Paul and Morgan in "Shiny Happy People" Duggar Documentary
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2023
- #atheist #deconstruction
P&M Original Video: ruclips.net/user/livethfLfrDB...
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I didn’t take the same thing away from the documentary about Paul and Morgan. I took it as the IBLP and Christian fundamentalism has influenced the current church, politics, government, schools and police departments and most people involved don’t realize where it came from.
That's how I took it too. And same with the Joshua Generation. The point of it IS to be subtle and influence every aspect of life. The way I interpreted P&M being lumped in with them is how much what they say and what is being taught in their churches and on conservative media is the trickle down effect that has been the marriage of fundamentalism and politics for decades. It's like in the Devil Wears Prada - you think you made a choice (to believe this, to wear that), but really it was because of what I chose that gives you the illusion of choice.
@@Speak9009 I was raised Southern Baptist. But so many teachings were influenced by IBLP. I didn’t know that. Nor did I know that portions of the wisdom booklets were being used in the public elementary school that my child attended in the late 90’s. They just told me about that this week. It’s everywhere.
@@butterbeanqueen8148 I had a similar situation. I was raised Roman Catholic, and we were also taught a surprising amount of IBLP content when I was still practicing. I didn't realize that a lot of it was IBLP until I started learning more about that group in the last few years. We had SO MANY Sunday school lessons and homilies based off that umbrella concept, putting wife and children under the husband/father, growing up.
Yes you don't have to know what IBLP is to be deeply influenced by them
100% agree, I thought the same thing.
It doesn't sound like Paul and Morgan were done as dirty as they like to think they were. From what is described in the part about submitting, the point of the juxtaposition is to show that even the more mainstream, online influencer types come closer to being like the IBLP than they realize. And of course, Paul and Morgan aren't going to like the implications of that. But I don't like the implications of quoting verses about how wives should submit, so I don't feel bad about watching them be uncomfortable.
And also the way Morgan explained what they were told the documentary was about, I was like, yeah, that seems pretty accurate to what I just watched? Sure, there can be different interpretations and expectations, but zooming out I felt like that was a good overview to what the documentary was about.
Yea, I agree. It just sounds like they were self delusional, assuming everyone is down to clown with their pretty out there beliefs. They didn't bother reading any fine print or asking the producers real questions. They were naive, but they could have looked into it at all and probably would have seen the reality. Plus, it sounds like the producers cut a lot, according to Jen, and made them look less extreme in the final cut xD
I expect the ONLY reason they think they are any sort of "moral majority" is how they have self encapsulated their lives in their church and religion. So I guess when you never peek outside your sheltered, privileged RUclips lifestyle. It might be a shock to think not everyone thinks gay people shouldn't exist...
To add to that, every time Paul and Morgan said they want bad actors exposed they did everything they could to imply those bad actors aren’t really Christian. Paul and Morgan refuse to acknowledge that their brand of fundamentalism is part of the system that results in abuse. They might not be the most extreme Christian abusers, but they’re on the same branch of extremist and abusive Christianity and that’s not something they can accept
Also, whenever you sign on to do projects like this you’re kind of taking a leap of faith because you have no idea what the end product will be like. I think P & M need to take some responsibility for that. Contrapoints released a video recently where she talked about how she did an interview for a podcast with Megan Phelps-Roper about JK Rowling that she now deeply regrets, because the end product what not what she thought it would be when she initially agreed to do it. She took responsibility and owned up to her part in it.
Exactly this. I think that the production team probably gave them the impression that they were going to come off looking better than they really did (you're not those awful IBLPers after all!) especially because as a trans person, I've heard a WHOLE LOT lately about the shady practices used by authors and documentarians who want to expose the opposing side. But most of the people I know who have been used like that (most recently Natalie Winn in the Witch Trials of She Who Will Not be Named) own up to their part in it, that the red flags were there and they should have just paid closer attention, and have apologized for the damage done.
In this case, the show also had other people on who had nothing to do with IBLP or even Christian Fundamentalism, but were experienced in related areas they wanted to tie into. Like the woman who worked in reality TV who they had there to talk about...reality TV. Not everyone needs to necessarily be well-versed in the main focus of the documentary, because to provide the "360 view" they would need to tie together other parts of this puzzle. One big piece of that is the role TLC and reality TV played in the abuse.
Another puzzle piece is the Paul and Morgan/purity culture influencer aspect because although the documentary was focused primarily on the IBLP, this problem is not LIMITED to the IBLP. Paul even says here that his family was kinda IBLP adjacent, but I think the show did a good job of demonstrated how the IBLP infiltrated churches and communities even where they weren't necessarily attending the seminars or using the homeschool curriculum. It's an ideology that P&M help to spread even further, whether or not they're actual card-carrying members of the IBLP. Whether or not they even know what the IBLP (or the Joshua Generation) is.
In fact, it's pretty common to not know the actual origins of even your deepest held beliefs. That's one of the points of deconstruction.
I may be the minority here but I can see exactly why the documentary chose to cover Paul and morgan the way they did and it makes perfect sense to me.
In an earlier point in the documentary, they had made the point that IBLP was infiltrating otherwise “normal” churches and that their radical views were becoming normalized. You can see how fundamentalist churches differ from other churches and in those differences, you will find gothards teachings. Growing up in a fundamentalist household, I recognized many of the gothards teachings as part of my everyday life.
The fundie beliefs that most hurt me growing up were directly taken from the IBLP though I didn’t know it at the time. Since I wasn’t homeschooled and was allowed to wear jeans, I thought my brand of Christianity had nothing to do with the homeschool kids but I was wrong.
So much of my upbringing was IBLP and I truly believe the IBLP core values have seeped into fundamentalist churches everywhere and that’s why they lumped fundamentalist together in that clip. What I heard was “these people are spreading IBLP messages but they don’t even know it and would never call it that.”
I took it in the exact same way. Even if you're not IBLP, IBLP still infiltrated the fundamental Christian's cultural zaitgeist in a way that is still making an impact through Christian influencers, whether those Christian influencers like it or not.
That’s the feeling I get too. Paul and Morgan spread a lot of abusive, manipulative, and hateful messaging that is pretty similar to IBLP. It’s sort of like pointing out the right wing radicalization pipeline, there are examples of less fundamental people who’s purpose is to draw in newcomers to their cult. Paul and Morgan are just an earlier turn on the road to extremism
+
I had no idea the IBLP was a thing until watching the documentary, but the umbrella illustration was drilled into my head during my childhood.
I was in a conservative evangelical church and absolutely saw the "umbrella of protection" illustration multiple times in different sermons from our pastor. It was almost the exact image from the IBLP textbook shown in the documentary. I had no idea that is where it came from until now.
I grew up in the same style of evangelism that Paul and Morgan follow, and it does lead to the same kind of abuse that the iblp leads to. Just because you did not see it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Extreme ideology can breed predators no matter what that ideology is.
I appreciate your thoughts - thanks! I agree that just because we may not see it doesn’t mean it’s not happening.
@The Antibot thank you for acknowledging my comment. I have seen a lot in evangelical communities and have experienced the gross things that happen. 3 of my youth pastors were predators. It's such a common thing in the community that I thought all men were like that until my mid 20s.
And this is the impression that I got - not that P&M are literally part of the IBLP or that they believe the exact same things, but that the things they DO believe and promote still lead to similar outcomes and protect and encourage predators.
Exactly! If you're in fundamentalism it can seem like too broad a brush is being used. After you exit this insular world you can see how similar it all is, and that the theology discussions on minutiae are only a distraction from the big picture which is harm and suppression.
@@Katie-cc6gs It seems to me that the common christian practice of equating all things that are considered sinful tends to result in christians feeling just as bad about healthy sexual urges like the urge to have consensual sex as an adult with another adult with no coercion, just because it happens outside of marriage or outside of heterosexuality, as they would feel about causing harm to a child. As much as right wing christians tend to project the image of child abuser onto the LGBTQ+ community, those same christians are the ones who make people within their own community feel like god will forgive them no matter what they do but people within their community will judge them and shun them and maybe even excommunicate them if they carry out healthy sexual urges in a healthy way outside of the rules of their religion to the same extent as if they coerce and/or intimidate a child to abuse the child and use their position of power and intimidation over a child to silence their victim. This is a big part of what I think explains the discrepancy in the likelihood of christians to be abusers versus the likelihood of LGBTQ+ people to be abusers. LGBTQ+ people generally have to question societal rules (especially religious rules) just to understand and accept who they are so they are far less likely to grant validity to the arbitrary and false equivalency of healthy sexual acts between consenting adults and abuse which is often portrayed by christian organizations. It is a serious problem that this type of christian refuses to acknowledge the way that this ideology sickens the minds of people growing up in this ideology.
