I am a store owner that does discounting, but I will note we are in very rural area. We do it as a) we are trying to get people to travel to visit us (have to make the gas spend worthwhile) and b) average wages in rural areas are usually much lower than in urban areas, so it has helped keep Warhammer attainable for the larger swath of people we have with lower incomes. I do not begrudge full MSRP stores in the least, urban rent is much higher than rural, and you have to keep the lights on. At the end of the day, there's lots of business cases for each model, and I'm glad both store types have room to exist.
I gladly pay MSRP at my local FLGS for the same reason I am happy to pay taxes that go toward my local parks, library and schools. Shit costs money and you gotta pay for these public services otherwise they go away.
6:20 This made me think of my parents back in the 90s - I was huge into video games, and they cultivated a relationship with a local independent video game store that basically only had EB as a direct competitor in my area. I think it was Super Mario RPG that was super hard to get, and I WANTED it. The owner of the store knew that they were loyal customers and held one aside for them no questions asked. They very likely paid a little bit of a markup, but that premium is so worth it to have that kind of relationship.
I am an infrequent customer at Lords of War but I can attest that their customer service is amongst the best - I have often come in for painting help and the time and care that they have given me always makes me feel very valued as a customer and a friend.
I was recruited by the local Warhammer store on 9th edition. I thought I was on a gradual path of build - paint - play as a casual player but then 10th and all the churn just felt like starting again. I have a pile of grey to paint so it’s hard to justify buying more models if I can’t play. I feel 40K doesn’t nurture a community in the long run.
As someone that prefers offers below MSRP I understand your point. I hit a point where I have more minis than I can paint in reasonable time... and new ones are released every month. I've abandoned monthly purchases within my hobby budget and instead buy when I really want to. I feel like great customer experience is valuable, but hard to quantify or put a price on. It great that it works for your store
So this video relates directly to the last one about supporting your local flgs.. I pay msrp there for GW because I'm supporting a small business that keeps the community going. He's got a discord now, and he asks the locals what they want every week, so he can plan his GW buys thoughtfully. I get my launch boxes and starter kits all through him, because it's more than just a sale. It's a local game center
I am really enjoying the videos. The openness about the challenges running a small business are appreciated. Too often people only look at what they spend on something without considering everything that goes into what it takes to get it in their hands. The LGS where I live discounts 5-7% online for most things. My local GW store is my main go to store due to location, assistance, knowing my name when I walk in etc. I am lucky to have a well run local GW. I know there is a discount that would get me to buy something elsewhere, but not sure what it is. I do know $5-20 is not it.
I don't give my local stores that charge MSRP grief, they're just trying to survithinone thing i have noticed, and this is probably just my area, is that the local stores that give a 15% discount all have better tables and more space to play. I think they just get more business
Does the lgs make it easy for me to buy from them. IE are they open late so a person working a normal job can visit? Or are they expecting me to change my schedule to fit theirs. My time is worth way more than a % discount
In Australia, MSRP for a box, like 3 blade guards, is $100. If my only option was to pay MSRP, I don't think I would have ever taken the plunge. Edit: I also don't have an LGS within a 30min drive and GW is about 1hr 30min away, so I only buy online.
Aussie prices are sometimes too much! Example Necromunda - Hive Secundus $290 at GW. My local store has it for $233 that's a massive difference. And I find it hard to justify paying that much more. I support my Local gaming store as much as I can, I also go to my Local GW store as the guys there are awesome, and I do buy SOME small items from the GW store just never my big purchases.
Buying online is so convenient now I think I'd rather just pay a membership to a club that offers benefits like painting workshops and a hangout space. My LGS basically only carries new releases for 40k and some GW paint pots, no tufts, no texture pastes, etc... It's really hard to support a place that is not offering a hobby experience outside of the prepackaged GW walled garden. Your shop sounds awesome but I think it's in a small minority of shops. PS I enjoyed your underworlds video because it was 90% not talking about underworlds, very happy it was just wall to wall garbage time.
Real issue IMO is GW price rallies. When I restarted e/o 8th Ed a codex was 37.50€ in Europe, now it's 47.50€. This is an insane increase for a product with a 3 yr lifespan at max (looking at astra mil players in 9th...). The anger on things like this drives customers to discount places. A reasonable MSRP would be perfectly fine and help LGS a lot. Launchboxes on the other hand provide a tremendous amount of value and IMO are absolute bargains. Opening skaventide, hivestorm, or even the new kill team starterbox is almost like unboxing your new high end phone: everything is nicely sleeved and offers great expirience. But the KT starterbox is cheaper as a single character model plus a codex. And this traps ppl into piles of opportunities or buying individual kits at discounted places. From your point it is a customer mentality, but doesn't GW promote exactly this behavior? Btw, I am spending a four digit number per year at my LGS, so I feel entiteled to comment the LGS customer perspective😉
There are some people that don't interact with a community (go to paint shops, play there, etc) and those customers are not ones you want anyway. You'll also get lots of people who min max everything, especially price, and you don't want them either. The customers you want are the social ones who want a community and will pay that premium. Competing on price alone for a market segment that you don't want is only good for GW as they get paid no matter what. The hard part is reached that specific market and building that sense of loyalty with them. Best of luck guys! Keep it up!
This is a difficult business. Not quite as bad as farming but close. As you describe they need to find a niche group of customers for a niche product. Social customers who also have the time and the money to invest.
@@griphere exactly. Don't get me wrong, they won't say no to a customer, but that isn't their bread and butter and shouldnt go out of their way. Other stores do go the volume route and have a different business model that this works for.
This business is a ‘car showroom’ model. If I go into the local Porsche garage they are going to quickly work out that I’m not going to buy. They aren’t going to waste time offering me a test drive or chatting to me about the lore / specs. It’s not a friendly environment but it is a business. I’m not sure why miniatures have to be like that.
On a serious note, the type of buyer I am is a deal hunter more or less as I just enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby side of thing. However, if you guys were my local hobby store I would not mind paying MSRP as what I get in return is your vast knowledge, experience in painting which is priceless as well as personalized customer service.
All fair points, and my local stores should thank you for the philosophy you share here. I do plan to see how many things I can just buy or order from my local stores next year. Sometimes supply is an issue, but unless I have a deadline for something, it's not like most of the time I can't deal with a delay, looking at all the boxes left in my hobby room.
Two ways to look at it. Firstly I prefer reliable/stable pricing as long as it's reasonable. If you can get deep discounts on something it becomes this kind of stressful hunt to find the best deal and if you get 20% off and then see it at 40% off later you feel bummed. So if an item costs $X everywhere or $X-10% everywhere that's great...again assuming the price is reasonable. Stable prices make it easier to shop. Secondly if I am buying a game/product from an online vendor I have no relationship with other than remotely buying stuff from I'm going to look for the best combo of price/stock/shipping. OTOH if I am buying from a FLGS where I hang out/play a game cost is not the primary factor. I do value the brick and mortar experience enough to pay more for it.
I'm a semi-regular customer at your store and you are 100% spot on about the customer service aspect. There are stores in my area that are both closer and offer bigger discounts but I skip them and go to Lords of War because you've already helped me so much with my painting. And I can trust that you'll be able to answer any questions I might have about the products you carry. But I'll have to disagree with your comment at 9:00. This Tyranid army I'm building is for sure going to be the cornerstone of my retirement plan, there's no way I can afford a house in this economy :(
You guys bring up so many valid points about justifiable reasons to charge MSRP. Sad thing is GW charges MSRP and those stores are not what they once were. They are not a place for the community to gather and bask in the hobby. they don't have amazing tables and terrain. Sad little playmats and hardly any terrain. When Chris ran GW Lawrence it was a pillar of the warhammer hobby in Toronto. Now GW wants you to buy stuff leave and go play somewhere else. for that reason when I am in the hobby I buy warhammer LITERALLY anywhere other than the GW store because I have lost faith in the purpose of those stores. I think a lot of hobbyists shop at stores with a discount as their own personal fight against the frivolous price increases. I was raised as a young hobbyist in GW stores... I was constantly dropped off with my models at the Oshawa center store and I would paint and play games alllllll the time. The cultural shift in the stores has been absolutely massive. Before it felt like GW cared about your hobby not just your money.
Having tables to play at is a huge boon. It does cost more to tool up for that, but really, it is an investment. My flgs, Warpfire Minis, sells at the max discount and has tons of tables for gaming. For me, that puts them as my go-to for warhammer and bolt action. I don't shun my other local store, Bearded Browncoat, for selling at msrp because they offer way more than gw. They've got video games, comics, every major card game, the new cyberpunk skirmish game, fallout wasteland warfare, and all the TTRPG gear a nerd could need. Plus, they carry Fanatics paint line. They also just put on a big wargaming event locally and it was awesome. This might sound like an ad for those shops, but it just comes to underline the point that shops can offer more than just the gw stuff and still have immense value.
