Removing Seized Quill Stem With Drain Cleaner/Sodium Hydroxide/Lye
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- Опубликовано: 17 июн 2016
- I went to remove an aluminum quill handlebar stem, and found it completely frozen inside the steel fork. I tried various methods to get it out, but nothing was working. It was stuck solid, and I wanted to save the fork as it goes with the bike frame. I decided to use sodium hydroxide (also known as lye) to dissolve the stem. Sodium Hydroxide which is found in many drain cleaners will eat aluminum, but not harm steel. You can also use caustic soda or lye crystals. After dissolving most of the stem leaving just a thin layer, I tried removing that. No luck. That aluminum was bonded inside the steel steerer. I doubt that stem was coming out in any other way than completely destroying it. This is what happens sometimes with galvanic corrosion.
* If you use drain cleaner, make sure the kind you choose actually contains Sodium Hydroxide. There are some that contain sulfuric acid, and you do not want to use these.
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Hey RJ. Next time you work with lye, Have some distilled vinegar by your side. Lye is a base and vinegar is an acid therefore the vinegar neutralizes the lye. I make homemade soap so I always have it by my side.
Awesome videos by the way!!!
I did something like this a few times a while back with seat posts. Lower concentrations will work but you change the fluid more often. Because once the sodium hydroxide has reacted with the aluminum it stops dissolving. The benefit of that is lower heat The higher concentration will react for longer periods of time and will create larger amounts of heat that could damage the paint. Good video. I filmed one of my projects but never got to editing it.
Hey RJ ! I just wanted to thank you, a lot. After struggling during a least 1 & a half month, trying to cut the stem from the inside, i simply bought some sodium hydroxide and put my fork in it like you've done, and it took only 1 day to eat the frozen stem. So thank you very much for this video, and your other videos too. Keep going, all the best !
Oh boy ,,,,,, I tried all your methods and they are great Mr R J.... but this one is the easiest......well I learned something after the pounding for two days ,,,, thank you for being a great teacher mr RJ,,,,,
You are a god! Hella smart. Btw, your videos are the reason I have been able to grow deeper into my hobby. Thanks, keep it up!
RJ you're a damn absolute HERO.
I did something like this a few times a while back with seat posts. Lower concentrations will work but you change the fluid more often. Because once the sodium hydroxide has reacted with the aluminum it stops dissolving. The benefit of that is lower heat The higher concentration will react for longer periods of time and will create larger amounts of heat that could damage the paint. Good video. I filmed one of my projects but never got to editing it.
I don't know if I would use glass though, because that can get extremely hot.
Glass usually handles heat pretty well, short of pyrex, what would you use as a container for this concentration?
Fantastic idea. And what a great sight and feeling to see the clear hole.
RJ - this video earned a TU and subscription. I'm rebuilding a beach cruiser that's lived at the beach. I am struggling with this right now as I dissemble everything for a rust removing electrolysis bath. Handlebars are extremely rusted. (My life long experience suggests penetrating oils never really penetrate!)
I guess after I dissolve the stuck tube I'll treat the replacement stem with an aluminum anti-sieze compound such as "Loctite Heavy Duty Anti-Seize" or similar.
I like that pre-drill idea to speed up the dissolve. Good job.
It worked for me , It took 12 steps . Thank you!
Simple but clever setup. I'm gonna have a go at this myself I think.
Love your videos bud, thanks for all the great tips.
Awesome solution, RJ. Great video as always. Your Koga Miyata makes me jealous!!
great video. Thanks for posting and helping us all out. Kudos to you RJ!
Thanks!
I wish I seen this video last week. I had a frozen stem in the tube that I drilled out to 15/16 and then I was able to knock it out.
I tried all kind penetrating spray, tried pounding it out etc., nothing worked till I drilled it out.
I enjoy your videos, keep up the good work.
15/16? I assume it was a 1 1/8" fork?
Brilliant tip!
Galvanic fusion !! That was great 👍
thanks this help very well for my old road bike :)
rj you are a true Genius"
Hi RJ
Good job man! Koga Miyata are fine bikes and well worth to restore. You should keep it for yourself and show it to us here.
Cheers
Planning to keep it. I am making a video of the build. Kind of got stopped with the stuck stem.
Good to hear! They are highly sought after here in europe
Here, and there, and here, and there...
Nice channel.
I tried "guess where" but people were confused.
Well I wish I had watched this before I sheared my steerer tube trying to remove the stem after weeks of penetrating oils and vinegar soaks. Now to watch all of your seat tube videos before I even attempt to remove the seat post. It’s crazy to think that the bond between the aluminum stem and the steerer tube was stronger than the steerer tube itself.