I don't feel like Paul and Morgan were treated unfairly. The documentary simply showed how they really feel and think.
I feel the same way… there are several other comments like yours! I feel like some people aren’t comprehending the documentary. Paul and Morgan are not understanding that their ideologies came from the same sentiments as IBLD (whatever the acronym is😅😂)
They’re horrible people.
Yeah, it does show that these ideas are out there past the Duggar’s influence, but it didn’t really show that there are other types of, more liberal, Christian influencers out there or belief systems like the protestant churches with the gay flags out front.
@@gabriellemolinaro6750 its all cut from the same cloth of bad reasoning tho the softer stuff will inevitebly lead to the harder stuff because the book itself the religion is based upon is full of outdated unhelpful cultural rules
I think far more grace is being given to Paul and Morgan than they deserve. While they might not share some of the more extreme beliefs of the IBLP, when it comes down to it their core beliefs are the same - women should be submissive to men, children should be raised differently depending on their gender, being anywhere on the LGBTQ+ spectrum is wrong, and if you're not living your life in a way that they deem godly enough, you're a sinner who deserves to rot in hell. They don't get a pass just because they're not *quite* as extreme; they're still awful people. What was shown in the documentary was mostly their own videos, so they can whine all they want about being taken out of context or where the documentary chose to show their videos but neither of those things change the actual content of the videos. If they're so concerned with coming across as bad people perhaps they should critically reflect on their beliefs, the content they've put out, and how similar it is to the IBLP and other extremist churches/organizations, but they won't because they are so unbelievably hypocritical. They rant about how the documentary was "agenda-driven", as if their content isn't. They complain that they feel judged and misrepresented when they have no problem judging and misrepresenting anyone who doesn't believe exactly the same as them, including literal abuse victims. They deserve the criticism that's come their way.
It's funny they rant about being taken out of context because in the clips that were shown in the documentary, the context genuinely doesn't make it better lol.
There is fundamentalist which lead to abuse then there's biblical Christianity Paul and Morgan are just Biblical Christian
Out of respect I don't think you know any Christian core views both men and women have to submit to each other but they must first submit to God however God has made men to be the leaders of the household, boys and girls should be raised equally and treated the same however they are different genders which means they're not the same in every aspect, and
The biblical belief is that homosexuality Behavior is considered a sin in the Christian faith because God designed sex for a man and woman in marriage God only created male and female to be male and female we are all sinners and we are in need for God grace which means we are all in a road to hell because we all broken the law God.
However if you repent turn to Jesus Christ and sacrifice your life two him you'll be forgiven off your sins and you'll be saved from Eternal damnation those are just basic Christian beliefs
You're not awful people for being biblically sound Christians to documentary is agenda-driven even though expose real problems and form of abuse that the church and church leaders have it just wants to attack all Christianity
‘They are awful people’ wow. Do you actually believe that?
@@MusiKo14 Exactly, and the whole "taken out of context" argument is wild when most of what was shown was THEIR OWN VIDEOS. There is no context that would make what they spew in their content less reprehensible
@@smalltalk1373 Do I believe that Paul and Morgan are awful people? Yes, I do.
I appreciate the measured, thoughtful perspective you have presented here.
The one thing that stuck out for me is how Paul and Morgan may have a genuine complaint about how their views were not fully explored. But I have yet to see them ever extend the same grace to any group that they have commented about publicly. They very much live in a black and white world when it comes to how they see others, down to calling Jill and Derrick Dillard as not Christians. But where I am sitting, I might be one of the group going to hell in their opinion, but I am so different ideologically from the Dillards or the Olliges.
It drives me batty that I spend so much time researching, reading, watching, trying to understand these people that literally don’t think I should have basic human rights because of my queer identity as one example. But they are somehow the victim here.
It is amazing how they can suddenly apply nuance and understanding when focused on themselves but not for other people. Really shows how their worldview inherently dehumanizes those that don’t fit into their narrow idea of how people should be.
@@uncannedspaghetti it is heartbreaking in a real way. They get so close sometimes. They are absolutely correct, they probably were misled and may be misunderstood. But they still don’t have the ability or desire to reflect upon their own actions and words. Because as long as they follow that book in the way they believe is the literal truth then they will always be right.
I might never get over them thinking the Dillards aren’t Christians. That’s rich.
When did they say the dillards aren’t christian? That’s wild.
Yep! Non binary person here! According to Paul and Morgan I should just pick a gender…
@@lbocc809 they didn’t specifically say that, but they said the doc didn’t feature any believing Christians, when Jill was a large part of it.
I feel like Paul and Morgan have a lot more in common with the IBLP than they'd like to admit - coming from a background very similar to theirs, you learn to talk about gender roles in a way that is a little more PC or "prettied-up", but when push comes to shove the core beliefs are two sides of the same coin.
Great job! While I agree that Paul and Morgan were selectively edited, I think the difference between them and IBLP is one of degree, not category. Paul flat out says this when he states that he and Morgan are simply the "right" kind of extreme. I'm sure members of the IBLP would say the same thing. I think this is what happens when you set your standards based on interpretations of a religious text, rather than tangible results.
I see where you’re come from, but I think they started using the word “extreme” to describe themselves because that’s what they’re being called by others.
I don't think Paul and Morgan believe they are extremists, they seem to think they are the mainstream majority, but I think the response that they are reading things "right" is very telling. It comes off as their objection to IBLP's policies being in the incorrect interpretation of scripture rather than actual harm. I can see how this translates to their opinions on the LGBTQ+ community for example, which most would call damaging, but they simply dismiss as being the "correct" interpretation.
I don't think Paul and Morgan get off entirely scot-free here; they believe in this magical God-designed hierarchy to the world, where God is in charge of men who are in charge of women, and wives must always defer to husbands, children must always refer to adults, etc etc etc, and that is a path that leads EASILY to abuse of lots of different kinds. They can say "oh, we don't do that, that isn't us," but they are drinking deep from the same really unhealthy well.
The IBLP tried to „infiltrate“ as many churches as they could, that is part of the documentary as well. Especially southern Baptist churches and the homeschooling environment (which is something Paul grew up in) so it’s no coincidence that they have similar belief systems. They are not synonymous, but there is an intellectual heritage they have and that was addressed in the series and they don’t like it- but the documentary is not wrong drawing that connection imho
YES thank you for saying this!
OMG! I completely agree! I just mention that the ideas came from these types of organized religious. Civil right and the women’s movement happened in the 1950-60s… we should’ve been going in the direction of fighting for humanity, rather than right wing issues!
From an atheist perspective, how do you objectively morally substantiate that abuse is absolutely wrong? Is that merely your relative opinion? By what authority whatsoever do you make the complaint that Paul & Morgan are doing absolute wrong?
I’m asking in sincerity to hear from atheists how they substantiate their moral arguments against others. Of course I’m not saying abuse is right but I’m asking you about the grounding of your own worldview since you speak about Paul & Morgan in such a way.
@@IsaiahPatrick0115 From a theist perspective, how do you objectively morally substantiate that abuse is absolutely wrong? Did God say it to you directly, or is it just your subjective interpretation of some writings that you think reflect the opinion of God? And even if God did say it, the idea that "whatever God says about good and evil is true" is no more objective than "whatever produces the most good for the most people is good", or any other moral claim. There's nothing magical about invoking God that makes our moral judgments objective.
"I think God would disapprove" is no more objective or absolute than "I think that that would be mean and unfair" or "That leads to a dysfunctional society" as a moral criterion.
I ground my worldview, and in particular the moral judgments in it, in my own beliefs and ideas and intuitions, as informed by the society I live in. Just like you do! You just include God as one of the factors in your calculations, whereas I don't.
I think both things can be true. I don’t think Paul and Morgan are lying, and I don’t think the SHP documentary meant to deceive them. SHP was only given four short episodes to tell their story, so of necessity a lot was likely left on the cutting room floor. Since P&M seem to be the only Christian influencers they spoke to, they likely didn’t have enough to flesh out an episode covering it, which they may not have known when interviewing P&M, and they also likely had to cut it to make time for the more central story.
This is exactly my thinking. I believe the producers had intentions to include much more than they were able to in the end.
I know Jen from Fundie Fridays says a lot was left on the cutting room floor hence her wish for a Second Season
Yes, absolutely agree with you.
It sounds like a lot of the stuff that was cut from their particular interview would have made them. Look like even more horrible people. The producers might have saved them a lot more flack from their wild, shallow takes!
