See how respectful Caedrel is of takes even when he doesnt agree with them. Instead of just laughing and saying lol Bronze take he acknowledges the other takes but explains why he thinks differently and why he believes the other person is wrong. That’s why MYFRAUD clears
The fact that people "respect" Ls is for the same reason that he keeps getting away with it. He'd rather insult anyone who disagrees with him than try to argue. Sometimes it's better to tell Ls to shut the fuck up.
We all know he himselfs thinks LS is content farming/ having bullshit takes/ incredibly delusional but dont we all do this in our day to day lifes, its how we present ourself to others that counts wp caedrel dudes gonna go far with his ability to not go baboon mode on the internet like so many other influencers
LS has a common autistic problem set where he is 1) very susceptible to confirmation bias and 2) choice blindness, ie it is extremely difficult to keep coming up with counterarguments to one's own ideas. We can imagine like or 2 pretty easily if they are simple. It's not that he is for sure wrong every time. You could say he's been right-ish a couple times, but he was right for somewhat subjective reasons, and he doesn't believe he's making a subjective argument, I dont think. But he commits to theories too hard too early when they need time to cook. There is probably some aspect of this theory as well that is correct, or a part of this theory is a part of some larger paradigm, and he just needs to let it sit sometimes before initiating the launch.
@opensocietyenjoyer chovy didnt even invent this pick; garen has always been a classic counter to Nasus Q counters wither W makes you take damage mitigation on a nasus Q E shreds all the extra armor nasus builds
@@opensocietyenjoyer why would the lane matter? the champs kit literally counters the other champs kit if they were both junglers it would still be a terrible matchup for nasus
People just love overcooking on 'good thing is actually bad' takes. Sometimes things are just simple. Getting Mid Tier 1 won't make your game state worse. But as with any other objective in the game, overcommitting for it and fumbling the execution can cost you the game.
exactly forcing for anything is bad, its like saying you shouldnt force nexus turrets but is taking nexus turrets bad? ofc not thats how u fkin win the game, but so many teams troll by forcing to take the nexus turrets
I mean sometimes taking sidelane t1 too early is bad because you want to extend the lane phase, and taking inhibs too early can also be bad because of funneling gold to enemies before you can actually end
Nah that LS video was horrible. LS just goes back and forth between being serious and being a meme, went completely off topic and he provided nothing as an argument of why its bad.
but he didnt say taking mid T1 is bad, but rather that taking mid T1 at that specific time and place and gamestate form this specific Game of league of legends is bad, or rather worse than doing something more effective
he was exposed as fraud with horrible takes made for attention countles times he has connections so he isnt ignored by everyone like he should be at this point
Im okay with his opinion because its just his opinion, but when you laugh and insults teams for their draft and item and plays. But when the team wins you call it a skill diff and said oh if they played properly they would have won with the draft EVERY SINGLE TIME. This guy is a narcissist for sure.
@@sophagames Wow you can't answer about sportsmanship so you came up with another assumption xD. Mate I probably am more fit than you and played more sports than you. And also what makes you think I don't play real sports? You got x-ray eyes? XD. Try harder kid.
People, especially LS, have to realise, that what he is sayong here is not something that needs to be discussed. Plays like spawning herald, when Bard has ult or fighting a 4v5, because your 5th member is dead is almost always a bad play to make. Here specifically. Ls's video should be over after like 2 minutes, when they agree, that 100t made an objectively bad play. The only real argument you can have here is about the worth of mid turret. And the worth of the mid turret isn't just the gold it gives.
LS point was that the scaling team should not force taking Mid Tier 1 in a vacuum unless it is free. I think he is frustrated because many teams that have scaling comps will make the same exact play in forcing mid tier 1 and most times it ends up very poorly to the scaling team because random fights that ends up happening and the scaling team expose themselves to unnecessary risk, but they can get way more gold and exp in side lanes.
Which is an opinion no one disagrees with. The big problem with LS is specifically his tweet, which has none of that opinion and is just "hur dur mid just gives gold." Ls made an obvious attempt at garnering attention, using a video as cover to say "well I have a more nuanced view." Where in that video there is someone that practically cooks him alive and makes much better points. There hasn't been a person who ever said "yeah it's worth throwing the game for an objective." It's a non controversy made by LS because he is no longer in the top spot as he used to be.
Exactly, but people want to cite examples on the tail end of the bell curve to try and prove that on average it’s good to take mid, when most of the time it’s not.
I think the not taking mid tier1 works well if we're still in the tracker's knife/eye stone era. Back when you can light up the whole map with wards, TP doesn't have the restrictions and plates weren't even a thing, that makes you un-divable and the whole game would be void of interaction until one team farmed 3 items for their scaling carries first. Now the scuttles worth a lot, plates exist, more objectives are introduced and the jungler gets less xp than sololaners. The benefits of freezing and forcing the laning phase to continue doesn't make up for the increased risks of losing grubs, heralds, jungle exp, and the enemy midlaner decides to abandon lane and perma dive sidelanes. Imagine Chovy still plays like he did 2years ago vs prime Doinb in this meta.
The reason they're making fun of people who say "it opens up the map" is because people tend to use it as a buzz phrase without understanding when and why you want to do it. Do you need to open up the map for your game plan to work ? Is it the best play in terms of risk/reward ? Max Waldo actually talks about this in the video and makes this pretty clear imo.
The problem with that LS takes is how he worded it , because the game state didnt allow for 100T have mid tier 1 for free , LS point is that taking mid tier 1 by overcomitting and risking losing your advantage and giving opening for other team to comeback , LS make his takes on what the most logical things to do at a time ( almost playing like a Robot ) , like for example just because a team draft is bad doesnt mean they cannot , the plan and execution also need to follow that route for it to be working
But the thing you're explaining is the exact thing they were talking about in LS' video... The main point of LS and his colleagues in the end, was that a lot of people are saying "Mid-T1 is always worth taking because it opens up the map" and their response to it was: That there is no point investing a lot of resources and commiting a high-risk play just to get Mid-T1 because the value it gives to your team depends on the overall game-state. And if you just tunnel-vision on "I have to get Mid-T1 right now" then that most of the time ends up biting you back because the value is not big enough for it to be worth any risk. They did acknowledge that killing Mid-T1 gives you easier access to the enemy jungle, but it is an intangible value because its not like "I kill Mid-T1 now I get 5 seconds extra-time" but instead it depends on game-state and champion match-ups how big the advantage of Mid-T1 will actually be in a given game. And the laughing at the argument of "it opens up the map", was moreso directed to people, saying this as their main-point, when they are not able to explain what that means. None of the people in the video is saying at any point, that Mid-T1 doesn't open up the map, but they are laughing at people using that explanation without understanding its meaning. He also said in the video, that this is not about 100T making this mistake because they are bad, but he also criticises the same kinds of decisions for Teams like T1 constantly. Has nothing to do with skill-level of the team, this applies to every league team in every league making decision like that on a regular basis. So conclusion: Yes Mid-T1 can be an advantage in giving you easier map-access, but if you risk everything just to get it down then thats just braindead, reckless behavior that should not be encouraged. Only take Mid-T1 if it is free due to map-state then it is completely fine! That's exactly LS' and his colleaugues message of the disscussion and thats the exact thing that you said as well in this video.
its like when you play anivia, and you have mid teir 1, you are a god, without it, you are just bird food. it opens up a lot of safe flank angles, but the gold value of it is true that its not worth crap
On simpler terms you will always take mid turret over sidelane turrets if you have option to push either one (a guaranteed one) The gold value isn't the worth of an early mid turret push, it is opening the enemy side map for your team. Easier access to enemy jungle area.
I also just wanna add to this. Granted its more soloQ based. But its very hard to look for fights mid as a squishy melee. Backline is essentially safe. And frontline can easily retreat
Why people derrail everything and just swing with it? The idea is plain and simple and LS and some people are going completely off topic, you can point how the game state is, and see if it is a good decision or you will throw the entire game doing it so with overcommitment. And whoever is suprised with LS, it was always like this, just another day.
it does force your midlaner to overextend to farm if the enemy decides to freeze, but of course that opens up roam/invade possibilities i can see both sides i just take turrets when i can of course XD
Why is everyone act surprised with LS? Thats the same dude that acts like a detective when it's convenient to him and acts oblivious when get called out for things that are in front of him.
LS is the biggest hypocrite on the league scene, he keeps hiding behind his acoustic diagnosis. According to modern bullshit spectrum theories every single one of us is acoustic
His theory crafting on off meta perfect builds are fine, but his takes on macro sucks. Abd like what do we expect from him. He is usually gone for 6 months at this points rocks up knowing nothing about the new season than has a bad take on the game. The guy who watched LCK everytime, became and only NA costreamer, his first costream about LPL was last weekends KT T1 nothing else. NA eexcept TL is a bigger disaster than EU.
taking mid tier one could prevent you from cashing in objective bounties later in the game though which could be a good strategy for a scaling comp similar to how the Bause utilizes bounties to win lane.
