New BUILD : Excellent Air Conditioning System Cost? I’ll tell you!
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- Опубликовано: 4 июл 2019
- On this episode of The Build Show we are looking at a Killer HVAC system in this Bungalow being built by Trey Farmer, AIA of Forge Craft Architecture. We will reveal the costs for this system AND tell you how much you should expect to pay for a system like this in your next BUILD.
Forgecraft: forgecraftarchitecture.com/
Positive Energy: positiveenergy.pro/
Mitsubishi HVAC: www.mitsubishicomfort.com/
IQair: www.iqair.com/
Ultra-Aire: www.ultra-aire.com/
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Our 4300 square foot, two story house was built in 2002. It has three 2.5 ton units. One is for the master bedroom, master bath, and the home office. This approach saves us a ton of money. We can close off our bedroom and run that unit at night while the rest of the house does not have to be heated or cooled at the same temp we want in the bedroom at night. My cost to upgrade or replace one of those smaller units is much less compared to replacing a single large unit. So far all three units are still working. I had to replace the circuit board in one unit two years ago. I did that myself, because my service guy was traveling out of state. He services my units every year, cleans the coils, checks freon levels, cleans the burners, etc.
Those hepa filtering units get clogged up quickly. I know because I've had one of them in one of our houses. I've tried all that fancy stuff, humidifiers, etc. The simpler you keep it, the better. What works better is super insulating the house, use smart thermostats, window shades on the south side, and keep the rest of the system simple. I change all of my filters every three months. I use the medium grade filters, instead of the super fine particle filters.
Over the last forty years, I've purchased multiple heat and air systems, for various houses we've owned. For our area, heat pumps have proven to work well, even through I have 20,000 watts of electric auxiliary heat as a backup in one large house. It comes on so rarely, it's impact on my electric bill has not been bad.
We have natural gas heat in another house, and it runs $350 to 450 per month during the two coldest months. The house with the heat pumps, which is the larger home, has never had an electric bill above $350.00. The highest utility bills, in our area, are for July, August, January and February. The houses are 25 miles apart so the climate is identical.
I am not a professional builder. I'm just giving my perspectives based on forty-eight years' experience of being a home owner of multiple houses in different states across the South.
I like your channel and learn a lot from you. I am not trying to be critical. I'm just stating what has worked best for us over the years. It might help a few people, who are not planning to build a million dollar home.
True HEPA filters burn up fan motors. Went back to the "Good" filter at HD and still no dust on my coils at all and I no longer replace fan motors every couple years.
WE HAVE TO BE GENUINE WITH EACH OTHER ON SOCIAL MEDIA....MOST OF US ARE HERE TO LEARN OR HELP SOMEONE ELSE..THANKYOU SIR
ANOTHER CONSIDERATION...OUR BODIES ARE NOT DESIGNED TO INHALE PURE AIR.....WE HAVE TO HAVE.." CERTAIN MICROBES"... WE ARE DUST.
I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT GOING WITH ..MULTIPLE SMALLER UNITS IN MY HOUSE ALSO...I KEEP THINKING ..IT HAS TO BE MORE EFFICIENT!... THANKYOU FOR YOUR INPUT!
@@jamesvanriper6334 The reason the "HEPA" filter "Burns up your motor", is that your filtration / return duct system, wasn't sized or designed for the highly restrictive nature of the ultra-high efficiency filter to begin with. A "HEPA" style filtration system much more free surface area to allow air to pass through it, without creating an intolerable pressure (and flow) restriction. Your poor blower motor essentially died the same death as a chain smoker......it's lungs were working 15 times harder than they were designed for, just to get the same flow they did before smoking started.
I have put in many systems and I always put systems in a second floor closet and returns from bedrooms came down next to unit. This minimizes ductwork. I made a plenum and installed dampers in the plenum. Power Open/ Close. I put in a fresh air return into the sophet or wall. I chose not to put dampers on the fresh air. Either a 5" or 4" duct was used. This compensated for any pressure differntial caused by bathroom fans on. Even with the system off, the negative pressure caused by the fart fan would pull filtered air through the house. A 3000 foot house 2 story with isonene would be about $12000. I built a plenum in the downstairs near the center of the house and all down ducts were off that. Sizing of ducts to each room was done using Wrightsoft. Been using it since 1998. The zone controller handled the staging but on the communicating systems the Thermostat did that.
The latest equipment from Daikin/Goodman has adaptive staging which changes according to the load. In spring, it will run on low stage mostly. The dehum functions and all settings to tweak the unit is done by bluetooth to the air handler. Updatable software for the air handler and condenser is through the phone to bluetooth function. I have seen too many UV lights and ERVs not working due to homeowners not liking to pay several hundred dollars a year to work on them. The comfort level of a properly sized 2 stage system with zoning is a far more practical system. The extra dehumidifier without proper airflow will cause problems unless it clears the cold air out of the duct system. As you know, you need to have a minimum amount of air in the ductwork or you get stagnant air in a part of the ductwork that exceeds 60% humidity and allows mold to grow. Can you change that filter for $20 like merv 13's cost?