That doesn’t mean it’s ok to misrepresent them. If there wasn’t enough time to get into this topic, then they could have left out all of Paul and Morgan’s interview.
I am glad the doc pierced the fundie bubble. I hope, if there is a second season, the creators can expand on the commonalities shared by these Christian groups and influencers. Many Christians distance themselves completely from groups like IBLP when negative attention arises, yet fail to critically examine the ideological similarities that exist. I could be wrong, but it seemed like the documentary portrayed IBLP as a fundamental source of harmful ideology pervasive within the church, rather than acknowledging the reality that numerous evangelical groups including IBLP have been shaped by cultural forces spanning centuries. I would like to see more on that, as well as deeper insight into the beliefs themselves, maybe from the perspective of Christian theologians.
Agree, I think it could be interesting to see a doc on the rise of Christian influencers, and in it discuss how some of them spread harmful ideas. It seemed like they touched on that a bit in this doc, but it was so brief and completely within the larger context of the IBLP that it made this direct connection between Christian influencers and the IBLP that I don’t think is really there.
@@theantibot I think the link they attempted to make was between fundamentalist/Christian Nationalist/ Joshua Generation influencers and IBLP ideals, not Christian influencers in general.
Im very impressed that you gave Paul and Morgan far more grace and understanding than ive ever seen them give anyone else for this. Y'all have a great place in the christian influencer commentary landscape, always with great integrity.
Seriously. This channel makes me realize how sensational many other channels are. They rile up emotions because that's what gets views. Drew and Taylor are so much more calm, rational, and empathetic.
Very well said. 😊
Agreed. I appreciate the rage induced by hearing the hateful rhetoric, or just bizzare body language cold-reads of Porgan, but GMS and Antibot just get to the real problematic behavior.
Honestly I think there’s is room for both. When I was leaving christianity, I needed people who would point out rhetoric that had been used to traumatize me and be passionate about it. It helped me really get the picture that what had happened to me wasn’t ok. But it’s important to have more than one voice and tone to listen to, and I think their approach works better for me now that I’m farther along in my deconstruction journey. And personal attacks are never ok.
To steal a line from Jim Jefferies, there are good atheists and bad atheists. I guess I fall into the bad atheist category because my reaction to Paul and Morgan on this one is: Ahwww, the Christian hypocrites were manipulated and lied to. Pardon me while I play my mini violin.
This was my take. Especially after Morgan mocked the abuse victims. (It wasn’t brought up in this video).
They make fun of rape victims and vote for laws that encourage violence based on gender identity. I truly could not care less if they are deceived or tricked. Paul literally mocks the concept of consent.
I don't think they were even THAT misled. It sounded like they gave honest answers and were upset at how well they fit into the mold of nasty, hatemongering influencers
This!
😊 lol! I feel the same way… awe the Christian hypocrisy makes me laugh! On that note, I feel like the biggest scam in the world is organized religion, coming in 2nd to the 1%!
So odd that Paul just defaults and defaults to "agenda-driven"... Content has agendas! If you're making something to put out into the world, it most likely has "an agenda". I just find it to be a really weak arguement against something - to dismiss something simply because it "has an agenda" will dismiss everything. It's just that you don't see the "agenda" in what you agree with, Paul.
And does Paul @25:52 LEGITIMATELY feel he isn't part of Christian extremeism??? Because that is wild to me that he would consider himself moderate in his belief.
Editing to add because the above may not be totally fair -- I still find their deflection of "we're not like that we're just living our lives" to be exceptionally misleading. They are making youtube videos about how their understanding of/actions on their faith is RIGHT and everyone else's is wrong. They may not be involved in the outright abuse of the IBLP, or even share many of its values, but they are still contributing (or at least trying to contribute) to the rise of harmful fundamentalism. The fact that they won't acknowledge that they are not just "living their life" is frustrating. Sorry the above is rambly - I just am frustrated by the deflection but not quite sure how to phrase it correctly.
It does still definitely sound like the docuseries suggested they are more involved in specifically the IBLP than they are though, which is not great.
@@avesavisno one ever sees themselves as extremists (or, I should say very few would). Its not shocking at all. Every villain sees themselves as the hero.
@@jasonGamesMaster That's true enough. I guess it ends up as more an "I'm normal, everyone else is just extreme around me". I just always think "they have to know they're 'out there', right?" But I guess that doesn't have to be the case!
Paul and Morgan are so agenda-driven that’s it’s laughable for them to keep using this deflection.
They may not be IFLP, but P&M are promote a very narrow view of “true Christians “ and some of they content can be harmful.
I thought it was really gross to say that right away about the documentary. That it was made just to make money. When that clearly wasn't the case. The way he just belittled everything that was shown in that documentary into "don't trust these documentaries. They are made just to make money". That showed me they didn't even watch it. And if they did... they turned out everything and just waiting for their time to be showed
Paul and Morgan stated, in their video, that they "stood by" what was said in the doc. They have spent days complaining about it and making it all about them, and making a mockery of the victims by calling them "not Christians". I'm also not sure you saw Morgan's little "put sad music over anything like 'I had to pee' and it sounds dramatic" little dig at the victims towards the end of their video. At the end of the day, these two are transphobic, cruel, and full of misogyny and I just don't think they deserve an hour of defense when they've never shown such grace to any of the many, many people they openly mock and denigrate. I understand you feel there was an injustice here, but do you really believe people who post such hateful content as they do are worthy of this much of a defense?
I agree that P&M have slighted the victims by some of the things they said in their video, which is not okay. I think they’re speaking from their anger towards the doc team and aren’t being careful with their words. This is a critique I’ve had for them since I started reacting to their vids - they seem to not be careful with their words, don’t really edit anything out, and contradict themselves quite a bit.
I don’t exactly agree, though, that they’re making it all about themselves. I wish they spent more time acknowledging the victims, but they were made a part of this whole thing the minute the doc team asked them for an interview. I don’t think it’s unreasonable or selfish for them to continue a dialogue that they were invited into in this first place.
Yeah, don't really appreciate them defending P+M for a full hour. Feels very "both-sidesy." The reality is, P+M are more ideallogically aligned with IBLP than not. I think the doc hit the nail on the head and rightfully called out the harmful rhetoric being repackaged for a new generation of Christians. Just because P+M aren't the worst example of this happening doesn't mean they deserve this level of defense.
@@sarahch15 I think we spent a good part of this vid critiquing them just as much as defending them. Did you watch the video?
@@theantibot I think what a lot of people are frustrated about with P+M is that they refuse to acknowledge that its fundamentalism that lead to this kind of abuse. Every time P+M acknowledged the victims or the abuse they said it was just bad actors who were “abusing” Christianity. They won’t acknowledge that it’s the fundamentalism that enabled the abuse. They think the fundamentalism is fine. There were a lot of points in the video where that criticism was kind of missed or glossed over.
During their entire opening acknowledgement they framed it in a way to protect Christian fundamentalism and separate it from the abuse when it absolutely can’t be. Rather than thinking it was a good way to start the video I heard it as an attempt at running defense for fundamentalism. I didn’t see their inclusion as framing them as equally evil to IBLP, I saw it as them being presented as part of the pipeline to it. They’re firmly situated as a stop on the road to fundamentalist bigotry and abuse even if they aren’t the tail end of it. And until they understand that I don’t know that they deserve to be given this wall of separation.
@The Antibot I did, twice actually. This is a really dismissive comment. It felt like you spent a lot of time arguing why P+M aren't as bad as the IBLP and I don't think anyone is arguing that they are. But they are spreading dangerous rhetoric and it's not okay that the only video you post that addresses the SHP doc ends up ultimately being a P+M defense video.
I'm amused because, the point of their video is to talk about how they felt misrepresented and judged. But, by the end, they have resorted to misrepresenting and disregarding the victims, the documentary, and ex-christians.
I'm not surprised, nor am I accusing them of hypocrisy. I do think it illustrates how belief is structured to reroute information towards its own protection. Christians never get to address how these extreme views are rooted on the bible (even if you ignore de OT, Paul's letters are all they needed to support those views).
"Belief is structured to reroute information towards its own protection". Profound and true.
I like all of the content you cover, but I think these ones where you and Drew cover hyper-Christian culture and purity culture couples really fill a gap in atheist/skeptic/deconversion RUclipsr space.
Ĉu vi parolas Esperanton? Mi tre amas Esperanton!
That former insider perspective is so good about their coverage.
What do you mean a gap? That seems like all internet atheist content. Covering and talking about more moderate Christians and accurately representing how most tend to engage with their religion seems to be the gap that needs covering. Everyone talks about purity culture, and everyone talks about Girl Defined/Paul and Morgan.
