@@robatkinson2125 Not according to IMDb he is not it’s like calling Michael Brandon British when he’s from New York and Lester only holds an Uk visa that his nationality is American
There was a deleted scene where Lex and Zod and the others were escorted out of the fortress of solitude (which can be found online) and for some reason neither cut has that scene. Not only is that my favorite deleted scene from the movie but it also makes much more sense, especially when I just realized Lex is still inside when Superman blows the damn thing up lol
They did not have accessible software for fans in 1980. Donner has credit for laying the foundation but perhaps as an accident, part 2 ended up pretty good
There was a fan called Selutron, who was making his own version. He put clips of his own special effects online. I don’t know what happened to it; it looked really good and far better than the professionals.
I keep hoping against hope a Blu-Ray release of that cut will happen. I mean we got the 3 hour cut of the first Superman movie on Blu-Ray, so who knows?
@@michaelinlofi A friend recorded the international cut for me on a blank d.v.d. I've had it for 4 or 5 years. I hope it does get a OFFICIAL home video release like ''PART 1''. I have the Donner cut. The main problem with the film is the editing. Really sloppy. Out of all 3 versions, as i said before, the international cut is the best version.
@@georgeharris9873yes!! The “International Cut” is the “best of all possible worlds” version of Superman II. The movie in that form is truly a masterpiece.
Agree 100%!! "General, would you care to step outside?" is perhaps my favorite line from any Superman movie, and when Donner replaced that is when I realized he was intent on just being as different as possible, regardless of whether it worked or not. That line captures Superman perfectly, and works as an emotional call back to when he says it to the bully in the diner, proving that, powers or no powers, he's still the same boy scout. That was a HUGE cheering moment in the theater when I saw it back in the day.
The Donner cut isn't a finished film but a mishmash of the theatrical cut, deleted scenes, screen tests, and reused footage from the ending of Superman: The Movie. There are some great scenes in it, like all the Brando stuff and the footage Donner shot for Daily Planet, which Lester replaced with the Niagara Falls stuff. I think Donner is a better director than Lester, but the theatrical cut is better.
The Richard Donner cut in my opinion never should’ve been released. I said this for a few reasons. Number one clearly, Warner Bros didn’t really care about it because the budget was incredibly cheap. Some of the effects shots they used were embarrassingly awful. Number two I think it’s clear Richard Donner really didn’t have a great recollection of all the footage that he shot. Because frankly he should’ve been embarrassed by some of it..
I disagree. The Donner cut shows what could have been. You can't judge the movie on the basis of not being complete, because it was not completed. Donner would have 20% more footage to shoot including a new ending. About the effects: I think they did a good enough job to match the technology of the 80s.
Superman 1&2 were shot together except for the the Lester reshoots and his original material. Donner using footage from what appears to be the first film is open for interpretation because he was forced into the cutting the 1st film the way it was done (including, using the planned ending for the 2nd film to be used as the ending for the first film). If he showed footage from there in this film, it's because that's what he originally intended the 2nd film to have
I agree. Had he allowed a little more Lester footage into his movie (such as all of East Houston), I don't think I'd have been as hard on this cut. But chopping out East Houston really screws with the Donner Cut's pacing
@@michaelinlofi It was pretty disappointing to see this as a wasted endeavor in 2006 when it first came out. All us fans essentially wanted was the Restored International Cut with the Brando scenes restored, but Michael Thau couldn’t get that right. This along with the dismal Superman Returns was really rough to see the character get the justice he deserved.
@@kamdan2011 The Vudu digital cut is about as close as you'll get to that. The East Houston scenes are still in there. And as a bonus scene treat, Non killing the boy by throwing the siren is edited back in. Women: He was only a boy! Ursa: Who will never become a man!
WRONG. He didn't even put together "The Donner Cut" Michael Thau had access to Donner's footage in the Warner vault, and this project is just an attempted "what if" for fans to get a glimpse of footage they thought they'd never see. It was NEVER supposed to be a serious director's cut alternative film to the theatrical version. The Donner Cut is just a fun side project. It IS a glorified fan edit, but with access to some unseen Donner footage.
Donner Cut was an amusing curiosity, but it was a patched together Frankenstein job with lousy digital fx. I just lol when people say they find the Donner Cut superior.
I think Donner’s Superman II is still meant to be part of an “origin story”, what with Superman still being young and making a rushed foolish decision, hence his bratty demeanor and rebelliousness. Lester’s film has Superman being active for at least a year or two, and he’s been slowly falling for Lois in more ways than just his “can you read my mind” adventure that swept both of them into a fast romance. His conversation with his mother is sweet because he feels as though he’s really found the one. While In Donner’s film, Superman feels like he’s owed for saving the world. Donner made a tragedy while Lester made a Romantic adventure.
Honestly even before getting into technical details the Donner Cut has a couple of huge fundamental problems right out of the gate: 1. It's a sequel to an alternate Superman 1 that does not exist. Without it the intended "Superman defies his father and interferes in the course of human history for the better because he is indeed human at heart" theme is simply not there, both because it's not referenced at all in the sequel itself and because the Superman 1 that DOES exist has already resolved that arc. So the tradeoff in Jor-El giving Supes his powers back ("You were wrong about this - I was wrong about that") becomes "Superman needs to be bailed out by daddy and we'll all pretend none of this ever happened." 2. The Superman 1 that exists did a better job with that theme anyway. Isolating the Jor-El arc to the first film makes it way more focused and satisfying. "Lois is dead! But dad said I can't interfere with human development. Screw it, I am human!" is way more direct without getting muddled in dissonance with "But dad also insists I have a responsibility to save humanity." And also makes it easy for us to connect Lois's death with Pa Kent's death ("I couldn't save him") and with it the subtext that Superman has decided that Pa is his "real" father. So the Superman II theatrical cut (the film that actually exists) takes the opportunity to focus on a story about Superman learning to navigate his free will. There is no argument with dad, instead there is a mature discussion with mom. He is not "wrong" to forsake his powers, he has changed his mind and wants them back. He is not saved by his parents; he had inadvertently saved himself by moving the green crystal away from the crystalline machine before it self-destructed. He does not reverse time to undo his mistakes; he only erases the memory of Lois's heartache because he loves her enough to let her go. It's a story about Superman figuring out what he truly wants in life.
I've never understood why fan boys cream their jeans over the Donner cut. The editing and pacing in the middle section of the film is really uneven, the appearance of the actors varies even more from scene to scene than the theatrical version, the re-inserted scenes look like sitcom sets, and the ending is totally puzzling and redundant if you're a new viewer. Recommending this version to newcomers is a huge mistake.
It's because Lester and the Salkinds ruined the film franchise much how Joss Whedon and WB execs ruined the justice League movie....unfortunately Donner didn't have a choice but to throw in scenes that had already been shot because it had been almost 30 years and the film and tech used to make it were dated asf..calling ppl fanboys because they wanted to see a shimmer of what could have been is subjective because it comes from a place of privilege.. Lester got to finish his film....Donner got to edit his film
The original cut overall is better and brings the story full circle. The would you care to step out line with Zod and Rocky mirror one around. As well as Superman/Clark making Zod/Rocky thinking both getting a feeling of victory before both of them loosing. Not to mention the music!
As much as I don't like this cut overall, I'm glad we got it because all the footage is quite fascinating, and a lot of it is great, it just doesn't come together. Side-note: That extended version of the Donner cut on streaming includes the bit where Non kills the kid with the police car light from the TV cut.
Finally - I thought I was the only one who preferred the theatrical/Lester cut. Agree with you almost note for note. Like others have said - I can really only view the Donner Cut as an experiment - deleted scenes mix. The scene I missed the most by far in the Donner Cut was the heartbreaking part where Lois explains her pain to Clark right before he erases her memory. Then to listen to the Donner cut commentary where it seems he bashes the Salkinds every 5 minutes. Honestly I think both Donner and Lester are talented. More amazingly I think its amazing the theatrical cut of part II was as coherent as it was given the turmoil. I can get past the stupid toupee/Phonebooth gags - its so fleeting. I think the Whitehouse attack & The Kryptonian trial are about the only things I like better in the Donner cut.
@@theunknowncommenter725 Not really. If there WAS a real Donner cut, it definitely would have been. But there isn't. Just a very approximate recreation. Besides, Lester's forte is comedy. Always has been. And since Lester wasn't as invested in the Superman legend as Donner was -- which Lester admitted - he fell back on his strengths. Which doesn't work very well for Superman -- definitely proven in Superman III.
@@theunknowncommenter725even though superman went back to the diner to get retribution against rocky after superman turned back time to before the initial encounter making it completely unnecessary?
I think a lot of people missed the fact that "Godfather" author Mario Puzo wrote the Story and Script for Superman 1 & 2 and how he is much a big influence on the Movie as much as Donner or Lester is. His absence from the Re-cut Donner version greatly impairs the cohesive vision of the planned original 2 movies.
In the Donner cut the film isn't finished. PERIOD The special affects aren't finished, and are scenes that weren't filmed and thats why Donner added screen test footage to fill in the gaps.
While i still think that both versions are inferior to the first 1978 movie i do think some of the reshoots are better. I dont mind superman 2 but i do think the first movie is much better.
I feel much the same way. I have a concept of a video on that very topic, but I have to actually string it out into a coherent shape before I write it out
I would agree as well. I would keep most of the Lester stuff, but add the Donner Krypton scene, The Donner cuts of the moon scene, the small town scenes, Lex's escape from prison, the fortress scenes, Zod's attack on the White House, John Williams score, and the Metropolis battle. Lester stuff would be the Paris terrorism, opening. The Niagra scenes (I just can't go for screen test footage) the magic kiss, the Clark rematch with the bully, and Superman repairing the White House and renewing his pledge to protect humanity. It also seemed to make more sense where Clark sleeps with Lois after being stripped of his powers in the Lester version vs sleeping with her first in the Donner version. The Donner version showed he could be intimate with a human women as a superpowered Kryptonian. It seemed to suggest that he wanted to get rid of his powers just to avoid the burden of responsibilty of being Superman. The Lester version seemed to suggest Clark wan't to get rid of his powers, out of wanting to be able to phyiscally love Lois without killing her.
The purpose of the Paris terrorists was to establish that Superman II took place at least a year or two, if even more, than Superman. This would make more sense as it explained Lois’ recklessness (being rescued by Superman is now a habit) and her suspicion on Clark never being seen with Superman.
Margot looked sooo much better when directed by Donner. Her hair in Lester’s film looks totally different from shot to shot, and it looks like a hairstyle from the 1950’s!
