You two are part of a teeny tiny minority of RUclips lawyers who were not manipulated by these masterful manipulator defense lawyers! I love your humor, too, when describing the "conspiracy!" The only conspirators in this case are Karen Read, Alan Jackson and David Yanetti! Let's hope the state will be successful in trial #2.
You are great, guys. Sadly, it seems that reasoning and common sense is too much effort for the people hell bent on KR's innocence. At this point is like a weird religion that no ammount of bullet proof evidence can help. I suggest Better Help for all those...😅
It's nearly a social contagion. It's quite tragic to witness how unbelievably gullible the majority of American adults are-adults who are raising children. I'm appreciative that I was taught to read and think critically, and to always question everything, and compile objective evidence in which to ultimately come to a reasonable deduction.
I will chime in for what its worth and say I appreciate you all presenting this from a different angle. I do not believe in the conspiracy. However, i do believe that there was some questionable police work and i dont think she hit him. I just cannot in any world give Trooper Pauls explanation of how it happened any weight vs the FBI expert. If she did it, then please explain to me his injuries, where he ended up, etc. If i was a juror, i would have voted not guilty on all accounts, simply because the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof. The defense has no burden so the fact that the conspiracy falls apart pretty quickly doesn't bother me, its not their job to prove that. As prosecutors/former prosecutors, i just want you to see this how the average joe does, maybe thats frightening, sorry if it is. I will continue to listen because I love your Podcast. Its fairly silly to say just because we disagree on one case, I'm never listening again. How does that help you become a better person? We can't just write people off because they see things differently. Please do a bonus episode with the Defense Diaries on this case. It was great to see both of you stand firm when you hashed it out last time.
Thank you for not giving the conspiracy theory any weight. Why would a cop be part of a cover up, get multiple people involved and then out the body on his front yard????
@@alabama.worley He would. It was the only way to avoid the scent of a dead corpse in his house or in any vehicle. John HAD to die outside. Testimony confirms that John did not die immediately from the head wound but was immediately unconscious. Alberts and Higgins had no choice but to place John outside to die in the freezing cold. With his constantly ringing phone placed UNDER his body - as he was found.
@@buckstopshere6306 But the defense argued that O Keefe was kept in the basement for 3 hours before dumping the body outside. Read's incessant calling must have occurred while John was in the basement. And of course, IF Higgins/Albert killed O Keefe in the basement, it goes without saying that they had to get rid of the body. But why just dump it on the front lawn which would tend to incriminate the residents of 34 Fairview? Of course, the OP is simply pointing out the absurdity of the whole conspiracy narrative. That a group of normal suburbanites beat up O Keefe, did not bother to call 911 but, instead, callously dumped him on the front yard to die an agonizing death. Only the silliest person on the face of the earth would buy such a preposterous narrative.
@@Luvlacek3 😂😂😂 That's the most ridiculous statement I've seen yet. I watched the entire trial. I don't know if she's guilty or not. But definitely the prosecutor did not in any way shape or form prove that she did beyond a reasonable doubt.
@@vickiekasafirek9096Exactly!!!!!! Fuck the Conspiracy Theory! Let it go!! The CW failed. The brainwashing is on the prosecution side if at all….the people who think KR is guilty reallly have to reach in order for it to even be possible let alone actual. SMH
I don't understand how this went from something that just looks like a horrible tragic accident...it's not a murder, not manslaughter... Not some huge grand conspiracy... Just the result of too much drinking, bad weather and bad decisions.. but FFS.... IT WAS an ACCIDENT! 😤
Oh really? You get bruises on your knuckles from an accident? Your face gets beaten in from an accident? You don’t know what you’re talking about at all.
Great deciphering of the psychological truths in the case that you uncovered! Taking a rounded approach overview and logically explaining the justifications underlying the solutions. Thank you very much!!
You make your own point…. The defense had to play the card handed, they had to go with the cover up therory because that is what actually happened. EVERYONE and their mom knows there are a 100 better ways to defend this case but they went with the truth, thanks to a hand from the FBI. Your analysis of the phone calls- ridiculous. I havent made a butt dial on my iphone in 10 years! Nor do I get them. So many butt dials in one night for so many! You cant just skirt by that. Brett, your take on the voicemails omg 😱 …sounds like a regular jealous night for them…. Not evidence of MURDER! Karen wouldnt plea so they up the charges to 2nd degree murder- I thought you guys were against that sort of thing in the past?!?
Omg. Thank you!!! It is preposterous that we are to believe that bs about butt dialing. The CW are seriously insulting our intelligence with this nonsense.
The truth? Exactly how did the defense follow through on their promise during opening statements to show that KR was framed? You're right they hey didn't NEED to prove anything. But they promised to show she was framed. Then they threw spaghetti at the wall the entire trial looking for gotcha moments with literally every witness they cross examined. It was completely ludicrous. There was no conspiracy. The witnesses were John's friends who loved him. There was only one person with hate in her heart that night. "John I F'ING HATE YOU!!!!" Karen Read is guilty of killing John O'Keefe with her SUV. It's obvious.