@@meripwallace
I might be wrong, but I think when the commenter said 'fill the gap,' the commenter means that our hosts know both the ultra-religious side and the atheist side, and how they coincide with one another. Thus, filling the gap of knowledge that would have been missed if our hosts were purely atheist or purely religious.
@@badger1296 a lot of atheist commentary youtubers were also religious though. Jimmy Snow, Jaclyn Glenn, etc... that's a large part of the reason many of them get into it and colors a lot of the criticism they have of these videos
My wife & I are Christians, and we just left the Mennonites (our grandparents left the Amish when they were young). We loved the series, and didn’t feel attacked like P&M do (cause they’re still kinda fundie, like y’all said). It was eye-opening for us to identify IBLP influences in our upbringing
So true! And systemic… not so much attacking Paul and Morgan. But the point was that, that is where they got their ideologies.
Boggles my mind how people could see what harm religion can cause, but still blindly embrace it.
If they see it and still embrace it, then they are condoning the harm.
“Quiver-full” is also seen outside the IBLP. I was in an evangelical church that had a mixture of quiver-full and Christian Patriarchy. But it was not a doctrine of the church or necessarily taught. It comes from a strict, literal interpretation of the Bible. So you will see that in many different denominations.
The non-denom church we left didn’t teach it at all, but quite a few prominent and faithful members were quiverfulls.
Even got told by an elder (as an offhand joking kind of comment) that my wife and I need to have more kids to “outbreed the Muslims”.
@@nasonguy I'm sorry you had that experience. Our church was similar and it's triggering to watch documentaries like shiny happy people. Makes me remember looking around at the congregation as a teen and seeing a room of fakers .
@@abigail9791 That one experience was more bizarre and offensive than traumatic and hurtful.
I am hesitant to watch SHP though for fear of what it’s going to dredge up.
@@nasonguy I hear you. Proceed with caution and support if you choose to watch. As for that church members comment, makes you wonder what he says at home if he so casually said that in public !
The main problem with religious people in general, and Paul and Morgan in this case, is that they always claim to be the sole, true practitioners of said faith and everyone else of the same faith is just doing it wrong. However, they never personally call out those people and explain why or what exactly they are doing wrong. Instead they get upset over topics that have nothing to do with their own faith, their own lives and their own views.
Ah yes, the No True Scotsman Fallacy.
"One does not have to operate with great malice to do great harm. The absence of empathy & understanding are sufficient" I hope drew and taylor see their true colors eventually. I use to defend p & m too ... i dont anymore smh once the mask comes off i cant put it back on
Love this balanced breakdown.
I still find it interesting how naive Paul and Morgan are. They really don't seem to know how fundamentalist they are!
Yup!
This comment sums it up the best! 110% my feelings on this 😂🫡🤙🏽
It is so crazy that Paul and Morgan were featured for less than 5mins and they have made hour long documentary about them and others like them. They were dismissive to the abusers and they glossed over the serious issues at the center of the documentary. They spent the the majority of their response video complaining about not getting more airtime, the backlash they are receiving is well deserved!
Morgan has talked about being bullied to the point that her parents decided to homeschool her and she has battled with depression yet she has exuberant in bashing other. They are truly reaping what they sowed. The sow hate and they will continue to reap that harvest. They are self-righteous, toxic, and they abuse the Bible to push their conservative/far-right agenda. Pride, fear, insecurities, and bitterness are at the root of their business because what they do is not a ministry!
RUclips says they have channel and community guidelines but the give a large plate for to hate, and I pray that their channel and ability to make money at the expense of other (like the IBPl, cults, and other religious extremist). More and more people are leaving churches because of people like them, their social/political affiliation, and hypocritical actions.
I would prefer to here your thoughts on the documentary and the issues discussed the watching a hour long video about Paul and Morgan.
I think that while they made a bit of a slippery slope fallacy, I they aren't entirely off the mark that Paul and Morgan's views can lead to the views that drove the Duggers.
Agreed, part of the point is that these views and beliefs can be a slippery slope into abuse and violence.
Right. The point was to show the Christian fundamentalist radicalization pipeline. Paul and Morgan definitely have a spot in that pipeline even if it isn’t at the tail end of it
I really appreciate how calm and balanced your reactions are. Although I don’t agree that they were in anyway “done wrong”. They used their own words and videos. If they don’t want to be represented as hateful bigots they shouldn’t say those things in the first place.
Agreed. P&M said they were asked to come and talk about what it's like to be Christian influencers. They did that.
I think a big thing these two are missing is how ideal the idea of submission and other Christian ideas is for abuse. So yeah, plenty of couples are choosing to follow that in a consensual way, but then those folks seem largely unaware of just how much abuse is being done using the same idea, and how many people they view as just angry & hateful are justifiably angry over this stuff.
The thing is, Paul and Morgan's beliefs on sex, marriage, family planning, education, etc. are very aligned with so much of IBLP. Paul and Morgan do parrot the ideals of IBLP and in many ways are the same group, different cover (not every way-especially regarding music, modesty expectations, premarital courtship). My takeaway was not that the documentary was trying to lump P&M together with IBLP but rather to show that much of the dogma these new, sexy Christian youtubers push very similar doctrine to IBLP-not that they actually ARE in IBLP. P&M definitely push the umbrella of protection theology, even if they don't use that specific vocabulary.
I grew up in an IBLP community, and the vocabulary that Morgan uses about how she as the wife chooses to submit is definitely in lign with the vocabulary I heard IBLP wome
used growing up. I also disagree that IBLP women are not allowed to leave their houses without their husbands. That might be true for some IBLB families but is definitely not true for all.
That being said, I think it really is too bad that they felt misled, and I felt like it would bave been great to hear more of their voice in the documentary.
Interesting. Personally did not think the documentary was an attack on Christianity, the part interviewing P and M was so minor in the documentary that it did not seem important. They are making their role more important than it actually was to the documentary.
Who else thinks that P&M whining that the documentary didn't "preach the gospel" is code for Paul spent 2 hours shoving his beliefs down the throat of the interviewers, with Morgan interjecting with her manic ramblings, and that ended up on the cutting room floor. They're the type that think they're being pErSeCuTeD if they're not entirely dominating the conversation.
Paul and Morgan frequently engage in the well known "not a true Scottsman" fallacy.
After watching SHP and the P&M rant-o-rama I get the impression that P&M might be mad because it wasn't the "P&M Show". They come across as "agenda-driven" grifters, not as polished as Gothard or the Duggars but they are trying to get there. For less than 5 minutes of screen time, they have generated hours of agenda-driven content, for their agenda. They were presented in SHP as shallow, vain and not very smart. And they have proved it. Repeatedly. If only they were as self-aware as they are self-righteous.
They are like those kids in High School drama class who were just a little bit better or prettier than the rest of us, and they were going to be famous; ten years later, they are working at a kiosk in the mall.
Keep up the good work.
A main problem I have with them saying that the docuseries didn't interview Christians is that I've had Kristin Kobes Du Mez twice as a professor at my Christian University, and from the research I've done many of the people interviewed are still Christians. It was an easily disprovable point. That said...I am glad Paul and Morgan recognize the need for accountability.
Yes, it might have been nice to have asked the interviewees about their own identity, whether atheist, believer, agnostic.
I'm not sure it would have made any difference, since Porgan would just say "they aren't REAL Xtians!"
🙋♀️ Christian viewer here! I appreciate your nuanced conversations on all of these topics! Keep doing what you do 😊
Like you said, I really appreciate that the doc tried to show how far the IBLP/Christian fundie sphere of power reaches. But going more in depth would take SO MUCH TIME that they did not have, it's a shame
Though I agree, the part of ep4 in and around P&Ms interview really did make it seem like IBLP = Christian fundamentalism. I guess I took for granted knowing who all the influencers are. Because I was honestly surprised when Paul said they were trying to imply all these young influencers are the Joshua Generation, when I took it to mean, there's the Joshua Generation (it's own thing) and also the spirit of these conservative values lives on in all the RUclips/TikTok creators. But I can now see how it can get muddled and unclear
I understand and appreciate the empathy you extend towards Paul and Morgan. I will say, they were shown for short period of time to highlight the connection between IBLP and Christian influencers today (how IBLP teachings spread across churches in America) and how many Christians who know nothing about IBLP still actually hold similar beliefs. I do not see how they were "done dirty" if they simply asked them about their views on submission and then played clips from their own youtube videos. They were shown for who they are.
