Hi folks, I just want to answer two very commonly asked questions in these comments: Q: "Why isn't 'Clear Normal Speed' green over green?" A: Given that the top light means Normal Speed and the bottom light means Medium Speed, green over green would be a conflict: it would mean both speeds simultaneously, and go against the fundamental principals of this system. Q: "Isn't it confusing to have a red light in a clear aspect?" A: In short, no. Train drivers are highly qualified in what they do, and know the system like the back of their hand. Confusion about aspects isn't really an issue. If any other frequent questions pop up I'll add them here!
It's easiest to think of the origins of this as two semaphore home arms on one post. The top arm is the NORMAL route at line speed, the lower arm is the DIVERGING route at a reduced speed. Everything is logically extrapolated from there. In New South Wales the origin is HOME over DISTANT as a distant signal on its own at night was indicated by a fixed green home light mounted above it. They never switched to using yellow anything until introducing power signalling.
In 4 aspect signalling the B arm signal head showing a proceed indication does not necessarily indicate to a driver a diverging movement. A driver observing this signal could also indicate he is catching up to the train ahead of him and not diverging. This is speed signalling not route signalling. @@cswvna
I mean, green over green is free to mean something special (I'd suggest green/green should be CBTC, and yellow/yellow for CBTC warning), as nothing else uses it. After all, if the lights are both out, how can you tell whether to use CBTC or if something's badly wrong?
CBTC relates to a system called positive train control which controls the movement of the train. There are options where the driver can control the train movement but it is still supervised by the computer control system. CBTC uses the principles of speed signalling and all info is displayed to the driver in his cab. You don't need unwanted aspects like double greens or yellows to confuse the situation as with CBTC everything you need to know is on a screen in front of the driver. @@NoLongerBreathedIn
A few weeks ago a train broke down near Kyneton which forced services into Melbourne onto the down line. I arrived at my station very close to my train's departure time, and if I hadn't known to check the signals as I approached, I would have been on the wrong platform and missed my train. This information can be very useful in uncommon but critical situations. In response to what you said at the end, I am one of those ex-New South Welshmen who believes our signalling is better, though now that I've finally gotten my head around how it works here in Vic, I'm not an frustrated by the differences nearly as much.
Oh yeah, that's a great example! Certainly at all those stations between Sunbury and Kyneton the normal passenger information isn't great when there are unplanned changes.
@Taitset Thanks for your reply :) Now that I think about it, the way you say that, in Victoria, you only need to consider one light at a time, for most of the time, actually explains why I've had so much trouble adjusting. Up in NSW, you need to consider both lights at all times since they deliver information in tandem, and that's just how I've been wired to think.
Great Video! The Melbourne signalling system isn't that confusing when you know how it works! Even know it may look confusing from a person without understanding.
Having grown up in South Australia, I had to learn UK-style route signalling AND US Speed signalling at the same time, because they both work side-by-side (such as on the Belair line, where one track is speed signalling for part of its length, and re-uses old route signals for the other part (while also still kind of being speed signalling), and the other track is fully route signalled). Long story short, this means that my "normal" signalling system comprises of TWO different systems of signalling, and I'm a bit more open to unique signalling systems. ...While NSW's signals feel weird to me (because I'm used to the "green means the next signal isn't red" mentality), I understand the logic behind having the bottom signal acting as a kind of repeater for the next signal, and instead using yellow to denote the use of a lower speed.
Was the US style influenced by Webb? A lot of station buildings from the Webb era have the US style of veranda roof over the whole building and sat on the ground with no platform.
South Aussie here too, I never understood when i go to melbourne why green over red was allowable, now I (sort of) get it... however I don't see the logic of having the bottom light show red if top light is green? Is it a visibility thing? Why not just be off, or double green?
@@BlackDrac82would assume it's because you don't want a failed lamp to cause the signal to look like a less restrictive aspect. Having a single green be clear medium would be okay but imho arse backwards given the less restrictive clear full would green over red.
This speed signalling system was first introduced at Adelaide Station in 1915 and eventually all of SA (and Vic obviously). In the late 80s and early 90s lots of work was done around suburban Adelaide to update signalling systems which is when the UK style signals were introduced (but still with speed signalling vestiges - eg using a route indicator to exit a passing siding). The rest of SA kept the speed signalling system which is in use today. The whole 'why is clear green over red' thing is no worse than traditional (UK style) semaphore signals - at a junction multiple semaphore arms would be provided, one for each route and one would be cleared to indicate the route set - at night this could be an array of red lamps and one green lamp to indicate clear - speed signalling is no different but the lamps (or semaphore arms) are separate speeds rather than separate routes. The speed signalling system was originally adopted from the US when Adelaide Station was remodeled and it was considered that the signalling would have been too complex with route signalling (arrival signals would have needed up to six semaphore arms). Speed signalling was adopted with yellow light for caution (also new at the time), and three arm upper quadrant semaphores for home signals at Adelaide Station and Adelaide Junction. Automatic block signalling replaced absolute block between Adelaide Station, Adelaide Junction, Mile End, North Adelaide and Bowden. Victoria seems to have maintained the use of 'green over red' everywhere, whereas the standard now in SA (other than suburban network), if a signal only need to show normal speed aspects, the lower lamp is replaced with a red reflector plate (presumably for economy reasons) (I believe it is the same in NZ). Incidentally on the suburban network, permissive signals are indicated by a 'P' plate on the signal and absolute signals by an 'A' plate - the 'P' plates are offset from the main signal just as the original red marker lamps were for permissive signals (and still are in Vic and general in SA) and the 'A' plates are in line with the signal head as the marker lamps would be in the original speed signalling system.
Automatic and Track Control(ATC) has a special rule. If a train is departing onto an ATC single line section on a Clear Medium Speed, (and technically Clear Low Speed) , the speed restriction only applies until the train clears the points guarded by the signal. After that, the driver may accelerate to line speed, without having to wait for the next signal.
You’ll often hear the letter route signals referred to as Theatre Box indicators. My guess being they look like how theatres would do illuminated letters on outdoor signage many decades ago.
Fantastic, could you make an explainer on 2 position signalling, and I was wondering why Frankston still uses it, and if there is 1 repeater at the down end of the station towards Stony point, shouldn’t there be another repeater to tell the driver of the next 3 position signal on the up?
For a while at the north end of Royal Park station, there was a stub of the Inner Circle line remaining. The signal protecting it looked like Red over Red with a small, lit Red. I couldn't find the meaning in any reference (although I didn't have anything official), so maybe the small Red was something separate. But the meaning was pretty obvious: Very Stop.
@@Taitset No, just a typical two-head plus small signal. My borther was a driver in Sydney so I learned the signals there, only to discover Victoria was very different. So it was something I noticed as not normal.
@@mrewan6221 Found a picture here: www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/114987.jpg Even though it looks like a red blob here, that bottom light is an illuminated red letter 'A.' This means the signal is switched out and operating automatically, despite being a Home signal. The 'A' only lights up when the signal is at stop, there's another picture here (a bit hard to see) showing it at green over red, with the 'A' turned off: www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/114487.jpg To the right of the A is the Low Speed light, which is off in both photos. This diagram: victorianrailways.net/signaling/completedia/fbridgecob72.html Shows the signal as being equipped with an A, although it shows it in a different position. There aren't many signals left like that, but there's one nearby on the up line at Macaulay.
@@Taitset I remember the signal as being on the stub. not the down Upfield track. But there's nothing on the diagram, so maybe I'm mis-remembering it. I could well have walked to the down end of the up platform, if there was a good wait for the next train. But equally, it could habe been a red A. Maybe my glasses didn't match my vision at the time.
The UK system seems a lot easier to understand. They have green, double-yellow, yellow & red. The double-yellow is used both for high-speed lines, to give extra warning that the next signal is at caution, and also to warn that the train is approaching points which are set to diverge.
