The Safe-Tec Duck-R back up device is a pretty common secondary back up device I see used. Maybe a video showing this one and how it works would be good. Great channel by the way, can’t wait to see what other videos you got coming.
Thank you 🙏🏻. I totally agree, that would be a good device to dive into! In my neck of the woods not so common though. I’ll see if I can get my hands on one👍🏼👍🏼
Thanks a lot. Your comments are great addition or, better to say, completion to some IRATA courses/instructors. A "paper" is not all we want from course, but not all instructors give you their real experience/love for this work. So with friends we re-train under your instructions. If you could explain your opinion about "rocker" style devices, this "lesson" will be more than complete
Thank you for sharing. These types of comments really make this worth while🙏🏻🙏🏻 I have so many videos to film, including on backups. I just don’t have the time haha. I climbed with the Singing Rock Locker for a year. I liked it, but especially on long drops the fact that and ASAP or tow cord operated backups work easier. But I have definitely not tried all the devices out there. Can Goblin for instance seems good too. Do you know that? And what is your backup of choice?
I believe. Many topics, questions, all you'd like to share and of course videos are only "hobby addition" to your real work and courses you provide in real world. And of course haven't tried all devices which is impossible and irrational. I have used Shunt before, which was not as bad if you are ultra careful to never touch devices's body and don't need to descend (change work place) much. With Prusik hitch somewhat below on a backup rope. Which was effect of collecting good practice from other guys, at jobs where IRATA or any other course wasn't required, but safety is still your basic personal requirement. But a) not safe at all and b) not for IRATA (forgotten for a) reason). "Of choice, of course" - ASAP, which is just an industry standard, for many reasons. For a while, still not my own piece. Which is my goal - to have every piece of gear trusty, known from first second of use. ASAP is almost "install and forget, even if you're tired". But I search for some reasonable backup for really dirty works where ASAP can be a bit too delicate and vulnerable of getting some pollution inside mechanism. Like concrete repair (grinding, tons of concrete dust flying around, then resin injections) or steel works (tons of steel and grinding dust). Thanks for tip - goblin looks interesting, as device's body doesn't act as a lever in first moment. I still search.
@@c64club I learned to climb with a Stop and a Shunt haha. Worked like a dream especially in very dirty environments. But as products developed and got safer we moved to better option. A Shunt is a rope grab and therefore not a backup. That's why according to IRATA you can't use it. (Well you can as with any rope grab, but in a very limited use) If the Shunt works for you in your environment, maybe you like the Safetec DuckR www.industrieelklimmen.nl/product/safetec-duck-r-backup/. I bought one a few months ago and really like it as a second backup. It operates similarly as a Shunt and has CE EN 12841:2006 A so it is a backup and can be used for a rescue load in a pinch. But definitely RTFM on that on. I had a look at what backups I own and tried out. This was all around 2010 so updated versions might work better now. I could not get used to the ASAP (introduced to me around 2006/8 so after a few years I decided to find something better suited for me. Singing Rock Locker. Okay but too much hassle, especially on the descent. Kong Backup. Same conclusion as the Locker. It has to be at ff2 for it to slide down automatically. I did not like that ISC Red. worked better than the previous two. But there was something with tight lines and that it might not engage and the tow cord.. I think they improved it later with the tow cord release mechanism. So in the end I came back to the ASAP. The install and forget aspect and the fact the you can literally hold and it will still engage make it a clear winner in my books I understand that some work environments wear out gear faster and that is just the cost of doing business right. I prefer the best gear out there and if it is a dirty job, then the prize goes up to cover those expenses. Oh yeah! The Heightec Quadra or Quantum. Tried it 5 or 6 years ago. Can't remember exactly. To be honest, for my use.. It was the worst of all I mentioned.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Thanks for suggestions about wear. If work in dust is only a matter of faster wear, I don't mind. Buying one ASAP per year is not losing a fortune. Four-five workdays and you have $$ for new one. Just affraid if such precise device could operate properly in really dusty env, that's why I search for something less prone to cancel its function when dusted. If ASAP can work in dust, then all my "research" is unneeded. If Petzl just made some dust-covers for ASAP... I would buy them in 6packs, haha. Install, install cover and forget. Something like spatter-covers for ropes when welding. I have few kevlar ones. No worry about rope if installed properly.
@@c64club trademark it and make ASAP covers 😜😜 I have never encountered an asap that did not lock. Older and dirtier ones just seem to stop quicker. The wheel spins less free. If anyone reading this has heard of an asap not locking please do share.