Should I pay MSRP for Warhammer? Sure, why not. Do I pay MSRP for Warhammer? No, of course I don't. Now if somebody sets up a hobby store a block from my home, and it's the gaming equivalent of Cheers, and I can go in and paint, and hang out, and discuss all the flavors of Mountain Dew, and play my games, and play in a league, and you've got tables and terrain, and we high-five all the time, sure I'd pay MSRP, but nobody does that, so no.
ME again :D :P ;) I am actually Okay with MSRP: as long as a Store offers a third space, meaning not charging extra on top of that forproviding a decent playing or painting space, clean toilets etc. The service you guys seem top offer (not local so no idea, but trusting you on that) would be actual added value which I think makes paying MSRP okay. However if a store does not offer a third space or charges for it I would not be okay paying MSRP. The problem is if a store does not offer any value or charges for gaming tables, painting spaces, or help (I have seen all of that in various combinations) and the expects MSRP prices to be swallowed, is an issue. To me its either MSRP and Free Third Space, Disocunt and charge for Third Space (which is also fine in my humble opinion) I just cannot swallow paying full MSRP w/o any "return". So I actually think I am at least very close to your opinions and take on this topic.
I'll go to my LGS and pay 10% above Amazon and other online sellers to support my community. My LGS doesn't charge MSRP just the standard discount that most secondhand sellers do. They also sell us scarce stuff like the Hivestorm and Blood angels army box at MSRP. Guys like you need our support more then ever, and as a consumer I'm riding with the LGS until the wheels fall off. If the ship goes down I'm going down with you, I at least buy drinks from the vending machine if I don't buy models everytime I go to my LGS. Even though the convenience store down the street has fountain drinks at half the price.
Rare models do spike, just like cards do, both on the secondary market. So that's a bad example. GW fights everyone on the "rare" market by moving a ton of stuff to Direct Only. Also, there are places out there that sell GW for 30% off, apparently they just get creative to get around the cap. MSRP is for a physical store that people use space in, and that's about it. If they use your space, then they should buy from you.
Buying stuff gives a dopamine shot... hunting for the deal is also part of the process, part of the excitement. Then you get the stuff home and the dopamine rush goes away. It's a different hobby.
I can't accept that warhammer is expensive. The amount of entertainment a miniature kit brings in my life is so much higher than almost any other form of entertainment. The price vs time comes out to maybe two dollars per hour. Factoring in modeling, painting, sculpting, discussing, list building, and playing with an army. If you treat miniatures as just a game, it is expensive, but if you treat it as a hobby it's cheap.
Yeah bro this is the lynchpin that most real modelers understand, it's only expensive if you don't like building and painting and using your imagination. I spend days and days on a single box of Necromunda gangers talking to myself and doing funny voices. Imagining what they do and live like. Wah gwan
A $200 combat patrol would be about 100hrs of hobby time. That would be about 8hrs per month for me and I probably don’t give it that much. So that would be my one purchase for the year.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Well, I have been buying GW stuff since 94. Paid retail plenty of times over the years. In fact , I have spent thousands of dollar's with just GW. So pardon me if I feel like I paid my dues a hundred times over. Is that entitled? I'm sure it is.
I had so many questions, demands, concerns, after last video. This vid definitely clears things up quite a bit. Always love to hear the breakdowns on WHY. Feel better now about my hobby my stores and retail in general. Thank you for this.
I remember when I was making the pricing model for a coffee shop I managed, I realised that I pretty much had to set the price based on our overhead and what the owner wanted to make for profits and just trust that our customers are still willing to pay for our drinks and space as long as we provided the experience they wanted. Additionally, I have realised that a lot of negative customer reactions seem to come about when people think they are entitled to a discount or a bargain. I now work at a Fabric store, and little old ladies become vicious if they think a coupon should have worked, or that they swear they saw a discount sign. I even recognize this in myself. One of the negative reactions I had with my FLGS was when I had a coupon, and they emailed me asking if I wanted to pre-order something. I said yes and when I came in to pay it, I found out that they coupon don’t work there for pre-orders. So I kind of felt duped. I don’t think they meant it that way; and I’ve gotten over it, but still that is how I felt in the moment. Because it of that I’m growing to have the opinion that there should be no discounts, no sales, people just pay MSRP and everyone would be happier. lol
Really good food for thought here. Im definitely a deal hunter and then I end up with piles of unpainted minis. In theory I can always return to something I bought for a "good deal" down the line but a lot of it just collects dust. Def reevaluating my buying habits going into the holiday season and new year.
You guys are great, and if we ever happen to be in the same space I’d love to buy you some drinks. But with that… This one does confuse me a bit. Not for the basic idea, but kinda where you are going in the conversation. It used to be, if there was not a hobby store, I’d have to wait months to find something or go direct with a catalog and wait again, or I just could not get it. But, these days, now I can find anything I want and am patient enough to search for. Even you guys have said you’d can’t stock anything that’s not a pretty good bet on a return. If the name in the box is not Warhammer, most places don’t carry it anyway. This makes me go online out of necessity , since if you don’t have it I have to wait anyway. For value…I guess that is a thing perhaps, but I’m not looking to sell and don’t really use eBay for anything I can’t find normally. I fully understand you’re selling the store as a service, but if I’m not needing that, then I’m essentially paying you guys extra for being good people. Much of this just comes from being in Dallas for 40+ years. I can find anything I want and have it here in a handful of days. 20 years ago, I’d almost pay double for a store, because they might be able to find what I was looking for. Stores don’t stay around like they used to, so it’s hard to put any type of trust in a store, or even worry about a store in general.
It sounds like you don't have 'your place' where you get to feel like you matter. I get what you are saying, and I agree you need to go where you need to go to get what you want. But some people want that relationship where they go into their local hobby shop and it's like 'Cheers' where people remember your name, you can have a conversation with the owners, and get some value beyond what you are buying.
My LGS charges MSRP for Warhammer but they also offer a rewards program. Earn stamps for every 10 dollars you spend. Get 10 stamps and you get a 10 dollar coupon. Pre-order? You get double stamps. Pre-ordering Leviathan earned me $50 in store credit. Sure, I have to spend it there and it's not exactly the same as SAVING money, but still.
I collect and paint, the only thing I need from a store is stock and a good price. I don't care if your store offers gaming tables, painting services, etc. so I'm not going to pay MSRP. All my LGS have terrible stock (even the GW store when it comes to TOW has only the core boxes and no apologies) and charge full price so I shop online from other Canadian stores or grudgingly pay GW to get their exclusive models. If you want MSRP from online shoppers you're probably going to need to bring something to the table to get their business (more than just a RUclips channel). I get the argument that you're helping to bring other people into the hobby and that's good for everyone, but buying models online at 10-15% discount is my contribution to the hobby and is keeping stores open (all my online stores are also local gaming stores - just not local to me). As a business would you prefer 200K in sales at a 10% discount or 40K in sales at MSRP? To say, oh well, what's another 15% to buy from us, "that's nothing" - but that 10-15% discount has saved me over $1500 over the past three years. So as a business do you want my patronage and if so how are you going to get it? If that's not your model and you can keep your doors open with MSRP that's great for you and your local customers but for me I'd be paying more to get the same. (Oh, and I do have a preference for one online store in particular because they have better stock, more stock, offer better prices on used mini's and do offer things for online buyers like me (loyalty, etc.) so I don't mind paying them a bit more and don't just buy the model from whomever offers it for the least).
If i can buy from the place i play my games at i will, usually i play bolt action at a shop 1 hour from my house so i buy there. When i played Legion i was playing at a different shop and bought my models there despite the further shop being cheaper. I stopped buying from the local GW when they stopped having gaming tables because i had no reason to go there anymore. Buy where you play, keep those places open.
Value is relative. I feel bad about paying MSRP for any regular 40K unit because they do get included in the "value boxes" so as consumer you know they could be priced less. You can also look at other games-workshop miniature games and see that there's a premium included in the price of 40K miniatures compared to other games. And since this is a hobby, you know if you put your own time and effort you can make a cool looking miniature giving you that value without paying the MSRP for it. Then there's also plenty of other companies making high quality plastic kits, bandai and tamiya provide a lot more value upfront at a lower MSRP without that extra premium attached because you might play a tabletop wargame with them in the future. But what I'm really arguing here isn't that nobody should charge games-workshop MSRP, but why I shouldn't impulsively purchase something at MSRP because as you mentioned in the video I might not even need it. I'm perfectly happy to buy their single limited miniature, that isn't at all limited, for $50 because it's cool. So at least for me it's not about deal hunting but it only being another reason to avoid an impulse purchase that I might end up regretting.
Currency is a current. If a product sits on shelf, regardless of product and price, it causes stagnation and anaerobic. Healthy rivers are oxygenated and have plenty of diversity in species. The spice must flow. If any product has sat on shelf or peg for too long they find themselves on sale or clearance and it's often far after the product should have sold. I had a LGS and the guy running it never got anything in I asked for. People were playing warcry and necromunda in his store but her never stocked them instead he would stock 40k and heresy and kill team, I would ask him to get me paints and tamia glue and he didn't even know what tamia glue was... Guess what happened?