That's because Donner shot 1&2 at the same time. Most of 2 was done before WB gave the order to push the first one out in time for Xmas 78, and they abandoned work on 2 and put all resources & focus on finishing 1 ASAP.
Not related to margot but its about the hair lol. Zod looked better in the Lester cut with his slightly longer at the back and slightly greyer hair. The screen test scene where clark gets shot looks more way off than any of the other stuff combined. Both of em.
I agree. I feel like, especially with the 3 hour 8 minute rendition of Superman: The Movie, we get plenty of Jor -El/Kal-El interactions. I love that Superman II(Lester) gives some time to Kal-El’s relationship with Lara, his Kryptonian mother.
Donner cut has some highlights for sure, but it's not what I'd consider a complete film, and I find the performances to be more stilted and stiffer than the Lester cut. It's a great "What if", but IMO not a serous contender for which ones is better. Theatrical > Donner cut.
I don’t like “The Richard Donner Cut” neither. It’s cool to see the extra scenes, but I still prefer the original by Richard Lester. Even if it wasn’t originally planned for him to direct it.
A hybrid cut of the best parts of both films would be the solution. Similar to the extended tv version but with the Brando scenes incorporated. Lesters beginning and ending, Donners extended White House scene and Fortress of Solitude ending. Take out all the bad gags and terrible 2006 effects - then hey presto.
If there's one thing about me and Superman movies, it's that I will defend people's right to love Superman III. I know by all technical measures it's not a very good movie, but I never not have a good time watching it. It's just fun
That's very kind of you to say! I do have plans to review Superman III, and I have an idea as to how to approach it, but I have a couple other videos I want to get out first
Brilliant analysis and I agreed 100% with every point you made. Like you, I'm also puzzled by those who insist the Donner Cut is the superior version. As you say, it's not a film in its own right, despite the marketing. I think of it as a DVD extra at best. I have huge respect for Richard Donner and his incredible first film but have real issues with the way this would have gone. No Superman heroics for quite some time (there was a foxhunting scene in the original script but hardly the stuff of big drama), a Lois Lane who is definitely unhinged and the hideous turning back the world solution to every imaginable problem. In the commentary to this, I thought Donner came across badly, even quite arrogant in places, slating pretty much everything Richard Lester did. One thing nobody ever seems to mention is the awful 'blood' make-up on Christopher Reeve when he returns to the Fortress - it looks like someone just brushed on some bright red paint.
I can't say I've had a listen to the commentary of the Donner cut. Might have to do so at some point. But in general I agree with your sentiments about Donner - I have nothing but respect for him and his work, because he is a great director, but all the same this cut of the movie is not his best work. I did notice that the bruising makeup on Clark's face wasn't particularly convincing, but I wasn't sure it was worth bringing up. But yes, it's not very good. It was a lot more convincing in Lester's restaging, though that might be something to do with the lights being down and the shadows hiding any problems with it.
Having read that script, I rolled my eyes at the Fox Hunting scene. I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have done it. Although the turning back time ending sequence in the Donner Cut is under the idea that the turning back time sequence didn't happen in Superman: The Movie.
I'm glad this video exists, because it outlines so many of my problems with this version of the film. Yes, Donner got screwed, but it seems to me that people who called this version better are too blinded by what happened all those years ago to step back and see this version for what it truly is: shoddily put together and done without understanding the positive qualities of the theatrical version.
I think most would agree that Lester’s is better mainly because the Donner cut had a direct to video-like effort to finish it. And a lot was just unfinishable in the first place unless they recast the actors or used CGI to recreate Reeve and company.
Nahh I prefer it. I can forgive it's failings for being 4/5s of a film and for having to redo things to comply with regulations to be able to claim directorial ownership doesn't bother me. Glad to have seen what potentially could have been.
In the international cut of the film I'm not sure who added it Lester or Donner .you see police showing up and arresting Luther and I believe the Kryptonian villains. I'm guessing it was something Lester shot otherwise Donner probably would have put it back in.
It was definitely shot by Donner. Gene Hackman refused to return for reshoots when Lester took over, so in the theatrical cut they had to sort of edit around that. Which in all fairness, they did a pretty decent job at for the most part. So you're right, that last bit where everyone got arrested should have been in there
I have videos on the 1978 original and the theatrical cut, but will summarize here. Love love love the 1978 original. Golden film for sure. I also have a lot of love for the theatrical cut of Superman II. It's flawed obviously, but I grew up with that cut and it still feels more complete to me than this cut. Superman III is a mess, but I never have a bad time watching it. It's just fun, even if it's kinda bad. And I haven't seen The Quest for Peace yet. Can't bring myself to watch that one to be honest
@@michaelinlofi The Quest For Peace had good intentions, but its budget cuts are VERY apparent. I loved it as a child but I realize now that is because it is almost like a cartoon. A few years ago I saw a lot of deleted footage which could have arguably helped, but it was extremely cheesy especially with the first Nuclear Man who was cut entirely from the final cut. It's sad just how botched this entire franchise became. I agree with Donner in the documentary that had he stayed on, the trajectory of this franchise would've been quite different--for the better.
Donner had filmed both movies but because he didn't trust the Salkinds, he took the ending for part two and used it for the first movie. The Salkinds were notoriously cheap and wouldn't pay Donner or Brando. Lester was brought on reshoot some scenes to get credit. Hackman and Brando didn't return.
This Salkind/Donner debacle reminds me of a saying, 'A restaurant owner should not tell the head Chef how to cook, if he is preparing food according to a menu for the customers'. What culinary school did the restaurant owner attend 😅 🤔 ? ? ?
There is one! There was a special cut made for TV syndication, which is about 15 or 20 minutes longer than the Lester cut and it included a bunch of scenes like that Arctic police scene. I did consider bringing it up in this video or my video on the Lester cut, but I couldn't think of much to say about it at the time. It will however be important in another Superman II related video I have plans for
If you don't like the Ms Tessmacher finding the toilet in the fortress scene you won't like the version on Vudu. It's implied the super shitter killed her, she flushes and we hear an almighty scream.
@@michaelinlofi I doubt it was Donner. I actually think he got Thau to take it out. The reason for the difference in version streaming in vudu is that they sent the almost final version to them by mistake. There is a little bit extra Brando dialogue with lex, then the loo gag. The scene with the kid getting exploded is there, some other minor alterations. Donner likely told them to cut all that shit out before he signed off on it, then the error was made sending the earlier version to Vudu. Michael Thau has denied this in interview but all the evidence points to him being mistaken.
@@faneditedbybooshman Yeah, really. Between Thau and Donner, there was a denial going on there where Donner was too salty about keeping the Lester scenes. How these streaming services got these extra scenes kind of had to be from a mistake.
I agree completely. Superman 2 has always been one of my favorite sequels of all time,and I never thought it was anything but a seemless next chapter to the original which is a masterpiece. Superman 2 in many cases is a more entertaining watch due to the pacing and the focus on the villains. I understand that showing Donners intent was interesting and a good tribute to a great director. But it just didn't work for alot of the reasons you mentioned. But also because Superman 2 is so iconic and was so successful at what it did.
I don’t like that they had to compromise so much due to like 30% of the Donner footage not existing and the lack of any new Williams music since he never scored Superman II. Plus the bad dubbing and the occasional use of body doubles in new footage like Lois at the typewriter. Things like the original Phantom Zone escape should have been left alone other than showing the missile causing it, the CGI and space footage looked so cheap.
Yeah, I made the huge mistake of watching the Donner Cut as a first time viewer of the Superman movie series. It was a mess, a terrible viewing experience. Sure, there are parts that are good, the stuff with Supes and Lois at the beginning was good, but it was clearly an unfinished movie and wasn't fun to watch. My friend and I were watching all the Superman movies since we hadn't seen them before and we both reacted pretty badly to the Donner Cut. We ended up putting on the theatrical and it was a much more enjoyably coherant experience. I totally get the value of the Donner cut. I completely agree that the studio fucked up by firing Donner and making a mess of all his Superman movie plans. It should have been Donner all the way. And I think if you're a big fan of the films, you should go watch the Donner Cut and enjoy it. Just don't ever try and push it as a REPLACEMENT for the theatrical cut, because it is not. It is a piece of history, an interesting relic, but not a coherent film in its own right.
The Donner Cut never was pushed that way. It was always said that it was a bonus for the fans who thought they would never see what Donner shot, or intended. Once some of his unseen footage was discovered in the Warner Vault, it was decided to throw together the best attempt then possible with the tiny budget WB allotted to treat fans and capitalize on Superman Returns being new at the time. It's essentially a big bonus feature. Nobody at the time took it as a serious alternate version of the established theatrical film, and Donner didn't even have much actual involvement in it. Michael Thau was in charge of the whole project.
you are a bit thick when it comes to the gun shot scene...that fact that it did not hurt him made him give himself away...lois outsmarted him...he could not just say the bullet missed because he would have to explain where the bullet landed instead......keep learning kid
What? A movie involving Superman where the original director was let go and another director was brought in who added a bunch of unnecessary comedy bits and the original director was able to edit and release his cut years later? No way.
You never made a follow up video where you talk about what you would've done for a combine cut ending; I went looking for that right after. Do you think that's still in the cards some day?
Sure is! Part of why that's not happened yet is I straight up lost the Premiere Elements file my rough draft edit was in thanks to a computer crash. So I intend to do it this year but it means a back to square one approach
The part about Lois Lane jumping out of a high-wise window to prove Clark Kent was Superman was too hard to accept. Lester’s version of that scene made more sense.
I ended up making my own cut of this film by taking my favourite scenes from both versions, plus a few deleted scenes and editing them together myself.
Considering the movie was only 70% complete when Donner was sacked, of course it wasn't a complete film. A third of the film is missing, and they stole his Superman 2 ending to use in the ending of the first Superman movie. Considering those handicaps, it's amazing he had enough to work with at all....and it's pretty amazing that 70% of the Donner version is comparable to 100% of the Lester cut.
They did not stole anything donner decided that for budget reasons they needed to concentrate on superman 1 and they decided to put the ending of superman 2 on superman 1 and then come up with a new ending for 2. Of course that did not happened because donner was fired.
As a complete film, the theatrical cut is obviously superior. But the White House attack, a more serious Metropolis battle, and a far more intelligent final showdown in the fortress of Solitude edge the Donner cut for me.
Perfectly understandable. One of my future video projects is to write out a guide to the perfect Superman II cut, so I'll have more to say on those elements... Whenever I remember how to write
Good video, I agree with you, I prefer the original cut. I like Donner's but it's weirdly edited together, and I much prefer Ken Thorne's soundtrack for this film.
I agree with most of your points. I got irritated when I watched the last scene of Clark bullying an innocent guy in the diner. I honestly thought I just didn't understand, or I missed something. Thank you! Love this video.