Hmm Im kinda disgreeing with the take, that jung camps arent really influenced by taking t1 mid or rather that theres just a slight difference when you tak the tower. To me taking the tower opens you up, to get easier access to deep vision. Perma pushing will give you info on enemies, when their defending waves, at that time the sup has some freedom for deep wards. Then ofc you can starve the enemy jng from camps. Depending on how early that happens, there could be a big snowball coming. Because the jng doesnt get access to full XP from lane minions early on so jng camps do matter for his lvl a lot. Of course it depends on the jng played how dependant it is on lvls. But in general I feel like you get easier access through taking mid, cuz you have shorter way, more safety, and in general more knowledge where the enemies are. So its far easier to calculate the risk of invading
If League had an actual discussion culture we wouldn't need to give LS attention. The moment you criticize a players item build or why his pick is bad. Coaches will come out of the woodwork using apologies like nerves, comfort or scrim meta. Like nobody seems to be interested in talking about what champions are actually good in the meta or why Gnar might not be the best pick right now.
i think some people think far far too deep into the game and start thinking about too many tiny things that in reality in the middle of a game would not be the best options due to other things happening in the game, especially LS even tho i agree with a lot of stuff he says about the game, but in the end t1 mid turret is by far the most important and most useful turret to have in the game.
A lot of that might be due to Autism though. I know many autists, and it surfaces in many different ways, but its very common for other people to misread what an autists actually think. And since he does generally invite discussion and disagreements by others I don't think that he is actually as arrogant as he often seems.
u give no vibes cus u are too scared of not being seen as normal. boring most likely underage npc. everything u say is safe, conformists want the credit good people get without actually being good people, so they identify as normal in their small group of invisible boring nobodies (big news for you, normal people are a minority, BOOOO scared?) so boring
ALL i know is i always heard LS talk like hes some league visionary and guru yet i legit never seen him predict a single draft on games hes watched live meanwhile Pedrito here I've never heard him say like he knows league stuff better than anyone and that ppl should hear and do what he says cause he's right yet hes always SPOT ON on drafts and macro, that's all i know. (pls unban me from stream xddKiss -> neverluckynext )
I think LS does not understand how to make points. I'm glad Max Waldo was on the video, bcs he talked about the whole open up the map thing, which means not much most of the time if you don't have the comp for it to push (especially awful for the comp highlighted in the video). The potential to gain anything from "Opening up the map" plus the gold gain from the tower is not worth throwing the game over, or really using as a base to make any plays at all over. Especially if you're playing a comp that wants to move slow. Competitive LoL is really messy rn, and I think the concepts from other games they bring up could be useful if applied well. Competitive starcraft is so much more efficiently played, and the pros are held to a much higher standard. It's much more enjoyable to watch than NA, that's for sure. 100T has insase resources when compared to the top starcraft players as an org, and they don't get close to caring as much about playing the game correctly, a point well highlighted in the video (that I think is worth laughing about, it's a disgrace these teams)
L take. Watch the recent smackdown episode with blaber to see how much na players actually do care about playing the game as well as possible. You are basing this off of nothing besides the fact that they aren't as good as other players. This is like saying just because I got third in my 5k race that I don't care as much as whoever got first. It's not that I care less, it's just that I'm not as fast.
@@calebgardner2687 The comparison of Third to First in this instance is absurd. NA LoL has some of the highest paid pros in gaming with franchise support, and still barely make it out of groups at words every year. They would do even worse if they didn't get so many placement spots. I know they *care* about playing the game as well as possible. They don't have the *dedication* to reach the level of other professional teams globally, or other games for that matter. Watch the training and focus needed for competitive starcraft 2 and then tell me NA LoL players care. I am not basing it off of performance, I am basing it off of results. No other "sport" on the planet is immune to this judgement style, but NA gets franchising so the region is GG. As soon as everyone starts chovying perfect cs in games, or maybe doing the bare minimum of not throwing the game bot lane lvl2 on teams worth millions I would hear your point.
taking mid T1 is not worth if you have a jungler that doesnt contest enemy jungle because youre sacrificing lane pressure for the ability to contest their jungle but if you dont context you dont have lane pressure the enemy jungler is still farming and has more opportunities to gank mid mid T1 is only a good thing to take if you can also take T2 or get it extremely low so when you have long death timers you can capitalize on it and do a quick inhib or inhib tower take allowing for more pressure on the enemy basically forcing someone to stay mid for easy 4v5s at objs
Same idea in chess if you have space advantage in the center. You can easily maneuver your pieces whether the kingside or queenside, while opponent cannot do the same
And yet the game is often even in chess, even tho somebody (mostly white) has "space in the center". In my opinion this "space" in chess helps you at lower levels, but when you know what you're doing and play opening that just isn't about taking center space (early to midgame), you have the same chance of winning as the one with more space (if the players are even strength). One player (usually black) is always more "clumped up" and has less space, but just temporarily, and in the right moment he uses some pawn break to lets say "open up the map". But there is the right time and there is the wrong time to do it. If you do it too soon, in chess or league, when your pieces (in chess) or your map state/items/teamcomp/etc. (in league) dont allow you to get away with it, just because the mentality is "its always good because it opens up the map" (even tho you are the losing team at that point of the game, which was the situation in the game), it literally opens nothing, because you dont just start roaming in the enemy jungle when the T1 is gone, because you are still scaling at that point vs stronger teamcomp at the moment. So it opens up nothing and you lose something else in return. LS clearly said in that video "if its free, sure, take it", but it wasn't free, the price was really high, and people often overforce the mid T1 tower when the time just isn't right. That was the whole point. :)
A lot of what makes arguments fun/healthy is that you respect the people you are arguing with. LS presents his arguments as fact, and it seems like he looks down on people who he disagrees with, which is enough to make people lose their shit. I think that's the reason people will mad hate LS, whereas Caedrel is very respectful of the arguer, and that will make people WANT TO take the time to hear him out. LS is super smart about the game, he just goes about expressing his takes A.) On twitter, where reading is up to interpretation. And B.) In a condescending manner that makes people want to be less agreeable because they believe he's being a twat.
Idk how they don't understand that it's more easy to make a set up for baron or drake if mid is open for example. It's crazy to me that people are like "BUT LVL 2 TEAR HAVE MORE GOOOLD VALUEEE" like something like that it's important by min 40 of the game lol.
No. Repeating mistakes over and over, expecting a different result, becomes the definition of insanity. If you tell someone they built one item wrong and they've never made that mistake before, then sure, you are using hindsight.😅
Ehhh They are professional players and the expectstion is that they should know not to do certain things or should know to do certain things. That's a point brought up and discussed in the orginal LS video
Caedrel's turning point videos are the current best example for how to illustrate a point about competitive strategy in league of legends right now. The LS vid forgets its own argument halfway through and rambles on tangents. I think there could be a useful case study about when it is incorrect to take mid tower but that is not what LS presented in the video.
An explanation for the "LS has good takes on paper, but not in practice" and the problem with theories. As an engineer you learn very quickly that theory and practice are different beasts. The reason for it is that in theory you have to make certain assumptions in order to move the science forward. The simplest example is the 'assume no air resistance' in simple physic calculations. Theory is super useful for getting you in a ballpark, but is limited when a lot of variables are at play. So for league, having a theory 'mid tier 1 is only 112g so it is not worth the effort of getting it when you want to scale' is flawed in practice. In practice there are thousands of variables that are not set in stone. It is completely situational, and many factors like some Caedrel explained here matter. You could improve the theory by including more variables, where each variable has an impact on the outcome. Not to mention, humans are the most unpredictable of variables.
Everything you said makes sense to me, I always think of the geographer in the "Little Prince" creating maps of places he's never visitted when I hear outlandish takes from LS. If he had the opportunity to step out of his head and get some hands-on experience again in a comp setting, he could genuinely be a great influence on the way the game is played.
Good theory is always good practice. But good theory Will always take into account multiple scenarios. It is crazy how bad our education system is when an engineer who bases his whole Life around theory is saying theory and practice are different. The problem with ls is that what he is saying is maybe true in one scenario but that doesnt mean ITs good theory. Btw without theory you would be without a job
@@callo1987for engg theory is just a reference for practical purposes, the calculations and problem solving becomes incredibly impossible going only by theory of taking a proper practical scenario and so a practical experience is an absolute must
@@aimy5637 I understand what you are trying to say but the thing is - how do I say this - in the most impossible practical situation there is still theory that covers it, however it wasn't covered in a particular theory. Lets take as an example Fukushima nuclear disaster. In theory the events that led to it were overlooked as impossible, while in reality the impossible sequence of events actually happened. However that does not mean that theory is DIFFERENT than practice, just that it was a bad theoretical model. If we reapply that to League. League is an even more closed system. The amount of events that can happen is almost infinitely smaller than in real life.Therefore a good theory is very close to practical application. And like I said - the problem with most of LS takes is that he uses a very specific line of argument (due to him being autistic) that views the game in a very specific way. That very specific point of view often produces bad theory precisely because the theory itself is not broad enough to cover most of the practical applications.
@@callo1987 yeah that's why many people of science of the past have sayings about theory and practice being the "different beasts", because nowadays our education is system sucks...
The whole point of what he said is mid T1 is not worth enough gold to throw ur whole game over if ur scaling. I’ve seen so many games get throw by a scaling team cause they are desperate to make a play and fight for mid T1
I think both sides have valid points and ultimately see ways for consistent victories differently. I don’t think either is rights, it’s a balance and meta approach which will favour some teams and harm others.