Another great video! Good to see you mention the wind factor and what I call the bubble of trouble when using the ASAP. Many do not see this as a concern but it should be. A comment below mentions the shunt. Before the shunt people used a jumar with a energy absorbing lanyard and I still do. This way my hand is always on the backup device so I am aware what is going on with it and the rope. I can also attach and remove it one handed and best of all, I can descend way faster.
Thanks 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 Depending on your industry, the jumar as a backup would not be allowed. Its a rope clamp and not a backup device. I know the certification allows for a slight dynamic load at FF1 (140kg I think..) But still it is not designed for it. If you forget and end up at FF2 things could get scary. Something like a DuckR or ISC Red would work better I think?? You can tow those on the descend and the DuckR is rated for rescue as well. Question for you. How do you descend with a jumar as a backup?
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Right hand operates the descender. Left hand holds jumar with thumb holding the clamp/cam back (not open) and the tail from the descender running between the jumar and my left palm. Anything goes wrong to cause my thumb to slip of the jumar and it all locks up. I use a SRT stop descender and a SRT jumar. IRATA guys hate it but IT IS LEGAL and I feel it is better for the reasons stated above. Faster so clearing hazards is easier and safer, I can descend a 10 storey building and only touch it a couple of times and also being able to attach it and remove it easily with one hand I think is a huge plus because being easy to use means it is used. I personally hate the ASAP, how it locks up should I descend too fast for it. I find it dangerous though it is what most use where I am. The shunt, DuckR and ISC Red all require two hands to attach and remove and I see many people get a little... lazy with their use when working near edges because of it also where I am FF2 falls are not allowed and should never happen. Also jumar is attached to the harness by an energy absorbing lanyard without any additional lanyards/sling so the who system is short. It is not a trip hazard and this shortens the fall before things kick in compared to other systems I have seen used. It is not lead down before thr user or dragged behind the user but held in front of the user.
Thank you for painting the picture. I'm not saying anything about the legality of things according to laws. I work mainly for IRATA companies and the way you use it is outside of the ICOP and not according to manufacturers specs. I do not doubt that your system works for you. However where I live you would have a hard time explaining your choices in court if the SHTF. Especially if some HSE book wurm starts mentioning device that are rated as backups and you were not using those. The fact that the asap locks at a certain speed is in my opinion an advantage. We do not need speed in industrial rope access. Increasing speed usually means decreasing control and safety. Slow and controlled is the way to go. Especially when working around inexperienced techs. They do not need to start copying experienced people who are able to stay in control. I've seen it happen in the Stop/Shunt days. Needing two hands to put on a device is not a bad thing. Lock your descender and take your time. FF2 should never happen as is getting lazy at the edge. Both do happen so it is beneficial to have a system that is capable of handling that. And having that should not mean you can get lazy! Like I said, I do not doubt you have a perfect working system for you. Reading your comments I gather you must have decades of experience and you know what you are doing. And if your work environment allows you to operate the way you do, have at it. I just think there are better/safer options. And that is part of the beauty of our industry. Multiple ways to room and such. We do not have to agree on everything. To each his own I look forward to reading more of your comments! Have a good one👊🏻
@@TheRopeAccessChannel This from you shows a great attitude. "And that is part of the beauty of our industry. Multiple ways to room and such. We do not have to agree on everything." It is a shame that discussing the intricacies via text can be difficult as I think you would be a great person to have a yarn with.
Hello Alex, I'm really looking forward to the upcoming videos. My hobby has been sport and industrial climbing with geocaching for 2 years. I'm thinking of doing level 1 and 2. What has to be replaced in a system if you fall into the security system (ASAP)? Just the energy absorber and the rope? Or all things that got the fall energy? Thank you and keep it up.
That’s great to hear! Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻 If do get your Level 1 then it will take you at least a year and 1000 hours on rope signed of by an L3. So that second step is not so easy. In case of a shock load it is advised to scrap everything that was loaded in the system.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Thanks for the answer. That sounds hard, replacing everything. But rather a new belt, new ASAP and rope, because life is worth more than these, for example 700 euros. I figured the ASAP would be strong enough to withstand at least one more fall. Some use the SHUNT as a backup, what do you think of that? I use ASAP and secondly the GOBLIN from CAMP.
