@ anytime your content is pure gold, I wish you lived/rode in the dolomites so I could meet you and shake your hand to say thank you for all I learnt from your videos.
The best and most granular deep-dive into and down the rocker/camber rabbit hole on RUclips! Hands down "numero uno" snowboard channel! Keep it up, Lars!
Dang.... That feel nice to read this!! :-) Thank you so much!! Please share your stoke with others. Biggest thing you can do for me!! Thanks again!! I really appreciate your support!
24:25 "a flat board teaches confidence" this is SUPER true, I love my flat to early rise. On paper i think flats are the worst since there is 0 dampening or extra spring of any kind unlike both rocker and camber, but in practice that means YOU are riding the hill and not the board, so you feel the snow and react to what's under foot closely. There's nothing to physically get unpredictable unlike the pressure points any flex has. At the end of the day I'm currently camp camrock, but flat boards are quite underrated in what they offer and how little theyre discussed or made. Definitely worth having one in any quiver
I agree with everything except the damping aspect. Flat - as soon as tipped on edge, which is in every turn - has dampening! As soon as you tilt it, you push into the sidecut, which bends the board past its neutral shape (flat). The only shape that lacks this kind of dampening is rocker between the feet! 🙂
I really appreciate how honest, informative, and humble this video is. The bits of snowboard history pair well with your many years of first hand experience. I have been looking for a channel that dives into the "nuances" without losing sight of the main point. Very good job sir, thank you for your time. I have subscribed for more! P.S. - Last week I ordered a, Lib Tech Skate Banana, as my first snowboard, but the order was canceled because inventory ran out. It was a blessing in disguise because I learned I wanted a board with more traditional camber to help me find an edge and build confidence. This video confirmed my thoughts. Now, I am even more stoked to shred the, Capita Indoor Survival 2024, which is only 4 cm shy of a traditional camber. Wish me luck!
Glad u didn’t waste your money….. I love full camber myself, living in the east coast. And if u like speed and control (just like camber struggles in powder), that’s what directional boards are for…. Rockers are useless for that.
That rocker in center and camber on sides = Flying V of Burton. I had Camber 168 Custom x Burton for 10 years… than I switched to 158 Custom Flying V! I Could Not drive down the slope 😁🤣🤣 it was just spinning around and I could not drive straight! It was nuts! However, after I learned to handle that beast… it is the best board I ever had! It is amazing in powder without shifting back! It is amazing for flipping around on the groms! Also, after a while I learned to FLY down the groomed tracks so SOOO fast! (It doesn’t catch edge and doesn’t slow down when flat or close to flat!) I highly recommend spending a FULL season on Flying V!
However! Shorter board for Flying V because it is softer as well. Or take Progress instead of Custom, it is softer but set it 1 inch back to be. Same as Custom instead of true twin
@@atomiccheerio3349I tried Progress Flying V, same 156cm length as my Custom Flying V…. Damm the only difference between them is that Progress is softer and true-twin! But dammm!!! I loved how progress handled! Because it I softer Flying V is much easier to put down - it it so much easier to stop after the spin, Custom just DOES NOT catch an edge (I have been riding that model for 12y so I’m very used to it) , but softer Flying V is so much more user friendly! Downside of progress is that the pop is not as easy / not a high! But flyingV is fun, amazing in powder, allows you to mess it up and won’t catch an edge, great for all mountain - but much worse in carving! I also took custom Camber - my style changed right away! Started moving edge to edge carving instead of sliding a tail. Did not catch an edge in that day but def felt like it want to bite every bump when going flat…. Very interesting 🎉 --- oh! Going in switch (other leg far forward was much easier on my Custom Flying V than Camber, again likely because it is forgiving, so my inexperience with right foot up was hidden away)
I had the same experience with Burton flying V, it was confusing the first few days and then it became the best board I had tried, I have never catched an edge, Soo forgiven, but break less
One of the best videos on Rocker VS Camber. I never really understood the differences but your video was very informational and easy to understand the differences and why it matters.
LONG RANT ALERT: My opinion is the same as yours. I've been an instructor for 27 years, and I am tired of the """experts""" from shops, selling rocker boards to beginners. I like rocker, but in my opinion is for people who are at least mid-high level. Yes, it's very forgiving, but it's total discontrol. On the other hand, camber forces beginners to do the right technique, and they'll increasingly gain control. That's why soft boards with a really mellow camber, exist, aside from the personal preferences (I like soft boards like the old Funslinger or the Tweaker), so beginners can progress in the right way. I have many sotries of clients who wanted to buy gear and they asked me, and I told them exactly the model, size, etc, and I told them, "listen, they are going to try to sell you a rocker board, they are going to say I am wrong if you say that your teacher has told you, so you don't say it, you just go and ask for this model in this size, or similar, and that you want camber if they offer you rocker boards". They always came back telling me how I was right, that they really really tried to sell them a fkg rocker. This is because the Banana made a huge impact, and all the brands started to make rocker boards, till the point that there was a period, like 3 or 4 seasons, that you barely could find a traditional camber board. It was fkg crazy. All of them were either flat, or rocker, and crazy stupid things like that V shape from Burton. One of my clients, a teenager, didn't listen to me and came back with that board, and he ended up renting a regular board because he was absolutely unable to make a basic controlled turn on that thing. I swear to god I really wanted to talk to the guy who convinced him... I don't even use rocker boards when I have to work because when it's not kids, but adults and teenagers, I like to explain how things work and why they work that way, what happens to the board when you do this or that, and why the board does that, and with a rocker is different, and if you are trying to demonstrate with a rocker, they are not going to see it, simply because you are not doing what you told them you were going to show them. That's because 99% of my clients rent the material. From time to time there's someone who came with a rocker board, but it's ok, I adapt the class, but I try to explain to them all what I've said. You don't know how many clients I have had through all these years that were stuck in their level, not progressing, and when I told them to try a camber board and they did, they couldn't believe it. Camber is not so forgiving, but it helps you. It's like the boots, I need really stiff boots, which are not for beginners, but I need them because I need the gear to help me for my riding. I am not a genius like Kevin Jones, who used to ride even without lacing his boots. I can't understand how can you ride like that with loose soft boots. But he is a genius, and I am an average rider. Well camber and rocker are kind of the same issue I think. Maybe camber is less forgiving but it helps you, while rocker forgives you a lot but you need to unlock a certain level to truly progress with it. Of course there are exceptions, and of course I am sure that there are many people who learned with rocker, and they are now really good riders and still like rocker. And that's great, we all are different and our ridings are different, but I think they are the exceptions to the rule, at least for what I've seen thought all these years. Some background about me and why my opinion: Like most of us, I've been a park rat half of my snowboarding life, I am 46 now and I've been snowboarding for 31 years, full seasons, and double seasons. My riding was evolving till the point that I didn't want more rocker, except for powder specific boards, like my beloved Arbor Terrapin, OOOOORRRR, the hybrid combos from Never Summer. I don't know how these people do it but NS boards are fkg amazing. Rocker dominant but feels like camber, a 3/10 of stiffness but huge pop and can handle high speeds... Anyway, as I was saying, I prefer camber, even true twins, even for rare boards designed for off piste, like the Santoku, another one of my all time favs, a strange true twin with big tips and a board that you have to size up and doesn't feel like a titanic under your feet. I was full into the rocker trend back in the day, even though I always recommended camber to my clients because my opinion back then was the same: it's for people who can ride at a certain level already. The forgiving aspect is, in my opinion, a side effect and not at all intended. But now, with the exception of the NS boards, I can't enjoy rocker unless is in deep pow, and I love it. For carving, side hits, park laps, uneven snow, etc, give me camber. Not much, not super stiff, it hasn't to be hyper traditional from contact point to contact point, but give me camber. For splitboarding, you have to have camber if you want a more comfortable (and safe) hike up. But the set back camber and the early rise of the nose is a really good solution. Overall, this is just an opinion based on what I've observed and experienced all these years. After all, I am just a fkg teacher, and you know what they say: If you can't, you teach lol. I have friends my age who are still sending rodeos everywhere and unlike me they don't want to hear about camber, but that's my point: rocker it's not for begginers. But I repeat, IT'S JUST AN OPINION, not the truth. Ok, that's it, sorry for my bad english and the long comment. Oh yeah, sorry, two Big Macs with extra pickles thank you. PS: great video. I love this "nerdy" side of snowboarding. A suggestion for the next one: The true names of grabs, spins, and tweaks. The simple ones, not the double, triple, or quadruple bs of nowadays, which I call flippity floppity spinningy to all of it because I don't even know wtf are they doing anymore lol. Don't get me wrong, I find it impressive of course, it's just that my brain can't decode what is happening lol.
I wouldn't say that Skate Banana or any Flying Vs are actually rockers. Those are very special shapes for experienced riders who are 100% sure that they want exactly those. They are definitely not for beginners. P.S. Talking about rockers presenting SB as an example is kind of, "Meh?"
Yeah, and the worst excess are those "catch free" "learn to ride" boards... Like you said, camber is not forgiving bad technique, so the first few days may suck, but the instant feedback prevents you from developing any bad technique that makes you catch an edge, so after those days you have a solid foundation to progress with. A board tolerating all kinds of mistakes a beginner may unknowingly make, especially when there is no instructor around to point them out, on the other hand allows for those mistakes to become habits that later are going to be much harder to unlearn.
Haha, yeah long rant from skier added as well 🙂 For me the relentless marketing of rocker has led to an explosion of utter beginners going off piste, because they say the ski can make it all happen.... not so really. There is also the BS line of "helps initiate the turn" and other such crap. People seem to think the tech can overcome the technique, which again is not true. The best most versatile one ski quivver plank i've used to date is still the Atomic Theory from cica 2012. Had beefy camber nuder foot, very little rocker in tip or tails, like less than 2mm maybe, and it was only started i think 10cm from tails, and similar from tips. There was also no tapering away of the effective edge before tip and tails, meaning you have a long effective edge, great for carving. Now that ski was great for me, as i have skied for over 30 years and used to race and compete in freestyle later on. So my technique is solid everywhere. And for sure if you like carving off a 15-20m kicker this sort of ski will feel great and confidence inspiring. I also liked it in deep pow, but i don't go building massive off piste kickers or drop cliffs bigger than about 10-15 foot drops. It still amuses me though that you see loads of people skiing all day long on piste with skis with huge long rocker flapping around like the waste of money it is in that situation. Most people in Europe these days spend waaaaayyyy more time on piste, so rocker is a complete waste of money. Learning the right technique with some proper lessons would be a far better investment 😀
@@timeflex why? It's THE rocker board the masses refer to. I understand what you mean, but I think I'm pretty nuanced in the video, talking about full surf inspired rocker and flat/early rise for minutes.... What other rockers do you want mentioned and for what reason?
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I guess, we should differentiate masses then. If we talk about experienced riders, to whom (if I'm not mistaken) both Lib Tech and Burton address those boards, then we should exclude any references to the beginners. If, however, we talk about masses of newbies, who just started and who want to have at least some fun and as few injuries as possible, then, I think, neither of those boards are a good example. In the latter case, I would say something like Capita Pathfinder Reverse could be a better choice. Again, just a personal oppinion.
Wow Lars hit us heavy hitting psychology regarding confidence security control. What a great video I'm teaching my 6yo right now and you just changed my whole view point
I own all types of shapes, but I just love a simple rocker board. So much fun on and off piste. Might not perform as well on ice, but I don’t buy a board with the intention to go on ice all day long. What I love about rockers and also flat / rockers, is how cruisy they are, so much fun for buttering and not prone to catching an edge, especially when doing spinning butters. And don’t even need to mention how much fun they’re in pow.
My GF sister feels this way too, but this seems to be counter to what the video says… am I missing something? I’ve only been on 2 boards K2 Select (2007) and 2025 Salomon DanceHaul. Neither rockers.
Detuning the edges at the tip and tail of full camber boards really was a game changer back in the day. It seems to tame the bite when you initiate turns and takes away the feeling of the tip or tail fighting for dominance. Much more balanced feeling.