As the average mobility of champions is increasing though, LS is increasingly right. You cant push up because you can be engaged on from much farther away by more kinds of champions. You can rotate but so can they, etc. It is certainly less of an advantage than it was in season 2. With lane swapping being meta, you are both repeat diving one guy and then with the same timing walking to the objective on your side of the map. So the fact that you can walk through mid doesnt matter. It's a more correct theory than it was a couple patches ago, a year ago, and in all likelihood will continue to be more right.
LS idea with not taking the mid tower is that you don’t get much advantage of it since you are scaling anyways. He often talks a lot about the concept of “the beat down”. And 100 Thieves weren’t the beat down in the game, they shouldn’t play aggressive when it’s TL who have to be proactive. You don’t aggressively engage the enemy team if you have a poke comp, it’s game theory. At least that was my takeaway from the video.
4:40 they’re wasn’t saying that taking is bad (like sometimes inhib is bad), or „opens up the map” but at that that they’re risking by doing so, and it was wrong place wrong time, and about the opening map - they just hate to use blank statements, and be more reasonable and talk about tangibles
I feel like 99% of the people look at the game from a solo queue perspective, it’s probably always good to take t1 mid in sq due to how uncoordinated the game is, however in this situation taking mid t1 doesn’t do anything. It’s the same we had with agurin yeah maybe the play works 80% of the time and provides about a 800 gold for the whole team, or you take the 700 gold with 0 risk.
But that's a fake argument that can be applied to LITERALLY EVERY OBJECTIVE IN THE GAME. That's the issue people have with LS. LS could've made an example about literally any objective throw and made the same video but replace mid turret with nexus turret or baron or whatever. Yeah, making a bad call over an objective and throwing the game isn't good. There's nothing new being said here.
He made the video cuz it's so prevalent even among Korean teams and they don't have a solid reasoning for overforcing mid turret. They'd answer simple mindedly "it opens up the map" or "my coach told me to"@@amethonys2798
Maybe is some extremely optimized theoretical way he could be right. The problem is pros are still struggling to setup objectives so why are we worried about this? I play a lot of tft so that’s an easy example: it’s 100% optimal to keep multiple options open before you decide what comp to play. But also, sometimes you get really confused and there’s a greater chance to mess up when doing this. You might lose some gold to the tower if you take mid tier 1 but also what if the enemy support is stupid and gets caught out in jg cuz he doesn’t respect the new established line of vision? LS is ignoring the “potential” gold that can come from the enemy team have a harder gamestate with mid tier1 down
I think thinking about that is kind of disingenuous. "Potential" is kind of hard to quantify. Like sure, the enemy can mess up and give up free gold, but playing with the intent that people will mess up is not how you should play a game.
LS laughing at people who think different than they do is wrong, especially on a concept that is as old as the game like taking mid turret. I don't really see how that attitude is supposed to be healthy for growing the community and understanding of the game as a whole, but that's kind of the way he is. I respect LS for having unique ideas and approaches to the game a lot of the time but he doesn't always make people want to listen when he's so condescending.
I would refer to taking the mid t1 as enabling options. Like putting your pieces in the center of chess. It doesn’t immediately change the evaluation of the game yet it increases your options, and can make therefore things easier.
Only if you NEED to do something to win. The point of this conversation is that sometimes doing nothing is winning. A scaling comp wants to delay the game as much as possible, therefore taking turret does not enable nor get them closer to their wincon. Taking at minimum 1 dragon does, therefore contesting every dragon does not help them. It is all about recognizing the resources necessary to increase the odds of winning and a t1 when you out scale is pointless.
Good vid, but it completely misses the point of the original vid (which, to be sure wasn't very clearly preseted and had a bad title). First of all, despite the title (probly titled by an editor), they did not once say that taking mid turret is not useful generally. It was precisely about greeding for a turret and investing resources for it when that is not at all your win con of your comp. Good discussion though.
I went into that video thinking it would be educational as to 'why taking mid turret is bad from macro side'. Instead it was all perma flame, perma crying and drama. Cringe deluxe +100
LS is absorbed with the concept of gold/time management and efficient itimezation. Important concepts indeed, but not as central he thinks they are. This is why I think he could be a fantastic analyst , but not really a head coach nor a stategist coach, he lacks a more hollistic approach for that IMHO.
he could be an excellent shitposter at best. this budget ass justin bieber lookalike never achieved anything and just keeps having shit tier takes everytime. guy's the definition of dunning-kruger
I think LS is "correct" about the 100t game but words in his post and video so poorly that I am not even sure I actually get what he is trying to say. The main point is 100t is playing a scaling comp and having more of less equal economy, and the best thing to do is sit back and scale. This part more people will agree (?). But LS in post and video says, paraphrasing: "mid is just 112g. It's not worth." "When people say 'Open up the map they don't know what that means.' and laughs. They over generalise the situation to 'taking mid tower is always not worth it' and of course it becomes a bad take. Then, the LS video is so chaotic I am not sure LS actually wants to over generalise or is just really bad with words.
But they do go over the nuances of how much the time and opening up the map is worth depending on team comps and whatnot. Also a large part was going over the risk of forcing a big fight given that their comp scales a lot harder and the concept of feeling the need to "do something" or push for something all the time even if it can cost them too big of a loss
I can't understand why LS still is (or even ever war) a recognizable name in this community. He is narcissistic, toxic, lies about his career at every step and has the worst takes on cooldown, but yet people still engage with him.
LS is truly one of the most frustrating people in league due to his intelectual dishonesty as explained in this video. Using one example to extrapolate on a whole topic, comparing to other games, removing all context and saying its just about 100g. It just reeks of a purposefully extremely limited scope thats dishonest and super cringe
Comparing to other games is not an example of intellectual dishonesty. Removing all context and saying it's about 100g is called hyperboly at worst, not intellectual dishonesty. As to the "one example to extrapolate", wdym, exactly? I'm pretty sure it's bullshit but I'd like to hear from you nonetheless
@@marcosa2000 A false analogy is a type of logical fallacy that occurs when someone assumes that two things are similar in other ways because they are similar in one way, in this case that’s the SC comparison. Thats intellectual dishonesty. Making the 100g argument while removing other relevant context that others pointed out is both a hyperbole and intellectually dishonest. Using one example to extrapolate why taking mid turret is bad in most or all games (LS used the 100T game) is called using a straw man and is another example of a logical fallacy and intellectual dishonesty. This last piece was pointed out by caedrel who himself said LS should have looked at more games, more examples, more case studies instead of arguing a theory based on one NA game. Hope this helps
@@Nastyhoops LS in his tweet basically said it was bad to force the take of it if you outscale. From his PoV, the only thing you should be getting from that is the 100g each member of the team gets, because you're going to have to wait to outscale anyway. Taking jungle camps or trying to further pressure the enemy can only be bad for you, since you doing nothing wins you the game. Do nothing, outscale and win is his whole strategy. You don't need to take T1 for that. If you pay any attention to LS' commentary, he has been making that point for years. It's not that he has one example. He has many, many examples. For instance, in the DRX vs TES worlds group stage game in 2020, he mentioned how DRX would have won if they didn't force a fight mid, since they outscale. You are the one saying it's just one example, which it is not. It is many examples over many years, with this one just being the latest example
@@marcosa2000 hey man I’m just critiquing LS’ video for what it is. I obviously have no idea about his DRX vs TES analysis because… he didnt include it in the video… If you find that argument to be so persuasive then he probably should have. Titling a video ‘The problem with taking mid turret’ and then including ONE example from ONE game is clickbaity at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. Given his persona and all the other dishonest elements i listed (which you didnt even respond to) I choose to believe the latter
@@Nastyhoops I don't know what you mean by 'SC comparison' and there was no other fallacy aside from 'assuming 2 things are similar in many ways when they are only similar in 1' that you mention. Which you haven't substantiated and the burden of proof is on you. But I do agree LS's video could be better. His response to getting what he thinks are bad replies is less than what should be expected. Yet this is an ad-hominem fallacy, is it not? I outlined the point he was trying to make (because he's made it countless times before) and there are (as far as I'm concerned) no logical fallacies. So it's up to you to prove them, since you're the one making the assertion
In my opinion, the point is that even if they open up the map what can they actually achieve after? Why is it imperative to open up the map? Wouldn't you rather open up the map when it is free and not when it costs multiple lives? The argument isn't "you should never take mid turret." No one claimed that. It just made 0 sense to try to take the turret when Taliyah can just say no and you get no immediate benefit or even any benefit in the next 5-10mins when you could win a fight and get it anyway
so we took rift herald and we're just gonna... not use it? surely there are ways to do this without dying, its at 15% hp and we have a herald charge, that turret should die
The point wasn't that mid tower doesn't open up the map, but that a generality does not justify what could be a mistake in a specific situation. it's like pointing out someone died from overhydration, but some pleb responds, "But water is good for you."
this. LS and the gang literally kept on asking "well why are you taking it?" and if the only answer is opening the map and doing something then you get the exact result of over forcing on an unnecessary tower and losing control of the game.