@@buckstopshere6306 according to heresay from someone who heard something. Did you read the CW's response? I'll believe nothing the defense says until the judge backs it up. They are proven schemers, liars, and manipulators, just like their nasty client.
@@buckstopshere6306 But that's not a fundamental disagreement. The jury voted to acquit on Murder 2. I don't think that there was any way for the prosecution to prove that Read intentionally ran over O Keefe, and I am surprised that the prosecution even charged her with it. I think that the voicemails do indicate that she was mad at O Keefe but are more indicative that she was blind drunk. Apparently, the jury voted to convict on the dui/manslaughter by an 8-4 vote (Other reports said 10-2). And I agree that the prosecution did a poor job of presenting the evidence. They should have retained a better accident reconstruction evidence. Despite all of these problems, the majority of the jury believed that Read drunkenly ran over O Keefe.
I feel like there’s some real prosecutor bias here. I don’t believe there was a premeditated conspiracy whatsoever to kill John and blame Karen. I do believe that he was beaten in side the house, for me you couldn’t convince me his injuries were caused by a car. I think an unforeseen fight happened inside the house and they placed him outside to die. The investigators then zeroed in on Karen, she became a convenient target, and they only followed evidence that led to her. Normally I agree with Alice and Brett but on this case I just cannot see it. Just because most police/ prosecutions are honest, doesn’t mean they all are.
More like prosecutor perspective than bias, and it’s a refreshing change from the 99% defense atty bias. A conspiracy doesn’t have to be premeditated, and the fight in the house then dumping at the curb then planting taillight pieces is so unlikely it’s silly.
You say "they placed him outside to die" so cavalierly. Do you know ANYONE who is so heartless that they would do this. AND supposedly they kept him down in the basement for 3 hours BEFORE they dumped him in the snow. This whole conspiracy narrative is contemptible nonsense. I can't believe that ANYONE buys it.
@@Luvlacek3Jen said things more incriminating. Her actions that night scream of guilt Karen’s actions are that of someone who’s hysterical and panicking.
Wow this is just painful. It’s as though I’m listening to a different podcast. I wonder why they decided to lean so heavily towards justifying the incompetence that was this investigation? I’m so confused. Why aren’t they examining the facts and evidence presented by both sides. I mean do they really WANT us to think that this case that was presented by the prosecution wasn’t an embarrassment? Alice and Brett can you please explain what your true thoughts about the testimony that the prosecution experts gave. Did those experts meet the expectations needed to convince you they knew what they were talking about. Did you truly find them credible? I mean all other feelings aside. You are truly of the mindset that what this prosecution presented was believable and clearly proved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? If you were on the jury and had to decide based on just the facts presented in court. Leaving out all knowledge of the stuff happening outside of the court that the jury does not know about? In the bubble of the court and no outside distractions you were completely convinced by the evidence and testimony presented by the CW that KR is guilty of 2nd degree murder and that she knowingly hit him and left him to die? And you were convinced that all of the facts, testimony and evidence were a true representation of what happened and it proves that JO’s body and the crime scene match what you have been told happened that night? You believe because KR asked if she hit him then that proves that he was hit by a vehicle? You’re able to make all the facts ,evidence and testimony all make sense with how the scene of the crime has been documented. You don’t think there has been any evidence of investigative misconduct at all? Are you truly so hung up on being convinced of a conspiracy that you can’t be convinced that neither side is right and KR is just innocent (of hitting him with the vehicle) and that it didn’t happen how they want us to believe it did.? Is the only option that he was hit by a vehicle? Is it not possible that all of these people are idiots who were drunk and maybe it’s as simple as that this was a tragic ACCIDENT and maybe they didn’t realize he would die.. hence googling hos long. And then when they realize that this went nuclear they ALL scramble and disagree on what to do… because it doesn’t usually occur to drunk people to just do the right thing because ironically they were worried about the consequences of their drunken actions rather than face the truth. Negligence on ALL OF THEIR PARTS is what killed JO. I think everyone is trying too hard here. Why is everyone so convinced that this was foul play? It was a fucking blizzard!! This being a tragic ACCIDENT actually makes the MOST SENSE!! Why make anything up??? Just tell us what happened that night!!
What do you mean by "tragic accident"? Do you mean something OTHER than Read drunkenly running over O Keefe? That is a tragic accident. It is also dui/manslaughter.
I absolutely agree. I usually love this podcast but I’m extremely disappointed in the way this case has been discussed. I doubt I’ll be back because there’s no more credibility
I second your frustration with Brett and Alice's presentation of the "evidence." It's utterly painful. They must have watched a different trial to me. Bizarre.
Hello he was found on the grass, his blood was on top of the snow, no plastic pieces in his wounds in his arm and the Jeep was parked behind the SUV , with Plough attached.
