Home Theater MISCONCEPTION of the LFE Channel - What You DON'T Know
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- What if I told you your AVR likely does NOT support 5.2.4, 7.2.4 or 9.2.6 like you thought it did. In this video, we dive into the MISCONCEPTION of the LFE channel.
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These numbers have always referred to the amount of dedicated audio track channels. Unfortunately, bad marketing and the spread of incorrect information across the internet have made it harder to understand, now more than ever... Great video by the way, keep spreading the knowledge! 😉👍
Once had a argument with a BestBuy employee claiming they had an 11.1 (or some other ridiculous #, before Atmos was a thing, mind you) sound bar because it had 11 drivers... 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ I had to LOL and walk away.
Awesome video! Thanks for looking into it! Completely makes sense! Felt cool to be on the video!! Haha you were right! I guess I have to wait and see if my amp gets an update for dts x pro!
Thank you for the great discussion on it.
Great video Michael. I agree with your assessment. I think people like to refer to the .2 so people know how many subs they have. I personally do but wonder as multiple LFE channels become more common over time if we will be forced to use correct terminology.
Does adding a MiniDSP to a system upgrade it to a multisub system? :P
@@BradleyAshley Nope, while it does allow you separate EQ for each sub, all of the subs off the MiniDSP are still receiving the same signal.
7.1.4 speaker setup for me. And yep, I've known movies have always been mixed with 1 LFE channel (and home receivers have been marketed as .2 for having some independent level control). IMO a new spec for separate LFE with DTS:X pro won't be that clear an advantage, since sub-bass has less localization (and the whole reason for a "subwoofer crawl" is finding the sweet spot where your subwoofer(s) fill the room). I'm also not sure how pervasive DTS:X pro will be as Dolby has really made inroads with being the popular 4K format (with Dolby Vision and Atmos....there's still a tiny amount of UHD discs that are IMAX Enhanced for example).
Also, when it comes to these new 3D audio formats: they're meant to be backwards compatible with old standards (that was an array of speakers with 5.1 channels). Now an audio engineer mixes a "bed" that's 10 channels (up to 7.1.2), and then there are 118 meta-data tracks for audio objects (which can then localize a sound from this bed to any seperate speaker config that's in the particular theater).
I like how this video is like sitting next to you having a conversation talking about it and not just telling us keep them coming youthman 👌
Great explanation for all of this. It is kind of confusing, especially when you start getting the receivers or mini DSP's to start tuning multiple subs separately. But I agree, it's all one LFE signal, just different time alignment and tuning in most cases
Per your explanation, I now have a 7.1.2 system 😁
feels bad, right? I hope the home theater community can find a simple way to describe our setups and still be accurate
I think the confusion is there is a difference between format and configuration.
7.1.2 is your format but your configuration might be a 7.4.2
@@Youthman that’s a fair way to explain it. I like it 👍
Hi Youthman, I am just about to go for a true 7.2.4 atmos.
The projector will be the JVC-NX9 8k & the AV will be the Marantz SR8015 (which is not yet available in Australia)
And the screen will be a 16:9 160" screen, the projector & Amp are the only three items locked in. (Ceiling height for the media room is 3m so a 140" screen may fit better). I was thinking Klipsch for the speakers in a setup similar yours; the behind the screen horns with other complimetary in wall speakers with Corner L & R front Subs. I would also love to see your recommendations for an all in wall set up using klipsch speakers. I'm not sure on the behind screen set up as my room is 5.6 metres long by 5.5 metres wide. There are so many in wall options, pro reference, reference THX ultra 2??? So confusing🤯🤯🤯
Yes you are correct in this explanation. But as everyone knows when someone says they have a 7.2.4 or any other configuration, the .1 or .2 we are saying how many subs we have. At least that’s what I have always meant.
That's how I have always thought of it. I just assume that's the number of subs they are using on that .1 channel.
@@VitalYFZ glad I'm not the only one thinking it!
Thanks for setting the record straight! Yep, the whole point of individual, independent sub outs is to provide flexibility for integrating dual subs into a system, which can be tricky to get right. Especially if the subs are NOT equidistant from the MLP, that’s where something like SubEQ HT comes in very handy. For AVR’s with summed dual outputs(basically a y-splitter internally..) it’s probably best to have the subs equidistant from the MLP to make integration easier. If not, you’ll have to experiment with the phase knob to get both subs in phase. The LFE signal is still only a single, mono channel, regardless of the number of subs being used. Keep the video’s coming, really enjoying your channel!