Taking the tower is almost never bad. It's only "bad" if you fail to execute it and throw the game randomly. It's the same shit with like Nexus towers or any of the neutral objectives. It is ALWAYS good to take them if you can get away with it. The issue is when teams overstay and throw the game.
Just like how you shouldnt take medical advice from someone who failed med school you also shouldnt take advice from someone who failed anything, LS peaked gold or plat if i remember correctly, there is no fucking way i ever take anything he says about the game seriously.
If you are not the beat down (i.e. you are the comp that wins the longer the game goes on, 100T in this case), "opening up the map" by taking mid T1 is useless because your only goal is to be at the relevant fights (soul point, soul or nash) having reached your spikes, which you make sure happens by minimizing variance and risk. The argument for taking mid T1 is that you have more access to enemy T2s, push and jungle camps, but realistically as the scaling comp thats not your goal, you are not incentivized to take T2s/steal jungle camps to pressure the enemy because the longer the game goes the easier it is for you to win.
By far the biggest advantage is that you can push the wave deeper, which allow you to walk into river more risk free, which you absolutely want as a scaling comp, the issue is as caedrel said execution, not intent
@andreihlen7597 yup, access to river and being able to get to objectives first is always really good, especially for scaling comps which typically don't have a ton of engage and currently rely heavily on poke champs which are much more effective when the enemy is coming into you.
Tldr guys, LS’s video isnt even relevant its pretty bad (and i like ls). His whole point has always been that he doesnt get why teams throw games/disadvantage themselves for things like a herald or t1 mid tower. Some ppl act like if u get t1 id tower you have this massive advantage thats worth losing a team fight for. But yea kinda fake news. Thats all :)
You open up the map. To do what? Thats the question. Every time you do a thing, it should be to accomplish another thing. It shouldnt be some nebulous "maybe," but it should have an actual goal in mind. "Our team has lee or ali and taking mid tower allows us an easier path to get behind the enemy to displace them using kick or whatever making it easier to target the carry." Fine. But simply "it opens up the map" doesnt mean anything.
Open up the map -> more options for your team and more uncertainty for the other team. For any early to mid game objective mid turrent is the most valuable.
@@justespelund You are agreeing with LS and Max's point though? Taking the tower has as much value as you can use it to gain other advantages, e.g. via rotation. When choosing between different options, you should estimate how much value this is. When estimating this value, you should consider both team comps, especially your mid and jungle. How much value do you think Smolder and Zyra will generate using those rotations on average?
@@stefanrabenstein3753Depending on how they play, they can gain a lot. Fast pushing and running bot or top with your jungler for a tower dive for example is something any champ can do.
LS never said it’s super bad thing to do/troll but his talking about what is more efficient and optimal if the scenario would be played again. So many here in comments think that if the headline says ”ls thinks taking mid turret is bad” in the same way as he talked about freezing waves 5 years ago what noone was doing but now everyone does it because it’s just better. I’ve watched LS a lot so i would let it take time to see if people do this and it happens to be better. Before that it’s actually ”he said she said scenario” -> Caedrel said the same thing in this video that he might be right but we need more scenarios like this.
Idk.. I just can't take LS seriously since he made a 2h+ interview about leaving the scene and nobody appreciating him just to delete it and come back 2 weeks later
LS is the most insecure "famous guys" i ve seen. No arguments at all, just justifying everything on the base of him being smart (???) and those who dont agree superdumb. If you dont believe me, try arguing with him in his dm, i assure you he will answer.
LS unfortunately is a poor communicator. He should of just said this, scaling teams should only ever do things where the risk is very low, as time is on their side. But the thing is every silver idiot and up knows this. But you also want to mitigate opportunities that you afford the enemy team
I'm sure he does, but just thinks playing conservative with your tempo if you outscale is better than forcing random objectives. It ain't that deep fam
lol take a shot each time LS brings up starcraft/streetfighter/teken in any argument that LS is in. "Erm actually, if you follow esports for the past 20 years you can see that xxx did yyy in starcraft. zzz is a top player at tekken back in the day so league should follow blah blah blah" 🤓🤓🤓
? he was usually one of the most honest league creator out there. he usually admitted his wrong takes immediately when people actively challenged them in a constructive manner. but when 95% of league community perma hates on him, cuz they just parrot streamers who just immitate video headlines themselves. like until 22 LS was always willing to engage with random chatters and their takes and go through his and the challenging point of view. he just broke after 4 years of the exact same drafts and the perma hate he got from people who actively refused to stand their own point of view. like we never really got to see people challenge him in a conversation exept for a few instances (which were usually the most educational ones, cuz DUH, conversations can be really constructive). and he is incapable of articulating things in a more...connecting (?) way, which made it hard to understand him for most people ig.
@@stagaries1696 I don't like LS because he carries himself as if he was League's foremost authority on all subjects, only to be proven wrong most of the time.
@@vaqueroliquido7339 "most of the time" what are you refering to? soraka, ivern, ldr, liandries, him saying proteams dont "draft" when they literally dont exept for few teams like DK, geng and g2? also, when he said "draft x is better" but y won, doesnt mean hes wrong. if a team has a baseline of winning 10%, but their draft gives them a chance of 20% theyre still 4 times as likely to lose, so them losing doesnt disprove his point (it also doesnt prove it, but usually only wildcard teams were the ones going for innovation). not like we see a completely gutted version of ivern in proplay now, with less effective item. also how do you think should he change his view if noone actually constructively addresses his points? because people say so? thats just a weak argument. galileo shouldve stopped advocating a heliocentric world view aswell, cuz 99.999% the earth to be the center aswell? people always just say "hes wrong" or "hes so rude!". hes he an asshole about it and should he learn how to articulate himself more politely? 100%!!! but saying only that doesnt help creating a constructive debate about the actual points. i mean the guy above can continue saying that LS is despicable, and he might be right to some extent but him saying that, is also just cringe, cuz nobody benefits from him expressing his hate. unless people think hate is worth more than improving knowledge via debates with actual arguments.
![Lil Uzi Vert - Chill Bae [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/D7F42F_JM3U/mqdefault.jpg)
See how respectful Caedrel is of takes even when he doesnt agree with them. Instead of just laughing and saying lol Bronze take he acknowledges the other takes but explains why he thinks differently and why he believes the other person is wrong. That’s why MYFRAUD clears
man when i saw the video on my feed i already knew LS is cooking up some huge Ls again but holy this is dumb
The fact that people "respect" Ls is for the same reason that he keeps getting away with it.
He'd rather insult anyone who disagrees with him than try to argue.
Sometimes it's better to tell Ls to shut the fuck up.
We all know he himselfs thinks LS is content farming/ having bullshit takes/ incredibly delusional but dont we all do this in our day to day lifes, its how we present ourself to others that counts wp caedrel dudes gonna go far with his ability to not go baboon mode on the internet like so many other influencers
unlike LS who constantly makes fun of anything he disagrees with
LS has a common autistic problem set where he is 1) very susceptible to confirmation bias and 2) choice blindness, ie it is extremely difficult to keep coming up with counterarguments to one's own ideas. We can imagine like or 2 pretty easily if they are simple.
It's not that he is for sure wrong every time. You could say he's been right-ish a couple times, but he was right for somewhat subjective reasons, and he doesn't believe he's making a subjective argument, I dont think. But he commits to theories too hard too early when they need time to cook. There is probably some aspect of this theory as well that is correct, or a part of this theory is a part of some larger paradigm, and he just needs to let it sit sometimes before initiating the launch.
Faker: *Play Mid Garen.*
Chovy: *You all heard the man.*
there is some mental connection between them
chovy is the one inventing those picks, not faker
@opensocietyenjoyer chovy didnt even invent this pick; garen has always been a classic counter to Nasus
Q counters wither
W makes you take damage mitigation on a nasus Q
E shreds all the extra armor nasus builds
@@AtroLine626 but not in midlane
@@opensocietyenjoyer why would the lane matter? the champs kit literally counters the other champs kit if they were both junglers it would still be a terrible matchup for nasus
People just love overcooking on 'good thing is actually bad' takes. Sometimes things are just simple. Getting Mid Tier 1 won't make your game state worse. But as with any other objective in the game, overcommitting for it and fumbling the execution can cost you the game.
exactly forcing for anything is bad, its like saying you shouldnt force nexus turrets but is taking nexus turrets bad? ofc not thats how u fkin win the game, but so many teams troll by forcing to take the nexus turrets
Agreed. Reminds me of the "WHY DRINKING WATER IS KILLING YOU" type videos.