Thank you! Yeah.... I've spent my time since 2008 observing people's riding, learning, the market, the hype, the facts... behind board shapes.... The misconception is real! Someone's gotta shine some light into the dark corners ;-)
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel first thing a instructor told me when giving me advice about my 6-year-old learning to snowboard was to get a rocker board because he won't catch an edge but catching an edge is what teaches you what not to do lol quickly 😆
Thanks Lars. Lots of useful info and history bits. I come from a hard boot background and lots of teaching and instructor training. I was on Burton for years and for the last 5-6 years I've been (re) discovering stuff like Korua and LibTech. I got on a Golden Orca 161 C2 camber last year and suprisignly its one of my favorite carving boards. Nothing like my Café Racer 159 full camber but so much fun. And right in the middle, I like to ride a Burton Fish 156 flat top camber even on the hard pack and trees. So easy to turn with a very cool surfy feeling. So to your point, there is no perfect camber, just use what you're having fun with and/or what works best with the conditions you have that day. Still keeping an eye out for that ''Quiver killer'" board... if such a thing exists.
Just an FYI, the Golden Orca is C2x camber, which is a variation of the C2 with even less rocker and more camber under the feet. I've tried the Golden Orca, and it's a pretty fun ride. The C2 and Banana profiles are a lot more rocker-like, and less versatile profiles, IMO.
Absolute masterclass video, I recently refreshed a Nidecker smoke XL from my dad and I contacted them and they said it predated their website it was so old. Sometime from 2004 - 2007 but its awesome from better snow days (US East coast). Hats off to you my man you're doing the lords work and lets me easily show/explain to my beginner friends the science behinds the movements and gear!
I like flat base, no rocker no camber, medium stiff center, soft contact points. Got a 90s board like that and I love it, great with butters, mostly catch free, great with edge hold, floats well, doesn't feel completely dead, though there's less rebound its definitely worth. Only thing I hate is the side cut isn't great, I'd like a steeper sidecut to do deeper carves before buttering and maybe a bit softer than anything I have.
Thank you SO MUCH for this video, Lars! So helpful and useful. I went snowboarding for the first time this year and, as you said, as soon as I told the rental “expert” that I was a beginner, they gave me a rocker board. I felt all throughout the week the tail swinging around randomly and even if I didn’t catch and edge from it, it made snow build up at the side of the tail and it would throw me off my balance. Please keep doing what you do! 🏂 If only I had watched this video before. But now I am going again in February and will choose a camrock board!
totally agree with rocker boards not beginner friendly. My first board experience was a rocker board, and man did it just kept spinning! I could not control it at all. It felt like every body movement I made made it just spin until I was going sideways down the mountain and would just keep on edge catching!
So true! Nobody believed me back then when I said it was a terrible design to learn on... Luckily things have changed! Thanks for sharing your experience!
Great analysis, and the demo at 15:50 showing how the sidecut and board shape interact on edge is brilliant. The hybrid camber boards you can get today are the most versatile option, and most of the 'camber' boards being sold are actually hybrids, and they can carve fantastically, even with early rise on both ends. The only thing my true camber Donek is better at is carving on hardpack, which happens to be the majority of my riding. If I had to only have one board it would be a hybrid camber.
I learnt to ride on an old k2 parkstar. it had a flat to rocker profile and it was the best board profile to learn on in my opinion. I’ve ridden a lot of the Mervin c2 profiles and the uneasiness of the center rocker underfoot on hard pack is the opposite of confidence inspiring.
Great video brother. I’ve been on only cambered boards my whole life until a few years ago. Then I got the star dare camber with rocker in tip and tail. Most unconventional I have is a 2023 Rome Ravine Select. It’s rocker tip to flat camber back to front insert pack, then traditional camber all the way back to rocker tail. It’s pretty good help in the float, a little chatter at speed. Playful overall. It’s a little fat at the waist, but not volume shifted. I got the 158. I love it. I got a Ride Berzerker for this season. It’s a smaller waist width, much more traditional camber, quadratic (3x radius) sidecut. Stiffer flex. Throwback board. Probably a baby to the Deep Fake which is a baby to the Commissioner.
This has to be the single most informative video on the physics behind snowboarding I've seen. I thought I knew a lot about camber vs rocker and how they performed, and while I had the basic idea right, I feel like I have a much deeper and complete understanding now. Was reading through some of the comments and am excited to watch you cover 3BT! On a side note, as someone who also loves carving, powder, and enjoys a riding style very similar to what you mentioned yourself, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my current quiver and possible additions. I watched your earlier video with the Stranda Cheater and it has me very interested. I'll add more details below this comment
Rider details: 6'4", ~185lbs, US12 boot Current quiver: Korua Dart 160W DWD Pow Reaper 160W Nitro Cannon 203 Korua Pocket Rocket 129 Bataleon Disaster 156W Personal thoughts: Absolutely love the Korua Dart for carving and pow, probably my favourite board and best memories riding it, but sometimes wish it was more playful to throw in a few butters in between carves or coming out of a carve. DWD Pow Reaper carves nearly as well, bit more receptive to butters and switch (mostly mental for the switch), but not as great in pow as I'd like. I think the drastic upkick in the nose might be slowing it down. Pocket Rocket is a very fun board, understandably very niche though and not an everyday ride. Nitro Cannon also falls into this niche category, also too skinny so I'm wary of carving too deep due to my large boots, but I do love how stable it feels at speeds. Disaster is my remedy for the rest of my boards not being very butter friendly. Great for that loose fun buttery ride, and does hold an edge better than I expected, but again is a bit on the narrower side, so between the much softer flex and risk of booting out I find I don't have the confidence to try longer harder faster carves. I also owned a Rossignol Sushi 145 which I liked overall but booted out in the tail, and a Party Wave which was undersized for me but weirdly enough was the first board I learned to really leave trenches with. I've probably already overloaded you with information at this point so I'll try to focus everything down to a few questions. A) Is the Stranda Cheater noticeably/significantly better at carving than a board like the Korua Dart to the point that it'd be worth getting and taking over as my dedicated carving board. B) Is there any board that comes to mind as a good daily driver for someone such as myself? Something I can still rip a magnificent carve on, hit powder stashes with ease, playful enough to get some cheeky butters in. Wouldn't necessarily have to carve/butter 100% as well as my dedicated carving/buttering board but something I can take out without thought on any given day and not feel limited. My main problem last season was picking a board every morning.
First of all thanks for your kind words! Much appreciated. Nice quiver, too! :-) I could write a book, but that will take too much time to read. So in short to your question: A) Yes! There's no other board like the Cheater out there. Koruas carve very well. The Cheater carves better. It is the more carving specific design that isn't limited by having to appeal to some kind of cool factor... B) The issue is your physical dimensions. You're very tall, but relatively light for your height with big feet. Many of the boards that may offer what you want aren't really wide enough or are too short. The Nidecker Escape 162 XL (extra wide) could work very well. There's a 169, too. The waists are in the 270's... Board is camber dominant but not super stiff. Nidecker understand edge grip!! The board is a true allrounder and very cheap. Only down side: soft base will wear down quickly - but at least it's fast. I'm sure there are other options, but this could be a good one. Hope that helps! Check out my other videos! I'm sure there are more that you'll like. Cheers, Lars
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Thanks for the quick reply! The Escape wasn't even on my radar, so I'll make sure to look into that one, looks like there might be some good sales in Canada at the moment too. I have heard good things about Nidecker in general too, I remember looking into them when the Tracer caught my eye a few years ago. This video did raise another question for me. As someone who learned on a flat to rocker (K2 Turbo Dream) and then immediately became a camber diehard for all my boards after, do you think there's any benefit to looking into flat rocker boards as a more playful and laid back option for cruisey days with friends? Up until this point I've (probably mistakenly) immediately discounted any board as trash the moment I realized it wasn't camber. Of course a flat to rocker powder dedicated board like the K2 Special Effects or the Gentemsticks you mentioned (or even full rocker like the Korua Uberegg) would probably add some variety and a different level of pow performance to my lineup, but what about something like the Ride Warpig as a laid back all mountain option? Would something in that category still check off a lot of the boxes I want, or would I be disappointed by the lack of camber? I imagine a slightly softer camber board with early rise (which sounds like the category the Escape is in) would still be the better board overall, just curious if I've been "missing out" on an entire side of snowboarding. Either way, thanks for doing what you do with this channel! I'll be deep diving the rest of your content this season
@@kerrygorny2045 yeah, you're on the money! Flat shouldn't be discounted. It's literally detuned camber without the swivel pivot rocker feel... It's less exciting, for sure, and there a plenty of camber boards that are not aggressive either. Personally I wouldn't have a reason and particular need for flat right now, but I know that they ride well. The biggest size Warpig might work for you. But be aware of that silly tight radius!! Very low speed limit in regards to turning. Therefore fun and agile at slow to moderate speeds.
Ive had a Lib Tech board with the Bananana Rocker to it, Full traditional Camber boards, and hybrid boards that combine different profiles together and I can say that I preferred the banana rocker when riding Powder as it helped keep the nose up and out of the snow helping the overall float of the board
Great topic! You are spot on! I designed flat board back in 2005 for T9 but they didn't want to open the mold for it. I was going to adjust for the lack of camber with some carbon, core materials and core profiling to make it still have good flex and pop. I wish I would have just made them in a sample press, they would have been ahead of the others. Great job on the show!
I loved my K2 Raygun - massively confidence inspiring, brilliant in powder ( when set back ) and could happily cope with Black runs 👍👍👍 Id previously had a FULL camber Rome Solution and it was SO catchy it was a nightmare ( I only get 1 weeks boarding a year ) so never had a chance to get comfortable on it 🤷♂️ now on a Jones Frontier with mild camber but with early rise and mild spoon gives best of both worlds. Agree with everything said by Lars - the guy knows his tech 👍
Absolutely perfect explanation as usual! Corresponds with my experience too, i can connect laid down turns on my... Korua Uberegg, the ultimate pow board, the Banana of Bananas with insane taper on top, it works! It just only starts gripping from quite a high edge angle, but it grips! Of course ir's not as loaded and not as fun as a slightly cambered carver but still i was astonished by its carvability. My fav shape is probably slight camber or flat with early rise/rocker in the nose, like the shorty! Still pbbly can't resist to order a Pipeliner 2.0 for this season 🤪 let's ride! 🤙
Great video Lars. Very interesting. I have always bee fascinated by the different profiles (camber/rocker and sidecut) and how each works or hinders in certain conditions. Like most things in life when you ask what is the best profile you need to ask "what for?" As you mentioned several times in the video if you want one board for all types of riding in all conditions/locations then you will have compromises. It's kinda obvious but its true nevertheless and I guess that's why a lot of snowboarders have a few different boards. I started off riding pure camber boards way back, but for the last 10 years or so Ive been riding variations of the hybrid rocker camber types you mentioned and my experience is I love them. It has to be said though that my primary enjoyment is off-piste slopes, gulleys, trees, powder and not carving on hardpack or groomed slopes. Of course I ride them too and while my boards are no doubt not the best for them they are absolutely fine. Always enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Thanks! I find it much nicer than making people subscribe to Patreon and pay me monthly… feels weird. This way if you spontaneously feel like it, you can just ‘buy me a coffee’… or two…. or ten…. Hahahaha 😅
I’m riding a Nitro Team Gullwing and I feel that board helped me progress a lot to let’s say upper intermediate level. It’s awesome in powder and makes buttering easy at the same time I can carve it (not crazy steep terrain tho) and feel locked in, I can do euro carves on it. But I’m definitely not the fastest rider. One thing was a lightbulb moment what you said about the steering with one foot strapped in is on point what you say. I need to keep my second foot at the center point of the board to control the spinning point otherwise I’ll just spin out especially when you need to ride a longer distance or slight turn with one foot strapped in.. the extra forgiveness for edge catch is motivation as well because it sucks when you crash and get hurt. This doesn’t happen on this board but also of course as you progress you fall much less or not at all unless trying something crazy
Great video. Having rode all the various profiles. I mostly prefer camber with early rise in the nose for my daily driver and a volume shifted flat board with early rise for pow/trees. I totally agree about Flying V, it’s not good except in pow.
2:57 You could say camber is a form of technology lol, technologies go way back before electronics and even mechanics were things. Opening a coconut, making basic tools, art, all forms of technology. But I love your content man, am a fan. Js as a passionate linguist, who understands synonyms and literal words like the back of my hand. A lot of it is up for debate, and determined by personal subjectivity, rather than so black and white .
I'm somewhere between beginner-intermediate, and Camrock (camber mid, slight rocker tips) feels incredible to progress on. I also have a pure camber with great pop that I will use next when I'm ready to push myself, or on the hard icy days.