I'm currently rockin a 6.1 system. Boston Acoustic VR1s and SVS Ultra center and surrounds. I love my Harman/Kardon amp and receiver. I am using 3 subwoofers, 2 Polk audio PSW-10s and an SVS PB-2000. I'm just waiting for the Denon AVR-x3700 to be available and then it'll be 7.2.4. Can't wait! I scored some Yamaha in-ceiling speakers with directional tweeters for my Atmos speakers. After that, my next upgrade will be moving from a 65" 4K TV to a 4K projector. I really want something bigger so I'm thinking 150"!
Pioneer Elite SC-75 9.2 powering (7.2 setup) NHT Classic Four Tower (bi-amped), NHT ThreeC Center Channel, NHT 12" + NHT 10" subs with 4 - iC4-ARC 2-way 8 inch ceiling speakers.
Appreciate what your doing.
Hey youthman you’re awesome keep doing you ! Also I have a 5.1.2 atmos setup
Appreciate the kind words
@youthman - thanks for the info. I find it interesting as the Yamaha 3080 processes the 2x LFE outs as “mirror”, or left and right, or front and rear. I always assumed it was reading that data from the single LFE track and that the single LFE track was carrying an “atmos like” layer that provided “LRFB”’data. When running atmos tracks and the LFE set to front /back, LFE effects are distinctly shifting based on source of action. I guess that means some sort of DSP in the Yamaha is doing some cool work to make that happen. I really appreciate the breakdown, the more we understand about our setups the more we can optimize and enhance our sound. Great vid.
Thanks Adam, glad you enjoyed the video
My set up is a 7.1.4 with klipsch speakers, 2 klipsch subs, a Denon receiver, 2 Emotiva Amps, a power conditioner, 5040ub Epson projector to a acoustic silver ticket screen.
Great video Michael! It certainly cleared up my thinking. So, after watching I have to say my systems are - Basement Theater - 7.1 (looking for ceiling speakers to get the 7.1.4), and - Family Room - 5.1.2. I did upgrade my Basement Theater from an AVR to the Marantz AV-8805 (partially from watching you and your Marantz Pre/Pro), so am looking forward to DTS:X Pro for two sub channels since I have 2 SVS PB-2000s; of course no comparison to you MoNsTeR Subs. Lastly, before your video, I was telling people that I had a 7.2.x and a 5.2.x. Thanks for clearing that up. Phil is a wonderful resource to be able to reach out to.
Nice explanation of how to describe a setup based on the source channels supported. It gets confusing when signals are split. I have a 5.1 processor but I split the surrounds into side and rear and have no sub. Technically I have to call my setup a 5.0 despite having 7 speakers.
As soon as an AVR has two subwoofer outputs which both receive a different signal, then it is legit to feature it as a .2 (like 7.2) and so forth. An AVR always specifies what it can control, not what the content holds.
If I watch a 5.1 movie and I got a 11.2.4 system, then it is possible for all speakers and subwoofers to output sound.
Just as well if I watch stereo music, the subwoofer will also be included if I have one.
If the AVR is able to generate two independent signals for the subwoofer, this can greatly increase the base accurary for the room. And it does not matter if there is only one LFE signal, two, or if the base comes from the other speakers.
Technical I have a 5.1.2 setup but am running dual subwoofers. I found anything beyond that got me some diminishing returns.
I'm experimenting with 2 Yamaha receivers. I just added an RV-V A6A. The other is an older RX-V 2600 unit. I'm running basically a 16.9.4 system. I use 2 plate amp powered Subs and 3 more subs powered by 2 Carver M400 power amps. There are 3 more self powered subs.in resonance nodes Total potential power is around 2000 watts. I'm just finishing the wiring and there's a buttload of it.
The testing and YAPO self measuring should be interesting to see!
5.1.2 / 7.1, depending on if I'm listening to ATMOS/DTS-X my receiver uses the 5.1.2 "height channels" as the .2. With regular DOLBY and DTS it runs 7.1 utilizing the back surround speakers.
I’m running 9.2 all Martin Logan electrostats and 4 Sb16 ultra subs that are dual stacked front right and left rear. I have 2 LFE out channel on my processor that can be independently adjust but the LFE signal is a .1 mono signal audio mix that is sent to the subs.
Good man, love how you humbly approached this. Much respect.
But I don't think the question wasn't answered. There can only be one standardized definition for the ".2" nomenclature. However, you said the AVR nomenclature refers to quantity of processed sub outputs (still from a single content source), while the content/Dolby nomenclature refers to the number of discrete content channels (independent of sub outputs). So which contradicting nomenclature is the official standardized definition? There should be verbiage/proof in the standards spec (AES?).
