Thank you Robert for your wise advice. I am grateful for the respect you showed me with regard to my lack of towing experience. I hope this video helps others as you intend. Keep producing your excellent videos. They are invaluable !
Andrea, thanks for your honest feedback from such an unfortunate incident. It reminds all of us that we are only ever about 4 seconds from potential disaster. In my case, my wife doesn't hold a license and wouldn't know a brake pedal from a differential!!! So, it is up to me to do 100% of the driving. Just between you and me, I'm happier that way...I've seen the way she operates a vacuum cleaner and let's just say: It ain't pretty!!! hahaha Robert suggested to his viewers that both partners should practice towing regularly. I can only endorse those sentiments and hope you can build your own confidence in the short term and be in a position to again share the driving. All the very best to you both for many happy future travels.
@@billroach2393 I agree Bill, and I very strongly beg to differ when people insist on sharing the driving if one driver is inexperienced. (I know couples where the wife does all the driving, which is great, and I’m not being “sexist”.) My wife is actually a great driver, but has never towed even a box trailer. Suddenly forcing her to drive with a 3tonne van on the back would be crazy, and right out of her comfort zone. On the other hand I have 50 years experience towing heavy caravans and boats, with zero accidents. Worst case: we leave the van somewhere and get it trucked home, (my wife can happily drive with no van), or get one of our sons to tow it home. That’s why we have RACQ ultimate. I believe this “share the driving thing” is often a flawed argument.
Sharing the driving doesn't work for everyone, but it seems that more couples could, and should share the drive for safety reasons. And why would it need to be sudden? Get training, start easy...how did you learn, did you suddenly go straight to a 3t trailer?
Robert I'm a 65 year old man retired from 31 years semi truck driver and have owned and pulled camper trailers and all ways used anti sway wieght distributors and still am very careful and worry on interstate hiways and still with all my experience am learning things from you thank you sir
I have towed for many years and now tow a 2.6 tonne caravan. My observations are 1. Most people do not understand the various tow limits for their vehicles and end up being overladen. 2. Most people underestimate how heavy all the stuff is they put in their car and caravan. Do they really need a second beer fridge, generator etc etc. 3. People drive too fast when towing - I sit on 92 on cruise and sits comfortably. Take off cruise downhill and uphill and take it easy. Glad to see this couple survived this crash
Great video as usual. I experienced trailer sway many years ago and survived it. One of the scariest things in my life. Realising you are about to lose control of a car at high speed is something you never forget. Any information to make travel safer greatly appreciated. Thanks Mr Pepper.
@@L2SFBC Well done Robert - I've been enjoying the practicality of your videos and even shared them with others. I have friends who are really stuck on manufacturer tow ratings and can't understand why they are white-knuckled most of the time when towing. The abc's and xyz's presented in your towing videos are excellent. I hope more people subscribe and become educated. Here in Canada there is no requirement for driver training to tow even very large trailers. Seems it's the same in Australia. I also notice the laws of physics are the same. :) Keep up the good work.
Phew. Great video. I am doing my research before I buy tow vehicle and caravan. This is very sobering. Some great lessons here. Proper caravan brake controllers are so critical.
There were some interesting points made through this video. I'm certainly an advocate of Towing certification or even a Towing licence. Interesting Amanda was feeling anxious and aware of having so many other road users following behind them at the lower speed. I have no issue people driving slower to their personal conditions however pull over and allow other users to pass safely when possible. Consideration of other road users is equally important for safety. The people behind you could also feel anxious, impatience and potentially push them to do stupid things like unsafe passing, road rage etc. Simple towing road etiquette is worth learning to compliment any towing courses. Well done Trevor and Amanda for telling your experience. Safe future travels.
@@FutureSystem738 A very good point, one that lots of lingual truck drivers unfortunately do not recognise. More overtaking lanes on our highways would help relieve the angst.
@@stuartthorn696 Yes, agreed. The worst case I ever had was a few years ago heading North on the Bruce Highway in late August. It was a day of EXTREME Westerlies, so extreme that I would not have been on the road with a caravan given a choice- but we had a long way to go and a family wedding to attend. I eventually settled at mostly around 80-85 kmh on most sections. Anyway our very stable caravan was being blown all over the place, just like other vans (and even many trucks) - yet the abuse on the UHF from some truckies was unbelievable. There was one in particular who kept swearing about caravans and I said to him words to the effect of: “If one of these caravans, (or a truck), loses control, the delays you’re experiencing will blow out from a few minutes to many hours.” It didn’t stop his swearing at all. I’m sure he’d describe himself as a “professional driver”- when in fact he’s really a disgrace who shouldn’t have a licence.
That accident looked awful! I am so thankful those two people are here to speak to us about their experience. There's a lot to be said for having a heavy and powerful tow vehicle. My original purchase had a braked rate of 2500 and I thought that would be appropriate for my van that was rated also to 2500. Taking the whole set up to the weighing experts showed me how wrong I was. Though I'd only had the car for a couple months I knew my safety was far more important than the hassle of changing cars. I hope Andrea feels better/more confident after her course and keeps up her skills - just in case they're needed.
nailed it again, good job. All "professional" installers should know to put the button/controller in the centre if at all practical. I forgot to specify when I had/let the dealer organise the install and the location is terrible, down low near the driver's knee (at the door). Previously when I installed it my self on the last car, I put it in the centre for obvious reasons.
Same near my right knee. I forgot to tell them. I've memorized where it is so I can get to it fast without looking although I realize that I'm going to need 2 hands on the wheel.
I think the biggest problem of all with towing vans in Australia is the propensity to overload the tow vehicle with too big a van. The manufacturers don't help either - specifying a maximum towing capacity that is way higher than the weight of the vehicle is criminal, as in say a Triton that weighs 2000kg can tow 3100kg. My solution is to limit towing capacity to 70% of tow vehicle weight for "domestic" rigs which are mostly driven by untrained drivers. This would mean said Triton can only tow 1400kg van.
That's a good idea Ein, but unfortunately the caravan market just isn't set up that way in Australia. Appears to be zero concern about weight of van or dynamics.
That should be mandatory rules. Also like In The video it showed a Pajero flipping after a overtaking manuvre . That's pretty fast going why such a hurry. They are on holidays. Drive easy and stick to a road comfortable speed and under the limit. Every one is in such a hurry these days !! :) Glad Andrea was going slowly at 80 or so. Good thinking.
The specs given by manufacturers are what you might load up to go round the corner to the horse paddock or boat ramp if you have to. But many people are blissfully unaware of this. Anytime the trailer mass is greater than the tow tug mass is a time for greater anxiety. At least it is for me. It's just physics. I'd like to see more of those large US pick up trucks on the road rather than the standard holiday rig. Safer for everyone.
@@DavesShed Yep, I chatted with a fellow caravanner who had towed for many years with all sorts of tow vehicles from 79 series to D-Max and the like. His new rig was a chevy suburban ute - a giant thing! He was using far less fuel than ever before towing the biggest van he had ever had, with zero stability issues even down steep roads in the wet.
Wow! What an eye-opening video. I'm glad you are both okay, and I've learned a lot from this. Thank you for sharing and I hope you are feeling more confident.
As an expansion to point 1, practicing towing the trailer prior to the first holiday. Ensuring the weights are similar to the planned holiday. With testing and practice, drivers can learn the effective settings for the electronic brakes in ideal conditions and learn which settings are totally ineffective at slowing the trailer. Loading up weight in the tow vehicle but not exceeding GVM, is another key way to assist with additional stability. Especially if the tow vehicle is not that heavy, the bare minimum should be in the trailer/caravan.
Excellent video and good on them both for being so frank and upfront of their lack of knowledge in what’s involved in towing and the setting up procedures required for safer towing. They are both very lucky to have survived that accident with no serious injuries. My father drove “all sorts of trucks” for a living and he was very knowledgeable in the art of towing. He told me that driving a semi-trailer with very heavy loads is completely different to driving a car/4WD and towing heavy weights. He taught me how to drive and also how to tow. His best piece of advice was, weight distribution is extremely important and tow ball weight as well. Obviously there are many more aspects to the art of safe towing etc, etc. The one thing he always hammered home to me was, the old saying of...”The tail wagging the dog.” That being of course, the tow vehicle (semi-trailers excluded) should be heavier than the weight of whatever you are towing. If this was to become law, there would definitely be less instances of trailer sway accidents and towing accidents in general.
Thank you, and agreed on all fronts. This video shows weight distribution importance -> ruclips.net/video/JeEEC5eVNCk/видео.html and this post deals with the common myth about semis and caravans l2sfbc.com/why-a-prime-mover-isnt-the-same-as-a-towcar-and-caravan/
@@L2SFBC Thanks for providing these links, l will most definitely view them. Keep up the good work. I have already learned much from watching your excellent videos. Thanks again. 😊👍👍
It used to be the law in some states, I don’t know how or why it was changed. A consequence was that you could no longer tow a loaded double horse-float with say a Holden Kingswood. Davox.
I left Brisbane with our new van and it was very loosy goosy.It was really quite scary.Got to the sunshine coast and filled both water tanks steady as a rock after that both tanks are forward of the axle.also turned the brakes up a bit on the trailer and just gave them a little touch going down hill made a big difference.was able to sit on 100kmh no problem.
Very good video with accurate info. It must be mandatory for all towers to undertake a course and have an up graded licence. Heavy vehicle must upgrade and complete a course over 4.5t gvm, but towers can tow up to 9.5t (?) gcm unassisted. I tow with a Pajero and Mitsubishi recommend fitting a weight distribution hitch when towing heavy loads ie whenever the attitude of the vehicles is changed. Kudos to this couple for speaking out publicly.
This is AWESOME! They dont teach you this when your learning how to drive! Good stuff! Im getting ready to tow 800 miles round trip only two days away! I will be double checking ALL my gear!
A good simple to follow video, I am very happy with my 5th wheeler and have had to avoid swaying caravans on our travels around Australia. Sadly seen several in the position of Andrea's. I am glad they are Ok. Regards Steve.
I bought a brand new 17 ft caravan in 2017. Towed it with a Pajero Sport. Even with an anti sway hitch had sway issues on a few occasions. Got advice regarding loading from an expert all good there. Decided to sell the caravan as my wife was having anxiety issues. Happy wife happy life now.
