lol. Thank you. I agree. I’m thinking of doing an experiment with a coat and hacking a fake blood-filled head with quick clean up to see how long it takes. If so I’ll definitely upload that video.
@@bigprettyman3795 ewww.. lol ok yah l would watch that too.. mainly for the results.. l said that on another thread.. that she covered herself with her fathers coat.. maybe a scarf for her hair..? easy clean up since they had a cistern..
A thought just occurred to me about how the COMPLETE absence of blood on Lizzie after the murders happened may actually speak to her guilt instead of her innocence. If you read the Q&As of the Inquest Lizzie claims after she found her father she did not know if he was dead or not. (Yet she immediately ran to the bottom of the stairs and yelled up at Bridgett (Maggie) that someone had come in and killed him. She did not start screaming at her father desperately wanting a response from him. No effort for or hope of his survival is made or even claimed to have been made.) I think most innocent people if they walked in and to their utter surprise saw a loved one beaten and/or stabbed to a bloody mess would rush to their aid and thereby get blood on them and because they are truly innocent would not be concerned about blood getting on them and making them look guilty because their primary concern is helping their injured loved one. However, a guilty murderer would go to the lengths of making sure they are completely blood free as Lizzie was (minus the small speck on her undergarment).
I mentioned this in one of my videos. She didn’t panic or run as she would have no idea if the killer wasn’t still in the house. She saw her father just 15 mins before alive and well and now his head is chopped in and blood running. Yet she announced her presence and calls for the maid! It’s as though she knew she was in no danger. Also, as Dr Bowen pointed out, she DID change clothes not long after police arrived, and nobody was going to strip check a Victorian lady.
@@bigprettyman3795 yeah, that’s one question I’ve often had that why Lizzie stayed in the house after finding her father slaughtered in the sitting room. Who would stay calmly inside a house coming upon a situation like that? Anybody but her would be in fear for their life! She knew she was not in danger staying inside.
Very good points! I've always wondered how Lizzie could stay in that town with everyone ostracizing her. Now I think it's because she wanted to live on that hill so badly with the prestige and all! Naming her place Maplecroft says it all. Moving to another town where no one knows her wouldn't have fulfilled her dream of prestige in that town where she was known and felt belittled in the past knowing she was living below her means.
@@louisdifranco9633Emma didnt leave their new mansion, Maplecroft , until 7 yeats later. Altho' 5 years after the murders, she confided to a church minister that Lizzie's scandalous parties with actress Nance O'Neil were a bone of contention between the sisters. Actresses were regarded as almost on a par with sexworkers back then. Genteel ladies did NOT socialise with actresses.😂
Loved all your videos on Lizzie Borden. I've always thought she did it. I like how you systematically accounted for everything using logical thought and fact. And am now going to have to try to find the court transcripts to read.
there's @ lot of vi@ble inform@tion th@t w@s thrown out. first, during the interrog@tion, they s@y, lizzie contr@dicted herself fifty times. but it w@s thrown out bec@use she didn't h@ve her l@wyer with her. @lso, the b@rn loft @libi, w@s thrown out. i don't know why though.
Great video series. Love to read or watch anything about the Borden murders. I've even been on a tour of the house in Fall River Mass. Oddly one of the best documentaries on Lizzie and The Borden's out there was made in 1994, from a series called "Country Lawyer".
Excellent ! I do think if Emma was tired of the publicity and Lizzies party lifestyle she still would have kept in touch as opposed to not even speaking for 30 years
We’ll never know. People have varying relationships of intensity and sensibilities. Whereas leaving wouldn’t cause a permanent rift between me and my siblings, considering how close they had been all their lives Emma’s decision to move away could have brought on a parting argument that ended their relationship. Could be Lizzie saw it as an abandonment and rejection of her closest confidant in life. Odd, but families have parted over less. Also, once again we must apply Victorian standards and sensibility. Could be Lizzie’s ‘party lifestyle’ with what was seen as low-lived was such a shame Emma felt obligated to condemn her. However, I see no proof of a lesbian relation causing. It could have, is a possibility of course, but no evidence. This just extreme speculation. In the end, only the sisters know, and they been dead nearly a century.
As a (former) licensed private investigator, having seen the Elizabeth Montgomery movie, I lean towards the theory that Lizzie did it in the nude. If she had put a coat over her clothing, what happened to the coat. You'd think it would have been covered in blood! Additionally, if it was an intruder, why wasn't anything stolen. Very good video. Thank you.
Impossible to have done this in the nude. She wouldn’t have time to strip, kill him, wash and redress in that 19th century dress. In less then 15 mins? No. The coat stuffed under his head was saturated in blood. Don’t know what they did with it.
Thank you. I've immensely enjoyed your very informative presentation about this case. I appreciate that you go over the time period and it's mores and sensibilities. It is vital that all who study this or any other historical case to understand how people thought in certain eras. We cannot apply 21st century attitudes to late 19th-early 20th century attitudes. I'd like for you to go over other past cases, especially from the more recent past. The OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, West Memphis Three, etc.. come to mind. Oh, and the 1993 and 2005 Michael Jackson cases too. I think we'd all appreciate your insights!
Thank you for the compliment. It’s a similar case and has been noted several times. I was alive during those eras. Not nearly the difference as between Victorian and the 21st century. However, it is interesting and I’ll give it some serious thought.
@@bigprettyman3795I've watched all your Lizzie Borden videos and some of them I've listened to twice! I really appreciate the scholarly approach to this case as well as your speculations based on the evidence. I hope you do other cases in the future. I've started to listen to your Jack the Ripper video too. One thing I wish the Victorians had was modern forensics! But alas, they did the best with what they had, I suppose.
There's something else I wonder about. Lizzie took out the ironing board in front of the maid to iron handkerchiefs but said to police she was waiting for irons to heat on the stove. Next to Abby is a handkerchief on the floor. Abby won't be holding one to make a bed. Lizzie might distract Abby with a question about a handkerchief.
@@bigprettyman3795 something else makes me wonder. Lizzie can't risk a confrontation and have a struggle for the weapon. It has to be a surprise. Handkerchiefs are in a laundry basket. Put the weapon in the basket, cover it with the handkerchiefs, bring it upstairs and ask a stupid question, and Abby turns her back to finish her work, quickly put the basket down, pull out the weapon, handkerchief comes out with it, it's over.
Hey Big Pretty. Love your channel and I'm fascinated by this case. You make a pretty solid case with great observations. One thing i would love to hear about is the other axe killings that happened in the same town around the same time that were never mentioned. Additionally, an alleged 'side door'. You stayed in the home, did you see a side door? Also, do you really think she had the physical strength to bash them in the way she did? Id love to hear more about these and also how could she clean herself up twice without noticing. Oh yes and lastly, was there a son??? Can't wait to watch more videos ❤
A child with an hatchet or iron could have based their heads in. That’s what a hatchet is made for. I cut wood with one at five, so a 32 year old stout woman wouldn’t have an issue.I saw no side door except the one by the kitchen. I’ve explained how she did the clean ups in my videos. She had an hour after her mother. Her father was likely the coat and a headscarf easily tossed in the stove.
@@bigprettyman3795 hey, I'm new to your channel so I didn't see all the videos yet. I came across another video speaking about a son, so I thought I would ask. Must've been cool to stay in the house, was it creepy? Cheers
I think Bridget laid down cause she wasn’t feeling good. But perhaps she often did lie down at that time. Highly unlikely being 26 years old tho? But I think Lizzie encouraged her to lie down. After she tried to get her to leave the house to shop at the fabric dress store that was having a sale. Bridget didn’t go cause she wasn’t well
You know, the more I learn about the known Borden family dynamics the worse Emma looks. Whether she played any role in the murders or not, her hatred of the step mother was certainly instilled in Lizzy from an early age. She also would have known how unstable and impressionable her little sister was. This alone leaves me to assign some blame to her. Remember, Manson didn't kill. His impressionable followers did.
And you base this on what documentation? Where is a doctors report Lizzie was unstable and impressionable. Where is a letter or interview showing Emma had such hatred of Abby? In fact it’s contrary to known sources. Interviews with people who knew them said Lizzie was stubborn, socially conscious and strong willed, not impressionable. Emma was demure, introverted and quiet. Where’s the evidence beyond tv movies and bad documentaries to support any of this? Thus I must dismiss this as wild speculation, hearsay, and fiction,
When Lizzie went to Europe with her rich relatives her father began to look very undesirable.She wanted that house on the hill really bad. This is about greed and materialism.Doing it the way she did she had time to clean up .Also she could pace it to where it was one at a time.She was very cunning. She got by with it.
He paid for the trip, and she was well taken care of with a high standard of living. She likely did it out of fear of her father dying and her step-mother controlling the purse strings. It put her in an untenable and desperate position.
The molestation crap makes me so beyond mad. I’ve seen people using Lizzie giving her father a ring when she graduated highschool which he wore literally to his death as proof he saw her as like a wife or the door between her and Andrews room having a dresser by the door was to stop him getting in. And like people seem to forget Andrew is a victim here. This man was brutalized in his own home potentially by a daughter he loved and doted on. He never received justice and what do people do? Twist the narrative so he’s at fault for his own death in the most vile way. RIP Andrew and Abby Borden I ain’t buying any of this sorta crap
1 thing bout the maid she disappeared after lizzie was acquitted and when she was found again she had all this wealth and land and lived in another state this info came from the borden house when u visit
FALSE. Bridgette had no wealth, moved to Butte, Montana and worked as a maid for a judge. She married a man also named Sullivan, and lived out her life quietly in Montana. At the time of her death she had the modest savings of working woman. This is another of these baseless rumors that is defeated by facts, records and bank accounts. If the Lizzie House is giving that false info then that employee should be reprimanded and/or terminated. Always Recheck and question your sources.