I like to install 14 seer equipment these days as they have no call backs, last 15 years and the fan motors don't cost $1500 to replace after 8 years. The bearings on the 2 stage Copelands seem to have issues after 8 years or so. I have a Class A with C designation here in Austin. I don't like the failure rates of a dehumidifier that uses a compressor and fan plus an ERV plus 2 stage compressors with variable speed motors on the condenser. On a house like this video has, the power bill in Austin will be way under $100. The difference between a 14 seer and even a 16 seer system as far as energy usage will never in the lifetime of the equipment have a return. A 16 seer 2 stage with variable speed air handler is $1600 more than a 14. 13% energy savings will save $150 per year. The equipment lifetime is about 12 years. The 3000 foot house on Hwy 360 has a power bill of $60 using my technique with a 16 seer zoned 2 stage. The zoning with time of day calculations on where the loads are, keep the system running in low stage over 90% of the time. So the 3 ton system cooling a 3000 foot house in Austin doesn't go out of the 2 ton mode very often. Since the zone board bye EWC can handle basic thermostats and only needs the one communicating one, the cost was only $12000. The returns to each room was pretty easy since the only thing in the attic was ductwork. The duct runs were short as the control box was in the center of the attic. I find that the sealed houses have alot of humidity and are at least 10 degrees warmer than the living space. Putting 500 lbs of equipment in an attic raises the load factor by 10%. After all, when the equipment is off, it warms to attic temperature and when turned on has to cool down all that mass.
Nice Video.
I have no idea what you're talking about but it sounds interesting
Trade craft speak
I wanna party with you.
As an HVAC owner/operator and license holder this is a great video. I wish all of customers would listen to me when we talk HVAC in the beginning stages of projects. The select few that do are extremely pleased with the results. Great job Matt and Miguel!
I guess it is the changing times. We used to go outside.
@@rywolf01 Yeah, sure buddy, "profit is evil". 10 years ago, I got quoted $7,000 to install a new HVAC in summer, and I thought that was ridiculous. So I went and got my 608A certification, learned out to install an HVAC system myself, and did it. I learned two things: 1) As Matt points out in the video, your bottom-dollar cut-throat installer isn't going to do a very good job. There are hundreds of tiny things a good installer does that will maximize the performance of even the cheapest systems. If you cheap out on the labor, you might as well tack a $20 tax onto your heating and cooling bill for each month that thing is drawing off the grid. 2) It's hard damned work, with a lot of on-site fabrication, crawling around in a hot attic, inhaling insulation, and trying to not put their foot through the ceiling, to install that system. Did I save money? Yeah, $2k. It took me three weeks vs the 1-2 days a pro would have done it in. But frankly, that $2k is a well earned profit for the HVAC professional. And for your average homeowner, it's worth every penny.
Dude has every right to his expensive sports car. If you don't like it, you can move to Venezuela with all the other commies.
It used to amaze me when we would rough in the hvac systems in million dollar homes years ago....it was like the hvac was an afterthought. Not enough space to install equipment in a serviceable manner and dont get me started on space for ductwork. Then they would cheap out on the equipment itself. Drove me nuts
I agree 100%! Everyone wants open floor plan but never want to provide and walls or any thought about HVAC, then they wonder why the house heats/cools like shit. In a 2 story application Im a huge supporter of supporter HVAC systems to zone the home...but it's never "in the budget". Irritates the hell outta me
Andrew Krause lmfao! FYI that's not an expensive sports car. Its a 99 camaro...some would call it a poor man's sports car.
As a construction electrician that has dealt with hospital HVAC installs and now the proud owner of a century home, I completely agree. My house breathes better than most people and I absolutely hate it. These videos are really helping me tune my budget and my focal point on purpose built equipment to make my house a better cleaner version that its current self.
As a licensed hvac contractor,i must say that is a fantastic job. I do a fair amount of new construction(cleveland,oh.) and builders and customers are woefully ignorant of the costs as well as the time/labor which goes into an above average installation (energy star standards). At least equipment mfg,s are producing the equipment needed for this type of work. The duct-work is critical and i was glad to hear Miguel point that out. Outstanding work !!!!
same
Crazy didn't realize how much goes into some of these systems. Never seen one like this in person, only traditional installs
I work for a commercial mechanical company . All these things have existed in commercial installations for a long time it’s great to see them find their way into the residential home
Can you do a video for a normal house, maybe 300 - 500k price range and it's equipment. It's nice to see a HVAC system that 99.99% of the audience will never have but what can the rest of us expect if we are putting in a new system?
THATS A TYPICAL SYSTEM WITH A DEHUMIDIFIER....NOTHING FANCY....JUST AN AIR HANDLER
That's nothing crazy man. Nothing crazy. Filtration on that system I'd prolly the most over the top thing.
With 10+ years of experience their is a large difference building to your environment a lot of his video show southern building high humidity year round but in the northern building for a 2000 sq ft home you would be over paying hard for some of the things Matt advocates for but he does his disclaimer when he speaks in his videos i do believe he over builds but that’s what his clients want and their is nothing but respect for General contractor who is well educated
@@danielluti8857 depends how far north you go. Further North into central/northern Ontario we have a lot of weeping bedrock that causes dampness in the houses year round. Not to mention all the humidity from all the small lakes and the slow spring melt.
Amen. This is A/C for the rich and famous.
It's refreshing to finally see someone talk about long flex runs. As an HVAC contractor in the Northeast, long flex runs are not common practice. However, most HVAC channels based in the south, flex is all you see. You also don't see many GC's talking or caring much about the HVAC systems. Love the content Matt, keep up the good work.
You want to see a bunch of 5 ton spider 🕷️ systems. Look at those $2-10M homes in Alpharetta Ga that I used to do service on. Most variable speed blowers wouldn’t push enough air through those high profit hack jobs.
Best video yet on the foundations of a great HVAC system. Makes me want to build another house!
Thanks Mark!
This is a GREAT video. There is so much good information here. What people don't understand about buying a system through a big box store is that they're only trying to move as much equipment as possible. They don't pay the installer enough to make it worth their while to ensure you have the best installation for your home. They're only there to put in equipment, not make it work with the home properly. Spending so much money on your home, it only makes sense to pay a little more to have the job done properly. Improperly installed equipment leads not only to less than desirable conditions, but it can also easily cause failed compressors and other expensive failures down the road.