I don't buy at the Warhammer store period and I won't pay full MSRP on web orders (including Amazon or Ebay). I'll only pay full MSRP at my local hobby store, which provides a place to play & meet (14 gaming tables & terrain to use).
I'm less concerned about rare models when my most basic and cheapest point cost troops that I need a lot of cost $60 for 10 of them in an army that needs 40+ miniatures. I can respect that stores need to make a profit and I have even told my FLGS that I will always check with them first for any sale, if they can't get it or order it them I'll go online. But when half the stuff I want is webstore exclusive then secondary market is the only option sometimes.
Don't forget customer service. Have you ever had a problem with your Gmail? It's a nightmare because there isnt anyone to talk to. A good hobby store can actually save you money..if you listen to them. As hobbyists how many dead ends have we impulse bought? This is made worse when buying is just one click.
I've paid full MSRP for a lot of Warhammer, including both Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero and a good chunk of my Necromunda books, and much more. I've also purchased online, on Amazon, and for a while was grabbing tons of used lots of Orks on eBay. I don't mind paying full price, but I also at this point in my life manage to get to the flgs for an actual game maybe three to four times a year, so I also don't feel guilty taking advantage of online pricing. I've now moved states, but my previous flgs was one of the biggest game stores in the Southeast and I've seen online how quickly they move GW product on launch day.
Personally I think that is mostly GWs fault, couple of price increases per year is what makes people go "gotta shop for bargains". I think that is mostly psychology driven and not based in an actual need to shop at -15% (most of the time).
Great Videos. The LGS near me is actually a local family owned art supply store they do not offer any discounts. I support them even though there are GW stores within 20 minutes of me.
I don't think buying MSRP is stupid especially if it is from a store you like. I buy most of my new warhammer for MSRP but I also buy quite a bit used and kitbash my Orks so I end up spending less money anyway. But I also don't think it is stupid wanting to pay less especially for kits that are expensive that you likely want multiple off like Ad Mech Dragoons/Ironstriders. In that case I fully support looking for a discount.
Great thoughts. I love hearing the business end of things and the opinions and points you both bring up in these videos are well thought out. They bring good insight into a hobby many of us love. Thanks for sharing!
A good game store is priceless so I will always buy something even if it’s just a bottle of paint or a reaper mini. However there’s a lot of crappy game stores out there that are the epitome of gamer stereotypes. I had a local game store that was basically a couple guys running a game room disguised as a store lol. They weren’t interested in you as a customer unless you were buying $50-$100 in GW or MTG. Guess what? They just closed their doors permanently. I think we in this hobby have toxic players and toxic shops and toxic companies. When you have good players, good shops, and good companies that’s where the magic happens and people are willing to pay for that.
A hard no from me. But, since I live in the Netherlands it would be hard not to. Most, if not all, LGSs here offer a discount (ranging from 10% to 20%). And since they almost all got websites, they sell online. Given the size of my country It'd be hard for an LGS to compete in the (online) scene if they didn't offer a discount. These aren't huge stores either. All of them are just local shops who have an online webstore.
There are 3 different local stores here and I buy nothing but paint from them. I’m not paying MSRP. But I don’t play or really do anything but buy paint at the stores. If I used the stores for other things I would pay more.
We don’t have a lgs that does regular discounts. I do sometimes make big ticket purchases on eBay at a discount. I try to spread my spending to different locations.
Most of the LGS around here don’t stock much if any Old World so I usually buy direct from GW for things that sell out fast or online if it’s a great deal on a battalion box or something
Yes. Yes you are . Of course sometimes you have no other option. Store can't order nexus cards, but you need them play this seson? Tough luck. A kid who can't order stuff online ? Well local GW it is. GW decided that in your region the product be hard to impossible to get? Tough luck again.
I can say with certainty that I would have a far smaller pile of shame if I had to buy everything direct from GW. I know I'm a sucker for something that looks like a "good deal"...
I figured there would be another video about this after that last one. I buy from my lgs when they have what I want in stock, or offer easy way to pre-order. I prefer if they have the standard 15%, but I don't make a big deal about it if they don't. I will normally attempt to get big boxes($200+) for the discount though.
There are three different groups with differing priorities. 1. Share holders. 2. Company (GW). 3.. Customer. They don't have the same priorities. e.g. when I was trying to collect a wood elf army in the 90s was basically impossible, as a teenager. I barely had enough to build a 500 point army. The shareholders simply don't care about this. GW is in the middle, trying to please the customer, whilst maintaining "value" for shareholders. My view come from poor people trying to do what they enjoy. I don't think everything that GW makes is expensive. The latest blood bowl box set is a good value. Although it does seem expensive. Even GW barebones extra teams are reasonable value. If you buy after market teams and pitch etc, you'll probably spend more. The issue is trying to buy a full team. GW does forget it's customers, sometimes. I'm personally, happy to buy from local shops. I also like supporting other talented sculptors, like greebo-games etc. I have stopped buying from stores like amazon. I wish people were more understanding of other peoples personal situations. Health and financial. Treat people the same.
I rarely pay msrp for GW stuff, but then I am in the UK where, I honestly can't think of any lgs here that doesn't offer at least 10% off, I'm lucky in that my local one offers 20% off (maybe the max discount varies by region?), I only pay msrp for stuff that GW dosen't offer to 3rd party stores, the online only stuff and Forgeworld mainly. Though I do also try to avoid offical GW stores just because of how the staff is all over you (yes I know that's what they are told to do). It's good like you mentioned that GW doesn't allow a run on their products, if a product is dirt cheap, then you'll have a very hard time convincing customers to ever pay more (I don't think I've paid full price for a video game in years now) or even buy it at all, it's gets into the "why is this so cheap compared to everything else? It must be a bad product", there's a logic to pricing things a premium price (see any Apple product ever), it's a bit of a physiological trick that premium price must equal premium product.
I'm in the UK. Near me there's four main stores. There was a FLGS that didn't offer any discount or gaming space, and they just didn't sell any GW product. They ended up selling off their entire GW stock on clearance and increased their historical and model railway ranges instead. They do okay and they're still going, with a much older customer base. Then there's a store with some gaming space that offers max discounts and they're doing great, especially online - they've employed extra people just to keep up with their online sales. They're looking for a bigger location now, but don't really want to leave the shopping centre they're in - it's Local Council owned and they get really competitive rent prices there. They always have people in store. And then there's a FLGS with two floors of just gaming tables, and a shop floor. They're at the end of a smaller high street away from the main city centre but still easy to get to. They run tonnes of free events (including things like D&D Adventurer's League even), sell drinks/snacks, open really late and take money deposits to book tables in advance which they'll fill with terrain for whatever game you want to play and charge £5 per table on the weekends. They don't discount products as heavily, but are thriving because of the community they're building and the amount of people they get in the door. Lastly we've got our Warhammer store. It's four different types of offering all running a successful business in their own way.
@@waaaghzag For sure there's space for multiple styles of store if they are managed well. Going to be harder to get people in the door though without a discount. Especially these days where you can easily get this stuff online. But as you said and in the video - offering things other than just low prices will keep your customers loyal and coming back even without the lowest possible prices.
@@EvilBearSkirmish Exactly so the endless increasing of prices makes very little sense. The profit margins of their minis is INSANE already. Sadly being publicly traded they just want ALL of the money. Being profitable each year just simply isn't ever enough.
@@EvilBearSkirmish Yeah but it's not about the raw materials, making a mold to print a plastic mini costs a lot more than a machine to crank out cardboard. The biggest problem for most people like me is that a big chunk of the GW miniatures price is to make share holders happy - but hey, nobody is forcing you to buy their models, they aren't selling water or air necessary for life.
@@IrulianDark very much so, look at how much the boss takes, thats not money from his labour, same with share holders, short term its great for the sgare holders, but the keep chasing more profit they will start loosing the community more and more. we understand they need to pay staff, and we understand they have bills, but when the top guy and shareholders suck the life financialy and artisticly from the company its not a great feeling as a consumer.
In Montreal, the only store that doesn’t discount is the Warhammer store, ironically. Also, resale on miniatures is not great. At least it’s not an argument for GW’s high prices. One major recession and nobody will buy this stuff except for the rich, like me I suppose.
My lgs has monthly membership to get discount. I more pay it to keep the store open though only play maybe 2 or 3 times a year there. My pile of shame is more I feel bad if I don't buy stuff from them once in a while. Though I don't really have time to hobby but someday maybe.