All this could be avoided overnight if you had "Differential Stability" It is proactive and needs no action by the driver to keep the caravan stable - In the time I had it installed (7 years and 25,000 miles) only one instance in thousands of miles - in the south of France I was cruising along a country road a 50 mph when a sign appeared warning of an "uneven road" in French - by the time we figured what it was we hit a bump in the road that threw the front of the car across the road and then the rear end made it kick the back with the caravan attached and then the van hit the bump that lifted the wheels off the road. All hell broke lose and we held our breath. In seconds the combination (With two electric bike strapped to the back of the caravan) settled down by simply doing nothing but keep it straight and caravan system followed suit - happy days.
Great video. We tow our caravan with a 2010 Pajero, like most 4 WD’s they are not designed to tow heavy loads and are mainly touring vehicles. We did some basic modifications to the Pajero suspension and tyres with stiffer walls which improved its towing ability and also put the same types on the van. Like others have said ESC is a plus for safety for the van, a few times it saved us because of the unevenness of some of the roads we travelled.
My first time experiencing trailer sway I was 16 years old and when I got to the farm for work that morning I was told that the hay wagon was loaded and promised delivery a half hour before I was even supposed to clock in and they were impatient wondering where their hay was. I hooked up and took off to try and keep everyone happy. The trailer ended up in each sides wheels 3 times before I was able to get it back settled down. It was more luck than anything else that I didn't roll. It doesn't matter how upset someone else gets. It's your responsibility as the driver to make sure the load is correct. TAKE YOUR TIME regardless to verify things.
Thanks Robert.....and thanks to your guests as well. Without wanting to sound like a keyboard warrior, I must comment on the set-up of that MDC van....those 2 big, HEAVY spare tyres hanging off the back is such a glaring issue for me. It may not have been a contributing factor...but it wouldn't have done the dynamics of the rig any favours either. For what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly with your assertions, but I would go one giant step further... I wouldn't EVER consider towing a trailer that was any heavier than about 75% of the fully laden weight of the tow vehicle. It is for that reason that I tow my 3,500kg (ATM) Bushtracker caravan with a Chev Silverado which has a GVM of almost 5,200kg (and is usually fairly close to 5 tonne when traveling). These rigs that are right on the edge of their (legal) capabilities have no wiggle room when the excrement hits the fan.
Yes, I'm no fan of the twin spares on the back and on my own van have now dropped one. Same for the tanks. That'll be covered in more detail later. Yes, I'm a huge fan of the American utes for towing; long wheelbase, short overhang, heavy, lots of power, often towing mirrors, exhaust brakes...made to tow!!!
@@L2SFBC you are quite correct about the inherent safety of using a large "yank tank" for towing. One thing I will say though...as you may be aware these trucks come with factory-integrated electric trailer brakes (in addition to exhaust brakes and "Tow/Haul" mode that increases drivability when towing too). However, with my particular model (2012 Silverado Heavy Duty), I found that having the electric brake control being mounted down under the dash near my right knee area, was simply impractical to use in an emergency. It was also difficult to make minute adjustments to the sensitivity settings on-the-fly. So, I disconnected the factory electric brakes and fitted Redarc Tow Pro Elite V3 which is mounted higher on the central portion of the dash, beside the stereo system. It is MUCH better suited to making fine adjustments and also to being able to press it in case of emergency.
Agree, the 2 spares add a lot of weight just where you don't want it- at the furthest point behind the van axle. Not just that, many hybrid vans also have 3 heavy AGM batteries behind the axle, and high sidewall tyres that become very squirmy when not fully inflated.
Good video. My dad drilled into me " The tow vehicle has to weigh more than what you are towing". You could have said more about loading the van properly as well as adjusting the tow bar hitch for correct height. Also a bit harsh on Mitsubishi considering the age difference. A credit to the couple having the courage to talk about it and intending to step into the ring again. Cheers.
There will be another video on sway prevention, and yes I was careful to mention the relative age of the vehicles. Although t it wouldn't change much if you looked at 2021 versions.
Robert, another point viewers need to know. That caravan's ATM exceeds the Pajero's towing max. They may have been towing it under its ATM but its not advisable to tow a trailer with an ATM equal or more than the tugs nominated weight for it. These poor folk have been sold a caravan unsuitable for the tug.
Thanks Robert for the explanation of this particular situation. I have experienced slight trailer sway going down hill with a prime mover passing. Fortunately our new van and Prado both have sway control. Have since found out from doing a towing course with my wife we need more weight on the tow ball. I have since purchased a tow ball scale and will start experimenting with filling water tanks to increase the ball weight. I’m on a steep learning curve and I don’t want to be a statistic.
Always wary of advice to simply increase towball mass and not consider anything else. Lots of other things may be a problem too. Watch for a video on this in future, I'm making a long list of things to do, some easy, some not. And "just add mass" is NOT a solution every time!
See John Cadogan's explanation of the Bernoulli Effect... The high slab sides of a truck/trailer unit combined with the effect of the slab-sided travel trailer passing each other creates a vortex of rushing air between the two vehicles. Trucks being bigger and heavier come out OK... Caravans instantly sway when leaving the area of influence re the sides of the truck, and crash unless the driver of the travel trailer/toy hauler/caravan towing vehicle can instantly hit the brake controller button.....
The debate goes on and on - slow down, put weight here or there, check your tyres, don't brake , accelerate etc etc - It is all nonsense and can be solved by simply fitting a control system with the correct proactive, easy to fit and low cost system. But whilst the industry just turns a blind eye for one reason or another the carnage will continue.
I believe the only two significant factors relating to trailer sway are speed and weight distribution. The only way to correct a sway situation is to brake the TRAILER heavily so as to pull the combination into a straight line. That requires a quick response via the hand operated trailer brake control. Drivers of vehicles towing heavy trailers appear to be more conscious of keeping up with the traffic flow than the laws of physics. That big heavy trailer will quickly oversteer your tow vehicle if you do not allow for the unexpected.
Just read your comment and agree entirely, born and bread on a farm I started towing from the age of 10. My father always instilled in me about load distribution and from listening from the start of the couples situation they had issues with the van sway even before the crash to me it sounds like there was a problem with the loading or incorrect tyre pressure. I believe that there should of been a far more instruction on towing before she got behind the wheel this is no place to learn behind the wheel, at no time did I hear the husband say to hit the brake controller button if it starts to sway badly. The other thing is I personally never use Cruise Control as this video shows seconds count in these situations.
No matter how careful you are it does happen. Bloody scary. It happened to me many times towing other people's caravans as a tow truck driver over 30 years and now for myself. That's when I realised why people were paying me to tow their caravan and boat to to their destination, pre electronic brakes. LOL Glad to see you made it out ok. Cheers 🇭🇲👍😄🍻🍻
I know the couple would agree with this now. If you have any trailer sway, there is something wrong with your setup. Robert you completely right, your car trailer combo should have no trailer sway at all up to the speed limit or even slightly over. I'm sure if they got there car trailer setup checked out by a professional and told how to stop trailer sway if it does happen, this accident wouldn't have happen. It does worry me now that she says i will not be any driving, I will leave that to hubby, now this can cause an accident, being tired when towing can be a killer as well, need to share the driving.
wow! - really good advice / design risk management on the placement of the electric brake controller, not something that would have got on my radar - thankyou - Perhaps redarc and other manufacturers could up their game and make mention of this in thwir installation manual
The one thing that was not addressed and would have been good to know is what was the TBW I have found a lot of crashes have been caused by not having enough weight on the tow ball hence not proper distribution of weight in the trailer.
I disagree. I own the same model and towed it stock standard. No sway. It is far too simplistic a view to always focus only on TBM for any sway situation. It is important but just one of many factors.
I practice getting my thumb on the Redarc button occasionally while I’m on a towing run. I’ll sit on 90 and if the wind is bad or I don’t feel everything’s smooth I’ll sit on 80. I’ve been in a similar situation as these guys as a passenger, I was just nodding off too and nothing wakes you up like a trailer death wobble. We were just north of 3ways in the territory.
On our recent holiday felt something wrong at below our normal cruising speed. Two things, very strong cross winds hence the slower speed, combined with very grooved sealed road from heavy usage, Looked in mirror and van was swaying my action was to take foot off. Obviously car and van have different wheel track and were fighting over the who owned the grooves. I have been towing vans for over 50 years and that was a first. No one ever mentions road surface .
Towing with half filled water tanks is a problem, with the weight of the water at 1kg a liter , the water sloshing. Around will effect the stability of the trailer. One either travels with full tanks or empty tanks.
Robert, deftly handled video. I rarely tow, but it's good to be aware. Wife won't let me drag home any more "project" cars. We share the driving on any longer trips.
I have over 40 yrs of towing and currently tow a 3.2T /25 ft van using a 100 series landcruiser for towing. My experience is to never use cruise control to tow because as soon as something happens like sway the cruise control will immediately try to accelerate the vehicle and make the problem worse. My experience to control a sway issue - it needs the van manual brake applied progressively together with slowing the vehicle. Speed and inexperience seems to lead to problems with new vanners who think they can tow just great at any speed ! Heavy application of the vehicle brakes will just enhance the sway issue. Van loading is important for correct ball weight, vehicle loading / balance. I use vehicle air bags, H.R. levellers together with a H.R. sway device that works well with the levellers and a McHitch 360 deg. coupling. Also every now and then watch the van tail in the rear view mirrors especially if you detect any unusual movement as this can help to pre-empt a problem (tyre pressure). Finally a coupling weighing device to check all is good does confirm all is set up correctly and they are not expensive. Happy vaning 😂 G.H.
As I’m not Australian I’m not sure the braking rules for trailers up to 3500kg but in NZ, and Europe, we can use the English Alko, not sure if other companies make them, system which is non electric and no controls in the cab. There’s no lag in the brakes activating like the common piston type but obviously the tow vehicle brakes have to be used. From personal experience they work very well recovering from a sway situation with a 3500kg trailer behind a Ranger.