The proper expression is 7.1.4, 9.1.6 etc, as those numbers do refer to the channel outputs. People sometimes use 7.2.4, 9.4.6 as it is easier to describe how many speakers and subs you have. This isn’t proper, but it is certainly common.
Hello Everyone!!
There's so many things to cover, and I don't know where to start.
I own a somewhat dated Pioneer Elite VSX-LX301 A/R Receiver, and currently running 5.1.2.
In order for DTX-X Pro to happend, the movie industries have to start recording thier movies in that format now.
Next, those public theaters e.g. AMC/IMAX have to install a second sub, alongwith a power amplifier, plus intergrade the DTX-X Pro feature into thier equipment area.
Furthermore, get a new Blu-ray DVD player to pass through that signal, and have our A/V receiver to actually decode it.
Trust me, that will take some time for us to get there. Personally, I will not worry about that format, because we still even today, have people don't fully mastered the very basic of Dolby Laboratory's speakers placement.
I'm referring to setting the correct speaker size, distance, HPF, and most importantly the calibration setups.
We need to get that done first, before worrying about a new surround format.
In your video, you mentioned two manufacturer receivers that gives a true 5.2.4, or 7.2 or 9.2, but if you don't have neither one, its always 5.1, 7.1, and etc.
Don't let those numbers of rca suberwoofer jacks fool you, because its always summed out as one signal, not two independent signals.
I figured out what's happening. Channels is the # of speakers, which is why the AVR companies list the sub outs as .2, however Phill Jones is saying that there is only one LFE signal in current home theater audio codecs, regardless of the # of sub outs. Youthman keeps saying "channels" when he means to say "signal". Hope this helps.
I think about this topic 5 years ago when i purchase amplifier with two subwoofer out but this is just a same share signal for clean connection 😉
I am glad I come across this video because this is honestly something I thought about myself. I am using 2 subs and have been for a few years anyway. I have sat and thought albeit there are 2 outputs on my AVR (STR DN1080), when I go into the level settings there is only one SW level in there. Another thing I have thought is I have never ever heard the bass frequencies move from one sub to the other..not that it would be easy to hear if it did. But I am aware it is obviously just the same channel. I also have thought that if the "5." refers to my other speakers as separate channels how can it actually be 5.2?
BTW I am currently using a 5.1.2 set up here. not an actual 5.2.2 :) ....well the sticker is still on my AVR and it actually says its 7.2..... I have suspected for a long time... that isn't accurate. Anyway I need to get myself a 5.4.1 AVR..my room isn't huge but I still think it would be a lot better. I definitely don't have room for surround back because my TV is 65 inch and my couch is almost touching the wall. I don't want to be any closer to my TV than I already am. So I went with the 5.1 and 2 atmos. I had the surround back set up in my previous home as I had the space...but back then atmos didn't exist :) Anyway thumbs up very interesting video.
Mine is 5.2.2, all B&W powered by a Denon AVR-X4500h.
My system is Onkyo TX-Nr696 7.2 THX Dolby Atmos with 2 subwoofer outputs. It's only connected to the Subwoofer (No Speakers) but using Vizio M51 Soundbar to the TV for Dolby Atmos. LFE will always be at 120 HZ, thanks for explaining that to me. The subwoofer plays very good when it was 80 HZ but some subwoofers will malfunction or sound bad if LFE on receiver crossover is Below 120. I also used the dual RCA filtered connection, using Subwoofer crossover at 40 to 50 HZ that was hitting deeper harder bass, got violent. Now i will set Onkyo to LFE Off and Sub crossover at 50 HZ (it can't be turned off)
5.1.4 setup for me. I am about to go to two sub-woofers and replace my old Paradigm sub. Having some questions with how to set them up since right now the one is wireless, but I have decided to keep the wireless and chain the two new subs since I would have a hard time getting the LFE wire (or wires) to the subs.
I have a 7.1.4, got a Marantz SR7010 "no need to upgrade yet" and a Emotive BSX 700 for the surrounds, ,and my sub is a SVS SB13 Ultra.
The confusion is in regards to the source material vs speaker configurations.
A little late to the conversation but that clears things up. I’ve got a 5.1.2 using 2 subwoofers. Here I thought that second number referred to one sub or two. Now I’m gonna have to add more channels to make up for the .1 I lost in my speaker configuration description 😆. Thanks though. Some of us are still novice Audiophiles
Hey Jeff honestly it’s semantics. I still sometimes refer to my set up as a 7.2.4 because people know exactly what you’re talking about when you state it that way
5.2
However, when time permits, I will expand to at least a 5.2.4 setup, or possibly a 7.2.4 setup.