This one is a bit of an odd one, but it is a continuation of the last one. Unless it was only available exclusively from GW, I wouldn't buy from them, but I don't see them adding value to my hobby. Recruitment also serves them, and increasingly, I feel they aren't the great ambassadors for the wider hobby they used to be. Then again, I have tried supporting local stores over online discounters, and I don't see GW as essentially any different. Sometimes the discount shifts it over the tipping point though You touched on the wider point of value in the hobby space, which is entirely subjective, what I am willing to pay is probably a lot less than what others are willing to pay for some products and visa versa. That is a really complex mix of how I will derive enjoyment from that particular product, what my current hobby focus is and how that fits with the product. Skaventide is heavily discounted in a lot of places currently, but those discounts aren't making it an attractive proposition to me. Shatterpoint came out and while I could see the value in the box abstractly I had no room for it in my current hobby. It lingers as a maybe but honestly it isn't getting on the paint table in at least the next year so it can stay on the shelf. As to hobby backlogs, currently on my third purge, and in all truth I am expecting 600 minis to be gone by the time I am done, mainly the legacy of old discounts and GW being a second job to one that paid much better. That still funds new projects nearly 20 years later.
I think alot of the hesistation to paying MSRP is that there are never sales, and GW is always hiking the price. My shop only sells new and the only competition is the GW shop so there isn't any incentive to be lower. I go to the local for new releases and ordering models because I want to keep them going but it's not really possible to get everything from them. Sometimes you just want to catch a break since even used eBay prices are close to MSRP.
Would be interesting to know how retailers feel about bundled boxsets, which GW discounts much more heavily than retailers are allowed to discount models and in a way it is the retailers that feel the pinch (less purchases in their store, less profit on same amount of models sold AND more shelf space taken. Also do retailers wish they could offer bigger discounts with loyalty reward schemes? Those often seem very limited and certainly are never generous enough to justify paying full rrp over discounted rrp.
The bundle boxes are great in small doses. Certain ones can be slam dunk releases that sell quickly. Other ones can sit for months or years. Generally its not too bad and they almost always eventually sell through. The key for us is to just not over order them.
Im interested to know where you fellas are located, and if thats maybe a factor at all? In my little corner of Ohio, none of our shops sell at MSRP, and I think the fact that they all know that one another offer the standard 15% discount kinda deters one another.
i like these talking head video's, it's from a perspective that I haven't seen before. Talking about not having seen things before. Can you guys show your store a bit more? What shelf space are you running since you talk about walls being prime real estate. Could you show examples of what you are talking about? Not sure if taht is an option or if that would be to much 'peek in the kitchen'-vibes then?
Short answer yes unless you’re supporting a flgs, then I say support where you play. If you aren’t playing at a lgs yes you are stupid for paying msrp imo of course.
There are more reasons than gaming to support your local store. Maybe they are great for advice on painting or hobbying. Maybe you get on well with the people and value personal relationships. Maybe you like knowing that when that hard to get thing comes around you can ask the lads to make sure you get one. Just a thought, obvs not for everyone. Cheers!
Two men who buy their Warhammer for 50%+ off tell me to pay MSRP 😂 In all seriousness - I don’t mins buying at MSRP but the way I see it I buy a lot more stuff at discount that it probably adds up to more value for my local store.
I’m looking at a Dominion box right this minute that I bought because the store was almost giving it away. ($115.00, iirc still during 3rd ed) What’s my point? My point is that I’m looking at this unopened box... again UNOPENED. Sometimes maybe you’re better off not chasing bargains that just turn into stuff you’ll never use.
Again - I appreciate you both educating the market. My impression is that you both deliver so much value to your community that the discount more than pays for itself.
I’m not a store owner, but one thing that I really dislike is when people use the store like a show room. Going into the store so they can get a hands-on look at the product and then looking online (sometimes on their phone, while they’re still standing in the aisles), for the cheapest price. It’s one thing if it’s a “used” item, I guess, and you give the shop owner a chance to meet the price. But doing that with current production items is pretty crappy.
The annoying thing of this video is that you throw shade at the discount place while saying you are taking the high road. In actuality, both kinds of stores do what they think is good business. You don’t scalp your in-demand products on eBay because it’s wrong or mean. You don’t because it’s bad for your business. You keep steady prices, not for nobility of purpose, but because it’s good for your business. You don’t advertise to your costumers that you paint and build at wholesale prices, because it’s good for your business. In the end everyone, the customers and the businesses, can do what they want with their money and what they buy with their money.
I don't agree with the point of "why do want so many miniatures anyway? If you cannot afford a lot of miniatures you'll have a better hobby experience!" I think it's condescending. But I agree that a race to the bottom is not good for stores or buyers, and in the past that caused a lot of problems.
I think you are twisting our words a little bit there. We were simply stating (based on our experience) that getting more toys isn't always actually better for your experience. Everyone with a haunting grey pile of unused shame can relate to this.
BS. no one even pays half for used warhammer. MSRP has no control over how high something can go because theres no telling when it will come back into stock. what if a game dies. good luck.
trying to appeal to cheap people isn't the fool proof plan that folks seem to think it is. if people are loyal on everything you do, except price, they'll keep coming back. If you are running an LGS pawn shop and literally only trying to compete on price; you're going to always lose to places that offer better value besides just the price. Basically, cheap people have no loyalty; why would you want to cater your business to them? Your business should be a whole foods, not a 99 cents store.
I think also (maybe ill be proven wrong one day), I don't know if you can get a model kit like warhammer to sell at such volume to make it work as a '99cent store' commodity.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 401 Games. Imaginaire. MeepleMart. That dude who sells out of his garage (I forget his store's name). A lot of them show their stock level on their website and you'll see them regularly blow through dozens or hundreds of kits. Obviously they sell board games, cards, Funko, etc., but they make enough on miniatures to keep carrying them and even expand (401 now stocks Malifaux, for example). So with the right set-up, you definitely can sell hobby stuff for volume. Though naturally those aren't really FLGS's, except that MeepleMart is testing the waters with a play space again after the community robbed him blind the last couple of times he attempted it.
First off I think you’re absolutely right competing on Pryce is a fool errand because there will always be someplace that will make long-term decisions that let them compete at a lower price point in the short term and they won’t be around next year, but if you want to you can’t do that I also think it’s interesting to point out that generally dollar stores for a large number of things they sell or not actually cheaper if you were to look at a a cost per unit price for example sure you might be able to buy a bar of soap for $1.25 but if you go to more traditional retailer, they might not sell a single bar of soap, but you can buy a 10 pack for $10 or something to that effect yes you’re spending less money at that moment but it’s generally because you have less money to spend, and therefore have to take the worst deal at the end of the day
Pay MSRP for Warhammer? I don't even like paying the 15% off FLGS prices for Warhammer. I prefer to cruise FB marketplace for used kits and joblots. Because GW is trying to scree us, so screw them first.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Make no mistake. I love my local hobby store. I buy paints, flocking, x-acto blades, other model kits (tamiya, bandai, etc.) from them. They sell trains, plains, and all manner of games, but giving GW money directly is consent to their anti-consumer behaviors (fomo, constant price hikes, and shrinkfation). So yes, support your local store, but say no to GW's many abuses.
So what if I know more than the store owner and have a table and people to play with at home? What extra value are you offering me so that I choose your store over any other?
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Jesus if that's how you talk to the people who come to your store. No wonder you have a volume of sales problem. You sound like the type of guys who used to look down on women coming into hobby shops and assume they're there for the man in their life.
It's very beneficial to me that there is a hobby shop building a community for the games I care about. Gives me more people to play with. That has added value even if I have access to a good gaming space at home and know more about my favourite game than the store owner(s).
@@rddragon5Look, if you only paint and play at home, you don't get value from a store like this, and that's totally okay. In that case you'll also shop around for the best prices online because the value for you personally is in the pricing, digital experience, delivery and customer service on offer. That's also okay and the added value for you is in those things offered by a different retailer instead.
I am a store owner that does discounting, but I will note we are in very rural area. We do it as a) we are trying to get people to travel to visit us (have to make the gas spend worthwhile) and b) average wages in rural areas are usually much lower than in urban areas, so it has helped keep Warhammer attainable for the larger swath of people we have with lower incomes. I do not begrudge full MSRP stores in the least, urban rent is much higher than rural, and you have to keep the lights on. At the end of the day, there's lots of business cases for each model, and I'm glad both store types have room to exist.
Thanks man and the best of luck to you
Releasing this video as The Battle Forces Boxes/Christmas Boxes are being released. Violence has been chosen.
Peace was never an option
I know right, max spice
i was tinking last night, i doubt many people will be getting the christmas box for christmas or be able to buy one the week befor christmas.
I gladly pay MSRP at my local FLGS for the same reason I am happy to pay taxes that go toward my local parks, library and schools. Shit costs money and you gotta pay for these public services otherwise they go away.
6:20 This made me think of my parents back in the 90s - I was huge into video games, and they cultivated a relationship with a local independent video game store that basically only had EB as a direct competitor in my area. I think it was Super Mario RPG that was super hard to get, and I WANTED it. The owner of the store knew that they were loyal customers and held one aside for them no questions asked. They very likely paid a little bit of a markup, but that premium is so worth it to have that kind of relationship.
I am an infrequent customer at Lords of War but I can attest that their customer service is amongst the best - I have often come in for painting help and the time and care that they have given me always makes me feel very valued as a customer and a friend.