Another great video taitset, is there any chance you could do another one of your marvellous videos on ‘catenary’ of the Melbourne suburban system or Sydney? Keep the videos rolling mate, they are sooo goood! I love your videos so much.
Cause you truly are covering all the juicy gunzel curious topics! But Melbournes catenary is very interesting, covering all the styles and different years of gantries and pylons, dead end stanchions, weights and pulleys. It’s a very beautiful and needed piece of infrastructure! Seriously your narrations and motion graphics with highlight colours and maps are perfect! Also could you do one on what station names should really be named, some stations in Melbourne are so incorrect it’s a sham! Like south morang should be called mill park, amd middle gorge should be called south morang 🙄, the people that decide these names are ridiculous. Theirs heaps of stations ! I can help you out… the correct geographical name should override regardless of historical context, Collingwood Stn should be Abbotsford, and Burwood on the Alamein line LOL!!!!
As a train driver from Germany, these signals are very different to what we know. To me it is insane that a red signal can be passed under normal circumstances. Red always means stop and may only be passed when shunting and it is permitted by an additional signal (Sh 1) or when you get an order from the signaller to pass a signal at fault. To be honest, I prefer our precaution system, as a red signal automatically alerts you and it may not be passed on a normal train service
Canada has sort-of the opposite: "If it's not all red, it's not red at all", which means red lights are ignored if there is any green or yellow, either of which may be solid of flashing. The reds become place-holders so the viewer can see which whether the green/yellow light is top/middle/bottom. Yes, there are three heads on many signals! If there are only two heads, and the upper one is red, an imaginary red head is added above, or if the upper head isn't red, an imaginary red head is added below. If there is only one head, two imaginary red heads are added above. With six different aspects (red can also flash, which still doesn't mean "stop") and three positions there are a massive 216 different combinations. Some are not used, but all that are used have at least one real or imaginary red head. It's only the red/red/red, imaginary-red/red/red, and imaginary-red/imaginary-red/red signals that really mean STOP.
The CBTC is operating in parallel with the conventional signalling, the signals just extinguish when a CBTC equipped train is approaching. You can see it happening in this video: ruclips.net/video/iRMzC5yPU_A/видео.htmlsi=7B7Yn24ZEf2G8m7C
This isn't too dissimilar to how signalling works in Auckland as I understand. Though we have a blinking yellow signal as well. Blinking yellow over red means proceed at normal speed, next signal is caution normal speed. [and thus two signals from blinking yellow over red is red over red]
It's also similar to what's used a few hundred km further south, in Wellington. I think it's mainly speed based, but it's sometimes possible to infer a divergent route is to be taken, e.g. when pulling into a different platform to usual. The nearest station to where I live also has a nearby level crossing. Freight trains get a green signal, and the barrier ams etc get triggered sooner than for passenger trains, which get a red signal until the barrier arms go down, resulting in less disruption to road traffic while loading and unloading passengers.
@@richardvoogd705 That situation with the level crossing would be based on express/stopping, rather than freight/passenger specifically. We have the same thing in Victoria, it's either selected manually by the signaller, or chosen based on the train's behaviour at a previous location.
One thing I've never understood is why we do not use green over green for line speed. Everywhere else in the entire planet seems to have figured it out except for vicsig
@@Big-Show1 simple answer is green. Over green is line speed. If you require any more information but a line you're travelling on, you can obviously use any combination lights you like. However, because the base you're using is not green over green, you're limiting the number of signal positions you have to work with
The top light is for normal speed, the bottom light is for medium speed - kind of similar to how multiple semaphore arms on one signal were used for different routes originally: only one arm would be cleared at a time and that told you the route that was set. Eventually in the USA, the separate semaphore arms were used to indicate different speeds rather than routes: or the top arm was used for the main line and the bottom arm for any sidings etc. SA and Victoria adopted this system starting from about 1912 in Adelaide. Not long later, lights were used as direct drop-in replacement for the semaphore arms, showing the same colours as the semaphore lamps did at night. So the system remained the same with the top light for normal speed and the bottom light for medium speed.
As an irregular user of the Frankston line, this'll be very useful to know since Glenhuntly just opened and there might be some disruptions/delays. Seriously, this is one of my favourite youtube channels. Perfect mix of funny animations and interesting things that don't get a lot of media coverage :)
I'm an American that once worked for a railway here in the US. I think its very interesting how similar these signals are to the speed-signals in use here on our Northeast Corridor, and most of the CSX system for that matter. (you did say they're based of off North American systems after all). I really like learning about all the differences between signal systems, particularly between different continents. Strangely, I worked under a route-based system (former Southern Railway) that uses almost the same aspects as the Victorian system. Where you said you can sometimes infer the route from the speed indication, on our system, that's exactly what we do. A red-over-green would be diverging-clear as opposed to clear medium speed. We could also have any color appear on the third signal head, not just yellow. This is to display a secondary divergence, such as where there's a high speed mainline crossover and a turnout to a lower speed branch line at the same controlled junction. A Red-red yellow would still produce a low speed signal, which we call restricted speed (prepared to stop within half your sightline, never exceeding 20MPH). we would also have an advance-warning aspect, Advance Approach (yellow-yellow) meaning the signal after the next is red. This was a mouthful but I hope some Aussies find this interesting :)
Sydney suburban driver here. This is hilarious how different the meaning of the same light combination in NSW and Vic. Big props to drivers that have made the transition from one system to the other.
My new signal knowledge actually proved useful the other day. The train my wife gets into work is an express through train and I always go with her as my daughters day care is nearby too. On the platform next to it is a terminus train which takes the same route 3 minutes later, but with more stops. Concerningly often, the express is delayed meaning the local train goes first, and since there are no passing opportunities for the express, it ends up stuck behind this train the whole way to the city. Usually, the station staff knows this is going to happen and announces to the platform for passengers to get on the other train if the express is delayed, since they'll end up being faster that way. The other day however, the station staff came out to this platform expecting the train. I noticed however that it did not have a green signal to go through, so I checked the other side, and sure enough that train had both green, and the 3 yellow lights indicating its path through the points, so I knew the local train was going first and told my wife to get on it. A few other people did this too, but most didn't and so they ended up missing that one and waiting for the delayed through train. Probably only saved my wife maybe 3 minutes, but hey, it's 3 minutes, that's coffee time 😂👍
Hey Taitset! Great video on how signalling works on Victorian railways! As a fellow railway enthusiast, I found it fascinating to learn about the intricacies of the system in Victoria. I'm from Queensland, Australia, and our railway signalling system is quite similar to the UK's. I was wondering if you could consider making a video about Queensland railways' signalling next? It would be awesome to see how it compares to the UK system and learn about any unique features that make our Queensland railways special! Keep up the fantastic work, and looking forward to more exciting content from your channel! 🚂
I've always wanted to know about Victorian train signals, and this video really helped me understand a lot more about it. Thanks Tait, as always, great content.
Love this. Leaping in between Vic and NSW, I always have an easier time with the Victorian signals, especially much more so than those in NSW/Sydney. The biggest beef I have in particular with the Sydney system is their normal speed warning; I reckon there should NOT be any display of green immediately before a stop signal!!!
I used this knowledge a couple of weeks ago to make sure I was on the first of two trains departing Ringwood when they pulled into platforms 1 and 2 simultaneously :)
You have done a great job explaining signals. The importance of safe working is drivers route knowledge... thats at the core of this. Kudos to all train crew in Australia. You people are very important to safety.
Great video. I loved your explanation. As a Hunter Valley driver who uses both single and double light NSW signalling, the Victorian signalling has always confused me. I'll have to watch this a few more times to get a better grasp of it though. Keep up the great work!
I would really like to see a vid of all of the unkept line promises, and possible lines and line changes in the future, real great vids and I love noticing all these features on different commutes!