BigPrettyMan, I believe that there was a pay off for Bridgett , I think she like Emma knew after the fact ,Bridgett at the trial didn't hurt Lizzie , but she didn't go out of her way to help her either ,Lizzie and Emma didnt want her returning to Fall River and talking .
Possible, but contrary to the evidence. We know she did not witness Abby’s murder, and if she was witness to Andrews murder she did a hell of an acting job and upheld her lie through several rounds of intense questioning by Knowlton without cracking. I find both hard to accept and highly unlikely. Also, we don’t have proof that the Borden’s paid for her trip home. That’s just speculation and rumor, and some even claim she never went to Ireland. We have no idea the amount of money she had saved. She could very well traveled on her own expenses. Though I believe it likely the Borden’s financed the trip if it indeed happened, we’ll never know for sure who paid for it or their motivations.
I wrote what follows before finishing your video, and now see you addressed many of the things I've said. We've come to the same conclusions, although all we have is speculation and common sense to guide us. Abby was the only one who took care of the guest bedroom, not Bridget, so she was safe there. Bridget had no reason to come up the front stairs because she also didn't take care of either Emma or Lizzie's rooms. Emma was out of town and out of the way, so that helped. She also had to somehow get first Abby and then Andrew alone to kill them, and that opportunity presented itself that morning, helped by Abby asking Bridget to wash the windows so she too would be conveniently out of the way. I think Uncle John, Bridget, and Emma all knew more than they admitted to. Not that they were in on it, just that they knew something was building to a head between Lizzie and the senior Bordens, so it wasn't that much of a surprise when this happened, and/or easily figured out she'd done is very soon afterwards. Bridget knew how tense things were, and could have testified to it, but didn't. That's what I think she meant when she told her friend she'd helped Lizzie out, if that really did happen. I think it's also why, or partly why, Lizzie protected her. I agree something happened that set her in motion. For certain she had this plan when she went the night before to set the stage and told her friend Alice Russell all that wild nonsense about fearing something bad was going to happen. IMO it had something to do with Andrew's will or estate. Something she found out, either overheard or some way, that he was planning to not leave the sisters enough, or, leaving Abby what she considered to be too much.
I agree. Though as you said, we’ll never know what set her off, nor how much the people in that house knew or suspected. I think you are correct in they may have seen this coming, or at least weren’t as shocked at the occurrence, but I think we are looking more at possible collusion after the fact than conspiracy
@@bigprettyman3795 Yes, I agree. For me it's probable collusion after the fact, but not conspiracy. Because Uncle John behaved so strangely, noting too many unusually specific details on his ride back to the Bordens, and claiming to not notice a number of people in front of the house, I think he knew more than anyone else and provided himself with an alibi - just in case he needed it.
@@bigprettyman3795 This may not be of any great consequence but I just realised Lizzie had to have used one or more mirrors to check her appearance after killing Abby, and again after killing Andrew. She'd have to make sure there were no visible blood spots on her and that she appeared as she usually did. There was a mirror in the guest room in the vanity on the north wall. Most likely another in her bedroom, and perhaps one in Emma's room. But what about downstairs? She'd have to check herself in one after killing Andrew, too, before calling Bridget. It'd be interesting to know which, if any, downstairs rooms had mirrors and if there was one in the cellar (doubtful, doesn't seem to be any reason for one down there). There could have been one in the sitting room, and possibly the dining room. Any thoughts on this?
I read an article once that claimed Andrew's illegitimate son was the killer. I agree with you regarding Abby trusting the person who entered the room where she was killed. Your idea of the heavy coat being used as a blood shield for Lizze makes sense. As far as food poisoning ... August, no sanitary plumbing, well-water ... Deaths from Dysentary and Typhoid fever climbed during the warm months during that era.
Just a note on food safety. It is very possible for food to go off from one day to the next, even less, if the temperature is not cool enough, or hot enough to keep bacteria from growing. My grandmother showed me how it was done in the old days, with stew or broth in particular. You had to hard boil the food for a few minutes, then leave it covered where it could cool down promptly, and you must not open the lid or stir the food, take any portion out, until it would be served again (let's say from dinner til next day breakfast or lunch), properly heated again.
They had an icebox. Also,they didn’t have the broth for breakfast. They had oatmeal, eggs, sausage, johnnycakes and pears. So the food poising from the lamb broth is a misinformed myth.
@@bigprettyman3795 Oh, I fully agree that it could have been something else entirely., as I am open to other possible scenarios in this case. Especially coming from you, that have annalised this case so meticulously and objectively. I left the comment because I have observed a rise in the interest in true crime by the younger generation, who consume the modern foods full of preservatives, albeit not by choice, as everything has them, nowadays. They are also less involved in the food preparation, compared to then. The intention was to remind people out there that food back then was much more vulnerable to decay and bacterial contamination, and had to be handled in a different and more complicated manner to avoid illness and waste.
@@bigprettyman3795the testimony I read from Brigid Sullivan. "For breakfast there was some mutton, some broth and johny cakes, coffee and cookies. The broth was mutton broth "
Sure enjoyed your videos, and all the comments. Always wondered if Lizzie replayed the murders in her mind. Every day she had to think of what she had done. Some people tune it out ?
Omg… Love this video!! Glad you’re revisiting this AGAIN. I have some theories and reasons here based on all three of your videos on your theory/theories of Lizzie Borden 1. Some people think that Lizzie burned that dress because of the blood. Perhaps she wore that coat to cover up some of the blood and there was too much to the point she had to wipe some of the blood off with her dress and she either blamed it on paint or her period blood. 2. Most people thought that the murder weapon at first was a meat cleaver, and John Morse was a butcher, and I think there was a period of where there was 90 minutes where we don’t know what he was doing or where he was. Plus, he looks very suspicious so😱😱 He also supposedly remembered SIX men on the trolley(if that’s how you spell it) and their names, the numbers on their sashes, and on their hats I believe. 3. There’s a theory about the “wild-eyed man” aka most likely William Borden, who was Andrew’s bastard son and was trying to get a part in/of his will, and was angry at Abby for taking his mother’s place. He came in and killed them and suddenly “ran off” or something (I’m going by my memory rn), but nobody saw him leave or run off? That’s weird. 4. Bridget disappeared right after the murders and by the time of her death, she owned a farm and some other stuff, and was a pretty wealthy woman. Perhaps she was paid to leave or had a boost in money given to her. Amazing video though!! It had a lot of information.
Also, Bridget wasn’t allowed to go on the second floor and first floor(I believe) because they didn’t trust her enough, that’s why she was in the attic. The Borden women were the ones to clean the second and first floors; that’s why Abby was in the guest room making the bed and fixing the pillows.
I'm so happy you enjoyed the video and I hope you watch the prior two videos I made on Lizzie Borden. I agree with many things you've said and they have been in my two prior videos on this subject. However, there are a few issues here I can address. The weapon was most likely a hatchet, and I doubt a meat cleaver due to the width of the wounds. However an interesting theory holds it may have been one of those old-fashioned stove-heated irons. That may fit as the blows are more bludgeoning than cutting. An old fashioned iron would do that, whereas even a partially dull hatchet with its wedge blade should go right through the heads instead of just the shallow but crushing wounds on one side of the head. Definitely a strong possibility I feel. John Vinnicum Morse was a farmer and horse trader. He moved to Iowa and did well in life, leaving a nice sum of money in his WIll. Ive read nor heard nothing of him ever being a butcher, but I will check into that. As I explained in the video, Morse' memory of that day was proven true, showing her was there. As i said, less distractions back then, and he may well be the type that has that kind of memory. His niece confirmed he was visiting with her around 11am, making it impossible he killed Andrew, and obviously these crimes were done by the same hand.There is no proof for a bastard son named William Borden,. The only William Borden that can be found was of no direct relation. If you check the directory of Fall River for 1892 you'll find a ton of Borden's. They were an old prominent family in that town with many, many branches.This ridiculous story of a bastard son that liked hacking horses with his axe, walked around covered in horse-blood, and talked to his axe like a person comes from a Lizzie Borden book from the 90's that is complete bullsh*t. Bridgett actually began working for another family in a nearby town after the murders. Many say she went back to Ireland for awhile, though no travel logs prove this. By 1897 she was living in Anaconda, Montana, where she married a man named John Sullivan and worked as a domestic servant for a Judge in that town. She died far from wealthy. She moved in with her niece towards the end of her life. Her niece said she left about $3000 in life savings ( equivalent to about $36,800 in today's money). Not a bad sum for 1948, and one that would be expected from a working servant, but far from mansions and riches.
@@anna4040 Very correct. Thus Lizzie would have known that Bridgett would never find the body in the guest bedroom. Bridgett used the servant stairs off the kitchen in the back.
Speaking of murderous women, Patricia Krenwinkle, who killed one of the Tate-Sebring murders, and Leslie Van Houghton (just released from prison) who stabbed to death Leo Lobianco (spg).
It's my understanding as well that Lizzie at one point was encouraging Bridget to go out for a dress goods sale. I believe it was earlier in the morning, before the murders.