I was recruited by the local Warhammer store on 9th edition. I thought I was on a gradual path of build - paint - play as a casual player but then 10th and all the churn just felt like starting again. I have a pile of grey to paint so it’s hard to justify buying more models if I can’t play. I feel 40K doesn’t nurture a community in the long run.
amazing that you learned that so quickly. xD
As someone that prefers offers below MSRP I understand your point.
I hit a point where I have more minis than I can paint in reasonable time... and new ones are released every month. I've abandoned monthly purchases within my hobby budget and instead buy when I really want to.
I feel like great customer experience is valuable, but hard to quantify or put a price on. It great that it works for your store
So this video relates directly to the last one about supporting your local flgs.. I pay msrp there for GW because I'm supporting a small business that keeps the community going. He's got a discord now, and he asks the locals what they want every week, so he can plan his GW buys thoughtfully. I get my launch boxes and starter kits all through him, because it's more than just a sale. It's a local game center
I am really enjoying the videos. The openness about the challenges running a small business are appreciated. Too often people only look at what they spend on something without considering everything that goes into what it takes to get it in their hands.
The LGS where I live discounts 5-7% online for most things. My local GW store is my main go to store due to location, assistance, knowing my name when I walk in etc. I am lucky to have a well run local GW.
I know there is a discount that would get me to buy something elsewhere, but not sure what it is. I do know $5-20 is not it.
I don't give my local stores that charge MSRP grief, they're just trying to survithinone thing i have noticed, and this is probably just my area, is that the local stores that give a 15% discount all have better tables and more space to play. I think they just get more business
Does the lgs make it easy for me to buy from them. IE are they open late so a person working a normal job can visit? Or are they expecting me to change my schedule to fit theirs. My time is worth way more than a % discount
Great point 👉
It’s not just price it’s the atmosphere of the shop.
That keeps people coming back.
In Australia, MSRP for a box, like 3 blade guards, is $100. If my only option was to pay MSRP, I don't think I would have ever taken the plunge.
Edit: I also don't have an LGS within a 30min drive and GW is about 1hr 30min away, so I only buy online.
Aussie prices are sometimes too much! Example Necromunda - Hive Secundus $290 at GW. My local store has it for $233 that's a massive difference. And I find it hard to justify paying that much more. I support my Local gaming store as much as I can, I also go to my Local GW store as the guys there are awesome, and I do buy SOME small items from the GW store just never my big purchases.
Buying online is so convenient now I think I'd rather just pay a membership to a club that offers benefits like painting workshops and a hangout space. My LGS basically only carries new releases for 40k and some GW paint pots, no tufts, no texture pastes, etc... It's really hard to support a place that is not offering a hobby experience outside of the prepackaged GW walled garden. Your shop sounds awesome but I think it's in a small minority of shops.
PS I enjoyed your underworlds video because it was 90% not talking about underworlds, very happy it was just wall to wall garbage time.
Real issue IMO is GW price rallies. When I restarted e/o 8th Ed a codex was 37.50€ in Europe, now it's 47.50€. This is an insane increase for a product with a 3 yr lifespan at max (looking at astra mil players in 9th...). The anger on things like this drives customers to discount places. A reasonable MSRP would be perfectly fine and help LGS a lot. Launchboxes on the other hand provide a tremendous amount of value and IMO are absolute bargains. Opening skaventide, hivestorm, or even the new kill team starterbox is almost like unboxing your new high end phone: everything is nicely sleeved and offers great expirience. But the KT starterbox is cheaper as a single character model plus a codex. And this traps ppl into piles of opportunities or buying individual kits at discounted places.
From your point it is a customer mentality, but doesn't GW promote exactly this behavior?
Btw, I am spending a four digit number per year at my LGS, so I feel entiteled to comment the LGS customer perspective😉
There are some people that don't interact with a community (go to paint shops, play there, etc) and those customers are not ones you want anyway.
You'll also get lots of people who min max everything, especially price, and you don't want them either.
The customers you want are the social ones who want a community and will pay that premium. Competing on price alone for a market segment that you don't want is only good for GW as they get paid no matter what.
The hard part is reached that specific market and building that sense of loyalty with them.
Best of luck guys! Keep it up!
This is a difficult business. Not quite as bad as farming but close. As you describe they need to find a niche group of customers for a niche product. Social customers who also have the time and the money to invest.
@@griphere exactly. Don't get me wrong, they won't say no to a customer, but that isn't their bread and butter and shouldnt go out of their way.
Other stores do go the volume route and have a different business model that this works for.
This business is a ‘car showroom’ model. If I go into the local Porsche garage they are going to quickly work out that I’m not going to buy. They aren’t going to waste time offering me a test drive or chatting to me about the lore / specs. It’s not a friendly environment but it is a business. I’m not sure why miniatures have to be like that.
On a serious note, the type of buyer I am is a deal hunter more or less as I just enjoy the painting aspect of the hobby side of thing. However, if you guys were my local hobby store I would not mind paying MSRP as what I get in return is your vast knowledge, experience in painting which is priceless as well as personalized customer service.
All fair points, and my local stores should thank you for the philosophy you share here. I do plan to see how many things I can just buy or order from my local stores next year. Sometimes supply is an issue, but unless I have a deadline for something, it's not like most of the time I can't deal with a delay, looking at all the boxes left in my hobby room.
Two ways to look at it. Firstly I prefer reliable/stable pricing as long as it's reasonable. If you can get deep discounts on something it becomes this kind of stressful hunt to find the best deal and if you get 20% off and then see it at 40% off later you feel bummed. So if an item costs $X everywhere or $X-10% everywhere that's great...again assuming the price is reasonable. Stable prices make it easier to shop. Secondly if I am buying a game/product from an online vendor I have no relationship with other than remotely buying stuff from I'm going to look for the best combo of price/stock/shipping. OTOH if I am buying from a FLGS where I hang out/play a game cost is not the primary factor. I do value the brick and mortar experience enough to pay more for it.
I'm a semi-regular customer at your store and you are 100% spot on about the customer service aspect. There are stores in my area that are both closer and offer bigger discounts but I skip them and go to Lords of War because you've already helped me so much with my painting. And I can trust that you'll be able to answer any questions I might have about the products you carry.
But I'll have to disagree with your comment at 9:00. This Tyranid army I'm building is for sure going to be the cornerstone of my retirement plan, there's no way I can afford a house in this economy :(
You guys bring up so many valid points about justifiable reasons to charge MSRP. Sad thing is GW charges MSRP and those stores are not what they once were. They are not a place for the community to gather and bask in the hobby. they don't have amazing tables and terrain. Sad little playmats and hardly any terrain. When Chris ran GW Lawrence it was a pillar of the warhammer hobby in Toronto. Now GW wants you to buy stuff leave and go play somewhere else. for that reason when I am in the hobby I buy warhammer LITERALLY anywhere other than the GW store because I have lost faith in the purpose of those stores. I think a lot of hobbyists shop at stores with a discount as their own personal fight against the frivolous price increases. I was raised as a young hobbyist in GW stores... I was constantly dropped off with my models at the Oshawa center store and I would paint and play games alllllll the time. The cultural shift in the stores has been absolutely massive. Before it felt like GW cared about your hobby not just your money.
Having tables to play at is a huge boon. It does cost more to tool up for that, but really, it is an investment. My flgs, Warpfire Minis, sells at the max discount and has tons of tables for gaming. For me, that puts them as my go-to for warhammer and bolt action. I don't shun my other local store, Bearded Browncoat, for selling at msrp because they offer way more than gw. They've got video games, comics, every major card game, the new cyberpunk skirmish game, fallout wasteland warfare, and all the TTRPG gear a nerd could need. Plus, they carry Fanatics paint line. They also just put on a big wargaming event locally and it was awesome. This might sound like an ad for those shops, but it just comes to underline the point that shops can offer more than just the gw stuff and still have immense value.
Always enjoy your insight on the hobby. Could you guys do a store tour one day? I'd love to see the store layout.
Should I pay MSRP for Warhammer? Sure, why not.
Do I pay MSRP for Warhammer? No, of course I don't.
Now if somebody sets up a hobby store a block from my home, and it's the gaming equivalent of Cheers, and I can go in and paint, and hang out, and discuss all the flavors of Mountain Dew, and play my games, and play in a league, and you've got tables and terrain, and we high-five all the time, sure I'd pay MSRP, but nobody does that, so no.
You clearly don't live close to our shop! Lol
ME again :D :P ;)
I am actually Okay with MSRP: as long as a Store offers a third space, meaning not charging extra on top of that forproviding a decent playing or painting space, clean toilets etc. The service you guys seem top offer (not local so no idea, but trusting you on that) would be actual added value which I think makes paying MSRP okay. However if a store does not offer a third space or charges for it I would not be okay paying MSRP. The problem is if a store does not offer any value or charges for gaming tables, painting spaces, or help (I have seen all of that in various combinations) and the expects MSRP prices to be swallowed, is an issue. To me its either MSRP and Free Third Space, Disocunt and charge for Third Space (which is also fine in my humble opinion) I just cannot swallow paying full MSRP w/o any "return". So I actually think I am at least very close to your opinions and take on this topic.