A few days ago I got my hands on the hurstbridge heritage line film on dvd. By a steam media production but this was more into the semaphore and staff and ticket system.
Really interesting video! I had considered to a similar topic for a video myself, though focusing on the signals from the UK, as that's where I live. As you said, our system isn't overly complicated compared to some other countries, but there's still some interesting oddities to be found I'm sure. Maybe I'll dust off that idea someday when I feel like travelling again.
Good stuff. You're right that signalling around the world varies wildly. Here in the UK we seem to manage fine without variable speed signalling, but can't see how most of the rest of the world can manage without junction indicators!
So what I really get from this, is that train drivers can't be colourblind. I don't quite know why some lights use the same physical space where some separate out each light.
one day on the Frankston line in VR days a car was hit by a train at Mentone, they then ran trains down the wrong line crossing over at Cheltenham, running down the up track and crossing back at Mordialloc. I think this would have used a pilot-man who rides with the driver and no trains can proceed without the pilot. Sort of like a human staff. I don’t think the private companies dare do that now and would stop everything and put people on buses. In those days the signal boxes were manned and the signalman could issue a wrong line order.
If you want an example of a signalling system that is truly bizarre, the French mechanical system would surely be near the top of the list. Most signals are boards that rotate around a vertical axis (semaphores are also used), there are multiple ways of indicating Stop (permissive and absolute), and speed restrictions apply from the first set lf points, not the signal. Trains may also be required to stop on a clear signal occasionally if the previous signal displayed a particular aspect. Modern French light signals use the light aspects of the mechanical signalling.
Usually when i'm at my local station, when a train arrives to stop and pick up passengers it sometimes displays green over red (clear normal speed). Wouldn't it have to display stop because the train stops at the station? and do the signals display green over red for express trains when passing through a station?
In most cases, signals don't really have any bearing on whether a train stops at a station or not. There are some cases where a level crossing is close to the end of the platform, where the signal will stay red for an extended time as a stopping train pulls in to allow the crossing to activate later, but if there's no crossing, then the signal will be green is the route ahead is clear, regardless of whether the next train stops. (Might be able to explain more if you can tell me which station it is!)
As a brit, if you look any further than surface level for our signalling system the conciseness just falls apart - it's absurd how many quirks there are (mostly because the network is centuries old) e.g. Radio-Electric Token Block Km/H speed boards & ETCS TVM SPAD Indicators Flashing aspects Up/Down tracks Anderson's Piano Semaphore signalling the list goes on it's honestly amazing how the whole thing stays together!
Admittedly yes the first signalling system I've learnt but the PTA's (WA's urban network) does seem to be the simplest. It's primarily 3 aspect signals with Clear, Caution and Stop (plus the occasional shunt/dwarf) with speed boards and feathers instead of speed based aspects. Do you know what the CBTC trains will show in cab to the drivers? I'll also add that occasionally controlled signals are installed outside of junctions in order to have more signals that can be used as protection by track workers.
This sounds like an overly complicated system, but as with all signal systems, once you get used to it, it's more a matter of remembering the patterns. Still find the German (all 5 generations), French, and Austrian systems the easiest to understand, and especially to drive by. The British system for the "real" trains is okay, but the system on the Underground is a mess that relies entirely on route knowledge instead of using logical signalling (I mean, their repeaters look identical to the main signals, which is not good for safety). I live in Denmark, where our current light signals were introduced in the 1960s and is only our second signal system. It's a very primitive system, really, with no pre-signals (repeaters, distant, whatever you want to call them) and wasn't designed for the speeds trains run at now, so they rely on ATC to tell the drivers what the signals are, because they can't see the signals in time when going full speed
I worked in IT for AMTL/Connex at Burnley back in the day when Norm Grady and Dale Rattle were running things there (22-23 yeara go now). At that time the desktop PC's were being upgraded to Windows 2000. However it was either and Amstrad or Amiga ( started with A I can't exactly rememeber) controlling the boom gates at Clifton Hill. They decided it was such a reliable system they wouldn't poison it with Microsoft.
Personally I prefer the swiss type N where you have green for clear at line speed, green with number for clear at [number * 10km/h], yellow for prepare to stop, yellow with number for slow down to [number * 10km/h] and finally red for stop… pretty easy to remember and theoretically usable even on high speed rail or with reduced block lengths or any other weirdness. Additionally route indicators or voltage or gauge indicators can be provided too
i'm... _fine_ with victoria's signals, i do prefer systems that have more stages of warning, but the multiple aspects of medium speed are unique. (incoming uninformed complaining) what i cannot understand is the amount of variability in any system, i know for sure it isn't unique to Victoria. the Banner signals are distinct, they should perhaps be used for all co-actors, the amount of extra small lights are excessive, and the rules for ignoring otherwise un-ignorable aspects are obtuse. i know these have been developed over a long period of time, but for critical operations, a driver shouldn't have to have an encyclopedia of the entire network operation to be safe. the exceptions should always be safe, not conditional. it can be done.
Railway signalling systems are apparently all bonkers. Most do the red/yellow/green for stop/caution/clear (but neither NSW nor the german-speaking countries got that memo in time). Speed signalling is where basically everyone gets weird - the brits still don't do it _at_ _all_, you have to know the speeds for every turn. And here: Red means stop. But if there is also a green light, it's clear. Unless the green light is below the red light. Erm? I don't really get why the lower red isn't just omitted.
I agree that Britain's signalling is easy to understand. Also, Japan is very straight forward. One that is seemingly counter-intuitive at first glance is Sweden - more green lights mean go slower, and all clear is a green over flashing white, (red means stop). But that's from a layman's view. If one is trained on the system, it becomes second nature, and there is certain logic to it.
Very interesting! Our signalling in Auckland is very similar. All the same basic indications, but slightly different names - Warning = Caution, etc. We use the same letter route indicators and banner indicators. No co-acting signals or repeaters. Low speed here is 25km/ with the same terms. Medium is 25 unless indicated otherwise. Usually 40 or 60, but ETCS sometimes allows EMUs to go faster than other trains like 30 over 25km/h turnouts. We don't have two reds after an occupied section and no medium indications before a red. ETCS applies a calculated speed limit curve on approach to a red or a lower speed limit and speed indicators hit other trains with a 20km/h limit when approaching a junction occupied by a conflicting movement. We have A-lights and offset (permissive) signals with similar rules, but applied in different ways. I do wonder whether there are equivalents to things we have like departure signals (governing entry to a block section when departing station limits) that a driver or signaller may describe differently to a layman. Even within the industry there's a broad spectrum of understanding of this system. In training even the tutors didn't all seem to understand or explain it in the same way.
One of the things you said and that some tutors say is the red means stop, which is intuitive and functionally correct in a sense, but when you get into the guts if it, red doesn't actually mean stop. It's just a placeholder. In reality, everything means stop unless you have a clear, legal and expected indication of a movement authority. Two reds is definitely stop, but one red and another colour is proceed. Any blank light is stop. Two greens or two yellows is stop. A proceed into a route you're not supposed to be taking is stop. All signals are stop until they're a legitimate proceed.
This signalling system is indeed very close to that of the US and Canada (not sure about Mexico). And they make my French brain hurt. Signalling here mostly looks like the UK's but with weird quirks. Great video!
@@anindrapratama Italy indeed uses searchlight signals however the aspects themselves don't actually work the same way. They don't have the same logic like other speed signalling systems do. There's a Wikipedia page which lists the various aspects and their meaning.
@@anindrapratamayeah Italy has searchlight signals and the system is similar to the victorian and North american one, as in there are red over green and red over yellow aspects, which you can't find anywhere else in Europe. In theory it's a speed signalling system, but not that flexible in the matter of speeds which can be communicated (only 30, 60, 100, line speed), and it's not used as pure speed signalling as the speed indication aspects are used basically only for diverging routes and for example shorter blocks than usual are indicated in other ways (with aspects which don't force a particular speed)
When I think of railway signalling in the Australian state of Victoria, I think of common railway signals used by Jacksonville, Florida-based railway company CSX on its lines, and explanations by Danny Harmon, the Distant Signal RUclips man.