Dream system for those with allergies!
Correct Mr.A
“So what does a typical unit cost here”
“Well you know, it all depends on the environment but things have become highly competitive”
I get it, I can’t afford it.
JediOfTheRepublic
Why can’t they just say the numbers?!!
What do they need to tell you,that you couldn't figure out yourself; with doing a little research on the internet as far as costing the products that they are talking about. Then figure in the Skilled Labor, Which doesn't include the Lowest bidder.
SEEMS LIKE THEY HAD AN UNDERLYING AGENDA
Gcanno what do you care? But if you must know, I’m interested in the breakdown from a builder that’s built a bunch of custom homes - so he has some insight to the relative $ amounts. I don’t understand what’s so secretive about the underlying facts behind the % Matt & Miguel are quoting.
@@curtcmiller Because the number for that house in Austin is not going to be the same for a house in Phoenix or Wisconsin.
Also, the size of the house will determine the size of the setup required. The style of the house. Etc
As an hvac contractor, I'm glad SOMEONE is talking about the important stuff, asking the impirtant questions...
While my own business is primarily service & retrofit installations. Myself and several of my guys cut our teeth in new construction. And we DO work for select builders. The ones who "get it". The ones who value what we do, and want to build a better home.
The things that go on in production building are downright appalling most the time. These poor homeowners are spending 3-700k, on average, many times more, on the shoddiest built homes, with terrible hvac systems. There is something majorly wrong with a 500k house, where the hvac system was only 8k. We're taking 1.6% of the build on one of the main thing that makes your home liveable... NO-ONE can do a quality system for that. It doesn't have to be over the top, but knowingly sell the homeowner a P.O.S. system is just wrong. We have often gone into million + homes with the crappiest hvac system you can possibly imagine.
I cant tell you how many times we go in and fix brand new homes. Its disgusting. These people trust their builders to use quality subcontractors. Instead, some of these builders get tons of bids, they put the higher, quality company's bid on the budget... Then use the cheapest, shittiest company they can find. And even then, they will haggle them down on price, make the overage in difference in contract price, PLUS points on top of that for management...
If nothing else, videos like this are a start. A start to educating homeowners on the questions they need to be asking. Quite frankly, if you are building a home, and you never sit down with your hvac contractor? Or at least your hvac contractor and builder, and have a consultation about your comfort wants and needs? You should look for someone else. Or at least asking yourself why. How can a contractor deliver the kind of comfort you desire if they dont know WHAT it is, you want? Food for thought people.
Some valid points raised. DIY is the answer.
I go through this constantly. Lack of knowledge with builders/customers lead them to beleve that you are cheating them. In new construction etc.,its all about the kitchens and floors.
@@samsun01 Only to a degree. One can't diy everything. It's just not feasible. Nor is it feasible that one could diy their whole home better than a professional.
The distinction here, that I was making, was the builders. Makes all the difference in the world. And they're not that hard to find, typically. All you really have to do is just compare the work being put out from one to the other. The differences are typically obvious.
@@Floridaman8783 good distinction. Invest some time upfront on finding a good builder while also invest some time to educate yourself better so later on you can fix your own house (case by case, depends on what can be DIY).
Love the in fact that they're talking about design and how important it is as their stepping over DWV pipe. I assume they could have pushed it under the floor and pop it near the wall or back 3feet under the ducting.
Love the show! Glad they don't show my jobs! Armchair quarter backing is so easy.
That way the plumbers don’t have to drill holes through ceiling joists, which are probably part of a truss system. I would be glad they did it this way, it’s a mechanical room.
Most times holes in joists are frowned upon by codes..... arm chair quaterbacks will always chime in..... im proud of my own work.... you??
@@jstkeeps yep 98% of the time I will be happy to put my name on anything I do. (Anyone who says they are always proud of the work are biased to the point that they become scary). Also please show me what code says you can't put holes in joists, and I'll show you 10 that say you can and will give you directions how to do it.
Really loving this passive house series!
Very informative. Good job, Matt.
Made me laugh that your thumb nail says "it's less than you think!" .. meanwhile it was about 100% more than I figured it would cost
😬
I think a key point that many might have missed is that these units use 30-40% less energy. HVAC, especially in the south, is easily 60-70% of your electric bill. These units typically pay for themselves in a few years.
@@timothymason7609 what do you mean by "these units"? As far as I could tell, it was a air handler, presumably with a heat pump sitting outside.
Variable refrigerant flow units. The fans and compressors ramp up their speed depending on heat load versus a traditional bang on bang off unit.
@@timothymason7609 yeah it's called an inverter.. they are definitely more efficient but is not new technology. . And a lot of times is hard to get the return of the investment, with the exception of very hot climates, where it would run all year like you mentioned.
Since there were some strong hints that this system is $50,00, let's break that down:
Positive Energy design service: $7000 (0.5 to 1% of total construction cost)
Mitsubishi 2-ton condenser, evap/air-handler, and line-set: $4500 (eComfort & many other at this price)
UltraAire 70H: $1250
Panasonic ERV: $1000
Misc electric, new ducting, labor and other fees from HVAC contractor: $36250!!!
The design service & equipment costs seem reasonable, but the HVAC contractor fee for a 2Ksqft house seems pretty excessive - especially since they aren't doing the design & specifications. If you assume 25% is supervision/manager and 75% is labor/expertise for the actual install - that's a 2-man crew working full-time for a month @ $85/hour to install the ductwork & equipment and make the electrical connections, and you know the contractor isn't paying the installers $85/hour - I'd be shocked if they're paying $50/hour. And Matt's talking about the HVAC contractor needing to make a profit on the equipment.
northavealum the sad thing is the actual installers (not supervisors/lead) probably make under $20/hour.