According to Bridgett’s testimony, she said she and Lizzie discussed in typical morning small talk about a sale in some fabric at a local store, and Bridgett said she responded by saying she planned to purchase a few yards.
@@bigprettyman3795 Just seems to me one more attempt to get Bridget away, if possible. Could even underline premeditation. Excellent breakdown of this case!
Blood ? Now the household did not have modern plumping a kitchen hand pump. And wash basins special after killing the father. No blood trail. Splatter trail ? Now if she was guilty. The maid had to see a lot. Was there valuables on the victims special the father experiment. Try washing blood just on hands. Face sleeves hair. With the instruments to clean up in the house. It would be very very hard
Need not be much of a blood trail. They did have running water in the basement, and I worked as a nurse for years. Blood, if not dry, washed off skin quite easily. Never had an issue.
Also, re-watch the whole of my videos. The police did not examine her. Such things were not done to a Victorian lady of 1892. So blood could easily not be seen.
@@bigprettyman3795 Someone had to have a clue about this in the house. You don't get two murders in a small house at least an hour apart and not know anything about this. It's so odd. That's why this story is so interesting.
As I talked about in this video, Only Lizzie and Bridgett were around, and Bridgett was outside for Abby’s Murder, and wasn’t allowed in the upstairs bedrooms, said that in her testimony. And of course, Lizzie knew that. With Andrew, she knew his routine of taking a nap before dinner. Now if Bridgett took the same siesta before lunch as part of her regular routine then that answers it all. If I could ask Bridgett any question, it would be that; 'Did you take a short nap like you did that day on a regular and routine basis?" It would answer most of my questions on Lizzie MO on this murder.
I have heard that the maid did not clean the front upstairs part of the house where Lizzie’s room, , Emma’s room & the spare room were located. She was not allowed up there. This would explain why Abby was the one to go up and change the pillow cases in the spare room. Lizzie would not have been worried that the maid would go up there.
I think the slaughtering of Lizzies pigions had alot to do with it. Andrew chopped the heads off, and Abbey told Brigette to cook yhe, and Brigette refused. I think Lizzie tried to cut their heads off. Imo
Fake story. Lizzie didn’t have pigeons. Truth is they got in his barn and was shitting on his hay. So he killed him. The rest of that story is urban legend gossip that’s pure fiction.
If she just wanted the money she could have poisoned them-one way or another- The rage that she showed on these attacks make me feel like there was some kind of sexual abuse--especially in those times- maybe some kind of indiscretions or liverties he would have with her- and complicity from her step mother-
No evidence of such abuse, and this speculation wasn’t proposed until the late 70’s and 80’s, when the church molestation charges and missing children became hot topics. Throughout the last 130 years Lizzie Borden has become a blank slate for every social and feminist issue. None reflect the real Lizzie Borden or her motives.
the m@nner of the murders, it's person@l. it's very person@l. nothing w@s stolen. reg@rding sexu@l @buse, & murders, the mother @lw@ys gets it worse. well, this mom got more w@cks. she @lso got it first. like, she's the m@in one lizzie w@nted to get @t. & d@d got it b/c he w@s the @buser. mom didn't protect them. the sisters m@y h@ve considered themselves...d@m@ged goods, which could be why they wouldn't m@rry. then it would be exposed. i'm t@king this info. from other c@ses i've looked @t.
I think she (Lizzie) overheard a conversation between Uncle John and Andrew and Abby, about their Mother's property I think was in Swansea , and Andrew was going to sell the give the property to Abby'in his will , now that would , seems to me, be the thing that would have set Lizzie off ,she took advantage of Bridget being outside, and Uncle John and Emma was gone , opportunity and motive, if the deaths had been reversed , Andrew killed first , Abby would have inherited the property and everything else , so Abby HAD ddto be killed first from a legal standpoint .
Interesting theory and possible, but no evidence. I can see that collusion with Emma , but I honestly don’t think from her testimony and actions that Bridgett had a thing to do with it. Lizzie seems to have made sure Bridgett wouldn’t find the body. In fact from the transcripts and statements from her later Montana family it seems that Bridgett was severely traumatized by seeing and finding the body that affected her the rest of her life. I think the sending her to Ireland was more compassionate than cover up. With Lizzie found innocent I think they feared that being Irish they may try to accuse her as a scapegoat and condolence prize.as by Bridgett’s own statement the 3 women liked each other, and I think they paid for her to go home to protect her. Think that makes more sense.
I believe that Bridget would have been unlikely to have gone up the front stairs to the front bedrooms as she was not responsible for those rooms. Lizzie and Emma took care of their own rooms and dress closets themselves and Abby may have saw fit to tend to the guest room herself. The parents and Bridget’s rooms were off of the back stairs, with Bridget being up and n the third floor.
That’s not belief that’s actually stated in her testimony and in the transcripts. She didn’t attend the upstairs rooms. That limit was common for servants of the time.
John Morse visit was planned , had a letter from Andrew asking him to come for a vist to discuss business of buying cattle. John had money of his own he owned land and cattle.
The iron makes much more sense. Especially with Abby. She set Lizzie off and turned and resumed cleaning and then boom. Makes total sense man. and then thinking:"oh shit no, this wasnt supposed to happen like this."
what's really sad, is that in the many comments I've read on various videos re this case, is that most still don't want to blame Lizzy simply because she was a woman. Why does the uncle keep getting thrown in there? He wasn't there when it happened, his alibi was rock solid! But because he was a man, and stayed there, then of course it must have been him?! Ffs! The people going down that route, would make lousy and lazy detectives. Women can be extremely violent. There were women even long before the Victorian era who committed horrific acts of violence, yet still people can't seem to grasp it. They just don't want her to be guilty, but she was. She was the only one there, she was a greedy money hungry selfish woman, and she got everything she ever dreamed of after Abby and Andrew were dead. She got off because they were severely lacking in forensics and fear of searching her or her room lol she easily could have axed her father, got rid of the weapon and composed herself in time to call Brigitte. It wouldn't have taken her long to hack into him, and if she used the coat, fold that, then go check to see if blood had got on her anywhere then quickly cleaned up. Someone needs to re enact the crime. Of all the videos I've seen, not one person has attempted to re create this, to see how much time was needed and how she avoided getting blood on her. She wasn't exactly petite either
It's not just about gender, socioeconomic status was part of the mix. The Bordens were not only respected members of the middle (upper-middle?) class. Lizzie's family was part of a larger well- off, well-known clan in Fall River.
What’s your documentation? An arrest? A complaint? No. Nothing documented except the painting incident after the murders, and even that’s ambiguous.because William was not his son. Plenty of research has shown that. Even if he were, the scenario of him coming to the house at 9am on a busy sunny Thursday with 3 people home, killing Abby, waiting in the house and the killing Andrew and doing this and escaping escaping unseen by Bridget, Lizzie and the neighbors is a ridiculous theory. That’s why I don’t speak of him. He’s of zero consequence.
I read in a book that a combination of Lizzie having her period, epilepsy and extreme heat-maybe she was in a fugue state when the murders happened. I didn't believe it-because she didn't get caught.
How could they conspire if they didn’t know uncle was coming because he just pops up Also I’m not convinced she was guilty partly because if her father was found just about right after he was killed she would have been out of breath, out of sorts from all the axe 🪓 swinging, I’ve never heard that she was breathing heavy or anything when she called for Bridget , to me she just wouldn’t have had time to “ cool down” after the killing
True on Uncle John as far as we know. Though little proof they did or didn’t know of his visit, and the conspiracy could just be Emma leaving town to be out of the slaughter. Or Emma knew nothing and Lizzie used it as her que to act. Either is possible. In truth we have reports that she was somewhat agitated when Bridget came down. She sent her immediately across the street. Remember it took her less than a minute to hack him to death. She wasn’t cutting up a tree for winter firewood. Thus she had another 10-15 mins to place the coat, wash her hands and face then call to Bridgett. No reason she would be out of breath. I have little to no doubt she did it. In truth, according to the timeline and the fact she STAYED IN THE HOUSE ALONE not knowing if the killer was still there and acting as though she knew was in no danger all point to only one logical conclusion: Lizzie Borden killed her parents, and under these circumstances, is the only one who could have done so.
@@Billygoatsgrruff a common practice at the time. They believed women had sensitive nerves and prescribed morphine, cocaine and laudanum( opium extracts in alcohol) for everything from headaches to ‘hysterics’. You could buy it like Tylenol in the drug stores.
No. She was accused of stealing two small paintings after she had gifted them to a friend and the receiver took one back to the shop for repairs. The store said they hadn’t been purchased, but Lizzie claimed she had paid for them. The charges were dropped. Whether it was shoplifting or the stores clerical error is unknown. This is the source of the rumor she was a shoplifter. There is no other evidence she was a shoplifter.
Love your coat theory! You mentioned that the outside door was the only way in to the cellar. This is not correct as Bridget says in her court testimony that she locked the cellar door from the inside and used the inside access to collect wood, do the wash and use the privy.
Your video was great to watch and in my opinion she did it or she was definitely involved. I believe this case was botched from the start and there was no type of DNA and forensics at the time. 1892 or 2022 she still would have been acquitted or hung jury but not found guilty because of the evidence provided.
Completely agree. They tried her based on the burnt dress and the defense kicked that out thoroughly. With her inquest transcript ruled inadmissible and no forensic evidence she had to be found not guilty.
