I Love the Video Bruce! Keep up the tinkering, we can all learn from it! I had more problems with “High Output” and MSD in-cap coils layer shorting and overheating with an MSD 6AL-2 programmable. Finally threw in a stock GM coil and been solid for years:)
Many times people have coil failure or spark degradation because they didn’t install the Ground strap inside the cap when installing the coil. 🤔 If you’re asking what the ground strap is, then this is a very good tip. JD
Great point...yeah, I should have really opened the gap as wide as possible. I have things I want to try...just haven't had a whole lot of time lately. Thanks for posting.
Great video. From my experience of coil inside cap I haven't found a large improvement from running pertronix and other high-end Chinese knockoff. NGK is my go-to source for $30. Thanks for posting
Cool setup. How about testing different coils with different spark plug gaps? 0.030 vs 0.060? Measuring output voltage would also be interesting - at the coil and at the plug - and heat developed at the plug by each system.
One of the things I really wanted to do is find a way to test output voltage between coils and at the plug but so far I have not figured out how to do that. A neighbor brought over an oscilloscope for me to try but it didn't really show what I wanted it to. I can visually see a difference in spark between certain coils and resistor versus non-resister spark plugs but it doesn't come across very well on video. As far as gap is concerned, I did test that years ago in my race car. My car is very consistent so over the course of a full racing season I tested a few things. I tested NGK racing plugs vs Autolite racing plugs, standard reach vs extended reach, 2 different heat ranges, indexing plugs and finally I ran 2 different gaps .030 & .045. Results - after testing everything the only thing that made any difference at all was the engine ran a little better with a tight plug gap and I ended up leaving them at .035. By the way, indexing spark plugs did absolutely nothing - in my case. In all, I ended up trying 22 sets of spark plugs and yes, it was a little bit expensive, LOL. Anyway, thanks for your input and I am still going to look for an easy way to test coil output at the plug. I think it will be a very interesting experiment.
I have an oscilloscope so that should show us something. Something I've always wondered...is there really a difference in similar looking coils. So, for instance, a stock coil versus one that says high output...I know it has to do with the number of turns in the winding but how easy is it for some offshore manufacturer to just stamp a batch "high output"...Something else that is really cool is the difference in spark when using a stock spark plug (resistor) versus a racing plug without a resistor. You can physically see a difference there but I need to find a way to show the spark energy output between both of those. I will be doing a video on spark plugs soon.
You need a high voltage hi capacity capacitor and an accurate count of sparks and resultant voltage to measure the stored Joules...An oscilloscope can do it but you still have to integrate the delivered pulse volt-amps....
Hey I’m a 17 year old trying to fix my 1990 f150 it has a 502 out of an early 80s fox body so it’s carbureted but somehow the distributor is in the front and the cap and stem I think you call it looks like one of those msd ones it’s red that’s all I know but the coil some odd reason keeps getting so hot it doesn’t give enough spark and I don’t know what to I keep replacing them but doesn’t change nothing have all the wires connected properly the ground strap is good it’s just keeps losing power when it’s hot like the truck just shuts off and leaves me road stranded everyday but if I let it cool down it will start just fine I just need some help please
I'm fairly certain you mean that you have a 302 engine. That was very common for both of those vehicles in that time period and the distributor in the front of the engine is exactly where it should be. A couple of thoughts...you said the coil gets hot and the vehicle shuts down. Coils will naturally get hot. Having a coil fail isn't as common as you might think so if you have already replaced it and still have a stalling problem, I would look elsewhere for the problem. Also, make sure you are running the factory coil or a stock replacement...don't get all caught up in the next best thing and buy some aftermarket unit...they are all made in china anyway. When the engine dies, does it immediately shut down or does it slowly lose power? If the engine shuts off immediately then it will be ignition related...if it slowly loses power then most likely it will be a fuel issue. You need to check for spark as soon as it dies...that is easier than checking for fuel when you are by yourself. You might want to check or replace the EEC relay (Electronic Engine Control) if it has one...I have not worked on one of those for quite some time but relays do fail and are easily overlooked. To check the fuel pressure, you just hook up a mechanical gauge, disable the ignition and crank the engine. You should have 5-6 psi....3 psi and less the engine will not run. 3.5-4 psi is barely sufficient and the engine might struggle under a load. Check the oil dipstick and see if you can smell fuel...that is also a sign of a bad fuel pump...very common on those. The distributor used in that year just has a magnetic pickup so that could also be causing your issue. The wires get brittle and will break. As I recall there should be a Blue Grommit Control Module on the fender...that could also be the problem. You can test the resistance (ohms) of the magnetic pickup and see if it is in spec...google the specs...and replace if necessary. There is no test for the control module, again, as I recall. Hopefully, this helps.
@@BruceCoggins thank you so much It doesn’t randomly shut off it just Boggs down then dies I’ll check my fuel pressure it just put a new billet holly one on and I’ll adjust that if it needs and check that and I’ll let you know thank you so much
Need to have the spark plug pressurized to about 150 psi for any meaningful test....Those sparks you have shown are pretty wimpy....I would have expected much better from the hei system..... ;^(
Yes, they do have a lot of resistance. These wires are over 20 years old and were just taking up space so I decided to put them to use. For the race car, I use Moroso Ultra 40....I've also had the MSD 8.5 Super Conductor wires ...both are very good spark plug wires.
I Love the Video Bruce! Keep up the tinkering, we can all learn from it! I had more problems with “High Output” and MSD in-cap coils layer shorting and overheating with an MSD 6AL-2 programmable. Finally threw in a stock GM coil and been solid for years:)
Many times people have coil failure or spark degradation because they didn’t install the Ground strap inside the cap when installing the coil. 🤔
If you’re asking what the ground strap is, then this is a very good tip. JD
Thanks for the video. Pity you didn't use some 60 thou plugs.