Thanks for your thoughts! I can see where you’re coming from. Fundamentalism didn’t come out of IBLP though. I’m all for having a large discussion about fundamentalism and where Christian influencers like P&M fall into that. I disagree a bit about how they were just shown for who they are. The doc included like a 10 second clip of Morgan talking about submission that was obviously part of a larger discussion, and that’s pretty much the only thing they used to connect them to the IBLP. There are Christians who believe in creationism and are transphobic/homophobic that aren’t also fundamentalist (referring to the other small clips they included of P&M’s content).
@@theantibot Thanks for the response! I can see how P&M might feel uncomfortable about their clips in the documentary given they aren't linked to IBLP directly. I am still unsure how it is misrepresentation to pull parallels between Christians who aren't fundamentalists, but share similarly harmful views, and IBLP.
I don't think it’s a misrepresentation to draw parallels or discuss the similarities between the IBLP and P&M’s beliefs. I think it's a misrepresention to imply that they BELONG to the IBLP. That's my only criticism.
I appreciate the fair shake and honest look you both give this. I’ll admit, I thought Paul & Morgan’s inclusion in the documentary felt odd. They were only on briefly, it didn’t feel like it fit where they put it. But, the clips they used, and Morgan saying she didn’t have any issues with the ones they used really bothered me. As the parent of a child who uses they/ them pronouns, Morgan’s comments were hurtful. I understand why she believes what she does, but it doesn’t excuse the harm she causes.
You’re defending them based on a damage control video. When it comes to choice, the choice is “I can choose to walk in the way of the lord and submit,” or “I can choose to not submit, and not walk in the way of the lord.” So you think for even a milisecond that they think a woman could refuse to submit and still be “in the way of the lord”? No. That’s the supposed choice Morgan made. It’s a Hobson’s Choice.
I think you stated this very well. I had to Google "Hobson's Choice". So thanks for teaching me something today. 🙂
I've been on a healing journey from my Christian based religious trauma for the past several years. For a while, the more vitriolic fundie-snark commentaries really scratched an itch during my anger phase. I'm now at a place where I need to have compassion for my younger self and have true love and empathy for friends and family who are still dear to me, and that includes having a nuanced understanding of the faith I used to share with them. At this point I find a lot of the more sarcastic and anger driven outsider takes (even from a therapist like Mickey Atkins) to be more harmful to my mental health than helpful. I really appreciate the empathy and layered understanding you both show. And all the while, you still successfully point out the philosophies that are problematic.
Christianopobe...
Super interesting and I like how you guys have a nuanced take on P&M. I am curious about your take on them not being that “type” of fundamentalist. I do recall hearing about IBLP way before this and learning that a lot of the fundamentalist culture we’ve been seeing was “bred” or “inspired” by Bill Gothard teachings. So even if P&M aren’t directly related to IBLP, they were definitely indirectly influenced by it. Curious your thoughts
While I think you’re giving Paul and Morgan more empathy than I can gather for them, I do appreciate you both sharing a more nuanced perspective than I have to help me better understand the situation. I personally love the documentary and hope we get more main stream content that highlights the dangers of fundamentalist beliefs.
This documentary has been ALL over my fyp, so excited to see you covering this
I’m gonna eat this shit up
This video trends with evangelicals having an extremely narrow version of Christianity and refusing to acknowledge anyone else as a Christian. Ex. Morgan’s phrase “firmly walking…”
I live in Oz and see Paul and Morgan differently from you and Drew. I see them as extremists. They are way off the deep end and have whole barrowsfull of harmful beliefs. Paul might never do awful thongs to Morgan even though he holds complementarian beliefs. I think you guys are a little too close to P & M. You've got a soft spot for them. They are whack-a-doodles. They hold insane beliefs that can be used to justify all kinds of harm. At any rate, thank you for another wonderful video.
I appreciate you & Drew's commentary on these kind of videos more than anyone else, because you are so much more balanced and kind in your critique. You guys don't speculate and you only respond to what is actually said/done in the videos, and that gives you a lot more credibility than other RUclipsrs. Great video! ❤
This is so typical for them to say this stuff. The debate of what is the true religion comes up whenever someone brings up the harms done by some religious group. I watched the documentary and I never had the impression that they are criticizing the whole Christianity. I also didn't think that they are misrepresenting them. the question is why Christians has not made such documentary to say that this cult doesn't represent them?
While I can sympathize a little with Paul and Morgan, and I appreciate your desire to "meet them where they are", the simple fact is that the structure they champion for is pretty much a perfect vehicle for abuse. It isn't a system that can be exploited by bad actors, it's a broken, repugnant system that takes an incredible amount of work to ensure is _doesn't_ cause harm. And even in the rare instance when it works for a family, it causes harm by foisting a safe haven for abuse onto the next generation.
I do agree with you guys that the way the documentary covered them was lacking in context and sort of, lumping them all together in a very unhelpful way. But I do worry about platforming their type of harmful beliefs in a documentary like this, like in order to give more context. There is definitely something to be said about the way that this sort of glammed up fundamentalism does draw young people in a way that a different version of it, something like the IBLP wouldn't have been able to do.
And I would say as someone who was homeschooled with IBLP materials (not part of the IBLP though) the way that IBLP beliefs plays out in families often looks a lot more like Paul and Morgans brand of fundamentalism. And I do think that all types of fundamentalism like this create the breeding grounds for abuse, but I wish the documentary had communicated that in a more constructive way.
I would say though, that the way Paul and Morgan talk about the victims and ex IBLP members featured in the doc in this video is absolutely disgusting. I really hope they are able to reflect on that specifically and hopefully apologize or something because that in particular was completely unacceptable. They've also done this with purity culture, mocking people who say they were victimized by it, and thats a huge problem for me. I knew multiple people in the church who were groomed, one specifically by a youth pastor in evangelical christianity, so it really grinds my gears to hear people who perpetuate this type of environment mock others who are trying to express the harm its caused them.
Love the channel, and the nuance you guys always bring to the table during these conversations.
The transformed wife is the most dangerous of these kind she defends Gothard and the duggars. She pushes this crazy submission and brainwashes young girls
I can venture to guess that at the heart of Paul/Morgans disagreement with fundamental views of "submission" is that it doesnt work for "their" relationship....which is a problem within fundie views overall...they always find some excuse for why THIER variations within views are ok and RIGHT because it suits them... while others are not
I’m not surprised that they don’t agree with MLMs. My parents are the strictest, most fundamental, legalistic Christians I know and they have always warned me against the scam-like nature of MLMs/pyramid schemes. They helped me get out of Amway.
I understand why you would want to advocate for being more specific and not lumping in P+M with the IBLP. And there are practical differences in how they act.
But here's a question I would pose: would the audience/supporters of P+M actually oppose the teachings of IBLP if they were to consider them without the context of the organization?
My understanding of their position would leave me to believe that they would agree with a majority of the teachings and only disagree in a matter of degrees.
When watching SHP- I didn’t think the documentary was inferring that P+M were part of the Joshua generation, I didn’t think that the quote about the influencers in general meant they were preaching IBLP in particular. It seemed more like the series was showing how Gothard, and his father before him have created an environment in which political leaders/legislators, the public and private education sector, and law enforcement- are receptive to Christian nationalism and fundamentalism as a whole. With the rise of social media, TV Christian influencers like the Duggars have paved the way for conservative influencers to have their own “micro” ministries.
@@mikalin9286 I tend to agree. The environment for influence is changing, and these control methods are evolving. Most of the power of IBLP doesn't come from the top of the organization - that is just where the money goes. The power comes from the individuals and resulting communities who push these fundamentalist ideas on the people around them in their religious activities and daily lives. Christian influencers are just another avenue where these ideas get repeated and broadcast out of obligation.
That is exactly what is dangerous about these fundamentalist ideals - they are moving targets, but they override empathy and independence wherever they go. They encourage people to act/believe in certain ways because their team is in the right and has a Bible verse to sling around - and treating outside ideas as attacks.
I don't know much about P+M, but they demonstrated it in this very video. The doc makers saw the connection and brought it to light when most aren't brave enough to do so.
This just feels like playing with semantics. While no they don’t believe in the IBLP they believe so many similar things AND OR base ideas that got Godard (I have none idea how to spell his name) to his conclusions. That’s what’s meant by same book different cover. It’s still the same harmful drumbeat, it’s still the shame based victim blaming. I can see why they feel tricked, but they said what they said and it mirrors the horrible shit that got others harmed. Just because Morgan has a little more “”freedom”” to disagree w Paul does not make them less dangerous or deserving of hearing them out. I can see you’re trying to lead with compassion but it feels to me to be giving compassion to people who would sooner harm others than even try and meet us like you are them
You were definitely more kind to Paul and Morgan than my own thoughts, and I appreciate that. I'm always looking for better ways to temper my approach to Christianity.