I mean sometimes taking sidelane t1 too early is bad because you want to extend the lane phase, and taking inhibs too early can also be bad because of funneling gold to enemies before you can actually end
Its also about the intent, if you have a comp that really outscales trying to go for a play like that makes no sense
i mean he was the first one to say taking inhib too early vs certain comps isnt good because it makes it so you lose minion waves
5:42 Caedrel pauses so TTS can say cuh. Epic
Nah that LS video was horrible. LS just goes back and forth between being serious and being a meme, went completely off topic and he provided nothing as an argument of why its bad.
but he didnt say taking mid T1 is bad, but rather that taking mid T1 at that specific time and place and gamestate form this specific Game of league of legends is bad, or rather worse than doing something more effective
You’re stupid
Didn’t he say jungling was more effective at that stage?
he was exposed as fraud with horrible takes made for attention countles times
he has connections so he isnt ignored by everyone like he should be at this point
@@silbergreen649 That argument could literally be used for any objective at any point in the game
Im okay with his opinion because its just his opinion, but when you laugh and insults teams for their draft and item and plays. But when the team wins you call it a skill diff and said oh if they played properly they would have won with the draft EVERY SINGLE TIME. This guy is a narcissist for sure.
someone never watched real sports xD gamers should touch some grass xD
You have no discernability to understand what goes on in games
@@sophagames even real sports have sportsmanship. Guess that doesn't apply to you xD
@@killerins1000 try a real sport buddy and dont play too much a computer game for kids ;)
@@sophagames Wow you can't answer about sportsmanship so you came up with another assumption xD. Mate I probably am more fit than you and played more sports than you. And also what makes you think I don't play real sports? You got x-ray eyes? XD. Try harder kid.
the argument was never why you shouldnt take the mid turret. it was always is the value of mid turret worth throwing the game over.
i just think the title of the video needs to be different because i dont think the point of the video was ever supposed to be what the title suggests.
People, especially LS, have to realise, that what he is sayong here is not something that needs to be discussed. Plays like spawning herald, when Bard has ult or fighting a 4v5, because your 5th member is dead is almost always a bad play to make. Here specifically. Ls's video should be over after like 2 minutes, when they agree, that 100t made an objectively bad play.
The only real argument you can have here is about the worth of mid turret. And the worth of the mid turret isn't just the gold it gives.
no sht u should lose the game for that turret. That mid turret play in particular was not even that bad just executed poorly.
Huh? If that was the argument then why did the guy that started the argument make a video going in a completely different direction?
@@numeritos1799 cuz hes a bit of a dum dum
LS point was that the scaling team should not force taking Mid Tier 1 in a vacuum unless it is free. I think he is frustrated because many teams that have scaling comps will make the same exact play in forcing mid tier 1 and most times it ends up very poorly to the scaling team because random fights that ends up happening and the scaling team expose themselves to unnecessary risk, but they can get way more gold and exp in side lanes.
Which is an opinion no one disagrees with. The big problem with LS is specifically his tweet, which has none of that opinion and is just "hur dur mid just gives gold."
Ls made an obvious attempt at garnering attention, using a video as cover to say "well I have a more nuanced view." Where in that video there is someone that practically cooks him alive and makes much better points.
There hasn't been a person who ever said "yeah it's worth throwing the game for an objective."
It's a non controversy made by LS because he is no longer in the top spot as he used to be.
@@DunkiMonkeyif no one disagrees with it, then why do teams make the same brain dead game after game after game for years on end?
Exactly, but people want to cite examples on the tail end of the bell curve to try and prove that on average it’s good to take mid, when most of the time it’s not.
I think the not taking mid tier1 works well if we're still in the tracker's knife/eye stone era.
Back when you can light up the whole map with wards, TP doesn't have the restrictions and plates weren't even a thing, that makes you un-divable and the whole game would be void of interaction until one team farmed 3 items for their scaling carries first.
Now the scuttles worth a lot, plates exist, more objectives are introduced and the jungler gets less xp than sololaners. The benefits of freezing and forcing the laning phase to continue doesn't make up for the increased risks of losing grubs, heralds, jungle exp, and the enemy midlaner decides to abandon lane and perma dive sidelanes.
Imagine Chovy still plays like he did 2years ago vs prime Doinb in this meta.
The reason they're making fun of people who say "it opens up the map" is because people tend to use it as a buzz phrase without understanding when and why you want to do it. Do you need to open up the map for your game plan to work ? Is it the best play in terms of risk/reward ? Max Waldo actually talks about this in the video and makes this pretty clear imo.
100%. This is the takeaway but it comes with a lot of chaff.
if i understand correctly it's like when people say "ho this guy is good he give space to play ?"
The problem with that LS takes is how he worded it , because the game state didnt allow for 100T have mid tier 1 for free , LS point is that taking mid tier 1 by overcomitting and risking losing your advantage and giving opening for other team to comeback , LS make his takes on what the most logical things to do at a time ( almost playing like a Robot ) , like for example just because a team draft is bad doesnt mean they cannot , the plan and execution also need to follow that route for it to be working
But the thing you're explaining is the exact thing they were talking about in LS' video... The main point of LS and his colleagues in the end, was that a lot of people are saying "Mid-T1 is always worth taking because it opens up the map" and their response to it was: That there is no point investing a lot of resources and commiting a high-risk play just to get Mid-T1 because the value it gives to your team depends on the overall game-state. And if you just tunnel-vision on "I have to get Mid-T1 right now" then that most of the time ends up biting you back because the value is not big enough for it to be worth any risk.
They did acknowledge that killing Mid-T1 gives you easier access to the enemy jungle, but it is an intangible value because its not like "I kill Mid-T1 now I get 5 seconds extra-time" but instead it depends on game-state and champion match-ups how big the advantage of Mid-T1 will actually be in a given game.
And the laughing at the argument of "it opens up the map", was moreso directed to people, saying this as their main-point, when they are not able to explain what that means. None of the people in the video is saying at any point, that Mid-T1 doesn't open up the map, but they are laughing at people using that explanation without understanding its meaning.
He also said in the video, that this is not about 100T making this mistake because they are bad, but he also criticises the same kinds of decisions for Teams like T1 constantly. Has nothing to do with skill-level of the team, this applies to every league team in every league making decision like that on a regular basis.
So conclusion: Yes Mid-T1 can be an advantage in giving you easier map-access, but if you risk everything just to get it down then thats just braindead, reckless behavior that should not be encouraged. Only take Mid-T1 if it is free due to map-state then it is completely fine! That's exactly LS' and his colleaugues message of the disscussion and thats the exact thing that you said as well in this video.
This was so obvious to me too, I swear the average league player just lacks have listening comprehension
You said getting mid T1 can be an advantage since it gives you easier map-access. Could you please elaborate on what this means, precisely?
its like when you play anivia, and you have mid teir 1, you are a god, without it, you are just bird food. it opens up a lot of safe flank angles, but the gold value of it is true that its not worth crap
If you lose tier 1 as anivia you are even happier because you can freeze at tier 2 and farm infinitely. If you perma shove of course youll int
0:15 Oner?😅😂😂😂
On simpler terms you will always take mid turret over sidelane turrets if you have option to push either one (a guaranteed one)
The gold value isn't the worth of an early mid turret push, it is opening the enemy side map for your team. Easier access to enemy jungle area.
I also just wanna add to this. Granted its more soloQ based. But its very hard to look for fights mid as a squishy melee. Backline is essentially safe. And frontline can easily retreat
Why people derrail everything and just swing with it? The idea is plain and simple and LS and some people are going completely off topic, you can point how the game state is, and see if it is a good decision or you will throw the entire game doing it so with overcommitment.
And whoever is suprised with LS, it was always like this, just another day.
What is this comment
ye bro, that's why most people dislike LS :)
Lol what are you on about. It wasn't that complicated of a point and obviously true
it does force your midlaner to overextend to farm if the enemy decides to freeze, but of course that opens up roam/invade possibilities i can see both sides i just take turrets when i can of course XD
Why is everyone act surprised with LS? Thats the same dude that acts like a detective when it's convenient to him and acts oblivious when get called out for things that are in front of him.
Lose the hate boner he’s objectively right
LS is the biggest hypocrite on the league scene, he keeps hiding behind his acoustic diagnosis. According to modern bullshit spectrum theories every single one of us is acoustic
yeah i'd love it if caedrel doesn't even address anything LS related, that thing is just unbearable
His theory crafting on off meta perfect builds are fine, but his takes on macro sucks.
Abd like what do we expect from him. He is usually gone for 6 months at this points rocks up knowing nothing about the new season than has a bad take on the game. The guy who watched LCK everytime, became and only NA costreamer, his first costream about LPL was last weekends KT T1 nothing else. NA eexcept TL is a bigger disaster than EU.
I think he get no attention so he making a scene for it.
I feel like I'm going to have a stroke watching this
Kai Cenat streamed with Kevin Hart? Damn, I gotta check that out.
taking mid tier one could prevent you from cashing in objective bounties later in the game though which could be a good strategy for a scaling comp similar to how the Bause utilizes bounties to win lane.
Hmm Im kinda disgreeing with the take, that jung camps arent really influenced by taking t1 mid or rather that theres just a slight difference when you tak the tower.
To me taking the tower opens you up, to get easier access to deep vision.
Perma pushing will give you info on enemies, when their defending waves, at that time the sup has some freedom for deep wards.
Then ofc you can starve the enemy jng from camps.
Depending on how early that happens, there could be a big snowball coming. Because the jng doesnt get access to full XP from lane minions early on so jng camps do matter for his lvl a lot.