Awesome information because I was racking my brain trying to choose a new amp without breaking the bank because everything was saying 7.1.4 and I know I can’t live with just 1 subwoofer, I need 2 subwoofers! Now that you cleared this up for me, I can rest at ease and go pick up my new DEON! Thanks Again, Great Content!
Glad to help. Yes you can connect multiple subwoofers even to a single sub out using a Y splitter with no problem
You are correct, I just didn’t know if I would lose left and right channel separation in my subs. Right now I have an Onkyo 11.2 channel, but it’s not atmos. After watch this video, I can now have the desire atmos sound I was hoping for!
7.2.4 All speakers are timbre matched. 5 Pairs of Tannoy 7.2 mercury's + Tannoy 7C + 2 Tannoy TS2 10 sub's.
1st Emotiva basx a700 runs 5 base layer speaker channels and 2nd Emotiva bass a700 runs rear surrounds and front and rear hight channels.
My Yamaha RX-A3070 is the brains running operations and with the yammy having independent LFE channels I run 4 Aura bass shaker pro's off sub output 2. Both TS210'S off sub output 1with a Y splitter RCA lead.
Bass shakers are wired in series parallel and powered by a Dayton Audio A230 stand mount subwoofer amp.
TV LG 65C8 coupled with 3 Hue play bars + Hue HDMI syn box and bridge .
Harmony elite remote and Alexa.
Had this setup for past 2 years.
Since I built my house and started this home theater set up in my open floor plan living room I’ve bought everything but my sub. Just purchased an SVS sb 3000 due to its small footprint. Hopefully will get another in the future. Once I get the sub I’ll have a 5.1.2 setup with Elac b6.2 and c6.2 front stage and 4 Polk rc80i’s in my ceiling serving as my atmos and surround rears. I have a kitchen island 6 feet or so behind my couch so had to put rears in the ceiling. It’s not an ideal set up but I’ve had fun building it and sounds good to me!
That’s awesome Will! You are going to love the SB3000.
7.1.2 is what I went for as per my room requirement. As we have considered that the LFE has no direction and is present in the room widely spread evenly in every corner of the room, i am also really excited to see how would the two indipendent LFE channels work in a DTS X Pro.
so for 400 aud which is about 300 ish US i picked up an anthem mrx 700 for dolby true hd, i cant do ceiling channels so im stuck with 7 channel through the anthem. i cant think of a use case in a living room where you would need anything approaching more. its really amazing what you can get now for a fraction of what it costs if you look around for 'grail' receivers from the late dolby true hd era. also most stuff has never hit 4k blu ray and there is only so many times you can watch transformers to show off your receiver so i recommend you build based on what you watch.
What I understood Phil to say was the content, not necessarily the hardware, was the primary limiting factor.
I currently have a 7.2.4 system with all Bower and Wilkins speakers, Marantz SR-7013, and an Emotiva XPA-3 amp for my front sound stage.
Ok I now realize I have a 7.1.4 system with two SVS PB-16 Ultras 🤓
5.1 existing of fronts: Klipsch RP-8000f, center of Klipsch 504C, surround B&W M1 and my sub is B&W ASW2500. Actually the Klipsch are not able to sound as they could because of the very small area they are placed in (my bad)
You are correct. The numbers are in relation to the channels.. not the speakers. Seperation of sub outs are based on independently tuning the subs to the room. Movie encodes use a .1 lfe channel. The av is just allowing a feature to tune to your room. Delays and such. The reason for .1 is due to lfe not being a full range channel. Good information my man!
I have an 11.2 receiver Denon X3700H. I plan to deploy a 7.2.4 setup.
Now I fully understand why .2 is incorrect ☺ Thank you for the detailed information 😊
I upgraded my Pioneer Elite VSX-LX303 receiver to Denon AVR-X6700H couple weeks ago🤩 It's a huge jump in price wise and, I'm trying to get a hang of it🙂
I'm still learning but it is sounding real good so far🥰
Hey Youthman. Joined the Youthman Crew on FB recently. My first home theater I built is currently 5.1.2.
Awesome! Welcome to the group.
And congrats on your first home theater build! That’s awesome Derek.
I’m running a 5.”2”.4 set up I have all matching Pioneer AJ speakers and I have it anchored with 2 HSU ULS-15 MK2s... they rock my house... interesting thing is that even with DTS:X pro ability to process “stereo bass” it’s kind of silly in the home theater. Let me explain, bass waves are far too large for home theaters to be able to distinguish a true left and right. That’s why things like a mini dsp, to essentially create one cohesive sub through time alignment etc makes far more sense and important. DTS:X pro would only make sense if you had a gigantic room where bass waves weren’t larger than the room themselves.... bass waves can be well over 50 feet long(20 Hz is 56 feet long!), think about that! So this whole .2 nonsense would probably be a bad idea, not to mention the bass cancellation that would probably happen, so I’d argue “mono” bass is the way to go in the home theater especially when paired with a mini dsp.