Camb-rocker or hybrid Cam-Rocker comes in two flavors. Your Stranda Shorty is one. Burton just recently released the Barracuda, and its rocker from the front contact point to center, and a small camber on the back leg. Your video is educational and i appreciate that. I suspect rocker compresses to a pre-determine amount, but this could also mean you accelerate on the curve faster because the rocker board carves into a larger arc on a curve.
Thanks for the comment! The rocker has nothing to do with the size of the arc or acceleration through the turn. Turn size depends on sidecut radius, board angulation, board flex relative to rider weight and even a bit on snow conditions.
Now I understand why I got polite "why are you riding this" vibes when you tuned my hybrid rocker a couple of years ago! It was OK when I was riding mellow soft stuff in Banff, though I never did like the squirrely feeling getting off the chair. I rode it once more in Fernie after you took care of it, but it just didn't "feel" right here. Now I know why; how cool to learn about the technical aspects behind my "feelings" about the boards I've tried.
Kessler late 90's early 2000's camber with decambered (rocker?) nose and tail revolutionised flex profile design in snowboards. There may have been others doing similar before that, but Kessler earned notoriety by dominating the race courses. They also incorporated innovative construction methods & materials using titanal & rubber etc.
Nice one!! Had no idea they were that early with this. Their sidecuts seemingly followed some scientific road building formula…. Like turns on a highway that allow vehicles to maintain the appropriate speed through the g force. I’ve never ridden a Kessler. They’re quite narrow… Maybe someday. Awesome comment!! Thank you!!
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel They do make wider boards for softboot carving too. Pretty sure Mats knows all about this stuff as he has hung out with the hardboot carvers at the carving sessions in Colorado in years past. Good stuff on your channel btw. A lot of people have no idea and get misled by marketing hype. I never met him, but Mats seems like the real deal. A lot of hardboot carvers seem to like his boards too.
Let me contribute a bit. I guess I'm a couple years older than you riding for ca 33 years, some halfpipe (back then), jumps, jibs, then all-terrain tree-runs/alpine freeride/freestyle. Also surf, skateboard. After many years I realized I need more than 1 board. For younger readers I will describe some boards I've had from the newest: *(1) LibTech T-Rice Pro* (rocker with mini two cambers under feet): totally perfect for tree-tuns and powder due to super quick turn initiation, pow floatation, super-important: enables pivoting in super tight places on "rear truck" (among dwarf-pines, etc.); enables surf-technique in turns which camber doesn't (i.e. initiating turn with front foot and ending up turn on rear foot); you can even have 2-3 cms shorter board then usual and even ride twin-stance in 40 cms powder (!); noticeably stable with cliff landings into pow; perfect on slush snow & trashed pistes, also (!) rather good on groomed pistes because the surf-turn-technique ability & good magnetraction edge grip; ligher tip & tail is good; negatives: rather bad for hardpack/snowpark jump take-offs, it feels as if you do not have much tail to pop off and you feel heavy, however that's not the case when jumping off powder knuckles where you pre-pump the pow and it tosses you up; also bad for jibbing on boxes (magne edge may catch, broke my collar bone); *(2)* I succumbed to the Olympics glory and thought I'd get a *Burton Custom Flying-V* : first I thought it rode rather good, but tail & tip felt kind of heavy, all-over it felt kind of old-school, the channel bindings felt kind of heavy, so I sold the board in a month, *(3)* Before, I had other 2-3 pcs *LibTech TRS* , the new T-Rice Pro is naturally the best version of these, *(4)* I tried *LibTech Skate Banana* ca 14 years ago on trashy slush, I remember my wide smile, as it was super-playful and agile, utterly different snowboarding, and I had decided to go for rockers, Skate Banana is (was) rather evenly soft, surely good for spring riding and jibbing boxes, *(5) Burton Jussi* (camber), I still have it and I just rode it last week on pistes again, I had had my best jumps/jibs on that 15 years ago, AND it's freakingly good for taking off, when you go front-edge to BS180 you can actually feel & use the tail till it leaves the snow (impossible on T-Rice Pro), feels 3x easier to take-off on harder surface; though I remember riding tree-runs on Jussi had been a pain in the a-s-s as the camber does not pivot in tight places at all; last week I also realized the difference with carving - on camber you can't ride the surf-turn-technique very much and you need to +/- initiate the turn using both feet equally, which kind of sucks, but anyway it has its magic when on harder surfaces; my take from this has been I need a camber/camrock board for no-pow days OR for man-made pow-jumps, I seem to be leaning towards YES board + NOW binding; maybe using 1 NOW binding with two blockers on Lib & YES; one more thing - the Jussi board is significantly lighter and I do not know why and I feel the industry ditched attempting lowering the weight of equipment (bindings, boots) which is WRONG. *(6)* I had some *Ride* boards, 2 *Burton* boards, a *Nitro* board, *Duotone* boards in the "old era"; classic cambers; I seriously think the equipment had hindered our progress back then, though Burton had been doing an honest job back then. So, for common riding you 100% need two boards (and maybe keep them for longer): a camber for park/jib/piste, a rocker for ATF/pow/slush. Have fun!
Thanks for the comment!! Always good to hear different perspectives/history/flavours!! Yes, rocker between the feet clearly has that pivot feel, which in certain situations can be beneficial. To me personally the cons outweigh the pros, but that is so subjective... - I just turned 47 and this is season #32 for me as a snowboarder and #42 as a snow sports person (started with skiing in the spring of "83). Sounds like we've lived through the same boards, haha. :-)
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Haha, nice, I'm a tiny little bit older, so basically the same age. To tell the audience the truth, I thought I'm getting too old and can not get much pop anymore, but damn it was the rocker, which - on the other hand - I totally love for dwarf-pine and tree sections (in Austria, am not Austrian). Eying on that YES board as future option, also for kids. Also probably Made in Europe when those tariffs are in place (shrugs). It'd be cool to review the recent Forum boards. Bye. Will subscribe now!
Rocker for good fluid dynamics, which is powder in snowboarding scene(or pond skim if you're considering doing that). Hence you see all ships have either flat or rocker bottom. I got 12 borads and ride Japan mostly. The two I'd definitely bring on deep pow days are flat and rocker.
I have a ride war pig, similar shape to the stranda. And I absolutely love the shape. The war pig is flat though, so no camber, but I spend my time in the deep usually. So it works for me. Loved the information though.
Great video! I have a new board that I just got this year in sales that is the Salomon super 8 pro which is backseat camber aka camber to flat in the nose as I was feeling optimistic about the season BC is getting this year bring on the pow! I wanted something to complement my ride smokescreen with standard camber profile which is a great little carver but not awesome in the deep. Interesting I went back to an old catalogue of my first board which was a burton blunt and it didnt even mention cam or rocker! Here is an exert: 2009 Burton Blunt While all your homies spend their weekends washing dishes to afford the competitions so-called premium park stick, youll be busy shredding the Blunt til your legs fall off. Immortal strength with a heart for park destruction, this low-maintenance twin gets upgraded with the bite-free slide of our Rail Ready tune, and ultra-light Pro-Tips to help you pretzel out of that rail you just slaughtered.
@3:10 yes I've been telling people this since 2002 park city Olympics rip shane...it was from his research into circa 1890s wooden skis and widest under foot
I had a directional camber board for years. Once I have switched on full rocker I have never looked back. The freedom on a rocker board has felt amazing. It is easier to do tricks , spins and buttering. I have never felt slower or unstable. If I have to describe a rocker board in one word it will be "forgiving". For a beginner a rocker board will save many nasty edge catches. In my opinion it requires less effort to ride in general. I have tried a camber board on a few occasions later on and I was struggling to nail my tricks on it. Camber requires more energy when doing tricks in order to avoid fails. Lets say that you learn 360 on camber and you are not very confident on your landings. If you have not completed your rotation when landing the chances are that you will catch an edge and fall as both sides of the board are pulling towards the ground. On rocker in such situation you land and keep spinning on the ground as one of the side of the board naturally lifts up. The only rocker disadvantage that I can think of is that it requires some upper body/arms contra-rotation to stop the extra spining after a landing. Overall, if you are freestyle or powder orientated rider the board for you is rocker or hybrid rocker like GNU Riders Choice. If you do not want to learn tricks and like high speed directional riding on the piste the camber will give you more confidence, especially on icy conditions. Note: The pros ride camber because they need a lot of speed for the big airs and they are experienced enough on their landings. For casual riders like most of us rocker is better.
Hi Lars, at first thank you for the great content. Especially the videos in it are great. I personaly own or owned all of these shapes. But I can remember the day when I tried my LIB TRS C2x the first time after a Yes Basic Hybrid Camber. It was so much fun. What I would say. It is not a dogma. Today all going back to Camber. But rather it is a question of the conditions and personal riding style. Of course you can be very aggressive and fast on a hybrid C2 board like the T.Rice Pro. It can also turn. Not so well like a full camber but it is playfull on the other side. The industry trend goes now back to turning and camber. The reason is that they want to sell boards. On a normal resort day for me side country, park and all between is normal. For that and especially in pow C2 is ok. But I try also make clean turns on it. I also love my Burton Custom camber. On a blue bird on well snowed slopes and in the park it is unbeatable. IMHO it is a little bit sad that camber and turning is currently so hyped that also LIB pushes out so many camber boards also over C3. Because C3 has Rocker in it and thats not good for selling. Especially after the Mike Olson video. Its crazy. Next year the T.Rice Pro will also come in camber - not C3. Even more crazy. Flying V is not good for turning. I agree. But years a ago, I was on a Burton Shurlock in powder. And that was insane. Also on Piste for my weight I was able to drive it on Edge. As I said-the conditions, riding style and my mood determine my board choice and shape for a day. For that a little quiver is key in my opinion. And also factors like board length, effective edge,… are at least as important as shape. Danke and carry on with your great content.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Yes, for me you kept the nuance! Especially because you also liked some of the pro rocker comments and my comment :-). I think the whole banana - hybrid wave comes more from skateboarding. That was good mentioned in the Mike Olson Video. Temple said in the video slashing the banana is fun. I agree with that. A great turn on the other side is also so satisfying. The only think that I dislike are phrases like real snowboarders never riding hybrid rocker and the hate behind it. This is the same like the camber hate years ago. Snowboarding has many variations of riding. That’s why it’s with wakeboarding the best sport on the planet. I like all of these great shapes but I agree I ride my camber boards also more often these days :-).
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Just a thought on the hybrid camber board. If the contact points weren't raised above the centre of the board this would make this profile alot better surely? But not sure if anyone offers this?
So cool seeing him ride the water skies down the mountain 😎 Also anyone else notice how little edge hold they had? He had to of been moving at like 50km/Hr side slipping down that mountain hahaha terrifying
It was killing all the fun trying to progress with speed! This board should be banned or just give a warning it is only good for slow speed. Thanks Lars for your channel. So many aha moments.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Yes, I watched that one too! Thanks. ;-) The thing is, even though I don't have a lot of experience in snowboarding, in my limited one, I've tried full camber, flat, and mellow rocker (same stiffness give or take). And the last one I found much more predictable and forgiving. For example, the turning initiation is easy because the turning point is always near the axis of symmetry of my body. Also, it doesn't need a lot of speed to carve, since it's always kind of pre-bent. On the subject of carving, due to the shape of the cut, you WILL load its nose and tail even at a low angle. Yes, the board will not spring up, but I'd argue this is good because it will allow a rider to master that transition at one's pace just with the knees.
good point, put your feet further apart and see how differently that rocker behaves. also to add to your carving comment, the spring out of the turn is overrated, the board simply cannot spring you into the air, you have to do it yourself on any board. it can take varying degrees of its own weight out of the equation but it is mostly cosmetic.
It's interesting. From late high school through college I rode a skate banana and a Rome that was mustache rockered. But those were like by far my most straight line at full speed years. Then I became an instructor for a few years and dialed in my carving and now I only ever want to be on camber. There's a shape for every style. When I was younger and just hauling a** the rocker probably helped me keep from exploding cause I could react so quickly with smear turns instead of AASI robot technique. Now that I'm more controlled and technique oriented the deflection and stuff from rocker that you mention is far more noticeable. To each their own. Different shapes for different styles.