I'll go to my LGS and pay 10% above Amazon and other online sellers to support my community. My LGS doesn't charge MSRP just the standard discount that most secondhand sellers do. They also sell us scarce stuff like the Hivestorm and Blood angels army box at MSRP. Guys like you need our support more then ever, and as a consumer I'm riding with the LGS until the wheels fall off. If the ship goes down I'm going down with you, I at least buy drinks from the vending machine if I don't buy models everytime I go to my LGS. Even though the convenience store down the street has fountain drinks at half the price.
I dropped $300 on Eldar and Blood angels models at my LGS last week actually.
Rare models do spike, just like cards do, both on the secondary market. So that's a bad example. GW fights everyone on the "rare" market by moving a ton of stuff to Direct Only. Also, there are places out there that sell GW for 30% off, apparently they just get creative to get around the cap. MSRP is for a physical store that people use space in, and that's about it. If they use your space, then they should buy from you.
Buying stuff gives a dopamine shot... hunting for the deal is also part of the process, part of the excitement. Then you get the stuff home and the dopamine rush goes away. It's a different hobby.
I can't accept that warhammer is expensive. The amount of entertainment a miniature kit brings in my life is so much higher than almost any other form of entertainment.
The price vs time comes out to maybe two dollars per hour. Factoring in modeling, painting, sculpting, discussing, list building, and playing with an army. If you treat miniatures as just a game, it is expensive, but if you treat it as a hobby it's cheap.
Yeah bro this is the lynchpin that most real modelers understand, it's only expensive if you don't like building and painting and using your imagination. I spend days and days on a single box of Necromunda gangers talking to myself and doing funny voices. Imagining what they do and live like. Wah gwan
A $200 combat patrol would be about 100hrs of hobby time. That would be about 8hrs per month for me and I probably don’t give it that much. So that would be my one purchase for the year.
When the cardboard box the figures come in costs more than the miniatures themselves . No. I won't be paying MSRP . Ever.
That's one way to look at it i suppose.
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Well, I have been buying GW stuff since 94. Paid retail plenty of times over the years. In fact , I have spent thousands of dollar's with just GW. So pardon me if I feel like I paid my dues a hundred times over. Is that entitled? I'm sure it is.
I had so many questions, demands, concerns, after last video. This vid definitely clears things up quite a bit. Always love to hear the breakdowns on WHY. Feel better now about my hobby my stores and retail in general. Thank you for this.
I remember when I was making the pricing model for a coffee shop I managed, I realised that I pretty much had to set the price based on our overhead and what the owner wanted to make for profits and just trust that our customers are still willing to pay for our drinks and space as long as we provided the experience they wanted.
Additionally, I have realised that a lot of negative customer reactions seem to come about when people think they are entitled to a discount or a bargain. I now work at a Fabric store, and little old ladies become vicious if they think a coupon should have worked, or that they swear they saw a discount sign. I even recognize this in myself. One of the negative reactions I had with my FLGS was when I had a coupon, and they emailed me asking if I wanted to pre-order something. I said yes and when I came in to pay it, I found out that they coupon don’t work there for pre-orders. So I kind of felt duped. I don’t think they meant it that way; and I’ve gotten over it, but still that is how I felt in the moment. Because it of that I’m growing to have the opinion that there should be no discounts, no sales, people just pay MSRP and everyone would be happier. lol
Really good food for thought here. Im definitely a deal hunter and then I end up with piles of unpainted minis. In theory I can always return to something I bought for a "good deal" down the line but a lot of it just collects dust. Def reevaluating my buying habits going into the holiday season and new year.
You guys are great, and if we ever happen to be in the same space I’d love to buy you some drinks. But with that…
This one does confuse me a bit. Not for the basic idea, but kinda where you are going in the conversation. It used to be, if there was not a hobby store, I’d have to wait months to find something or go direct with a catalog and wait again, or I just could not get it. But, these days, now I can find anything I want and am patient enough to search for. Even you guys have said you’d can’t stock anything that’s not a pretty good bet on a return. If the name in the box is not Warhammer, most places don’t carry it anyway. This makes me go online out of necessity , since if you don’t have it I have to wait anyway.
For value…I guess that is a thing perhaps, but I’m not looking to sell and don’t really use eBay for anything I can’t find normally.
I fully understand you’re selling the store as a service, but if I’m not needing that, then I’m essentially paying you guys extra for being good people.
Much of this just comes from being in Dallas for 40+ years. I can find anything I want and have it here in a handful of days. 20 years ago, I’d almost pay double for a store, because they might be able to find what I was looking for. Stores don’t stay around like they used to, so it’s hard to put any type of trust in a store, or even worry about a store in general.
It sounds like you don't have 'your place' where you get to feel like you matter. I get what you are saying, and I agree you need to go where you need to go to get what you want.
But some people want that relationship where they go into their local hobby shop and it's like 'Cheers' where people remember your name, you can have a conversation with the owners, and get some value beyond what you are buying.
My LGS charges MSRP for Warhammer but they also offer a rewards program. Earn stamps for every 10 dollars you spend. Get 10 stamps and you get a 10 dollar coupon. Pre-order? You get double stamps. Pre-ordering Leviathan earned me $50 in store credit. Sure, I have to spend it there and it's not exactly the same as SAVING money, but still.
I collect and paint, the only thing I need from a store is stock and a good price. I don't care if your store offers gaming tables, painting services, etc. so I'm not going to pay MSRP. All my LGS have terrible stock (even the GW store when it comes to TOW has only the core boxes and no apologies) and charge full price so I shop online from other Canadian stores or grudgingly pay GW to get their exclusive models. If you want MSRP from online shoppers you're probably going to need to bring something to the table to get their business (more than just a RUclips channel). I get the argument that you're helping to bring other people into the hobby and that's good for everyone, but buying models online at 10-15% discount is my contribution to the hobby and is keeping stores open (all my online stores are also local gaming stores - just not local to me). As a business would you prefer 200K in sales at a 10% discount or 40K in sales at MSRP? To say, oh well, what's another 15% to buy from us, "that's nothing" - but that 10-15% discount has saved me over $1500 over the past three years. So as a business do you want my patronage and if so how are you going to get it? If that's not your model and you can keep your doors open with MSRP that's great for you and your local customers but for me I'd be paying more to get the same. (Oh, and I do have a preference for one online store in particular because they have better stock, more stock, offer better prices on used mini's and do offer things for online buyers like me (loyalty, etc.) so I don't mind paying them a bit more and don't just buy the model from whomever offers it for the least).
If i can buy from the place i play my games at i will, usually i play bolt action at a shop 1 hour from my house so i buy there. When i played Legion i was playing at a different shop and bought my models there despite the further shop being cheaper.
I stopped buying from the local GW when they stopped having gaming tables because i had no reason to go there anymore.
Buy where you play, keep those places open.
Value is relative. I feel bad about paying MSRP for any regular 40K unit because they do get included in the "value boxes" so as consumer you know they could be priced less. You can also look at other games-workshop miniature games and see that there's a premium included in the price of 40K miniatures compared to other games. And since this is a hobby, you know if you put your own time and effort you can make a cool looking miniature giving you that value without paying the MSRP for it. Then there's also plenty of other companies making high quality plastic kits, bandai and tamiya provide a lot more value upfront at a lower MSRP without that extra premium attached because you might play a tabletop wargame with them in the future.
But what I'm really arguing here isn't that nobody should charge games-workshop MSRP, but why I shouldn't impulsively purchase something at MSRP because as you mentioned in the video I might not even need it. I'm perfectly happy to buy their single limited miniature, that isn't at all limited, for $50 because it's cool. So at least for me it's not about deal hunting but it only being another reason to avoid an impulse purchase that I might end up regretting.
Currency is a current. If a product sits on shelf, regardless of product and price, it causes stagnation and anaerobic. Healthy rivers are oxygenated and have plenty of diversity in species.
The spice must flow.
If any product has sat on shelf or peg for too long they find themselves on sale or clearance and it's often far after the product should have sold.
I had a LGS and the guy running it never got anything in I asked for. People were playing warcry and necromunda in his store but her never stocked them instead he would stock 40k and heresy and kill team, I would ask him to get me paints and tamia glue and he didn't even know what tamia glue was... Guess what happened?
There's a store near me that charges a bit above MSRP, run your business the way you think is best for it, and don't worry.
If you get a product less than MSRP, you should go to your local hobby store and pay him the difference in cash
That makes total sense.... I do that with my wife.
I don't buy at the Warhammer store period and I won't pay full MSRP on web orders (including Amazon or Ebay). I'll only pay full MSRP at my local hobby store, which provides a place to play & meet (14 gaming tables & terrain to use).