A very good question. I’ve heard such a fishing trip was happening with either the church or one of the institutions Lizzie participated, but forget the details.
What uf she paid someone to do it? Witnesses saw a suspicious man walking around the house that morning. I think Bridgette knew about it too i think Abby was already dead when she went out to wash windows..so people would see her outside.
No economic forensics evidence of a paid hitman. A paid hitman would use a gun not an axe or iron, no evidence of Bridgette’s involvement or a possible motive, According to blood evidence Abby was alive when Bridgette went out, and the so-called man lurking outside was a rumor from decades later. This is all blind speculation without a leg to stand on. Try again and base it on something within the evidence or it’s speculative fiction.
Something else that bothers me is...why do the murders at all? These were elderly people, especially in this period of time. Why not just let them live out their last few years? Unless the worry was that the father would die first? Still, what was the rush? Did anybody ever find out if AJ Borden had a will at all? It would seem like he did have a will with his age and wealth...
No will. Why do it? Because her father was elderly and no will. He was about to turn 70 and at that time most men died in their 60’s. She knew he was on borrowed time and by law his money would be controlled by her step-mother, for whom both didn’t get along. She’d be dependent on her, as a woman of her social rank wouldn’t work. And what could she do? Become seamstress or a maid to wealthy friends? The step-mother had to go, and it seems in her impulsive kill she knew her would know she did it, so rather than face him and be disowned and possibly gang, she killed him too.
Interesting you ask that as I just read an article about it. At that time birthing was the domain of midwives. Mostly for that propriety issue, but it was in this late period that the professional male doctor began exerting more intimate control.
No. The maid, Lizzie were home and Mr Borden and Uncle John left around the same time around 8am The blood evidence showed Mrs Borden died around 9-9:30am.
Just a thought: The most common theory as to why Emma severed all ties with Lizzy at Maplecroft a few years after the murders was her lifestyle and possible lesbian affair but consider another possibility. Lizzy's temper was well documented. Imagine a scenario where Emma had been riding Lizzy for weeks or months regarding her associations. Lizzy snaps confessing to the murders or even threatening Emma. "Lizzy, all this has to stop, these horrible immoral people!" "Enough Emma! Don't push me too far! Remember Papa and Abby!" A scenario such as that relayed to a priest would definitely have him responding with "You must leave that house immediately." Which is just what happened. I don't believe a house full of "immoral" people or even a revelation of a lesbian affair would cause Emma to abandon a sister she'd considered her ward and child all those years. Chilling thought, no?
I wasn't intmating she as a lesbian, just that that was a theory for the total split in their relationship. My point was that there must have been some major revelation or circumstance to cause Emma to sever ties so completely. I was speculating that that something might have been Emma discovering Lizzys guilt though irrefutable evidence or confession.
I agree Lizzie was guilty. That said, to what degree if any, were others involved? Emma? The atmosphere in the home was oppressive to say the least. Any excuse to get away for awhile would be welcome and by all accounts she was a "God fearing" woman who would never have gone if she suspected anything was afoot. Bridget? Absolutely no motive. If she'd known anything she would have jumped at the chance to be as far away as possible ( the store sale), from the house that morning. John Morse? Now his behavior is suspect to me. Did he commit the murders? I don't see how short of a broad conspiracy but did he know that something was go down that morning? Given his odd behavior upon his return and his encyclopedic memory of his movements that morning lead me to believe he did. How would he benefit from the deaths? What were the "business matters" he was there to discuss? Did he owe Andrew money? If that was the case no money needed to change hands post murders for him to benefit. I don't see anybody else being involved. How Lizzy did it without leaving incriminating evidence. I don't know but I'm 90 percent sure she did.
John Morse had 0 motive, no history of violence, and died a financially comfortable man. Remembering a badge number doesn’t really constitute a memory. He had nothing to do with it
i still think lizzie was being treated with morphine before she killed her her father and stepmother it can change your whole perspective just look at her eyes
John Uncle Lizzie and Emma all three were involved in it but the fact that he memorized all that stuff if he didn't do it or knew about it why did he need an alibi Emma captor mouth quiet because she was involved at Emma and the uncle plant that are loaded the bullets Lizzie Steph Lizzie would have opened her mouth all three of them would have swung from The gallows 16:1717:10
What you’ve claimed here has no evidence, goes against the known facts and timeline. It’s groundless speculations that must be dismissed. It’s worthy only of this response.
Thank you for the great content! This is a fascinating topic so I hope you will continue the conversation. One huge mystery is the small time window in which Mr. Borden was killed. There was not enough time for Lizzie to kill her father without some help.
Thank you very much. See my first video. All available evidence from that day and its timeline show that she almost definitely did it alone, and I showed how it was very possible.
There is no one else could have committed this crime but Lizzy. She was the only one in the house. Bridget was outside. She would have seen an intruder.
why WHY did you just * flash * the pictures.. !? l had to keep stopping to look at them.. leave them up long enough to take in.. theyre small to begin with.. like to see them without pausing the vid.. js.
@@bigprettyman3795 lol stopp.. btw surprised by the name.. l was married to a BPM myself for just over 2O years.. he was soo Handsome.. just Magnificent.. (and l told him that every. day.) he passed recently.. but #whataman.
Hope not about the alleged animal murders, shoplifting if true is one thing, can be forgiven for stealing though not murdering animals. Maybe only wanted to kill stepmother not really her father, perhaps she found it to be a necessary evil ? Wanting to murder stepmother can be likely, her Father was an unexpected bonus? Thinking she killed her stepmother, thought 🤔 hmmm,deserve an extra treat& do away with the 'ol skin flint miser Father, too? 😮😢😅😂! Lol.Maybe 😮😢😅😂.
I disagree; I find a thief far worse than a meat-eating farmer or hunter.l. I worked in a slaughter house and have ‘ murdered’ animals by the multiple thousands, didn’t make me murder people. Also, people commonly raised, slaughtered and ate pigeons back then. They were considered a delicacy. Lizzie wasn’t a shoplifter, that’s a myth . Andrew wasn’t a miser nor skinflint. That’s a myth. See my other videos
@@bigprettyman3795 Yeah well you know what? Hmmm,the J.T.R. murders in 1888 weren't really ever solved either & then this happens ? Seems suspect to me, maybe same killer/s involved? Maybe someone like Eugene Victor Toombs, 🤔 hmmm? Think that,s the name haven't watched those X-FILES episodes in a long while. Someone like that maybe or maybe it,s not even human/oid at all , perhaps a shapeless entity that feeds on terror, fear emotion that assumes a human/oid shape to KILL!! REDJACK, REDJACK REDJACK !!! No worries, just having fun. Lol 😂.
The Jack the Ripper murders were 4 years apart, in different countries and have completely different methods, weapons and motives. They have no relation whatsoever. The rest is not worthy of commentary.
BPM you can never have too many videos about Lizzie Borden! It's just all too interesting!
lol. Thank you. I agree. I’m thinking of doing an experiment with a coat and hacking a fake blood-filled head with quick clean up to see how long it takes. If so I’ll definitely upload that video.
@@bigprettyman3795 you should! I will definitely watch if you do.
@@bigprettyman3795
ewww.. lol
ok yah l would watch that too..
mainly for the results..
l said that on another thread.. that she covered herself with her fathers coat.. maybe a scarf for her hair..? easy clean up since they had a cistern..
A thought just occurred to me about how the COMPLETE absence of blood on Lizzie after the murders happened may actually speak to her guilt instead of her innocence. If you read the Q&As of the Inquest Lizzie claims after she found her father she did not know if he was dead or not. (Yet she immediately ran to the bottom of the stairs and yelled up at Bridgett (Maggie) that someone had come in and killed him. She did not start screaming at her father desperately wanting a response from him. No effort for or hope of his survival is made or even claimed to have been made.) I think most innocent people if they walked in and to their utter surprise saw a loved one beaten and/or stabbed to a bloody mess would rush to their aid and thereby get blood on them and because they are truly innocent would not be concerned about blood getting on them and making them look guilty because their primary concern is helping their injured loved one. However, a guilty murderer would go to the lengths of making sure they are completely blood free as Lizzie was (minus the small speck on her undergarment).
I mentioned this in one of my videos. She didn’t panic or run as she would have no idea if the killer wasn’t still in the house. She saw her father just 15 mins before alive and well and now his head is chopped in and blood running. Yet she announced her presence and calls for the maid! It’s as though she knew she was in no danger. Also, as Dr Bowen pointed out, she DID change clothes not long after police arrived, and nobody was going to strip check a Victorian lady.
@@bigprettyman3795 yeah, that’s one question I’ve often had that why Lizzie stayed in the house after finding her father slaughtered in the sitting room. Who would stay calmly inside a house coming upon a situation like that? Anybody but her would be in fear for their life! She knew she was not in danger staying inside.
What exactly makes you think that Mr Borden was Lizzie's "loved one"?
Thank you.
Very good points! I've always wondered how Lizzie could stay in that town with everyone ostracizing her. Now I think it's because she wanted to live on that hill so badly with the prestige and all! Naming her place Maplecroft says it all. Moving to another town where no one knows her wouldn't have fulfilled her dream of prestige in that town where she was known and felt belittled in the past knowing she was living below her means.
lizzie sister was gone
@@louisdifranco9633Emma didnt leave their new mansion, Maplecroft , until 7 yeats later. Altho' 5 years after the murders, she confided to a church minister that Lizzie's scandalous parties with actress Nance O'Neil were a bone of contention between the sisters. Actresses were regarded as almost on a par with sexworkers back then. Genteel ladies did NOT socialise with actresses.😂
The only person that didn't have an alibi but Lizzy. She had to have done it. I like your wool coat theory. I agree.