I said in the Superman 2 video that I personally enjoy both cuts of the movie, after watching that video I kinda change my mind on that statement to where I lean more towards the Lester Cut; but I think there’s some stuff in the Donner Cut that is better than certain stuff in the Lester cut in my personal opinion, but I definitely see some of your points. I definitely want to see that video about your Ideal Cut of Superman 2, but I think that should be after your Superman 3 video. Anyways, that was a Great Video and I can’t wait for the Superman 3 video.
Thanks for the comments! Ironically Superman IV might be the hardest one to talk about because it's extremely obvious why it sucks. I might try and go at it at the angle of what Reeve's intention was for it and how badly he got screwed, but I'll have to watch it in its entirety before I'm sure
I actually like the Richard Lester way, Lois finds out about Clark for a few reasons. Most importantly though, jumping out of a multi-story window in the middle of a work day, is simply too public. There is no way Lois would been able to return to work. She would have been carted off to a hospital for psychiatric evaluation, her career would have been over. At least when Lois jumps into Niagara Falls, Clark is the ONLY witness.
Now to be completely fair to this movie, Clark also jumps out of a window in the first one and nobody seems to notice. But all the same I agree with you
Agree with a vast majority of your assessment. I have great love for II as-is. But in the realm of wish fulfillment, I think there is a 65% theatrical release - 35% Donner Cut that hits the sweet spot. And essential is keeping Superman flying up to the Daily Planet window for the "Step outside.." moment exactly as it is in the theatrical release.
I still never could get over how jarring Lois/Margot looks between the Donner and Lester cuts. Now I've noticed the difference in how Sarah Douglas/Ursa looks between the cuts too...Once you notice it, you can't un-see it.
Dude...this WAS a glimpse into what Dick Donner's vision was. It's not a definitive cut! How can it be? They use Lester's shot scenes so it's somehow watchable. As for editing they only had a small budget. A small team...they decided early on not to use CGI companies for modern day (2005) CGI. Everything you don't like they are all well aware of. This wasn't a $90 million post-production of ZSJL. It's just a representation of the movie makers original vision. Made possible by the death of Marlon Brando. WB finally bought the footage from his estate for the Superman Returns movie.
This is pretty much exactly my point. The problem was it was sold to me by both Donner's claims of what it was and fans in general to be something it wasn't. Take a scroll in the comments of any given Superman II video, you'll find at least one person claiming the Donner Cut to be the better, more complete film. The result was that when I watched it, I could not have been more disappointed with what I got
@@michaelinlofi I never had that impression. I knew what it was before I watched it. I may have missed the marketing you saw. But I went into it knowing I was going to see a 'frankenstein' movie. There no doubt Dick Donner's movie would have been superior.
I mean maybe, but some of the things I took issue with in Donner's vision still stand regardless of the state of the cut, ie. my problems with how Clark seems very self absorbed in his conversation with Jor-El about becoming human, Lois' plan with the gun, etc. But much of that comes more down to personal taste than anything I suppose
I'll keep it real with you, if the Donner Cut fans strike you as a cult you've not met the group of people who truly believe that Zack Snyder directed the best Superman movie ever and type restorethesnyderverse on posts related to the death of other celebrities. Now that's a cult
Thanks! I actually found my old Premiere file I was doing the rough draft in, so I might have a skeleton for a video on that thought experiment... soon. Can't promise a release date, but it's coming along!
I've always enjoyed the theatrical version . The Donner cut would have been better if we could have just saw his version made when he was supposed to make it.b rather than the cut and paste version we got
This is a good analysis. I thought I'd watch this (along with the Caravan of Garbage analysis) before renting the Richard Donner cut, and from what I can see, there's no way the Richard Donner cut should be classified as an alternative full movie! As you mentioned, Richard Donner never even came close to completing the movie, so how can it be his alternative cut? I was horrified to see that they actually filled scenes with 21st century CGI, and cheap and nasty at that, to make it look like 70s lol. Yes, it looks like the kind of "extra" footage or "special" you would have as part of a DVD or Blueray release. It would be far more appropriate to have it labelled along the lines of: 'The making of Superman II: Richard Donner's original and alternate scenes and edits', or something... What a joke releasing it as an actual alternate movie cut, especially when the ending makes no sense in the grand scheme of things. It's like a big movie plot hole blooper they rightly deleted for the second film and more appropriately used for the first was just added back in.. lol. How does it get 86% positive audience reviews on Rotten Tomatoes? A bit surprised that this cut, released as an actual movie, was even legal. The "new" version had me fooled for a second, until I saw this! Cheers.
Another part that I found odd Superman, and Lois made love before Superman gave up his powers in The Donner Cut. Yeah I thought it would be dangerous of Superman to have sex with a mortal woman due to his super strength. But yeah in Superman III Superman had sex with Lorelei and he obviously didn’t hurt her.
@@matthewkrankka7398 And this is where Superman Returns gets really muddied with Lois' child. If it's based off of Lester's cut, Jon wouldn't have powers due to Clark being depowered before his conception. If it's based on Donner's cut, he wouldn't have been born at all as he was conceived when Clark had his powers but he turned back time and didn't sleep with Lois.
Donner barely had anything to do with the actual editing of his cut. It was cobbled together by Michael Thau. Thats part of the reason for the crummy CG effects.
That was actually the weirdest thing that I learned about this cut while researching this video, that he only got involved halfway through the editing process. Such a bizarre set up for a cut that's supposed to represent his vision
I think its because it had been years and years and a lot of false starts. Thau pretty much embarked on the project because of fan outcry and intermittant interest from Donner.
@@michaelinlofi I've heard that had Donner himself didn't get involved later on, then Thau would've utilised a bit more of the Lester Footage (including the Amnesia Kiss Ending).
Genuinely not sure. I think it would go something along the lines of (from worst to best) Man of Steel, Returns, III, I, II. I can't count IV yet because I have not seen it
@@michaelinlofiI think IV is awful. As an extreme fan of the series, I STILL 😂 find a way to like it. No spoilers, but I recommend watching it to make up your own mind about it.
hated the Donner cut, other than Jor El being added back to the intro scene. Thanks for making all these points, as I am baffled how anyone can like this version which is a complete mess and makes no sense especially at the end
Lol...most of the Donner Cut followers weren't even born when the original was released. Fact is there was nothing wrong with the theatrical version from lester. I saw it just out of high school and it was a smash it. the humor and the romance is what made it work in the first place. Donner cut is unnecessary garbage like having fans on RUclips make their own version it's ridiculous.
@@michaelinlofi Lol... it was a great time. graduated that year.this movie struck a chord with my age group. The romance the humor everything just worked. Saw the movie 4 times just for the reaction in the theater. It had the same impact on my generation as Iron man had on this generation. everything just worked for its time. Because I experienced the original release the Donner Cut looks stupid to me.
@@michaelinlofi yea . perfectly placed in the movie. One of those movies where you throw dice up in the air and whether its planned or not they land on perfect 7's over and over. Had a huge impact on the 18 to 30 something crowd a lot of couples. The romance and the humor with just the right amount of testosterone scenes to get guys pumped.when he threw zod into the Coca-Cola sign place erupted And yea I get jokes that worked 40 years ago may not work with this generation. but they did work then because it was a different time.We laughed at all of them and the special effects at the time where state of the art. That movie was the benchmark for superhero movies well into the 80,s and had a huge impact on the release of burton's batman attempting to fill the void left by superman 2
The Jor-El (Brando) scenes made better sense, however some stuff like the Paris rescue, Niagara Falls/Lois incidents like her jumping in the water and his hand falling in the fire, and the desecration of Mt. Rushmore scenes should have been left in. Was happy they removed the “Forget Everything Kiss” & the plastic “S” Emblem scene out. Some other scenes I can try to think of more, but those at the top of my head I can think of
I bought the Donnor cut on DVD when it first came out, mainly out of curiosity. I thought it was better, definitely more serious, than the original, but I also felt the same way as you. Thought it was more of a shout out to the fans than an actual good movie. There were some scenes where Reeve's hair and physique just didn't match the rest of the film. Was obvious everything was pasted together.
@@maximusprime3459 The one most jarring to me was the one in the Fortress where he talks to Jor-El and holds out his arms towards his father. Reeves had really scrawny looking arms when they shot that scene.
Absolutely. When Christopher Reeve came back to finish the second movie, he was a good 20 pounds heavier mostly muscle than when he started in some of the earlier footage that was shot.
@@dbreiden83080Most of Superman 2 was shot at the same time as Superman: The Movie which Reeve gained nearly 30 lbs of muscle for. Anything with him looking thinner is likely from screen test/rehearsal footage, or scenes shot very early on in the schedule.
@@burntvirtue He is more bulked up in the Lester scenes which he came back to shoot in Sept of 79.. Larger than he was for the Donner scenes.. They actually re-shot roughly 50% of the movie..
Once again great work Michael 👍🏻💪🏼. Your attention to detail and your way of putting it all together for us the audience is very impressive. It‘s obvious you have not only a deep understanding and passion for Superman but for Movie making (and editing) in general. It‘s always great to watch videos like this, made by people like you that have great love and appreciation for the magic of movies and movie making 👍🏻
I didn't know either until halfway through writing this, so that little bit where I explained that was one of my more last minute additions to this video not gonna lie
@@michaelinlofi So I bought the Amazon version and really didn't pick up many differences. This cut is still a disjointed mess. One scene I noticed (and compared to the DVD to be sure) is in the Midwest town. Zod declares that nobody is allowed to leave. The kid in the overalls runs away and hops on his horse and gallops away. Zod then turns to Non and says, "I said no one leaves!" Non then throws the cop car light down the road which explodes and kills the kid. Ursa then gleefully says, "he will never be a man!" Yikes that is dark. I can see why it was omitted originally. Guess Donner decided to put it back in after the fact.
I notice that the little violin piece that begins the discussion of the musical score is actually taken from the score of ‘Arabian Adventure’, which was also scored by Ken Thorne. An ironic choice.
That was actually completely unintentional. The music here is from Korsakov's Scheherazade suite, as played in an episode of Leverage. The suite is based on the Arabian tale of a ruler whose wife (Scheherazade) tells a story every night for one thousand and one nights. It's a pretty popular composition, so I daresay Thorne referenced it for Arabian Adventure. As for why I picked it as the intro for the musical discussion... I now have absolutely no idea. I think I just wanted to sneak a Leverage reference into the video. So I am highly amused that it somehow managed to connect to Thorne in the end
It's NOT a "definitive cut". Not at all. It was never supposed to be. Where did you get that?! It was always said that this was just an attempt at using the newly discovered Donner footage in the context of the full story. A special treat for longtime fans who thought they'd never get to see this Donner footage.