@@technoheld1989 the severity of the fall does matter. Think about sports climbers taking massive whippers. It is a shock load but with low impact force generated. Also the difference between professional Industrail rope access work (liability and insurance) and recreational climbing is a real thing. I’m coming from that first perspective. When I started climbing the asap did not exist and we used shunts and stops. Not really safe with two person rescue loads. If we go of EN nrs, the shunt is a rope grab and not a backup or rope adjustment device. So only static loading. It is that simple. Can it function as one maybe… I have seen it slip more than once. Look at manufacturers specs and that will tell you what you can and cannot do.
Thank you for your question. And the answer is of course.... It depends. If you are doing straight drops and small rope to ropes or maybe a single large R2R you can suffice with one and tie a butterfly to clip into when needing a second point. For everything else and ease of use.. Have two ;-). Video's on that subject are coming in a few weeks!
Thank you for your question 🙏🏻. Phase one of the channel is all about irata/sprat rope access. After that I am taking part of those techniques and branching out into other areas. Tower climbing and rescue being part of that. Doe you have specific things you would like to see?
@@TheRopeAccessChannel that sounds perfect. looking forward to the content. I do mostly tower climbing via fixed ladder. About to head to Learn to Return in Anchorage to get recertified. It would be great to go over tool and tool safety, rope care and maintenance, PIck offs, and rigging. thanks!!!
@@scottdickens1454 I do have a fun little video on my private channel. This was my first job back climbing after a broken collarbone. We were cleaning up towers and (sometimes literally) throwing out old junk. bit.ly/3MtMlxs
I need to dig deep to find that one. Havent used it in ten years I think. I have added it to the list of gear video's to make! Thanks for the suggestion :-)
The Safe-Tec Duck-R back up device is a pretty common secondary back up device I see used. Maybe a video showing this one and how it works would be good. Great channel by the way, can’t wait to see what other videos you got coming.
Thank you 🙏🏻.
I totally agree, that would be a good device to dive into! In my neck of the woods not so common though. I’ll see if I can get my hands on one👍🏼👍🏼
Thanks a lot. Your comments are great addition or, better to say, completion to some IRATA courses/instructors. A "paper" is not all we want from course, but not all instructors give you their real experience/love for this work. So with friends we re-train under your instructions.
If you could explain your opinion about "rocker" style devices, this "lesson" will be more than complete
Thank you for sharing. These types of comments really make this worth while🙏🏻🙏🏻
I have so many videos to film, including on backups. I just don’t have the time haha.
I climbed with the Singing Rock Locker for a year. I liked it, but especially on long drops the fact that and ASAP or tow cord operated backups work easier. But I have definitely not tried all the devices out there. Can Goblin for instance seems good too. Do you know that? And what is your backup of choice?
I believe. Many topics, questions, all you'd like to share and of course videos are only "hobby addition" to your real work and courses you provide in real world. And of course haven't tried all devices which is impossible and irrational.
I have used Shunt before, which was not as bad if you are ultra careful to never touch devices's body and don't need to descend (change work place) much. With Prusik hitch somewhat below on a backup rope. Which was effect of collecting good practice from other guys, at jobs where IRATA or any other course wasn't required, but safety is still your basic personal requirement. But a) not safe at all and b) not for IRATA (forgotten for a) reason). "Of choice, of course" - ASAP, which is just an industry standard, for many reasons. For a while, still not my own piece. Which is my goal - to have every piece of gear trusty, known from first second of use. ASAP is almost "install and forget, even if you're tired". But I search for some reasonable backup for really dirty works where ASAP can be a bit too delicate and vulnerable of getting some pollution inside mechanism. Like concrete repair (grinding, tons of concrete dust flying around, then resin injections) or steel works (tons of steel and grinding dust).
Thanks for tip - goblin looks interesting, as device's body doesn't act as a lever in first moment. I still search.
@@c64club I learned to climb with a Stop and a Shunt haha. Worked like a dream especially in very dirty environments. But as products developed and got safer we moved to better option. A Shunt is a rope grab and therefore not a backup. That's why according to IRATA you can't use it. (Well you can as with any rope grab, but in a very limited use)
If the Shunt works for you in your environment, maybe you like the Safetec DuckR www.industrieelklimmen.nl/product/safetec-duck-r-backup/. I bought one a few months ago and really like it as a second backup. It operates similarly as a Shunt and has CE EN 12841:2006 A so it is a backup and can be used for a rescue load in a pinch. But definitely RTFM on that on.
I had a look at what backups I own and tried out. This was all around 2010 so updated versions might work better now. I could not get used to the ASAP (introduced to me around 2006/8 so after a few years I decided to find something better suited for me.