Hi Youthman I have 5.2.2 or 5.1.2 (with this new info) thanks man great video as per usual
Man Michael great video. So I have been Incorrectly telling you guys that I have a 5.2.2 system. I really have a 5.1.2 system with 2 subwoofers. Thanks for clearing that up, I love learning new stuff. Have an awesome day man!
Thanks mate for the info,which I was always in agreement with,but my worry was what the manufacturers of AVRs intended to depict with a second digit.In their case it stands for the number of subwoofer outputs their products have ,even their software in speaker set up interface align with their notation.
IMG_7151.PNG
Yes it definitely makes it confusing to consumers
I have 5.1.2 atmos in overhead config.Yamaha mentions their AVR as 5.1.2 even they have 2 sub output..now I understand why they do..thanks
So I guess after finishing my home theater, and watching numerous other videos, I haven't been sent any YOUTHMAN content since March. With that said, I miss the channel, but what happened to my favorite part..."hit that subscribe button!" C'mon man, gotta bring that back!😊
I've got a 7.2.2 setup. Although the .2 is only 2 subwoofers in the same box. So technically 7.1.2, they are both hooked up in the same channel. I can support a second channel, if I so desired.
I have a 5.1.4 Anthem 1120 set up with all Klipsch speakers (2 subs). I have two more surround speakers but have not set them up yet. Should get to that.
Well, then I will describe my system as a 7.1.4 because that is the signal that I’m feeding it but if I‘m talking only about speakers I call it a 7.2.4 setup and with DTS:X Pro the content then will also become 7.2.4 then. But I think at times it will happen that I use those descriptions incorrectly because it‘s either not relevant and easier to describe it that way or just because I forget about it. Thanks for clarifying though!
.1 is the channel information on the disc.
Only one channel.... so 1...not .2
I have a Denon X3600H 5.1.2.4 setup. Five speakers, one LFE channel with two independent outputs, two subs and four in-ceiling Dolby Atmos speakers. Can't wait to add more numbers to that sequence. lol : )
Oh, and the 5 will eventually become a 7 in the next month or two once I've added an external amp.
I hung 34 blackout drapery panels around my 14.5' W x 19' L room. Very minimal reflections. I have a7 .1.4 system. Yamaha RX-Z11 receiver. One sub & one transducer I=Beam VT-300 in my seating platform riser.
I have a 7.1 with 2 Subs using a Marantz 6014 and B&W speakers. I’d like to try some hight channels, but i don’t want to drill holes in the ceiling. Thanks for this explanation. It makes a lot of sense, since the soundtrack only sends one signal for LFE (except DTS Pro).
Please drill those holes 🕳 on the ceiling and enjoy more immersive experience
Hey man, love your channel!
I think you may have interpreted what Phil said incorrectly.
Correct me if im wrong people, but what i think Phil means in that all the formats besides dtsx pro only have one lfe channel, its not so much a processing issue as it is a lack of more than one .1 Channel when the audio mix is done.
Eg, when they do the sound mixing for a movie, they only mix one lfe channel.
I think this is where dtsx pro content comes in as they more than likely will have 2 dedicated lfe channels.
Ps, have a 7.1.4 system 😉
Also keep up the awesome work my bro!
You’re sort of correct in that it’s THEORETICALLY possible for there to be more than 1 LFE channel. DTS:X does technically support 2 LFE channels but it’s literally never been used, all DTS:X mixes to date have been 7.1.4.
So in the real world, 100% of the content you can actually use has a mono LFE channel. So .1 is still the de facto assumption.