Great idea! What's the kind of time scale of this video? Did it take a day, or weeks?
Excellent five stars ⭐️ RJ 👑 🇬🇧
молодец дядька!
i highly recommend doing this with hot water instead of normal cold water, its efficiency will surprise you
Trying this as we speak... thank you
Did it work?
@@maxd3g totally worked. Left it in the solution for about 3 weeks but it worked completely. Obvs you can try adding more drain cleaner half way through to up the concentration.
Hi! Wanted to know if it would be possible to just pour some of the lye mixture around the edges like how you would apply penetrating oil would also work to take the seized stem out. Any thoughts on doing it this way?
Persistence is key!!!
Wow, that was a dangerous job.
How do you dispose of the chemical safely and with no harm to the environment? I need to do this but need to discover if the stuff can be safely disposed of before I do.
Not sure what the piece is called but the ring at the base of the fork that would line up with the bottom cup of the head tube. Is that usually threaded on (vintage 80s french road bike)?
👍👍
RJ the science guy
exactly what i was looking for, thanks! I even bent my fork a bit, trying to get it out. Is there any chance i could straighten it, if i manage to get the stem out? and how long it's been sitting in there?
hydraulic/mechanical press to straighten it,apply pressure a little @ a time release pressure & check repeat as necessary til straight,this could soften the metal & it could bend again though.
You and me both. Nothing to lose now. Just experience to gain.
I have a steel quill stem seized in some alu forks, its not an issue as in a decent position so I am just going to keep using GT85 over the next few month's to start with whilst I use the bike
A few questions. 1- Am I right in assuming you first got the quill out, but the stem was hopelessly stuck in the steerer? 2 - how much total time did it take to dissolve the stem? 3- How did you do dispose of the spent solutions of lye/dissolved aluminum?
1. Not sure what you mean? 2. A couple days, but there was a lot of down time where the stuff would slow down and stop while I was sleeping or at work. 3. You can probably put it down the drain. That's what drain cleaners were meant for. And one of the actual ingredients of the drain cleaner I used is aluminum. That is where the heat comes from. The product of sodium hydroxide and aluminum is sodium aluminate which apparently is used as a water softener.
Thanks again for this great video! Can I use the drain cleaner to spill it in the sealed up stearing tube (bike upside down) instead of apple vinegar and let it work overnight? Or is it too dangerous?
You might be able to come up with a way to do it.
Very interesting RJ (cool seeing you on Bobke)
Huh? Do you mean a comment I made on one of his videos?
+RJ The Bike Guy Yes, I can't recall the specifics, just remember your name pop up in the comments
I was maybe one of his first 100 subscribers. :D
Hey RJ. I'm starting my first overhaul of a crappy beach cruiser I got for free. I have a seized stem, and cannot free the fork without getting the stem out.
I want to use this method to remove the stem. However, I'm really unsure how to identify the materials in the bike parts. How do I know it is made out of aluminum instead of steel or other materials? How do you differentiate? A magnet? or are there more methods?
Thanks so much for your help. I love the videos.
Steven Ferguson use a magnet to see if it is iron
I put in a lot of lye and covered it in a similar way but it all bubbled through the middle and damaged the shoulders which were also aluminium. It works though
Thanks but have a question. Will this remove the paint if not being careful?
I didn't have any issues. But you probably want to minimize contact with the paint.
Nasty stuff. That's why Blind Willy Johnson is not known as Willy Johnson...
Puedo usar el ácido clorhídrico, en lugar de hidróxido de sodio
No, se comeria al acero tambien
Is it possile to weld a better piece of grip and pull it out?
Maybe. You have to worry about applying force and maybe twisting fork. It's also aluminum. I am not set up to weld aluminum.
Hi RJ, I like your videos.
I thought i knew about fixing bike but after watch some of your videos, I realize I knew about 10% of it. Thank you for helping with the missing 90% !
I have a question. I'm unemployed here in Canada, so I decided I was going to try to fix old bikes and resell them.
I usually spend 2 to 3 hours cleaning, touching up paint, lubricating and tuning bikes I bought for around $15.
I find it very difficult to resell used clean, ready to use bikes for $50-60.
People seem to prefer to buy a dud for $30 or a Walmart lemon for $79 instead of a good bike for $50-60.
We both know most of them won't clean/lube/maintain the $30 bike.
And Walmart's bikes need tuning which they are not going to be willing/able to do either.
So they would be much better off buying my good used bikes for $50-60.
I can see you also replace part, which can get expensive and time consuming.
How do you manage to still get money after all your work ?
What you show us, is it a side business or your hobby ?
Do you buy/fix/resell bike or do you fix people's bikes ?
I hope your channel will grow and that you will keep sharing your knowledge for a very long time !