I'm less concerned about rare models when my most basic and cheapest point cost troops that I need a lot of cost $60 for 10 of them in an army that needs 40+ miniatures. I can respect that stores need to make a profit and I have even told my FLGS that I will always check with them first for any sale, if they can't get it or order it them I'll go online. But when half the stuff I want is webstore exclusive then secondary market is the only option sometimes.
Don't forget customer service. Have you ever had a problem with your Gmail? It's a nightmare because there isnt anyone to talk to.
A good hobby store can actually save you money..if you listen to them.
As hobbyists how many dead ends have we impulse bought? This is made worse when buying is just one click.
I've paid full MSRP for a lot of Warhammer, including both Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero and a good chunk of my Necromunda books, and much more. I've also purchased online, on Amazon, and for a while was grabbing tons of used lots of Orks on eBay. I don't mind paying full price, but I also at this point in my life manage to get to the flgs for an actual game maybe three to four times a year, so I also don't feel guilty taking advantage of online pricing. I've now moved states, but my previous flgs was one of the biggest game stores in the Southeast and I've seen online how quickly they move GW product on launch day.
I'm part of the Lords of war games and hobbies+20% movement.
Personally I think that is mostly GWs fault, couple of price increases per year is what makes people go "gotta shop for bargains". I think that is mostly psychology driven and not based in an actual need to shop at -15% (most of the time).
Great Videos. The LGS near me is actually a local family owned art supply store they do not offer any discounts. I support them even though there are GW stores within 20 minutes of me.
I don't think buying MSRP is stupid especially if it is from a store you like. I buy most of my new warhammer for MSRP but I also buy quite a bit used and kitbash my Orks so I end up spending less money anyway. But I also don't think it is stupid wanting to pay less especially for kits that are expensive that you likely want multiple off like Ad Mech Dragoons/Ironstriders. In that case I fully support looking for a discount.
Great thoughts. I love hearing the business end of things and the opinions and points you both bring up in these videos are well thought out. They bring good insight into a hobby many of us love. Thanks for sharing!
A good game store is priceless so I will always buy something even if it’s just a bottle of paint or a reaper mini. However there’s a lot of crappy game stores out there that are the epitome of gamer stereotypes. I had a local game store that was basically a couple guys running a game room disguised as a store lol. They weren’t interested in you as a customer unless you were buying $50-$100 in GW or MTG. Guess what? They just closed their doors permanently. I think we in this hobby have toxic players and toxic shops and toxic companies. When you have good players, good shops, and good companies that’s where the magic happens and people are willing to pay for that.
A hard no from me. But, since I live in the Netherlands it would be hard not to. Most, if not all, LGSs here offer a discount (ranging from 10% to 20%). And since they almost all got websites, they sell online. Given the size of my country It'd be hard for an LGS to compete in the (online) scene if they didn't offer a discount. These aren't huge stores either. All of them are just local shops who have an online webstore.
I will pay MSRP for hobby supplies and items less than $50 USD. Getting just a 15% off on an entire army can mean getting an entire unit for no cost
There are 3 different local stores here and I buy nothing but paint from them. I’m not paying MSRP. But I don’t play or really do anything but buy paint at the stores. If I used the stores for other things I would pay more.
Very reasonable.
We don’t have a lgs that does regular discounts. I do sometimes make big ticket purchases on eBay at a discount. I try to spread my spending to different locations.
Most of the LGS around here don’t stock much if any Old World so I usually buy direct from GW for things that sell out fast or online if it’s a great deal on a battalion box or something
Stores should never sell products less than MSRP, to protect the customers who paid the MSRP
For anything but paints?
Noooooo
Fu*k no.
Though, no shame if you do, your money, your labour, you waste it how you want.
Yes. Yes you are . Of course sometimes you have no other option. Store can't order nexus cards, but you need them play this seson? Tough luck. A kid who can't order stuff online ? Well local GW it is. GW decided that in your region the product be hard to impossible to get? Tough luck again.
I’m part of the MSRP + 20% movement
Do you..also own a shop lol
I can say with certainty that I would have a far smaller pile of shame if I had to buy everything direct from GW. I know I'm a sucker for something that looks like a "good deal"...
I figured there would be another video about this after that last one. I buy from my lgs when they have what I want in stock, or offer easy way to pre-order. I prefer if they have the standard 15%, but I don't make a big deal about it if they don't. I will normally attempt to get big boxes($200+) for the discount though.
I’m part of the Moro+20% movement
There are three different groups with differing priorities.
1. Share holders.
2. Company (GW).
3.. Customer.
They don't have the same priorities. e.g. when I was trying to collect a wood elf army in the 90s was basically impossible, as a teenager. I barely had enough to build a 500 point army.
The shareholders simply don't care about this. GW is in the middle, trying to please the customer, whilst maintaining "value" for shareholders.
My view come from poor people trying to do what they enjoy.
I don't think everything that GW makes is expensive. The latest blood bowl box set is a good value. Although it does seem expensive. Even GW barebones extra teams are reasonable value. If you buy after market teams and pitch etc, you'll probably spend more. The issue is trying to buy a full team. GW does forget it's customers, sometimes.
I'm personally, happy to buy from local shops. I also like supporting other talented sculptors, like greebo-games etc. I have stopped buying from stores like amazon.
I wish people were more understanding of other peoples personal situations. Health and financial. Treat people the same.
I rarely pay msrp for GW stuff, but then I am in the UK where, I honestly can't think of any lgs here that doesn't offer at least 10% off, I'm lucky in that my local one offers 20% off (maybe the max discount varies by region?), I only pay msrp for stuff that GW dosen't offer to 3rd party stores, the online only stuff and Forgeworld mainly. Though I do also try to avoid offical GW stores just because of how the staff is all over you (yes I know that's what they are told to do).
It's good like you mentioned that GW doesn't allow a run on their products, if a product is dirt cheap, then you'll have a very hard time convincing customers to ever pay more (I don't think I've paid full price for a video game in years now) or even buy it at all, it's gets into the "why is this so cheap compared to everything else? It must be a bad product", there's a logic to pricing things a premium price (see any Apple product ever), it's a bit of a physiological trick that premium price must equal premium product.
I'm in the UK. Near me there's four main stores. There was a FLGS that didn't offer any discount or gaming space, and they just didn't sell any GW product. They ended up selling off their entire GW stock on clearance and increased their historical and model railway ranges instead. They do okay and they're still going, with a much older customer base.
Then there's a store with some gaming space that offers max discounts and they're doing great, especially online - they've employed extra people just to keep up with their online sales. They're looking for a bigger location now, but don't really want to leave the shopping centre they're in - it's Local Council owned and they get really competitive rent prices there. They always have people in store.
And then there's a FLGS with two floors of just gaming tables, and a shop floor. They're at the end of a smaller high street away from the main city centre but still easy to get to. They run tonnes of free events (including things like D&D Adventurer's League even), sell drinks/snacks, open really late and take money deposits to book tables in advance which they'll fill with terrain for whatever game you want to play and charge £5 per table on the weekends. They don't discount products as heavily, but are thriving because of the community they're building and the amount of people they get in the door.
Lastly we've got our Warhammer store.
It's four different types of offering all running a successful business in their own way.
@@waaaghzag For sure there's space for multiple styles of store if they are managed well. Going to be harder to get people in the door though without a discount. Especially these days where you can easily get this stuff online. But as you said and in the video - offering things other than just low prices will keep your customers loyal and coming back even without the lowest possible prices.
Great content guys, love the spicier content! Keep doing it!
GW factor into thier price the discount stores give and price more to thier profit margin, v what seller can get away with.
At a gw meeting many decades ago it was mentioned the printed card of the box costed more than the plastic minis raw material cost.
@@EvilBearSkirmish Exactly so the endless increasing of prices makes very little sense. The profit margins of their minis is INSANE already. Sadly being publicly traded they just want ALL of the money. Being profitable each year just simply isn't ever enough.
@@EvilBearSkirmish Yeah but it's not about the raw materials, making a mold to print a plastic mini costs a lot more than a machine to crank out cardboard. The biggest problem for most people like me is that a big chunk of the GW miniatures price is to make share holders happy - but hey, nobody is forcing you to buy their models, they aren't selling water or air necessary for life.
@@IrulianDark very much so, look at how much the boss takes, thats not money from his labour, same with share holders, short term its great for the sgare holders, but the keep chasing more profit they will start loosing the community more and more.
we understand they need to pay staff, and we understand they have bills, but when the top guy and shareholders suck the life financialy and artisticly from the company its not a great feeling as a consumer.
In Montreal, the only store that doesn’t discount is the Warhammer store, ironically. Also, resale on miniatures is not great. At least it’s not an argument for GW’s high prices. One major recession and nobody will buy this stuff except for the rich, like me I suppose.
My lgs has monthly membership to get discount. I more pay it to keep the store open though only play maybe 2 or 3 times a year there. My pile of shame is more I feel bad if I don't buy stuff from them once in a while. Though I don't really have time to hobby but someday maybe.