You're forgetting a few things: pieces of her taillight were found embedded in his clothing. His DNA was found on her taillight housing, and one of his hairs was found stuck to the back of her car. In addition, the vehicle data shows that she began to pull forward, put it in reverse and pressed down the accelerator with 74 percent pressure (almost to the floor) reaching a speed in reverse of about 24mph. That shows that she hit him with her car. It shows it clear as day. And her angry voicemails left not long after that show she did it with malice, in my opinion.
@francesca6301 I'm sure they heard that, none of them want to LISTEN to that because it goes against the preposterous convoluted desperate defense conspiracy theory.
Listening to this after the fact has been very enlightening, I live in Canton and have much more knowledge of the case than the hosts did when this was recorded and probably more than they do today, but it's interesting to hear an outsider's opinion.
@@milart12 No inside info from people who are definitely in the know, for as many rumors I get from people claiming they know things I get just as many that are known to be false. Latest rumor is the new prosecution expert for the car data has damaged the info so it can't be retrieved. My bigger point was that the hosts of this show aren't following it and catching all the details.
@@milart12 I've only talked to a couple people who say guilty, most say innocent, but it's not talked about all that often probably because people have their opinions set and it could just cause conflict.
I thought I would be able to listen to this podcast but I can't. The gaslighting is extreme right from the start. The defence never even implied, let alone said that this was pre-planned. While what Higgins & Albert did was a fight and it looked silly from the defence side, it's more likely why they showed it was that to show that these two fight and are capable of fighting. Not that they planned to fight John. Let's face it the prosecution says that Karen didn't take her shoes off inside of John's house, because she new he was dead. Even more stupid than the fighting. This is as far as I got in this podcast. These two are shady and misleading.
But the defense DID frequently refer to the attack as an ambush. And it depends on what you mean by "planned" and when the plan was hatched. Because the defense had to prove that the attack occurred at 12:21 when O Keefe's Apple device purported to show him ascending/descending stairs, the defense had to attempt to prove that O Keefe was set upon AS SOON AS HE STEPPED INTO 34 FAIRVIEW. That Higgins and Albert were lying in wait for O Keefe to usher him downstairs and beat him. The timing doesn't work unless this is true. This also allows the defense to say that others at the party, like Sara Levinson, Jennifer Nagel et. all were completely unaware that O Keefe was immediately grabbed by Higgins and Albert(and also Colin Albert in some versions), torn apart by the dog Chloe and left to die in the basement for more than 3 hours. Absurd, of course. The data from O Keefe's Apple health device turned out to be yet another red herring as data from other devices unequivocally proved that O Keefe could not possibly have been ascending and descending stairs at this time. Instead, O Keefe was driving with Read at the time and the Apple device mistook the travelling in the card for ascending and descending stairs.
@@milart12 First of all the defence doesn’t have to proof anything when it comes to their alternative theory. Only prosecution has the burden of proof. What is defence doing is presenting alternative culprit (or something like that not sure what the legal definition is), which they have right to do. It was pretty annoying that the first half of the trial was about the alternative theory, but that is not fault of the defence. Those were the witnesses for the prosecution. It was the prosecution that was concentrating way too much about the conspiracy. The defence just went along with it. They have no choice in what order the prosecution calls their witnesses. With the “planned” I was talking about what Brett and Alice were saying. I think they even said premeditated, which the defence never said, so is misleading. Ambushed doesn’t mean planned attack. And if you don’t believe this theory, you can disregard it. I understand why the defence is showing an alternative, but I really don’t care. I don’t care if John went up and down. The main question is if he was hit by a car and there is no evidence that he was. Which means something else happen. It could have been he slipped and hit his head. And no one is guilty. But because of the fact that the police failed to investigate properly, we will never know.
@@Katarina_B An ambush is a surprise attack carried out by people lying in wait in a concealed position. The defense used this term SEVERAL times. And they were very clear about the fact that Higgins/Albert grabbed O Keefe as soon as he stepped into the house. They had to due to their theory that O Keefe's Apple health data appeared to show that O Keefe was ascending/descending stairs at 12:21. Of course, this Apple health data was proven to be incorrect, but the defense was wedded to this theory and stuck with it, despite the wild inconsistencies that this theory generated. E.g., why would Jen Mccabe be texting O Keefe AFTER the attack? Why did O Keefe's cell phone demonstrate that he hadn't even arrived at 34 Fairview until 12:24? I could go on and on. It is impossible to believe that O Keefe fell on his own. You are ignoring the evidence when you say that. Given the debris from Read's taillight found at the scene, you would have to believe that Read hit something else and that O Keefe died some other way. You would have to ignore the evidence gleaned from Read's Lexus computer data showing her reversing at a high rate of speed, hitting something and then O Keefe's phone moving for the last time shortly thereafter. If O Keefe died some other way, it would have been simultaneous with Read backing up at a high rate of speed and hitting something other than O Keefe This is truly impossible to believe. You would also have to discount the fact that Read admitted that she hit him. Heck, she stated this on national TV. Her father even said that Read told him that.