Of course it depends on the jng played how dependant it is on lvls. But in general I feel like you get easier access through taking mid, cuz you have shorter way, more safety, and in general more knowledge where the enemies are. So its far easier to calculate the risk of invading
Mid tier 1 may not be worth a lot but the vision access you get after clearing wave is so useful to set up objectives
0:42 Sally learned it from Guma😅😂
If League had an actual discussion culture we wouldn't need to give LS attention. The moment you criticize a players item build or why his pick is bad. Coaches will come out of the woodwork using apologies like nerves, comfort or scrim meta. Like nobody seems to be interested in talking about what champions are actually good in the meta or why Gnar might not be the best pick right now.
i think some people think far far too deep into the game and start thinking about too many tiny things that in reality in the middle of a game would not be the best options due to other things happening in the game, especially LS even tho i agree with a lot of stuff he says about the game, but in the end t1 mid turret is by far the most important and most useful turret to have in the game.
LS really gives vibes of that friend who always has to be right (even if he said the earth is flat)
no for real. He's good I'll give him that, but he's so inflexible and honestly arrogant that it just makes me want to stop listening to him
A lot of that might be due to Autism though. I know many autists, and it surfaces in many different ways, but its very common for other people to misread what an autists actually think. And since he does generally invite discussion and disagreements by others I don't think that he is actually as arrogant as he often seems.
And you know the earth is an oblate spheroid?
u give no vibes cus u are too scared of not being seen as normal. boring most likely underage npc. everything u say is safe, conformists want the credit good people get without actually being good people, so they identify as normal in their small group of invisible boring nobodies (big news for you, normal people are a minority, BOOOO scared?) so boring
ALL i know is i always heard LS talk like hes some league visionary and guru yet i legit never seen him predict a single draft on games hes watched live meanwhile Pedrito here I've never heard him say like he knows league stuff better than anyone and that ppl should hear and do what he says cause he's right yet hes always SPOT ON on drafts and macro, that's all i know. (pls unban me from stream xddKiss -> neverluckynext )
I think LS does not understand how to make points. I'm glad Max Waldo was on the video, bcs he talked about the whole open up the map thing, which means not much most of the time if you don't have the comp for it to push (especially awful for the comp highlighted in the video). The potential to gain anything from "Opening up the map" plus the gold gain from the tower is not worth throwing the game over, or really using as a base to make any plays at all over. Especially if you're playing a comp that wants to move slow. Competitive LoL is really messy rn, and I think the concepts from other games they bring up could be useful if applied well. Competitive starcraft is so much more efficiently played, and the pros are held to a much higher standard. It's much more enjoyable to watch than NA, that's for sure. 100T has insase resources when compared to the top starcraft players as an org, and they don't get close to caring as much about playing the game correctly, a point well highlighted in the video (that I think is worth laughing about, it's a disgrace these teams)
L take. Watch the recent smackdown episode with blaber to see how much na players actually do care about playing the game as well as possible. You are basing this off of nothing besides the fact that they aren't as good as other players. This is like saying just because I got third in my 5k race that I don't care as much as whoever got first. It's not that I care less, it's just that I'm not as fast.
@@calebgardner2687 The comparison of Third to First in this instance is absurd. NA LoL has some of the highest paid pros in gaming with franchise support, and still barely make it out of groups at words every year. They would do even worse if they didn't get so many placement spots. I know they *care* about playing the game as well as possible. They don't have the *dedication* to reach the level of other professional teams globally, or other games for that matter. Watch the training and focus needed for competitive starcraft 2 and then tell me NA LoL players care. I am not basing it off of performance, I am basing it off of results. No other "sport" on the planet is immune to this judgement style, but NA gets franchising so the region is GG. As soon as everyone starts chovying perfect cs in games, or maybe doing the bare minimum of not throwing the game bot lane lvl2 on teams worth millions I would hear your point.
taking mid T1 is not worth if you have a jungler that doesnt contest enemy jungle because youre sacrificing lane pressure for the ability to contest their jungle but if you dont context you dont have lane pressure the enemy jungler is still farming and has more opportunities to gank mid mid T1 is only a good thing to take if you can also take T2 or get it extremely low so when you have long death timers you can capitalize on it and do a quick inhib or inhib tower take allowing for more pressure on the enemy basically forcing someone to stay mid for easy 4v5s at objs
Same idea in chess if you have space advantage in the center. You can easily maneuver your pieces whether the kingside or queenside, while opponent cannot do the same
And yet the game is often even in chess, even tho somebody (mostly white) has "space in the center". In my opinion this "space" in chess helps you at lower levels, but when you know what you're doing and play opening that just isn't about taking center space (early to midgame), you have the same chance of winning as the one with more space (if the players are even strength). One player (usually black) is always more "clumped up" and has less space, but just temporarily, and in the right moment he uses some pawn break to lets say "open up the map". But there is the right time and there is the wrong time to do it. If you do it too soon, in chess or league, when your pieces (in chess) or your map state/items/teamcomp/etc. (in league) dont allow you to get away with it, just because the mentality is "its always good because it opens up the map" (even tho you are the losing team at that point of the game, which was the situation in the game), it literally opens nothing, because you dont just start roaming in the enemy jungle when the T1 is gone, because you are still scaling at that point vs stronger teamcomp at the moment. So it opens up nothing and you lose something else in return. LS clearly said in that video "if its free, sure, take it", but it wasn't free, the price was really high, and people often overforce the mid T1 tower when the time just isn't right. That was the whole point. :)
A lot of what makes arguments fun/healthy is that you respect the people you are arguing with. LS presents his arguments as fact, and it seems like he looks down on people who he disagrees with, which is enough to make people lose their shit. I think that's the reason people will mad hate LS, whereas Caedrel is very respectful of the arguer, and that will make people WANT TO take the time to hear him out. LS is super smart about the game, he just goes about expressing his takes A.) On twitter, where reading is up to interpretation. And B.) In a condescending manner that makes people want to be less agreeable because they believe he's being a twat.
Idk how they don't understand that it's more easy to make a set up for baron or drake if mid is open for example. It's crazy to me that people are like "BUT LVL 2 TEAR HAVE MORE GOOOLD VALUEEE" like something like that it's important by min 40 of the game lol.
i have never lost a game where my mid turret was up
Washed up nobody pretends to be unintelligent on purpose in a sad grasp for relevance
Analysts have the luxury of hindsight to call decisions stupid.
Yes and no. If it happens over and over then in a way, players should too
Doesnt take hindsight if you know taliyah has ult
That's a bad comment given that LS has been arguing for basically the same thing for years
No. Repeating mistakes over and over, expecting a different result, becomes the definition of insanity.
If you tell someone they built one item wrong and they've never made that mistake before, then sure, you are using hindsight.😅
Ehhh
They are professional players and the expectstion is that they should know not to do certain things or should know to do certain things. That's a point brought up and discussed in the orginal LS video
on a a side note, no hate to Eyla but I do think they might be better off with a different support if there are other options
Caedrel's turning point videos are the current best example for how to illustrate a point about competitive strategy in league of legends right now. The LS vid forgets its own argument halfway through and rambles on tangents. I think there could be a useful case study about when it is incorrect to take mid tower but that is not what LS presented in the video.
An explanation for the "LS has good takes on paper, but not in practice" and the problem with theories.
As an engineer you learn very quickly that theory and practice are different beasts. The reason for it is that in theory you have to make certain assumptions in order to move the science forward. The simplest example is the 'assume no air resistance' in simple physic calculations.
Theory is super useful for getting you in a ballpark, but is limited when a lot of variables are at play.
So for league, having a theory 'mid tier 1 is only 112g so it is not worth the effort of getting it when you want to scale' is flawed in practice. In practice there are thousands of variables that are not set in stone. It is completely situational, and many factors like some Caedrel explained here matter. You could improve the theory by including more variables, where each variable has an impact on the outcome.
Not to mention, humans are the most unpredictable of variables.
Everything you said makes sense to me, I always think of the geographer in the "Little Prince" creating maps of places he's never visitted when I hear outlandish takes from LS. If he had the opportunity to step out of his head and get some hands-on experience again in a comp setting, he could genuinely be a great influence on the way the game is played.
Good theory is always good practice. But good theory Will always take into account multiple scenarios. It is crazy how bad our education system is when an engineer who bases his whole Life around theory is saying theory and practice are different. The problem with ls is that what he is saying is maybe true in one scenario but that doesnt mean ITs good theory.
Btw without theory you would be without a job
@@callo1987for engg theory is just a reference for practical purposes, the calculations and problem solving becomes incredibly impossible going only by theory of taking a proper practical scenario and so a practical experience is an absolute must
@@aimy5637 I understand what you are trying to say but the thing is - how do I say this - in the most impossible practical situation there is still theory that covers it, however it wasn't covered in a particular theory. Lets take as an example Fukushima nuclear disaster. In theory the events that led to it were overlooked as impossible, while in reality the impossible sequence of events actually happened. However that does not mean that theory is DIFFERENT than practice, just that it was a bad theoretical model.
If we reapply that to League. League is an even more closed system. The amount of events that can happen is almost infinitely smaller than in real life.Therefore a good theory is very close to practical application.
And like I said - the problem with most of LS takes is that he uses a very specific line of argument (due to him being autistic) that views the game in a very specific way. That very specific point of view often produces bad theory precisely because the theory itself is not broad enough to cover most of the practical applications.