Having said that, this definitely felt like a defense of them. And, with the case that the show left them feeling deceived, that's fair. But I'm left with a pretty simple question. What defines extremism in Christianity?
I'd say that Christians that openly invalidate the entirety of the LGBTQ+ community, liberally throw around "no true Christian" arguments against most any other Christian, and choose to proudly wear criticisms leveled against their theology as a badge of honor rather than addressing the concerns directly and with reflection, is essentially an extremist.
What Paul and Morgan seem to not understand is that they are not representing "the other side". The other side would be perspectives from the Duggars, IBLP leadership and Bill Gothard, and we know the documentary team contacted them to ask them for interviews, but they all declined. P&M are just one element of a very complicated coin.
Also, to say "To be clear, I'm not saying there was nothing good about this documentary" is SO gross. Paul, this documentary has been incredibly healing for lots of people. I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, but honestly, it's not about you.
I haven’t seen the docuseries because the clips from it made my skin try to escape my body, so I’ve been watching commentary on it. I always appreciate your *ahem* deconstruction on these topics.
On the one hand, I feel a bit bad for P&M that they’re always asked to be accountable for the entirety of Christian fundamentalism which, as former fundies know, is a broad camp. On the other hand, they chose to be micro celebrities in fundie culture so there are limits to my sympathy.
While I don’t envy their position here, I do think how they feel about how Christianity was represented by the filmmakers is way less important than how Christianity is represented by Christians. That’s probably hard to see when their own reputations feel wrapped up in it, which is probably why they agreed to take part. I imagine they hoped they could draw a distinction between themselves and the Duggars. But maybe a docuseries about abuse wasn’t the right place for them to do PR management for JC.
The good ol' bait and switch is diligently used to make documentaries happen lol. To get you to agree they'll reassure you that you'll be fairly treated and presented, that you're doing sort of a good deed by helping make this documentary happen, sunshine and rainbows, you're a rockstar. And then on day of filming you're met by Borat in a china shop.
I think every person with a entertainment or social media career should be very careful and selective when it comes to letting other people control their narrative. P & M let their desire to proselytize cloud that sensible gut feeling I think lol, they did kinda walk into traffic with this one.
I can offer up one reason why these two folks might be lying about what their role would be on the documentary: They are getting flack from their conservative followers for being part of a "hit piece" on christianity. There is a concerted effort among evangelicals to paint these recent documentaries as attempts by unbelievers to destroy the church.
I appreciate the grace you've extended to them (at least a 1/2 hour in). You're being really kind to them, but they are so missing the point of the documentary. But I'm also a biased source, having grown up in a family that deeply conditioned me in Gothard's teachings. The destructiveness of that man and the insidious ways that the Duggars have mainstreamed his teachings is sickening. Paul and Morgan aren't victims here.
paul: this documentary has an agenda
me: EVERY documentary has an agenda...you literally said what their agenda was in the beginning of your video. to expose the abuse happening in some churches, in particular with the IBLP THAT'S THE AGENDA BRO. that said I do think it was misleading for the producers to not tell them how they would be portrayed. that being said I actually have a hard time listening to anything either of them say because I know how gross a lot of their views are
On that belief Paul and Morgan espouse regarding "people who are struggling" thing, (if they don't mean "struggling with temptation") , this weird belief is something I've experienced.
Before I cut contact with my transphobic parents, whenever I would call/message and tried to explain to my mother what she was doing in being transphobic and gaslighting me was wrong she kept trying to tell me she was sorry I was "struggling" and that I had to "forgive" and "let go of anger", which were confusing messages because I wasn't struggling or angry, I was happy having come out and was trying to reconnect and reestablish a healthy relationship with her with boundaries and get her to stop doing the things that were harmful. Admittedly she was a nontraditional narcissist so it was actually just ways to guilt trip me and shut down conversation by escalating with the "I know I'm a terrible mother who ruined your life you need to forgive me" tirade whenever I pointed out something harmful that I needed her to stop doing.
But she held firm in her belief that having pursued a "lifestyle" my parents considered sinful I must be struggling and she kept trying to convince me I was unhappy and that she didn't believe I was truly happy, pointing out social media pictures where I wasn't smiling and trying to extrapolate that to my life lol.
Conversations with her got frustrating and wherever I got annoyed at her insistence on violating boundaries she'd claim that this was proof I was "unhappy" in my "lifestyle ". It was very transparent attempts at convincing me I wanted to go back to church because clearly they thought my coming out meant I'd "turned my back on" God... Nope the deconstruction was later lol.
My parents are bigots who are homophobic etc unfortunately so unfortunately I couldn't repair the relationship, had to block them because they refused to show me basic human respect (misgendering, gaslighting, lots of boundary violation and manipulation).
But yeah that belief that people must be "suffering" if they don't know God even if you can't see it, like even if they seem to be happy their soul must be in torment and they're just putting on a brave face (and Satan is just really good at marketing efforts he's trying to seduce you away from God so he can nab your soul) that was definitely a weird fundie belief I experienced and even believed myself at some point, that somehow no matter how happy nonbelievers looked they *must* not be happy truly.
And encountering cognitive dissonance would make me angry without knowing why - because it didn't seem fair that there were believers trying to be good and save people and evangelist and the harder they tried the more miserable they became whereas many carefree nonbelievers were totally happy NOT living under this controlling condemnation and I found myself WANTING them to get punished! (Not in hell, in life, enough to save them from hell by show them God was real so I wouldn't have to be constantly trying to reach them, and I could feel vindicated and like God finally answered prayer!)
It was horrible believing that I had to save people who didn't want to be saved when all I wanted to do was be someone people liked instead of feeling like I had to do this crappy job. I wished I could do the"easier" thing of just walking away from my calling, but believed that I had to do the "difficult" thing and hold fast to the calling even if it lost me friends. Classic cult misdirection where you're taught to ignore your doubts and misgivings because they're actually "Satan" tempting you!
But thankfully I was able to be somewhat self aware about that and recognise those crappy feelings of envy and resentment weren't right, even though I didn't understand the source or the abuse, and they only truly went away when I started living as me, however I think many people don't realise that they're living lives of abuse and repression by a cult and the cult encourages them to take it out on unbelievers, blaming them and not the abusive cult for their suffering. My environment luckily wasn't in the USA and didn't push us towards literal violence. But I can see how these feelings can be weaponized and directed. Building resentment and fueling replacement theories and othering and encouraging literal violence so the "Lord's army" metaphor (as we saw it) isn't metaphorical is a very easy way for such an environment to go in a different political context, I was just lucky to not be raised in the USA and a little bit later because raised in conservative Evangelicalism which often was prone to supporting "the Christian political party" particularly the one leaning towards Christian nationalism, I might well have been raised to support Trump, which is a scary thought.
Luckily, Nationalism is going to have a really hard time in my country because we have a much more solid constitution than the USA and it tends to get stamped out instead of building.
Thanks for the rant about my fabulous, amazing country that so many people fought and died for. You don’t live here and you have no idea how wonderful America is. My grandfathers both fought in ww2 proudly so we could be free and the rest of the world could be safe from tyranny. Our awful country that you seem to disregard always seems to be the one that saves everyone else, please don’t put us down when you apparently know only what you read in the papers or see in the news. We are a wonderful country, probably much like your own
I understand meeting people where they are at, and I am usually 100% behind that philosophy. I have to wonder though (as a person who fits into multiple catagories of people that they speak hatefully- in my opinion- about), how do we continue to "meet people where they are at," when it seems like the more they speak, the further they seems to be into their harmful beliefs and actions. I am also looking at this outside of the documentary as well.
Maybe I am wrong, but sometimes it seems like even when people want to have a conversation with them, not even to necessarily change their beliefs, they do not want to engage and would rather burry their heads further in the sand. It makes it very difficult to continue to have compassion when they come across as not wanting to even come close to empathizing with anyone on anything more than a surface level.
At what point do we say that we can no longer "meet them," and how much damage has to be done?
I really wish they would have asked “what does fundamental Christianity mean to you?” “How does your beliefs differ from the Duggars and IBLP?” That would have been more balanced and fair to them and the audience especially to show the fundamentalism is a spectrum, not a one size fits all. Just like Morgan was talking about there’s a difference between how they view submission and how the IBLP interprets submission. But like you said, I think a documentary on fundamentalism on its own would be a great idea.
I agree, except I'm not sure if they seem to know enough about the Duggars to answer those sort of introspective questions xD
They barely seem aware of the misogyny and r*pe culture they promote with their lesser, but still extreme beliefs.
