digital bass or decaf I still have solid bass.
All my subs are older.
TC Sounds
Eclipse
Crystal Mobile
Cerwin Vega.
SPL bass from 50-70hz gives me a headache and isn't enjoyable to me when over 140db.
I don't compete so what do i know 😂
I think if you compared two subs rated for 250 RMS from then and now, you might be surprised. The fact is, we don't really have much with that low of power rating anymore so you wouldn't be making a valid comparison. Think of it like saying a 1,000 watt sub and a 3,000 watt sub and the 1,000 watt sub will do better on 1,000 watts.
@@EMFAudio I'm not sure if there's any subs made now rated that low unless 8" or less maybe
Example my 12" Vega series by Certain Vega rated 400rms.
Compare that against1000 was or so rms modern subwoofer.
Give them each 250 watts at 30hz and see which is louder.
Yeah the Vega will tear its own spider with 800-1000 watts, but at 250 watts regardless of the efficiency number it's likely more efficient that the heavy cone coil and spider combos now made.
I'm not advocating everybody run old school subs, or that they are better even.
I don't run my Vegas anymore.
They can't get as loud as a modern sub that is given thousands of watts.
I'm just saying with the little power they handle safely they often are louder than heavy duty new subs.
With that said the Vegas series doesn't get very loud over 50 hz like a new sub with stuff super spider suspension and more motor force.
@@BARBELLS-AND-BUDS SPL is great for showing off and competitons but try using these new subs with actual music. Good quality music. Not mp3's or Spotify. I also got tired of the "thump" . It was great when I was a kid but as my music taste have changed so has my systems. I still use my JL 12w3's running off Audison amps.
If you look on my channel you will see a few months ago i got a whole bunch of old school 90s subwoofers. i still have like 10 to 15 left over i still have no idea what to do with them. lol
Nickword 1 you can send me 2 mixed match 12😂😂I need em bad after I sold my skars
Hi, I am from Ukraine, so sorry for my English. Have you ever use the Audiobahn AW1000x driver? What did you think about this driver, or a brand general. Did they show the real parameters for drivers?
I've never used that specific sub but everything Audiobahn was a lie. Their specs were not accurate and poorly built, they were also cheap. They went out of business, came back with an inventory of old equipment then got busted shipping crystal meth to Australia (the biggest bust in history) so it's safe to say they won't be doing anything else again.
I have 11 orion 2nt 12's and 4 of the 2nt 15's. These are my favorite subs of all time. I need to do a comparison with them.
If I went back in time to the early 1990s, I would design and engineer a subwoofer with a dual spider, stitched tinsels, 500w rms, cast aluminum basket, 91db sensitivity for 12 inches, and dual voice coils and amplifiers to go along with it. I would call them voodoo audio deafness subwoofers 400 dollars today's equivalent each, proudly made in USA.
You can go off of sensitivity alone if it's accurate and you're measuring in an anechoic chamber across the usable bandwidth. Also, if you know Qes, Vas, and Fs, you know efficiency, so bringing up Qts is irrelevant. It wouldn't matter as much if you were talking about manufacturer specs but you said you measured them. In that case, yes, sensitivity tells you how loud with equal power while staying within Xmax.
Perhaps Qtc would matter because you'd get resonant peaks but not Qts. Also obviously higher Qes means faster roll off all else equal which is why inefficient speakers can "slam" because they end up with Qtcs well above 1 but fairly low Fs which can give huge low freq peaks. Of course, it'll be anything but flat, but cheap fun is worth it sometimes for the ringing.
All this said I completely agree with your conclusion lmao. If you want efficient, get pro drivers in huge ported boxes.
Meanwhile, in the real world.... ruclips.net/video/VN_qgJkum20/видео.html Qts is absolutely relevant in SPL. When the objective is to have the highest peak of efficiency, a high Qts will just end up having a more flat response in any enclosure. Additionally, a high Qts indicates a weaker motor, which isn't as effective when pressure is applied to either side of the cone, making less output.
High Qts is not going to give a flatter response. Qtc determines the LF roll-off, and a Qtc of 1/sqrt(2) or ~.7071 gives the lowest F3 with no peaks in the response. Of course the Bessel (~.577) gives earlier roll-off but slower, and critically damped even more. You may think Qts has anything to do with motor force, LF, and efficiency because Qes is the dominant component of Qts, where Qts = 1/Qms + 1/Qes. Qes is directly related to motor strength and always much lower than Qms so that would mean Qts and efficiency/motor strength would be related by transitive property. This is as real as the real world gets: it's physics.
The last part is that Qtc cannot be lower than Qts because the air spring reduces driver damping. So any driver with a Qts higher than 1/sqrt(2) can never achieve a flat, totally accurate response in the frequency domain.
You did also suggest how far you could move the driver with your hand related to Xmax but Xmax is derived from the winding height and gap height, where excursion is linear only so long as the entire gap has coil within it (for an overhung VC).
Again, I agree with you video completely as far as the actual results you'd get with new vs old speakers. I'm being technical because it's fun, not to argue with your conclusion, which is correct.