Melbourne is also now only just phasing in TPWS to some signals... Perth has had a variant of ATP since 92 supposedly, yet a train recently spadded a signal near Perth central and wasn't stopped immediately, as it would have been, under pure ATP. Pure ATP, whilst expensive, is the gold standard for a reason
We've had TPWS since the start of RFR (about 2004), but only V/line trains are fitted and it's only on a handful of signals in the suburban area on routes shared with v/line. All suburban trains have mechanical tripcocks, which do a pretty good job despite being old technology.
Great video! I actually agree with you. I find Irish signalling the easiest (it's basically a simplified UK version!) and I actually find most types of Australian signalling really complex. Nonetheless excellent video as usual!
If you really want signals for dummies there's how WA does it, 3 aspects green, yellow and red. Routes are done with feather indicators or illuminated characters in more complicated areas. For speeds it's sign posted.
Hey Martin, this is a great explanation video, I’m still trying my best to remember all of the signal meanings. Next I’d love to see an explainer on Victoria or Australian Railway Signs and what they mean.
A good example of this is at Box hill station, the track is triple track up to box hill. Express Blackburn trains often beat the Lilydale/Belgrave conterpart and appear at Box Hill at the same time as eachother, the display rarely ever tells you which leaves first (it's usually the stopping all stations train as the other one will stop at Blackburn Station 2 stops later anyways) but the signalling helps a lot if you don't regular Box Hill or on the off peak time when the Blackburn leaves earlier because the stopping all stations train is ahead of schedule and needs to wait at Box hill.
Fantastic video! You did a good job when I learnt what the “S” and the “V” was between the gauge signals! If time permits, I’d also be intrigued to see a Patreon only behind the scenes of how you did those sick animations of trains and blocks 😜
i personally don't know but if you look through the video u can find all kinds of signals (traffic light looking ones because the lights can only illuminate one colour, semafore which don't really exist anymore, normal colour light signals, etc.) knowing VIC the the stupid privatisation there is probably somewhere with a rlly stupid and out of place signal.
Am I the only one who noticed that Coldstream is set on the Hitachi at 17:05? Is this an Easter egg or something, cause the station has been closed since the 80s??
Mechanical destination blinds usually included several 'what if' destinations that were thought to be likley extensions at the time. Hitachis also had places like East Doncaster and Melbourne Airport. Drivers often put them up for fun, although in that particular photo I might have just taken it while it was scrolling.
Very nice video. I for myself live in Germany and I have to say that the Victorian system seams to be much simpler than the German one, which uses more lights and different forms for distant and main signals. But for me this simplicity comes at a price. Namely the big safety hazard of driving through red lights. In Germany you would never drive through a red light. This is due to the fact that you could get used to driving when shown red. One might say that two red lights may be a clear indication but days can be stressful and you might just see one red light and think that the other one was green. Or even see both red lights but continue since you aren't trained to stop at red anymore. In addition this safety hazard can be mitigated quite easy, the second red light isn't necessary, it just indicates if the active signal is above or below. So just use an indication light instead of the red one. I would propose white since it is a neutral color and get the job done quiet well.
White really wasn't practical back when the system was invented, gets tricky to make it distinct from yellow especially when you're starting with gas/oil lamps on semaphore lenses.
Interestingly enough, some railroads here in North America do just that, where unnecessary red aspects are simply turned off. However, for slow speed and "restricted" (meaning proceed able to stop within visual range of any danger) indications the upper red light is still necessary. This system was originally created here for the old semaphore signals, and it was impractical at the time to have a specific marker aspect (the only options were horizontal stop, diagonal caution, and vertical proceed) so the "stop" aspect was used with the understanding that a train may not proceed in the absence of a clear "proceed" indication. Even early electric lighting technology (such as Position light signals and the US&S "searchlight" type signal) was limited to showing 3 unique aspects, and the least problematic solution at the time was to simply map the old semaphore aspects on to the new colored lights.
That Signal Body is one of few that I know of, they are quite rare from what I can tell. There is also one on both the entrance and exit to the Port of Portland (Both are incandescent still.) I've noticed both V/line and ARTC have done retrofits like that before, though Iirc they are getting removed and replaced more and more these days by modern brand new signal bodys.
@@jimsmowingofficial Took me a bit of searching, but I have this one photo of one at Broadford with LEDs fitted: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bri7m88eg8w1jnunlmj0o/20120417-7035.jpg?rlkey=hfk3l3gay3k42b43d8mvdpqbs&dl=0
Hi folks, I just want to answer two very commonly asked questions in these comments:
Q: "Why isn't 'Clear Normal Speed' green over green?"
A: Given that the top light means Normal Speed and the bottom light means Medium Speed, green over green would be a conflict: it would mean both speeds simultaneously, and go against the fundamental principals of this system.
Q: "Isn't it confusing to have a red light in a clear aspect?"
A: In short, no. Train drivers are highly qualified in what they do, and know the system like the back of their hand. Confusion about aspects isn't really an issue.
If any other frequent questions pop up I'll add them here!
It's easiest to think of the origins of this as two semaphore home arms on one post. The top arm is the NORMAL route at line speed, the lower arm is the DIVERGING route at a reduced speed. Everything is logically extrapolated from there.
In New South Wales the origin is HOME over DISTANT as a distant signal on its own at night was indicated by a fixed green home light mounted above it. They never switched to using yellow anything until introducing power signalling.
In 4 aspect signalling the B arm signal head showing a proceed indication does not necessarily indicate to a driver a diverging movement. A driver observing this signal could also indicate he is catching up to the train ahead of him and not diverging. This is speed signalling not route signalling. @@cswvna
I mean, green over green is free to mean something special (I'd suggest green/green should be CBTC, and yellow/yellow for CBTC warning), as nothing else uses it. After all, if the lights are both out, how can you tell whether to use CBTC or if something's badly wrong?
CBTC relates to a system called positive train control which controls the movement of the train. There are options where the driver can control the train movement but it is still supervised by the computer control system.
CBTC uses the principles of speed signalling and all info is displayed to the driver in his cab. You don't need unwanted aspects like double greens or yellows to confuse the situation as with CBTC everything you need to know is on a screen in front of the driver. @@NoLongerBreathedIn
@taitset, why does metro not travel via southern cross early Sunday mornings?
I love hearing this guy talk about trains. Seems like he really likes trains.
Woah 😮😮😮. That’s crazy
He's trained himself well
Die, potato
Nooooooo-
I like trains.
OH NO NO WAIT
@@caner78bobI love this because it’s awesome learning new stuff even randomly!
True gunzel!
As a suburban driver in Melbourne these signals are our bread and butter. Well explained to the novices out there.
A few weeks ago a train broke down near Kyneton which forced services into Melbourne onto the down line. I arrived at my station very close to my train's departure time, and if I hadn't known to check the signals as I approached, I would have been on the wrong platform and missed my train. This information can be very useful in uncommon but critical situations.
In response to what you said at the end, I am one of those ex-New South Welshmen who believes our signalling is better, though now that I've finally gotten my head around how it works here in Vic, I'm not an frustrated by the differences nearly as much.
Oh yeah, that's a great example! Certainly at all those stations between Sunbury and Kyneton the normal passenger information isn't great when there are unplanned changes.
@Taitset Thanks for your reply :)
Now that I think about it, the way you say that, in Victoria, you only need to consider one light at a time, for most of the time, actually explains why I've had so much trouble adjusting. Up in NSW, you need to consider both lights at all times since they deliver information in tandem, and that's just how I've been wired to think.
Great Video! The Melbourne signalling system isn't that confusing when you know how it works! Even know it may look confusing from a person without understanding.