Great point...yeah, I should have really opened the gap as wide as possible. I have things I want to try...just haven't had a whole lot of time lately. Thanks for posting.
This guy's got a nice test rig.
Have you ever done aluminum vs. brass terminal caps?
No, I have not. That might be interesting... I'll put it on my list of things to try. Thank you for that idea.
Great video. From my experience of coil inside cap I haven't found a large improvement from running pertronix and other high-end Chinese knockoff. NGK is my go-to source for $30. Thanks for posting
Seams like the spring on the rotor button, is very thin and small, may be the choke point of energy to plugs?
Cool test lab run... I'm 500th subscriber!
LOL, yes you are...thank you for subscribing.
Cool setup. How about testing different coils with different spark plug gaps? 0.030 vs 0.060? Measuring output voltage would also be interesting - at the coil and at the plug - and heat developed at the plug by each system.
One of the things I really wanted to do is find a way to test output voltage between coils and at the plug but so far I have not figured out how to do that. A neighbor brought over an oscilloscope for me to try but it didn't really show what I wanted it to. I can visually see a difference in spark between certain coils and resistor versus non-resister spark plugs but it doesn't come across very well on video.
As far as gap is concerned, I did test that years ago in my race car. My car is very consistent so over the course of a full racing season I tested a few things. I tested NGK racing plugs vs Autolite racing plugs, standard reach vs extended reach, 2 different heat ranges, indexing plugs and finally I ran 2 different gaps .030 & .045. Results - after testing everything the only thing that made any difference at all was the engine ran a little better with a tight plug gap and I ended up leaving them at .035. By the way, indexing spark plugs did absolutely nothing - in my case. In all, I ended up trying 22 sets of spark plugs and yes, it was a little bit expensive, LOL.
Anyway, thanks for your input and I am still going to look for an easy way to test coil output at the plug. I think it will be a very interesting experiment.
Make a high pressure tube and put the spark plugs in it. Ramp up the pressure and rpms. And watch the spark on your scope and in the cap.
Have you figured out a way to measure spark energy? Possibly indirectly by measuring avg primary current and steady rpm?
I have an oscilloscope so that should show us something. Something I've always wondered...is there really a difference in similar looking coils. So, for instance, a stock coil versus one that says high output...I know it has to do with the number of turns in the winding but how easy is it for some offshore manufacturer to just stamp a batch "high output"...Something else that is really cool is the difference in spark when using a stock spark plug (resistor) versus a racing plug without a resistor. You can physically see a difference there but I need to find a way to show the spark energy output between both of those. I will be doing a video on spark plugs soon.
You need a high voltage hi capacity capacitor and an accurate count of sparks and resultant voltage to measure the stored Joules...An oscilloscope can do it but you still have to integrate the delivered pulse volt-amps....
Hey I’m a 17 year old trying to fix my 1990 f150 it has a 502 out of an early 80s fox body so it’s carbureted but somehow the distributor is in the front and the cap and stem I think you call it looks like one of those msd ones it’s red that’s all I know but the coil some odd reason keeps getting so hot it doesn’t give enough spark and I don’t know what to I keep replacing them but doesn’t change nothing have all the wires connected properly the ground strap is good it’s just keeps losing power when it’s hot like the truck just shuts off and leaves me road stranded everyday but if I let it cool down it will start just fine I just need some help please
I'm fairly certain you mean that you have a 302 engine. That was very common for both of those vehicles in that time period and the distributor in the front of the engine is exactly where it should be.
A couple of thoughts...you said the coil gets hot and the vehicle shuts down. Coils will naturally get hot. Having a coil fail isn't as common as you might think so if you have already replaced it and still have a stalling problem, I would look elsewhere for the problem. Also, make sure you are running the factory coil or a stock replacement...don't get all caught up in the next best thing and buy some aftermarket unit...they are all made in china anyway.
When the engine dies, does it immediately shut down or does it slowly lose power? If the engine shuts off immediately then it will be ignition related...if it slowly loses power then most likely it will be a fuel issue. You need to check for spark as soon as it dies...that is easier than checking for fuel when you are by yourself. You might want to check or replace the EEC relay (Electronic Engine Control) if it has one...I have not worked on one of those for quite some time but relays do fail and are easily overlooked.
To check the fuel pressure, you just hook up a mechanical gauge, disable the ignition and crank the engine. You should have 5-6 psi....3 psi and less the engine will not run. 3.5-4 psi is barely sufficient and the engine might struggle under a load. Check the oil dipstick and see if you can smell fuel...that is also a sign of a bad fuel pump...very common on those.
The distributor used in that year just has a magnetic pickup so that could also be causing your issue. The wires get brittle and will break. As I recall there should be a Blue Grommit Control Module on the fender...that could also be the problem. You can test the resistance (ohms) of the magnetic pickup and see if it is in spec...google the specs...and replace if necessary. There is no test for the control module, again, as I recall.
Hopefully, this helps.
@@BruceCoggins thank you so much It doesn’t randomly shut off it just Boggs down then dies I’ll check my fuel pressure it just put a new billet holly one on and I’ll adjust that if it needs and check that and I’ll let you know thank you so much
Good job right on
Need to have the spark plug pressurized to about 150 psi for any meaningful test....Those sparks you have shown are pretty wimpy....I would have expected much better from the hei system..... ;^(
A friend recently told me that the accel wires have a high resistance than other brands. And the least resistance is better for components.
Yes, they do have a lot of resistance. These wires are over 20 years old and were just taking up space so I decided to put them to use. For the race car, I use Moroso Ultra 40....I've also had the MSD 8.5 Super Conductor wires ...both are very good spark plug wires.