Re weight distribution in the trailer, I notice that this van claims 2170kg Tare but only 140kg on the towball - I would have thought this wasn't enough as we seem to be recommending 10% of the total van weight on the ball in Aus for single axle trailers.
The 10% is a figure that's too fixated on. I own the same one and it towed just fine from the factory, and when I've loaded it. Mine is at 160kg TBM, well below 10% and I have no intention of increasing it to 10%. It weighs around 2300kg loaded, so well short of 230kg which would be 10%.
I think the biggest highlight here is inexperience. The problem is, how do you get that experience? Well obviously doing a course and being tested to tow is a good start. I’ve been towing for years and still learning. I regularly tow heavy boats and what I’m taking away from this video and others is other than the setup, speed is intrinsic to safety. Ive also found that you must have both hands on the wheel at all times and be ready to use those trailer brakes. Thanks guys
just a couple of points the pajero is about 2230kg then add the bull bar then it is about 3000kg I had one the trailer stability control is only on the VX and Kaka doo variants so you also need to consider in the case the greatly reduced pay load of the prado as this will very likely reduce the ability to tow the same van. So while I understand the discussion you are putting forward there are some important aspects that should have been included.
I think it should also be pointed out that a Pajero uses monocoque construction but the Prado on the other hand is designed around a full ladder chassis, this is a very important point when choosing a tow vehicle. Regarding stability issues I think people should be aware that if their setup is well designed, loaded correctly (not loading too much to the rear of the van) and a sensible choice between tow vehicle and caravan size is chosen their rig should be rock solid in most circumstances. I have towed a van all around Australia and never have I encountered the tail wagging the dog syndrome.
I have a tow vehicle which has stability control but I also have stability control fitted to the caravan and it has definitely saved me from rolling. I was traveling along a highway when two pushbikes fell off the car in front of me. I quickly check the mirror and pulled on the steering wheel. I then suddenly remembered about the caravan attach to the back of my vehicle. I didn't have 3 or 4 seconds for the car stability system to bring it under control. From the first second I was in serious trouble and likely to roll on the first sway. I looked in the mirror again and smoke was coming from the caravan tyres as the caravan stability control pulled the caravan straight behind my 4wd. The stability system was working before I had even realized that I was in trouble. I even got a discount when I first took out my caravan insurance because I had the system fitted. They weren’t interested in the fact that it was also on the tow vehicle. I am sure it could help on the car but there is nothing like applying the brakes on the caravan.
Robert, excellent video and thanks to the folks who had this accident. There is one think I do not understand: did. the new van had not an anti sway system fitted from ex works? Or did it not functioned ????? Cheers
Not sure how the Pajero and Prado compare, but something else to consider is the distance between the rear axle line and the towball. The further it is, the more control the van has over the car, the shorter it is, the more control the car has over the van. That's why so many dual cab utes have poor towing characteristics, and indeed chassis failures.
I measured that on a Ranger and Everest and surprisingly, the Everest was a fraction longer!!! But often with utes there's extended hitches fitted and THAT is definitely a problem!
Very good video thanks Robert. Do you think inertia brake controller settings do not help in this situation compared to instant (what ever the dial is on) normal setting. That way putting the foot on the brake however little gives more instant braking
Yes definitely, but for sway control, that requires the towcar to slow down. To control sway you need to get the trailer speed below the towcar, so this is why braking the trailer alone is ideal.
I didn’t see anything in the video mentioned about weight distribution spring bar with friction sway control which is extremely helpful in reducing the tendency of sway getting out of control. I have had the spring bar with friction sway control since day one. I would not tow without one.
In this particular case, I believe the main reason is that the lady pressed the brake that made the vehicle slow down but the trailer didn’t which caused the sway becoming even more severe. If the brake controller was used to slow down the trailer, the crash might have been avoided.
We should have a licence endorsement for this precise reason. Loads and lashing, weight distribution, etc are taught and examined when you progress into the "heavy vehicle" licence classes. I concede this will never happen in our great commonwealth of conflicting states.
Correct 2008 Pajero weight is 2310kg - 2017 prado is 2330kg prado is only 20 kg heavier . Also the second she touched the brakes the cruise control would have cancelled automatically.
No, the 2008 model is lighter than 2310kg. Later models got a bit heavier. Yes, the brakes would have cancelled the cruise but by then it was too late - the point was that the vehicle acclerated beyond a speed the driver wanted because she didn't know cruise didn't retard downhill.
I used to race in the mid 90's and on the way back from a race I ran into a SEVERE trailer sway. Thank God that there was a slight curve in the road that helped me regain control. Reason for the trailer swaying : my load was wrong, my race car was crashed and we loaded it backwards on the trailer. That means the engine was at the back of the trailer and on a double axle trailer that is detrimental. I wasn't going too fast either 95km/h. I was in convoy with other participants and all of were a bit shook by the incident. We dropped the speed and drove the last 200 km home doing 80 km/h. The trailer had a brake unit that worked off of the tow hitch, but those are dodgy at best. I learned my lesson very quickly and now all ways bias the weight to the front of the trailer. That keeps the arse of the tow vehicle down, reducing the tendency to sway.
2 things that standout straight away is the very close to capacity towing weights, for example an older car isn't going to perform the same as it's out of the showroom. Brakes won't be the same, suspension, wear an tare on the car etc. Also using cruise control, you absolutely never use cruise control during towing, it's written in every owners manual as per manufacturers specifications, especially with adaptive cruise control that will activate braking systems very aggressively.
Hi Robert As an engineer it's very important that when towing with adaptive cruise control and setting distances between you and the car in front (when towing this would mean that people would set further distances) a car over takes and gets within the distance set, this would cause your car to apply rapid braking thinking the car in front is under rapid braking. Thus potentially causing the load to shift and unsettling the load, if you then continue on, this can cause exactly what has happened here and in your experiments. Therefore is not recommended in towing conditions.
I see your point, and will disagree: - if rapid braking needs to be done, it needs to be done. Adaptive cruise only brakes harshly when needed, and a human would need to do the same. - modern systems with modern brake controllers will apply the trailer brakes during active cruise. I agree cruise can lead to dangerous situastions, but in itself is not inherently dangerous.
Hi Robert You're very much entitled to your opinion but not your own facts. WARNING: Do not use adaptive cruise control on winding roads, in heavy traffic or when the road surface is slippery. ... WARNING: Do not use adaptive cruise control when towing a trailer that has trailer brakes. The auto-brake component of the adaptive cruise control system does not operate the trailer brakes.
The first part is not specific to towing. For the second look at advanced brake controller such as the ToWPro Elite which operates through trailer brakes under Adaptive cruise. The instructions say to take the trigger from the brake light not pedal operation.
U could on a hwy set brake controller to a higher position so if u press car brake the van will pull up first stop sway , but in towns an city turn it back to normal, first reaction when van sways is to hit brake pedal easier i recon
@Irene and Bob Murray That was pretty much what I was going to say. We just picked up our van from Qld and towed it back home to Sydney, overtaking trucks etc, and no dramas. Van towed perfectly, and had the added piece of mind with the ESC that was fitted as part of the build specs..... Glad they walked away, and will learn from the experience.
Re the cruise control comment & electric brake adjustment in the cab, I found u can use the cruise control but make sure the bias is towards the trailer (so trailer does the work). Our tow car doesn’t speed up over the setting even on big hills, and when it’s retarding speed the brake lights come on triggering the trailer brakes. The car’s computer doesn’t care what is doing the actual braking, just that it’s braking. I’ve had scenarios where bias is towards the car and on larger hills the cruise control gets overpowered & won’t slow enough. If I don’t intervene the car would’ve sped up. Also engine braking is fine but I’ve found engine braking alone won’t slow it down enough on big hills. There really should be more courses around and affordable so we all don’t have to learn these things ourselves when supposed to be on holidays. Also agree if you aren’t comfortable doing 100km/h on straight flat bits then something is seriously wrong with you or your setup. We shouldn’t be holding up traffic on single lane roads. Thanks so much for putting these videos together, it’s made the world of difference to me when towing. When someone has told me I’m doing something wrong I can always set them straight by referring them to your work.
ooh and the partially filled water tank would have got a real sway going due to the Free Surface Effect with happens when water sloshes back and forth or side to side.
This is a great example of why anybody wanting to tow anything should have to demonstrate an ability to do so safely and get a permit to go along with there license to see van parks after van parks putting in drive thru sites so people are not disturbed for hours whilst attempting to back into a sight
Hi, I have just bought an Outlaw HTO 14Feet. I am very new in towing caravans and I wonder do you have any recommendations for anti-sway systems in this model? I did asked the seller if he ever has anti sway system on this van and he said no, no need as the front A chassis is very short anyway. But for me I am new and he is an very experienced caravan driver already so I am thinking best to ask for your help. I saw there are either weight distribution hitch with anti sway system or something called BMPro SwayControl Proactive Electronic Stability Control for example. I wonder which one is more practical to Outlaw HTO model considering its a compact van? And also Do I have to buy a weight distribution system as well? I wonder that are the differences between those two systems? Thanks.
Check out my Trailer/Caravan Sway Electronic systems video. Explains car and trailer based anti-sway systems. A short drawbar is less stable than a long one so your seller is wrong. Don't buy a weight distribution system unless you need to and the carmaker has said it's compatible with your car. You're right to be doing research, well done!
@@L2SFBC thank you. my question is, why not why a weight distribution system? are you saying as long as the ball weight is within the manufactory range then it should be ok?
Just survived a very nasty crash caused by sway. I was towing a large 10 mts long RV with an old RAM Van that was empty and has the v6 on it. The vehicle was absolutely over its limits, the trailer was very unstable and the road didn't help. Please tow with big pickup trucks or big SUV's like a suburban. The heavier, more powerfull and longer axle to axle length the better. Never think it is ok to push or go over your vehicles limit once or twice. I've towed constantly and successfully for over 5 years, I know fisics very well and I understand how forces play on this scenarios, I really am over the average driver on my understanding of this, but I was over confident and thought I could get away with one small run. I lost the RV, the Van, almost lost my life and My dad's life. Please keep your self well within the limits of your rigs and the limits of your skills.