7.1 here. Our ‘standard’ UK houses are kinda to small for most people to have a dedicated room, don’t get me wrong, lots of people have dedicated rooms over here, but mine is in my living room, anyways, the Audyssey does a very good job of fixing my crazy room layout, I don’t have room for side speakers as there are doors in the way or the rears would be maybe 2 feet in front of one another. So I have dipoles from Mission for my rear surrounds and surround backs, unfortunately I have to have them all behind me on my back wall, the rear surrounds are up about 5 feet above my head, the surrounds are at ear level, as they are dipoles they do a great job along with Audyssey of creating that all immersive sound, one day when I have a dedicated room I will fix this as my sons room (for now) is ideal, well better than what I have now lol, as you say YM, it’s how we like it and how the set up runs and corrects it, keep up the amazing info and stay safe
Youthman, what is being mixed up is the notation of Source material vs. System setup. So in other words, you are both correct (the two poster's that indicated that their "System setup" was a x.2.x). For source material it will always be x.1.x (Well, until DTS Pro), however when designating a Speaker system setup, the x.2.x (or any # greater than 1) is merely indicating when the Subwoofer "channels" (of the processor and not the Source material) has independent adjustability of Volume, Distance and Phase. So the "answer" that you received back was on the topic of Source material and not Speaker system setup. These are simply two different designations and rightfully so. The worse part is of course... all of the AVR manufacturers which are miss-representing when they indicate that their equipment is providing x.2.x when in fact it is only x.1.x There are of course many AVRs and Preamp processes that are truly providing an x.#.x where # is > then 1, however many times it is the manufacturers miss-representing their equipment's true capabilities... and this of course has led to the utter confusion on the Topic. However YES, two different designations they are and need to be..., each of which could be found on Dolby's own website / web pages, as well as sites from Lexicon (the first to have x.2.x or rather simply x.2 back then) and other high-end manufacturers (who truly offer > .1). So yeah, simply two different designations and therefore important to know the context :)
I’m in agreement. It’s just difficult to use the same structure to describe system configuration and system capabilities.
@@Youthman Yes, that was likely the pitfall from Day one! They really ought to have done something different, but honestly I don't know what :(
@@Youthman Thanks!!! So let's say for example that the Source material is 5.1 however the Preamp processor is able to both derive Rear vs. Side Surrounds (and do so in a very successful manner and not at all gimmick-ee), as well as independently control 2 Subwoofers, then a 7.2 Preamp processor it is :) {aka Lexicon MC-1, even the DC-1}. So yeah, simply two similar looking notations which are representing two different things Source material vs. System Speaker Channel processing / setup.
@@Youthman Heck, I had a 5.1 System BEFORE Dolby Source material 5.1 even existed !!! Using TWO Preamps / Processors I was able to extract the Rear Surround channels (non-discrete of course) in order to take Source material 2.0 (since Source material 5.1 didn't even exist yet) and create a 5.1 System (Yes, the Subwoofer channel was yet a 3rd component / outboard crossover processor in order to derive the Subwoofer channel, as well the Center derived. What a mess! And it didn't sound so good). Then after that I derived my own 7.1 System despite Dolby only having 5.1 Source material (again using Dual-Processors, but which did sound decent) . Those were the days! Experimentation and beyond :)
Yeah I’m not sure how else they could have designated the differences.
I'm running a 7.1 setup Non-Atmos AVR. Looking for New Denon 8K series (Actually for HDMI 2.1 though). I'm using ancient Denon AVR1909 currently.
One other point, in relation to a future DTS codec offering two LFE outputs of discrete info, I would suggest that it wouldn’t be any better than multiple subs on one LFE channel, like we have now. One of the biggest benefits to using two subs is the additive effect that two identical subwoofers offer - wherein they enhance all frequencies played - effectively giving the listener deeper bass and more output at ALL frequencies which the subwoofers are capable of reproducing.
If a DTS codec divided up the frequencies to two separate subs - effectively adding an additional band pass filter - you wouldn’t get those intrinsic benefits because the two subwoofers would be playing the same information. Unless of course you used two subwoofers per LFE output. They would also lose their enhanced “coverage”, eliminating or reducing room modes and evening out response in the room, unless again, you used two subs per LFE output.
I remain open to being convinced otherwise, but to me, there’s no benefit to adding a second LFE channel. One works perfectly fine. If someone wanted to truly add some transformative low bass performance, buy subwoofers with speaker level inputs, like a REL, and add them to your main channels to yield full range in all channels. This will promote “steering” in the system and allow bass to sweep directionally through your space. Much better use and you don’t need a fancy processor to do it.
Don’t know if I fully agree with this. It’s semantics. It is a single channel of information, but the naming system is to signify how many speakers you’re using. If you have four subs and five ear level speakers in a system, it is a 5.4 system. There is no need to specify .1 because it could only ever be .1 - it’s implied that it’s receiving only one LFE channel of discreet information.
For my part, I will call my system by it’s true number of speakers; 5.2
L&R: KEF R11
C: KEF R2c
SL&SR: KEF R3
Sub: KEF Kube 12b x 2
Marantz AV7704
Rotel RMB-1095
Oppo 203
Call it semantics but I have yet to see Dolby label it that way. I totally get it (and sometimes refer to my setup as a 7.2.4) but it still isn’t correct.
Does Dolby offer setup guides for multiple subwoofers? I’ve only ever seen their setup graphics with a single sub. I mean to say, that they may not specify that because as you accurately stated the SIGNAL is processed as 5.1. Therefore, when someone is describing their system - no matter if it’s 5 speakers and 1 sub or 5 speakers and 10 subs - it will always behave as a 5.1. You are correct.