Having grown up in South Australia, I had to learn UK-style route signalling AND US Speed signalling at the same time, because they both work side-by-side (such as on the Belair line, where one track is speed signalling for part of its length, and re-uses old route signals for the other part (while also still kind of being speed signalling), and the other track is fully route signalled). Long story short, this means that my "normal" signalling system comprises of TWO different systems of signalling, and I'm a bit more open to unique signalling systems.
...While NSW's signals feel weird to me (because I'm used to the "green means the next signal isn't red" mentality), I understand the logic behind having the bottom signal acting as a kind of repeater for the next signal, and instead using yellow to denote the use of a lower speed.
Was the US style influenced by Webb? A lot of station buildings from the Webb era have the US style of veranda roof over the whole building and sat on the ground with no platform.
South Aussie here too, I never understood when i go to melbourne why green over red was allowable, now I (sort of) get it... however I don't see the logic of having the bottom light show red if top light is green? Is it a visibility thing? Why not just be off, or double green?
@@BlackDrac82would assume it's because you don't want a failed lamp to cause the signal to look like a less restrictive aspect. Having a single green be clear medium would be okay but imho arse backwards given the less restrictive clear full would green over red.
This speed signalling system was first introduced at Adelaide Station in 1915 and eventually all of SA (and Vic obviously). In the late 80s and early 90s lots of work was done around suburban Adelaide to update signalling systems which is when the UK style signals were introduced (but still with speed signalling vestiges - eg using a route indicator to exit a passing siding). The rest of SA kept the speed signalling system which is in use today.
The whole 'why is clear green over red' thing is no worse than traditional (UK style) semaphore signals - at a junction multiple semaphore arms would be provided, one for each route and one would be cleared to indicate the route set - at night this could be an array of red lamps and one green lamp to indicate clear - speed signalling is no different but the lamps (or semaphore arms) are separate speeds rather than separate routes.
The speed signalling system was originally adopted from the US when Adelaide Station was remodeled and it was considered that the signalling would have been too complex with route signalling (arrival signals would have needed up to six semaphore arms). Speed signalling was adopted with yellow light for caution (also new at the time), and three arm upper quadrant semaphores for home signals at Adelaide Station and Adelaide Junction. Automatic block signalling replaced absolute block between Adelaide Station, Adelaide Junction, Mile End, North Adelaide and Bowden.
Victoria seems to have maintained the use of 'green over red' everywhere, whereas the standard now in SA (other than suburban network), if a signal only need to show normal speed aspects, the lower lamp is replaced with a red reflector plate (presumably for economy reasons) (I believe it is the same in NZ).
Incidentally on the suburban network, permissive signals are indicated by a 'P' plate on the signal and absolute signals by an 'A' plate - the 'P' plates are offset from the main signal just as the original red marker lamps were for permissive signals (and still are in Vic and general in SA) and the 'A' plates are in line with the signal head as the marker lamps would be in the original speed signalling system.
Automatic and Track Control(ATC) has a special rule. If a train is departing onto an ATC single line section on a Clear Medium Speed, (and technically Clear Low Speed) , the speed restriction only applies until the train clears the points guarded by the signal. After that, the driver may accelerate to line speed, without having to wait for the next signal.
@@Big-Show1Rule 2(f),Section 16 in the rulebook.
You’ll often hear the letter route signals referred to as Theatre Box indicators. My guess being they look like how theatres would do illuminated letters on outdoor signage many decades ago.
Our instructor in "Cleaners Class" at Dynon in the 70's couldn't have explained it any better.
A most excellent explanation! Well done.
Fantastic, could you make an explainer on 2 position signalling, and I was wondering why Frankston still uses it, and if there is 1 repeater at the down end of the station towards Stony point, shouldn’t there be another repeater to tell the driver of the next 3 position signal on the up?
I kidna want to make a video about how Polish signalling works. Comparison to those US-derived systems may be a culture shock for some people.
So many happy memories of that 10000 page safeworking book that had to be memorised.
For a while at the north end of Royal Park station, there was a stub of the Inner Circle line remaining. The signal protecting it looked like Red over Red with a small, lit Red. I couldn't find the meaning in any reference (although I didn't have anything official), so maybe the small Red was something separate. But the meaning was pretty obvious: Very Stop.
Interesting, was it a semaphore signal? I'll have to try to find a photo.
@@Taitset No, just a typical two-head plus small signal.
My borther was a driver in Sydney so I learned the signals there, only to discover Victoria was very different. So it was something I noticed as not normal.
@@mrewan6221 Found a picture here: www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/114987.jpg
Even though it looks like a red blob here, that bottom light is an illuminated red letter 'A.' This means the signal is switched out and operating automatically, despite being a Home signal. The 'A' only lights up when the signal is at stop, there's another picture here (a bit hard to see) showing it at green over red, with the 'A' turned off: www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/114487.jpg
To the right of the A is the Low Speed light, which is off in both photos.
This diagram: victorianrailways.net/signaling/completedia/fbridgecob72.html
Shows the signal as being equipped with an A, although it shows it in a different position.
There aren't many signals left like that, but there's one nearby on the up line at Macaulay.
@@Taitset I remember the signal as being on the stub. not the down Upfield track. But there's nothing on the diagram, so maybe I'm mis-remembering it.
I could well have walked to the down end of the up platform, if there was a good wait for the next train.
But equally, it could habe been a red A. Maybe my glasses didn't match my vision at the time.
The UK system seems a lot easier to understand. They have green, double-yellow, yellow & red. The double-yellow is used both for high-speed lines, to give extra warning that the next signal is at caution, and also to warn that the train is approaching points which are set to diverge.
"Yeah, but how fast can I go?"
Another great video taitset, is there any chance you could do another one of your marvellous videos on ‘catenary’ of the Melbourne suburban system or Sydney?
Keep the videos rolling mate, they are sooo goood! I love your videos so much.
Thankyou! It's possible I will do something about electrification eventually, it has a very interesting history here!
Cause you truly are covering all the juicy gunzel curious topics! But Melbournes catenary is very interesting, covering all the styles and different years of gantries and pylons, dead end stanchions, weights and pulleys. It’s a very beautiful and needed piece of infrastructure! Seriously your narrations and motion graphics with highlight colours and maps are perfect! Also could you do one on what station names should really be named, some stations in Melbourne are so incorrect it’s a sham! Like south morang should be called mill park, amd middle gorge should be called south morang 🙄, the people that decide these names are ridiculous. Theirs heaps of stations ! I can help you out… the correct geographical name should override regardless of historical context, Collingwood Stn should be Abbotsford, and Burwood on the Alamein line LOL!!!!
18:27 to 18:49 best bit of the whole video! (I might be a bit bias being from the UK)
Pretty sure theres a feather type route indicator at Tottenham on the standard gauge.
Its been a while since I've been through there though
As a train driver from Germany, these signals are very different to what we know. To me it is insane that a red signal can be passed under normal circumstances. Red always means stop and may only be passed when shunting and it is permitted by an additional signal (Sh 1) or when you get an order from the signaller to pass a signal at fault. To be honest, I prefer our precaution system, as a red signal automatically alerts you and it may not be passed on a normal train service
Canada has sort-of the opposite: "If it's not all red, it's not red at all", which means red lights are ignored if there is any green or yellow, either of which may be solid of flashing. The reds become place-holders so the viewer can see which whether the green/yellow light is top/middle/bottom. Yes, there are three heads on many signals!
If there are only two heads, and the upper one is red, an imaginary red head is added above, or if the upper head isn't red, an imaginary red head is added below. If there is only one head, two imaginary red heads are added above.
With six different aspects (red can also flash, which still doesn't mean "stop") and three positions there are a massive 216 different combinations. Some are not used, but all that are used have at least one real or imaginary red head. It's only the red/red/red, imaginary-red/red/red, and imaginary-red/imaginary-red/red signals that really mean STOP.