When towing (suv towing a small cargo trailer) should I pack my actual vehicle a certain way? Should I put as much weight as possible in the cab of .y vehicle to limit the weight on the trailer? If I should load both the cab and the trailer how much weight is safe to put in the cab verse the trailer, as in what percentage of weight should go into my cab
I hope rv and trailer industry developing the towing hitch for a quick release if they subjected to a certain torsion force that represents Trailer rolling ,,, it could save the passengers life
Didn’t even think about the electric break control button from the purpose of that the passenger can use it, But funny enough in my Hilux the redarc button looked good dead centre in the dash ,, Yep that’s why I did it like that!!
A great video indeed. There is no substitute for understanding what is going on and not driving like can idiot thinking I can drive like it's just a car. I try to transfer load from the van to the ute and of course keep weight off the back of the van to reduce the pendulum effect. I have a 2019 Triton it has trailer sway control and also can use AWD on the bitumen. I fitted Dexter Sway control to the van, it can apply either both brakes or left or right if it detects sway, the great thing is it can deploy the brakes before I could ever hit the reward button. I have only felt it deployed once, driving on a a flat straight road at 90ks. and we got hit by a very strong cross wind, I could feel the van pull up. It could be the difference between driving and surviving or being involved in an horrific head on with a another vehicle
To be fair, the driver was being careful but the trailer was prone to sway, and the driver didn't know what to do in order to combat the sway. Dexter TSC is great, I have another video on that!
@@L2SFBC I'm not bring critical of them, but the truly sad thing is anybody if just a car licence can buy a ute etc and hook up 3 ton of van and get into trouble. I think mandatory accreditation would stop the heartbreak and tragedies or at least a dramatic reduction.
Your point around stupidity vs ignorance is fair, but if someone is ignorant about anything road-related, there should be rules where they must learn what to do, before trying the real thing. I don't believe ignorance is a valid excuse. It isn't for guns and it shouldn't be for vehicles. They are big, fast and heavy - a dangerous combination in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing. To the drivers involved in this crash, I applaud you for allowing yourselves to be faced with us youtuber's comments and opinions.
I see your point and broadly agree with the principle, but the difference with guns and sports like say flying or scuba diving is that there is mandatory training. With towing, there is no training, and what training and information there is tends to be variable. So, if an activity is dangerous, there should be some mandatory training so people are equipped to deal with it. This comes back into the towing licence discussion - l2sfbc.com/why-australia-should-have-a-national-towing-license/
There is, just pick up one of these. However, note that mere towball mass does not always make for a stable trailer. www.couplemate.com.au/towing-parts/weigh-safe-scales/towball-scale/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwxdSHBhCdARIsAG6zhlUqLoBeS-6B5BC6kLlfMDUzZr9soAuYgJshNtD3qslFpc9wR41a4r8aAh6_EALw_wcB
Very lucky to be able to tell their story...unfortunately not the first and definitely won't be the last...a lack of basic knowledge not only in towing but also in driving a motor vehicle...hopefully a lesson learnt.
@@L2SFBC Yes I agree with you. It is not intuitive at all. Also you have to educate yourself on all the variables and metrics you need to be aware of. As the woman in the video stated she has driven for decades just not towed so put yourself in her shoes. She has enough experience to know her risks have gone up but not the right experience/advice to know she had additional self training to do before towing. I'd say that is true for a great many drivers.
Towball mass is likely the issue. I too have towed many things over 50 years and lightening off that towball with watertanks, spare tyres on back, lots of foodstuff under bedbehind axle is all it takes to go from a good heavy towball mass to an unstable 60 to 100kgs less, that's all it takes. Towball mass on heavy side is generally OK but go light and its curtains. Your video should be right on this as the huge variable that 'people' get wrong so often.
Not just towball mass. I really want to get away from the view that sway = increase TBM. It's an important factor, but not the only one. I'll produce another video covering it and about 20 other ways to reduce sway.
@@L2SFBC OMG Robert, your comment ....sway=increase in TBM... not what I said at all. It's the freekin opposite. ...sway=DECREASE in TBM.... what I am getting at here from observations and educating others whilst travelling Oz pretty well fulltime I see Dummies piling in the wine under the rear bed, big boxes of crap on the rear of van, front watertank empty 'because they supposedly get better economy(Doh)' And don't get me started with dual axle vans with very light loads on the towball. The loading factor is HUGE and if this one issue is solved I'm sure much of the "wobbles" would be eradicated and educators such as you just gave out one piece of advice it should be "TBM should be 10% of van mass when loaded". Don't confuse caravanners with a twenty things video but do the tbm right is critical.
Well kind of. You can get to the right TBM if you have heavy weights at front and rear of van far from axles. Which is awful. And my van tows we at 6%.
Too much speed is often a major cause of accidents. Recently had crazy caravan drivers overtaking on the Birdsville Track at over 80kmh and more! It wasn't safe travelling in a 4wd without a van at 60kmh...!
Poor distribution of the caravan load, is one of the prime reasons for "trailer"sway, but barely rated a mention in your video. The van in question had 3 water tanks, 2 of which were behind the axle, always fill the front tank first, and only fill tanks behind the axle if the front tank is already ull. Correct loading of the van should have featured far more prominently in the lessons to be learned from this crash. An Electronic Stability Control system fitted to the caravan would most likely have avoided this crash, and should have been included in the possible solutions. I have not used the term accident above, because this was not an accident, but merely a crash waiting to happen, hopefully the courses the couple will undertake before they hit the road again, will prompt them to do things differently.
I have the same van and towed it with different tank setups. No sway. There will be another video about sway setups and include much more on weight distribution. You're right to highlight it. You can't make a blanket rule about which tank to fill when as much depends on the other weights and the size of the tanks. Too much ball weight can be a problem too. My full video on electronic sway systems is here -> ruclips.net/video/ie_szIujKYI/видео.html
It's not known what the base cause of sway was. The trailer was pretty well stock, not overloaded. The Pajero was capable of towing it. So possibly low tyre pressures, misalignment...could be many factors so I didn't speculate without evidence. A follow-up video will cover all the many ways to prevent sway without being specific to a rig. However, what would have trigged the final sway was definitely the acceleration downhill, but there must have been some underlying issue as it should have been fine to accelerate down that little hill starting at 80km/h. It's a shame there's no crash investigation unit to figure out exactly what went wrong and why.
I agree with your points @Irene and Bob Murray and have said the same elsewhere. I have a “little bit of experience” - have been towing heavy vans and boats for 50 years. Two spare wheels? Just NOT necessary unless you’re going seriously off road. A TPMS on the other hand should be compulsory, will usually save you before the tyre gets damaged from running under inflated. Sway control: a TOTAL no brainer on all but very small trailers. Water tanks: often typically now two potable tanks forward, and a grey water behind the axle. That’s crazy, causing a MASSIVE difference in ball weight, and stability between full potable tanks/empty grey water vs empty potable/full grey water. You end up with a Jeckle and Hyde van, stable one trip then lethal on the next.
Interesting comment at 7:027:31 from Andrea early in the interview. Andrea stated that when he picked up the hybrid from the dealer noticed wobble. Obviously the van would have been empty so why would there be sway if the vehicle is rated to 2500kgs tow capacity. Something is not right here.
Thank you Robert for your wise advice. I am grateful for the respect you showed me with regard to my lack of towing experience. I hope this video helps others as you intend. Keep producing your excellent videos. They are invaluable !
You are very welcome
Andrea, thanks for your honest feedback from such an unfortunate incident. It reminds all of us that we are only ever about 4 seconds from potential disaster.
In my case, my wife doesn't hold a license and wouldn't know a brake pedal from a differential!!! So, it is up to me to do 100% of the driving. Just between you and me, I'm happier that way...I've seen the way she operates a vacuum cleaner and let's just say: It ain't pretty!!! hahaha
Robert suggested to his viewers that both partners should practice towing regularly. I can only endorse those sentiments and hope you can build your own confidence in the short term and be in a position to again share the driving.
All the very best to you both for many happy future travels.
Thanks Bill for that, appreciate the respect shown.
@@billroach2393 I agree Bill, and I very strongly beg to differ when people insist on sharing the driving if one driver is inexperienced.
(I know couples where the wife does all the driving, which is great, and I’m not being “sexist”.)
My wife is actually a great driver, but has never towed even a box trailer. Suddenly forcing her to drive with a 3tonne van on the back would be crazy, and right out of her comfort zone.
On the other hand I have 50 years experience towing heavy caravans and boats, with zero accidents.
Worst case: we leave the van somewhere and get it trucked home, (my wife can happily drive with no van), or get one of our sons to tow it home. That’s why we have RACQ ultimate.
I believe this “share the driving thing” is often a flawed argument.
Sharing the driving doesn't work for everyone, but it seems that more couples could, and should share the drive for safety reasons. And why would it need to be sudden? Get training, start easy...how did you learn, did you suddenly go straight to a 3t trailer?
Robert I'm a 65 year old man retired from 31 years semi truck driver and have owned and pulled camper trailers and all ways used anti sway wieght distributors and still am very careful and worry on interstate hiways and still with all my experience am learning things from you thank you sir
Thank you Loyd!
Not sway bars, weight distribution hitch, not all vans need them, I've seen those weight hitches bend steel, load the van correctly
I have towed for many years and now tow a 2.6 tonne caravan. My observations are 1. Most people do not understand the various tow limits for their vehicles and end up being overladen. 2. Most people underestimate how heavy all the stuff is they put in their car and caravan. Do they really need a second beer fridge, generator etc etc. 3. People drive too fast when towing - I sit on 92 on cruise and sits comfortably. Take off cruise downhill and uphill and take it easy. Glad to see this couple survived this crash
Smart lady, very impressive, thanks for being honest. Good luck in the future
Thank you!
Great video! Thank you for posting and thank you to Andrea and Trevor for sharing their story.
Great video as usual. I experienced trailer sway many years ago and survived it. One of the scariest things in my life. Realising you are about to lose control of a car at high speed is something you never forget. Any information to make travel safer greatly appreciated. Thanks Mr Pepper.