Love the alternative view point. Appreciate the channel!
I am glad you enjoyed it!
This one is a bit of an odd one, but it is a continuation of the last one. Unless it was only available exclusively from GW, I wouldn't buy from them, but I don't see them adding value to my hobby. Recruitment also serves them, and increasingly, I feel they aren't the great ambassadors for the wider hobby they used to be. Then again, I have tried supporting local stores over online discounters, and I don't see GW as essentially any different. Sometimes the discount shifts it over the tipping point though
You touched on the wider point of value in the hobby space, which is entirely subjective, what I am willing to pay is probably a lot less than what others are willing to pay for some products and visa versa. That is a really complex mix of how I will derive enjoyment from that particular product, what my current hobby focus is and how that fits with the product. Skaventide is heavily discounted in a lot of places currently, but those discounts aren't making it an attractive proposition to me. Shatterpoint came out and while I could see the value in the box abstractly I had no room for it in my current hobby. It lingers as a maybe but honestly it isn't getting on the paint table in at least the next year so it can stay on the shelf.
As to hobby backlogs, currently on my third purge, and in all truth I am expecting 600 minis to be gone by the time I am done, mainly the legacy of old discounts and GW being a second job to one that paid much better. That still funds new projects nearly 20 years later.
I think alot of the hesistation to paying MSRP is that there are never sales, and GW is always hiking the price. My shop only sells new and the only competition is the GW shop so there isn't any incentive to be lower. I go to the local for new releases and ordering models because I want to keep them going but it's not really possible to get everything from them. Sometimes you just want to catch a break since even used eBay prices are close to MSRP.
"You could have a better paying job" 😂😅
So you consume the hobby without supporting any game store
Would be interesting to know how retailers feel about bundled boxsets, which GW discounts much more heavily than retailers are allowed to discount models and in a way it is the retailers that feel the pinch (less purchases in their store, less profit on same amount of models sold AND more shelf space taken. Also do retailers wish they could offer bigger discounts with loyalty reward schemes? Those often seem very limited and certainly are never generous enough to justify paying full rrp over discounted rrp.
The bundle boxes are great in small doses. Certain ones can be slam dunk releases that sell quickly. Other ones can sit for months or years. Generally its not too bad and they almost always eventually sell through. The key for us is to just not over order them.
Im interested to know where you fellas are located, and if thats maybe a factor at all? In my little corner of Ohio, none of our shops sell at MSRP, and I think the fact that they all know that one another offer the standard 15% discount kinda deters one another.
i like these talking head video's, it's from a perspective that I haven't seen before. Talking about not having seen things before. Can you guys show your store a bit more? What shelf space are you running since you talk about walls being prime real estate. Could you show examples of what you are talking about? Not sure if taht is an option or if that would be to much 'peek in the kitchen'-vibes then?
Short answer yes unless you’re supporting a flgs, then I say support where you play. If you aren’t playing at a lgs yes you are stupid for paying msrp imo of course.
There are more reasons than gaming to support your local store. Maybe they are great for advice on painting or hobbying.
Maybe you get on well with the people and value personal relationships. Maybe you like knowing that when that hard to get thing comes around you can ask the lads to make sure you get one.
Just a thought, obvs not for everyone.
Cheers!
More train ! Rage !
Two men who buy their Warhammer for 50%+ off tell me to pay MSRP 😂
In all seriousness - I don’t mins buying at MSRP but the way I see it I buy a lot more stuff at discount that it probably adds up to more value for my local store.
Anyone buying warhammer at these prices is cracked
I’m looking at a Dominion box right this minute that I bought because the store was almost giving it away. ($115.00, iirc still during 3rd ed) What’s my point? My point is that I’m looking at this unopened box... again UNOPENED. Sometimes maybe you’re better off not chasing bargains that just turn into stuff you’ll never use.
A great point. Happens to all of us
Again - I appreciate you both educating the market. My impression is that you both deliver so much value to your community that the discount more than pays for itself.
We do our best and i guess that's all we can do!
How dare you use reason and logic in ensuring a valuable gaming community space remains viable. You absolute monsters!!
Literal daemons
I’m not a store owner, but one thing that I really dislike is when people use the store like a show room. Going into the store so they can get a hands-on look at the product and then looking online (sometimes on their phone, while they’re still standing in the aisles), for the cheapest price. It’s one thing if it’s a “used” item, I guess, and you give the shop owner a chance to meet the price. But doing that with current production items is pretty crappy.
The annoying thing of this video is that you throw shade at the discount place while saying you are taking the high road. In actuality, both kinds of stores do what they think is good business. You don’t scalp your in-demand products on eBay because it’s wrong or mean. You don’t because it’s bad for your business. You keep steady prices, not for nobility of purpose, but because it’s good for your business. You don’t advertise to your costumers that you paint and build at wholesale prices, because it’s good for your business. In the end everyone, the customers and the businesses, can do what they want with their money and what they buy with their money.
Not sure we are 'throwing shade' but more trying to explain our choices, which are of course biased. Read into it what you will :)
I don't agree with the point of "why do want so many miniatures anyway? If you cannot afford a lot of miniatures you'll have a better hobby experience!" I think it's condescending. But I agree that a race to the bottom is not good for stores or buyers, and in the past that caused a lot of problems.
I think you are twisting our words a little bit there. We were simply stating (based on our experience) that getting more toys isn't always actually better for your experience. Everyone with a haunting grey pile of unused shame can relate to this.
BS. no one even pays half for used warhammer. MSRP has no control over how high something can go because theres no telling when it will come back into stock. what if a game dies. good luck.
Okay 😀
No
why should anyone buy GW at alll?!?
way over priced fomo!
trying to appeal to cheap people isn't the fool proof plan that folks seem to think it is. if people are loyal on everything you do, except price, they'll keep coming back. If you are running an LGS pawn shop and literally only trying to compete on price; you're going to always lose to places that offer better value besides just the price. Basically, cheap people have no loyalty; why would you want to cater your business to them? Your business should be a whole foods, not a 99 cents store.
99 cent stores are exceedingly successful.
I think also (maybe ill be proven wrong one day), I don't know if you can get a model kit like warhammer to sell at such volume to make it work as a '99cent store' commodity.
@@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 401 Games. Imaginaire. MeepleMart. That dude who sells out of his garage (I forget his store's name).
A lot of them show their stock level on their website and you'll see them regularly blow through dozens or hundreds of kits.
Obviously they sell board games, cards, Funko, etc., but they make enough on miniatures to keep carrying them and even expand (401 now stocks Malifaux, for example).
So with the right set-up, you definitely can sell hobby stuff for volume. Though naturally those aren't really FLGS's, except that MeepleMart is testing the waters with a play space again after the community robbed him blind the last couple of times he attempted it.
First off I think you’re absolutely right competing on Pryce is a fool errand because there will always be someplace that will make long-term decisions that let them compete at a lower price point in the short term and they won’t be around next year, but if you want to you can’t do that
I also think it’s interesting to point out that generally dollar stores for a large number of things they sell or not actually cheaper if you were to look at a a cost per unit price for example sure you might be able to buy a bar of soap for $1.25 but if you go to more traditional retailer, they might not sell a single bar of soap, but you can buy a 10 pack for $10 or something to that effect yes you’re spending less money at that moment but it’s generally because you have less money to spend, and therefore have to take the worst deal at the end of the day
Pay MSRP for Warhammer?
I don't even like paying the 15% off FLGS prices for Warhammer.
I prefer to cruise FB marketplace for used kits and joblots.
Because GW is trying to scree us, so screw them first.
Well many people make a living off selling GW that aren't actually GW...
But to each their own mate!
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Make no mistake. I love my local hobby store. I buy paints, flocking, x-acto blades, other model kits (tamiya, bandai, etc.) from them. They sell trains, plains, and all manner of games, but giving GW money directly is consent to their anti-consumer behaviors (fomo, constant price hikes, and shrinkfation).
So yes, support your local store, but say no to GW's many abuses.
So what if I know more than the store owner and have a table and people to play with at home? What extra value are you offering me so that I choose your store over any other?
there is no way you know more then Chris and Jay :D
but seriously, thanks for the comment :)
@lordsofwargamesandhobbies3905 Jesus if that's how you talk to the people who come to your store. No wonder you have a volume of sales problem.
You sound like the type of guys who used to look down on women coming into hobby shops and assume they're there for the man in their life.
It's very beneficial to me that there is a hobby shop building a community for the games I care about. Gives me more people to play with. That has added value even if I have access to a good gaming space at home and know more about my favourite game than the store owner(s).
Why should I pay for my Warhammer?
@@rddragon5Look, if you only paint and play at home, you don't get value from a store like this, and that's totally okay. In that case you'll also shop around for the best prices online because the value for you personally is in the pricing, digital experience, delivery and customer service on offer. That's also okay and the added value for you is in those things offered by a different retailer instead.
I’m part of the MSRP +20% movement