This is such a fascinating case.
It's no surprise that a movement would use a killer as a so called victim, they're doing it today.
Loved all your videos on Lizzie Borden. I've always thought she did it. I like how you systematically accounted for everything using logical thought and fact. And am now going to have to try to find the court transcripts to read.
there's @ lot of vi@ble inform@tion th@t w@s thrown out. first, during the interrog@tion, they s@y, lizzie contr@dicted herself fifty times. but it w@s thrown out bec@use she didn't h@ve her l@wyer with her. @lso, the b@rn loft @libi, w@s thrown out. i don't know why though.
Google has the whole transcripts.
Thank you. You put this in a very interesting, thought-provocing way
Great video series. Love to read or watch anything about the Borden murders. I've even been on a tour of the house in Fall River Mass. Oddly one of the best documentaries on Lizzie and The Borden's out there was made in 1994, from a series called "Country Lawyer".
Love that documentary. Watched it live and recorded it on my VCR ( that dates it!). Has some inaccuracies in it, but still one of the best!
I’ve really enjoyed these Lizzie Borden videos! You could make 10 more and I’d still watch them! 😉
Excellent ! I do think if Emma was tired of the publicity and Lizzies party lifestyle she still would have kept in touch as opposed to not even speaking for 30 years
We’ll never know. People have varying relationships of intensity and sensibilities. Whereas leaving wouldn’t cause a permanent rift between me and my siblings, considering how close they had been all their lives Emma’s decision to move away could have brought on a parting argument that ended their relationship. Could be Lizzie saw it as an abandonment and rejection of her closest confidant in life. Odd, but families have parted over less. Also, once again we must apply Victorian standards and sensibility. Could be Lizzie’s ‘party lifestyle’ with what was seen as low-lived was such a shame Emma felt obligated to condemn her. However, I see no proof of a lesbian relation causing. It could have, is a possibility of course, but no evidence. This just extreme speculation. In the end, only the sisters know, and they been dead nearly a century.
As a (former) licensed private investigator, having seen the Elizabeth Montgomery movie, I lean towards the theory that Lizzie did it in the nude. If she had put a coat over her clothing, what happened to the coat. You'd think it would have been covered in blood! Additionally, if it was an intruder, why wasn't anything stolen. Very good video. Thank you.
Impossible to have done this in the nude. She wouldn’t have time to strip, kill him, wash and redress in that 19th century dress. In less then 15 mins? No. The coat stuffed under his head was saturated in blood. Don’t know what they did with it.
Look at the crime scene photo of Andrew Borden - the coat is under the pillow under his head.
Just seeing this definitely covered all the points satisfactorily, awesome job:)
Love your Lizzie Borden videos. Very thorough.
Well done! Greetings from Illinois! Next, Leopold & Loeb! I think you would do it justice!
Thank you. I've immensely enjoyed your very informative presentation about this case. I appreciate that you go over the time period and it's mores and sensibilities. It is vital that all who study this or any other historical case to understand how people thought in certain eras. We cannot apply 21st century attitudes to late 19th-early 20th century attitudes. I'd like for you to go over other past cases, especially from the more recent past. The OJ Simpson, Casey Anthony, West Memphis Three, etc.. come to mind. Oh, and the 1993 and 2005 Michael Jackson cases too. I think we'd all appreciate your insights!
Thank you for the compliment. It’s a similar case and has been noted several times. I was alive during those eras. Not nearly the difference as between Victorian and the 21st century. However, it is interesting and I’ll give it some serious thought.
See my last video on the subject. Think you’ll approve.
@@bigprettyman3795I've watched all your Lizzie Borden videos and some of them I've listened to twice! I really appreciate the scholarly approach to this case as well as your speculations based on the evidence. I hope you do other cases in the future. I've started to listen to your Jack the Ripper video too. One thing I wish the Victorians had was modern forensics! But alas, they did the best with what they had, I suppose.
There's something else I wonder about. Lizzie took out the ironing board in front of the maid to iron handkerchiefs but said to police she was waiting for irons to heat on the stove. Next to Abby is a handkerchief on the floor. Abby won't be holding one to make a bed. Lizzie might distract Abby with a question about a handkerchief.
Now THAT is interesting! See what fresh eyes can see? I’m going look into this. Think you may have noticed something important! Bravo!
@@bigprettyman3795 something else makes me wonder. Lizzie can't risk a confrontation and have a struggle for the weapon. It has to be a surprise. Handkerchiefs are in a laundry basket. Put the weapon in the basket, cover it with the handkerchiefs, bring it upstairs and ask a stupid question, and Abby turns her back to finish her work, quickly put the basket down, pull out the weapon, handkerchief comes out with it, it's over.
That sounds plausible.
Great video!
Hey Big Pretty. Love your channel and I'm fascinated by this case. You make a pretty solid case with great observations. One thing i would love to hear about is the other axe killings that happened in the same town around the same time that were never mentioned. Additionally, an alleged 'side door'. You stayed in the home, did you see a side door? Also, do you really think she had the physical strength to bash them in the way she did? Id love to hear more about these and also how could she clean herself up twice without noticing. Oh yes and lastly, was there a son???
Can't wait to watch more videos ❤
A child with an hatchet or iron could have based their heads in. That’s what a hatchet is made for. I cut wood with one at five, so a 32 year old stout woman wouldn’t have an issue.I saw no side door except the one by the kitchen. I’ve explained how she did the clean ups in my videos. She had an hour after her mother. Her father was likely the coat and a headscarf easily tossed in the stove.
And I’ve found no evidence of Andrew Borden having a son.
@@bigprettyman3795 hey, I'm new to your channel so I didn't see all the videos yet. I came across another video speaking about a son, so I thought I would ask. Must've been cool to stay in the house, was it creepy?
Cheers
@@bigprettyman3795 Did the side door by the kitchen lead to the barn?
I think Bridget laid down cause she wasn’t feeling good. But perhaps she often did lie down at that time. Highly unlikely being 26 years old tho? But I think Lizzie encouraged her to lie down. After she tried to get her to leave the house to shop at the fabric dress store that was having a sale. Bridget didn’t go cause she wasn’t well
See my all my videos, Hon. I answered a lot of this, but yes we are of the same mind.
@@bigprettyman3795 I’m catching up.. at the time, I’d have no idea you’d be doing multiple reviews
You know, the more I learn about the known Borden family dynamics the worse Emma looks. Whether she played any role in the murders or not, her hatred of the step mother was certainly instilled in Lizzy from an early age. She also would have known how unstable and impressionable her little sister was. This alone leaves me to assign some blame to her. Remember, Manson didn't kill. His impressionable followers did.
And you base this on what documentation? Where is a doctors report Lizzie was unstable and impressionable. Where is a letter or interview showing Emma had such hatred of Abby? In fact it’s contrary to known sources. Interviews with people who knew them said Lizzie was stubborn, socially conscious and strong willed, not impressionable. Emma was demure, introverted and quiet. Where’s the evidence beyond tv movies and bad documentaries to support any of this? Thus I must dismiss this as wild speculation, hearsay, and fiction,
When Lizzie went to Europe with her rich relatives her father began to look very undesirable.She wanted that house on the hill really bad. This is about greed and materialism.Doing it the way she did she had time to clean up .Also she could pace it to where it was one at a time.She was very cunning. She got by with it.
He paid for the trip, and she was well taken care of with a high standard of living. She likely did it out of fear of her father dying and her step-mother controlling the purse strings. It put her in an untenable and desperate position.
@@bigprettyman3795 come on man look at the house she bought . She was the upper class now. That's materialism and it's alive still today.
The molestation crap makes me so beyond mad. I’ve seen people using Lizzie giving her father a ring when she graduated highschool which he wore literally to his death as proof he saw her as like a wife or the door between her and Andrews room having a dresser by the door was to stop him getting in. And like people seem to forget Andrew is a victim here. This man was brutalized in his own home potentially by a daughter he loved and doted on. He never received justice and what do people do? Twist the narrative so he’s at fault for his own death in the most vile way. RIP Andrew and Abby Borden I ain’t buying any of this sorta crap
I completely agree.
1 thing bout the maid she disappeared after lizzie was acquitted and when she was found again she had all this wealth and land and lived in another state this info came from the borden house when u visit
FALSE. Bridgette had no wealth, moved to Butte, Montana and worked as a maid for a judge. She married a man also named Sullivan, and lived out her life quietly in Montana. At the time of her death she had the modest savings of working woman. This is another of these baseless rumors that is defeated by facts, records and bank accounts. If the Lizzie House is giving that false info then that employee should be reprimanded and/or terminated. Always Recheck and question your sources.
BigPrettyMan, I believe that there was a pay off for Bridgett , I think she like Emma knew after the fact ,Bridgett at the trial didn't hurt Lizzie , but she didn't go out of her way to help her either ,Lizzie and Emma didnt want her returning to Fall River and talking .
Possible, but contrary to the evidence. We know she did not witness Abby’s murder, and if she was witness to Andrews murder she did a hell of an acting job and upheld her lie through several rounds of intense questioning by Knowlton without cracking. I find both hard to accept and highly unlikely. Also, we don’t have proof that the Borden’s paid for her trip home. That’s just speculation and rumor, and some even claim she never went to Ireland. We have no idea the amount of money she had saved. She could very well traveled on her own expenses. Though I believe it likely the Borden’s financed the trip if it indeed happened, we’ll never know for sure who paid for it or their motivations.