You're most welcome :-)
@@L2SFBC Well done Robert - I've been enjoying the practicality of your videos and even shared them with others. I have friends who are really stuck on manufacturer tow ratings and can't understand why they are white-knuckled most of the time when towing. The abc's and xyz's presented in your towing videos are excellent. I hope more people subscribe and become educated. Here in Canada there is no requirement for driver training to tow even very large trailers. Seems it's the same in Australia. I also notice the laws of physics are the same. :) Keep up the good work.
Towing is indeed a very complicated science to master. This video is well timed and very helpful. Thanks. 👍
Yes, so let's stop pretending it is "stupidity" when people can't tow. It's lack of knowledge, not the same thing at all.
Phew. Great video. I am doing my research before I buy tow vehicle and caravan. This is very sobering. Some great lessons here. Proper caravan brake controllers are so critical.
There were some interesting points made through this video.
I'm certainly an advocate of Towing certification or even a Towing licence. Interesting Amanda was feeling anxious and aware of having so many other road users following behind them at the lower speed.
I have no issue people driving slower to their personal conditions however pull over and allow other users to pass safely when possible.
Consideration of other road users is equally important for safety. The people behind you could also feel anxious, impatience and potentially push them to do stupid things like unsafe passing, road rage etc.
Simple towing road etiquette is worth learning to compliment any towing courses.
Well done Trevor and Amanda for telling your experience. Safe future travels.
Excellent points!!! Yes, SO much to cover.
And yet, so many people argue that you should “Do the speed limit!”
It’s NOT a recommended speed, it’s a LIMIT, very big difference.
@@FutureSystem738 A very good point, one that lots of lingual truck drivers unfortunately do not recognise. More overtaking lanes on our highways would help relieve the angst.
@@FutureSystem738 The above should read linehaul, not lingual.
@@stuartthorn696 Yes, agreed.
The worst case I ever had was a few years ago heading North on the Bruce Highway in late August. It was a day of EXTREME Westerlies, so extreme that I would not have been on the road with a caravan given a choice- but we had a long way to go and a family wedding to attend. I eventually settled at mostly around 80-85 kmh on most sections.
Anyway our very stable caravan was being blown all over the place, just like other vans (and even many trucks) - yet the abuse on the UHF from some truckies was unbelievable. There was one in particular who kept swearing about caravans and I said to him words to the effect of: “If one of these caravans, (or a truck), loses control, the delays you’re experiencing will blow out from a few minutes to many hours.”
It didn’t stop his swearing at all. I’m sure he’d describe himself as a “professional driver”- when in fact he’s really a disgrace who shouldn’t have a licence.
Thank you. Very informative, and thank you to Andrea and Trevor for their honesty. All the very best to you all
Thank you John
Thank you for sharing your experience, well done to you
Thank you!
Safe towing is a refined skill. Thanks for explaining things so concisely.
Glad you think so Russell! Please share :-)
@@L2SFBC Certainly. Happy to do so.
That accident looked awful! I am so thankful those two people are here to speak to us about their experience. There's a lot to be said for having a heavy and powerful tow vehicle. My original purchase had a braked rate of 2500 and I thought that would be appropriate for my van that was rated also to 2500. Taking the whole set up to the weighing experts showed me how wrong I was. Though I'd only had the car for a couple months I knew my safety was far more important than the hassle of changing cars. I hope Andrea feels better/more confident after her course and keeps up her skills - just in case they're needed.
nailed it again, good job. All "professional" installers should know to put the button/controller in the centre if at all practical. I forgot to specify when I had/let the dealer organise the install and the location is terrible, down low near the driver's knee (at the door). Previously when I installed it my self on the last car, I put it in the centre for obvious reasons.
Same happened to me. Assumed they would know.
Same near my right knee. I forgot to tell them. I've memorized where it is so I can get to it fast without looking although I realize that I'm going to need 2 hands on the wheel.
I think the biggest problem of all with towing vans in Australia is the propensity to overload the tow vehicle with too big a van. The manufacturers don't help either - specifying a maximum towing capacity that is way higher than the weight of the vehicle is criminal, as in say a Triton that weighs 2000kg can tow 3100kg. My solution is to limit towing capacity to 70% of tow vehicle weight for "domestic" rigs which are mostly driven by untrained drivers. This would mean said Triton can only tow 1400kg van.
That's a good idea Ein, but unfortunately the caravan market just isn't set up that way in Australia. Appears to be zero concern about weight of van or dynamics.
That should be mandatory rules. Also like In The video it showed a Pajero flipping after a overtaking manuvre . That's pretty fast going why such a hurry. They are on holidays. Drive easy and stick to a road comfortable speed and under the limit. Every one is in such a hurry these days !! :)
Glad Andrea was going slowly at 80 or so. Good thinking.
That’s a great idea we’ll said.
The specs given by manufacturers are what you might load up to go round the corner to the horse paddock or boat ramp if you have to. But many people are blissfully unaware of this. Anytime the trailer mass is greater than the tow tug mass is a time for greater anxiety. At least it is for me. It's just physics. I'd like to see more of those large US pick up trucks on the road rather than the standard holiday rig. Safer for everyone.
@@DavesShed Yep, I chatted with a fellow caravanner who had towed for many years with all sorts of tow vehicles from 79 series to D-Max and the like. His new rig was a chevy suburban ute - a giant thing! He was using far less fuel than ever before towing the biggest van he had ever had, with zero stability issues even down steep roads in the wet.
Fantastic video Robert. I love your work and find each of your videos very informative. Thankyou!
Glad you like them! Please share :-)
Robert, you run an awsome channel
- really topnotch content
- very professional delivery and communication
Thanks John, would appreciate some shares :-)
Wow! What an eye-opening video. I'm glad you are both okay, and I've learned a lot from this. Thank you for sharing and I hope you are feeling more confident.
Thank you so much!
Good video Robert, very informative
Glad it was helpful!
Another spot on, relevant and factual presentation Robert. Class presenter!
Thank you, please share :-)
Shared with pleasure Robert. It will save lives.
As an expansion to point 1, practicing towing the trailer prior to the first holiday. Ensuring the weights are similar to the planned holiday. With testing and practice, drivers can learn the effective settings for the electronic brakes in ideal conditions and learn which settings are totally ineffective at slowing the trailer.
Loading up weight in the tow vehicle but not exceeding GVM, is another key way to assist with additional stability. Especially if the tow vehicle is not that heavy, the bare minimum should be in the trailer/caravan.
Excellent points!
Excellent video and good on them both for being so frank and upfront of their lack of knowledge in what’s involved in towing and the setting up procedures required for safer towing. They are both very lucky to have survived that accident with no serious injuries.
My father drove “all sorts of trucks” for a living and he was very knowledgeable in the art of towing. He told me that driving a semi-trailer with very heavy loads is completely different to driving a car/4WD and towing heavy weights.
He taught me how to drive and also how to tow. His best piece of advice was, weight distribution is extremely important and tow ball weight as well. Obviously there are many more aspects to the art of safe towing etc, etc.
The one thing he always hammered home to me was, the old saying of...”The tail wagging the dog.” That being of course, the tow vehicle (semi-trailers excluded) should be heavier than the weight of whatever you are towing. If this was to become law, there would definitely be less instances of trailer sway accidents and towing accidents in general.
Thank you, and agreed on all fronts. This video shows weight distribution importance -> ruclips.net/video/JeEEC5eVNCk/видео.html and this post deals with the common myth about semis and caravans l2sfbc.com/why-a-prime-mover-isnt-the-same-as-a-towcar-and-caravan/
@@L2SFBC Thanks for providing these links, l will most definitely view them.
Keep up the good work. I have already learned much from watching your excellent videos. Thanks again. 😊👍👍
It used to be the law in some states, I don’t know how or why it was changed. A consequence was that you could no longer tow a loaded double horse-float with say a Holden Kingswood. Davox.
I left Brisbane with our new van and it was very loosy goosy.It was really quite scary.Got to the sunshine coast and filled both water tanks steady as a rock after that both tanks are forward of the axle.also turned the brakes up a bit on the trailer and just gave them a little touch going down hill made a big difference.was able to sit on 100kmh no problem.
Very good video with accurate info. It must be mandatory for all towers to undertake a course and have an up graded licence. Heavy vehicle must upgrade and complete a course over 4.5t gvm, but towers can tow up to 9.5t (?) gcm unassisted. I tow with a Pajero and Mitsubishi recommend fitting a weight distribution hitch when towing heavy loads ie whenever the attitude of the vehicles is changed. Kudos to this couple for speaking out publicly.
Thanks Tony, please share!
Thank you! Very useful video.
Glad to hear that!
Thanks. Well presented all round.
Glad it was helpful! Please share :-)
This is AWESOME! They dont teach you this when your learning how to drive! Good stuff! Im getting ready to tow 800 miles round trip only two days away! I will be double checking ALL my gear!
Thank you, I'm so glad it helped - please share :-)
A good simple to follow video, I am very happy with my 5th wheeler and have had to avoid swaying caravans on our travels around Australia. Sadly seen several in the position of Andrea's.
I am glad they are Ok.
Regards Steve.
Thanks Steve
I think towing caravans is more vulnerable than driving articulated trucks not to be underestimated big responsibility
I bought a brand new 17 ft caravan in 2017. Towed it with a Pajero Sport. Even with an anti sway hitch had sway issues on a few occasions. Got advice regarding loading from an expert all good there. Decided to sell the caravan as my wife was having anxiety issues. Happy wife happy life now.
What advice did you get?
All this could be avoided overnight if you had "Differential Stability" It is proactive and needs no action by the driver to keep the caravan stable - In the time I had it installed (7 years and 25,000 miles) only one instance in thousands of miles - in the south of France I was cruising along a country road a 50 mph when a sign appeared warning of an "uneven road" in French - by the time we figured what it was we hit a bump in the road that threw the front of the car across the road and then the rear end made it kick the back with the caravan attached and then the van hit the bump that lifted the wheels off the road. All hell broke lose and we held our breath. In seconds the combination (With two electric bike strapped to the back of the caravan) settled down by simply doing nothing but keep it straight and caravan system followed suit - happy days.