@@AMTAUSTIN I'm confident you're exactly right - I used the higher figure to illustrate how ridiculous the economics Matt & Miguel presented. More likely the HVAC contractor is making even more money. Makes me want to go to HVAC school for 6 months to learn the fundamental so I can skip the HVAC contractor altogether and afford the $7K for a firm like Positive Energy to do their thing.
@@northavealum if they're getting $7K for that simple design, they're cutting a fat hog. Probably around $3.5K is more like it - and that would still be a very fat fee vs the design effort required.
ArthurDentZaphodBeeb I agree on the design cost and would hope there’s some other companies offering this service. I would much prefer an hourly cost. The design service is a step in the right direction: being able to be fully educated in the HVAC options. Next step IMO is separating the equipment procurement from the HVAC Install services
In high-end homes go the extra step and install area zone dampers with thermostats, with the variable fan speed on the system the comfort will be higher.
Thank you for showing passive house details.
+1 for Passive House and passive inspired house. 😁
Great video!! Nice work Miguel!!! Looking forward to seeing you both at Nerd Camp!
"We live in Austin, it's a very hot and humid place..."
*Laughs in Houston*
Smiles in San Antonio
Crys in Corpus Christi
smirks in Orlando
*Cries quietly in a corner in Naples Florida*
Lmao in Miami
$70,000 for HVAC in a million dollar house! I’m in the wrong business!!! I know for a fact all those materials are NO more than $20,000. HUGE profit margin.
Yeah what a robbery.
DIY if you want to save $50,000. But these are professionals worth their money if they deliver on their promsies.
Jeremy Marsh I do know, that’s why I commented, yes it is work but any system installed during the framing stage of home building makes it much easier and not worth $50,000 labor! You can pay that if you like... not me.
You have to remember customers that put these type systems in are extremely demanding. You probably have double the time time in meetings, designing, and engineering. It’s not a rip off. Just Hyundai/Ferrari
Don't forget costs of labor and the codes they have to adhere to!
Really great design and HVAC work. Thank you very good presentation though
Mr Risinger,
Great video just what I wanted to know in terms of budgeting and planning for my new build. Thank you!
Question: on an unrelated topic are you going to return to answering questions live once a month via phone calls for your member supporters? I’m was really looking forward to speaking with you during one of those sessions. If not i would just like to know because I’m always looking thinking I missed it.
Thanks my best to you and yours.
Thanks for talking costs. Just gives a context on all the equipment etc. You are rolling my man.
@@77Avadon77 >$40K with design costs is my guess.
77Avadon77
They say in the video 4%-7% of a 1mln building. So $40k to $70k.
But that’s just initial investment. What are the operating costs and depreciation?
@@77Avadon77 This is a demonstrator-type home, so they are going above and beyond. Of course, both Matt and the HVAC designer have vested interests in these elaborate systems ("the more, the merrier" since both get markups on their work - it's $elling their work to customers that's the hard part).
$70,000 I can get a split system for each room. No duct and no allergies. Why people build with ducks especially in the medium and hot climate is beyond me.
Not to mention loss of space in the addict. Put a few skylights and you have a loft..
Great system. Major push back on theses systems. Requires a lot of education on the customer end so they understand the differences. Your videos help me sell these upgrades in our houses. I have done my due site genie in educating client but when budget are tight we have to let off come of the higher end items like ERV and leases grade dehumidifiers .
Matt, I find it very helpful when you put out episodes about a specific topic, just as I am getting questions from clients about that topic.
Thank you
I liked it when you finally got to the pricing. 40-70k, that's the cost of the houses I'm looking at. Cool. I'm interested in the dehumidifier though, in Lithuania, rainy country, I'll need this.
Just save your money and buy a portable dehumidifier for about 25% the cost.
I wish you spent some time talking about what needed to be done to this house for it to be okay for an attic install. Extra credit on how to retrofit a house attic for this.
I think he just said the space with all that equipment is temperature controlled like the rest of the house..
Sometimes I think about how great it'll be to build an energy efficient, comfortable house. I'm sure that HEPA filter alone, adds years to the occupants' lives.
Then you talk about "7% on a $1mil house" and I remember that that's what I build the entire house for...
That HEPA-quality filter will likely be clogged and disfunctional in a few years, or replaced with cheap home-store filters installed facing the wrong way - 'cause who's gonna pay $500 for a few filters? Most people won't spend $30 bucks to change the oil on their $50K vehicle.
people who buy million dollar homes will.
People who are buying things like this are doing it for their comfort, not to pinch pennies.
And they are people who (likely) may have someone do this for them as part of a preventative maintenance plan.
@@bradleynealdaleyI don't know about Austin, but in some cities, $1M can't get you a decent condo, let alone a house with all these bells and whistles.
You should do a video on ducts and different types. I’m assuming rigid has smooth metal walls that are more resistant to mold building up like “rigid” fiberglass ducts
In a well designed, sized, and properly executed installation, there should be NO mold present, to accumulate in the duct work, regardless of the type of materials utilized.
@@timc9893 Though true, its a difficult bar, and for long term health I prefer the metal I have had to work with mold issues in the past. A metal duct can be cleaned as well and better IAQ.
I learned a lot on this one... thanks!
Great video. Thanks for the information.
You put out a lot of great info. Thank you
It cost less to do things right the first time than to do it wrong twice...
Great video/advice again and always from you and you subs that have the same attitude.
Keep up the good vids Matt.
Thanks!