The simple answer is the internet. Fans of the Donner cut in comments sections had spoken of it as if it were supposed to be definitive. Hell, movies and spin off comic books regard the Donner cut as canon. So going into it I'd been given the impression it was a Snyder cut level recut
Maybe but that digital Superman punch on NON was epic , did the version you have also use the arm wrestling match in the beginning ? I thought that was a cool way to slowly bring the menace threat as an introduction slamming the guy down through the table .
The firing of Donner didn't happen the way you described. Richard Lester was already brought in by the Salkinds as a "go-between" during the finishing of SUPERMAN (1978) as tensions rose with Donner and the Salkinds, and everyone could basically tell that Lester was being groomed as a replacement to finish SUPERMAN II once the producers could find an excuse to finally fire Donner. It happened, and Lester finished SUPERMAN II. Lastly, Guy Hamilton was the original director for SUPERMAN (1978) and had to leave the project due to being unable to film in England. Donner then took over and scrapped all Hamilton's pre-production. He was never considered beyond that point, since they were filming at Pinewood Studios.
Eh to me both cuts have their own problems. The Lester cut I honestly only liked the three Kryptonians stuff. I thought Lester went a little too far with the humor and that some of the new powers sup and the trio got were weird. That being said the Donner cut isn’t great either. It feels unpolished cause it is. The cut seems at least to me that WB wanted this thing out on the cheap so they had to make due with the budget they had. Because of that the effects look bad. Then as far as the test footage I realize and agree it’s not that great but it’s the closest they could do to what Donner wanted. I try not to look at the Donner cut as a movie per se but instead a pitch for a movie that could have been made. It’s rough around the edges, there are problems with pace BUT ya get a drift on what the movie could have been if Donner would have been able to complete it. Between that movie that never was and the Lester cut I have a feeling from the rough frankensteined movie that is the Donner cut that his version of the theatrical movie would have been better. Sadly we will never know for sure.
I think the point of the Donner cut was just to give us an idea of what his version would have looked like had he stayed on the project. But for some reason it has replaced the Lester cut as the official Superman II.
Well I would Disagree on the argument about showing it to someone first as I showed my brother this version without showing him the theatrical version and he had no issue with it. Some with some freinds non of them even thought it didn’t feel like a movie. So I think I it still works as a film
I appreciate this perspective. I've had people take both sides on that particular point - some say it worked as a first viewing of Superman II, some say it didn't. It's as subjective as anything else, I suppose
I mostly just wanted to be honest here. I wanted to like this cut, but I remember my first thought after finishing it being something to the effect of "I don't get it"
The release of the Donner Cut was what got me into fan-edits back in late 2006. I've seen probably 30 different edits of this film that various editors like myself have taken a crack at. One of which still puts edits on his YT channel rarely. He does animation to try and create entirely new shots too. We've all dissected this flick and all the footage from all 3 versions (I'm including the tv broadcast version) to death lol. There's an editor who called himself "Selutron" and he posted about a dozen edits of this flick himself back in 2006 when the Donner Cut was first released (It's what got me interested in fan edits as well). These edits are still here on YT too and I strongly suggets fans seek them out. As for the streaming version that's 5 minutes longer, here's what's put back in or added: The ENTIRE East Houston Idaho rampage scene is restored (including Non killing a boy who tries to escape), the soufle' scene (another scene only available in the tv broadcast and on the deleted scenes sections) and when Miss Teschmaker flushes the toilet, we hear her SCREAM and it fades away (guess she suffers the same fate as the villains at the end). Lex smiles and says "She found it". There's probably a few others but those were the 3 big takeaways I can remember.
Many years ago, I recorded Superman 2 on TV and surprisingly there was a few scenes from the Donner cut mixed with the Lester movie, and it was really a nice movie. Some of the scenes that was included was Lex and Otis in jail , Superman destroying the Fortress, well most of what you described.
Ah yes, the cut that is largely known now as the Restored International Cut. I really badly wanted to talk about that cut in both this and my video on the original Lester cut, but outside of a reference to the scene where Non kills the kid in East Houston I've never found the right place for that section. Perhaps when I make my video on "the hypothetical perfect Superman II cut" I'll finally address it
Obviously this can’t be viewed as a complete movie, because it is peiced together, there are pros and cons to both, like I did much prefer Lester’s “general, would you care to step outside” lone better that Donners “have you ever heard of freedom of the press” line, but I preferred a lot on Donners stuff over Lester’s, like Jor-el belongs in the fortress, not Lara, I just think Donner knows how to treat Superman better since he’s actually a fanboy, as apposed to Lester who could care a less about the character, it’s a paycheck for him, not a passion like it was with Donner
That's all entirely fair. The other thing that I didn't bring up is that the freedom of the press line is very clearly ADRd in by a voice actor who is not Christopher Reeve. Very weird
I believe both of those lines were filmed by donner, donner just used a different cut to differ his movie from Lester’s, you can tell it was shot by Donner because Superman still has his hair curl which is absent in the Lester footage.
Actually, "would you care to step outside" was shot by Lester. The giveaway is in the backdrop of Metropolis outside the window - the Lester footage has a different (and for my money, worse) backdrop, and it's that backdrop behind Superman for the step outside line
@@michaelinlofi They actually did a very good job if it was indeed ADRd in, it honestly sounds exactly like him, and reminds me of when he said "bad vibrations". In the 78 movie. However it is also entirely possible that it was recorded previously. Also, I noticed that there was a clever dub when superman said "I'm not a coward zod" in the donner cut, I don't know why they needed the ADR there, they had the line from the lester cut.
Another problem with the time travel ending is why didn’t Superman just do that to put the Kryptonian criminals back into the Phantom Zone BEFORE fighting them and then luring then to the fortress to have their powers erased? He could have solved the problem to begin with by just turning back time.
You gotta admit, though, there was that moment when Jor-El's hologram glowers up at Lois while Superman is losing his powers, there's a certain weight to it that wasn't there before
As a blue ray extra it's certainly a nice thing to have as a historical curio, but yeah, this is not really some definitive version of Superman II. And really all in all if I had a personal version of this film it would probably end up being one minute less Lester stuff replaced by one minute of Donner stuff
Same. The Lester version of the Kryptonian trial would be first on my hit list, for example. But narratively it would pretty much follow the Lester cut
After watching this video, I agree the Donner cut has it’s problem, but it also has it highlights, like the fight between Zod and Superman, and the Marlo footage , and Lois and Superman relationship, however the Original film has a lot of problems, insert scenes, bad visuals, and a cringy fight at the fortress of solitude. However I think the donner cut is better, but can be the best if someone were to re-edit the film and fix the problems.
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Clarification Richard Lester isn’t British he’s American that was based in the United Kingdom.
Cheers for said clarification, mate. I bestow on you the highest honour I know: pinned so everyone can see my mistake
Richard lester was British
Sorry but he was English
@@robatkinson2125 nope, he was American. I googled to be sure, dear old Rich was born in Philadelphia
@@robatkinson2125
Not according to IMDb he is not it’s like calling Michael Brandon British when he’s from New York and Lester only holds an Uk visa that his nationality is American
Lester’s transition from Clark to Superman in a back alley is the most comic book accurate of ALL the movies.
There was a deleted scene where Lex and Zod and the others were escorted out of the fortress of solitude (which can be found online) and for some reason neither cut has that scene. Not only is that my favorite deleted scene from the movie but it also makes much more sense, especially when I just realized Lex is still inside when Superman blows the damn thing up lol
I thought i was the only one. Donner cut was rushed...almost like they didnt care. Effects were horrible. A fan wouldve done a much better job
Lester's version is better
They did not have accessible software for fans in 1980. Donner has credit for laying the foundation but perhaps as an accident, part 2 ended up pretty good
There was a fan called Selutron, who was making his own version. He put clips of his own special effects online. I don’t know what happened to it; it looked really good and far better than the professionals.
The INTER-NATIONAL TV CUT will always be the best version. The extra 19 minutes made it much better compared to the theatrical cut.
I keep hoping against hope a Blu-Ray release of that cut will happen. I mean we got the 3 hour cut of the first Superman movie on Blu-Ray, so who knows?
@@michaelinlofi A friend recorded the international cut for me on a blank d.v.d. I've had it for 4 or 5 years. I hope it does get a OFFICIAL home video release like ''PART 1''. I have the Donner cut. The main problem with the film is the editing. Really sloppy. Out of all 3 versions, as i said before, the international cut is the best version.
@@georgeharris9873yes!! The “International Cut” is the “best of all possible worlds” version of Superman II. The movie in that form is truly a masterpiece.
And even better, the alternate dialogue/takes with alternate b.g music was better than the very same scenes we'd see/hear in the Donner Cut.
I like the international cut too....some of the extra otis / lex banter is dumb but shows their ren and stimpy relationship
Agree 100%!! "General, would you care to step outside?" is perhaps my favorite line from any Superman movie, and when Donner replaced that is when I realized he was intent on just being as different as possible, regardless of whether it worked or not. That line captures Superman perfectly, and works as an emotional call back to when he says it to the bully in the diner, proving that, powers or no powers, he's still the same boy scout. That was a HUGE cheering moment in the theater when I saw it back in the day.
The Donner cut isn't a finished film but a mishmash of the theatrical cut, deleted scenes, screen tests, and reused footage from the ending of Superman: The Movie. There are some great scenes in it, like all the Brando stuff and the footage Donner shot for Daily Planet, which Lester replaced with the Niagara Falls stuff. I think Donner is a better director than Lester, but the theatrical cut is better.
The Richard Donner cut in my opinion never should’ve been released. I said this for a few reasons. Number one clearly, Warner Bros didn’t really care about it because the budget was incredibly cheap. Some of the effects shots they used were embarrassingly awful. Number two I think it’s clear Richard Donner really didn’t have a great recollection of all the footage that he shot. Because frankly he should’ve been embarrassed by some of it..
@@dbreiden83080they should just be put on DVD as deleted scenes
I disagree. The Donner cut shows what could have been. You can't judge the movie on the basis of not being complete, because it was not completed. Donner would have 20% more footage to shoot including a new ending. About the effects: I think they did a good enough job to match the technology of the 80s.
@@florisvandenberg7424agree with you 👍
Superman 1&2 were shot together except for the the Lester reshoots and his original material. Donner using footage from what appears to be the first film is open for interpretation because he was forced into the cutting the 1st film the way it was done (including, using the planned ending for the 2nd film to be used as the ending for the first film). If he showed footage from there in this film, it's because that's what he originally intended the 2nd film to have
Donner was too stubborn to admit Lester did an adequate job, thus his own cut suffered.