I rode a Burton full camber for years and never seemed to progress, perhaps I had no confidence as I was catching edges too much. Last year I switched to hybrid camber (Jones Mtn Twin) and immediately became a better rider, and progressed much faster. I imagine I'm losing some effective edge, pop, and whatnot from not having full camber, but I feel the pros of hybrid camber outweigh the cons.
speaking of flying V… I had a Nitro gullwing for one season. It’s pretty much a flying V… it was not really confidence inspiring - especially at the chair lift and t-bar… had my worst edge catches with it and sold it after 20 days of riding. Went back to camber and never looked back 🤷♂️
Great explanation. I have an arbor formula rocker board and really don’t like it. I had a hire button custom that was heaps better and was old too. It seems to get great reviews but it’s not for me as an all mountain board. Maybe I’m not as good as I wanna be but I just can’t get on with it. I am now looking for a more rear bias board for Australian resorts.
I like to ride fast both switch and regular, I want tons of pop when hitting jumps, I like stability and predictability, team traditional camber all the way!
Well that [maybe] explains my less than glorious exit off the chair years ago on a rental Flying V!. FFWD and I'm thinking of replacing my mk1 Jones Hovercraft. I'm looking at all options, but also wondering what the 2.0 model spoon shape will do for me?
I could be wrong, but I believe Rossignol might have been first with the basic idea of CamRock with their AmpTek camber back in the early 2010's? The rockered tips might not have been as pronounced back then though. Magnetraction helps with some of the sins of rocker, that's why Mervin pairs it on most, it not all their rocker profiles.
Man I have a never summer board with the shockwave profile which is a very small center rocker and large camber zones under foot. I can confirm everything in this video is true. It makes me feel like a jerry getting off the chair with its tendency to auto spin. The camber zones are very stiff and the board really engages and holds an edge when I get aggressive with the turns rhougg. The center rocker also acts as a hinge point and makes butters easier, but overall the center rocker is a negative in my opinion. I wish never summer would just drop the gimmick and make camber dominant boards as their quality is great and I love supporting a company that manufactures in the USA where I live compared to every other company building in China where the labor practices and pollution can be terrible.
I struggled with learning carving on a hybrid camber (flying V, but not Burton) board. I switched to Nitro Team board, which has the simplest shape and regular camber. Only then I started to feel that I am getting it. Very predictable board, that for some reason, is often marked as "advanced board".
great video. when i teach beginners that have a rockered board, i need them to lean on their back foot more, because my typical front foot turning lesson ends up causing the student to swivel around way too fast any chance you'll be reviewing the never summer cougar (triple camber, whoa!)?
Does a swallow tail on a board with a cambered tail negate the anchoring effect? I bought an Endeavour Archetype which is full camber with early rise nose but not tail, although it has a big swallow cut tail. I haven't used it yet, however it seems some people find it a bit lacking in real powder. I'm planning to bring it to Japan, but I have a little voice in my head telling me my Skate Banana will still be better in Japow!
Great question! The issue with the Archetype is the width and the setback! It's not very wide, which is less floaty. But the bigger issue is that the reference stance is way too far forward for the amount of taper. The rider is placed way in front of the sidecut centre..... Once you set the board back from reference by at least 1.5" it'll ride better in every situation. Generally a nice feeling board, I find.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Thanks for your reply. Interesting about the reference stance, I would have thought a reference stance would normally be centred within the sidecut!
Great vid! My first and current board is capita pathfinder reverse which has rock-flat-rock profile. And now as i can carving on slow speeds, I feel like im intermediate. And i want to learn how to euro carve. Should i go for capita doa which is mostly camber. Or something more forgiving and catch free?(something like outerspace living) Its my third season with about 10 days per season.
Sorry, giving board advice without knowing another 25 things about you and your riding terrain is pointless... Maybe go find a shop and look at some stuff with their staff?!
19:32 I'm not sure that camber with its contact point behind the back foot will do you any good either. In the case of rocker at least you will have 2 points (middle and back) instead of 3. With camber, you will have just one (back).
I’m not so much thinking of contact points but rather what the rocker pre load in the centre does. I think no matter what else is going on in a board, that reverse loaded arc is not functional on hardback.
For the camrock design, i did one custom at home very early 90.. I felt pure alpine boards were to much direct on gripping, and freestyle boards just shit (at this moment), so why not a mix even to go in the powder !!! The custom was180 long, 18cm width 🙃 SG type Board with an asymetrical sidecut, but symetrical nose/tail, strong camber and long nose rocker. Surprisingly. it was quite easy riding for a so long/narrow and stiff board ☺but for powder forget it. The nose was more forgiving than a pure alpine, but the narrow shape and the stiffness was a problem. A good shaping experience.
Would love to have an opinion…. Never tried one. But really…., triple camber just seems so weird and unnecessary. I can’t wrap my head around it. Definitely gonna try to get on one.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Ha, my Ptoto FR 161X is for sale. Didn't really care for it. Just picked up an Amplid Singular. I think I'll like it better.
@@mikeyseifert80 I did have a NS Proto Type 2 once that I kind of liked. In fact I still have it but have not used it for years as I like my other boards so much better
It’s camber. Them calling it camber dominant banana is a bit of a joke. It rides well, but it’s simply slightly detuned camber. I actually like it. Just their marketing drives me nuts… 😅
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I've always called it "traditional camber with an extra flex point in the middle". My favorite Mervin boards are the ones with the C3, tbh.
@@elho001 I hear ya, but I don't think that's true. I could perfectly well 'market' the fact that Stranda uses a lot of ash in their boards, which is far superior to many other wood types in regards to tensile strength, flex retention and dampening at the cost of about 5% extra weight, which in return isn't even a disadvantage in regards to edge grip and that would simply be true. 🙂
Hi Lars. What's your opinion on the hammerhead carving boards with big camber and long edges like the Nobile N8 and SG Soul? I daily ride a K2 Alchemist 163 and it's pretty long, but always been wondering about those specialized boards that the Japanese and Korean carvers ride.
Never tried one, so can’t speak from personal experience. But the concept is proven. It makes sense. Still gotta get the flex and camber profile right.
Wait, so it's not just me? I've been fighting on my flying V for years, trying and failing to learn to make nice carves (I mostly ride on hard snow and ice). Daaamn is it fun in powder though. I think I'll keep it for the rare pow days, currently considering the Yes Standard Uninc or a similar aggressive "camrock". Not looking forward to catching edges again though, I hope I survive my first run 😅
It seemed like your discussion really did not consider where on the boards the weight is placed. It is not in the center of the board, it is where the bindings are, so many of those "rocker" boards actually place the weight in the center of a rocker span, which distributes the weight over the length of that span. So the board is not going to spin without contact as you seem to claim. My skunk ape certainly did not. I will say that my NS Valhalla is incredible, and tracks and carves like nothing I have ridden before.
I started learning with a flyingv and upgraded to camber couple years later. Still remember when I first tried camber I feel too catchy and fell a lot so I detune the board at contact point. Now i can go with much higher speed and can carve quite well on my toe edge but still struggling on holding my heel side carve. Should I sharpen my contact point back? The funniest part is when I try to switch back to my flyingv recently, I almost cannot ride and hold my edge which is exactly what u said 😅
Yes, the reason you catch an edge is that you make the wrong edge come into contact with the snow at the wrong time. Detuning the edge (or switching to a "forgiving" board) is avoiding the symptom, not fixing the cause. Yes, edges can be too sharp, but with good riding technique that does not lead to catching an edge, it will rather make a carved turn feel so locked in almost as if you could not exit it and are pulled more into the turn than you intended. Give the well tuned edges a try and if you struggle, get an instructor which can both identify issues in your technique and suggest exercises to overcome them.
@@elho001Thanks for your insight. I am not saying detuning the whole edge but only the 4 contact points. As I really like buttering and also want to carve with higher speed at the same time. Hope this makes sense to you.
@@garytklai Yes sure, I got that and I am aware that detuning the contact points is a popular thing. For a pure park rat it probably may make sense, but personally I am perfectly fine not doing it. 🤷 I do like both carving and buttering as well, but did learn on true old full camber about 30 years ago. Thus always keeping the board with the downhill facing/forward moving side angled up from the ground (exercise: do continuous spins/pirouettes on the ground) is something I internalized from the days on. Do I never ever catch an edge? During normal riding, actually yes, when goofing around trying freestyle tricks that I do not master yet, no. But those happen at slow speed without consequences and often are cases like landing with the board sideways (like if you made it only 270 degrees through a 360), where no detuning would help anyway.
im convinced this must be the best snowboarding channel out there
@@arthurb4240 tell those other snowboarders!! 🙂 Thanks for the compliment!
I concour! We need to make this channel explode. Every time someone talk about boots fittings on Reddit I point them straight to his three videos
@ thanks for doing that!!! 🙏🙂❤️
@ anytime your content is pure gold, I wish you lived/rode in the dolomites so I could meet you and shake your hand to say thank you for all I learnt from your videos.
@@marcodebortoli haha, that’s amazing! Thank you again!! 🙂🙏
The best and most granular deep-dive into and down the rocker/camber rabbit hole on RUclips!
Hands down "numero uno" snowboard channel!
Keep it up, Lars!
Dang.... That feel nice to read this!! :-) Thank you so much!!
Please share your stoke with others. Biggest thing you can do for me!! Thanks again!! I really appreciate your support!
Best explanation of board profiles ive ever seen. Well done sir
@@TheButcherOfWallStreet thank you kindly!!
Agree
What you said about Stranda is beautifully embraced by Korua. It’s very good at carving but awesome in powder.
24:25 "a flat board teaches confidence" this is SUPER true, I love my flat to early rise. On paper i think flats are the worst since there is 0 dampening or extra spring of any kind unlike both rocker and camber, but in practice that means YOU are riding the hill and not the board, so you feel the snow and react to what's under foot closely. There's nothing to physically get unpredictable unlike the pressure points any flex has. At the end of the day I'm currently camp camrock, but flat boards are quite underrated in what they offer and how little theyre discussed or made. Definitely worth having one in any quiver
I agree with everything except the damping aspect. Flat - as soon as tipped on edge, which is in every turn - has dampening! As soon as you tilt it, you push into the sidecut, which bends the board past its neutral shape (flat). The only shape that lacks this kind of dampening is rocker between the feet! 🙂
What we need in EVERY DISCUSSION is nuance! Thank you.
Hallelujah!!! :-) 🙌✌
I really appreciate how honest, informative, and humble this video is. The bits of snowboard history pair well with your many years of first hand experience. I have been looking for a channel that dives into the "nuances" without losing sight of the main point. Very good job sir, thank you for your time. I have subscribed for more!
P.S. - Last week I ordered a, Lib Tech Skate Banana, as my first snowboard, but the order was canceled because inventory ran out. It was a blessing in disguise because I learned I wanted a board with more traditional camber to help me find an edge and build confidence. This video confirmed my thoughts. Now, I am even more stoked to shred the, Capita Indoor Survival 2024, which is only 4 cm shy of a traditional camber. Wish me luck!
What a great comment!! Thank you so very much!
Have fun on your new board, and thanks for subscribing!
Glad u didn’t waste your money…..
I love full camber myself, living in the east coast.
And if u like speed and control (just like camber struggles in powder), that’s what directional boards are for….
Rockers are useless for that.
That rocker in center and camber on sides = Flying V of Burton. I had Camber 168 Custom x Burton for 10 years… than I switched to 158 Custom Flying V! I Could Not drive down the slope 😁🤣🤣 it was just spinning around and I could not drive straight! It was nuts!
However, after I learned to handle that beast… it is the best board I ever had! It is amazing in powder without shifting back! It is amazing for flipping around on the groms! Also, after a while I learned to FLY down the groomed tracks so SOOO fast! (It doesn’t catch edge and doesn’t slow down when flat or close to flat!)
I highly recommend spending a FULL season on Flying V!
However! Shorter board for Flying V because it is softer as well. Or take Progress instead of Custom, it is softer but set it 1 inch back to be. Same as Custom instead of true twin
@TomHenry2 ive been riding the NS harpoon. A lot of fun everywhere. Not the absolute best at one thing but so many things very well.
@@atomiccheerio3349I tried Progress Flying V, same 156cm length as my Custom Flying V…. Damm the only difference between them is that Progress is softer and true-twin! But dammm!!! I loved how progress handled!
Because it I softer Flying V is much easier to put down - it it so much easier to stop after the spin, Custom just DOES NOT catch an edge (I have been riding that model for 12y so I’m very used to it) , but softer Flying V is so much more user friendly!
Downside of progress is that the pop is not as easy / not a high!
But flyingV is fun, amazing in powder, allows you to mess it up and won’t catch an edge, great for all mountain - but much worse in carving!