@@callo1987 yeah that's why many people of science of the past have sayings about theory and practice being the "different beasts", because nowadays our education is system sucks...
The whole point of what he said is mid T1 is not worth enough gold to throw ur whole game over if ur scaling. I’ve seen so many games get throw by a scaling team cause they are desperate to make a play and fight for mid T1
I watch the video and shocks how the video really have a bad structure when he explain his argument.
Taking mid t1 is so importantant to opening up the map and jungle invade potential.
I think both sides have valid points and ultimately see ways for consistent victories differently. I don’t think either is rights, it’s a balance and meta approach which will favour some teams and harm others.
As the average mobility of champions is increasing though, LS is increasingly right. You cant push up because you can be engaged on from much farther away by more kinds of champions. You can rotate but so can they, etc. It is certainly less of an advantage than it was in season 2. With lane swapping being meta, you are both repeat diving one guy and then with the same timing walking to the objective on your side of the map. So the fact that you can walk through mid doesnt matter.
It's a more correct theory than it was a couple patches ago, a year ago, and in all likelihood will continue to be more right.
LS idea with not taking the mid tower is that you don’t get much advantage of it since you are scaling anyways. He often talks a lot about the concept of “the beat down”. And 100 Thieves weren’t the beat down in the game, they shouldn’t play aggressive when it’s TL who have to be proactive. You don’t aggressively engage the enemy team if you have a poke comp, it’s game theory.
At least that was my takeaway from the video.
4:40 they’re wasn’t saying that taking is bad (like sometimes inhib is bad), or „opens up the map” but at that that they’re risking by doing so, and it was wrong place wrong time, and about the opening map - they just hate to use blank statements, and be more reasonable and talk about tangibles
(That the mid tier1 is overrated and ppl aren’t actively thinking of what to do)
I feel like 99% of the people look at the game from a solo queue perspective, it’s probably always good to take t1 mid in sq due to how uncoordinated the game is, however in this situation taking mid t1 doesn’t do anything. It’s the same we had with agurin yeah maybe the play works 80% of the time and provides about a 800 gold for the whole team, or you take the 700 gold with 0 risk.
But that's a fake argument that can be applied to LITERALLY EVERY OBJECTIVE IN THE GAME. That's the issue people have with LS. LS could've made an example about literally any objective throw and made the same video but replace mid turret with nexus turret or baron or whatever. Yeah, making a bad call over an objective and throwing the game isn't good. There's nothing new being said here.
He made the video cuz it's so prevalent even among Korean teams and they don't have a solid reasoning for overforcing mid turret. They'd answer simple mindedly "it opens up the map" or "my coach told me to"@@amethonys2798
Maybe is some extremely optimized theoretical way he could be right. The problem is pros are still struggling to setup objectives so why are we worried about this? I play a lot of tft so that’s an easy example: it’s 100% optimal to keep multiple options open before you decide what comp to play. But also, sometimes you get really confused and there’s a greater chance to mess up when doing this. You might lose some gold to the tower if you take mid tier 1 but also what if the enemy support is stupid and gets caught out in jg cuz he doesn’t respect the new established line of vision? LS is ignoring the “potential” gold that can come from the enemy team have a harder gamestate with mid tier1 down
I think thinking about that is kind of disingenuous. "Potential" is kind of hard to quantify. Like sure, the enemy can mess up and give up free gold, but playing with the intent that people will mess up is not how you should play a game.
LS laughing at people who think different than they do is wrong, especially on a concept that is as old as the game like taking mid turret. I don't really see how that attitude is supposed to be healthy for growing the community and understanding of the game as a whole, but that's kind of the way he is. I respect LS for having unique ideas and approaches to the game a lot of the time but he doesn't always make people want to listen when he's so condescending.
I would refer to taking the mid t1 as enabling options. Like putting your pieces in the center of chess. It doesn’t immediately change the evaluation of the game yet it increases your options, and can make therefore things easier.
Only if you NEED to do something to win. The point of this conversation is that sometimes doing nothing is winning. A scaling comp wants to delay the game as much as possible, therefore taking turret does not enable nor get them closer to their wincon. Taking at minimum 1 dragon does, therefore contesting every dragon does not help them. It is all about recognizing the resources necessary to increase the odds of winning and a t1 when you out scale is pointless.
Good vid, but it completely misses the point of the original vid (which, to be sure wasn't very clearly preseted and had a bad title). First of all, despite the title (probly titled by an editor), they did not once say that taking mid turret is not useful generally. It was precisely about greeding for a turret and investing resources for it when that is not at all your win con of your comp. Good discussion though.
mid teir one gives more map value than all five other outer turrets XD
Should 100T take mid turret in this instance -> is mid tier 1 valuable in general -> StarCraft economy tutorial
LS explanations in a nutshell.
I went into that video thinking it would be educational as to 'why taking mid turret is bad from macro side'. Instead it was all perma flame, perma crying and drama. Cringe deluxe +100
Maybe the mid tier 1 was the friends we made along the way
the sej ult qxdd
56 seconds, 2 likes and 1 bot? Bro fell off; expected at least 3 sexual bots
LS is absorbed with the concept of gold/time management and efficient itimezation. Important concepts indeed, but not as central he thinks they are. This is why I think he could be a fantastic analyst , but not really a head coach nor a stategist coach, he lacks a more hollistic approach for that IMHO.
he could be a decent "adviser" but to be an analyst, you have to be consistent, he is not.
he could be an excellent shitposter at best.
this budget ass justin bieber lookalike never achieved anything and just keeps having shit tier takes everytime.
guy's the definition of dunning-kruger
Wasn't the Streamer of the Year award a community vote award
Mid tier 1 is crucial to top teams like GenG and T1’s macro play
LS just enjoys yapping and using big words and annoy people with his Yes Man army
I think LS is "correct" about the 100t game but words in his post and video so poorly that I am not even sure I actually get what he is trying to say.
The main point is 100t is playing a scaling comp and having more of less equal economy, and the best thing to do is sit back and scale. This part more people will agree (?).
But LS in post and video says, paraphrasing:
"mid is just 112g. It's not worth."
"When people say 'Open up the map they don't know what that means.' and laughs.
They over generalise the situation to 'taking mid tower is always not worth it' and of course it becomes a bad take. Then, the LS video is so chaotic I am not sure LS actually wants to over generalise or is just really bad with words.
Why does he keep saying 'they', did 2 people make the video?
But they do go over the nuances of how much the time and opening up the map is worth depending on team comps and whatnot. Also a large part was going over the risk of forcing a big fight given that their comp scales a lot harder and the concept of feeling the need to "do something" or push for something all the time even if it can cost them too big of a loss
I can't understand why LS still is (or even ever war) a recognizable name in this community. He is narcissistic, toxic, lies about his career at every step and has the worst takes on cooldown, but yet people still engage with him.
LS is truly one of the most frustrating people in league due to his intelectual dishonesty as explained in this video. Using one example to extrapolate on a whole topic, comparing to other games, removing all context and saying its just about 100g. It just reeks of a purposefully extremely limited scope thats dishonest and super cringe
Comparing to other games is not an example of intellectual dishonesty. Removing all context and saying it's about 100g is called hyperboly at worst, not intellectual dishonesty. As to the "one example to extrapolate", wdym, exactly?
I'm pretty sure it's bullshit but I'd like to hear from you nonetheless
@@marcosa2000 A false analogy is a type of logical fallacy that occurs when someone assumes that two things are similar in other ways because they are similar in one way, in this case that’s the SC comparison. Thats intellectual dishonesty. Making the 100g argument while removing other relevant context that others pointed out is both a hyperbole and intellectually dishonest. Using one example to extrapolate why taking mid turret is bad in most or all games (LS used the 100T game) is called using a straw man and is another example of a logical fallacy and intellectual dishonesty. This last piece was pointed out by caedrel who himself said LS should have looked at more games, more examples, more case studies instead of arguing a theory based on one NA game. Hope this helps
@@Nastyhoops LS in his tweet basically said it was bad to force the take of it if you outscale. From his PoV, the only thing you should be getting from that is the 100g each member of the team gets, because you're going to have to wait to outscale anyway. Taking jungle camps or trying to further pressure the enemy can only be bad for you, since you doing nothing wins you the game. Do nothing, outscale and win is his whole strategy. You don't need to take T1 for that.
If you pay any attention to LS' commentary, he has been making that point for years. It's not that he has one example. He has many, many examples. For instance, in the DRX vs TES worlds group stage game in 2020, he mentioned how DRX would have won if they didn't force a fight mid, since they outscale. You are the one saying it's just one example, which it is not. It is many examples over many years, with this one just being the latest example
@@marcosa2000 hey man I’m just critiquing LS’ video for what it is. I obviously have no idea about his DRX vs TES analysis because… he didnt include it in the video… If you find that argument to be so persuasive then he probably should have. Titling a video ‘The problem with taking mid turret’ and then including ONE example from ONE game is clickbaity at best and intellectually dishonest at worst. Given his persona and all the other dishonest elements i listed (which you didnt even respond to) I choose to believe the latter
@@Nastyhoops I don't know what you mean by 'SC comparison' and there was no other fallacy aside from 'assuming 2 things are similar in many ways when they are only similar in 1' that you mention. Which you haven't substantiated and the burden of proof is on you.