Absolutely see cheap ass homeowners go with the craiglist guy in the unmarked truck and bitch when we come in and condemn the whole system because how wrong it is. I don't feel sorry for people like that. You get what you pay for. Dont get mad at the experts and their prices to clean up your mess
+1
My dream house would include a super exhaust system for the bathroom that you can hit an overdrive on when you are done showering. Bring in dry air.
Thank you @Ryan Foreman for such a specific answer on an example cost. Why such a lack of hard #'s in this video?
Good video. I learned a lot. Thank you.
Watching this channel to learn how to upgrade my 1980s house. At least to become energy efficient. Passive would be cool.
To me it's not life or death to have a 100% sealed house. I mean you have to bring in fresh air. Sure its filtered, but you open doors to go in and out, which is about the same depending on how often you go outside. I know someone that did a remodel with spray foam and mini splits, power bill about $30 a month. If he washed clothes and used the dryer, or used a bath fan, when he opened a door to leave, his house would actually suck the door open because it was pulled to a vacuum almost with the exhausts. Crazy. Just think I'm too practical and have to be really be truthful with myself when selling things like that to people when I honestly dont think its needed. Cuz it's not NEEDED, it's a luxury basically. I can put in a standard 14 seer heat pump system in a 1300 sq ft rancher from scratch for about $10k, and electric Bill's would be around 120, depending on insulation. Mini splits would double that up front cost, possibly triple. If a house is that well insulated, a super expensive hvac is total overkill. The rancher I speak of could have $70 electric bills if sprayfoamed. So why spend the extra 10k in hvac? Even the 14 seer system would barely run with a house so tight. Should be a study to show cost of hvac per sq ft and cost of insulation per sq ft and cost of electric bill per sq ft. To find a happy medium where you aren't wasting money. Even if u got unlimited funds, if you are super insulated, any hvac will do its job easily. So how much do you really need to go beyond the norm before it no longer gives a return on investment? Wow way too long of a post, sorry.
I completely agree with you. I did A/C work for 38 years and only ran into a few of these systems. They are typically bought by "Look at what I have" types of people. I just about flipped when I heard their price estimates. I guess they need that money to keep making videos on YT for people that will never spend that much...
Sounds like your friend's house is in a vacuum while he's doing normal things like laundry or bathing. That violates a cornerstone rule of efficient operation and can (sometimes) lead to things like humidity damage down the road. If you get any significant amount of air exchange by simply opening a door and closing it behind you, your home is either in a serious vacuum or incredibly poorly built (same difference). You can either spend the money up front to actually control the interior conditions inside the home or you can spend the money on the back end by cooling air that is exchanging to the atmosphere. Power cost will never go down, only up over time. These homes are generally not 1700ft ranch homes; they're large, complex homes in a hot, humid climate. These homes are intended to last 100 years or more. 100 years ago, it was ridiculous to build a house with sheathing>water barrier>siding. But look at us now. Your position seems reasonable today, but it won't in 50yrs.
You are overlooking air quality-yes air is entering the house but through leaks and “filtered” by man made fiber insulation and dirty getting into the air you breathe, and this approach allows you to positively pressure the hosue, invaluable for pollen and ESPECIALLY for radon. ...but i do think you can go crazy on this stuff -the whole concept of passive house is nuts. A;so a good compromise is a cheaper simpler say two stage HVAC unit AND augmented by a dehumidifier.
He did have a fresh air exchange system in play. I know nothing of HVAC so I'm learning. And rockwool insulation helps with the mold and bacteria problems since moisture isn't absorbed by this material unlike fiber glass insulation which I have seen first hand. Not to mention a 70 liter per hour dehumidifier system in play as well.
Depends on how long you are gonna own that house. If you are going to own it the rest of your life then seal it up as tight as you can for as cheap as you can. Maybe spray foam the attic or at least air seal the top plates and rim joists if you have them. Then get a manual J done and if your super tight then get a variable speed Trane. Sure 14 seer single stage can do it but SEER has nothing do do with how efficient a unit is most of the time. The duct work is so undersized and unplanned its wasting the money and comfort. Plus you need O2, and in most homes it over 1000 ppm. I guess this is why we have such dumb people today, all that extra co2 is diminishing there cognitive abilities. I seen a local school class room air quality test and it was upwards of about 3000ppm co2.... way too much.
Would be nice to do a total cost of ownership comparison on this system and a typical cheap one. I’m curious how much energy and money is saved by using a well designed efficient system. How about maintenance and longevity?
If Matt did affordable homes he probably loose his mind on the small budget ... 😂
He builds only luxury?
@@Lenser Yes, he only builds custom homes typically between $700k-$3M. If you watch his remodel video, you see how quickly he can't NOT upgrade everything into oblivion. Builders run under tighter margins typically, and that causes some compromises.
@@j0nrages851 I like the fact he is open to new techniques and technologies. I'm just not sure how much he takes budget into account. I'm sure he does to a point but it seems most of his clients are high end with an open check book.
Simply a big commercial.
"What do you mean you only have 50k for a window package???"
Absolutely awesome!
I’d like to know what it costs a year for filter for this home you just installed!
I run 3.5 pleated filter in mine!
Stand alone dehumidifier that I have set on low with dedicated over flow hose!
I probably could not afford something like this but WOW, would be nice!
Laurels to these fine engineers as educators!! This is the finest 20 minute video I've seen yet, ANYWHERE, as an introduction to comfortable living by means of the latest innovations in HVAC technology. The best things in "real estate improvement" are not free or easy, and it's never easy to retrofit. God bless the people who have attic space. In SoCal where I live, cathedral ceilings are beautiful to look at and offer superior acoustics to audiophiles, but turn out to be expensive and idiosyncratic regarding thermal management. I'm glad I have above-average attic potential, and these ideas tempt me accordingly.