I also took custom Camber - my style changed right away! Started moving edge to edge carving instead of sliding a tail. Did not catch an edge in that day but def felt like it want to bite every bump when going flat….
Very interesting 🎉
--- oh! Going in switch (other leg far forward was much easier on my Custom Flying V than Camber, again likely because it is forgiving, so my inexperience with right foot up was hidden away)
Yeah, FV was my first board that I learned on knowing nothing about different shapes etc. I've never ever caught an edge on it.
I had the same experience with Burton flying V, it was confusing the first few days and then it became the best board I had tried, I have never catched an edge, Soo forgiven, but break less
One of the best videos on Rocker VS Camber. I never really understood the differences but your video was very informational and easy to understand the differences and why it matters.
@@ChooChooReality so good to hear!! After all you need to try and find out. Just trying to make sense of the underlying principles. ✌️🙌🙏
LONG RANT ALERT:
My opinion is the same as yours. I've been an instructor for 27 years, and I am tired of the """experts""" from shops, selling rocker boards to beginners. I like rocker, but in my opinion is for people who are at least mid-high level. Yes, it's very forgiving, but it's total discontrol. On the other hand, camber forces beginners to do the right technique, and they'll increasingly gain control. That's why soft boards with a really mellow camber, exist, aside from the personal preferences (I like soft boards like the old Funslinger or the Tweaker), so beginners can progress in the right way.
I have many sotries of clients who wanted to buy gear and they asked me, and I told them exactly the model, size, etc, and I told them, "listen, they are going to try to sell you a rocker board, they are going to say I am wrong if you say that your teacher has told you, so you don't say it, you just go and ask for this model in this size, or similar, and that you want camber if they offer you rocker boards". They always came back telling me how I was right, that they really really tried to sell them a fkg rocker.
This is because the Banana made a huge impact, and all the brands started to make rocker boards, till the point that there was a period, like 3 or 4 seasons, that you barely could find a traditional camber board. It was fkg crazy. All of them were either flat, or rocker, and crazy stupid things like that V shape from Burton. One of my clients, a teenager, didn't listen to me and came back with that board, and he ended up renting a regular board because he was absolutely unable to make a basic controlled turn on that thing. I swear to god I really wanted to talk to the guy who convinced him...
I don't even use rocker boards when I have to work because when it's not kids, but adults and teenagers, I like to explain how things work and why they work that way, what happens to the board when you do this or that, and why the board does that, and with a rocker is different, and if you are trying to demonstrate with a rocker, they are not going to see it, simply because you are not doing what you told them you were going to show them. That's because 99% of my clients rent the material. From time to time there's someone who came with a rocker board, but it's ok, I adapt the class, but I try to explain to them all what I've said. You don't know how many clients I have had through all these years that were stuck in their level, not progressing, and when I told them to try a camber board and they did, they couldn't believe it. Camber is not so forgiving, but it helps you.
It's like the boots, I need really stiff boots, which are not for beginners, but I need them because I need the gear to help me for my riding. I am not a genius like Kevin Jones, who used to ride even without lacing his boots. I can't understand how can you ride like that with loose soft boots. But he is a genius, and I am an average rider. Well camber and rocker are kind of the same issue I think. Maybe camber is less forgiving but it helps you, while rocker forgives you a lot but you need to unlock a certain level to truly progress with it.
Of course there are exceptions, and of course I am sure that there are many people who learned with rocker, and they are now really good riders and still like rocker. And that's great, we all are different and our ridings are different, but I think they are the exceptions to the rule, at least for what I've seen thought all these years.
Some background about me and why my opinion: Like most of us, I've been a park rat half of my snowboarding life, I am 46 now and I've been snowboarding for 31 years, full seasons, and double seasons. My riding was evolving till the point that I didn't want more rocker, except for powder specific boards, like my beloved Arbor Terrapin, OOOOORRRR, the hybrid combos from Never Summer. I don't know how these people do it but NS boards are fkg amazing. Rocker dominant but feels like camber, a 3/10 of stiffness but huge pop and can handle high speeds... Anyway, as I was saying, I prefer camber, even true twins, even for rare boards designed for off piste, like the Santoku, another one of my all time favs, a strange true twin with big tips and a board that you have to size up and doesn't feel like a titanic under your feet.
I was full into the rocker trend back in the day, even though I always recommended camber to my clients because my opinion back then was the same: it's for people who can ride at a certain level already. The forgiving aspect is, in my opinion, a side effect and not at all intended. But now, with the exception of the NS boards, I can't enjoy rocker unless is in deep pow, and I love it. For carving, side hits, park laps, uneven snow, etc, give me camber. Not much, not super stiff, it hasn't to be hyper traditional from contact point to contact point, but give me camber.
For splitboarding, you have to have camber if you want a more comfortable (and safe) hike up. But the set back camber and the early rise of the nose is a really good solution.
Overall, this is just an opinion based on what I've observed and experienced all these years. After all, I am just a fkg teacher, and you know what they say: If you can't, you teach lol. I have friends my age who are still sending rodeos everywhere and unlike me they don't want to hear about camber, but that's my point: rocker it's not for begginers. But I repeat, IT'S JUST AN OPINION, not the truth.
Ok, that's it, sorry for my bad english and the long comment.
Oh yeah, sorry, two Big Macs with extra pickles thank you.
PS: great video. I love this "nerdy" side of snowboarding. A suggestion for the next one: The true names of grabs, spins, and tweaks. The simple ones, not the double, triple, or quadruple bs of nowadays, which I call flippity floppity spinningy to all of it because I don't even know wtf are they doing anymore lol. Don't get me wrong, I find it impressive of course, it's just that my brain can't decode what is happening lol.
I wouldn't say that Skate Banana or any Flying Vs are actually rockers. Those are very special shapes for experienced riders who are 100% sure that they want exactly those. They are definitely not for beginners.
P.S. Talking about rockers presenting SB as an example is kind of, "Meh?"
Yeah, and the worst excess are those "catch free" "learn to ride" boards...
Like you said, camber is not forgiving bad technique, so the first few days may suck, but the instant feedback prevents you from developing any bad technique that makes you catch an edge, so after those days you have a solid foundation to progress with.
A board tolerating all kinds of mistakes a beginner may unknowingly make, especially when there is no instructor around to point them out, on the other hand allows for those mistakes to become habits that later are going to be much harder to unlearn.
Haha, yeah long rant from skier added as well 🙂 For me the relentless marketing of rocker has led to an explosion of utter beginners going off piste, because they say the ski can make it all happen.... not so really. There is also the BS line of "helps initiate the turn" and other such crap. People seem to think the tech can overcome the technique, which again is not true. The best most versatile one ski quivver plank i've used to date is still the Atomic Theory from cica 2012. Had beefy camber nuder foot, very little rocker in tip or tails, like less than 2mm maybe, and it was only started i think 10cm from tails, and similar from tips. There was also no tapering away of the effective edge before tip and tails, meaning you have a long effective edge, great for carving. Now that ski was great for me, as i have skied for over 30 years and used to race and compete in freestyle later on. So my technique is solid everywhere. And for sure if you like carving off a 15-20m kicker this sort of ski will feel great and confidence inspiring. I also liked it in deep pow, but i don't go building massive off piste kickers or drop cliffs bigger than about 10-15 foot drops. It still amuses me though that you see loads of people skiing all day long on piste with skis with huge long rocker flapping around like the waste of money it is in that situation. Most people in Europe these days spend waaaaayyyy more time on piste, so rocker is a complete waste of money. Learning the right technique with some proper lessons would be a far better investment 😀
@@timeflex why? It's THE rocker board the masses refer to. I understand what you mean, but I think I'm pretty nuanced in the video, talking about full surf inspired rocker and flat/early rise for minutes.... What other rockers do you want mentioned and for what reason?
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I guess, we should differentiate masses then. If we talk about experienced riders, to whom (if I'm not mistaken) both Lib Tech and Burton address those boards, then we should exclude any references to the beginners. If, however, we talk about masses of newbies, who just started and who want to have at least some fun and as few injuries as possible, then, I think, neither of those boards are a good example. In the latter case, I would say something like Capita Pathfinder Reverse could be a better choice.
Again, just a personal oppinion.
Wow Lars hit us heavy hitting psychology regarding confidence security control.
What a great video I'm teaching my 6yo right now and you just changed my whole view point
Ha!! Amazing!! :-) Thanks for sharing!
I own all types of shapes, but I just love a simple rocker board. So much fun on and off piste. Might not perform as well on ice, but I don’t buy a board with the intention to go on ice all day long. What I love about rockers and also flat / rockers, is how cruisy they are, so much fun for buttering and not prone to catching an edge, especially when doing spinning butters. And don’t even need to mention how much fun they’re in pow.
@@mobaumeister2732 great comment!! Thanks for sharing!!
My GF sister feels this way too, but this seems to be counter to what the video says… am I missing something? I’ve only been on 2 boards K2 Select (2007) and 2025 Salomon DanceHaul. Neither rockers.
Detuning the edges at the tip and tail of full camber boards really was a game changer back in the day. It seems to tame the bite when you initiate turns and takes away the feeling of the tip or tail fighting for dominance. Much more balanced feeling.
Game changer? ..its mandatory
@@justinruins- …for beginners.
@ 15:56 i subscribed..... that was one of the best explaination of Rocker Edge I have ever seen 😳 brilliant
Thank you! Yeah.... I've spent my time since 2008 observing people's riding, learning, the market, the hype, the facts... behind board shapes.... The misconception is real! Someone's gotta shine some light into the dark corners ;-)
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel first thing a instructor told me when giving me advice about my 6-year-old learning to snowboard was to get a rocker board because he won't catch an edge but catching an edge is what teaches you what not to do lol quickly 😆
Thanks Lars. Lots of useful info and history bits. I come from a hard boot background and lots of teaching and instructor training. I was on Burton for years and for the last 5-6 years I've been (re) discovering stuff like Korua and LibTech. I got on a Golden Orca 161 C2 camber last year and suprisignly its one of my favorite carving boards. Nothing like my Café Racer 159 full camber but so much fun. And right in the middle, I like to ride a Burton Fish 156 flat top camber even on the hard pack and trees. So easy to turn with a very cool surfy feeling. So to your point, there is no perfect camber, just use what you're having fun with and/or what works best with the conditions you have that day. Still keeping an eye out for that ''Quiver killer'" board... if such a thing exists.
Just an FYI, the Golden Orca is C2x camber, which is a variation of the C2 with even less rocker and more camber under the feet. I've tried the Golden Orca, and it's a pretty fun ride. The C2 and Banana profiles are a lot more rocker-like, and less versatile profiles, IMO.
Try a Stranda Cheater 😆
This is by far the best and most informative explanation of the topic. Well done!
Wow, thanks! Glad you think so.
Absolute masterclass video, I recently refreshed a Nidecker smoke XL from my dad and I contacted them and they said it predated their website it was so old. Sometime from 2004 - 2007 but its awesome from better snow days (US East coast). Hats off to you my man you're doing the lords work and lets me easily show/explain to my beginner friends the science behinds the movements and gear!
I just posted your channel, hope you get some subs out of it!
Aaah! That is so kind of you!! Thank you very much and also thank you for your kind words!! All the best! Lars
I like flat base, no rocker no camber, medium stiff center, soft contact points. Got a 90s board like that and I love it, great with butters, mostly catch free, great with edge hold, floats well, doesn't feel completely dead, though there's less rebound its definitely worth. Only thing I hate is the side cut isn't great, I'd like a steeper sidecut to do deeper carves before buttering and maybe a bit softer than anything I have.
Thank you SO MUCH for this video, Lars!
So helpful and useful.
I went snowboarding for the first time this year and, as you said, as soon as I told the rental “expert” that I was a beginner, they gave me a rocker board.
I felt all throughout the week the tail swinging around randomly and even if I didn’t catch and edge from it, it made snow build up at the side of the tail and it would throw me off my balance.
Please keep doing what you do! 🏂
If only I had watched this video before.
But now I am going again in February and will choose a camrock board!
Great to hear that I’m not totally off track here. Thanks for sharing your experience!!
totally agree with rocker boards not beginner friendly. My first board experience was a rocker board, and man did it just kept spinning! I could not control it at all. It felt like every body movement I made made it just spin until I was going sideways down the mountain and would just keep on edge catching!
So true! Nobody believed me back then when I said it was a terrible design to learn on... Luckily things have changed! Thanks for sharing your experience!