Mickey Atkins did a reaction/discussion of one of their videos about sex and Paul actually says it's more important to have s*x than it is to resolve a simmering argument/ emotional issue. It's not outwardly saying "violate your partner" but it is insinuating that it's more important to let one's partner release, than it is to just go to sleep with one partner mad at the other. Implying that if a person is upset with their partner, they still "owe" their partner s*x.
I’ve been watching Antibot and GMS for a while now and really appreciate your perspectives as former Christians. And I always find the content from both of you to be very thoughtful and careful to try and provide a fact-based and sober assessment of the topics covered. Plus, it’s all done with an empathy and kindness that is very refreshing. Very well done.
This vid is no exception but I do have a differing view regarding your thoughts on wifely submission. I can agree that Morgan and Paul likely have different interpretations of what “submit” means and it’s likely different from the IBLP extreme. But…so what? Its still a domineering hierarchy when a marriage should be acknowledged as two equal partners. You acknowledged that their take on this is still harmful so I’m not sure why you took such pains to draw a distinction where there really is none. Inequality as doctrine is still inequality regardless of how its practiced. Also disagree that Morgan has a choice. If she wants to remain a part of a church that clearly seems to be her entire identity she must submit. Sure, she could choose not to. But guessing she’d no longer be welcome.
I'm not convinced that what Paul and Morgan believe is all that different than the core beliefs of the IBLP. I'd love for them to break down how they're different. And I'm with Jordan and McKay, if these two were really told this was going to be something different than what it was you think they'd have some shred of proof. An email or DM or something... Paul and Morgan don't strike me as super honest people. They're shady bigots and they're having the day they deserve.
How do we know they corresponded only though email? My husband has done plenty of interviews for teams working on docs, and most of the correspondence has been over the phone or zoom. They might not have anything tangible to show. I don’t think it’s good to speculate on things that we really anything about. I don’t think that’s using your platform responsibly (this isn’t a callout to Jordan and McKay. I don’t know much about them tbh).
I mean, Paul and Morgan have been ran through the coals more than most other Christian influencers, aside from maybe GF. They’ve been “having the day the deserve” for years. Imo, they’ve received just as much shit as they’ve received actual criticism.
@@theantibotI don't know whether they have proof or not. I just know that all Paul and Morgan ever do is assume a lot about people they don't really know and judge everybody who isn't exactly like them. I'll stop assuming and judging things about them when they do. They're the ones with the platform and they take zero responsibility for their actions ever. I think I've been watching too much P&M lately that I just don't have a shred of sympathy left for them. I've watched all of their take to the streets videos and the way they treat other and talk to people that don't think exactly the same is horrifying. The way Paul talks to Catholics he comes across is unreal. He can go from asking about the question of the day to telling them they need to get their life right or they're going to hell in like five minutes... They're horrible, horrible people.
I agree P&M do make assumptions about others, and often don’t show empathy and judge those who are different than them. I’d rather not stoop to their level, though, and knowingly make assumptions about them as well.
@@theantibotYou don't have to.
@@theantibotI think it’s absolutely crazy how far you’re going to defend these people, whose rhetoric has hurt people and is actively hurting ppl. Yes you’ve given criticism, but I’m really struggling to understand this obsession. There’s being respectful and fair, and I really do admire you guys for wanting to offer that fairness to people you disagree with. I really do. But this whole discussion is so, SO besides the point of the documentary.
I think when you have a history with the group, it’s easy for you to detect nuance within subgroups. @35 talking about how literally scripture is taken and how rigorously is applied was very interesting.
As someone who was raised atheist, to me it’s all the same. Any submission is bad and when fringe beliefs are given room for possibility, the most harmful always bubble up to the surface and have real life implications.
To me, the intensity of belief shouldn’t matter if the belief itself is harmful. That’s how I interpreted this part of the documentary: saying these really outdated beliefs are still among us, same book different cover
"No Christians were interviewed"...all the while they were interviewing an ENTIRE PASTOR the whole time. 🙄 Paul and Morgan started their video talking about how the bad people should be held accountable and then say BUT after every time they say it. They victim blame and shame throughout the entire reaponse. It's a total crock and they trip over their words the entire time. They basically shit talk the victims and pick and choose which ones they even want to believe. It's disgusting and i dont think they deserveve any kind of explanation of it. Let their own words explain how they feel, but it truly is how they feel.
just wanted to say that i found this take super valuable, as someone who has never really had a religion - thank you!
I dont think they were done as dirty as they seem to feel. They seem to be really defensive of any criticism of Christianity, no matter how warranted. And yes they acknowledge the abuse from the iblp, but they seem to be unwilling to look at the messages they spread and how it can overlap with each other
truly one of if not my favorite commentary channels. I really like hearing both of your perspectives too!
Thank you for this interesting video. Your discussion of Paul & Morgan was very well-balanced and sympathetic. If they see it, however, I doubt they will give it much weight. They don't have much use for the opinions of "fallen" people, no matter how thoughtful those opinions are.
I don't know actually. Paul and Morgan reacted to one of their reaction videos about them two months ago and liked these guys better than most people who react to their videos. I think they actually agreed with them on a few things and apologized for the way they talked about atheists. I could see P&M actually watching this and getting something out of it. Let's hope anyway.
What I really enjoy about your content-both of you-is that even when I adamantly disagree with you I can understand fully why you hold the opinions that you do and the humility and kindness from where those opinions come from. But I do think it’s possible to be understanding and empathetic to a fault when it comes to creators like Paul & Morgan. Often I notice that Christian influencers (apologists, commentary channels, etc.) all share a similar reaction to things like this: their beliefs make them look bad because… they’re bad. And they can’t rhetoric their way out of the optics and so they resent them.
I think yours is the third video about the topic that I've noticed, but it's the first one I'm going to watch.
The others I saved to _watch later_ but yours just popped up at the right time.
I just finished watching Sir Sic's Monday stream.
I'd heard Hemant and Jess mention the documentary, but she was disappointed that the _secrets_ were stuff we've been aware of for awhile in atheist spaces.
I think you have a real point, though I don't remember all the details in the SHP series. I remember feeling like something was off when SHP started talking about the Joshua Generation, and this video helps to pinpoint what that was. But at the same time, I think SHP was trying to communicate something important by making those connections, though the actual argument they used was pretty sloppy. It's true that fundamentalism has many iterations, and they are not all the same, but they do all tend in the same direction, and have a largely similar affect on American culture in general. For example, the pseudo-biblical ideal of "submission," whether it's the totalitarian version of IBLP or the nice version of Paul & Morgan, is always essentially a manifestation of misogyny and an encouragement for an authoritarian approach to life and society. When it comes to how the Duggar/IBLP story is important for American society as a whole, that is what's important. I think SHP was trying to communicate this, but they were much too careless about it.
Yet even if SHP had been as precise as they should have been, Paul & Morgan would still view them as the enemy.
(As for to whether or not SHP lied to P&M about the doc, I was a little confused about exactly where the deception occurred, so I don't have an opinion. But it wouldn't be surprising if P&M are correct on that point.)
Love the content you and Drew produce, can't wait to see more!
I was so hoping you'd make a video! Thanks for your thorough and thoughtful response
I just finished watching the documentary the other night! It was really… cool..? To see Paul and Morgan on there! Equally cool to see you guys cover this!
Thank you for your rational, level-headed take on this issue. You are the most balanced and argumented you tubers who expressed themselves on this topic.
I watched a lot of commentary videos and it’s so refreshing to hear such a rational approach toward this story. It’s almost impossible to to keep on without falling into one or the other pit fall.
I have to disagee with you on Paul and Morgan not being part of the Christian Nationalist organization. If you are voting for the party that is passing laws to deny Americans civil right, human rights and medical care then you are pat of the problem. You can't just vote on some issues and say I don't support the rest of the party's programs, when you vote for a candidate you vote for all of their party's programs.
I was raised in the church and had some IBLP influence via books my parents read and camps we attended. When bill Gothard fell from Grace my mom said they had never fully bought into his teachings and now she knew why.
A few years later when I watched the shiny happy people documentary I was shocked at how accurate it was. IBLP has infiltrated every church, every denomination in Christianity. Maybe with the exception of those which allow women pastors. But all my life I thought we hadn’t been impacted by these teachings but watching the documentary I resonated with every single bit of it. So for them to make the statement that Paul and Morgan are a continuation of this is 100% accurate. They might not consider it “IBLP” but it’s the same ideas and concepts. There are Christian influencers who use a nice aesthetic to preach the same messages that lead to women and children stuck in abusive and oppressive situations. Any form of submission teaching leads to an imbalance of power and control in a relationship. I’ve never seen it done in a healthy way. I would also argue that while Morgan may verbalize that she can disagree with Paul, the story off camera is far different. I was in a marriage that looked exactly like theirs (except I was more into my ex) and behind closed doors he used violence and intimidation to force me to submit. And the things I was forced to submit to were horrible. I think this documentary got it spot on. There is no such thing as little bit of submission teaching or a man just enjoying the right to claim a title. It goes far deeper than that.