Singing Rock Locker. Okay but too much hassle, especially on the descent.
Kong Backup. Same conclusion as the Locker. It has to be at ff2 for it to slide down automatically. I did not like that
ISC Red. worked better than the previous two. But there was something with tight lines and that it might not engage and the tow cord.. I think they improved it later with the tow cord release mechanism.
So in the end I came back to the ASAP. The install and forget aspect and the fact the you can literally hold and it will still engage make it a clear winner in my books
I understand that some work environments wear out gear faster and that is just the cost of doing business right. I prefer the best gear out there and if it is a dirty job, then the prize goes up to cover those expenses.
Oh yeah! The Heightec Quadra or Quantum. Tried it 5 or 6 years ago. Can't remember exactly. To be honest, for my use.. It was the worst of all I mentioned.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Thanks for suggestions about wear. If work in dust is only a matter of faster wear, I don't mind. Buying one ASAP per year is not losing a fortune. Four-five workdays and you have $$ for new one. Just affraid if such precise device could operate properly in really dusty env, that's why I search for something less prone to cancel its function when dusted. If ASAP can work in dust, then all my "research" is unneeded.
If Petzl just made some dust-covers for ASAP... I would buy them in 6packs, haha. Install, install cover and forget. Something like spatter-covers for ropes when welding. I have few kevlar ones. No worry about rope if installed properly.
@@c64club trademark it and make ASAP covers 😜😜
I have never encountered an asap that did not lock. Older and dirtier ones just seem to stop quicker. The wheel spins less free. If anyone reading this has heard of an asap not locking please do share.
Glad I found your channel. I am coming up on level 2 and learned a lot by watching keep it up dude
That’s great to hear! Glad the videos are helping. 👍🏼
Be sure to like and watch till the end if you want to support the channel😉🙏🏻
Another great video! Good to see you mention the wind factor and what I call the bubble of trouble when using the ASAP. Many do not see this as a concern but it should be. A comment below mentions the shunt. Before the shunt people used a jumar with a energy absorbing lanyard and I still do. This way my hand is always on the backup device so I am aware what is going on with it and the rope. I can also attach and remove it one handed and best of all, I can descend way faster.
Thanks 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
Depending on your industry, the jumar as a backup would not be allowed. Its a rope clamp and not a backup device. I know the certification allows for a slight dynamic load at FF1 (140kg I think..) But still it is not designed for it. If you forget and end up at FF2 things could get scary. Something like a DuckR or ISC Red would work better I think?? You can tow those on the descend and the DuckR is rated for rescue as well.
Question for you. How do you descend with a jumar as a backup?
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Right hand operates the descender. Left hand holds jumar with thumb holding the clamp/cam back (not open) and the tail from the descender running between the jumar and my left palm. Anything goes wrong to cause my thumb to slip of the jumar and it all locks up. I use a SRT stop descender and a SRT jumar. IRATA guys hate it but IT IS LEGAL and I feel it is better for the reasons stated above. Faster so clearing hazards is easier and safer, I can descend a 10 storey building and only touch it a couple of times and also being able to attach it and remove it easily with one hand I think is a huge plus because being easy to use means it is used. I personally hate the ASAP, how it locks up should I descend too fast for it. I find it dangerous though it is what most use where I am. The shunt, DuckR and ISC Red all require two hands to attach and remove and I see many people get a little... lazy with their use when working near edges because of it also where I am FF2 falls are not allowed and should never happen.
Also jumar is attached to the harness by an energy absorbing lanyard without any additional lanyards/sling so the who system is short. It is not a trip hazard and this shortens the fall before things kick in compared to other systems I have seen used. It is not lead down before thr user or dragged behind the user but held in front of the user.
Thank you for painting the picture.
I'm not saying anything about the legality of things according to laws. I work mainly for IRATA companies and the way you use it is outside of the ICOP and not according to manufacturers specs. I do not doubt that your system works for you.
However where I live you would have a hard time explaining your choices in court if the SHTF. Especially if some HSE book wurm starts mentioning device that are rated as backups and you were not using those.
The fact that the asap locks at a certain speed is in my opinion an advantage. We do not need speed in industrial rope access. Increasing speed usually means decreasing control and safety. Slow and controlled is the way to go. Especially when working around inexperienced techs. They do not need to start copying experienced people who are able to stay in control. I've seen it happen in the Stop/Shunt days. Needing two hands to put on a device is not a bad thing. Lock your descender and take your time.
