In Greece we don't really pronounce Ancient Greek with the Erasmian pronunciation. We use the modern Greek pronunciation but we also know that in reality it must have been very different because of many phonological rules and shifts and phenomena. We know it's something like Erasmian, but not quite the same and definitely not everywhere over a span of millennia. So we use the modern pronunciation as a standard, but most people recognize that Greek was pronounced way differently in the past. In fact I could even tell you 20th/21st century sound shifts in modern Greek.
Hi Georgios, I've Learnt the greek alphabet and now i can't progress any further, Would learning the diphthongs help me Progress, any advice would be appreciated.
@@lindapestridge3073 Hey there Linda. When you say you can't progress any further, you mean in reading a text or in understanding it? Because depending on the pronunciation system you use, the way to read is different. If you use modern Greek pronunciation, the reading is simplified compared to the Classical Erasmian pronunciation. However the meaning of words is the same regardless of pronunciation, so whether you use modern or ancient Greek reading, the things you see mean the same thing. If there's anything specific you have a difficulty in, you can always ask me.
An important factor for the ignoration of the iota subscript in many countries' universities is it's disappearance relatively early. Even though it was still written, evidence shows its disappearance from pronunciation As early as the third AD century. As the dative case and the optative mood also often had the iota subscript, it became hard to distinguish their types (as you said, the masculine dative singular often has ῳ while the feminine has ῃ) and so eventually they were lost. They were replaced by periphrastic expressions with εἰς sometime in medieval Greek.
Excellent! Has really helped me understand how the breathings and the accent work with diphthongs. Where can I find examples of ancient texts read aloud correctly by Greek speakers?
This is a tricky debate, because many Greeks would find that the "correct" way of speaking is the one they use for Modern Greek. Moreover, Ancient Greek evolved substantially from Homer to, say, Koiné Greek, and the pronunciation changed a lot too. The pronunciation I use in my channel is from Classical Greek, which is the most used in universities across the globe. Greece, however, seems to have a different approach for different reasons. I have a couple of videos where I read Ancient Greek. For example, you can listen to me reading and translating a passage from Aristotle's Poetics here: ruclips.net/video/ORQYKEVPwD4/видео.html As for Greeks reading Ancient Greek texts, I found a video that shows the Apology of Socrates, but maybe this is not what you're looking: ruclips.net/video/bXxA2ea_Ojc/видео.html Let me know how it goes!
@@ChihonTeaches I’m only a beginner (at 83 years old!!!!!), but I have just reached the cusp of where I can begin to understand a bit of Homer and a bit of Plato in the original, and I’m delighted. It was incredibly hard work for me at first, but SO worthwhile! I’m delighted. I feel that if I can do it, anyone can - if they put in the initial effort, and STICK with it! I sympathize with Greeks: Erasmus was Dutch; I feel decidedly uneasy about his expertise on Greek pronunciation…. I may be superficial and ignorant, but…..isn’t it more likely that Greeks would have a better idea, even if ‘nobody knows for sure’ how it was pronounced??? Surely there is an evolution of the language within ‘Greekness’ that others are unlikely to grasp in fine detail? Just my uneducated thoughts.
@@dorothy-2930 This is amazing!!! I'm delighted to read about your passion for this language. As for the pronunciation issues, you can tell by the popularity of my videos comparing Ancient and Modern Greek that there's no perfect system. From my experience in academia, attending to ancient philosophy events with people from different countries, I can tell you that the pronunciation everyone uses is the one I teach here. On the other hand, some people outside academia, many of them Greek, tend to think that the language has remained intact since ancient times. This position doesn't seem very likely, and I try to build a case for having some distinctions. The evolution in Greek language indeed happened, but this is not something that most people are aware of, I believe. Greeks take mandatory Ancient Greek courses in school, but, in my experience, not many of them really want to engage with the ancient roots of their own language. However, the "Greekness" that you mention is certainly an advantage they have in order to understand the fine details of the ancient texts, an advantage that we, the non-Greeks, can only aspire to grasp from afar. In any case, thank you very much for your comments. Your example inspires me to keep making this kind of content. Please feel free to share more of your ideas and I'll get back to you as soon as I can!!!
@@ChihonTeaches Thank you, Chiron, your comments are very kind. For anyone who has a BIT of enthusiasm, and has started learning classical Greek, whatever their age, I would encourage them to STICK at it. DON’T GIVE UP! It doesn’t matter how SLOWLY you go. You will get it in the end! σπευδε βραδεως
The Erasmian pronunciation as it is taught in university-level Ancient Greek courses. I'm aware that even this is sometimes not fully accurate, but this is the way scholars learn and use Ancient Greek.
My dear friend here is a problem, even though you said that the diphthong has to make one syllable, you pronounce the diphthongs with two. For example you said "παίς" πα-ις and also you use the intonation in α not in ι as you should. And also the example of pronouncing the breathing on "α" is kind of unfortunate because there is not that kind of pronouncing "α" as "ha" its a lot lighter than that, but you made it sound like "χα". I guess though it's a matter of accent that gives that impression. Finally the Erasmian even though it's still used for educational reasons, it's no longer considered as a realistic reconstructed pronunciation. Have a nice day.