FMG use the CBTC system as well :) (well similar)
I wonder how cranbourne/pakenham trains using CBTC will interoperate with V/Line on that line.
The CBTC is operating in parallel with the conventional signalling, the signals just extinguish when a CBTC equipped train is approaching. You can see it happening in this video: ruclips.net/video/iRMzC5yPU_A/видео.htmlsi=7B7Yn24ZEf2G8m7C
This isn't too dissimilar to how signalling works in Auckland as I understand.
Though we have a blinking yellow signal as well. Blinking yellow over red means proceed at normal speed, next signal is caution normal speed. [and thus two signals from blinking yellow over red is red over red]
Yes, NZ signalling is very interesting and closely related to this! I might make a specific video about it at some point.
It's also similar to what's used a few hundred km further south, in Wellington. I think it's mainly speed based, but it's sometimes possible to infer a divergent route is to be taken, e.g. when pulling into a different platform to usual. The nearest station to where I live also has a nearby level crossing. Freight trains get a green signal, and the barrier ams etc get triggered sooner than for passenger trains, which get a red signal until the barrier arms go down, resulting in less disruption to road traffic while loading and unloading passengers.
@@richardvoogd705 That situation with the level crossing would be based on express/stopping, rather than freight/passenger specifically. We have the same thing in Victoria, it's either selected manually by the signaller, or chosen based on the train's behaviour at a previous location.
One thing I've never understood is why we do not use green over green for line speed. Everywhere else in the entire planet seems to have figured it out except for vicsig
We have the Candian CROR, CSX,NS, all using Green over Red or two reds, as the clear signal.
@@Big-Show1 simple answer is green. Over green is line speed. If you require any more information but a line you're travelling on, you can obviously use any combination lights you like. However, because the base you're using is not green over green, you're limiting the number of signal positions you have to work with
I’ve never been to the uk but the system is so simple I know it easily
Thank you - interesting!
Love your animator. You need to give them a raise!
Done!
Unsure if its still there but Sunbury has a feather too. Also plenty of them over on the Adelaide network.
Who's CBTC system is the tunnel using?
Bombardier Cityflo 650 I believe
What happens on the Standard Gauge lines .
It's the same - This system is used on all standard gauge lines in Victoria.
Does it happen very often that a driver must challenge the signaler about the routing shown?
I've seen it happen once or twice, not common though.
That's interesting. I just don't get the logic why when I'm told to go at full speed it isn't done with two green lights...
The top light is for normal speed, the bottom light is for medium speed - kind of similar to how multiple semaphore arms on one signal were used for different routes originally: only one arm would be cleared at a time and that told you the route that was set. Eventually in the USA, the separate semaphore arms were used to indicate different speeds rather than routes: or the top arm was used for the main line and the bottom arm for any sidings etc. SA and Victoria adopted this system starting from about 1912 in Adelaide. Not long later, lights were used as direct drop-in replacement for the semaphore arms, showing the same colours as the semaphore lamps did at night. So the system remained the same with the top light for normal speed and the bottom light for medium speed.
Interesting
Gosh, that seem seems super complicated. There must be a better way to arrange it these days
As a 41 year Melbourne Signal Maintenance Technician (retired), I agree with this video.
How on Earth have you been able to retire in your 40s? Does Metro Trains pay that well??
@@closeben 41 years of service. 1980 to 2021. Cheers.
Probably has changed drastically by now but how did you get into the job?
@@JJRol. Applied out of school. Form 4. about 16 years old.
Waves. 34 as a mostly Melbourne based SMT. 6 to go and I’m out early 🎉
As an irregular user of the Frankston line, this'll be very useful to know since Glenhuntly just opened and there might be some disruptions/delays. Seriously, this is one of my favourite youtube channels. Perfect mix of funny animations and interesting things that don't get a lot of media coverage :)
I'm an American that once worked for a railway here in the US. I think its very interesting how similar these signals are to the speed-signals in use here on our Northeast Corridor, and most of the CSX system for that matter. (you did say they're based of off North American systems after all). I really like learning about all the differences between signal systems, particularly between different continents.
Strangely, I worked under a route-based system (former Southern Railway) that uses almost the same aspects as the Victorian system. Where you said you can sometimes infer the route from the speed indication, on our system, that's exactly what we do. A red-over-green would be diverging-clear as opposed to clear medium speed. We could also have any color appear on the third signal head, not just yellow. This is to display a secondary divergence, such as where there's a high speed mainline crossover and a turnout to a lower speed branch line at the same controlled junction. A Red-red yellow would still produce a low speed signal, which we call restricted speed (prepared to stop within half your sightline, never exceeding 20MPH).
we would also have an advance-warning aspect, Advance Approach (yellow-yellow) meaning the signal after the next is red.
This was a mouthful but I hope some Aussies find this interesting :)
Sure did!
Sydney suburban driver here. This is hilarious how different the meaning of the same light combination in NSW and Vic. Big props to drivers that have made the transition from one system to the other.
My new signal knowledge actually proved useful the other day. The train my wife gets into work is an express through train and I always go with her as my daughters day care is nearby too. On the platform next to it is a terminus train which takes the same route 3 minutes later, but with more stops. Concerningly often, the express is delayed meaning the local train goes first, and since there are no passing opportunities for the express, it ends up stuck behind this train the whole way to the city. Usually, the station staff knows this is going to happen and announces to the platform for passengers to get on the other train if the express is delayed, since they'll end up being faster that way. The other day however, the station staff came out to this platform expecting the train. I noticed however that it did not have a green signal to go through, so I checked the other side, and sure enough that train had both green, and the 3 yellow lights indicating its path through the points, so I knew the local train was going first and told my wife to get on it. A few other people did this too, but most didn't and so they ended up missing that one and waiting for the delayed through train.
Probably only saved my wife maybe 3 minutes, but hey, it's 3 minutes, that's coffee time 😂👍
Hey Taitset! Great video on how signalling works on Victorian railways! As a fellow railway enthusiast, I found it fascinating to learn about the intricacies of the system in Victoria.
I'm from Queensland, Australia, and our railway signalling system is quite similar to the UK's. I was wondering if you could consider making a video about Queensland railways' signalling next? It would be awesome to see how it compares to the UK system and learn about any unique features that make our Queensland railways special!
Keep up the fantastic work, and looking forward to more exciting content from your channel! 🚂
Glad you enjoyed it! I certainly hope to do a QR signal video at some point, it's on my very long 'to do' list!
I've always wanted to know about Victorian train signals, and this video really helped me understand a lot more about it. Thanks Tait, as always, great content.
Love this.
Leaping in between Vic and NSW, I always have an easier time with the Victorian signals, especially much more so than those in NSW/Sydney.
The biggest beef I have in particular with the Sydney system is their normal speed warning; I reckon there should NOT be any display of green immediately before a stop signal!!!
I used this knowledge a couple of weeks ago to make sure I was on the first of two trains departing Ringwood when they pulled into platforms 1 and 2 simultaneously :)
You have done a great job explaining signals. The importance of safe working is drivers route knowledge... thats at the core of this. Kudos to all train crew in Australia. You people are very important to safety.
Great video. I loved your explanation.
As a Hunter Valley driver who uses both single and double light NSW signalling, the Victorian signalling has always confused me. I'll have to watch this a few more times to get a better grasp of it though.
Keep up the great work!
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it!
I would really like to see a vid of all of the unkept line promises, and possible lines and line changes in the future, real great vids and I love noticing all these features on different commutes!
A few days ago I got my hands on the hurstbridge heritage line film on dvd. By a steam media production but this was more into the semaphore and staff and ticket system.
Really interesting video! I had considered to a similar topic for a video myself, though focusing on the signals from the UK, as that's where I live. As you said, our system isn't overly complicated compared to some other countries, but there's still some interesting oddities to be found I'm sure. Maybe I'll dust off that idea someday when I feel like travelling again.