I agree. Had he allowed a little more Lester footage into his movie (such as all of East Houston), I don't think I'd have been as hard on this cut. But chopping out East Houston really screws with the Donner Cut's pacing
@@michaelinlofi It was pretty disappointing to see this as a wasted endeavor in 2006 when it first came out. All us fans essentially wanted was the Restored International Cut with the Brando scenes restored, but Michael Thau couldn’t get that right. This along with the dismal Superman Returns was really rough to see the character get the justice he deserved.
@@kamdan2011 The Vudu digital cut is about as close as you'll get to that. The East Houston scenes are still in there. And as a bonus scene treat, Non killing the boy by throwing the siren is edited back in.
Women: He was only a boy!
Ursa: Who will never become a man!
Only Good bit is how Clark gets his powers back
WRONG. He didn't even put together "The Donner Cut" Michael Thau had access to Donner's footage in the Warner vault, and this project is just an attempted "what if" for fans to get a glimpse of footage they thought they'd never see. It was NEVER supposed to be a serious director's cut alternative film to the theatrical version. The Donner Cut is just a fun side project. It IS a glorified fan edit, but with access to some unseen Donner footage.
Donner Cut was an amusing curiosity, but it was a patched together Frankenstein job with lousy digital fx. I just lol when people say they find the Donner Cut superior.
I genuinely wouldn't dislike it as much if not for those dreadful digital effects. I still wouldn't like it much but it wouldn't annoy me
I think Donner’s Superman II is still meant to be part of an “origin story”, what with Superman still being young and making a rushed foolish decision, hence his bratty demeanor and rebelliousness. Lester’s film has Superman being active for at least a year or two, and he’s been slowly falling for Lois in more ways than just his “can you read my mind” adventure that swept both of them into a fast romance. His conversation with his mother is sweet because he feels as though he’s really found the one. While In Donner’s film, Superman feels like he’s owed for saving the world. Donner made a tragedy while Lester made a Romantic adventure.
Honestly even before getting into technical details the Donner Cut has a couple of huge fundamental problems right out of the gate:
1. It's a sequel to an alternate Superman 1 that does not exist.
Without it the intended "Superman defies his father and interferes in the course of human history for the better because he is indeed human at heart" theme is simply not there, both because it's not referenced at all in the sequel itself and because the Superman 1 that DOES exist has already resolved that arc. So the tradeoff in Jor-El giving Supes his powers back ("You were wrong about this - I was wrong about that") becomes "Superman needs to be bailed out by daddy and we'll all pretend none of this ever happened."
2. The Superman 1 that exists did a better job with that theme anyway.
Isolating the Jor-El arc to the first film makes it way more focused and satisfying. "Lois is dead! But dad said I can't interfere with human development. Screw it, I am human!" is way more direct without getting muddled in dissonance with "But dad also insists I have a responsibility to save humanity." And also makes it easy for us to connect Lois's death with Pa Kent's death ("I couldn't save him") and with it the subtext that Superman has decided that Pa is his "real" father.
So the Superman II theatrical cut (the film that actually exists) takes the opportunity to focus on a story about Superman learning to navigate his free will. There is no argument with dad, instead there is a mature discussion with mom. He is not "wrong" to forsake his powers, he has changed his mind and wants them back. He is not saved by his parents; he had inadvertently saved himself by moving the green crystal away from the crystalline machine before it self-destructed. He does not reverse time to undo his mistakes; he only erases the memory of Lois's heartache because he loves her enough to let her go. It's a story about Superman figuring out what he truly wants in life.
I love this breakdown, thanks for putting it here!
Couldn't agree more.
I've never understood why fan boys cream their jeans over the Donner cut. The editing and pacing in the middle section of the film is really uneven, the appearance of the actors varies even more from scene to scene than the theatrical version, the re-inserted scenes look like sitcom sets, and the ending is totally puzzling and redundant if you're a new viewer. Recommending this version to newcomers is a huge mistake.
It's because Lester and the Salkinds ruined the film franchise much how Joss Whedon and WB execs ruined the justice League movie....unfortunately Donner didn't have a choice but to throw in scenes that had already been shot because it had been almost 30 years and the film and tech used to make it were dated asf..calling ppl fanboys because they wanted to see a shimmer of what could have been is subjective because it comes from a place of privilege.. Lester got to finish his film....Donner got to edit his film
The original cut overall is better and brings the story full circle. The would you care to step out line with Zod and Rocky mirror one around. As well as Superman/Clark making Zod/Rocky thinking both getting a feeling of victory before both of them loosing. Not to mention the music!
As much as I don't like this cut overall, I'm glad we got it because all the footage is quite fascinating, and a lot of it is great, it just doesn't come together.
Side-note: That extended version of the Donner cut on streaming includes the bit where Non kills the kid with the police car light from the TV cut.
Finally - I thought I was the only one who preferred the theatrical/Lester cut. Agree with you almost note for note. Like others have said - I can really only view the Donner Cut as an experiment - deleted scenes mix. The scene I missed the most by far in the Donner Cut was the heartbreaking part where Lois explains her pain to Clark right before he erases her memory. Then to listen to the Donner cut commentary where it seems he bashes the Salkinds every 5 minutes. Honestly I think both Donner and Lester are talented. More amazingly I think its amazing the theatrical cut of part II was as coherent as it was given the turmoil. I can get past the stupid toupee/Phonebooth gags - its so fleeting. I think the Whitehouse attack & The Kryptonian trial are about the only things I like better in the Donner cut.
I agree 100%
It's silly how people think that the Donner cut is a better movie. Wake up
Yes you are only who prefers the theatrical cut.
The Donner Cut is still superior.
The final confrontation in the Fortress was superior in the Donner version.
obviously not - as this video exists@@theunknowncommenter725
To make a long story short, The Richard Lester Theatrical Cut is not too bad.
But the Donner Cut is still superior.
No it isn't? If he wouldn't have put those numskulls as terrorist's? The film could hav been a little bit better.
@@theunknowncommenter725 Not really. If there WAS a real Donner cut, it definitely would have been. But there isn't. Just a very approximate recreation. Besides, Lester's forte is comedy. Always has been. And since Lester wasn't as invested in the Superman legend as Donner was -- which Lester admitted - he fell back on his strengths. Which doesn't work very well for Superman -- definitely proven in Superman III.
still don't forget 80% of what you saw is still Donner's directing.
@@theunknowncommenter725even though superman went back to the diner to get retribution against rocky after superman turned back time to before the initial encounter making it completely unnecessary?
I think a lot of people missed the fact that "Godfather" author Mario Puzo wrote the Story and Script for Superman 1 & 2 and how he is much a big influence on the Movie as much as Donner or Lester is. His absence from the Re-cut Donner version greatly impairs the cohesive vision of the planned original 2 movies.
Puzo did write the story, but Tom Mankiewicz was brought in by Donner to massive rewrites.
In the Donner cut the film isn't finished. PERIOD The special affects aren't finished, and are scenes that weren't filmed and thats why Donner added screen test footage to fill in the gaps.
Very true
@@michaelinlofi Thanks. Donner even said that this cut released on dvd is unfinished but pasted together to bring the closest thing to his vision.
While i still think that both versions are inferior to the first 1978 movie i do think some of the reshoots are better. I dont mind superman 2 but i do think the first movie is much better.
I feel an edit of both cuts could make this movie even better
I feel much the same way. I have a concept of a video on that very topic, but I have to actually string it out into a coherent shape before I write it out
I would agree as well. I would keep most of the Lester stuff, but add the Donner Krypton scene, The Donner cuts of the moon scene, the small town scenes, Lex's escape from prison, the fortress scenes, Zod's attack on the White House, John Williams score, and the Metropolis battle.
Lester stuff would be the Paris terrorism, opening. The Niagra scenes (I just can't go for screen test footage) the magic kiss, the
Clark rematch with the bully, and Superman repairing the White House and renewing his pledge to protect humanity.
It also seemed to make more sense where Clark sleeps with Lois after being stripped of his powers in the Lester version vs sleeping with her
first in the Donner version.
The Donner version showed he could be intimate with a human women as a superpowered Kryptonian. It seemed to suggest that he wanted to
get rid of his powers just to avoid the burden of responsibilty of being Superman.
The Lester version seemed to suggest Clark wan't to get rid of his powers, out of wanting to be able to phyiscally love Lois without killing her.
The purpose of the Paris terrorists was to establish that Superman II took place at least a year or two, if even more, than Superman. This would make more sense as it explained Lois’ recklessness (being rescued by Superman is now a habit) and her suspicion on Clark never being seen with Superman.
Margot looked sooo much better when directed by Donner. Her hair in Lester’s film looks totally different from shot to shot, and it looks like a hairstyle from the 1950’s!
That's because Donner shot 1&2 at the same time. Most of 2 was done before WB gave the order to push the first one out in time for Xmas 78, and they abandoned work on 2 and put all resources & focus on finishing 1 ASAP.
Yes, I'ts crazy how much different hair/wig can create such a different look. In any case..I'm biased...loved Margot Kidder sporting whatever....❤❤❤
Not related to margot but its about the hair lol. Zod looked better in the Lester cut with his slightly longer at the back and slightly greyer hair. The screen test scene where clark gets shot looks more way off than any of the other stuff combined. Both of em.
Agreed with most of this. Susannah York's Lara > Marlon Brando's Jor-El.
I agree. I feel like, especially with the 3 hour 8 minute rendition of Superman: The Movie, we get plenty of Jor -El/Kal-El interactions. I love that Superman II(Lester) gives some time to Kal-El’s relationship with Lara, his Kryptonian mother.
Only problem with that is, when did she get time to record her ghost voice mail? Then again, when did Jor-El?
@@mainstreetsaint36 I just never use logic thinking about that.
Donner cut has some highlights for sure, but it's not what I'd consider a complete film, and I find the performances to be more stilted and stiffer than the Lester cut. It's a great "What if", but IMO not a serous contender for which ones is better. Theatrical > Donner cut.
Thanks for articulating all the problems I also have with this version. My friends tell me I’m nuts for liking the original better…
I don’t like “The Richard Donner Cut” neither.
It’s cool to see the extra scenes, but I still prefer the original by Richard Lester. Even if it wasn’t originally planned for him to direct it.
A hybrid cut of the best parts of both films would be the solution. Similar to the extended tv version but with the Brando scenes incorporated. Lesters beginning and ending, Donners extended White House scene and Fortress of Solitude ending. Take out all the bad gags and terrible 2006 effects - then hey presto.