Many thanks RJ !
I don't make much money from the bikes. I am more into making the videos. I have full time job during the day. I really enjoy working on bikes, and making videos. I buy the bikes and work on them as I want. I will tune up friends bikes for free, but I don't work on other people's bikes as a business. I completely avoid Walmart type bikes. They are junk and I hate working on them. So I don't. I buy used quality bikes and work on those. But the goal is more the videos than making money from selling bikes. Many bikes I break even on, and even lose money on some. But those are usually the ones I get the videos out of.
RJ The Bike Guy
Thanks for you answer !
I will have to find something else to pay the rent while looking for a new job...
I love fixing stuff. I fix tools, bikes and I even fixed a boat (took me 3 years...).
I'm friend with a 76 yo German gentleman. He was a kid in Berlin during the war. He spends his time fixing stuffs. It's like an old habit not to waste anything.
I lived in Mexico for a few years, and Mexicans are like this too. No dumpster diving in Mexico, people don't throw anything.
This kind of mentality is long gone in western countries. Even in Canada where people claim to be "green".
Too bad.
Take care !
Hey, there is no reason why you can't make a go of it. Try flipping bikes. Cheap bikes, better bikes, whatever you can find. Maybe do bike repairs for people. Who knows. Find what works, and what doesn't.
How did you dispose of the liquid in the two containers?
you could neutralise the lye solution with distilled vinegar, dump the aluminium pieces, and then into the drain, i am thinking. a straight pour would not be good
@@clockwork9827 It's safer to dilute in water instead. Pour off some mixture in a new water vessel (don't add water to your mixture!). Then again. The goal is to reduce the corrosive power of the solution, which works with dilution in water. With vinegar, you create a reaction that generates more heat and gases and can precipitate stuff as well in your mixture.
Diluted hydroxide or acidic solutions are safe in the drain. You can never dilute too much.
I can use hydrochloric acid instead of sodium hydroxide
Hello my friend. I have the same problem. It is rusty
What if the stem is steel? I have one fork wich is had steel stem stuck into it i used caustic soda and doesnt work it work on aluminum,what do you recommend to remove it
Steel in steel is much easier. Lots of penetrating oil. Seafoam Deep Creep is supposed to be really good.
@@RJTheBikeGuy thanks RJ! 😊
If my quill is from still, it won't help me?
If the stem is stem, then no this won't work. Just use lots of penetrating oil.
The king of stem removal strikes again!
I got a frozen seat post. Would the drain cleaner eat away the paint of my frame?
It can damage it, yes.
ruclips.net/video/P-YpmDx86d0/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/S3ek2GeZzE0/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/LJLZ9Ojtr80/видео.html
How did you remove the fork without removing the stem?
PLEASE HELP!!
I had to cut the stem off.
@@RJTheBikeGuy Thank you for your reply, sorry if this sounds stupid but once you cut the stem of will you be able to remove the fork? My stem is seized but I want to replace my fork as and stem so I don't mind sacrificing the stem/fork.
I thought maybe you could make a video removing a frozen seatpost using this method.
Yes, but I don't like the idea of the method for a seat post. I had to repeated replace the sodium hydroxide here. A lot hard inside a frame. The lye solution is likely to get everywhere including all over the frame messing up the paint. It would be very messy!
Your suggestion that using higher concentrations of NaOH would speed the process is likely to be wrong. There is a limit to how much NaOH you can dissolve in water. The technique you used, of replacing the solution from time to time is more likely to be near optimum. Life interferes, of course. It would probably be optimum to replace the solution every hour or two, or when you notice the bubbling subsiding, but sleep and work are important, too.
i doubt he was anywhere near the upper limit of a high NaOH concentration. I've made 30% solutions and higher in the lab but the bigger problem would be the danger of using a higher concentration. They produce amazing heat and also will strip paint.
+Ian Loughead Good points. The stuff RJ used was only about 35% NaOH according to the MSDS. In fact, The stuff he used contains about 7% aluminum, that is counterproductive in this application. These facts may also explain why RJ got away with using a (probably) poorly annealed, soda lime glass container. hdsupplysolutions.com/wcsstore/ThdsMroUs/product/fm/additional/MS/MSDS-112705.pdf
He's not anywhere near the upper limit. You can easily create 10N sodium hydroxide solutions; these smell a bit and are best used in a fume hood; definitely not with one's head right over it! If he had tried that concentration, the vase would likely have exploded, since he poured the crystals before the water (NEVER DO THAT!). Just rinsing off the stem in water then putting it back in the basic solution would have created a visible reaction.