I hope you do! I did make a very basic UK signal explainer a few years ago: ruclips.net/video/MbdWtZx3VpU/видео.html
Good stuff. You're right that signalling around the world varies wildly. Here in the UK we seem to manage fine without variable speed signalling, but can't see how most of the rest of the world can manage without junction indicators!
lol it's all in the signal that precedes it.
I love watching videos of BR signalling and their use of 'Lunar lights'!
Having learned German H/V first, the lack of pre-signaling and red lights at proceed signals is clearly insane :)
So what I really get from this, is that train drivers can't be colourblind. I don't quite know why some lights use the same physical space where some separate out each light.
Correct, they can't be colour blind.
Victoria is too confusing. Way too confusing.
one day on the Frankston line in VR days a car was hit by a train at Mentone, they then ran trains down the wrong line crossing over at Cheltenham, running down the up track and crossing back at Mordialloc. I think this would have used a pilot-man who rides with the driver and no trains can proceed without the pilot. Sort of like a human staff.
I don’t think the private companies dare do that now and would stop everything and put people on buses. In those days the signal boxes were manned and the signalman could issue a wrong line order.
If you want an example of a signalling system that is truly bizarre, the French mechanical system would surely be near the top of the list. Most signals are boards that rotate around a vertical axis (semaphores are also used), there are multiple ways of indicating Stop (permissive and absolute), and speed restrictions apply from the first set lf points, not the signal. Trains may also be required to stop on a clear signal occasionally if the previous signal displayed a particular aspect.
Modern French light signals use the light aspects of the mechanical signalling.
Usually when i'm at my local station, when a train arrives to stop and pick up passengers it sometimes displays green over red (clear normal speed). Wouldn't it have to display stop because the train stops at the station? and do the signals display green over red for express trains when passing through a station?
In most cases, signals don't really have any bearing on whether a train stops at a station or not. There are some cases where a level crossing is close to the end of the platform, where the signal will stay red for an extended time as a stopping train pulls in to allow the crossing to activate later, but if there's no crossing, then the signal will be green is the route ahead is clear, regardless of whether the next train stops. (Might be able to explain more if you can tell me which station it is!)
@@Taitset Aah thank you. This clears it up!
As a brit, if you look any further than surface level for our signalling system the conciseness just falls apart - it's absurd how many quirks there are (mostly because the network is centuries old)
e.g.
Radio-Electric Token Block
Km/H speed boards & ETCS
TVM
SPAD Indicators
Flashing aspects
Up/Down tracks
Anderson's Piano
Semaphore signalling
the list goes on it's honestly amazing how the whole thing stays together!
Admittedly yes the first signalling system I've learnt but the PTA's (WA's urban network) does seem to be the simplest. It's primarily 3 aspect signals with Clear, Caution and Stop (plus the occasional shunt/dwarf) with speed boards and feathers instead of speed based aspects.
Do you know what the CBTC trains will show in cab to the drivers?
I'll also add that occasionally controlled signals are installed outside of junctions in order to have more signals that can be used as protection by track workers.
It’s so weird how the “traffic light” white border exists on Victorian train signals, but not Victorian road signals
Would make a difference?
This sounds like an overly complicated system, but as with all signal systems, once you get used to it, it's more a matter of remembering the patterns. Still find the German (all 5 generations), French, and Austrian systems the easiest to understand, and especially to drive by. The British system for the "real" trains is okay, but the system on the Underground is a mess that relies entirely on route knowledge instead of using logical signalling (I mean, their repeaters look identical to the main signals, which is not good for safety). I live in Denmark, where our current light signals were introduced in the 1960s and is only our second signal system. It's a very primitive system, really, with no pre-signals (repeaters, distant, whatever you want to call them) and wasn't designed for the speeds trains run at now, so they rely on ATC to tell the drivers what the signals are, because they can't see the signals in time when going full speed
I worked in IT for AMTL/Connex at Burnley back in the day when Norm Grady and Dale Rattle were running things there (22-23 yeara go now). At that time the desktop PC's were being upgraded to Windows 2000. However it was either and Amstrad or Amiga ( started with A I can't exactly rememeber) controlling the boom gates at Clifton Hill. They decided it was such a reliable system they wouldn't poison it with Microsoft.
Really awesome video
Personally I prefer the swiss type N where you have green for clear at line speed, green with number for clear at [number * 10km/h], yellow for prepare to stop, yellow with number for slow down to [number * 10km/h] and finally red for stop… pretty easy to remember and theoretically usable even on high speed rail or with reduced block lengths or any other weirdness. Additionally route indicators or voltage or gauge indicators can be provided too
Interesting vid, and please, DONT LOOK ON CZECH REPUBLIC SIGNALLING ITS SO COMPLICATED THAT YOU WOULD LIKE TO RIP YOUR EYES OUT!!!😭😭😭😭
I think you underestimate your community. I'd love that 12 video on signaling.
Or twelve part series...
i'm... _fine_ with victoria's signals, i do prefer systems that have more stages of warning, but the multiple aspects of medium speed are unique.
(incoming uninformed complaining)
what i cannot understand is the amount of variability in any system, i know for sure it isn't unique to Victoria. the Banner signals are distinct, they should perhaps be used for all co-actors, the amount of extra small lights are excessive, and the rules for ignoring otherwise un-ignorable aspects are obtuse.
i know these have been developed over a long period of time, but for critical operations, a driver shouldn't have to have an encyclopedia of the entire network operation to be safe. the exceptions should always be safe, not conditional. it can be done.
Sitting on my train home (Alamein line!) And its like a whole new world after i watched this today! 🎉🎉😮
Railway signalling systems are apparently all bonkers. Most do the red/yellow/green for stop/caution/clear (but neither NSW nor the german-speaking countries got that memo in time). Speed signalling is where basically everyone gets weird - the brits still don't do it _at_ _all_, you have to know the speeds for every turn.
And here: Red means stop. But if there is also a green light, it's clear. Unless the green light is below the red light. Erm? I don't really get why the lower red isn't just omitted.
I agree that Britain's signalling is easy to understand. Also, Japan is very straight forward. One that is seemingly counter-intuitive at first glance is Sweden - more green lights mean go slower, and all clear is a green over flashing white, (red means stop). But that's from a layman's view. If one is trained on the system, it becomes second nature, and there is certain logic to it.
Very interesting! Our signalling in Auckland is very similar. All the same basic indications, but slightly different names - Warning = Caution, etc. We use the same letter route indicators and banner indicators. No co-acting signals or repeaters. Low speed here is 25km/ with the same terms. Medium is 25 unless indicated otherwise. Usually 40 or 60, but ETCS sometimes allows EMUs to go faster than other trains like 30 over 25km/h turnouts. We don't have two reds after an occupied section and no medium indications before a red. ETCS applies a calculated speed limit curve on approach to a red or a lower speed limit and speed indicators hit other trains with a 20km/h limit when approaching a junction occupied by a conflicting movement. We have A-lights and offset (permissive) signals with similar rules, but applied in different ways. I do wonder whether there are equivalents to things we have like departure signals (governing entry to a block section when departing station limits) that a driver or signaller may describe differently to a layman. Even within the industry there's a broad spectrum of understanding of this system. In training even the tutors didn't all seem to understand or explain it in the same way.
One of the things you said and that some tutors say is the red means stop, which is intuitive and functionally correct in a sense, but when you get into the guts if it, red doesn't actually mean stop. It's just a placeholder. In reality, everything means stop unless you have a clear, legal and expected indication of a movement authority. Two reds is definitely stop, but one red and another colour is proceed. Any blank light is stop. Two greens or two yellows is stop. A proceed into a route you're not supposed to be taking is stop. All signals are stop until they're a legitimate proceed.