Maybe we'll get a fan cut ;)
@@trydowaveSelutron fan edit on Internet Archive 🤫
I too prefer the cinematic cut, but then I’m a fan of Superman III as well.
If there's one thing about me and Superman movies, it's that I will defend people's right to love Superman III. I know by all technical measures it's not a very good movie, but I never not have a good time watching it. It's just fun
@@michaelinlofi I absolutely agree. I am hoping you will review it sometime as I really enjoy your content.
That's very kind of you to say! I do have plans to review Superman III, and I have an idea as to how to approach it, but I have a couple other videos I want to get out first
Nobody's perfect. Tbf, it gets a lot of unfair criticism. It's fun. It's inoffensive. It's not Supergirl, ffs
@@michaelinlofi I agree I’m a fan of the first three 4 not so much liked returns more then others
Brilliant analysis and I agreed 100% with every point you made. Like you, I'm also puzzled by those who insist the Donner Cut is the superior version. As you say, it's not a film in its own right, despite the marketing. I think of it as a DVD extra at best.
I have huge respect for Richard Donner and his incredible first film but have real issues with the way this would have gone. No Superman heroics for quite some time (there was a foxhunting scene in the original script but hardly the stuff of big drama), a Lois Lane who is definitely unhinged and the hideous turning back the world solution to every imaginable problem. In the commentary to this, I thought Donner came across badly, even quite arrogant in places, slating pretty much everything Richard Lester did.
One thing nobody ever seems to mention is the awful 'blood' make-up on Christopher Reeve when he returns to the Fortress - it looks like someone just brushed on some bright red paint.
I can't say I've had a listen to the commentary of the Donner cut. Might have to do so at some point. But in general I agree with your sentiments about Donner - I have nothing but respect for him and his work, because he is a great director, but all the same this cut of the movie is not his best work.
I did notice that the bruising makeup on Clark's face wasn't particularly convincing, but I wasn't sure it was worth bringing up. But yes, it's not very good. It was a lot more convincing in Lester's restaging, though that might be something to do with the lights being down and the shadows hiding any problems with it.
Having read that script, I rolled my eyes at the Fox Hunting scene. I'm pretty certain they wouldn't have done it. Although the turning back time ending sequence in the Donner Cut is under the idea that the turning back time sequence didn't happen in Superman: The Movie.
100% agreed!!!
I'm glad this video exists, because it outlines so many of my problems with this version of the film. Yes, Donner got screwed, but it seems to me that people who called this version better are too blinded by what happened all those years ago to step back and see this version for what it truly is: shoddily put together and done without understanding the positive qualities of the theatrical version.
I think most would agree that Lester’s is better mainly because the Donner cut had a direct to video-like effort to finish it. And a lot was just unfinishable in the first place unless they recast the actors or used CGI to recreate Reeve and company.
@@axebomber2108 And the Lester cut actually has some really good scenes between Clark/Superman and Lois.
Nahh I prefer it. I can forgive it's failings for being 4/5s of a film and for having to redo things to comply with regulations to be able to claim directorial ownership doesn't bother me. Glad to have seen what potentially could have been.
That's entirely fair! I appreciate you giving the video a watch despite disagreeing though!
In the international cut of the film I'm not sure who added it Lester or Donner .you see police showing up and arresting Luther and I believe the Kryptonian villains. I'm guessing it was something Lester shot otherwise Donner probably would have put it back in.
It was definitely shot by Donner. Gene Hackman refused to return for reshoots when Lester took over, so in the theatrical cut they had to sort of edit around that. Which in all fairness, they did a pretty decent job at for the most part.
So you're right, that last bit where everyone got arrested should have been in there
I am totally in agreement! I like the Lester cut so much more.
What do you think of the theatrical version? And how do you like part 1, 3-4?
I have videos on the 1978 original and the theatrical cut, but will summarize here.
Love love love the 1978 original. Golden film for sure. I also have a lot of love for the theatrical cut of Superman II. It's flawed obviously, but I grew up with that cut and it still feels more complete to me than this cut.
Superman III is a mess, but I never have a bad time watching it. It's just fun, even if it's kinda bad.
And I haven't seen The Quest for Peace yet. Can't bring myself to watch that one to be honest
@@michaelinlofi The Quest For Peace had good intentions, but its budget cuts are VERY apparent. I loved it as a child but I realize now that is because it is almost like a cartoon. A few years ago I saw a lot of deleted footage which could have arguably helped, but it was extremely cheesy especially with the first Nuclear Man who was cut entirely from the final cut. It's sad just how botched this entire franchise became. I agree with Donner in the documentary that had he stayed on, the trajectory of this franchise would've been quite different--for the better.
Donner had filmed both movies but because he didn't trust the Salkinds, he took the ending for part two and used it for the first movie. The Salkinds were notoriously cheap and wouldn't pay Donner or Brando. Lester was brought on reshoot some scenes to get credit. Hackman and Brando didn't return.
This Salkind/Donner debacle reminds me of a saying, 'A restaurant owner should not tell the head Chef how to cook, if he is preparing food according to a menu for the customers'.
What culinary school did the restaurant owner attend 😅 🤔 ? ? ?
The Lester cut is the superior cut.
In your video at 35:50 the deleted scene of the arctic police, I do believe I saw a cut of the movie with this scene. 🤔
There is one! There was a special cut made for TV syndication, which is about 15 or 20 minutes longer than the Lester cut and it included a bunch of scenes like that Arctic police scene. I did consider bringing it up in this video or my video on the Lester cut, but I couldn't think of much to say about it at the time. It will however be important in another Superman II related video I have plans for
If you don't like the Ms Tessmacher finding the toilet in the fortress scene you won't like the version on Vudu. It's implied the super shitter killed her, she flushes and we hear an almighty scream.
Oh good grief. Donner, why?!
@@michaelinlofi I doubt it was Donner. I actually think he got Thau to take it out. The reason for the difference in version streaming in vudu is that they sent the almost final version to them by mistake. There is a little bit extra Brando dialogue with lex, then the loo gag. The scene with the kid getting exploded is there, some other minor alterations. Donner likely told them to cut all that shit out before he signed off on it, then the error was made sending the earlier version to Vudu. Michael Thau has denied this in interview but all the evidence points to him being mistaken.
@@faneditedbybooshman Yeah, really. Between Thau and Donner, there was a denial going on there where Donner was too salty about keeping the Lester scenes. How these streaming services got these extra scenes kind of had to be from a mistake.
I agree completely. Superman 2 has always been one of my favorite sequels of all time,and I never thought it was anything but a seemless next chapter to the original which is a masterpiece. Superman 2 in many cases is a more entertaining watch due to the pacing and the focus on the villains. I understand that showing Donners intent was interesting and a good tribute to a great director. But it just didn't work for alot of the reasons you mentioned. But also because Superman 2 is so iconic and was so successful at what it did.
Ive been Working on Superman II edit for years you can find it on my page, BUT I AGREE EVERYTHING YOU SAID IN THIS VIDEO
I don’t like that they had to compromise so much due to like 30% of the Donner footage not existing and the lack of any new Williams music since he never scored Superman II. Plus the bad dubbing and the occasional use of body doubles in new footage like Lois at the typewriter. Things like the original Phantom Zone escape should have been left alone other than showing the missile causing it, the CGI and space footage looked so cheap.
Yeah, I made the huge mistake of watching the Donner Cut as a first time viewer of the Superman movie series. It was a mess, a terrible viewing experience. Sure, there are parts that are good, the stuff with Supes and Lois at the beginning was good, but it was clearly an unfinished movie and wasn't fun to watch. My friend and I were watching all the Superman movies since we hadn't seen them before and we both reacted pretty badly to the Donner Cut. We ended up putting on the theatrical and it was a much more enjoyably coherant experience.
I totally get the value of the Donner cut. I completely agree that the studio fucked up by firing Donner and making a mess of all his Superman movie plans. It should have been Donner all the way. And I think if you're a big fan of the films, you should go watch the Donner Cut and enjoy it. Just don't ever try and push it as a REPLACEMENT for the theatrical cut, because it is not. It is a piece of history, an interesting relic, but not a coherent film in its own right.
Nice to see the perspective of people who started with the Donner Cut. Thanks for the thoughts, and thanks for watching!
The Donner Cut never was pushed that way. It was always said that it was a bonus for the fans who thought they would never see what Donner shot, or intended. Once some of his unseen footage was discovered in the Warner Vault, it was decided to throw together the best attempt then possible with the tiny budget WB allotted to treat fans and capitalize on Superman Returns being new at the time. It's essentially a big bonus feature. Nobody at the time took it as a serious alternate version of the established theatrical film, and Donner didn't even have much actual involvement in it. Michael Thau was in charge of the whole project.
you are a bit thick when it comes to the gun shot scene...that fact that it did not hurt him made him give himself away...lois outsmarted him...he could not just say the bullet missed because he would have to explain where the bullet landed instead......keep learning kid
What? A movie involving Superman where the original director was let go and another director was brought in who added a bunch of unnecessary comedy bits and the original director was able to edit and release his cut years later? No way.
You never made a follow up video where you talk about what you would've done for a combine cut ending; I went looking for that right after. Do you think that's still in the cards some day?
Sure is! Part of why that's not happened yet is I straight up lost the Premiere Elements file my rough draft edit was in thanks to a computer crash. So I intend to do it this year but it means a back to square one approach
@@michaelinlofi any updates?
@@flamsey still on the cards! Unfortunately 2024 didn't go even close to plan so 2025 I have to play a lot of catch up lol
If Donner was able to finish this movie it probably would have been better.
I imagine so too, but when we're faced with the options available to us, I'll take the theatrical any day
The part about Lois Lane jumping out of a high-wise window to prove Clark Kent was Superman was too hard to accept. Lester’s version of that scene made more sense.
I ended up making my own cut of this film by taking my favourite scenes from both versions, plus a few deleted scenes and editing them together myself.
Considering the movie was only 70% complete when Donner was sacked, of course it wasn't a complete film. A third of the film is missing, and they stole his Superman 2 ending to use in the ending of the first Superman movie. Considering those handicaps, it's amazing he had enough to work with at all....and it's pretty amazing that 70% of the Donner version is comparable to 100% of the Lester cut.
They did not stole anything donner decided that for budget reasons they needed to concentrate on superman 1 and they decided to put the ending of superman 2 on superman 1 and then come up with a new ending for 2. Of course that did not happened because donner was fired.
As a complete film, the theatrical cut is obviously superior. But the White House attack, a more serious Metropolis battle, and a far more intelligent final showdown in the fortress of Solitude edge the Donner cut for me.
Perfectly understandable. One of my future video projects is to write out a guide to the perfect Superman II cut, so I'll have more to say on those elements... Whenever I remember how to write
@Latest Obsession I'll do my best!