Great analysis, and the demo at 15:50 showing how the sidecut and board shape interact on edge is brilliant. The hybrid camber boards you can get today are the most versatile option, and most of the 'camber' boards being sold are actually hybrids, and they can carve fantastically, even with early rise on both ends. The only thing my true camber Donek is better at is carving on hardpack, which happens to be the majority of my riding. If I had to only have one board it would be a hybrid camber.
Thanks so much for the kind words! I completely agree on board choice!!
Glad you mentioned flat. It's a profile I don't think we see enough these days.
They do thrive in pure powder boards. Burton Famil Tree has quite a few models that are basically flat with big early rise shovel.
Thanks
Thank you kindly!!
as a beginner this was so helpful for understanding the profiles!!!
Nice! Goal achieved! :-)
Thanks Lars. Your explanations are so informative
@@surfrico glad you like it!! Thanks for the support!! ✌️
I love good old traditional camber. Riding camber for 22 years, 40 something days on the snow every season. works just fine for me.
Everything works. And it’s all different.
I learnt to ride on an old k2 parkstar. it had a flat to rocker profile and it was the best board profile to learn on in my opinion. I’ve ridden a lot of the Mervin c2 profiles and the uneasiness of the center rocker underfoot on hard pack is the opposite of confidence inspiring.
@@connorkubilus8044 thanks for sharing!! Yeah, I hear ya… 👍
Great video brother. I’ve been on only cambered boards my whole life until a few years ago. Then I got the star dare camber with rocker in tip and tail. Most unconventional I have is a 2023 Rome Ravine Select. It’s rocker tip to flat camber back to front insert pack, then traditional camber all the way back to rocker tail. It’s pretty good help in the float, a little chatter at speed. Playful overall. It’s a little fat at the waist, but not volume shifted. I got the 158. I love it. I got a Ride Berzerker for this season. It’s a smaller waist width, much more traditional camber, quadratic (3x radius) sidecut. Stiffer flex. Throwback board. Probably a baby to the Deep Fake which is a baby to the Commissioner.
This has to be the single most informative video on the physics behind snowboarding I've seen. I thought I knew a lot about camber vs rocker and how they performed, and while I had the basic idea right, I feel like I have a much deeper and complete understanding now. Was reading through some of the comments and am excited to watch you cover 3BT!
On a side note, as someone who also loves carving, powder, and enjoys a riding style very similar to what you mentioned yourself, I'd love to hear your thoughts on my current quiver and possible additions. I watched your earlier video with the Stranda Cheater and it has me very interested. I'll add more details below this comment
Rider details:
6'4", ~185lbs, US12 boot
Current quiver:
Korua Dart 160W
DWD Pow Reaper 160W
Nitro Cannon 203
Korua Pocket Rocket 129
Bataleon Disaster 156W
Personal thoughts:
Absolutely love the Korua Dart for carving and pow, probably my favourite board and best memories riding it, but sometimes wish it was more playful to throw in a few butters in between carves or coming out of a carve. DWD Pow Reaper carves nearly as well, bit more receptive to butters and switch (mostly mental for the switch), but not as great in pow as I'd like. I think the drastic upkick in the nose might be slowing it down. Pocket Rocket is a very fun board, understandably very niche though and not an everyday ride. Nitro Cannon also falls into this niche category, also too skinny so I'm wary of carving too deep due to my large boots, but I do love how stable it feels at speeds. Disaster is my remedy for the rest of my boards not being very butter friendly. Great for that loose fun buttery ride, and does hold an edge better than I expected, but again is a bit on the narrower side, so between the much softer flex and risk of booting out I find I don't have the confidence to try longer harder faster carves. I also owned a Rossignol Sushi 145 which I liked overall but booted out in the tail, and a Party Wave which was undersized for me but weirdly enough was the first board I learned to really leave trenches with.
I've probably already overloaded you with information at this point so I'll try to focus everything down to a few questions.
A) Is the Stranda Cheater noticeably/significantly better at carving than a board like the Korua Dart to the point that it'd be worth getting and taking over as my dedicated carving board.
B) Is there any board that comes to mind as a good daily driver for someone such as myself? Something I can still rip a magnificent carve on, hit powder stashes with ease, playful enough to get some cheeky butters in. Wouldn't necessarily have to carve/butter 100% as well as my dedicated carving/buttering board but something I can take out without thought on any given day and not feel limited. My main problem last season was picking a board every morning.
First of all thanks for your kind words! Much appreciated.
Nice quiver, too! :-)
I could write a book, but that will take too much time to read. So in short to your question:
A) Yes! There's no other board like the Cheater out there. Koruas carve very well. The Cheater carves better. It is the more carving specific design that isn't limited by having to appeal to some kind of cool factor...
B) The issue is your physical dimensions. You're very tall, but relatively light for your height with big feet. Many of the boards that may offer what you want aren't really wide enough or are too short.
The Nidecker Escape 162 XL (extra wide) could work very well. There's a 169, too. The waists are in the 270's... Board is camber dominant but not super stiff. Nidecker understand edge grip!! The board is a true allrounder and very cheap. Only down side: soft base will wear down quickly - but at least it's fast.
I'm sure there are other options, but this could be a good one.
Hope that helps!
Check out my other videos! I'm sure there are more that you'll like.
Cheers,
Lars
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Thanks for the quick reply! The Escape wasn't even on my radar, so I'll make sure to look into that one, looks like there might be some good sales in Canada at the moment too. I have heard good things about Nidecker in general too, I remember looking into them when the Tracer caught my eye a few years ago.
This video did raise another question for me. As someone who learned on a flat to rocker (K2 Turbo Dream) and then immediately became a camber diehard for all my boards after, do you think there's any benefit to looking into flat rocker boards as a more playful and laid back option for cruisey days with friends? Up until this point I've (probably mistakenly) immediately discounted any board as trash the moment I realized it wasn't camber. Of course a flat to rocker powder dedicated board like the K2 Special Effects or the Gentemsticks you mentioned (or even full rocker like the Korua Uberegg) would probably add some variety and a different level of pow performance to my lineup, but what about something like the Ride Warpig as a laid back all mountain option? Would something in that category still check off a lot of the boxes I want, or would I be disappointed by the lack of camber? I imagine a slightly softer camber board with early rise (which sounds like the category the Escape is in) would still be the better board overall, just curious if I've been "missing out" on an entire side of snowboarding.
Either way, thanks for doing what you do with this channel! I'll be deep diving the rest of your content this season
@@kerrygorny2045 yeah, you're on the money! Flat shouldn't be discounted. It's literally detuned camber without the swivel pivot rocker feel... It's less exciting, for sure, and there a plenty of camber boards that are not aggressive either. Personally I wouldn't have a reason and particular need for flat right now, but I know that they ride well. The biggest size Warpig might work for you. But be aware of that silly tight radius!! Very low speed limit in regards to turning. Therefore fun and agile at slow to moderate speeds.
Ive had a Lib Tech board with the Bananana Rocker to it, Full traditional Camber boards, and hybrid boards that combine different profiles together and I can say that I preferred the banana rocker when riding Powder as it helped keep the nose up and out of the snow helping the overall float of the board
@ 5:19 that shane Mcconkey statement gave me goosebumps
I know......
Great topic! You are spot on! I designed flat board back in 2005 for T9 but they didn't want to open the mold for it. I was going to adjust for the lack of camber with some carbon, core materials and core profiling to make it still have good flex and pop. I wish I would have just made them in a sample press, they would have been ahead of the others. Great job on the show!
Great comment!! Thanks for the support!
I loved my K2 Raygun - massively confidence inspiring, brilliant in powder ( when set back ) and could happily cope with Black runs 👍👍👍 Id previously had a FULL camber Rome Solution and it was SO catchy it was a nightmare ( I only get 1 weeks boarding a year ) so never had a chance to get comfortable on it 🤷♂️ now on a Jones Frontier with mild camber but with early rise and mild spoon gives best of both worlds. Agree with everything said by Lars - the guy knows his tech 👍
🥳✌️🙌🤙
Absolutely perfect explanation as usual! Corresponds with my experience too, i can connect laid down turns on my... Korua Uberegg, the ultimate pow board, the Banana of Bananas with insane taper on top, it works! It just only starts gripping from quite a high edge angle, but it grips! Of course ir's not as loaded and not as fun as a slightly cambered carver but still i was astonished by its carvability. My fav shape is probably slight camber or flat with early rise/rocker in the nose, like the shorty! Still pbbly can't resist to order a Pipeliner 2.0 for this season 🤪 let's ride! 🤙
@@hiltithedrill yeah, Pipeliner is in its own league…. Absolutely love that board.
Thanks for the kind words!!
And yes, let’s ride! Ha! 🙂🙌
Bought a Korua Stealth ... great choice ... strong camber under the foot with a big rocker nose 👌
Great video Lars. Very interesting. I have always bee fascinated by the different profiles (camber/rocker and sidecut) and how each works or hinders in certain conditions. Like most things in life when you ask what is the best profile you need to ask "what for?" As you mentioned several times in the video if you want one board for all types of riding in all conditions/locations then you will have compromises. It's kinda obvious but its true nevertheless and I guess that's why a lot of snowboarders have a few different boards. I started off riding pure camber boards way back, but for the last 10 years or so Ive been riding variations of the hybrid rocker camber types you mentioned and my experience is I love them. It has to be said though that my primary enjoyment is off-piste slopes, gulleys, trees, powder and not carving on hardpack or groomed slopes. Of course I ride them too and while my boards are no doubt not the best for them they are absolutely fine. Always enjoy your videos. Thanks.
Love the comment!! Thanks for writing it and for your support!
The idea with the coffee is good, I like it:)
Thanks! I find it much nicer than making people subscribe to Patreon and pay me monthly… feels weird. This way if you spontaneously feel like it, you can just ‘buy me a coffee’… or two…. or ten…. Hahahaha 😅
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel
Please tell if you get to much ceffee and I will buy you something else❤
@@ancro2040 hahahaha, so good!!! Never enough coffee tips! 😉
I’m riding a Nitro Team Gullwing and I feel that board helped me progress a lot to let’s say upper intermediate level. It’s awesome in powder and makes buttering easy at the same time I can carve it (not crazy steep terrain tho) and feel locked in, I can do euro carves on it. But I’m definitely not the fastest rider. One thing was a lightbulb moment what you said about the steering with one foot strapped in is on point what you say. I need to keep my second foot at the center point of the board to control the spinning point otherwise I’ll just spin out especially when you need to ride a longer distance or slight turn with one foot strapped in.. the extra forgiveness for edge catch is motivation as well because it sucks when you crash and get hurt. This doesn’t happen on this board but also of course as you progress you fall much less or not at all unless trying something crazy
Dang it, Lars. I think I need a new snowboard! Super informative video; thank you!
Great video. Having rode all the various profiles. I mostly prefer camber with early rise in the nose for my daily driver and a volume shifted flat board with early rise for pow/trees. I totally agree about Flying V, it’s not good except in pow.
Awesome episode!
Your fridge just got a bit more crowded. Enjoy the flat white! 🤙
Aaaah!!! Amazing!!! Thank you for the support!! Share the stoke! 🙂🤙🙏
2:57 You could say camber is a form of technology lol, technologies go way back before electronics and even mechanics were things. Opening a coconut, making basic tools, art, all forms of technology. But I love your content man, am a fan. Js as a passionate linguist, who understands synonyms and literal words like the back of my hand. A lot of it is up for debate, and determined by personal subjectivity, rather than so black and white .
I'm somewhere between beginner-intermediate, and Camrock (camber mid, slight rocker tips) feels incredible to progress on. I also have a pure camber with great pop that I will use next when I'm ready to push myself, or on the hard icy days.
Camb-rocker or hybrid Cam-Rocker comes in two flavors. Your Stranda Shorty is one. Burton just recently released the Barracuda, and its rocker from the front contact point to center, and a small camber on the back leg.
Your video is educational and i appreciate that. I suspect rocker compresses to a pre-determine amount, but this could also mean you accelerate on the curve faster because the rocker board carves into a larger arc on a curve.
Thanks for the comment!
The rocker has nothing to do with the size of the arc or acceleration through the turn. Turn size depends on sidecut radius, board angulation, board flex relative to rider weight and even a bit on snow conditions.