You mentioned a lot of real things, still ignoring reality. The reality is the Qtc is determined by the enclosure which if adjusted to get the "perfect" Qtc, may not be optimal for mechanical limits or even remotely efficient. Yes Qes has to do with motor force but the Qms has to be adjusted in the design for the goal and the suspension has to be designed to not self destruct with high motor force. The only thing I suggested with Xmax was it's capable of displacing more air, I didn't say it was measured by hand or by it's total ability to move by hand. That was a visual demonstration of suspension limits, dumbed down.
Love your fuckin info. The knowledge you throw out their piece by piece is beautiful!!!
In 1998 I had a box with two 10inch DVC Cerwin-Vega! XL series subs that hit EXTREMELY hard for 10's back then. They got fried after my little brother used my car for his senior prom and decided to turn up the gain on my amp. 🤬🤬
It sounds like you said electronics today are less expensive and better made than 20 years ago and you get what you pay for. Well, no durrrr :P
Great video. Eagerly awaiting part 2!
There are a few subs and amps I wished I would have kept.
that Kicker looks like it came from one of their pre-built enclosures, based on the motor
Really speaker and subwoofer technology hasn't changed much for decades. Material cost and the ability to power more powerful subs is really what's responsible for the jump in build quality. In my experience depending on the subs of course old vs new doesn't matter. In home audio a set of klipsch speakers from the 40's still perform very well and share the same technology with speakers today.
Depending what you're calling "technology" things have changed quite a bit. The principles haven't changed, but materials and how materials are used have. Material cost has nothing to do with build quality, cost is based on an agreed value. Remember in consideration of what you're listening to, the enclosure is a factor. While something decades old in their intended enclosure may still sound very good, it might take up twice the space as something modern to get the same result.
@@EMFAudio yeah very true. And yeah i ment the basic fundamentals of how a subwoofer works. Definitely in home audio its had leaps and bounds in performance and design as far as hi-fi is concerned. But for car audio and p.a it just seems like the same ole same ole designs and performance. But ill definitely subscribe and educate myself on this channel. I also prefer old school. Right im running 2 slash series 500's on 2 m3 mojo's tuned 33hz in a civic
9:30 "but wait there's more". Famous quote from the movie Scream.
that kicker is out of one of the boxes they sold
Love tech stuff Tuesday, thanks!
That kicker is from a "substation" box, 1996 ish, that pyle is after the buyout, china made.
I saw something on that sub that said Made in USA, perhaps lying to make sales or old info?
EMF Audio good possibility, the logo on the dust cap is a dead give away. 😭
Wasn't 60hz the key frequency back in the day for hitting the numbers?
It's always been vehicle dependent.
@@EMFAudio so cabin air space depends on frequency? Have you ever done a vid on testing that like running a sub in a box and going through frequencies to see what a cars cabin is tuned to?
@@druskoprecisionsound6250 It's not just cabin air space, it's also body shape, distance from the sub to the meter, how much deadener you have, interior materials (like cloth vs leather), etc. I haven't done a video like that, partly because things like that also change with SPL. The more things in the car flex, it can change the frequency. So at 140 dB it might be one frequency but 150 or 160 might be another.
@@EMFAudio Thanks for the info. I know a bit about most of this and its all common sense mostly. I have built huge systems and small. This area is dead in the car audio field. everyone just buys wall mart 12's in sealed trunk boxes. But hey it works but I like big and multiple subs. I once got a taste of 150db and was hooked lol. im working on a 01 walled beetle with two cv old school 15" stokers on a skar rp-3500.1d hope it sounds good. keep the vids coming they are great.
Look up the audiobahn line that banged hard also with jl audio subs and kicker square solobarics l5 in 2000s that i had yea audiobahn immortal subwoofer and amps
Been patiently waiting for this lol.. once again as I always say you are a genius at marketing 🤣🤣🤣!!!!! I have had subs from every era since the late 90’s and for people to say technology and quality hasn’t got better they need to upgrade their system lol.. i now have 2 Sundown X18v2’s and put them beside a Lanzar Heritage 12 rated for 1000w rms it is down right hilarious the size and built comparison. Even next to my Rockford T2 15’s the ones with the aluminum silver dust cap and red plastic cone and stupid ass basket/motor cover! 🤣🤣 I would love a set of them Emagerd 18’s or Yolo musicals but the pocket book won’t allow for it just yet.
Do you guys sell in canada?
We ship to Canada.
Hey brother why are ya emrage subs not available at all in 12 i check everyday i may have spelled it wrong
The motor is too big. The 15" model the motor barely fits in the cut out.
@@EMFAudio will you replace the sold out stuff or am i just to slow
And thanks for the nep info i thought that was true cant wait to see the van your building flex and subwoofer excursion im obsessed with the two
@@kidsavage86 Banhammers are going to a v2, Ermagerd v2's we have to find a machine shop that will make them, YOLO v2's I'm gauging demand.
@@EMFAudio are the American bass hd killers I want to move up
@@kidsavage86 The Banhammer v2 will definitely be that.