THERE ARE STILL SOME HOMES IN SO..CAL..WITH ATTICS
Love to the bones of the house.
I just built a 2900 sq ft house last year and got a top of the line 5 ton Carrier Greenspeed system with 7 zones and a return in each room. I paid about $22k but the installer was a friend. With open cell insulation on 2x6 walls, my electric bill is running around $160-$190 year round (highest in winter).
The house I moved from was 2000 sq ft built in 2004 and the electric bill was almost up to $300 in the summer.
7 zones 5 tons for 2,900 sq ft. and 5 tons? Too many zones too many tons.. but if your comfy I guess thats what matters
Your videos are always informative. This one got me thinking about the relationship between vapor barriers and dehumidifiers. I live in the humid but colder great lakes area. What impact do you think humidity control has on the need for a vapor barrier?
Excellent video. Good coverage of concepts and equipment.
Hey Matt - very useful discussion, but I have a question. Which components are sharing ductwork & what is the sequence? I see that the IQAir is inline with the Mitsubishi VRF) & it looks like the IQAir is pre-filtering air being feed into the Mitsubishi, but I can't tell if & how the other two components integrate. Are the Ultra-Aire and the Panasonic ERV each using their own dedicated ductwork? If not which components are sharing ductwork? How are the components sequenced? Finally, how do they keep the airflow balanced so that the components don't battle each other with so many different components playing with the air?
I'm no expert, but I think it would go like this:
Dehumidifier --> ERV --> House in one dedicated set of ducting.
Air conditioning --> House in another dedicated set of ducting.
The two systems have very different needs and ERVs/HRVs aren't recommended to share ducting with AC at all.
from what I got it was VRF + D and the filter system in one and the Panasonic system on it`s own. that is my Miguel said you can use a smaller 4` pipe for the fresh air system,
Excellent content!
damn if only i had that cash i would love that system looks amazing.
I love that this is based in Austin where I live!
Thanks Matt, I’m replacing my ha/ac system in a 95 year old house. Dehumidifier first item on the list. Any tips on how to shop for a good or top tier ha/ac contractor. Love your Chanel. You’ve already convinced me to switch from tankless to hybrid hot water.
I would work with these guys any day.
Video looks great! Don’t know what other guy is talking about
Hm,definitely need a filter in your home.
I spent about $20k to install and Armstrong 18 SEER variable speed heat pump, Honeywell ERV, and air ducts in a 1600 sq ft home in DC. I do wish an engineer had sized the bedroom ducts and that they had all been air sealed better.
Miguel "This is phenomenal" Walker from Positive Energy
Scott Martin hahaha one of those moments when a word gets in your head and it’s all that can come out.
miguel needs his own show!
Excellent and informative video. I am a bit surprised at the tight U bend in the return air duct feeding the filter. Is this normal/OK?
A few comment/questions (feedback?):
Okay, a lot of equipment, but a lot of handwaving and words about how it was all hooked together. It would have been nice to jump edit to a segment with Trey's plans on a table (or a piece of plywood across a couple sawhorses) to point and trace the air paths.
Second, the purpose of the dehumidifier is not quite obvious (to me). Yes, the house is in a humid climate, but houses have been being built with just an A/C pulling the moisture out of the air for ages, and those houses leaked (a lot?) of air. So now we are in a tight house, so when the humidity is sucked out of the interior by the A/C, the house is not leaking in a lot of new humid air, so why the need for the dehumidifier.
Third, the filtration unit was uncommonly fine. You never explained why the homeowner wanted this degree of filtration. Why? What are the different levels of filtration that can be designed into a system and what is the candidate region/home/homeowner for each level?
Lastly, what's with the silver vertical rods with the green things? It would have been nice to zoom in and focus on them with an explanation, assuming you haven't done that previously.
Cheers & thanks!
EXACTLY!!!!..THERE WONT EVEN BE ENOUGH AIR TO FILTER!!...WILL OVERWORK THE MOTOR ..JUST PULLING AIR THROUGH THE FILTRATION SYSTEM!
PEOPLE DONT REALIZE ITS CALLED.." AIR CONDITIONING"... NOT JUST " AIR COOLING"!!.... LOVE YOUR POST..THANKYOU!
OUR BODIES AREN'T DESIGNED TO BE ..MICROBE..FREE..
With a 3-stage one-to-one VRF system, do you control the zones via dampers? If so, and you still have excess CFM, do you install a pressure relief duct to blow that excess air to the attic or crawl space?
set me up...building a home in Rhode Island right now!! 11-30-2021...ready to talk about a system like this ...water tight and ready to roll
great video
Wow, all you need is a room bigger then my entire apartment to house the system!
Right 🤣
Exactly. What a joke
How complex is the maintenance of these systems? I'm thinking specifically of years down the road where the home may have been sold or transferred and a new homeowner comes in and needs to figure out how the system works. There are a lot of different filters plus settings/adjustments on the units. How standardized are those filters? Will there be problems finding replacements in the future, etc, etc...
This is actually a conventional system, it's just an air handler and a condenser outside. This specific system just has added accessories. So, my issue would be how the accessories communicate with the main system which is just software. Not exactly overly complicated but system maintenance wouldn't be more than any other system really. It has expensive filters...
The HVAC install company very likely offers yearly service/maintenance. I will assume a $500k+ homeowner can afford that service.