I learned snowboarding on a stiff camber board. Now all all boards turn in nice and feel playfull. :-)
Now I understand why I got polite "why are you riding this" vibes when you tuned my hybrid rocker a couple of years ago! It was OK when I was riding mellow soft stuff in Banff, though I never did like the squirrely feeling getting off the chair. I rode it once more in Fernie after you took care of it, but it just didn't "feel" right here. Now I know why; how cool to learn about the technical aspects behind my "feelings" about the boards I've tried.
Oh hi Lelaynia!! 🙂 Glad this makes sense. Snowboarding can be anything from just fun to totally fascinating… ✌️🙌
Lars you are amazing! Thank you and stay awesome
So kind!! Thank you!! 🙂
Great take on this topic. They say nuance is an indicator of intellect :-)
* I'd love to hear more about the Stranda Tree Surfer in a future episode *
@@LovewindCO thank you and you will!! 🙂
I dig your vids, Lars. You might find a Lovewind sticker at a pub / cube hostel in Fernie ;-)
I hope to make it back in the winter
@@LovewindCO thank you!! And if you ever get here, reach out!!
Kessler late 90's early 2000's camber with decambered (rocker?) nose and tail revolutionised flex profile design in snowboards. There may have been others doing similar before that, but Kessler earned notoriety by dominating the race courses. They also incorporated innovative construction methods & materials using titanal & rubber etc.
Nice one!! Had no idea they were that early with this. Their sidecuts seemingly followed some scientific road building formula…. Like turns on a highway that allow vehicles to maintain the appropriate speed through the g force.
I’ve never ridden a Kessler. They’re quite narrow… Maybe someday. Awesome comment!! Thank you!!
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel They do make wider boards for softboot carving too. Pretty sure Mats knows all about this stuff as he has hung out with the hardboot carvers at the carving sessions in Colorado in years past. Good stuff on your channel btw. A lot of people have no idea and get misled by marketing hype. I never met him, but Mats seems like the real deal. A lot of hardboot carvers seem to like his boards too.
Extremely informative and confirmed my intuition. Thanks very much!
Let me contribute a bit. I guess I'm a couple years older than you riding for ca 33 years, some halfpipe (back then), jumps, jibs, then all-terrain tree-runs/alpine freeride/freestyle. Also surf, skateboard. After many years I realized I need more than 1 board. For younger readers I will describe some boards I've had from the newest: *(1) LibTech T-Rice Pro* (rocker with mini two cambers under feet): totally perfect for tree-tuns and powder due to super quick turn initiation, pow floatation, super-important: enables pivoting in super tight places on "rear truck" (among dwarf-pines, etc.); enables surf-technique in turns which camber doesn't (i.e. initiating turn with front foot and ending up turn on rear foot); you can even have 2-3 cms shorter board then usual and even ride twin-stance in 40 cms powder (!); noticeably stable with cliff landings into pow; perfect on slush snow & trashed pistes, also (!) rather good on groomed pistes because the surf-turn-technique ability & good magnetraction edge grip; ligher tip & tail is good; negatives: rather bad for hardpack/snowpark jump take-offs, it feels as if you do not have much tail to pop off and you feel heavy, however that's not the case when jumping off powder knuckles where you pre-pump the pow and it tosses you up; also bad for jibbing on boxes (magne edge may catch, broke my collar bone); *(2)* I succumbed to the Olympics glory and thought I'd get a *Burton Custom Flying-V* : first I thought it rode rather good, but tail & tip felt kind of heavy, all-over it felt kind of old-school, the channel bindings felt kind of heavy, so I sold the board in a month, *(3)* Before, I had other 2-3 pcs *LibTech TRS* , the new T-Rice Pro is naturally the best version of these, *(4)* I tried *LibTech Skate Banana* ca 14 years ago on trashy slush, I remember my wide smile, as it was super-playful and agile, utterly different snowboarding, and I had decided to go for rockers, Skate Banana is (was) rather evenly soft, surely good for spring riding and jibbing boxes, *(5) Burton Jussi* (camber), I still have it and I just rode it last week on pistes again, I had had my best jumps/jibs on that 15 years ago, AND it's freakingly good for taking off, when you go front-edge to BS180 you can actually feel & use the tail till it leaves the snow (impossible on T-Rice Pro), feels 3x easier to take-off on harder surface; though I remember riding tree-runs on Jussi had been a pain in the a-s-s as the camber does not pivot in tight places at all; last week I also realized the difference with carving - on camber you can't ride the surf-turn-technique very much and you need to +/- initiate the turn using both feet equally, which kind of sucks, but anyway it has its magic when on harder surfaces; my take from this has been I need a camber/camrock board for no-pow days OR for man-made pow-jumps, I seem to be leaning towards YES board + NOW binding; maybe using 1 NOW binding with two blockers on Lib & YES; one more thing - the Jussi board is significantly lighter and I do not know why and I feel the industry ditched attempting lowering the weight of equipment (bindings, boots) which is WRONG. *(6)* I had some *Ride* boards, 2 *Burton* boards, a *Nitro* board, *Duotone* boards in the "old era"; classic cambers; I seriously think the equipment had hindered our progress back then, though Burton had been doing an honest job back then. So, for common riding you 100% need two boards (and maybe keep them for longer): a camber for park/jib/piste, a rocker for ATF/pow/slush. Have fun!
Thanks for the comment!! Always good to hear different perspectives/history/flavours!! Yes, rocker between the feet clearly has that pivot feel, which in certain situations can be beneficial. To me personally the cons outweigh the pros, but that is so subjective...
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I just turned 47 and this is season #32 for me as a snowboarder and #42 as a snow sports person (started with skiing in the spring of "83). Sounds like we've lived through the same boards, haha. :-)
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Haha, nice, I'm a tiny little bit older, so basically the same age. To tell the audience the truth, I thought I'm getting too old and can not get much pop anymore, but damn it was the rocker, which - on the other hand - I totally love for dwarf-pine and tree sections (in Austria, am not Austrian). Eying on that YES board as future option, also for kids. Also probably Made in Europe when those tariffs are in place (shrugs). It'd be cool to review the recent Forum boards. Bye. Will subscribe now!
Rocker for good fluid dynamics, which is powder in snowboarding scene(or pond skim if you're considering doing that). Hence you see all ships have either flat or rocker bottom.
I got 12 borads and ride Japan mostly. The two I'd definitely bring on deep pow days are flat and rocker.
Great explanation, thanks!
I have a ride war pig, similar shape to the stranda. And I absolutely love the shape. The war pig is flat though, so no camber, but I spend my time in the deep usually. So it works for me. Loved the information though.
Great video! I have a new board that I just got this year in sales that is the Salomon super 8 pro which is backseat camber aka camber to flat in the nose as I was feeling optimistic about the season BC is getting this year bring on the pow! I wanted something to complement my ride smokescreen with standard camber profile which is a great little carver but not awesome in the deep. Interesting I went back to an old catalogue of my first board which was a burton blunt and it didnt even mention cam or rocker!
Here is an exert: 2009 Burton Blunt
While all your homies spend their weekends washing dishes to afford the competitions so-called premium park stick, youll be busy shredding the Blunt til your legs fall off. Immortal strength with a heart for park destruction, this low-maintenance twin gets upgraded with the bite-free slide of our Rail Ready tune, and ultra-light Pro-Tips to help you pretzel out of that rail you just slaughtered.
@@Typhoonis88 love this!! Great comment!! 🙌✌️🙏
You've convinced me, I must get rid of my rocker beginners board. The moguls on the red run are killing me
What a great video! 👏
@3:10 yes I've been telling people this since 2002 park city Olympics rip shane...it was from his research into circa 1890s wooden skis and widest under foot
Your channel is the most interesting snowboarding content i’ve seen on RUclips
Wish you a rapid growth of views and subscribers
Thanks so much!! Spread the word!! ;-)
Another amazing video!!! Well done Sir!
@@teluspirate thanks so much!! 🙂🤙
I had a directional camber board for years. Once I have switched on full rocker I have never looked back. The freedom on a rocker board has felt amazing. It is easier to do tricks , spins and buttering. I have never felt slower or unstable. If I have to describe a rocker board in one word it will be "forgiving". For a beginner a rocker board will save many nasty edge catches. In my opinion it requires less effort to ride in general.
I have tried a camber board on a few occasions later on and I was struggling to nail my tricks on it. Camber requires more energy when doing tricks in order to avoid fails. Lets say that you learn 360 on camber and you are not very confident on your landings. If you have not completed your rotation when landing the chances are that you will catch an edge and fall as both sides of the board are pulling towards the ground. On rocker in such situation you land and keep spinning on the ground as one of the side of the board naturally lifts up. The only rocker disadvantage that I can think of is that it requires some upper body/arms contra-rotation to stop the extra spining after a landing.
Overall, if you are freestyle or powder orientated rider the board for you is rocker or hybrid rocker like GNU Riders Choice. If you do not want to learn tricks and like high speed directional riding on the piste the camber will give you more confidence, especially on icy conditions. Note: The pros ride camber because they need a lot of speed for the big airs and they are experienced enough on their landings. For casual riders like most of us rocker is better.
Thanks for sharing! I love how we can all find what works best for us these days and your willingness to disagree! :-) High fives!!
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Sorry for the clumsy English, I was typing on my phone. I polished it a little bit.
I like the flat! K2 did a bunch of that for a while
Hi Lars,
at first thank you for the great content. Especially the videos in it are great.
I personaly own or owned all of these shapes.
But I can remember the day when I tried my LIB TRS C2x the first time after a Yes Basic Hybrid Camber. It was so much fun.
What I would say. It is not a dogma. Today all going back to Camber. But rather it is a question of the conditions and personal riding style. Of course you can be very aggressive and fast on a hybrid C2 board like the T.Rice Pro. It can also turn. Not so well like a full camber but it is playfull on the other side.
The industry trend goes now back to turning and camber. The reason is that they want to sell boards. On a normal resort day for me side country, park and all between is normal. For that and especially in pow C2 is ok. But I try also make clean turns on it.
I also love my Burton Custom camber. On a blue bird on well snowed slopes and in the park it is unbeatable.
IMHO it is a little bit sad that camber and turning is currently so hyped that also LIB pushes out so many camber boards also over C3. Because C3 has Rocker in it and thats not good for selling. Especially after the Mike Olson video. Its crazy. Next year the T.Rice Pro will also come in camber - not C3. Even more crazy.
Flying V is not good for turning. I agree. But years a ago, I was on a Burton Shurlock in powder. And that was insane. Also on Piste for my weight I was able to drive it on Edge. As I said-the conditions, riding style and my mood determine my board choice and shape for a day. For that a little quiver is key in my opinion.
And also factors like board length, effective edge,… are at least as important as shape.
Danke and carry on with your great content.
@@benjaminsimolka7187 love your nuanced take on this!! I agree!! I hope that as much as I’m totally a camber guy the video still kept the nuance… 🙌👍
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Yes, for me you kept the nuance! Especially because you also liked some of the pro rocker comments and my comment :-).
I think the whole banana - hybrid wave comes more from skateboarding. That was good mentioned in the Mike Olson Video. Temple said in the video slashing the banana is fun. I agree with that. A great turn on the other side is also so satisfying. The only think that I dislike are phrases like real snowboarders never riding hybrid rocker and the hate behind it.
This is the same like the camber hate years ago. Snowboarding has many variations of riding. That’s why it’s with wakeboarding the best sport on the planet. I like all of these great shapes but I agree I ride my camber boards also more often these days :-).
@ couldn’t agree more!!! ❤️🙌
Great Video Lars! Would be really cool to work out the difference in edge pressure between some rocker and camber boards
Totally!!! I need a lab!! 😅
@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Just a thought on the hybrid camber board. If the contact points weren't raised above the centre of the board this would make this profile alot better surely? But not sure if anyone offers this?
@@charley1326 correct!! Lib tech offers the C3 profile, which is somewhat exactly that.
So cool seeing him ride the water skies down the mountain 😎
Also anyone else notice how little edge hold they had? He had to of been moving at like 50km/Hr side slipping down that mountain hahaha terrifying
Omg is that a B joystick. ? I had one of those briefly. Great in pow and for goofing around. Sold it fast
@@Bohdisattva326 it’s a Process Flying V
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel ha ha. Same concept - suicide on hard snow at speed 😂
@@Bohdisattva326 hahahaha, suicide is absolutely correct!
It was killing all the fun trying to progress with speed! This board should be banned or just give a warning it is only good for slow speed. Thanks Lars for your channel. So many aha moments.
The key difference between skiing and snowboarding and is that in the latter case we do not press on the middle.