Thank you for standing up for truth but I do disagree with you on Darlie Routere case. She’s 100% guilty she murdered those little boys; psycho she is just like Karen
You guys are way off on the dog aspect of this case. And about Bryan Albert. Albert is a known killer with a black book and a “signature” that he leaves on each of the victims he has beaten to death with his own hands. John O’Keefe’s body showed this same signature because he was beaten to death by Bryan Albert. During the fight, Chloe likely joined in to protect her owner. John’s arm WAS bitten but no one investigating the scene ever bothered to take any samples of anything. So for you to say there was no DNA found is a little misleading. It would have been found if they properly checked for it. If you two don’t believe the Alberts are guilty and don’t believe the conspiracy, do you honestly believe Karen did this? I’m very put off by the flippant way you’ve been discussing what is a very real conspiracy. Go to Massachusetts. Talk to people here. No one believes Karen did this. Karen is innocent. John was murdered inside that house and no one seems to care.
Thanks for the podcast. I'm still about 80/20 towards her having hit him with the car. I understand your making a case for that had to be what happened, but I also hear others talking about how some other evidence doesn't line up. If I'm no more certain than 80/20, I can't convict. I think the whole defense case of a massive premeditated murder is silly. I'm less certain that something didn't happen and people covered up what happened. You ridicule that idea, but lawyers often use ridicule to cover flaws in what they want people to believe. Ridicule and contempt for other ideas are not evidence, and I'm skeptical of people who try to use those techniques. With the snow falling so hard, maybe he was killed by the Dylatov Pass yeti. The conspiracy part was between the yeti and an owl. All jokes aside, another great tragedy of the whole situation is that she was driving away from the bar when she was so drunk. That makes my mind jump to the question, "Why are the cops never there when they are needed?" That leads to the obvious, "Oh yeah, a cop was in the passenger's seat." That neither they nor their friends acted on the fact that no one leaving the bar was in a condition to drive wouldn't justify her getting mad, gunning the engine, and running over her boyfriend. On the other hand, I can see where jurors would just throw up their hands in frustration over what is an obvious Darwin Award situation.
If Karen is guilty why would Jen make a 9 second phone call to her sister after she hung up from 911 and whisper 5 words, someone’s coming out to help. She had no idea that call was being recorded and it proves that Jen and those in that house knew for a fact that John was dead on the lawn before he was “found” Karen is innocent, science proves it, facts prove it and the actions and words of Jen prove it.
There is absolutely without a doubt no way she hit him with her car. Even if she had, his body does not line up with that type of injury. John was beaten to death.
I can imagine the jurors were rolling their eyes at a lot of the defence crosses with the witnesses. Probably dismissed that and focused on what most likely happened. Which appears to be she hit him accidentally.
@@crippledalien5937 Watch the video I linked and then come back here and say that again. There is indisputable evidence that he was beaten to death. Are we talking about the same trial? How can you say that?
![Chino Pacas - Modo Capone (with Drake & Fuerza Regida) [Video Oficial]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/zjv8TQ0gBkg/mqdefault.jpg)
I'm loving your coverage of this case, I agree with everything you say 💯
You two are part of a teeny tiny minority of RUclips lawyers who were not manipulated by these masterful manipulator defense lawyers! I love your humor, too, when describing the "conspiracy!" The only conspirators in this case are Karen Read, Alan Jackson and David Yanetti! Let's hope the state will be successful in trial #2.
Exactly.
You are great, guys. Sadly, it seems that reasoning and common sense is too much effort for the people hell bent on KR's innocence. At this point is like a weird religion that no ammount of bullet proof evidence can help. I suggest Better Help for all those...😅
It's nearly a social contagion. It's quite tragic to witness how unbelievably gullible the majority of American adults are-adults who are raising children. I'm appreciative that I was taught to read and think critically, and to always question everything, and compile objective evidence in which to ultimately come to a reasonable deduction.
I’m not entirely sure what I think happened in this case but what I do know is that Chloe does not deserve to be dragged online like this 😂
I will chime in for what its worth and say I appreciate you all presenting this from a different angle. I do not believe in the conspiracy. However, i do believe that there was some questionable police work and i dont think she hit him. I just cannot in any world give Trooper Pauls explanation of how it happened any weight vs the FBI expert. If she did it, then please explain to me his injuries, where he ended up, etc. If i was a juror, i would have voted not guilty on all accounts, simply because the prosecution did not meet their burden of proof. The defense has no burden so the fact that the conspiracy falls apart pretty quickly doesn't bother me, its not their job to prove that. As prosecutors/former prosecutors, i just want you to see this how the average joe does, maybe thats frightening, sorry if it is. I will continue to listen because I love your Podcast. Its fairly silly to say just because we disagree on one case, I'm never listening again. How does that help you become a better person? We can't just write people off because they see things differently.
Please do a bonus episode with the Defense Diaries on this case. It was great to see both of you stand firm when you hashed it out last time.
Thanks Brett and Alice
Can Lally add this episode to his next closing? Love it!! Thank you for presenting the facts, evidence, and LOGIC 🥰🥰
Thank you for not giving the conspiracy theory any weight. Why would a cop be part of a cover up, get multiple people involved and then out the body on his front yard????