Great video. We tow our caravan with a 2010 Pajero, like most 4 WD’s they are not designed to tow heavy loads and are mainly touring vehicles. We did some basic modifications to the Pajero suspension and tyres with stiffer walls which improved its towing ability and also put the same types on the van. Like others have said ESC is a plus for safety for the van, a few times it saved us because of the unevenness of some of the roads we travelled.
ESC for the van is great - all explained here -> ruclips.net/video/ie_szIujKYI/видео.html
My first time experiencing trailer sway I was 16 years old and when I got to the farm for work that morning I was told that the hay wagon was loaded and promised delivery a half hour before I was even supposed to clock in and they were impatient wondering where their hay was. I hooked up and took off to try and keep everyone happy. The trailer ended up in each sides wheels 3 times before I was able to get it back settled down. It was more luck than anything else that I didn't roll.
It doesn't matter how upset someone else gets. It's your responsibility as the driver to make sure the load is correct. TAKE YOUR TIME regardless to verify things.
That's a great story, thank you!!!
Good video and description. Hope people take on your points.
Thanks, please share :-)
Thanks for sharing your experience
Thanks...please share the video 👍
Thanks Robert.....and thanks to your guests as well.
Without wanting to sound like a keyboard warrior, I must comment on the set-up of that MDC van....those 2 big, HEAVY spare tyres hanging off the back is such a glaring issue for me. It may not have been a contributing factor...but it wouldn't have done the dynamics of the rig any favours either.
For what it's worth, I agree wholeheartedly with your assertions, but I would go one giant step further... I wouldn't EVER consider towing a trailer that was any heavier than about 75% of the fully laden weight of the tow vehicle.
It is for that reason that I tow my 3,500kg (ATM) Bushtracker caravan with a Chev Silverado which has a GVM of almost 5,200kg (and is usually fairly close to 5 tonne when traveling).
These rigs that are right on the edge of their (legal) capabilities have no wiggle room when the excrement hits the fan.
Yes, I'm no fan of the twin spares on the back and on my own van have now dropped one. Same for the tanks. That'll be covered in more detail later. Yes, I'm a huge fan of the American utes for towing; long wheelbase, short overhang, heavy, lots of power, often towing mirrors, exhaust brakes...made to tow!!!
@@L2SFBC you are quite correct about the inherent safety of using a large "yank tank" for towing.
One thing I will say though...as you may be aware these trucks come with factory-integrated electric trailer brakes (in addition to exhaust brakes and "Tow/Haul" mode that increases drivability when towing too). However, with my particular model (2012 Silverado Heavy Duty), I found that having the electric brake control being mounted down under the dash near my right knee area, was simply impractical to use in an emergency. It was also difficult to make minute adjustments to the sensitivity settings on-the-fly.
So, I disconnected the factory electric brakes and fitted Redarc Tow Pro Elite V3 which is mounted higher on the central portion of the dash, beside the stereo system. It is MUCH better suited to making fine adjustments and also to being able to press it in case of emergency.
Hmm that is a good point, agree, will add this to future advice, thanks!
Agree, the 2 spares add a lot of weight just where you don't want it- at the furthest point behind the van axle. Not just that, many hybrid vans also have 3 heavy AGM batteries behind the axle, and high sidewall tyres that become very squirmy when not fully inflated.
Thank you this is educational
I never never use cruise control
Thank you to Andrea and Trevor far sharing their experience, and to you Robert for making the video.
Our pleasure Rob, please share :-)
Good video. My dad drilled into me " The tow vehicle has to weigh more than what you are towing".
You could have said more about loading the van properly as well as adjusting the tow bar hitch for correct height. Also a bit harsh on Mitsubishi considering the age difference.
A credit to the couple having the courage to talk about it and intending to step into the ring again. Cheers.
There will be another video on sway prevention, and yes I was careful to mention the relative age of the vehicles. Although t it wouldn't change much if you looked at 2021 versions.
Great video.
Thanks for the visit
Great information again thanks Robert 👍🚙
Thanks please share 👍
THANK YOU SHARE DETAIL VIDEO
You are welcome
Thankyou
Robert, another point viewers need to know. That caravan's ATM exceeds the Pajero's towing max. They may have been towing it under its ATM but its not advisable to tow a trailer with an ATM equal or more than the tugs nominated weight for it.
These poor folk have been sold a caravan unsuitable for the tug.
Yes good point.
Thanks Robert for the explanation of this particular situation. I have experienced slight trailer sway going down hill with a prime mover passing. Fortunately our new van and Prado both have sway control. Have since found out from doing a towing course with my wife we need more weight on the tow ball. I have since purchased a tow ball scale and will start experimenting with filling water tanks to increase the ball weight. I’m on a steep learning curve and I don’t want to be a statistic.
Always wary of advice to simply increase towball mass and not consider anything else. Lots of other things may be a problem too. Watch for a video on this in future, I'm making a long list of things to do, some easy, some not. And "just add mass" is NOT a solution every time!
See John Cadogan's explanation of the Bernoulli Effect...
The high slab sides of a truck/trailer unit combined with the effect of the slab-sided travel trailer passing each other creates a vortex of rushing air between the two vehicles.
Trucks being bigger and heavier come out OK...
Caravans instantly sway when leaving the area of influence re the sides of the truck, and crash unless the driver of the travel trailer/toy hauler/caravan towing vehicle can instantly hit the brake controller button.....
The debate goes on and on - slow down, put weight here or there, check your tyres, don't brake , accelerate etc etc - It is all nonsense and can be solved by simply fitting a control system with the correct proactive, easy to fit and low cost system.
But whilst the industry just turns a blind eye for one reason or another the carnage will continue.
Should have interviewed him since he's telling her what to say the whole time.
I believe the only two significant factors relating to trailer sway are speed and weight distribution. The only way to correct a sway situation is to brake the TRAILER heavily so as to pull the combination into a straight line. That requires a quick response via the hand operated trailer brake control.
Drivers of vehicles towing heavy trailers appear to be more conscious of keeping up with the traffic flow than the laws of physics. That big heavy trailer will quickly oversteer your tow vehicle if you do not allow for the unexpected.
Just read your comment and agree entirely, born and bread on a farm I started towing from the age of 10. My father always instilled in me about load distribution and from listening from the start of the couples situation they had issues with the van sway even before the crash to me it sounds like there was a problem with the loading or incorrect tyre pressure. I believe that there should of been a far more instruction on towing before she got behind the wheel this is no place to learn behind the wheel, at no time did I hear the husband say to hit the brake controller button if it starts to sway badly. The other thing is I personally never use Cruise Control as this video shows seconds count in these situations.
No matter how careful you are it does happen. Bloody scary.
It happened to me many times towing other people's caravans as a tow truck driver over 30 years and now for myself.
That's when I realised why people were paying me to tow their caravan and boat to to their destination, pre electronic brakes. LOL
Glad to see you made it out ok.
Cheers
🇭🇲👍😄🍻🍻
I know the couple would agree with this now. If you have any trailer sway, there is something wrong with your setup. Robert you completely right, your car trailer combo should have no trailer sway at all up to the speed limit or even slightly over. I'm sure if they got there car trailer setup checked out by a professional and told how to stop trailer sway if it does happen, this accident wouldn't have happen.
It does worry me now that she says i will not be any driving, I will leave that to hubby, now this can cause an accident, being tired when towing can be a killer as well, need to share the driving.
wow!
- really good advice / design risk management on the placement of the electric brake controller, not something that would have got on my radar
- thankyou
- Perhaps redarc and other manufacturers could up their game and make mention of this in thwir installation manual
I continue my efforts to get the industry to care about safety and education...
The one thing that was not addressed and would have been good to know is what was the TBW I have found a lot of crashes have been caused by not having enough weight on the tow ball hence not proper distribution of weight in the trailer.
Will do a more detailed video on sway prevention including that point. The exact TBM was not known.
this is why that happened no weight on ball
EXACTLY
I disagree. I own the same model and towed it stock standard. No sway.
It is far too simplistic a view to always focus only on TBM for any sway situation. It is important but just one of many factors.
I practice getting my thumb on the Redarc button occasionally while I’m on a towing run. I’ll sit on 90 and if the wind is bad or I don’t feel everything’s smooth I’ll sit on 80. I’ve been in a similar situation as these guys as a passenger, I was just nodding off too and nothing wakes you up like a trailer death wobble. We were just north of 3ways in the territory.
On our recent holiday felt something wrong at below our normal cruising speed. Two things, very strong cross winds hence the slower speed, combined with very grooved sealed road from heavy usage, Looked in mirror and van was swaying my action was to take foot off. Obviously car and van have different wheel track and were fighting over the who owned the grooves. I have been towing vans for over 50 years and that was a first. No one ever mentions road surface .
An excellent point thank you!
Towing with half filled water tanks is a problem, with the weight of the water at 1kg a liter , the water sloshing. Around will effect the stability of the trailer. One either travels with full tanks or empty tanks.
I see your point but I would like vans designed such that they can be towed with any combination of tank fill.
Robert, deftly handled video. I rarely tow, but it's good to be aware. Wife won't let me drag home any more "project" cars. We share the driving on any longer trips.
Sharing is caring!
I have over 40 yrs of towing and currently tow a 3.2T /25 ft van using a 100 series landcruiser for towing. My experience is to never use cruise control to tow because as soon as something happens like sway the cruise control will immediately try to accelerate the vehicle and make the problem worse. My experience to control a sway issue - it needs the van manual brake applied progressively together with slowing the vehicle. Speed and inexperience seems to lead to problems with new vanners who think they can tow just great at any speed ! Heavy application of the vehicle brakes will just enhance the sway issue. Van loading is important for correct ball weight, vehicle loading / balance. I use vehicle air bags, H.R. levellers together with a H.R. sway device that works well with the levellers and a McHitch 360 deg. coupling. Also every now and then watch the van tail in the rear view mirrors especially if you detect any unusual movement as this can help to pre-empt a problem (tyre pressure). Finally a coupling weighing device to check all is good does confirm all is set up correctly and they are not expensive. Happy vaning 😂 G.H.
great video thank you. I wonder if the driver has anti-sway system installed in their car and activated when accident happened???????