Good video, I agree with you, I prefer the original cut. I like Donner's but it's weirdly edited together, and I much prefer Ken Thorne's soundtrack for this film.
Thanks for watching! Always appreciate to hear when I've done a good job on a video
I agree with most of your points. I got irritated when I watched the last scene of Clark bullying an innocent guy in the diner. I honestly thought I just didn't understand, or I missed something. Thank you! Love this video.
Original Superman 2 is far superior in general
In general, I agree
I said in the Superman 2 video that I personally enjoy both cuts of the movie, after watching that video I kinda change my mind on that statement to where I lean more towards the Lester Cut; but I think there’s some stuff in the Donner Cut that is better than certain stuff in the Lester cut in my personal opinion, but I definitely see some of your points. I definitely want to see that video about your Ideal Cut of Superman 2, but I think that should be after your Superman 3 video.
Anyways, that was a Great Video and I can’t wait for the Superman 3 video.
Also, I hope you do a video about Superman 4 and maybe Superman Returns.
Thanks for the comments! Ironically Superman IV might be the hardest one to talk about because it's extremely obvious why it sucks. I might try and go at it at the angle of what Reeve's intention was for it and how badly he got screwed, but I'll have to watch it in its entirety before I'm sure
I actually like the Richard Lester way, Lois finds out about Clark for a few reasons. Most importantly though, jumping out of a multi-story window in the middle of a work day, is simply too public. There is no way Lois would been able to return to work. She would have been carted off to a hospital for psychiatric evaluation, her career would have been over. At least when Lois jumps into Niagara Falls, Clark is the ONLY witness.
Now to be completely fair to this movie, Clark also jumps out of a window in the first one and nobody seems to notice. But all the same I agree with you
Agree with a vast majority of your assessment. I have great love for II as-is. But in the realm of wish fulfillment, I think there is a 65% theatrical release - 35% Donner Cut that hits the sweet spot. And essential is keeping Superman flying up to the Daily Planet window for the "Step outside.." moment exactly as it is in the theatrical release.
I still never could get over how jarring Lois/Margot looks between the Donner and Lester cuts. Now I've noticed the difference in how Sarah Douglas/Ursa looks between the cuts too...Once you notice it, you can't un-see it.
Ah, reshoots... Always a trip
Between Superman the Movie and Superman 2 reshoots, Margot Kidder went through a divorce. It took something of a toll on her health.
@@mainstreetsaint36Yeah, the difference in the footage is very noticeable.
Simply put, the Donner Cut is not completed. It is not what would have been released.
Dude...this WAS a glimpse into what Dick Donner's vision was. It's not a definitive cut! How can it be? They use Lester's shot scenes so it's somehow watchable.
As for editing they only had a small budget. A small team...they decided early on not to use CGI companies for modern day (2005) CGI.
Everything you don't like they are all well aware of. This wasn't a $90 million post-production of ZSJL. It's just a representation of the movie makers original vision. Made possible by the death of Marlon Brando. WB finally bought the footage from his estate for the Superman Returns movie.
This is pretty much exactly my point. The problem was it was sold to me by both Donner's claims of what it was and fans in general to be something it wasn't. Take a scroll in the comments of any given Superman II video, you'll find at least one person claiming the Donner Cut to be the better, more complete film. The result was that when I watched it, I could not have been more disappointed with what I got
@@michaelinlofi I never had that impression. I knew what it was before I watched it. I may have missed the marketing you saw. But I went into it knowing I was going to see a 'frankenstein' movie.
There no doubt Dick Donner's movie would have been superior.
I mean maybe, but some of the things I took issue with in Donner's vision still stand regardless of the state of the cut, ie. my problems with how Clark seems very self absorbed in his conversation with Jor-El about becoming human, Lois' plan with the gun, etc. But much of that comes more down to personal taste than anything I suppose
@@michaelinlofi Lol...its garbage supported by Donner cult followers on the internet. They will love it no matter how bad it is 🙄
I'll keep it real with you, if the Donner Cut fans strike you as a cult you've not met the group of people who truly believe that Zack Snyder directed the best Superman movie ever and type restorethesnyderverse on posts related to the death of other celebrities. Now that's a cult
I wanna know what your cut of Superman II would be like. :)
Thanks! I actually found my old Premiere file I was doing the rough draft in, so I might have a skeleton for a video on that thought experiment... soon. Can't promise a release date, but it's coming along!
@@michaelinlofi Okay. In the meantime, I'll watch your Superman III video. And hopefully, you'll do Superman IV too?
I've always enjoyed the theatrical version . The Donner cut would have been better if we could have just saw his version made when he was supposed to make it.b rather than the cut and paste version we got
I’d definitely like to see what your idle cut of Superman 2 would be.
Thanks!
This is a good analysis. I thought I'd watch this (along with the Caravan of Garbage analysis) before renting the Richard Donner cut, and from what I can see, there's no way the Richard Donner cut should be classified as an alternative full movie! As you mentioned, Richard Donner never even came close to completing the movie, so how can it be his alternative cut? I was horrified to see that they actually filled scenes with 21st century CGI, and cheap and nasty at that, to make it look like 70s lol. Yes, it looks like the kind of "extra" footage or "special" you would have as part of a DVD or Blueray release. It would be far more appropriate to have it labelled along the lines of: 'The making of Superman II: Richard Donner's original and alternate scenes and edits', or something... What a joke releasing it as an actual alternate movie cut, especially when the ending makes no sense in the grand scheme of things. It's like a big movie plot hole blooper they rightly deleted for the second film and more appropriately used for the first was just added back in.. lol. How does it get 86% positive audience reviews on Rotten Tomatoes? A bit surprised that this cut, released as an actual movie, was even legal. The "new" version had me fooled for a second, until I saw this! Cheers.
Another part that I found odd Superman, and Lois made love before Superman gave up his powers in The Donner Cut. Yeah I thought it would be dangerous of Superman to have sex with a mortal woman due to his super strength. But yeah in Superman III Superman had sex with Lorelei and he obviously didn’t hurt her.
@@matthewkrankka7398 I guess they'd know if any issues if, as earthlings, they became pregnant with a superhuman alien.. lol
Thanks for the kind words on the video! Always delighted to hear when something I make is appreciated!
@@matthewkrankka7398 And this is where Superman Returns gets really muddied with Lois' child. If it's based off of Lester's cut, Jon wouldn't have powers due to Clark being depowered before his conception. If it's based on Donner's cut, he wouldn't have been born at all as he was conceived when Clark had his powers but he turned back time and didn't sleep with Lois.
Donner barely had anything to do with the actual editing of his cut. It was cobbled together by Michael Thau. Thats part of the reason for the crummy CG effects.
That was actually the weirdest thing that I learned about this cut while researching this video, that he only got involved halfway through the editing process. Such a bizarre set up for a cut that's supposed to represent his vision
I think its because it had been years and years and a lot of false starts. Thau pretty much embarked on the project because of fan outcry and intermittant interest from Donner.
@@michaelinlofi I've heard that had Donner himself didn't get involved later on, then Thau would've utilised a bit more of the Lester Footage (including the Amnesia Kiss Ending).
The theatrical version of Superman 2 was far better in my opinion
How would you rank every live action superman film from worst to best?
Genuinely not sure. I think it would go something along the lines of (from worst to best) Man of Steel, Returns, III, I, II. I can't count IV yet because I have not seen it
@@michaelinlofiI think IV is awful. As an extreme fan of the series, I STILL 😂 find a way to like it. No spoilers, but I recommend watching it to make up your own mind about it.
IV could have been better if they didnt cut the budget so much. There wasn't any money for special effects.
hated the Donner cut, other than Jor El being added back to the intro scene. Thanks for making all these points, as I am baffled how anyone can like this version which is a complete mess and makes no sense especially at the end
Lol...most of the Donner Cut followers weren't even born when the original was released. Fact is there was nothing wrong with the theatrical version from lester. I saw it just out of high school and it was a smash it. the humor and the romance is what made it work in the first place. Donner cut is unnecessary garbage like having fans on RUclips make their own version it's ridiculous.
You are lucky to have seen it back then. I'd trade my right arm for a chance to go back to 1980 to see it in theatres
@@michaelinlofi Lol... it was a great time. graduated that year.this movie struck a chord with my age group. The romance the humor everything just worked. Saw the movie 4 times just for the reaction in the theater. It had the same impact on my generation as Iron man had on this generation. everything just worked for its time. Because I experienced the original release the Donner Cut looks stupid to me.
I can only imagine the applause at "General. Would you care to step outside?" Very envious of you, sir
@@michaelinlofi yea . perfectly placed in the movie. One of those movies where you throw dice up in the air and whether its planned or not they land on perfect 7's over and over. Had a huge impact on the 18 to 30 something crowd a lot of couples. The romance and the humor with just the right amount of testosterone scenes to get guys pumped.when he threw zod into the Coca-Cola sign place erupted And yea I get jokes that worked 40 years ago may not work with this generation. but they did work then because it was a different time.We laughed at all of them and the special effects at the time where state of the art. That movie was the benchmark for superhero movies well into the 80,s and had a huge impact on the release of burton's batman attempting to fill the void left by superman 2
Well I was. And I was one of the who campaigned for that version.
The Jor-El (Brando) scenes made better sense, however some stuff like the Paris rescue, Niagara Falls/Lois incidents like her jumping in the water and his hand falling in the fire, and the desecration of Mt. Rushmore scenes should have been left in. Was happy they removed the “Forget Everything Kiss” & the plastic “S” Emblem scene out. Some other scenes I can try to think of more, but those at the top of my head I can think of
I bought the Donnor cut on DVD when it first came out, mainly out of curiosity. I thought it was better, definitely more serious, than the original, but I also felt the same way as you. Thought it was more of a shout out to the fans than an actual good movie. There were some scenes where Reeve's hair and physique just didn't match the rest of the film. Was obvious everything was pasted together.
Yeah, some scenes with Reeve were taken from screen test footage. Thats why he looks so different.
@@maximusprime3459 The one most jarring to me was the one in the Fortress where he talks to Jor-El and holds out his arms towards his father. Reeves had really scrawny looking arms when they shot that scene.
Absolutely. When Christopher Reeve came back to finish the second movie, he was a good 20 pounds heavier mostly muscle than when he started in some of the earlier footage that was shot.
@@dbreiden83080Most of Superman 2 was shot at the same time as Superman: The Movie which Reeve gained nearly 30 lbs of muscle for. Anything with him looking thinner is likely from screen test/rehearsal footage, or scenes shot very early on in the schedule.