He wouldn't.
@@Jenlp0211 Because he wouldn't want the scent of a dead corpse in his home or in any vehicle. That's why.
@@alabama.worley He would. It was the only way to avoid the scent of a dead corpse in his house or in any vehicle. John HAD to die outside. Testimony confirms that John did not die immediately from the head wound but was immediately unconscious.
Alberts and Higgins had no choice but to place John outside to die in the freezing cold. With his constantly ringing phone placed UNDER his body - as he was found.
@@buckstopshere6306 But the defense argued that O Keefe was kept in the basement for 3 hours before dumping the body outside. Read's incessant calling must have occurred while John was in the basement.
And of course, IF Higgins/Albert killed O Keefe in the basement, it goes without saying that they had to get rid of the body. But why just dump it on the front lawn which would tend to incriminate the residents of 34 Fairview? Of course, the OP is simply pointing out the absurdity of the whole conspiracy narrative. That a group of normal suburbanites beat up O Keefe, did not bother to call 911 but, instead, callously dumped him on the front yard to die an agonizing death. Only the silliest person on the face of the earth would buy such a preposterous narrative.
40 year old cop: got his whole life ahead of him! In his Prime of Life!
50 year old judge: Too Old, doesn’t know every meme on Twitch, needs to retire
Thanks for wrapping this up so we'll and confirming what I've been thinking all along.
Did you guys even watch the trial??? SMH I guess prosecutors stick with prosecutors no matter what. Just like cops stick with cops.
Wow just wow. Karen has manipulated all of you 🙄🤦🏼♀️
@@Luvlacek3 😂😂😂 That's the most ridiculous statement I've seen yet. I watched the entire trial. I don't know if she's guilty or not. But definitely the prosecutor did not in any way shape or form prove that she did beyond a reasonable doubt.
@@vickiekasafirek9096Exactly!!!!!! Fuck the Conspiracy Theory! Let it go!! The CW failed. The brainwashing is on the prosecution side if at all….the people who think KR is guilty reallly have to reach in order for it to even be possible let alone actual. SMH
Excellent comeback!! 👏 On target. You make a valid and relevant point. Familiarity breeds loyalty.
@@Luvlacek3What?? And we all have a horse in race, how??
I don't understand how this went from something that just looks like a horrible tragic accident...it's not a murder, not manslaughter... Not some huge grand conspiracy...
Just the result of too much drinking, bad weather and bad decisions.. but FFS.... IT WAS an ACCIDENT! 😤
Oh really? You get bruises on your knuckles from an accident? Your face gets beaten in from an accident? You don’t know what you’re talking about at all.
But Karen hit him while intoxicated. So it has to be manslaughter. I’m sure she didn’t mean to. Creating a conspiracy cover up was not a smart move
@@crippledalien5937agreed
@@crippledalien5937what proves she hit him? I think I missed that part.
Nothing proves that Karen hit him with her vehicle.
Great deciphering of the psychological truths in the case that you uncovered! Taking a rounded approach overview and logically explaining the justifications underlying the solutions. Thank you very much!!
You make your own point…. The defense had to play the card handed, they had to go with the cover up therory because that is what actually happened. EVERYONE and their mom knows there are a 100 better ways to defend this case but they went with the truth, thanks to a hand from the FBI. Your analysis of the phone calls- ridiculous. I havent made a butt dial on my iphone in 10 years! Nor do I get them. So many butt dials in one night for so many! You cant just skirt by that. Brett, your take on the voicemails omg 😱 …sounds like a regular jealous night for them…. Not evidence of MURDER! Karen wouldnt plea so they up the charges to 2nd degree murder- I thought you guys were against that sort of thing in the past?!?
Omg. Thank you!!! It is preposterous that we are to believe that bs about butt dialing. The CW are seriously insulting our intelligence with this nonsense.
The truth? Exactly how did the defense follow through on their promise during opening statements to show that KR was framed? You're right they hey didn't NEED to prove anything. But they promised to show she was framed. Then they threw spaghetti at the wall the entire trial looking for gotcha moments with literally every witness they cross examined. It was completely ludicrous. There was no conspiracy. The witnesses were John's friends who loved him. There was only one person with hate in her heart that night. "John I F'ING HATE YOU!!!!" Karen Read is guilty of killing John O'Keefe with her SUV. It's obvious.
@francesca6301 The jurors disagreed with you.
Unanimously Not Guilty on Count 1 and Count 3.
Split vote on Count 2.
@@buckstopshere6306 according to heresay from someone who heard something. Did you read the CW's response? I'll believe nothing the defense says until the judge backs it up. They are proven schemers, liars, and manipulators, just like their nasty client.
@@buckstopshere6306 But that's not a fundamental disagreement. The jury voted to acquit on Murder 2. I don't think that there was any way for the prosecution to prove that Read intentionally ran over O Keefe, and I am surprised that the prosecution even charged her with it. I think that the voicemails do indicate that she was mad at O Keefe but are more indicative that she was blind drunk. Apparently, the jury voted to convict on the dui/manslaughter by an 8-4 vote (Other reports said 10-2).