This signalling system is indeed very close to that of the US and Canada (not sure about Mexico). And they make my French brain hurt. Signalling here mostly looks like the UK's but with weird quirks. Great video!
I know French signaling quite well and I'm also used to it but it's much more complicated than British signaling.
speaking of Europe, does Italy adopt speed signalling?, their signals look like searchlights
@@anindrapratama Italy indeed uses searchlight signals however the aspects themselves don't actually work the same way. They don't have the same logic like other speed signalling systems do. There's a Wikipedia page which lists the various aspects and their meaning.
@@anindrapratamayeah Italy has searchlight signals and the system is similar to the victorian and North american one, as in there are red over green and red over yellow aspects, which you can't find anywhere else in Europe. In theory it's a speed signalling system, but not that flexible in the matter of speeds which can be communicated (only 30, 60, 100, line speed), and it's not used as pure speed signalling as the speed indication aspects are used basically only for diverging routes and for example shorter blocks than usual are indicated in other ways (with aspects which don't force a particular speed)
When I think of railway signalling in the Australian state of Victoria, I think of common railway signals used by Jacksonville, Florida-based railway company CSX on its lines, and explanations by Danny Harmon, the Distant Signal RUclips man.
Pretty simplified vs US NORAC signals 😅.
Is the Metro Tunnel signalling similar to that proposed for Brisbane’s Cross River Rail?
It is interesting that signals are not standardised like in NSW but many different shapes
Those 'feather' indicators are known as 'Lunar lights' in the UK!!!!
Blue and red both used for stop explains why Tait trains are red and Harris trains are blue - the VR thought they were the same colour.
Genius
Special trains & different signaling in the new tunnel sounds silly, everything should be the same = safer?
Melbourne is also now only just phasing in TPWS to some signals... Perth has had a variant of ATP since 92 supposedly, yet a train recently spadded a signal near Perth central and wasn't stopped immediately, as it would have been, under pure ATP. Pure ATP, whilst expensive, is the gold standard for a reason
We've had TPWS since the start of RFR (about 2004), but only V/line trains are fitted and it's only on a handful of signals in the suburban area on routes shared with v/line. All suburban trains have mechanical tripcocks, which do a pretty good job despite being old technology.
You should see Indonesian railway signalling, they're as easy as the british one!
Great video! I actually agree with you. I find Irish signalling the easiest (it's basically a simplified UK version!) and I actually find most types of Australian signalling really complex.
Nonetheless excellent video as usual!
If you really want signals for dummies there's how WA does it, 3 aspects green, yellow and red. Routes are done with feather indicators or illuminated characters in more complicated areas. For speeds it's sign posted.
@@hannahranga sounds exactly the same as Ireland except we have double amber on busy lines. Feathers tend to only he in the cities as well.
Hey Martin, this is a great explanation video, I’m still trying my best to remember all of the signal meanings.
Next I’d love to see an explainer on Victoria or Australian Railway Signs and what they mean.
Thanks, yes I have been thinking about doing one on signs!
Struth, no wonder I couldn't figure it out using logical observation.
Another great video from the narrator of railways!
Not confusing at all 🤯 You need a signal PhD. to drive there!
Hi Taitset, what do you know about 2 position Automatic Semaphores?
Only what I mentioned in the Diamond Valley Railway video! I don't think there's much more to know about them, as none were ever actually installed.
Im a train driver and just saying this is correct and explained well
A good example of this is at Box hill station, the track is triple track up to box hill. Express Blackburn trains often beat the Lilydale/Belgrave conterpart and appear at Box Hill at the same time as eachother, the display rarely ever tells you which leaves first (it's usually the stopping all stations train as the other one will stop at Blackburn Station 2 stops later anyways) but the signalling helps a lot if you don't regular Box Hill or on the off peak time when the Blackburn leaves earlier because the stopping all stations train is ahead of schedule and needs to wait at Box hill.
You put a lot of effort into making this video, thank you.
11:14 look to the left theres track with 7 rails and a light showing stop
Fantastic video! You did a good job when I learnt what the “S” and the “V” was between the gauge signals!
If time permits, I’d also be intrigued to see a Patreon only behind the scenes of how you did those sick animations of trains and blocks 😜
Yes I'm pretty sure that will be the next behind the scenes video!
@@Taitset Excellent, look forward to it!
how many signal manufacturers / brands exist in Vic?, in Indonesia the signaling is simple but different manufacturers make the signals look different
i personally don't know but if you look through the video u can find all kinds of signals (traffic light looking ones because the lights can only illuminate one colour, semafore which don't really exist anymore, normal colour light signals, etc.) knowing VIC the the stupid privatisation there is probably somewhere with a rlly stupid and out of place signal.
A friend of mine keeps telling me a joke about a driver calling up asking what to do about Red over Green and now I get the joke.
You should make a video on two position signalling too!
"very go"
Tait, your humour is as brilliant as it is subtle.
Another fantastic and fascinating video!
Thanks Will!
FYI Blue was added to the 1994 BOR in Revision 7 a few years ago.
Am I the only one who noticed that Coldstream is set on the Hitachi at 17:05? Is this an Easter egg or something, cause the station has been closed since the 80s??
Mechanical destination blinds usually included several 'what if' destinations that were thought to be likley extensions at the time. Hitachis also had places like East Doncaster and Melbourne Airport. Drivers often put them up for fun, although in that particular photo I might have just taken it while it was scrolling.
Very nice video. I for myself live in Germany and I have to say that the Victorian system seams to be much simpler than the German one, which uses more lights and different forms for distant and main signals. But for me this simplicity comes at a price. Namely the big safety hazard of driving through red lights. In Germany you would never drive through a red light. This is due to the fact that you could get used to driving when shown red. One might say that two red lights may be a clear indication but days can be stressful and you might just see one red light and think that the other one was green. Or even see both red lights but continue since you aren't trained to stop at red anymore. In addition this safety hazard can be mitigated quite easy, the second red light isn't necessary, it just indicates if the active signal is above or below. So just use an indication light instead of the red one. I would propose white since it is a neutral color and get the job done quiet well.
White really wasn't practical back when the system was invented, gets tricky to make it distinct from yellow especially when you're starting with gas/oil lamps on semaphore lenses.
Interestingly enough, some railroads here in North America do just that, where unnecessary red aspects are simply turned off. However, for slow speed and "restricted" (meaning proceed able to stop within visual range of any danger) indications the upper red light is still necessary. This system was originally created here for the old semaphore signals, and it was impractical at the time to have a specific marker aspect (the only options were horizontal stop, diagonal caution, and vertical proceed) so the "stop" aspect was used with the understanding that a train may not proceed in the absence of a clear "proceed" indication. Even early electric lighting technology (such as Position light signals and the US&S "searchlight" type signal) was limited to showing 3 unique aspects, and the least problematic solution at the time was to simply map the old semaphore aspects on to the new colored lights.
For someone who's currently trying to get into driving trains at a late career change, this information is invaluable and delivered so well
That signal at 0:52 in North Geelong is interesting. Looks like they've retrofitted LEDs to an older signal body.
Yep, there were even some semaphores that got LEDs around that area!
That Signal Body is one of few that I know of, they are quite rare from what I can tell. There is also one on both the entrance and exit to the Port of Portland (Both are incandescent still.) I've noticed both V/line and ARTC have done retrofits like that before, though Iirc they are getting removed and replaced more and more these days by modern brand new signal bodys.
@@Taitset are there any photos of those LED semaphores?
@@jimsmowingofficial Took me a bit of searching, but I have this one photo of one at Broadford with LEDs fitted: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bri7m88eg8w1jnunlmj0o/20120417-7035.jpg?rlkey=hfk3l3gay3k42b43d8mvdpqbs&dl=0
Same as Beijing for some reason.
lmao i thought you were talking about london victoria and got confused 😭
Haha! I was half expecting someone to think it was about the Victorian era actually.