However, as you and I tell each other about our systems, I can’t see myself describing my system any other way than it’s literal layout; 5 speakers and 2 subs, or 5.2.
I am happy though that you are educating the masses on the .1 channel though. Many people don’t realize that it is completely discrete information not ever played through the other channels.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks Nicholas. Honestly it makes more sense to refer to it as a 7.2.4 vs a 7.1.4 with dual subs. 🤣
Processing and Channel Layout could be described in two different t ways.
Ok I got one for you. If I have 6 floor level speakers , 4 ceiling speakers and the LFE channel. Is this 6.1.4 or is it technical a 7.1.4 because the data is 7 channels but then processed to 1 SB speaker?
6.1.4
Think of the first number as how many directional speakers you have in front of u, to the sides of u, and behind u
The second number is always .1 since it’s 1 LFE channel
The third number is how many speakers you have above you for atmos.
Hope that clears it up
Youthman! Thanks for another great video! Totally agree with your assessment that there is (currently) one LFE signal, I actually like the .2 nomenclature for subs on a receiver (and in a system) for two reasons- one, it identifies how many subs are in the system which could come in handy for troubleshooting and most importantly, it usually means the receiver can optimize 2 subs separately which some receivers cannot. Same signal, but different sub positions usually means separate sub optimization is required.
I currently have a 5.1.2 but upgrading this month to a 5.1.4 and denon 4700! Can’t wait!
so in theory if you have more than one subwoofer the signal is being shared which makes it weak thus making no sense of having more than rather a single powerful sub.
You’re the master at this. Quick question. When adjusting the volume level on multiple subs do you adjust the level one at a time? Then match them all at the same DB level?
Yes, you want to just each of them individually then you can use the group sub level to adjust to your preference
I have 7.1 channel, love your enthusiasm for home theatre!
Thank you kindly
So now you are saying i have to upgrade my receiver......man i wish it could be done via software update
If that’s a serious comment, you do not have to upgrade anything. You’re fine
LFE is only 1 channel and you can have as many subwoofers as you want. They will all play the same full LFE signal.
I agree. The purpose is not to convince anyone they need DTS:X PRO, the purpose is to correct misinformation
About the LFE. I'm told that LFE only goes to the left channel of the AVR, at least my Denon does. This is the 2 channel. I have 2 subs connected to 1 and 2, but only LFE will go to 2. So what goes to the 1 channel? Only bass? From 20Hz to 120Hz? My fronts are setup as large with a crossover at 40Hz. They can handle that. So any lower then 40Hz will go to the sub connected to 1?
Wireiing my home theater for 9.2.4 or based on what you explain in this video 9.1.4
Have 5.1 on klipsch speakers and pioneer receiver. Have a question I play you tube music sub don't work only 2 fronts so I bought a splitter for left and right cable plug it in play you tube music no sub bass only front.
I have a 7.1 system with the Emotiva XMC-1 as my Pre/Pro. It has 2 sub outputs and gives the option of running them as dual mono or as stereo Subs. If configured as stereo then the bass information from the right speakers goes to the right Sub and information from the left speakers goes to the left sub. If dual mono then the information is routed from all speakers to both subs. They can also be setup separately.
5.1.4, front height are upfiring. Will be switching to front ceiling heights.
Hi Michael, you're right, other than of course the DTSX Pro which has .2 sub channels. I have a Trinnov with a 9.4.6 setup so can allocate the bass wherever I want to. Lyngdorf will already split the bass to stereo L and R.
What brand of hdmi cables do you use? Does different brands with the same hdmi 2.0 cable have different impacts on sound quality?
7.2.4 marantz sr7013 and mm7055, bowers and wilkins front stage with 702 s2 and htm71, 686 s2 and martin logan atmos speakers and polk surround speakers and 2 subs. love ya videos mate, thanks heaps.
The surround field designation (5.1, 7.1, 7.1.4, or 9.1.4) should always pay respect to what's on the print and for object based content, what the Atmos/DTSX renderer spits out. What's handled in the DSP downstream can be any number of things and often leads to confusion. Case in point, If there are 9 LFE subwoofers on a big mixstage with unique delays that doesn't mean the mix is now 5.9. All 9 and still receiving the same input feed.
@youthman what if you use the full range RCA inputs instead of the LFE then you would get true stereo lows and thus the .2
Thanks for the info. So if a receiver has dtsx pro then it can decode the 2 seperate subwoofer signals? Another question unrelated. If you have 2 subwoofers of a hometheater bundle, can you upgrade any of the speakers to any brand to work with the subs?