And I agree that the prosecution did a poor job of presenting the evidence. They should have retained a better accident reconstruction evidence. Despite all of these problems, the majority of the jury believed that Read drunkenly ran over O Keefe.
I feel like there’s some real prosecutor bias here. I don’t believe there was a premeditated conspiracy whatsoever to kill John and blame Karen. I do believe that he was beaten in side the house, for me you couldn’t convince me his injuries were caused by a car. I think an unforeseen fight happened inside the house and they placed him outside to die. The investigators then zeroed in on Karen, she became a convenient target, and they only followed evidence that led to her. Normally I agree with Alice and Brett but on this case I just cannot see it. Just because most police/ prosecutions are honest, doesn’t mean they all are.
More like prosecutor perspective than bias, and it’s a refreshing change from the 99% defense atty bias. A conspiracy doesn’t have to be premeditated, and the fight in the house then dumping at the curb then planting taillight pieces is so unlikely it’s silly.
She hit him. She said it numerous times including in her interview💯
You say "they placed him outside to die" so cavalierly. Do you know ANYONE who is so heartless that they would do this. AND supposedly they kept him down in the basement for 3 hours BEFORE they dumped him in the snow. This whole conspiracy narrative is contemptible nonsense. I can't believe that ANYONE buys it.
@@Luvlacek3Jen said things more incriminating. Her actions that night scream of guilt Karen’s actions are that of someone who’s hysterical and panicking.
@@ThisCharminManc I don't know man. On a hypothetical "Incrimination Scale," saying "I hit him" is about a 10.
I Friend Requested You.
Now You Owe Me.
(T-shirt idea🤷🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤣)
Wow this is just painful. It’s as though I’m listening to a different podcast. I wonder why they decided to lean so heavily towards justifying the incompetence that was this investigation? I’m so confused. Why aren’t they examining the facts and evidence presented by both sides. I mean do they really WANT us to think that this case that was presented by the prosecution wasn’t an embarrassment? Alice and Brett can you please explain what your true thoughts about the testimony that the prosecution experts gave. Did those experts meet the expectations needed to convince you they knew what they were talking about. Did you truly find them credible? I mean all other feelings aside. You are truly of the mindset that what this prosecution presented was believable and clearly proved guilt beyond a reasonable doubt? If you were on the jury and had to decide based on just the facts presented in court. Leaving out all knowledge of the stuff happening outside of the court that the jury does not know about? In the bubble of the court and no outside distractions you were completely convinced by the evidence and testimony presented by the CW that KR is guilty of 2nd degree murder and that she knowingly hit him and left him to die? And you were convinced that all of the facts, testimony and evidence were a true representation of what happened and it proves that JO’s body and the crime scene match what you have been told happened that night? You believe because KR asked if she hit him then that proves that he was hit by a vehicle? You’re able to make all the facts ,evidence and testimony all make sense with how the scene of the crime has been documented. You don’t think there has been any evidence of investigative misconduct at all? Are you truly so hung up on being convinced of a conspiracy that you can’t be convinced that neither side is right and KR is just innocent (of hitting him with the vehicle) and that it didn’t happen how they want us to believe it did.? Is the only option that he was hit by a vehicle? Is it not possible that all of these people are idiots who were drunk and maybe it’s as simple as that this was a tragic ACCIDENT and maybe they didn’t realize he would die.. hence googling hos long. And then when they realize that this went nuclear they ALL scramble and disagree on what to do… because it doesn’t usually occur to drunk people to just do the right thing because ironically they were worried about the consequences of their drunken actions rather than face the truth. Negligence on ALL OF THEIR PARTS is what killed JO. I think everyone is trying too hard here. Why is everyone so convinced that this was foul play? It was a fucking blizzard!! This being a tragic ACCIDENT actually makes the MOST SENSE!! Why make anything up??? Just tell us what happened that night!!
Karen hit him with her car in a drunken rage and left him to die in cold. It's really not rocket science and all the evidence points to it.
What do you mean by "tragic accident"? Do you mean something OTHER than Read drunkenly running over O Keefe? That is a tragic accident. It is also dui/manslaughter.
I absolutely agree. I usually love this podcast but I’m extremely disappointed in the way this case has been discussed. I doubt I’ll be back because there’s no more credibility
I second your frustration with Brett and Alice's presentation of the "evidence." It's utterly painful. They must have watched a different trial to me. Bizarre.
@@leslievasquez2645 It DOES make me question the validity of their p[resentation of other cases previously that I had no or little knowledge of.
Sophisticated theory 😅😂😂
Hello he was found on the grass, his blood was on top of the snow, no plastic pieces in his wounds in his arm and the Jeep was parked behind the SUV , with Plough attached.
And????
So what's your point?😂
@@realhousewifeoftransylvania1.0 hey,DHead , presumed innocent, you're moronic.