@@craiguglandrealty3705 we have done a ton of multi million dollar homes and only a handful want those maintenance agreements, we love them because it stops the bs from homeowners demanding we fix all the major problems their systems have on one visit when NO ONE has touched them in years
For a technician, the maintenance isn't complex, but the air filtration cost maintenance will be high. This is a system that will probably need filter changes more frequently and needs more expensive, higher grade filters. This drives up costs. Also, when the Mitsubishi system breaks down, its going to need troubleshooting and you'll need techs trained and EXPERIENCED on Mitsubishi software, systems, and special tools. The VRF system isn't like a typical system where within 30 minutes or less the issue is diagnosed (this increases labor costs when troubleshooting). For a passive house, the VRF system probably won't operate often, or for normal operational periods of time. This type of operation, though, is like driving your car in constant stop and go traffic. It is going to wear out your engine prematurely. HVAC systems are not designed to withstand short cycling or operation in low heat load conditions. Sure, the Mitsubishi system can unload to 15% of its cooling capacity. However, the risk here is oil loss and a failed compressor. Mitsubishi has designed its system with that risk in mind, but not for continual operation. You'll probably want the system to be programmed at start up to conduct more frequent oil recovery cycles. A passive house is definitely going to operate in an "unloaded" state and increases that risk.
There's also the Dehumidifier and ERV. Inexperienced technicians won't know how to work on it, and who knows if parts are readily available for it.
Design engineers can talk about how great the system is (and in this case, it really is a GREAT system), but they don't get to see it two or five years later when all of the problems arise because the home owner didn't spend the higher costs to get highly qualified and trained technicians to maintain their system above standard.
Hope this helps.
@@nickmeeder wow sometime typing alot of bull shit
While I think all these new technologies and standards are good, it makes me wonder how you deal with affordable housing. All these things cost money,and not an insignificant amount.
Matt Kopf he doesn’t construct affordable housing. He constructs higher end housing. hundreds of thousands of contractors do “affordable housing”. Most probably don’t have a RUclips channel. I don’t think you would want to see how that sausage is made.
Mitsubishi mini-splits are high enough, but seem to get really expensive over 18000 btu since they need a dual unit outside. Just went with Carrier to get 30000 btu at a reasonable price. Low temp system rated at 100% output at 0 degrees and 60% output at -22degF. The old electric baseboard will provide the low temp backup.
Bob W I have mini splits that run 30k btu and 33k btu. Two different houses. I think mine go down to maybe 20 degrees before I need back up. It never goes that low here and I'm only a couple miles from Canada.
@@jon3615 we got down to -31degF a couple of nights this last winter. I'm sure backup will be required but not that often.
Very informative! Thank you, is this system DC voltage?
For this price each room can have it own extra air purifier. Ductless hvac at 22 sear. and dehumidifier. This is such a nice package though.
Yeah, but imagine how many condensers you would have to have outside of the house and inside each room as well
You would still have to bring in fresh air.
Wow. This video was an eye opener. Very well detailed explanation. Awesome video
Great video! Thanks for talking numbers. One question, how often do all those filters need to be replaced? Fall and spring? just once a year? Longer? Do the different filters have different replacement cycles?
And also how much do those filters cost?
What numbers? they never said a hard cost, only vague percentage so people would not be shocked by the real cost.
Add running children and pets then air filters clog up in days not months
I’d like to see natural gas used in a hybrid system and some high wall returns. The lack of high wall return creates a stacking condition. System looks good and to the about ig lights the filtration is fine. Ig lights are sold to homeowners that won’t go the extra mile for real filtration. No light stops airborne particles.
Hi Matt,
I have seen a number of videos from you about this topic, but I can’t wrap my head around the loop. Can you do a short video or even an illustration about the intake and outtake chain!? Eg intake air from ac return grill goes through IQ AIR purifier, into Mitsubishi ac system, then outgoing hair goes through dehumidifier, then the exhaust air from that goes through Erv, and then all returns are from
Erv into rooms?? Or are there seperate ac vents and seperate ERV ventilation. This is one detail that has always confused me about the systems
Brian Tinsman your comment isn’t helpful
I think its going to be dependent on each project and budget. There are several ways to skin a cat. A basic system would have fresh air enter the ERV (which crosses the cooler exhaust) then go to dehumidifier then into the main HVAC which then supplies all of the rooms. The exhaust side from inside the house, which can come from a single point or multiple points is ducted directly to the ERV (to cool incoming hot air) then goes outside. I don't even want to know how much changing the filters would cost.
Apollo,
At a hi level, you will have 2 main ways to run an ERV, 1. Piggyback on the HVAC duct system, which will likely cause condensation or other balance issues at some point. Or 2. Have a dedicated duct system for the ERV supplies and returns. Supposedly, the are a few designed systems by some manufacturers for piggybacking installations but not sure if they have been fully tested for long term use in humid climates.
I live in a 280 sq ft apartment in SF but I would so love to have positive air pressure just to keep cigarette smoke out. Not going to happen, but I can dream.
MakeMeThinkAgain if you have some ingenuity and at least one window you can do it. The hard part is where you can get the fresh air. If it smells more smoky with the window open you're out of luck. But if it's leaking through the walls and floor you can simply put a window fan in the window blowing in and positively pressurize your space to push the air out your door and other leaky spots. Hope this helps.
@@jon3615 People go outside to smoke so it's the outside air that's the problem. I try to seal my windows (100 year old double hung) and run an air cleaner inside. Works well enough.
This is terrific! How do you account for the kitchen exhaust vent? Does it leak air from there? I mean the exhaust is just that... right?
YO MATT, keep your feet off the vent stacks, the pvc is not a foot rest.
Thought I was the only one who saw that 😂
@@shaunjackson6304 Hah ! Thought the same thing and thought Miguel was going to trip over it.
For real!
He forgot he is not in one of those crappy old inefficient houses with cast iron pipes.