I have a pioneer elite Sc LX 704 with a 9.2.4 two subs in the front with all Klipsch reference speakers R-41 m back side 504C center channel Rp8000 front and 4 R 41 sa atmos and RP 5025 side speakers I am kind of new at this after calibration. What setting should I go back and change? All speakers are running small any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
If I buy all the equipments required to set up 7.1.4 Dolby Atmos home theatre, do I need to get help of an engineer to configure the system?
I’m new to the theater community. I just brought a Marantz 7015 AVR. Was this a good purchase. I replaced a Onkyo 787 and it sounds totally different.
What if I send LFE from my AVR to my better 12" sub and split my center speaker-level signal into a weaker dedicated sub to make the center channel nice and meaty? I am 7.1.2 by signal but 7.2.2 by eargasms.
I have in my Living room - 2 full range Center, L & R, 2 full range surrounds, 2 full range rears. In my basement - L & R, Full range center, 2 full range surrounds, 2 B-52 18" Bass Scoops, 2 B-52 18" Bass Subs. This is why i luv sound just as much i luv Picture....
I have a Pioneer 7.1 channel receiver but have it set up as a 5.1 system.
Thanks for the clarification, it does make sense. I've been trying to maximize the LFE output by daisy chaining 2 mismatched powered subs together & having them configured to make the best use of their individual strengths. Thanks!
I think what Phil is saying is, the ACTUAL Dolby audio track, only contains one LFE track, whereby dts-x pro audio track CAN contain 2 seperate, and different LFE tracks, which an AVR with 2 independent subwoofer outputs will be able to process. Syked my 8500 has pro coming 😊😊😊
That very well may be the case.
5.1 been the same for 20 years, room is not big enough for more and I have all separates so it costs alot to add a couple speakers
Most people confuse the middle number with the number of physical subs one has
While some people do it because it’s just easier to let people know right off the bat how many subs you have working in your system
So if you have 2 subs the signal should go to the 2 left (LFE) inputs?
5.1, Paradigm Studios with SVS PB-4000 sub. Rotel pre-amp and amp.
Question: SVS customer service told me to add a splitter to my LFE output and plug both ends into the LFE and line level input of the sub. They said that can add 6db of volume compared to just having one LFE input. Is that unique to SVS, or is that common practice?
9.2 capable but running 7.2
OnkyoTXRZ830 SVS Ulta all speakers and 2 PB300 subs.
Finally! A review that puts value in the premium manufacturers packaging!
Well done, like usual, Youthman!
Is there any DTSX Pro program material out there? It makes no sense having 2 LFE channels in the receiver if there is only one LFE source. I have 3 subwoofers, each of which receives a different mix of LFE and other channels and is independently EQ'd. But that does not meet the criterion for .2 or .3. Neither, then, would a genuine DTSX Pro receiver when playing a single channel LFE source.
Just started watching but I always say .1 cuz there is only 1 LFE channel.
People just like to be clear and state how many subwoofers they have.
The LFE channel is only 1 dedicated channel. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t understand LFE.
2 subwoofers, 4,6,8 it doesn’t matter how many you use. They ALL get the SAME LFE signal.
There are not separate bass frequencies being sent to subwoofer 1 and another separate LFE signal being sent to subwoofer 2 etc
It’s all the same signal.
If you have 2 sub inputs, that doesn’t mean you need to use both inputs to get all of the LFE information that is assigned to the LFE channel. Both inputs receive a full LFE signal, not only certain frequencies.
There is no need to have more than 1 LFE track since bass frequencies are omnidirectional. This is why you can put the subwoofer wherever it sounds best in your room.
This is different from you’re center channel for example. This is a specific channel that needs to be placed in the front of the room and the dialogue etc is specifically assigned to it.
You simply can’t do that with bass frequencies. I’m surprised there is confusion to this but nice video to clear this up.
Greetings I have an pioneer LX 86.. have 4 subwoofer outputs.. which one should I use when using a power amp?
Any will be fine. They all carry the same signal.
Have been watching most of your videos during this pandemic and there isn't one video that I haven't enjoyed like Louis commented keep them great informative videos coming. Also like the room tours you do as well. Mine is only a 7.1 through my Marantz 1604NR AVR which only supports HDMI 1.4 through ARC. I'm hoping to finish off my man cave with the new DENON AVR-X4700H maybe later this year once I get my PlayStation 5 out of the way. I'll likely just have it at 5.1.4 just because of how I have my man cave set up. If I do the 2 side speakers they'd have to be quite small and yes I realize that just because they're small doesn't mean you won't get excellent sound from them.