No they did not
As I’m not Australian I’m not sure the braking rules for trailers up to 3500kg but in NZ, and Europe, we can use the English Alko, not sure if other companies make them, system which is non electric and no controls in the cab. There’s no lag in the brakes activating like the common piston type but obviously the tow vehicle brakes have to be used. From personal experience they work very well recovering from a sway situation with a 3500kg trailer behind a Ranger.
Interesting to know - got a link to them? So it's not an overrun brake then?
If you have an older tow vehicle, you can purchase a plug and play (no rewiring needed) is to install a Hayes Electronic Sway Control.
Re weight distribution in the trailer, I notice that this van claims 2170kg Tare but only 140kg on the towball - I would have thought this wasn't enough as we seem to be recommending 10% of the total van weight on the ball in Aus for single axle trailers.
The 10% is a figure that's too fixated on. I own the same one and it towed just fine from the factory, and when I've loaded it. Mine is at 160kg TBM, well below 10% and I have no intention of increasing it to 10%. It weighs around 2300kg loaded, so well short of 230kg which would be 10%.
I think the biggest highlight here is inexperience. The problem is, how do you get that experience? Well obviously doing a course and being tested to tow is a good start. I’ve been towing for years and still learning. I regularly tow heavy boats and what I’m taking away from this video and others is other than the setup, speed is intrinsic to safety. Ive also found that you must have both hands on the wheel at all times and be ready to use those trailer brakes. Thanks guys
Agreed!!! Thanks
just a couple of points the pajero is about 2230kg then add the bull bar then it is about 3000kg I had one the trailer stability control is only on the VX and Kaka doo variants so you also need to consider in the case the greatly reduced pay load of the prado as this will very likely reduce the ability to tow the same van. So while I understand the discussion you are putting forward there are some important aspects that should have been included.
I think it should also be pointed out that a Pajero uses monocoque construction but the Prado on the other hand is designed around a full ladder chassis, this is a very important point when choosing a tow vehicle.
Regarding stability issues I think people should be aware that if their setup is well designed, loaded correctly (not loading too much to the rear of the van) and a sensible choice between tow vehicle and caravan size is chosen their rig should be rock solid in most circumstances.
I have towed a van all around Australia and never have I encountered the tail wagging the dog syndrome.
No the chassis design makes no difference. The Pajero chassis is plenty stiff enough.
@@L2SFBC Not just stiffness or strength a conventional chassis is heavy with a very low centre of gravity.
I have a tow vehicle which has stability control but I also have stability control fitted to the caravan and it has definitely saved me from rolling. I was traveling along a highway when two pushbikes fell off the car in front of me. I quickly check the mirror and pulled on the steering wheel. I then suddenly remembered about the caravan attach to the back of my vehicle. I didn't have 3 or 4 seconds for the car stability system to bring it under control. From the first second I was in serious trouble and likely to roll on the first sway. I looked in the mirror again and smoke was coming from the caravan tyres as the caravan stability control pulled the caravan straight behind my 4wd. The stability system was working before I had even realized that I was in trouble. I even got a discount when I first took out my caravan insurance because I had the system fitted. They weren’t interested in the fact that it was also on the tow vehicle. I am sure it could help on the car but there is nothing like applying the brakes on the caravan.
Thanks! Really useful to have real world experiences!
Robert, excellent video and thanks to the folks who had this accident. There is one think I do not understand: did. the new van had not an anti sway system fitted from ex works? Or did it not functioned ?????
Cheers
Did not have anything. Thank for for the compliments, please share 👍
Not sure how the Pajero and Prado compare, but something else to consider is the distance between the rear axle line and the towball. The further it is, the more control the van has over the car, the shorter it is, the more control the car has over the van.
That's why so many dual cab utes have poor towing characteristics, and indeed chassis failures.
I measured that on a Ranger and Everest and surprisingly, the Everest was a fraction longer!!! But often with utes there's extended hitches fitted and THAT is definitely a problem!
Very good video thanks Robert. Do you think inertia brake controller settings do not help in this situation compared to instant (what ever the dial is on) normal setting. That way putting the foot on the brake however little gives more instant braking
Yes definitely, but for sway control, that requires the towcar to slow down. To control sway you need to get the trailer speed below the towcar, so this is why braking the trailer alone is ideal.
I have never had caravan sway using correct weight distribution and ride leveler sway bars. Up to 110kph.Yes there are other factors.
I didn’t see anything in the video mentioned about weight distribution spring bar with friction sway control which is extremely helpful in reducing the tendency of sway getting out of control. I have had the spring bar with friction sway control since day one. I would not tow without one.
I never use cruise control while towing .
No ESC fitted to the van?
No ESC
Fit Tyre pressure monitoring to your trailer.
In this particular case, I believe the main reason is that the lady pressed the brake that made the vehicle slow down but the trailer didn’t which caused the sway becoming even more severe. If the brake controller was used to slow down the trailer, the crash might have been avoided.
Yes
Yep total respect too ya’s all many thanks 🙏
We should have a licence endorsement for this precise reason. Loads and lashing, weight distribution, etc are taught and examined when you progress into the "heavy vehicle" licence classes.
I concede this will never happen in our great commonwealth of conflicting states.
Correct 2008 Pajero weight is 2310kg - 2017 prado is 2330kg prado is only 20 kg heavier . Also the second she touched the brakes the cruise control would have cancelled automatically.
No, the 2008 model is lighter than 2310kg. Later models got a bit heavier. Yes, the brakes would have cancelled the cruise but by then it was too late - the point was that the vehicle acclerated beyond a speed the driver wanted because she didn't know cruise didn't retard downhill.
I used to race in the mid 90's and on the way back from a race I ran into a SEVERE trailer sway. Thank God that there was a slight curve in the road that helped me regain control.
Reason for the trailer swaying : my load was wrong, my race car was crashed and we loaded it backwards on the trailer. That means the engine was at the back of the trailer and on a double axle trailer that is detrimental. I wasn't going too fast either 95km/h. I was in convoy with other participants and all of were a bit shook by the incident. We dropped the speed and drove the last 200 km home doing 80 km/h.
The trailer had a brake unit that worked off of the tow hitch, but those are dodgy at best.
I learned my lesson very quickly and now all ways bias the weight to the front of the trailer. That keeps the arse of the tow vehicle down, reducing the tendency to sway.
Yes, overrun brakes are terrible..I much, much prefer independently operated brakes for onroad and offroad.
@@L2SFBC What is an overrun brake?
2 things that standout straight away is the very close to capacity towing weights, for example an older car isn't going to perform the same as it's out of the showroom. Brakes won't be the same, suspension, wear an tare on the car etc. Also using cruise control, you absolutely never use cruise control during towing, it's written in every owners manual as per manufacturers specifications, especially with adaptive cruise control that will activate braking systems very aggressively.
Cruise with towing isn't prohibited. Why would you say otherwise? Some modern electronic systems are tow-aware.
Hi Robert
As an engineer it's very important that when towing with adaptive cruise control and setting distances between you and the car in front (when towing this would mean that people would set further distances) a car over takes and gets within the distance set, this would cause your car to apply rapid braking thinking the car in front is under rapid braking. Thus potentially causing the load to shift and unsettling the load, if you then continue on, this can cause exactly what has happened here and in your experiments. Therefore is not recommended in towing conditions.
I see your point, and will disagree:
- if rapid braking needs to be done, it needs to be done. Adaptive cruise only brakes harshly when needed, and a human would need to do the same.
- modern systems with modern brake controllers will apply the trailer brakes during active cruise.
I agree cruise can lead to dangerous situastions, but in itself is not inherently dangerous.
Hi Robert
You're very much entitled to your opinion but not your own facts.
WARNING: Do not use adaptive cruise control on winding roads, in heavy traffic or when the road surface is slippery. ... WARNING: Do not use adaptive cruise control when towing a trailer that has trailer brakes. The auto-brake component of the adaptive cruise control system does not operate the trailer brakes.
The first part is not specific to towing. For the second look at advanced brake controller such as the ToWPro Elite which operates through trailer brakes under Adaptive cruise. The instructions say to take the trigger from the brake light not pedal operation.
U could on a hwy set brake controller to a higher position so if u press car brake the van will pull up first stop sway , but in towns an city turn it back to normal, first reaction when van sways is to hit brake pedal easier i recon
@Irene and Bob Murray
That was pretty much what I was going to say.
We just picked up our van from Qld and towed it back home to Sydney, overtaking trucks etc, and no dramas. Van towed perfectly, and had the added piece of mind with the ESC that was fitted as part of the build specs.....
Glad they walked away, and will learn from the experience.
My full video on electronic sway systems is here -> ruclips.net/video/ie_szIujKYI/видео.html
Re the cruise control comment & electric brake adjustment in the cab, I found u can use the cruise control but make sure the bias is towards the trailer (so trailer does the work). Our tow car doesn’t speed up over the setting even on big hills, and when it’s retarding speed the brake lights come on triggering the trailer brakes. The car’s computer doesn’t care what is doing the actual braking, just that it’s braking. I’ve had scenarios where bias is towards the car and on larger hills the cruise control gets overpowered & won’t slow enough. If I don’t intervene the car would’ve sped up. Also engine braking is fine but I’ve found engine braking alone won’t slow it down enough on big hills. There really should be more courses around and affordable so we all don’t have to learn these things ourselves when supposed to be on holidays. Also agree if you aren’t comfortable doing 100km/h on straight flat bits then something is seriously wrong with you or your setup. We shouldn’t be holding up traffic on single lane roads. Thanks so much for putting these videos together, it’s made the world of difference to me when towing. When someone has told me I’m doing something wrong I can always set them straight by referring them to your work.
ooh and the partially filled water tank would have got a real sway going due to the Free Surface Effect with happens when water sloshes back and forth or side to side.
This is a great example of why anybody wanting to tow anything should have to demonstrate an ability to do so safely and get a permit to go along with there license to see van parks after van parks putting in drive thru sites so people are not disturbed for hours whilst attempting to back into a sight
Hi, I have just bought an Outlaw HTO 14Feet. I am very new in towing caravans and I wonder do you have any recommendations for anti-sway systems in this model? I did asked the seller if he ever has anti sway system on this van and he said no, no need as the front A chassis is very short anyway. But for me I am new and he is an very experienced caravan driver already so I am thinking best to ask for your help. I saw there are either weight distribution hitch with anti sway system or something called BMPro SwayControl Proactive Electronic Stability Control for example. I wonder which one is more practical to Outlaw HTO model considering its a compact van? And also Do I have to buy a weight distribution system as well? I wonder that are the differences between those two systems? Thanks.