The fact he did not notice (or mention) a reaction is that his concentration was quite low. In fact, these crystals are nowhere near purity as they're way too big compared to pure NaOH powder for the likely concentration he got.
how did you remove the fork?
I cut the stem above the headset, and then remove it as normal.
@@RJTheBikeGuy thank you I just found out how quill stems work
The one in this video is not the norm. LOL
Sir, What to do for frozen iron fork and stem?
If it's a steel stem in a steel steerer, then that is just rust. Soak it with a good penetrating oil, and keep working it, and it will come out. Ordinary rust is nowhere as hard as galvanic corrosion.
@@RJTheBikeGuy OK Sir, and thank you. I will try.
@@MrRabi001 do it work?
@@arthurmcsad8887 I tried with washing detergent water and. I soak whole night it. Next day i tried with oil and worked for my steel frame and fork
@@MrRabi001 i'm going to do it myself if the bicycle shop can't
How does one safely dispose of the liquid after the stem has dissolved?
Down the drain. Drain cleaner is designed to go down the drain. There is actually aluminum in this drain cleaner. That is where the heat comes from. The byproduct of lye and aluminum is hydrogen and sodium aluminate which is used in water softeners.
But do make sure to flush with lots of water.
NEVER EVER POUR THE CRYSTALS BEFORE WATER!!! This creates an exothermic (heat releasing) reaction that can blow up your glass vase if it's too big. It is the same for both acidic and basic solutions, or crystals/powder. The issue is that the crystals are "pure"; adding water dissolves them and releases heat. If the crystals are there before the water, the initial water falling on them creates an ultra-high concentration of sodium hydroxide and releases tons of heat, with little water to absorb it initially. That is a recipe for disaster.
ALWAYS put the water first, then the crystals (or concentrated solution). This way, the whole body of water is always there to absorb the generated heat. It is much safer this way.
We say in French "L'acide dans l'eau, c'est beau ; l'eau dans l'acide, c'est un suicide". It translates into acid in water is fine, but water in acid is a great danger... Bases work in the same way.
By the way, neutralizing an acid with a base (or the reverse) also creates an exothermic reaction that can be dangerous. Only do it as a last resort. If possible, neutralize strong acids and bases with buffers instead. Labs commonly use phosphate-buffered saline, EDTA or EGTA, but there are plenty of others. Buffers work by absorbing the protons (acid) and hydroxide (bases) in the solution.
White vinegar Is best to solve this type of problems and to remove coroded inside and out.🚵🏻♂️
Vinegar won't touch aluminum oxide. ruclips.net/video/bGqV5KE7cb8/видео.html
Warming would also speed up the reaction.
Dissolving solid NaOH will get rather warm by itself.
+Mark Holm The reaction of NaOH and water with Aluminum is also exothermic. Both the initial dissolution of NaOH and the subsequent reaction with aluminum will tend to keep the solution warm. Dissolving NAOH in water can heat the solution enough to make it boil.
I was actually worried about the thrift store vase not being able to take the heat.
+William Hitchens So was I, particularly after it got a bit etched by the NaOH.
Nope, because it's an exothermic reactions. It already gives off heat. It's likely the vase would not have survived. Furthermore, there would be more fumes.
yep--lutefisk to dissolve my froqen stem
For the benefit of any Brits watching this, "lye" is caustic soda.
haha der arbeitet mit allen mitteln,...ich hoffe bei mir gehts ohne salzsäure...:)
It's not hydrochloric acid. It's sodium hydroxide. It's not even an acid, it's a base.
RJ The Bike Guy
ok, thx...
More lye!
The other obvious lesson from a stuck stem is that expander stems and seatposts should always be greased before assembly. I prefer Vaseline (petrolatum, petroleum jelly) because, it is probably more water resistant than and certainly is a poorer lubricant than lubricating greases. For this job, you want the water resistance, but you really would prefer not to have the lubrication.
this point looks interesting!
I have issues with the seatpost turning around although firmly tighten up when using grease.
I was thinking of an 'anti-sieze' but a friend cautioned to be sure to use one specifically compatible with aluminum. See McMaster -Carr or just find "Loctite® Heavy Duty Anti-Seize" on AMazon.
Gracias por todo lo que enseña en sus vídeos
Otra solución es ruclips.net/video/BtEJDOOWxTg/видео.html
Yo lo he conseguido y no es muy costoso ,ni económico ni trabajoso
Gracias
100th like
rust inside the steerer tube means rust at the welds, possible rust in the lower legs... etc. too much liability. someone gets hurt, then what? new one and call it a day.
if you just want to see if it can be done, cool. then destroy it.
The issue was not rust, but galvanic corrosion which is aluminum oxide.
I can use hydrochloric acid instead of sodium hydroxide
You'd attack the steel.