@@burntvirtue
He is more bulked up in the Lester scenes which he came back to shoot in Sept of 79.. Larger than he was for the Donner scenes..
They actually re-shot roughly 50% of the movie..
Once again great work Michael 👍🏻💪🏼. Your attention to detail and your way of putting it all together for us the audience is very impressive. It‘s obvious you have not only a deep understanding and passion for Superman but for Movie making (and editing) in general. It‘s always great to watch videos like this, made by people like you that have great love and appreciation for the magic of movies and movie making 👍🏻
If only there was a way to add the Brando footage to Lester’s version then you’d have a hell of a movie.
Fan edits exist. Maybe someone will do one for superman 2?
The film needs a new cut with a good budget to restore scenes and make the most complete story possible.
I had no idea there was another cut of the Richard Donner Cut, thanks! I've only seen the DVD version myself.
I didn't know either until halfway through writing this, so that little bit where I explained that was one of my more last minute additions to this video not gonna lie
@@michaelinlofi So I bought the Amazon version and really didn't pick up many differences. This cut is still a disjointed mess.
One scene I noticed (and compared to the DVD to be sure) is in the Midwest town. Zod declares that nobody is allowed to leave. The kid in the overalls runs away and hops on his horse and gallops away. Zod then turns to Non and says, "I said no one leaves!" Non then throws the cop car light down the road which explodes and kills the kid. Ursa then gleefully says, "he will never be a man!"
Yikes that is dark. I can see why it was omitted originally. Guess Donner decided to put it back in after the fact.
@@tryksta7247 Or they were a restored International Cut fan but couldn't do a full HD version.
I notice that the little violin piece that begins the discussion of the musical score is actually taken from the score of ‘Arabian Adventure’, which was also scored by Ken Thorne. An ironic choice.
That was actually completely unintentional. The music here is from Korsakov's Scheherazade suite, as played in an episode of Leverage. The suite is based on the Arabian tale of a ruler whose wife (Scheherazade) tells a story every night for one thousand and one nights. It's a pretty popular composition, so I daresay Thorne referenced it for Arabian Adventure.
As for why I picked it as the intro for the musical discussion... I now have absolutely no idea. I think I just wanted to sneak a Leverage reference into the video. So I am highly amused that it somehow managed to connect to Thorne in the end
Clark isn't a spoiled brat in MOS when he's arguing with Pa Kent in the car?
That's the least of Man of Steel's issues with Superman's characterization, to be honest
It's NOT a "definitive cut". Not at all. It was never supposed to be. Where did you get that?! It was always said that this was just an attempt at using the newly discovered Donner footage in the context of the full story. A special treat for longtime fans who thought they'd never get to see this Donner footage.
The simple answer is the internet. Fans of the Donner cut in comments sections had spoken of it as if it were supposed to be definitive. Hell, movies and spin off comic books regard the Donner cut as canon. So going into it I'd been given the impression it was a Snyder cut level recut
Maybe but that digital Superman punch on NON was epic , did the version you have also use the arm wrestling match in the beginning ? I thought that was a cool way to slowly bring the menace threat as an introduction slamming the guy down through the table .
The firing of Donner didn't happen the way you described. Richard Lester was already brought in by the Salkinds as a "go-between" during the finishing of SUPERMAN (1978) as tensions rose with Donner and the Salkinds, and everyone could basically tell that Lester was being groomed as a replacement to finish SUPERMAN II once the producers could find an excuse to finally fire Donner. It happened, and Lester finished SUPERMAN II. Lastly, Guy Hamilton was the original director for SUPERMAN (1978) and had to leave the project due to being unable to film in England. Donner then took over and scrapped all Hamilton's pre-production. He was never considered beyond that point, since they were filming at Pinewood Studios.
Eh to me both cuts have their own problems. The Lester cut I honestly only liked the three Kryptonians stuff. I thought Lester went a little too far with the humor and that some of the new powers sup and the trio got were weird.
That being said the Donner cut isn’t great either. It feels unpolished cause it is. The cut seems at least to me that WB wanted this thing out on the cheap so they had to make due with the budget they had. Because of that the effects look bad. Then as far as the test footage I realize and agree it’s not that great but it’s the closest they could do to what Donner wanted.
I try not to look at the Donner cut as a movie per se but instead a pitch for a movie that could have been made. It’s rough around the edges, there are problems with pace BUT ya get a drift on what the movie could have been if Donner would have been able to complete it.
Between that movie that never was and the Lester cut I have a feeling from the rough frankensteined movie that is the Donner cut that his version of the theatrical movie would have been better.
Sadly we will never know for sure.
Wow - almost point by point what I have been saying about the two cut of the film for years. Please do an HD or 4K edit someday!
I think the point of the Donner cut was just to give us an idea of what his version would have looked like had he stayed on the project. But for some reason it has replaced the Lester cut as the official Superman II.
Well I would Disagree on the argument about showing it to someone first as I showed my brother this version without showing him the theatrical version and he had no issue with it. Some with some freinds non of them even thought it didn’t feel like a movie. So I think I it still works as a film
I appreciate this perspective. I've had people take both sides on that particular point - some say it worked as a first viewing of Superman II, some say it didn't. It's as subjective as anything else, I suppose
Unnecessary amount of humor isn't that the standard for Marvel?
It did feel a bit incomplete but I loved it anyway.
im 52 finally somebody had the balls to say it Agreed !
I mostly just wanted to be honest here. I wanted to like this cut, but I remember my first thought after finishing it being something to the effect of "I don't get it"
The release of the Donner Cut was what got me into fan-edits back in late 2006. I've seen probably 30 different edits of this film that various editors like myself have taken a crack at. One of which still puts edits on his YT channel rarely. He does animation to try and create entirely new shots too. We've all dissected this flick and all the footage from all 3 versions (I'm including the tv broadcast version) to death lol. There's an editor who called himself "Selutron" and he posted about a dozen edits of this flick himself back in 2006 when the Donner Cut was first released (It's what got me interested in fan edits as well). These edits are still here on YT too and I strongly suggets fans seek them out.
As for the streaming version that's 5 minutes longer, here's what's put back in or added: The ENTIRE East Houston Idaho rampage scene is restored (including Non killing a boy who tries to escape), the soufle' scene (another scene only available in the tv broadcast and on the deleted scenes sections) and when Miss Teschmaker flushes the toilet, we hear her SCREAM and it fades away (guess she suffers the same fate as the villains at the end). Lex smiles and says "She found it". There's probably a few others but those were the 3 big takeaways I can remember.
Many years ago, I recorded Superman 2 on TV and surprisingly there was a few scenes from the Donner cut mixed with the Lester movie, and it was really a nice movie. Some of the scenes that was included was Lex and Otis in jail , Superman destroying the Fortress, well most of what you described.
Ah yes, the cut that is largely known now as the Restored International Cut. I really badly wanted to talk about that cut in both this and my video on the original Lester cut, but outside of a reference to the scene where Non kills the kid in East Houston I've never found the right place for that section. Perhaps when I make my video on "the hypothetical perfect Superman II cut" I'll finally address it
I absolutely agree. I bought it in 2006, watched it, and instantly hated "The Donner Cut". No thanks!
Yeah. I never understood the reasons why the Donner cut is so much better. I like them both equally.
Obviously this can’t be viewed as a complete movie, because it is peiced together, there are pros and cons to both, like I did much prefer Lester’s “general, would you care to step outside” lone better that Donners “have you ever heard of freedom of the press” line, but I preferred a lot on Donners stuff over Lester’s, like Jor-el belongs in the fortress, not Lara, I just think Donner knows how to treat Superman better since he’s actually a fanboy, as apposed to Lester who could care a less about the character, it’s a paycheck for him, not a passion like it was with Donner
That's all entirely fair.
The other thing that I didn't bring up is that the freedom of the press line is very clearly ADRd in by a voice actor who is not Christopher Reeve. Very weird
I believe both of those lines were filmed by donner, donner just used a different cut to differ his movie from Lester’s, you can tell it was shot by Donner because Superman still has his hair curl which is absent in the Lester footage.
Actually, "would you care to step outside" was shot by Lester. The giveaway is in the backdrop of Metropolis outside the window - the Lester footage has a different (and for my money, worse) backdrop, and it's that backdrop behind Superman for the step outside line
@@michaelinlofi I think we need a build your own superman 2 dvd or something.
@@michaelinlofi They actually did a very good job if it was indeed ADRd in, it honestly sounds exactly like him, and reminds me of when he said "bad vibrations". In the 78 movie.
However it is also entirely possible that it was recorded previously.
Also, I noticed that there was a clever dub when superman said "I'm not a coward zod" in the donner cut, I don't know why they needed the ADR there, they had the line from the lester cut.
The hot air balloon was a dumb idea in both cuts . You can’t get in a hot air balloon and just go any direction you want.
The music is changed yet again when Zod’s hand is crushed.
Another problem with the time travel ending is why didn’t Superman just do that to put the Kryptonian criminals back into the Phantom Zone BEFORE fighting them and then luring then to the fortress to have their powers erased? He could have solved the problem to begin with by just turning back time.
I always wondered if a "curl" was a real thing.
Hard to tell. Googling it doesn't seem to bring up any conclusive answers
You gotta admit, though, there was that moment when Jor-El's hologram glowers up at Lois while Superman is losing his powers, there's a certain weight to it that wasn't there before
The crummy 2006 effects were supposed to be that way because they were attempting to replicate the 1980 limitations.
Very good video mate, looking forward to more.
Thank you! Hoping to have more out soon - I have notes for a Superman III video, all I have to do is string them together into something coherent
@@michaelinlofi Sounds like what happened when they made the script for the movie.
As a blue ray extra it's certainly a nice thing to have as a historical curio, but yeah, this is not really some definitive version of Superman II.
And really all in all if I had a personal version of this film it would probably end up being one minute less Lester stuff replaced by one minute of Donner stuff
Same. The Lester version of the Kryptonian trial would be first on my hit list, for example. But narratively it would pretty much follow the Lester cut
@@michaelinlofi I wasn't too fond of the small-town nonsense. I thought Lester had the villains dick around way too much there.
Reeve's Superman began to die the day Richard Lester got his grubby hands on the production's celluloid.
After watching this video, I agree the Donner cut has it’s problem, but it also has it highlights, like the fight between Zod and Superman, and the Marlo footage , and Lois and Superman relationship, however the Original film has a lot of problems, insert scenes, bad visuals, and a cringy fight at the fortress of solitude. However I think the donner cut is better, but can be the best if someone were to re-edit the film and fix the problems.
The superman reveal to lois in donner cut was dry though good acting writing. Lester version is warmer, cinematic, emotional and passionate.