Great info as always 👍🏽
How@small houses, condos & apartments, which is the way the industry is going now, as here in the west coast where building or remodeling is so exorbitant 💸💸
And yes I agree with you that the A/C planning prior to building is a must these days for budget, efficiency & comfortability 🌬😎👍🏽
Do you run seperate fresh air ducts or plumb the ventilation system to the main duckwork? With seperate ducts is there a possibilty of one system back feeding the other when one is not running?
tweake this one has dedicated ducts.
Very nice complete HEPA AC Sys 👌 🤩
Wondered how it would look & perform after few years of neglect & lack maintenance.
Cause PM oh you don't need that. Just run into ground it's fine. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Quality technology and building. I wonder what it would be like if all new builders took time to do this, instead most new stuff is using HVAC systems that are antiquated.
Basically comes down to money!
Miguel: "Get the distribution right", concerning ductwork. I find a VAST majority of problems with resi systems relate directly to undersized and improperly sized and installed ductwork. And btw, I am a small town hvac contractor, great looking system.
Thanks for watching!
Excellent video! Will adding RockWool to roof joists reduce heat in unconditioned attic space in Texas to help with AC load?
Shouldn't a "Top Line Air Conditioning System" also include a UV light Kit to sanitize the air or is it built in?
Check the NADCA white papers on this subject. Far more info there than is worth arguing here.
@@christophersines8238 Such as nadca.com/sites/default/files/images/2016/nadca_white_paper_on_uv_lighting_applications.pdf
D Scott and cold plasma also.
@Anonymous Because they're Bad for you, really bad.
Gcanno Yeah they are. Most introduce ozone.
Reminds me of people who overdo it with a kitchen upgrade and ten years later can’t afford to have their $20k range repaired.
Efficiency, comfort, and health I'd budget for this
My guess is that you Panasonic fresh air system controls are not scaled in CFM, but percentage of total CFM. If you think about it, those same controls are surely being used for different sized systems (in terms of CFM) and the controls referring to percentage of max makes the most sense.
I believe those squirrel cage fans that were visible when the cover was opened, were rated for way more than 100 CFM. I'll bet they were >250CFM each. Not that they are additive...
I used to design forced air equipment (similar to electric furnaces), which doesn't mean I'm right, but I do have a sense of what airflow fans produce, simply based on their type and size.
By the way, the main reason HVAC equipment uses squirrel cage blowers over axial fans, is pressure not flow. Squirrel cage blowers are usually speced because they have the requisite pressure to overcome the resistance they might encounter with long duct runs and/or filters. Many high efficiency filters have enough static pressure to completely choke an axial fan, which would otherwise have enough CFM to do the job. This is why you see axial fans being used in floor mounted circulation fans and smaller bathroom fans because these applications don't require high efficiency filters or long ducting. Another application for axial fans is cooling fans for computers and other electronics. Again, nether of these applications use long ducts or high eff filters.
Thank you for all of the great info - i was wondering about the batts used on the roof - what are they and why batts instead of spray foam if you’re making an airtight conditioned attic? Also maybe I’ll watch it again but I didn’t get what the function of the ERV? is? Not sure why that would be needed - thanks Matt
Patriot1 I had the same thought concerning spray foam....Why not if your going to all that effort?
I wish they would have covered the controls in the house, thermostat and zones and how this system would perform to make occupants comfortable. Can you cool different areas to individual occupant comfort? Or does it run off of one thermostat for whole house?
One shot for everytime anyone says “Frankly”. Seriously though, great episode.
* Tmiranda* frankly we agree ;)
Don't play drinking games on Matt's vids... I tried drinking everytime he said "COOL". I woke up in the hospital and had to join a 12 step program as part of recovery. 😳
What about what looks like an ERV on the left? Also would be curious to see all the schematics that we briefly see in the video to see how all that stuff is connected.
I heard harps when I saw that blueprint 😁👍
Why thank you! Check out more on our website. We like to think we do a good job designing systems.
$35K for a $500K house at 7% - Not sure how large the house is but a "Bungalow" would be less than 3K sq. ft. Could be easier, cheaper and better to use multiple mini-split heat pumps
100% true
In the future it will be no problem to have 1 outdoor unit running 4+ indoor units from large air handler units along with smaller ceiling units in master bedrooms.
This is what Mitsubishi S series is and it’s what I’ll be doing with my house in the future. That’s actually VRF instead of just VFD tech that Matt keeps calling VRF for some reason.
@@NotOurRemedy VARIABLE FREQUENCY DRIVE
ONLY A 2000 SQFT HOUSE....BASIC AIR HANDLER SYSTEM..WITH A DEHUMIDIFIER ADDED
Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of new home customers don't see the value in these designs. Too many are more concerned about the fancy granite countertops and marble floors with high ceilings. As a result, the HVAC system is forced to be installed in an area that is too small, uninsulated, and the ducts are jammed and crammed through the trusses.
Yea like at my house, they put it in the crawl space in the remodel..... Gaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!
@@MandoFettOG if it makes you feel better , they run them uninsulated across the roof here in southern Arizona. I promise your crawl space is better insulated.
I need a 2 door garage air conditioner. Do you have any recommendations?
I have no problem with companies like PositiveEnergy, but how do you deal with your HVAC installer when you come with an outside companie's design? Are you paying for something that someone with 20 years experience and forward-thinking could do and it's included with the cost of install? Who is responsible if air flow/quality doesn't meet expectations?
Can you put out some info on how you seal the plumbing vent and keep it from being a leak/heat source?
Joseph assuming your talking about the inside of the pipe and not the penetration itself. There are traps that hold water so no air is exchanged between the inside of the house to the inside of the drain lines.
Could your dehumidifer be hooked up to the outlet of the ERV for humidity control?
What do you think about have an intake and outtake to the rooms? Does this work?