Thanks for your comment! I think you are absolutely right with the pronounciation of the breathing. My native language is Spanish, and you can tell that we all have the tendency to pronounce that "ha" harder than what English speakers would, or people well instructed in Greek. As for the diphthong in "pais", if I were to use the intonation in the iota, that would rather sound like two separate syllables, where the iota has the umlaut and the accent. By moving the sound towards the alpha, I'm trying to combine the stress of the sound into both syllables, but that's hard to notice when I'm just pronouncing quickly. And as for the Erasmian, you are absolutely right. It is actually beacuse of its educational use that I (and most universities in the world) use it to teach Ancient Greek. My goal in the channel is to help people wanting to learn the language in this standard way, especially if they are going to get a test in their schools or unis. Thanks again for your comment. Let me know what you think!
@@ChihonTeaches Thanks for your reply, I 'll agree about the pronunciation of the breathing in "ha", it's not a big problem after all. As for the diphthongs, the majority of those who are teaching the ancient Greek language, using the Erasmian or some of the more recent reconstructed pronunciations, actually do the same, but in reality this way, they cancel the meaning of both diphthongs and intonation. That's why some of the more Known linguists, lately put on the table the usage of the modern Greek pronunciation, especially when they are talking about Koine Greek, which in reality it's a lot closer than any other reconstructed pronunciation. Now if we talk about classical Attic, we need to accept all possibilities because most of the times there is more than one truth,. Many people believe that during the 5th century bc there was some kind of usage of an official (for the scholars) and a vernacular (for the less educated) language, as also Plato tell us in Cratylus (dialogues between Socrates and Cratylus).
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045 Precisely, you are 100% correct. My training is in philosophical Greek and I specialise in Plato. So from that you can get the kind of Attic Greek that I teach in the channel. I find that from Koine Greek onwards (and even from Hellenistic Greek onwards) the pronounciation very quickly starts approaching that of Modern Greek.
![Learn Ancient Greek: Introduction to Accents [SUB ESP]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/z8gTz051euU/mqdefault.jpg)
![Learn Ancient Greek: Introduction to Accents [SUB ESP]](/img/tr.png)
![Conversation: Ancient Greek vs. Modern Greek [SUB ESP]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vDojnOSporE/mqdefault.jpg)
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In Greece we don't really pronounce Ancient Greek with the Erasmian pronunciation. We use the modern Greek pronunciation but we also know that in reality it must have been very different because of many phonological rules and shifts and phenomena. We know it's something like Erasmian, but not quite the same and definitely not everywhere over a span of millennia. So we use the modern pronunciation as a standard, but most people recognize that Greek was pronounced way differently in the past. In fact I could even tell you 20th/21st century sound shifts in modern Greek.
Hi Georgios,
I've Learnt the greek alphabet
and now i can't progress any further,
Would learning the diphthongs help me
Progress, any advice would be appreciated.
@@lindapestridge3073 Hey there Linda. When you say you can't progress any further, you mean in reading a text or in understanding it? Because depending on the pronunciation system you use, the way to read is different. If you use modern Greek pronunciation, the reading is simplified compared to the Classical Erasmian pronunciation.
However the meaning of words is the same regardless of pronunciation, so whether you use modern or ancient Greek reading, the things you see mean the same thing.
If there's anything specific you have a difficulty in, you can always ask me.
Important comment!
Thank you Sir
You're welcome!!!
Very good lesson! Thank you!
Very clear and helpful video!
An important factor for the ignoration of the iota subscript in many countries' universities is it's disappearance relatively early. Even though it was still written, evidence shows its disappearance from pronunciation As early as the third AD century. As the dative case and the optative mood also often had the iota subscript, it became hard to distinguish their types (as you said, the masculine dative singular often has ῳ while the feminine has ῃ) and so eventually they were lost. They were replaced by periphrastic expressions with εἰς sometime in medieval Greek.
Thanks a lot for these comments!
I'd love to form a Greek poetry reading group, e.g. we could work through the Oresteia. Anyone interested?
Excellent! Has really helped me understand how the breathings and the accent work with diphthongs. Where can I find examples of ancient texts read aloud correctly by Greek speakers?
This is a tricky debate, because many Greeks would find that the "correct" way of speaking is the one they use for Modern Greek. Moreover, Ancient Greek evolved substantially from Homer to, say, Koiné Greek, and the pronunciation changed a lot too.
The pronunciation I use in my channel is from Classical Greek, which is the most used in universities across the globe. Greece, however, seems to have a different approach for different reasons.
I have a couple of videos where I read Ancient Greek. For example, you can listen to me reading and translating a passage from Aristotle's Poetics here: ruclips.net/video/ORQYKEVPwD4/видео.html
As for Greeks reading Ancient Greek texts, I found a video that shows the Apology of Socrates, but maybe this is not what you're looking: ruclips.net/video/bXxA2ea_Ojc/видео.html
Let me know how it goes!