I wrote what follows before finishing your video, and now see you addressed many of the things I've said. We've come to the same conclusions, although all we have is speculation and common sense to guide us.
Abby was the only one who took care of the guest bedroom, not Bridget, so she was safe there. Bridget had no reason to come up the front stairs because she also didn't take care of either Emma or Lizzie's rooms. Emma was out of town and out of the way, so that helped. She also had to somehow get first Abby and then Andrew alone to kill them, and that opportunity presented itself that morning, helped by Abby asking Bridget to wash the windows so she too would be conveniently out of the way.
I think Uncle John, Bridget, and Emma all knew more than they admitted to. Not that they were in on it, just that they knew something was building to a head between Lizzie and the senior Bordens, so it wasn't that much of a surprise when this happened, and/or easily figured out she'd done is very soon afterwards. Bridget knew how tense things were, and could have testified to it, but didn't. That's what I think she meant when she told her friend she'd helped Lizzie out, if that really did happen. I think it's also why, or partly why, Lizzie protected her.
I agree something happened that set her in motion. For certain she had this plan when she went the night before to set the stage and told her friend Alice Russell all that wild nonsense about fearing something bad was going to happen. IMO it had something to do with Andrew's will or estate. Something she found out, either overheard or some way, that he was planning to not leave the sisters enough, or, leaving Abby what she considered to be too much.
I agree. Though as you said, we’ll never know what set her off, nor how much the people in that house knew or suspected. I think you are correct in they may have seen this coming, or at least weren’t as shocked at the occurrence, but I think we are looking more at possible collusion after the fact than conspiracy
@@bigprettyman3795 Yes, I agree. For me it's probable collusion after the fact, but not conspiracy. Because Uncle John behaved so strangely, noting too many unusually specific details on his ride back to the Bordens, and claiming to not notice a number of people in front of the house, I think he knew more than anyone else and provided himself with an alibi - just in case he needed it.
@@bigprettyman3795 This may not be of any great consequence but I just realised Lizzie had to have used one or more mirrors to check her appearance after killing Abby, and again after killing Andrew. She'd have to make sure there were no visible blood spots on her and that she appeared as she usually did.
There was a mirror in the guest room in the vanity on the north wall. Most likely another in her bedroom, and perhaps one in Emma's room.
But what about downstairs? She'd have to check herself in one after killing Andrew, too, before calling Bridget. It'd be interesting to know which, if any, downstairs rooms had mirrors and if there was one in the cellar (doubtful, doesn't seem to be any reason for one down there). There could have been one in the sitting room, and possibly the dining room.
Any thoughts on this?
I read an article once that claimed Andrew's illegitimate son was the killer.
I agree with you regarding Abby trusting the person who entered the room where she was killed.
Your idea of the heavy coat being used as a blood shield for Lizze makes sense.
As far as food poisoning ... August, no sanitary plumbing, well-water ... Deaths from Dysentary
and Typhoid fever climbed during the warm months during that era.
Andrew didn’t have a son. It’s unsupported crap.
@@bigprettyman3795
you sure abt that..
what abt the (bio mothers-side) "uncle"..
He did not have an illagentment son. Urban myth.
@@BEAUTYnIQhow would that be Andrews son???
In the 1975 movie, they ate bad mutton broth that was out in the heat for several days. Eech.
Just a note on food safety. It is very possible for food to go off from one day to the next, even less, if the temperature is not cool enough, or hot enough to keep bacteria from growing. My grandmother showed me how it was done in the old days, with stew or broth in particular. You had to hard boil the food for a few minutes, then leave it covered where it could cool down promptly, and you must not open the lid or stir the food, take any portion out, until it would be served again (let's say from dinner til next day breakfast or lunch), properly heated again.
They had an icebox. Also,they didn’t have the broth for breakfast. They had oatmeal, eggs, sausage, johnnycakes and pears. So the food poising from the lamb broth is a misinformed myth.
I think anything was the culprit it was the eggs or sausage gone bad before even cooked.
@@bigprettyman3795 Oh, I fully agree that it could have been something else entirely., as I am open to other possible scenarios in this case. Especially coming from you, that have annalised this case so meticulously and objectively.
I left the comment because I have observed a rise in the interest in true crime by the younger generation, who consume the modern foods full of preservatives, albeit not by choice, as everything has them, nowadays. They are also less involved in the food preparation, compared to then. The intention was to remind people out there that food back then was much more vulnerable to decay and bacterial contamination, and had to be handled in a different and more complicated manner to avoid illness and waste.
@@bigprettyman3795the testimony I read from Brigid Sullivan.
"For breakfast there was some mutton, some broth and johny cakes, coffee and cookies. The broth was mutton broth "
Sure enjoyed your videos, and all the comments.
Always wondered if Lizzie replayed the murders in her mind. Every day she had to think of what she had done. Some people tune it out ?
Omg… Love this video!! Glad you’re revisiting this AGAIN. I have some theories and reasons here based on all three of your videos on your theory/theories of Lizzie Borden
1. Some people think that Lizzie burned that dress because of the blood. Perhaps she wore that coat to cover up some of the blood and there was too much to the point she had to wipe some of the blood off with her dress and she either blamed it on paint or her period blood.
2. Most people thought that the murder weapon at first was a meat cleaver, and John Morse was a butcher, and I think there was a period of where there was 90 minutes where we don’t know what he was doing or where he was. Plus, he looks very suspicious so😱😱 He also supposedly remembered SIX men on the trolley(if that’s how you spell it) and their names, the numbers on their sashes, and on their hats I believe.
3. There’s a theory about the “wild-eyed man” aka most likely William Borden, who was Andrew’s bastard son and was trying to get a part in/of his will, and was angry at Abby for taking his mother’s place. He came in and killed them and suddenly “ran off” or something (I’m going by my memory rn), but nobody saw him leave or run off? That’s weird.
4. Bridget disappeared right after the murders and by the time of her death, she owned a farm and some other stuff, and was a pretty wealthy woman. Perhaps she was paid to leave or had a boost in money given to her.
Amazing video though!! It had a lot of information.
Also, Bridget wasn’t allowed to go on the second floor and first floor(I believe) because they didn’t trust her enough, that’s why she was in the attic. The Borden women were the ones to clean the second and first floors; that’s why Abby was in the guest room making the bed and fixing the pillows.
I'm so happy you enjoyed the video and I hope you watch the prior two videos I made on Lizzie Borden. I agree with many things you've said and they have been in my two prior videos on this subject. However, there are a few issues here I can address. The weapon was most likely a hatchet, and I doubt a meat cleaver due to the width of the wounds. However an interesting theory holds it may have been one of those old-fashioned stove-heated irons. That may fit as the blows are more bludgeoning than cutting. An old fashioned iron would do that, whereas even a partially dull hatchet with its wedge blade should go right through the heads instead of just the shallow but crushing wounds on one side of the head. Definitely a strong possibility I feel. John Vinnicum Morse was a farmer and horse trader. He moved to Iowa and did well in life, leaving a nice sum of money in his WIll. Ive read nor heard nothing of him ever being a butcher, but I will check into that. As I explained in the video, Morse' memory of that day was proven true, showing her was there. As i said, less distractions back then, and he may well be the type that has that kind of memory. His niece confirmed he was visiting with her around 11am, making it impossible he killed Andrew, and obviously these crimes were done by the same hand.There is no proof for a bastard son named William Borden,. The only William Borden that can be found was of no direct relation. If you check the directory of Fall River for 1892 you'll find a ton of Borden's. They were an old prominent family in that town with many, many branches.This ridiculous story of a bastard son that liked hacking horses with his axe, walked around covered in horse-blood, and talked to his axe like a person comes from a Lizzie Borden book from the 90's that is complete bullsh*t. Bridgett actually began working for another family in a nearby town after the murders. Many say she went back to Ireland for awhile, though no travel logs prove this. By 1897 she was living in Anaconda, Montana, where she married a man named John Sullivan and worked as a domestic servant for a Judge in that town. She died far from wealthy. She moved in with her niece towards the end of her life. Her niece said she left about $3000 in life savings ( equivalent to about $36,800 in today's money). Not a bad sum for 1948, and one that would be expected from a working servant, but far from mansions and riches.
@@anna4040 Very correct. Thus Lizzie would have known that Bridgett would never find the body in the guest bedroom. Bridgett used the servant stairs off the kitchen in the back.
Speaking of murderous women, Patricia Krenwinkle, who killed one of the Tate-Sebring murders, and Leslie Van Houghton (just released from prison) who stabbed to death Leo Lobianco (spg).
On another site, I heard that Bridget got some $$$ afterwards to go back to Ireland. Ahemmm......
It's my understanding as well that Lizzie at one point was encouraging Bridget to go out for a dress goods sale. I believe it was earlier in the morning, before the murders.
According to Bridgett’s testimony, she said she and Lizzie discussed in typical morning small talk about a sale in some fabric at a local store, and Bridgett said she responded by saying she planned to purchase a few yards.
@@bigprettyman3795 Just seems to me one more attempt to get Bridget away, if possible. Could even underline premeditation. Excellent breakdown of this case!