But I do agree LS's video could be better. His response to getting what he thinks are bad replies is less than what should be expected. Yet this is an ad-hominem fallacy, is it not? I outlined the point he was trying to make (because he's made it countless times before) and there are (as far as I'm concerned) no logical fallacies. So it's up to you to prove them, since you're the one making the assertion
In my opinion, the point is that even if they open up the map what can they actually achieve after? Why is it imperative to open up the map? Wouldn't you rather open up the map when it is free and not when it costs multiple lives? The argument isn't "you should never take mid turret." No one claimed that. It just made 0 sense to try to take the turret when Taliyah can just say no and you get no immediate benefit or even any benefit in the next 5-10mins when you could win a fight and get it anyway
watch the video and Caedrel will literally answer your questions, buddy.
except taliyah can't say no if you don't randomly manually charge rift herald
@@minutenreis she can just ult when rift walks itself there
@@NickyDusse these are called rhetorical questions. Caedrel tilted me too fast. No one ever claimed there's no merit to taking a turret
so we took rift herald and we're just gonna... not use it? surely there are ways to do this without dying, its at 15% hp and we have a herald charge, that turret should die
i wonder what's the monke race of the one that made the meme at first part
LS flexing his useless starcraft knowledge
ESPORTS AWARDS… neither kai nore speed play any video game competitively wtf are y’all on…
The point wasn't that mid tower doesn't open up the map, but that a generality does not justify what could be a mistake in a specific situation. it's like pointing out someone died from overhydration, but some pleb responds, "But water is good for you."
this. LS and the gang literally kept on asking "well why are you taking it?" and if the only answer is opening the map and doing something then you get the exact result of over forcing on an unnecessary tower and losing control of the game.
that is no theory, that's just a bad move in a specific pro play game that has no overlap to general gameplay
Taking the tower is almost never bad. It's only "bad" if you fail to execute it and throw the game randomly.
It's the same shit with like Nexus towers or any of the neutral objectives. It is ALWAYS good to take them if you can get away with it. The issue is when teams overstay and throw the game.
Just like how you shouldnt take medical advice from someone who failed med school you also shouldnt take advice from someone who failed anything, LS peaked gold or plat if i remember correctly, there is no fucking way i ever take anything he says about the game seriously.
If you are not the beat down (i.e. you are the comp that wins the longer the game goes on, 100T in this case), "opening up the map" by taking mid T1 is useless because your only goal is to be at the relevant fights (soul point, soul or nash) having reached your spikes, which you make sure happens by minimizing variance and risk. The argument for taking mid T1 is that you have more access to enemy T2s, push and jungle camps, but realistically as the scaling comp thats not your goal, you are not incentivized to take T2s/steal jungle camps to pressure the enemy because the longer the game goes the easier it is for you to win.
By far the biggest advantage is that you can push the wave deeper, which allow you to walk into river more risk free, which you absolutely want as a scaling comp, the issue is as caedrel said execution, not intent
@andreihlen7597 yup, access to river and being able to get to objectives first is always really good, especially for scaling comps which typically don't have a ton of engage and currently rely heavily on poke champs which are much more effective when the enemy is coming into you.
Garen is and has been busted for like 12 years...
But they never said that Taking a free mid turret is bad. In this case it wasnt free, they all died 😂
Tldr guys, LS’s video isnt even relevant its pretty bad (and i like ls). His whole point has always been that he doesnt get why teams throw games/disadvantage themselves for things like a herald or t1 mid tower. Some ppl act like if u get t1 id tower you have this massive advantage thats worth losing a team fight for. But yea kinda fake news. Thats all :)
He was just cash grabbing because of how many people were pissed. 40k veiws less than an hour. He got payed.
LS made a video defending a horrible take so he can get view and ad money so he won’t have to sell the black lotus.
LS your on the clock
Context for Oner clip???
Tom kinda grape his ass oner was taken a back
Gay men sex
Looks like the man next to him touched oner in a way oner found uncomfortable.
You open up the map.
To do what? Thats the question.
Every time you do a thing, it should be to accomplish another thing. It shouldnt be some nebulous "maybe," but it should have an actual goal in mind.
"Our team has lee or ali and taking mid tower allows us an easier path to get behind the enemy to displace them using kick or whatever making it easier to target the carry."
Fine.
But simply "it opens up the map" doesnt mean anything.
Open up the map -> more space -> more options -> accelerate your team's wincon
Open up the map -> more options for your team and more uncertainty for the other team. For any early to mid game objective mid turrent is the most valuable.
Did he not literally show exactly in the video what opening up the map will accomplish or what the options are? Or did we not watch the same video lol
@@justespelund You are agreeing with LS and Max's point though? Taking the tower has as much value as you can use it to gain other advantages, e.g. via rotation. When choosing between different options, you should estimate how much value this is. When estimating this value, you should consider both team comps, especially your mid and jungle. How much value do you think Smolder and Zyra will generate using those rotations on average?
@@stefanrabenstein3753Depending on how they play, they can gain a lot. Fast pushing and running bot or top with your jungler for a tower dive for example is something any champ can do.
LS never said it’s super bad thing to do/troll but his talking about what is more efficient and optimal if the scenario would be played again. So many here in comments think that if the headline says ”ls thinks taking mid turret is bad” in the same way as he talked about freezing waves 5 years ago what noone was doing but now everyone does it because it’s just better. I’ve watched LS a lot so i would let it take time to see if people do this and it happens to be better. Before that it’s actually ”he said she said scenario” -> Caedrel said the same thing in this video that he might be right but we need more scenarios like this.
Insane LS hate comment section
Idk.. I just can't take LS seriously since he made a 2h+ interview about leaving the scene and nobody appreciating him just to delete it and come back 2 weeks later
LS is the most insecure "famous guys" i ve seen. No arguments at all, just justifying everything on the base of him being smart (???) and those who dont agree superdumb. If you dont believe me, try arguing with him in his dm, i assure you he will answer.
LS unfortunately is a poor communicator. He should of just said this, scaling teams should only ever do things where the risk is very low, as time is on their side. But the thing is every silver idiot and up knows this. But you also want to mitigate opportunities that you afford the enemy team
LS is the living redditor stereotype.
I don't think LS understand what a turn or tempo is
I'm sure he does, but just thinks playing conservative with your tempo if you outscale is better than forcing random objectives. It ain't that deep fam
W PEDRO
LS is clueless :)
lol take a shot each time LS brings up starcraft/streetfighter/teken in any argument that LS is in. "Erm actually, if you follow esports for the past 20 years you can see that xxx did yyy in starcraft. zzz is a top player at tekken back in the day so league should follow blah blah blah" 🤓🤓🤓
LS dumb hot take of the month this time came with extra stupidity
if kai cenar should have won, why did nobody vote for him?
LS is such a weird guy idk why people watch him honestly, he seems so dishonest
? he was usually one of the most honest league creator out there. he usually admitted his wrong takes immediately when people actively challenged them in a constructive manner. but when 95% of league community perma hates on him, cuz they just parrot streamers who just immitate video headlines themselves. like until 22 LS was always willing to engage with random chatters and their takes and go through his and the challenging point of view. he just broke after 4 years of the exact same drafts and the perma hate he got from people who actively refused to stand their own point of view.
like we never really got to see people challenge him in a conversation exept for a few instances (which were usually the most educational ones, cuz DUH, conversations can be really constructive).
and he is incapable of articulating things in a more...connecting (?) way, which made it hard to understand him for most people ig.
@@stagaries1696 everyone hates LS because he's despicable ^.^
@@stagaries1696 I don't like LS because he carries himself as if he was League's foremost authority on all subjects, only to be proven wrong most of the time.
@@vaqueroliquido7339 "most of the time" what are you refering to? soraka, ivern, ldr, liandries, him saying proteams dont "draft" when they literally dont exept for few teams like DK, geng and g2? also, when he said "draft x is better" but y won, doesnt mean hes wrong. if a team has a baseline of winning 10%, but their draft gives them a chance of 20% theyre still 4 times as likely to lose, so them losing doesnt disprove his point (it also doesnt prove it, but usually only wildcard teams were the ones going for innovation).
not like we see a completely gutted version of ivern in proplay now, with less effective item.
also how do you think should he change his view if noone actually constructively addresses his points? because people say so? thats just a weak argument. galileo shouldve stopped advocating a heliocentric world view aswell, cuz 99.999% the earth to be the center aswell?
people always just say "hes wrong" or "hes so rude!". hes he an asshole about it and should he learn how to articulate himself more politely? 100%!!! but saying only that doesnt help creating a constructive debate about the actual points. i mean the guy above can continue saying that LS is despicable, and he might be right to some extent but him saying that, is also just cringe, cuz nobody benefits from him expressing his hate. unless people think hate is worth more than improving knowledge via debates with actual arguments.
Every "react" if caedrel is a scam of my time.
So much word to say so little
Who cares about what LS thinks? This guy is just a narcissist who can never admit he is wrong. Just move on and let the man child seethe
Common LS L
But how does this affect lebrons legacy?