I have to disagree with you here. I don’t think the documentary lumps them all together. I think the documentary shows that you don’t have to be IBLP to be extreme. Paul and Morgan are extreme. While they think of submitting differently, it’s still a toxic and extreme view. Do I think that Morgan “chooses” to submit? No. I think she was conditioned to lay down her will to her husband. That is the same thing.
The shirt, the hair, the makeup 💯 I’m loving this look.
They should have said “extension” instead of “continuation” because it’s not the same thing, it’s a new thing that does have its roots back in the original bad thing. To me, that’s worse because that shows how easy it is for these harmful ideas to spread
Great episode you two! I am a 55 y.o recovering ex-fundie, who was coerced and literally terrorized by my favorite aunt into "giving my life to the lord". Sadly. I raised 2 of my 3 children in the cult, we homeschooled, attended some form of church or Christian activity at least 3x a wk. We had chore charts, believed in "spare the rod"
I personally hated that one I wouldn't do to an unbroken what a lot of parents myself included did to our children in the name of god. I have personal understanding and experience with so many of the topics that you both cover on your channels. Thank you for me all the me too moments and the compassion with which you handle the everything connected to each one. I've been blessedly divorced from my mentally and emotionally abusive first husband. But it wasn't until I watched one of Drew's shows on the power structure in the fundamental community and family and how it leaves women powerless and how that leaves many women hopelessly in a marriage with an abuser. That was me.
You went on to say how risky it can be for a woman in that situation to try to leave her abuser because their entire life revolves around the church so the people she may go to for help or refuge could actually tell her to go back and be a better wife and submit to her husband s she would the lord. That was me too.
And then you said it, paraphrasing here, but you explained how that some women in that circumstance are forced to do or submit to things that she may not want to do or things that may be harmful or painful. That's sexual assault.
I immediately had a flash back and a realization that "omg! I'm a sexual assault survivor?!?"
I stopped, everything, I turned off all my devices and just pondered that and kinda set with it for a couple of days. Now I get why I'm so vehemently anti Christian. I see myself a little differently now, I'm a little gentler with myself, and now I really do see me as a bad ass and brave and I've started advocating for myself more. Which has helped me in my current marriage, because I don't deserve to suffer or be uncomfortable or fearful in my own home, so I'm not going to be!
Sorry this turned into a letter, but I have been wanting to reach out and at least give you two the cudos and thanks for everything you are doing and to let you know that it makes a difference.
I think the best way I can put my opinion on this is like… I think we need to stop trying so hard to give P&M graceful respect, we need to stop being wishy-washy about giving them a fair shot. They’ve had their chance to deserve that respect, and they have not earned it. We do not need to get upset about whether or not P&M were fairly portrayed in a documentary about dangerous Christian Fundamentalism, something they spread the teachings of proudly. And even so, I personally found that the doc was very fair about the message they put across regarding them.
Not trying to attack you guys personally, I think it’s admirable that you WANT to be respectful and kind to people who disagree with you. But I’ve seen a trend in anti-Fundie/Fundie snark communities of people getting a little too comfortable with P&M (ESPECIALLY Morgan; the amount of times I’ve listened to people wax poetic about how tragic her circumstance is really grates on me. We can have general human respect and sympathy for someone who is margianalized by their own beliefs, but at a certain point, when that person proudly spreads those beliefs, disrespects margianalized people and even the VICTIMS of this whole thing, nah. I genuinely do not care.)
Also, as a trans person I can’t like waste time being nice abt ppl who think I shouldn’t exist.
One more thing, I saw someone else say this too, I think it’s understandably not sitting right with a lot of us that the only video you’ve made about this documentary happens to be a P+M defense video. I understand that you criticize them as well, but the overall message of this video is to give them like leeway and listen to their points and criticize the way they were portrayed. This was a huge miss, and I’m massively disappointed to see you arguing with ppl in the comments about it.
Also hey let’s not forget that P+M are insanely transphobic/homophobic/etc (something that people tend to like, not forget but downplay/ignore, because transphobia seems to be a given these days), and blatantly racist. (I remember Paul having a problem with interracial relationships on TV, there’s no way that doesn’t go deeper)
Also, I saw you in the comments saying that they chose P+M because they’re the ones “fundies like to pick on” … like… excuse me? These are not victims. They are a very easy set of ppl to discuss and make fun of, and I’m sure people go too far (all snark communities do; I’m not really a fan of those communities and I think they lose focus on real issues SO fast) but I think to a certain extent the massive criticism against them is justified. They spread harmful rhetoric, they don’t want to change, and their rhetoric absolutely falls in line with IBLP whether they’re formally part of the group or not. Sorry for such a long comment but like, so many things I’m feeling as I watch this video and read through the comments lol
I think the documentary should have been longer. I agree it seems like they lumped the less extreme fundies in with the Duggars... but showing how insidious those beliefs ARE, without having any direct connection to IBLP is still important.
The connection isn't direct, but it is more in common than not. IBLP is fully hardcore women have no rights, Porgan seem to act like a woman should voluntarily sign away her rights.
In one of their "sex advice" videos, Paul actually says it is important to give your partner s*x, even if you are upset with them. And that was a genuinely creepy thing to see and hear tham talk about. Mickey Atkins was reacting to that video, and I'm not sure I could have watched it without her commentary
Thanks for your thoughts! I agree - I think it could be interesting to have a doc discussing conservative influencers specifically and how the beliefs they spread contribute to abuse and harm. I feel like they could’ve expanded on it in the doc and that might’ve made things clearer. It’s just the way they framed it was so brief that it slipped into generalizations imo.
Definitely the best take I've seen on this! As someone who grew up in the church and Christian schools, I always really really appreciate your educated viewpoints on both sides of matters like these.
Glad you guys are covering this. Can't wait to watch.
Yes! I’m so happy! I was wondering if y’all were going to cover this.
I know you said to wait if we haven't watched SHP but I couldn't. You always have such well presented engaging content; Also I believe the algorithm is helped most by watches in the first 24 hours so I didn't want to wait. I will watch SHP and Hillsong tonight.
Late to watching this, but just wanna say I appreciate your honestly and fairness! Thanks for this review
As a Christian, I did not feel attacked in ANY way by the documentary. I thought it was a great doc that exposed some really screwed up, unbiblical beliefs and practices.
"submission lite" is a derivative of the original full version. Paul and Morgan are part of the new iteration of the ideology with the "lite" version appealing more to younger people. But both can lead to abuse and generally lead to unhealthy relationships. The difference is intensity, but emotions in a moment can intensify a dominating force. The only safeguard is balanced relationships, no "submission lite".
It is refreshing to watch an intellectually nuanced analysis. I sincerely appreciate your videos. Thank you.
watching their video with the 2 of you really shines a light on their presentation style. all the time i feel like paul is listening very carefully to morgan waiting to but in with any missed detail. it gives the sense of a parent and child less of 2 partners. when you 2 guest appear on your videos, its whose ever channel has the mild "dominance" of the discussion, but its 2 people talking.
I'd not heard of this documentary yet, so even though I me to make sure I give creators a full watch to help the algorithm, I'm checking out just 02:30 into this video. Have a like and a comment though, and a "save to watch later"! Looking forward to hearing your take on the future.
Thank you for a fair discussion of this topic. I didn't know who Paul and Morgan were before watching the documentary. I appreciate pointing out the distinction between them and the IBLT.
I appreciated your perspective. I feel that you were fair to Paul and Morgan and gave an honest appraisal of their point of view.
I am really curious what their answers would have been to the question: aside from the obvious extremes (girls not wearing pants, having tons of kids, no kissing until marriage, all rules made up by Bill Gothard) how does your version of Christianity differ from IBLP?
I reealllllly wish they would have put something like that in there and it would have been more fair to them & all modern day Christians. Also would avoid all these "there lumping all Christians in with IBLP" statements. And it would have been GREAR if I was contradictive to something else they said on RUclips and the doc showed that clip lol
If Paul and Morgans channel were less successful, or Paul had to work elsewhere, Morgan would 100% be in some MLM.
I've gotten a couple of recommendations via RUclips for Paul and Morgan.. and each of the names seem like they're going to jump on non-believers. It's frustrating.