You're forgetting a few things: pieces of her taillight were found embedded in his clothing. His DNA was found on her taillight housing, and one of his hairs was found stuck to the back of her car. In addition, the vehicle data shows that she began to pull forward, put it in reverse and pressed down the accelerator with 74 percent pressure (almost to the floor) reaching a speed in reverse of about 24mph. That shows that she hit him with her car. It shows it clear as day. And her angry voicemails left not long after that show she did it with malice, in my opinion.
@francesca6301 I'm sure they heard that, none of them want to LISTEN to that because it goes against the preposterous convoluted desperate defense conspiracy theory.
Listening to this after the fact has been very enlightening, I live in Canton and have much more knowledge of the case than the hosts did when this was recorded and probably more than they do today, but it's interesting to hear an outsider's opinion.
What's the word in Canton? Any scuttlebutt that the general public is not aware of?
@@milart12 No inside info from people who are definitely in the know, for as many rumors I get from people claiming they know things I get just as many that are known to be false. Latest rumor is the new prosecution expert for the car data has damaged the info so it can't be retrieved. My bigger point was that the hosts of this show aren't following it and catching all the details.
@@actionbenz1199 Is there a consensus about whether Read is guilty/innocent?
@@milart12 I've only talked to a couple people who say guilty, most say innocent, but it's not talked about all that often probably because people have their opinions set and it could just cause conflict.
@@actionbenz1199 Gotcha. Thank u
What a crock of an analysis.
I thought I would be able to listen to this podcast but I can't. The gaslighting is extreme right from the start. The defence never even implied, let alone said that this was pre-planned. While what Higgins & Albert did was a fight and it looked silly from the defence side, it's more likely why they showed it was that to show that these two fight and are capable of fighting. Not that they planned to fight John. Let's face it the prosecution says that Karen didn't take her shoes off inside of John's house, because she new he was dead. Even more stupid than the fighting.
This is as far as I got in this podcast. These two are shady and misleading.
Yup, I'm right behind you...on my way out.
It’s as if you’re in my head!! Exactly 💯💯💯
But the defense DID frequently refer to the attack as an ambush. And it depends on what you mean by "planned" and when the plan was hatched. Because the defense had to prove that the attack occurred at 12:21 when O Keefe's Apple device purported to show him ascending/descending stairs, the defense had to attempt to prove that O Keefe was set upon AS SOON AS HE STEPPED INTO 34 FAIRVIEW. That Higgins and Albert were lying in wait for O Keefe to usher him downstairs and beat him. The timing doesn't work unless this is true. This also allows the defense to say that others at the party, like Sara Levinson, Jennifer Nagel et. all were completely unaware that O Keefe was immediately grabbed by Higgins and Albert(and also Colin Albert in some versions), torn apart by the dog Chloe and left to die in the basement for more than 3 hours. Absurd, of course.
The data from O Keefe's Apple health device turned out to be yet another red herring as data from other devices unequivocally proved that O Keefe could not possibly have been ascending and descending stairs at this time. Instead, O Keefe was driving with Read at the time and the Apple device mistook the travelling in the card for ascending and descending stairs.
@@milart12 First of all the defence doesn’t have to proof anything when it comes to their alternative theory. Only prosecution has the burden of proof. What is defence doing is presenting alternative culprit (or something like that not sure what the legal definition is), which they have right to do.
It was pretty annoying that the first half of the trial was about the alternative theory, but that is not fault of the defence. Those were the witnesses for the prosecution. It was the prosecution that was concentrating way too much about the conspiracy. The defence just went along with it. They have no choice in what order the prosecution calls their witnesses.
With the “planned” I was talking about what Brett and Alice were saying. I think they even said premeditated, which the defence never said, so is misleading. Ambushed doesn’t mean planned attack.
And if you don’t believe this theory, you can disregard it. I understand why the defence is showing an alternative, but I really don’t care. I don’t care if John went up and down. The main question is if he was hit by a car and there is no evidence that he was. Which means something else happen.
It could have been he slipped and hit his head. And no one is guilty. But because of the fact that the police failed to investigate properly, we will never know.
@@Katarina_B An ambush is a surprise attack carried out by people lying in wait in a concealed position. The defense used this term SEVERAL times. And they were very clear about the fact that Higgins/Albert grabbed O Keefe as soon as he stepped into the house. They had to due to their theory that O Keefe's Apple health data appeared to show that O Keefe was ascending/descending stairs at 12:21. Of course, this Apple health data was proven to be incorrect, but the defense was wedded to this theory and stuck with it, despite the wild inconsistencies that this theory generated. E.g., why would Jen Mccabe be texting O Keefe AFTER the attack? Why did O Keefe's cell phone demonstrate that he hadn't even arrived at 34 Fairview until 12:24? I could go on and on.