Check out my Trailer/Caravan Sway Electronic systems video. Explains car and trailer based anti-sway systems. A short drawbar is less stable than a long one so your seller is wrong. Don't buy a weight distribution system unless you need to and the carmaker has said it's compatible with your car. You're right to be doing research, well done!
@@L2SFBC thank you. my question is, why not why a weight distribution system? are you saying as long as the ball weight is within the manufactory range then it should be ok?
My dad had ten plus years experience towing his caravan. But one trip he lost it the same way by loading caravan wrong.
Can happen any time! A good reminder.
Just survived a very nasty crash caused by sway. I was towing a large 10 mts long RV with an old RAM Van that was empty and has the v6 on it.
The vehicle was absolutely over its limits, the trailer was very unstable and the road didn't help.
Please tow with big pickup trucks or big SUV's like a suburban. The heavier, more powerfull and longer axle to axle length the better. Never think it is ok to push or go over your vehicles limit once or twice. I've towed constantly and successfully for over 5 years, I know fisics very well and I understand how forces play on this scenarios, I really am over the average driver on my understanding of this, but I was over confident and thought I could get away with one small run. I lost the RV, the Van, almost lost my life and My dad's life. Please keep your self well within the limits of your rigs and the limits of your skills.
Wow thanks for posting!!
When towing (suv towing a small cargo trailer) should I pack my actual vehicle a certain way? Should I put as much weight as possible in the cab of .y vehicle to limit the weight on the trailer? If I should load both the cab and the trailer how much weight is safe to put in the cab verse the trailer, as in what percentage of weight should go into my cab
Make the towcar as heavy as you can, and put the trailer weight over the axles.
I hope rv and trailer industry developing the towing hitch for a quick release if they subjected to a certain torsion force that represents Trailer rolling ,,, it could save the passengers life
Thought the limit for towing was 100kph ?
Depends where you are in Australia and what your rig weighs.
Didn’t even think about the electric break control button from the purpose of that the passenger can use it,
But funny enough in my Hilux the redarc button looked good dead centre in the dash ,,
Yep that’s why I did it like that!!
A great video indeed.
There is no substitute for understanding what is going on and not driving like can idiot thinking I can drive like it's just a car.
I try to transfer load from the van to the ute and of course keep weight off the back of the van to reduce the pendulum effect.
I have a 2019 Triton it has trailer sway control and also can use AWD on the bitumen.
I fitted Dexter Sway control to the van, it can apply either both brakes or left or right if it detects sway, the great thing is it can deploy the brakes before I could ever hit the reward button.
I have only felt it deployed once, driving on a a flat straight road at 90ks. and we got hit by a very strong cross wind, I could feel the van pull up.
It could be the difference between driving and surviving or being involved in an horrific head on with a another vehicle
To be fair, the driver was being careful but the trailer was prone to sway, and the driver didn't know what to do in order to combat the sway. Dexter TSC is great, I have another video on that!
@@L2SFBC I'm not bring critical of them, but the truly sad thing is anybody if just a car licence can buy a ute etc and hook up 3 ton of van and get into trouble.
I think mandatory accreditation would stop the heartbreak and tragedies or at least a dramatic reduction.
@@Steven_Rowe agreed I was just talking on the radio about that!
@@L2SFBC keep the videos coming you talk sense.
You should sell your videos to the ministry of transport and industry training companies as training videos. They are excellent.
Your point around stupidity vs ignorance is fair, but if someone is ignorant about anything road-related, there should be rules where they must learn what to do, before trying the real thing. I don't believe ignorance is a valid excuse. It isn't for guns and it shouldn't be for vehicles. They are big, fast and heavy - a dangerous combination in the hands of someone who doesn't know what they're doing.
To the drivers involved in this crash, I applaud you for allowing yourselves to be faced with us youtuber's comments and opinions.
I see your point and broadly agree with the principle, but the difference with guns and sports like say flying or scuba diving is that there is mandatory training. With towing, there is no training, and what training and information there is tends to be variable. So, if an activity is dangerous, there should be some mandatory training so people are equipped to deal with it. This comes back into the towing licence discussion - l2sfbc.com/why-australia-should-have-a-national-towing-license/
@@L2SFBC yes, I’d like there to be mandatory training/licensing for light vehicles towing a braked trailer.
Is there a tool we can use to measure the current tongue weight?
If I knew the weight I could move cargo around to adjust the tongue weight.
There is, just pick up one of these. However, note that mere towball mass does not always make for a stable trailer.
www.couplemate.com.au/towing-parts/weigh-safe-scales/towball-scale/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwxdSHBhCdARIsAG6zhlUqLoBeS-6B5BC6kLlfMDUzZr9soAuYgJshNtD3qslFpc9wR41a4r8aAh6_EALw_wcB
Repco sell towball scale about $60. Cheap insurance.
One thing about this combo is that it was at the weight limits of both. Why do people insist on towing at or above the limit?
Very lucky to be able to tell their story...unfortunately not the first and definitely won't be the last...a lack of basic knowledge not only in towing but also in driving a motor vehicle...hopefully a lesson learnt.
I don't think the knowledge is basic. It's not intuitive at all.
@@L2SFBC Yes I agree with you. It is not intuitive at all. Also you have to educate yourself on all the variables and metrics you need to be aware of. As the woman in the video stated she has driven for decades just not towed so put yourself in her shoes. She has enough experience to know her risks have gone up but not the right experience/advice to know she had additional self training to do before towing. I'd say that is true for a great many drivers.
Towball mass is likely the issue. I too have towed many things over 50 years and lightening off that towball with watertanks, spare tyres on back, lots of foodstuff under bedbehind axle is all it takes to go from a good heavy towball mass to an unstable 60 to 100kgs less, that's all it takes. Towball mass on heavy side is generally OK but go light and its curtains. Your video should be right on this as the huge variable that 'people' get wrong so often.
Not just towball mass. I really want to get away from the view that sway = increase TBM. It's an important factor, but not the only one. I'll produce another video covering it and about 20 other ways to reduce sway.
@@L2SFBC OMG Robert, your comment ....sway=increase in TBM... not what I said at all. It's the freekin opposite. ...sway=DECREASE in TBM.... what I am getting at here from observations and educating others whilst travelling Oz pretty well fulltime I see Dummies piling in the wine under the rear bed, big boxes of crap on the rear of van, front watertank empty 'because they supposedly get better economy(Doh)' And don't get me started with dual axle vans with very light loads on the towball. The loading factor is HUGE and if this one issue is solved I'm sure much of the "wobbles" would be eradicated and educators such as you just gave out one piece of advice it should be "TBM should be 10% of van mass when loaded". Don't confuse caravanners with a twenty things video but do the tbm right is critical.
Well kind of. You can get to the right TBM if you have heavy weights at front and rear of van far from axles. Which is awful. And my van tows we at 6%.
Too much speed is often a major cause of accidents. Recently had crazy caravan drivers overtaking on the Birdsville Track at over 80kmh and more! It wasn't safe travelling in a 4wd without a van at 60kmh...!
Yes I'm not sure I'd want to overtake at 80 on the Birdsville...
Poor distribution of the caravan load, is one of the prime reasons for "trailer"sway, but barely rated a mention in your video. The van in question had 3 water tanks, 2 of which were behind the axle, always fill the front tank first, and only fill tanks behind the axle if the front tank is already ull.
Correct loading of the van should have featured far more prominently in the lessons to be learned from this crash.
An Electronic Stability Control system fitted to the caravan would most likely have avoided this crash, and should have been included in the possible solutions.
I have not used the term accident above, because this was not an accident, but merely a crash waiting to happen, hopefully the courses the couple will undertake before they hit the road again, will prompt them to do things differently.
I have the same van and towed it with different tank setups. No sway.
There will be another video about sway setups and include much more on weight distribution. You're right to highlight it.
You can't make a blanket rule about which tank to fill when as much depends on the other weights and the size of the tanks. Too much ball weight can be a problem too.
My full video on electronic sway systems is here -> ruclips.net/video/ie_szIujKYI/видео.html
@@L2SFBC What was the main contributing factor to trailer sway in this case?
It's not known what the base cause of sway was. The trailer was pretty well stock, not overloaded. The Pajero was capable of towing it. So possibly low tyre pressures, misalignment...could be many factors so I didn't speculate without evidence. A follow-up video will cover all the many ways to prevent sway without being specific to a rig. However, what would have trigged the final sway was definitely the acceleration downhill, but there must have been some underlying issue as it should have been fine to accelerate down that little hill starting at 80km/h. It's a shame there's no crash investigation unit to figure out exactly what went wrong and why.
I agree with your points @Irene and Bob Murray and have said the same elsewhere.
I have a “little bit of experience” - have been towing heavy vans and boats for 50 years.
Two spare wheels? Just NOT necessary unless you’re going seriously off road. A TPMS on the other hand should be compulsory, will usually save you before the tyre gets damaged from running under inflated.
Sway control: a TOTAL no brainer on all but very small trailers.
Water tanks: often typically now two potable tanks forward, and a grey water behind the axle. That’s crazy, causing a MASSIVE difference in ball weight, and stability between full potable tanks/empty grey water vs empty potable/full grey water.
You end up with a Jeckle and Hyde van, stable one trip then lethal on the next.
Rare to see a single axle one do this i see literally hundreds flipping over on the Bruce highway but never a single axle van.
Maybe because singles are lighter than tandems, and the heavier the trailer, the greater the problem?
@@L2SFBC Yes that would be my guess also. Tandem axle is more stable but also might indicate a heavier van.
Interesting comment at 7:02 7:31 from Andrea early in the interview. Andrea stated that when he picked up the hybrid from the dealer noticed wobble. Obviously the van would have been empty so why would there be sway if the vehicle is rated to 2500kgs tow capacity. Something is not right here.
Definitely. It's a red flag. These things never get better. Should tow fine regardless of tanks.