FF2 should never happen as is getting lazy at the edge. Both do happen so it is beneficial to have a system that is capable of handling that. And having that should not mean you can get lazy!
Like I said, I do not doubt you have a perfect working system for you. Reading your comments I gather you must have decades of experience and you know what you are doing. And if your work environment allows you to operate the way you do, have at it. I just think there are better/safer options.
And that is part of the beauty of our industry. Multiple ways to room and such. We do not have to agree on everything.
To each his own
I look forward to reading more of your comments!
Have a good one👊🏻
@@TheRopeAccessChannel This from you shows a great attitude. "And that is part of the beauty of our industry. Multiple ways to room and such. We do not have to agree on everything." It is a shame that discussing the intricacies via text can be difficult as I think you would be a great person to have a yarn with.
@@pandytbox yeah man. I think I can say that goes both ways😉👊🏼
I love watching your videos ❤. They're very informative and presentable.
Thank you! That is very much appreciated!
Please make a video with the Fuse and the Goblin and something simple as the Shunt and Locker
When I have time hahaha. NOt the Shunt though, that is not a backup device ;-)
I miss the days when we used shunts as back ups!
I feel you brother haha it took me some getting used to as well. But I have to say, the Safetec DuckR is a very good alternative to it.
1
🙏🏼
Gj mate!!!
Thanks man 🙏🏼🙏🏼
Great content
Than you 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Hello Alex, I'm really looking forward to the upcoming videos. My hobby has been sport and industrial climbing with geocaching for 2 years. I'm thinking of doing level 1 and 2. What has to be replaced in a system if you fall into the security system (ASAP)? Just the energy absorber and the rope? Or all things that got the fall energy? Thank you and keep it up.
That’s great to hear! Thank you 🙏🏻🙏🏻
If do get your Level 1 then it will take you at least a year and 1000 hours on rope signed of by an L3. So that second step is not so easy.
In case of a shock load it is advised to scrap everything that was loaded in the system.
@@TheRopeAccessChannel Thanks for the answer. That sounds hard, replacing everything. But rather a new belt, new ASAP and rope, because life is worth more than these, for example 700 euros. I figured the ASAP would be strong enough to withstand at least one more fall. Some use the SHUNT as a backup, what do you think of that? I use ASAP and secondly the GOBLIN from CAMP.
@@technoheld1989 the severity of the fall does matter. Think about sports climbers taking massive whippers. It is a shock load but with low impact force generated. Also the difference between professional Industrail rope access work (liability and insurance) and recreational climbing is a real thing. I’m coming from that first perspective.
When I started climbing the asap did not exist and we used shunts and stops. Not really safe with two person rescue loads. If we go of EN nrs, the shunt is a rope grab and not a backup or rope adjustment device. So only static loading. It is that simple. Can it function as one maybe… I have seen it slip more than once. Look at manufacturers specs and that will tell you what you can and cannot do.
How many back up a rope access technician need to bring with them?
Thank you for your question.
And the answer is of course.... It depends.
If you are doing straight drops and small rope to ropes or maybe a single large R2R you can suffice with one and tie a butterfly to clip into when needing a second point. For everything else and ease of use.. Have two ;-).
Video's on that subject are coming in a few weeks!
Can person put backup device on waist d ring? Will that be safe practice?
I already answered this in your comment on another video
are you going to include tower climbing and resuce?
Thank you for your question 🙏🏻. Phase one of the channel is all about irata/sprat rope access. After that I am taking part of those techniques and branching out into other areas. Tower climbing and rescue being part of that. Doe you have specific things you would like to see?
@@TheRopeAccessChannel that sounds perfect. looking forward to the content. I do mostly tower climbing via fixed ladder. About to head to Learn to Return in Anchorage to get recertified. It would be great to go over tool and tool safety, rope care and maintenance, PIck offs, and rigging. thanks!!!
@@scottdickens1454 Fantastic! Thanks for your input 🙏🏼🙏🏼
@@scottdickens1454 I do have a fun little video on my private channel. This was my first job back climbing after a broken collarbone. We were cleaning up towers and (sometimes literally) throwing out old junk.
bit.ly/3MtMlxs
Please do Kong Back Up system
I need to dig deep to find that one. Havent used it in ten years I think. I have added it to the list of gear video's to make! Thanks for the suggestion :-)
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Manu Buiter Thank you for commenting🙏🏻