She did. It was between the murders time frame. She wanted Bridget gone so she could be alone with her father
Blood ? Now the household did not have modern plumping a kitchen hand pump. And wash basins special after killing the father. No blood trail. Splatter trail ? Now if she was guilty. The maid had to see a lot. Was there valuables on the victims special the father experiment. Try washing blood just on hands. Face sleeves hair. With the instruments to clean up in the house. It would be very very hard
Need not be much of a blood trail. They did have running water in the basement, and I worked as a nurse for years. Blood, if not dry, washed off skin quite easily. Never had an issue.
Also, re-watch the whole of my videos. The police did not examine her. Such things were not done to a Victorian lady of 1892. So blood could easily not be seen.
This was an unusual day because the doors were normally unlocked Birget had to unlock the door for Andrew but I believe there was at least a cover up.
No evidence nor indication of a cover up whatsoever.
@@bigprettyman3795 Someone had to have a clue about this in the house. You don't get two murders in a small house at least an hour apart and not know anything about this. It's so odd. That's why this story is so interesting.
As I talked about in this video, Only Lizzie and Bridgett were around, and Bridgett was outside for Abby’s Murder, and wasn’t allowed in the upstairs bedrooms, said that in her testimony. And of course, Lizzie knew that. With Andrew, she knew his routine of taking a nap before dinner. Now if Bridgett took the same siesta before lunch as part of her regular routine then that answers it all. If I could ask Bridgett any question, it would be that; 'Did you take a short nap like you did that day on a regular and routine basis?" It would answer most of my questions on Lizzie MO on this murder.
Keep history crimes going on. It is so interesting. I study this too.
I have heard that the maid did not clean the front upstairs part of the house where Lizzie’s room, , Emma’s room & the spare room were located. She was not allowed up there. This would explain why Abby was the one to go up and change the pillow cases in the spare room. Lizzie would not have been worried that the maid would go up there.
Nevermind, I just got to the part where you said that lol!
Lol. Smh
I think the slaughtering of Lizzies pigions had alot to do with it. Andrew chopped the heads off, and Abbey told Brigette to cook yhe, and Brigette refused. I think Lizzie tried to cut their heads off. Imo
Fake story. Lizzie didn’t have pigeons. Truth is they got in his barn and was shitting on his hay. So he killed him. The rest of that story is urban legend gossip that’s pure fiction.
Why he needed hay I still don’t know. Lol
@@bigprettyman3795 wasnt the hay for the horse he used to have to pull the carriged that was abandoned in the lower part of the barn?
That’s probably why. Makes sense.
If she just wanted the money she could have poisoned them-one way or another- The rage that she showed on these attacks make me feel like there was some kind of sexual abuse--especially in those times- maybe some kind of indiscretions or liverties he would have with her- and complicity from her step mother-
No evidence of such abuse, and this speculation wasn’t proposed until the late 70’s and 80’s, when the church molestation charges and missing children became hot topics. Throughout the last 130 years Lizzie Borden has become a blank slate for every social and feminist issue. None reflect the real Lizzie Borden or her motives.
the m@nner of the murders, it's person@l. it's very person@l. nothing w@s stolen. reg@rding sexu@l @buse, & murders, the mother @lw@ys gets it worse. well, this mom got more w@cks. she @lso got it first. like, she's the m@in one lizzie w@nted to get @t. & d@d got it b/c he w@s the @buser. mom didn't protect them. the sisters m@y h@ve considered themselves...d@m@ged goods, which could be why they wouldn't m@rry. then it would be exposed. i'm t@king this info. from other c@ses i've looked @t.
I think she (Lizzie) overheard a conversation between Uncle John and Andrew and Abby, about their Mother's property I think was in Swansea , and Andrew was going to sell the give the property to Abby'in his will , now that would , seems to me, be the thing that would have set Lizzie off ,she took advantage of Bridget being outside, and Uncle John and Emma was gone , opportunity and motive, if the deaths had been reversed , Andrew killed first , Abby would have inherited the property and everything else , so Abby HAD ddto be killed first from a legal standpoint .
Interesting theory and possible, but no evidence. I can see that collusion with Emma , but I honestly don’t think from her testimony and actions that Bridgett had a thing to do with it. Lizzie seems to have made sure Bridgett wouldn’t find the body. In fact from the transcripts and statements from her later Montana family it seems that Bridgett was severely traumatized by seeing and finding the body that affected her the rest of her life. I think the sending her to Ireland was more compassionate than cover up. With Lizzie found innocent I think they feared that being Irish they may try to accuse her as a scapegoat and condolence prize.as by Bridgett’s own statement the 3 women liked each other, and I think they paid for her to go home to protect her. Think that makes more sense.
enjoy all your videos
I believe that Bridget would have been unlikely to have gone up the front stairs to the front bedrooms as she was not responsible for those rooms. Lizzie and Emma took care of their own rooms and dress closets themselves and Abby may have saw fit to tend to the guest room herself. The parents and Bridget’s rooms were off of the back stairs, with Bridget being up and n the third floor.
That’s not belief that’s actually stated in her testimony and in the transcripts. She didn’t attend the upstairs rooms. That limit was common for servants of the time.
John Morse visit was planned , had a letter from Andrew asking him to come for a vist to discuss business of buying cattle. John had money of his own he owned land and cattle.
The iron makes much more sense. Especially with Abby. She set Lizzie off and turned and resumed cleaning and then boom. Makes total sense man. and then thinking:"oh shit no, this wasnt supposed to happen like this."
The fact that she stayed in falls river is proof of guilt. Wouldn't she had been afraid.
It is interesting she stayed. I think it was flat stubbornness. She just refused to leave the town and culture in which she had grown up.
what's really sad, is that in the many comments I've read on various videos re this case, is that most still don't want to blame Lizzy simply because she was a woman. Why does the uncle keep getting thrown in there? He wasn't there when it happened, his alibi was rock solid! But because he was a man, and stayed there, then of course it must have been him?! Ffs! The people going down that route, would make lousy and lazy detectives. Women can be extremely violent. There were women even long before the Victorian era who committed horrific acts of violence, yet still people can't seem to grasp it. They just don't want her to be guilty, but she was. She was the only one there, she was a greedy money hungry selfish woman, and she got everything she ever dreamed of after Abby and Andrew were dead. She got off because they were severely lacking in forensics and fear of searching her or her room lol she easily could have axed her father, got rid of the weapon and composed herself in time to call Brigitte. It wouldn't have taken her long to hack into him, and if she used the coat, fold that, then go check to see if blood had got on her anywhere then quickly cleaned up. Someone needs to re enact the crime. Of all the videos I've seen, not one person has attempted to re create this, to see how much time was needed and how she avoided getting blood on her. She wasn't exactly petite either
Interesting you said that, as I’m planning to do just such an experiment. I’ll post it when I’m done.
@@bigprettyman3795 cool
It's not just about gender, socioeconomic status was part of the mix. The Bordens were not only respected members of the middle (upper-middle?) class. Lizzie's family was part of a larger well-
off, well-known clan in Fall River.
It's documented Lizzie was a shoplifter. I have also studied this case for over 20 yrs. What about William Borden. No one talks about him
What’s your documentation? An arrest? A complaint? No. Nothing documented except the painting incident after the murders, and even that’s ambiguous.because William was not his son. Plenty of research has shown that. Even if he were, the scenario of him coming to the house at 9am on a busy sunny Thursday with 3 people home, killing Abby, waiting in the house and the killing Andrew and doing this and escaping escaping unseen by Bridget, Lizzie and the neighbors is a ridiculous theory. That’s why I don’t speak of him. He’s of zero consequence.
I read in a book that a combination of Lizzie having her period, epilepsy and extreme heat-maybe she was in a fugue state when the murders happened. I didn't believe it-because she didn't get caught.
Unsupportable diagnosis with zero evidence. Pure unsupported speculation. You are correct in dismissing it,
How could they conspire if they didn’t know uncle was coming because he just pops up
Also I’m not convinced she was guilty partly because if her father was found just about right after he was killed she would have been out of breath, out of sorts from all the axe 🪓 swinging, I’ve never heard that she was breathing heavy or anything when she called for Bridget , to me she just wouldn’t have had time to “ cool down” after the killing
True on Uncle John as far as we know. Though little proof they did or didn’t know of his visit, and the conspiracy could just be Emma leaving town to be out of the slaughter. Or Emma knew nothing and Lizzie used it as her que to act. Either is possible. In truth we have reports that she was somewhat agitated when Bridget came down. She sent her immediately across the street. Remember it took her less than a minute to hack him to death. She wasn’t cutting up a tree for winter firewood. Thus she had another 10-15 mins to place the coat, wash her hands and face then call to Bridgett. No reason she would be out of breath. I have little to no doubt she did it. In truth, according to the timeline and the fact she STAYED IN THE HOUSE ALONE not knowing if the killer was still there and acting as though she knew was in no danger all point to only one logical conclusion: Lizzie Borden killed her parents, and under these circumstances, is the only one who could have done so.
well she was obviously in need of a drug to settle her down
@@Billygoatsgrruff a common practice at the time. They believed women had sensitive nerves and prescribed morphine, cocaine and laudanum( opium extracts in alcohol) for everything from headaches to ‘hysterics’. You could buy it like Tylenol in the drug stores.
@@bigprettyman3795
.
uou forgot heroin..
.
also drank alcohol a lot !
it kept water safer ..
bacteria/virus/parasite free
hah.