I hear ya! Have you watched this one yet? I’m talking about that there.
ruclips.net/video/wK6qYIN89rI/видео.htmlsi=LnLo4YxYcUt_Xng8
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Yes, I watched that one too! Thanks. ;-) The thing is, even though I don't have a lot of experience in snowboarding, in my limited one, I've tried full camber, flat, and mellow rocker (same stiffness give or take). And the last one I found much more predictable and forgiving. For example, the turning initiation is easy because the turning point is always near the axis of symmetry of my body. Also, it doesn't need a lot of speed to carve, since it's always kind of pre-bent. On the subject of carving, due to the shape of the cut, you WILL load its nose and tail even at a low angle. Yes, the board will not spring up, but I'd argue this is good because it will allow a rider to master that transition at one's pace just with the knees.
good point, put your feet further apart and see how differently that rocker behaves. also to add to your carving comment, the spring out of the turn is overrated, the board simply cannot spring you into the air, you have to do it yourself on any board. it can take varying degrees of its own weight out of the equation but it is mostly cosmetic.
It's interesting. From late high school through college I rode a skate banana and a Rome that was mustache rockered. But those were like by far my most straight line at full speed years. Then I became an instructor for a few years and dialed in my carving and now I only ever want to be on camber. There's a shape for every style. When I was younger and just hauling a** the rocker probably helped me keep from exploding cause I could react so quickly with smear turns instead of AASI robot technique. Now that I'm more controlled and technique oriented the deflection and stuff from rocker that you mention is far more noticeable. To each their own. Different shapes for different styles.
100% Thanks for the comment!!!
This makes me want a Ride Warpig for a responsive flat camber.
I rode a Burton full camber for years and never seemed to progress, perhaps I had no confidence as I was catching edges too much. Last year I switched to hybrid camber (Jones Mtn Twin) and immediately became a better rider, and progressed much faster. I imagine I'm losing some effective edge, pop, and whatnot from not having full camber, but I feel the pros of hybrid camber outweigh the cons.
I agree!
speaking of flying V… I had a Nitro gullwing for one season. It’s pretty much a flying V… it was not really confidence inspiring - especially at the chair lift and t-bar… had my worst edge catches with it and sold it after 20 days of riding. Went back to camber and never looked back 🤷♂️
Not ver confidence inspiring is about right! 😅 I feel ya!!
Great video. I’d love to hear your thoughts on camber height and its relationship to stiffness.
Hmmm….. good idea for an episode! 🙂 Higher camber means higher ramp up of relative stiffness. I like the idea of softer flex on higher camber.
Love your videos!
Thanks so much!!! Share the love! 🙂
Great explanation.
I have an arbor formula rocker board and really don’t like it.
I had a hire button custom that was heaps better and was old too.
It seems to get great reviews but it’s not for me as an all mountain board.
Maybe I’m not as good as I wanna be but I just can’t get on with it.
I am now looking for a more rear bias board for Australian resorts.
I like to ride fast both switch and regular, I want tons of pop when hitting jumps, I like stability and predictability, team traditional camber all the way!
@@juan_salvador_gaviota I hear ya. You should check out the K2 Antidote!! Great board along those lines and likely underrated.
Subscribed , great video thank you
@@chrischri6143 thank you very much!!
nailed it brother
@@kylemurphy7032 thanks!! Glad you think so! That one was tough to bring in line…. Two days of brain wars… 😅
siick! thanks for all this informations!
Do you know the rome stale fish? what do you think about that board?
Never ridden any Rome.Sorry!
Well that [maybe] explains my less than glorious exit off the chair years ago on a rental Flying V!.
FFWD and I'm thinking of replacing my mk1 Jones Hovercraft. I'm looking at all options, but also wondering what the 2.0 model spoon shape will do for me?
hahahaha, love this! :-)
I could be wrong, but I believe Rossignol might have been first with the basic idea of CamRock with their AmpTek camber back in the early 2010's? The rockered tips might not have been as pronounced back then though.
Magnetraction helps with some of the sins of rocker, that's why Mervin pairs it on most, it not all their rocker profiles.
Could well be! I remember seeing it with Nidecker around the same time. Definitely no later than 2010.
Man I have a never summer board with the shockwave profile which is a very small center rocker and large camber zones under foot. I can confirm everything in this video is true. It makes me feel like a jerry getting off the chair with its tendency to auto spin. The camber zones are very stiff and the board really engages and holds an edge when I get aggressive with the turns rhougg. The center rocker also acts as a hinge point and makes butters easier, but overall the center rocker is a negative in my opinion. I wish never summer would just drop the gimmick and make camber dominant boards as their quality is great and I love supporting a company that manufactures in the USA where I live compared to every other company building in China where the labor practices and pollution can be terrible.
Awesome video! Thanks!
What about bataleon boards, specifically in poweder?
Great question!! Haven’t tried them in powder.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel try the Camel Two, Chameleon or Surfer ;-)
I struggled with learning carving on a hybrid camber (flying V, but not Burton) board. I switched to Nitro Team board, which has the simplest shape and regular camber. Only then I started to feel that I am getting it. Very predictable board, that for some reason, is often marked as "advanced board".
great video. when i teach beginners that have a rockered board, i need them to lean on their back foot more, because my typical front foot turning lesson ends up causing the student to swivel around way too fast
any chance you'll be reviewing the never summer cougar (triple camber, whoa!)?
If they send me a free one, sure! 🙂
Does a swallow tail on a board with a cambered tail negate the anchoring effect? I bought an Endeavour Archetype which is full camber with early rise nose but not tail, although it has a big swallow cut tail. I haven't used it yet, however it seems some people find it a bit lacking in real powder. I'm planning to bring it to Japan, but I have a little voice in my head telling me my Skate Banana will still be better in Japow!
Great question! The issue with the Archetype is the width and the setback! It's not very wide, which is less floaty. But the bigger issue is that the reference stance is way too far forward for the amount of taper. The rider is placed way in front of the sidecut centre..... Once you set the board back from reference by at least 1.5" it'll ride better in every situation. Generally a nice feeling board, I find.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Thanks for your reply. Interesting about the reference stance, I would have thought a reference stance would normally be centred within the sidecut!
Great vid! My first and current board is capita pathfinder reverse which has rock-flat-rock profile. And now as i can carving on slow speeds, I feel like im intermediate. And i want to learn how to euro carve. Should i go for capita doa which is mostly camber. Or something more forgiving and catch free?(something like outerspace living) Its my third season with about 10 days per season.
Sorry, giving board advice without knowing another 25 things about you and your riding terrain is pointless... Maybe go find a shop and look at some stuff with their staff?!
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel thanks
Split boards have an argument for camber in that it helps you get better grip with your skins when you’re climbing
@@Surfratglass 100% true!!!
19:32 I'm not sure that camber with its contact point behind the back foot will do you any good either. In the case of rocker at least you will have 2 points (middle and back) instead of 3. With camber, you will have just one (back).
I’m not so much thinking of contact points but rather what the rocker pre load in the centre does. I think no matter what else is going on in a board, that reverse loaded arc is not functional on hardback.
ooh, just missed the live!
For the camrock design, i did one custom at home very early 90.. I felt pure alpine boards were to much direct on gripping, and freestyle boards just shit (at this moment), so why not a mix even to go in the powder !!! The custom was180 long, 18cm width 🙃 SG type Board with an asymetrical sidecut, but symetrical nose/tail, strong camber and long nose rocker. Surprisingly. it was quite easy riding for a so long/narrow and stiff board ☺but for powder forget it. The nose was more forgiving than a pure alpine, but the narrow shape and the stiffness was a problem. A good shaping experience.
@@XAVIERZAX great story!! Thanks for sharing!! 🤙
would have loved to hear your comment on Never Summer...
Would love to have an opinion…. Never tried one. But really…., triple camber just seems so weird and unnecessary. I can’t wrap my head around it. Definitely gonna try to get on one.
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel Ha, my Ptoto FR 161X is for sale. Didn't really care for it. Just picked up an Amplid Singular. I think I'll like it better.
I had a NS Harpoon some years ago. It was just a dead thing. I sold it after two days. I think the whole NS take on things are strange.
@@ancro2040 Interesting James Cherry is one of the big pencil carver riders at Revelstoke and half his quiver are NS decks.
@@mikeyseifert80 I did have a NS Proto Type 2 once that I kind of liked. In fact I still have it but have not used it for years as I like my other boards so much better
What are your thoughts on C3 from Libtech?
It’s camber. Them calling it camber dominant banana is a bit of a joke. It rides well, but it’s simply slightly detuned camber. I actually like it. Just their marketing drives me nuts… 😅
And TBH, the only marketing that is not BS is no marketing. 😜
@@Justaride-Snowboard-Channel I've always called it "traditional camber with an extra flex point in the middle". My favorite Mervin boards are the ones with the C3, tbh.
@@elho001 I hear ya, but I don't think that's true. I could perfectly well 'market' the fact that Stranda uses a lot of ash in their boards, which is far superior to many other wood types in regards to tensile strength, flex retention and dampening at the cost of about 5% extra weight, which in return isn't even a disadvantage in regards to edge grip and that would simply be true. 🙂
Camber for me !!
Hi Lars. What's your opinion on the hammerhead carving boards with big camber and long edges like the Nobile N8 and SG Soul? I daily ride a K2 Alchemist 163 and it's pretty long, but always been wondering about those specialized boards that the Japanese and Korean carvers ride.
Never tried one, so can’t speak from personal experience. But the concept is proven. It makes sense. Still gotta get the flex and camber profile right.
Wait, so it's not just me? I've been fighting on my flying V for years, trying and failing to learn to make nice carves (I mostly ride on hard snow and ice). Daaamn is it fun in powder though. I think I'll keep it for the rare pow days, currently considering the Yes Standard Uninc or a similar aggressive "camrock". Not looking forward to catching edges again though, I hope I survive my first run 😅
@@lumpy-porridge you’ll be fine!! Enjoy the ride!! 🙂🙌
I have the Standard Uninc and it's pretty forgiving, but 25 years of old camber made the Uninc pure love.👍
I ride a libtech t Rice Pro banana and I love that bored
It seemed like your discussion really did not consider where on the boards the weight is placed. It is not in the center of the board, it is where the bindings are, so many of those "rocker" boards actually place the weight in the center of a rocker span, which distributes the weight over the length of that span. So the board is not going to spin without contact as you seem to claim. My skunk ape certainly did not. I will say that my NS Valhalla is incredible, and tracks and carves like nothing I have ridden before.
@@bobskier4274 I do talk about that. Maybe listen again.
I started learning with a flyingv and upgraded to camber couple years later. Still remember when I first tried camber I feel too catchy and fell a lot so I detune the board at contact point. Now i can go with much higher speed and can carve quite well on my toe edge but still struggling on holding my heel side carve. Should I sharpen my contact point back?
The funniest part is when I try to switch back to my flyingv recently, I almost cannot ride and hold my edge which is exactly what u said 😅
Yes, the reason you catch an edge is that you make the wrong edge come into contact with the snow at the wrong time. Detuning the edge (or switching to a "forgiving" board) is avoiding the symptom, not fixing the cause.
Yes, edges can be too sharp, but with good riding technique that does not lead to catching an edge, it will rather make a carved turn feel so locked in almost as if you could not exit it and are pulled more into the turn than you intended.
Give the well tuned edges a try and if you struggle, get an instructor which can both identify issues in your technique and suggest exercises to overcome them.
@@elho001 100% true! Great comment!!
what @elhoo001 says!! Great question, though!!
@@elho001Thanks for your insight. I am not saying detuning the whole edge but only the 4 contact points. As I really like buttering and also want to carve with higher speed at the same time. Hope this makes sense to you.
@@garytklai Yes sure, I got that and I am aware that detuning the contact points is a popular thing. For a pure park rat it probably may make sense, but personally I am perfectly fine not doing it. 🤷
I do like both carving and buttering as well, but did learn on true old full camber about 30 years ago. Thus always keeping the board with the downhill facing/forward moving side angled up from the ground (exercise: do continuous spins/pirouettes on the ground) is something I internalized from the days on.
Do I never ever catch an edge? During normal riding, actually yes, when goofing around trying freestyle tricks that I do not master yet, no. But those happen at slow speed without consequences and often are cases like landing with the board sideways (like if you made it only 270 degrees through a 360), where no detuning would help anyway.
great video
@@swrd2k834 Thank you kindly!! 🙏