It is impossible to believe that O Keefe fell on his own. You are ignoring the evidence when you say that. Given the debris from Read's taillight found at the scene, you would have to believe that Read hit something else and that O Keefe died some other way. You would have to ignore the evidence gleaned from Read's Lexus computer data showing her reversing at a high rate of speed, hitting something and then O Keefe's phone moving for the last time shortly thereafter. If O Keefe died some other way, it would have been simultaneous with Read backing up at a high rate of speed and hitting something other than O Keefe This is truly impossible to believe. You would also have to discount the fact that Read admitted that she hit him. Heck, she stated this on national TV. Her father even said that Read told him that.
Idk what trial u guys watched very weird. u guys seemed great till u start listening, what a disappointment
Until the objective truth doesn't align with your biased opinion based on overt manipulation.
Did you really watch the trial, guys? I am seriously beginning to wonder ...
I’m thinking not
Did you?
@@realhousewifeoftransylvania1.0 LOL. I was awake at 11pm each night for it here in Australia. I have only just recovered my sleep routine!
Exactly. They seem to pick and choose what they want to talk about and ignore everything else.
It’s wild!! I keep thinking they will get t the end and be like ….. You got Punked!! Or some bs like that. It’s the only thing that makes sense.
Thank you for standing up for truth but I do disagree with you on Darlie Routere case. She’s 100% guilty she murdered those little boys; psycho she is just like Karen
Of course Darlie is guilty lol. Did they say not guilty? Haha I’ll have to listen to
I'm pretty sure they said she killed them
@@madisenramos458They concurred with her guilt. I've not seen one case that they've missed the mark on to date.
Higgins
Second !! And this case is still a cluster lol
Now there may have been a partial verdict for some of the charges
The way I read it, the jury voted to acquit on Murder 2 but voted 8-4 to convict on dui/manslaughter.
Charges 1 & 3 were said to be NG and they hung on charge 2.
But there hasn’t been any official announcement of what the judge will rule.
Seriously? Do you even read the comments?
You guys are way off on the dog aspect of this case. And about Bryan Albert. Albert is a known killer with a black book and a “signature” that he leaves on each of the victims he has beaten to death with his own hands. John O’Keefe’s body showed this same signature because he was beaten to death by Bryan Albert. During the fight, Chloe likely joined in to protect her owner. John’s arm WAS bitten but no one investigating the scene ever bothered to take any samples of anything. So for you to say there was no DNA found is a little misleading. It would have been found if they properly checked for it.
If you two don’t believe the Alberts are guilty and don’t believe the conspiracy, do you honestly believe Karen did this? I’m very put off by the flippant way you’ve been discussing what is a very real conspiracy. Go to Massachusetts. Talk to people here. No one believes Karen did this. Karen is innocent. John was murdered inside that house and no one seems to care.
Brian Albert is a known killer? Haha, you have a screw loose
@@milart12 Yes he absolutely is. Hang on I’ll link the video that discusses it. He is a well known killer.
@@philmccracken2534"the video" you have to see why that's funny right. A single video ?
@@Shmaples It’s a retired investigator who is highly knowledgeable about this case. Watch it for yourself.
@@Shmaples ruclips.net/user/liveY-fzG7_KgwM?si=T1ZuySmwByvLV1oA
Thanks for the podcast.
I'm still about 80/20 towards her having hit him with the car. I understand your making a case for that had to be what happened, but I also hear others talking about how some other evidence doesn't line up. If I'm no more certain than 80/20, I can't convict. I think the whole defense case of a massive premeditated murder is silly. I'm less certain that something didn't happen and people covered up what happened. You ridicule that idea, but lawyers often use ridicule to cover flaws in what they want people to believe. Ridicule and contempt for other ideas are not evidence, and I'm skeptical of people who try to use those techniques.
With the snow falling so hard, maybe he was killed by the Dylatov Pass yeti. The conspiracy part was between the yeti and an owl.
All jokes aside, another great tragedy of the whole situation is that she was driving away from the bar when she was so drunk. That makes my mind jump to the question, "Why are the cops never there when they are needed?" That leads to the obvious, "Oh yeah, a cop was in the passenger's seat." That neither they nor their friends acted on the fact that no one leaving the bar was in a condition to drive wouldn't justify her getting mad, gunning the engine, and running over her boyfriend. On the other hand, I can see where jurors would just throw up their hands in frustration over what is an obvious Darwin Award situation.
If Karen is guilty why would Jen make a 9 second phone call to her sister after she hung up from 911 and whisper 5 words, someone’s coming out to help.
She had no idea that call was being recorded and it proves that Jen and those in that house knew for a fact that John was dead on the lawn before he was “found” Karen is innocent, science proves it, facts prove it and the actions and words of Jen prove it.
There is absolutely without a doubt no way she hit him with her car. Even if she had, his body does not line up with that type of injury. John was beaten to death.
I can imagine the jurors were rolling their eyes at a lot of the defence crosses with the witnesses. Probably dismissed that and focused on what most likely happened. Which appears to be she hit him accidentally.
@@philmccracken2534No evidence of him being beaten to death.
@@crippledalien5937 Watch the video I linked and then come back here and say that again. There is indisputable evidence that he was beaten to death. Are we talking about the same trial? How can you say that?
First!!!