I never heard it was red paint
..was the house paint red in some places
Would Lizzie not have had a wrapper dress to put over and protect her day dress if she was expecting to do light housework.
If she did, where was this blood-covered day dress? Police didn’t find it. And she she had only minutes to Chuck it out.
Wasn't Lizzie arrested in Providence, RI for shoplifting?
No. She was accused of stealing two small paintings after she had gifted them to a friend and the receiver took one back to the shop for repairs. The store said they hadn’t been purchased, but Lizzie claimed she had paid for them. The charges were dropped. Whether it was shoplifting or the stores clerical error is unknown. This is the source of the rumor she was a shoplifter. There is no other evidence she was a shoplifter.
Love your coat theory! You mentioned that the outside door was the only way in to the cellar. This is not correct as Bridget says in her court testimony that she locked the cellar door from the inside and used the inside access to collect wood, do the wash and use the privy.
I never said a word about a cellar.
Your video was great to watch and in my opinion she did it or she was definitely involved. I believe this case was botched from the start and there was no type of DNA and forensics at the time. 1892 or 2022 she still would have been acquitted or hung jury but not found guilty because of the evidence provided.
Completely agree. They tried her based on the burnt dress and the defense kicked that out thoroughly. With her inquest transcript ruled inadmissible and no forensic evidence she had to be found not guilty.
Could LB have been guilty today because of being criminally insane?
Who the heck was she going fishing with? Where were they?
A very good question. I’ve heard such a fishing trip was happening with either the church or one of the institutions Lizzie participated, but forget the details.
What uf she paid someone to do it? Witnesses saw a suspicious man walking around the house that morning. I think Bridgette knew about it too i think Abby was already dead when she went out to wash windows..so people would see her outside.
No economic forensics evidence of a paid hitman. A paid hitman would use a gun not an axe or iron, no evidence of Bridgette’s involvement or a possible motive, According to blood evidence Abby was alive when Bridgette went out, and the so-called man lurking outside was a rumor from decades later. This is all blind speculation without a leg to stand on. Try again and base it on something within the evidence or it’s speculative fiction.
Something else that bothers me is...why do the murders at all? These were elderly people, especially in this period of time. Why not just let them live out their last few years? Unless the worry was that the father would die first? Still, what was the rush? Did anybody ever find out if AJ Borden had a will at all? It would seem like he did have a will with his age and wealth...
No will. Why do it? Because her father was elderly and no will. He was about to turn 70 and at that time most men died in their 60’s. She knew he was on borrowed time and by law his money would be controlled by her step-mother, for whom both didn’t get along. She’d be dependent on her, as a woman of her social rank wouldn’t work. And what could she do? Become seamstress or a maid to wealthy friends? The step-mother had to go, and it seems in her impulsive kill she knew her would know she did it, so rather than face him and be disowned and possibly gang, she killed him too.
How were babies delivered back then if a Dr couldn’t touch a lady ?
Interesting you ask that as I just read an article about it. At that time birthing was the domain of midwives. Mostly for that propriety issue, but it was in this late period that the professional male doctor began exerting more intimate control.
bridget knew lizzie did it and blackmailed her
You state that as a fact. No evidence whatsoever.
Could John have killed Abbey before leaving, and in cahoots with Lizzie (the will?), she killed her Dad?
No. The maid, Lizzie were home and Mr Borden and Uncle John left around the same time around 8am The blood evidence showed Mrs Borden died around 9-9:30am.
Critical thinking? Certainly intelligently, perceptive interesting. Thanks!
it may be possible lizzie wore 2 dresses after the deed was done she took the outside bloody dress and burned it
She did not have time for all that.
Maybe this European trip finally kicked this off.
See my first video on the subject. I speculated the same thing.
Is it true Bridget had been given a large amt of money when she moved away after the trial ?
No. That an urban myth. When she died she had the modest savings of a maid.
Just a thought: The most common theory as to why Emma severed all ties with Lizzy at Maplecroft a few years after the murders was her lifestyle and possible lesbian affair but consider another possibility. Lizzy's temper was well documented. Imagine a scenario where Emma had been riding Lizzy for weeks or months regarding her associations. Lizzy snaps confessing to the murders or even threatening Emma. "Lizzy, all this has to stop, these horrible immoral people!" "Enough Emma! Don't push me too far! Remember Papa and Abby!" A scenario such as that relayed to a priest would definitely have him responding with "You must leave that house immediately." Which is just what happened. I don't believe a house full of "immoral" people or even a revelation of a lesbian affair would cause Emma to abandon a sister she'd considered her ward and child all those years. Chilling thought, no?
No evidence she was lesbian, that’s modern speculation with no base of truth. See my 3rd video.
I wasn't intmating she as a lesbian, just that that was a theory for the total split in their relationship. My point was that there must have been some major revelation or circumstance to cause Emma to sever ties so completely. I was speculating that that something might have been Emma discovering Lizzys guilt though irrefutable evidence or confession.
in the movie their father was going to change his will
There was no Will and he never had a Will. That’s in the testimony of his accountant.
How long had Bridgett lived there?
According to her testimony, 2 years and 10 months
And no one would even look in her dresser drawers. Or their menstral rags.
Very true.
I agree Lizzie was guilty. That said, to what degree if any, were others involved? Emma? The atmosphere in the home was oppressive to say the least. Any excuse to get away for awhile would be welcome and by all accounts she was a "God fearing" woman who would never have gone if she suspected anything was afoot. Bridget? Absolutely no motive. If she'd known anything she would have jumped at the chance to be as far away as possible ( the store sale), from the house that morning. John Morse? Now his behavior is suspect to me. Did he commit the murders? I don't see how short of a broad conspiracy but did he know that something was go down that morning? Given his odd behavior upon his return and his encyclopedic memory of his movements that morning lead me to believe he did. How would he benefit from the deaths? What were the "business matters" he was there to discuss? Did he owe Andrew money? If that was the case no money needed to change hands post murders for him to benefit. I don't see anybody else being involved. How Lizzy did it without leaving incriminating evidence. I don't know but I'm 90 percent sure she did.
John Morse had 0 motive, no history of violence, and died a financially comfortable man. Remembering a badge number doesn’t really constitute a memory. He had nothing to do with it
i still think lizzie was being treated with morphine before she killed her her father and stepmother it can change your whole perspective just look at her eyes
No evidence. Her doctor never made any such statement in his testimony.
John Uncle Lizzie and Emma all three were involved in it but the fact that he memorized all that stuff if he didn't do it or knew about it why did he need an alibi Emma captor mouth quiet because she was involved at Emma and the uncle plant that are loaded the bullets Lizzie Steph Lizzie would have opened her mouth all three of them would have swung from The gallows 16:17 17:10
What you’ve claimed here has no evidence, goes against the known facts and timeline. It’s groundless speculations that must be dismissed. It’s worthy only of this response.
Thank you for the great content! This is a fascinating topic so I hope you will continue the conversation. One huge mystery is the small time window in which Mr. Borden was killed. There was not enough time for Lizzie to kill her father without some help.
Thank you very much. See my first video. All available evidence from that day and its timeline show that she almost definitely did it alone, and I showed how it was very possible.
There is no one else could have committed this crime but Lizzy. She was the only one in the house. Bridget was outside. She would have seen an intruder.
why WHY did you just
* flash * the pictures.. !?
l had to keep stopping to look at them.. leave them up long enough to take in..
theyre small to begin with.. like to see them without pausing the vid.. js.
You’ll live.
@@bigprettyman3795
lol stopp..
btw surprised by the name..
l was married to a BPM myself for just over 2O years..
he was soo Handsome..
just Magnificent..
(and l told him that every. day.)
he passed recently.. but #whataman.
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Hope not about the alleged animal murders, shoplifting if true is one thing, can be forgiven for stealing though not murdering animals. Maybe only wanted to kill stepmother not really her father, perhaps she found it to be a necessary evil ? Wanting to murder stepmother can be likely, her Father was an unexpected bonus? Thinking she killed her stepmother, thought 🤔 hmmm,deserve an extra treat& do away with the 'ol skin flint miser Father, too? 😮😢😅😂! Lol.Maybe 😮😢😅😂.
I disagree; I find a thief far worse than a meat-eating farmer or hunter.l. I worked in a slaughter house and have ‘ murdered’ animals by the multiple thousands, didn’t make me murder people. Also, people commonly raised, slaughtered and ate pigeons back then. They were considered a delicacy. Lizzie wasn’t a shoplifter, that’s a myth . Andrew wasn’t a miser nor skinflint. That’s a myth. See my other videos
@@bigprettyman3795 Yeah well you know what? Hmmm,the J.T.R. murders in 1888 weren't really ever solved either & then this happens ? Seems suspect to me, maybe same killer/s involved? Maybe someone like Eugene Victor Toombs, 🤔 hmmm? Think that,s the name haven't watched those X-FILES episodes in a long while. Someone like that maybe or maybe it,s not even human/oid at all , perhaps a shapeless entity that feeds on terror, fear emotion that assumes a human/oid shape to KILL!! REDJACK, REDJACK REDJACK !!! No worries, just having fun. Lol 😂.
The Jack the Ripper murders were 4 years apart, in different countries and have completely different methods, weapons and motives. They have no relation whatsoever. The rest is not worthy of commentary.
h@ve you ever visited the lizzie borden house? i looked it up. you were there.
Yes
did @ndrew borden h@ve @n illegitim@te son?
No