@@ChihonTeaches I’m only a beginner (at 83 years old!!!!!), but I have just reached the cusp of where I can begin to understand a bit of Homer and a bit of Plato in the original, and I’m delighted. It was incredibly hard work for me at first, but SO worthwhile! I’m delighted. I feel that if I can do it, anyone can - if they put in the initial effort, and STICK with it! I sympathize with Greeks: Erasmus was Dutch; I feel decidedly uneasy about his expertise on Greek pronunciation…. I may be superficial and ignorant, but…..isn’t it more likely that Greeks would have a better idea, even if ‘nobody knows for sure’ how it was pronounced??? Surely there is an evolution of the language within ‘Greekness’ that others are unlikely to grasp in fine detail? Just my uneducated thoughts.
@@dorothy-2930 This is amazing!!! I'm delighted to read about your passion for this language.
As for the pronunciation issues, you can tell by the popularity of my videos comparing Ancient and Modern Greek that there's no perfect system. From my experience in academia, attending to ancient philosophy events with people from different countries, I can tell you that the pronunciation everyone uses is the one I teach here.
On the other hand, some people outside academia, many of them Greek, tend to think that the language has remained intact since ancient times. This position doesn't seem very likely, and I try to build a case for having some distinctions. The evolution in Greek language indeed happened, but this is not something that most people are aware of, I believe. Greeks take mandatory Ancient Greek courses in school, but, in my experience, not many of them really want to engage with the ancient roots of their own language. However, the "Greekness" that you mention is certainly an advantage they have in order to understand the fine details of the ancient texts, an advantage that we, the non-Greeks, can only aspire to grasp from afar.
In any case, thank you very much for your comments. Your example inspires me to keep making this kind of content. Please feel free to share more of your ideas and I'll get back to you as soon as I can!!!
@@ChihonTeaches Thank you, Chiron, your comments are very kind. For anyone who has a BIT of enthusiasm, and has started learning classical Greek, whatever their age, I would encourage them to STICK at it. DON’T GIVE UP! It doesn’t matter how SLOWLY you go. You will get it in the end! σπευδε βραδεως
You are pronouncing a voiceless velar fricative rather than the rough breathing. Common mistake Spanish native speakers make.
What pronunciation system are you employing?
The Erasmian pronunciation as it is taught in university-level Ancient Greek courses. I'm aware that even this is sometimes not fully accurate, but this is the way scholars learn and use Ancient Greek.
@@ChihonTeaches Thank you.
My dear friend here is a problem, even though you said that the diphthong has to make one syllable, you pronounce the diphthongs with two. For example you said "παίς" πα-ις and also you use the intonation in α not in ι as you should. And also the example of pronouncing the breathing on "α" is kind of unfortunate because there is not that kind of pronouncing "α" as "ha" its a lot lighter than that, but you made it sound like "χα". I guess though it's a matter of accent that gives that impression. Finally the Erasmian even though it's still used for educational reasons, it's no longer considered as a realistic reconstructed pronunciation. Have a nice day.
Thanks for your comment!
I think you are absolutely right with the pronounciation of the breathing. My native language is Spanish, and you can tell that we all have the tendency to pronounce that "ha" harder than what English speakers would, or people well instructed in Greek. As for the diphthong in "pais", if I were to use the intonation in the iota, that would rather sound like two separate syllables, where the iota has the umlaut and the accent. By moving the sound towards the alpha, I'm trying to combine the stress of the sound into both syllables, but that's hard to notice when I'm just pronouncing quickly.
And as for the Erasmian, you are absolutely right. It is actually beacuse of its educational use that I (and most universities in the world) use it to teach Ancient Greek. My goal in the channel is to help people wanting to learn the language in this standard way, especially if they are going to get a test in their schools or unis.
Thanks again for your comment. Let me know what you think!
@@ChihonTeaches Thanks for your reply, I 'll agree about the pronunciation of the breathing in "ha", it's not a big problem after all. As for the diphthongs, the majority of those who are teaching the ancient Greek language, using the Erasmian or some of the more recent reconstructed pronunciations, actually do the same, but in reality this way, they cancel the meaning of both diphthongs and intonation. That's why some of the more Known linguists, lately put on the table the usage of the modern Greek pronunciation, especially when they are talking about Koine Greek, which in reality it's a lot closer than any other reconstructed pronunciation. Now if we talk about classical Attic, we need to accept all possibilities because most of the times there is more than one truth,. Many people believe that during the 5th century bc there was some kind of usage of an official (for the scholars) and a vernacular (for the less educated) language, as also Plato tell us in Cratylus (dialogues between Socrates and Cratylus).
@@kalliaspapaioannou7045 Precisely, you are 100% correct. My training is in philosophical Greek and I specialise in Plato. So from that you can get the kind of Attic Greek that I teach in the channel. I find that from Koine Greek onwards (and even from Hellenistic Greek onwards) the pronounciation very quickly starts approaching that of Modern Greek.
buena Pashá, se detonó
Y agárrese que vienen más.
Qυέ ωεΝα