L'affaire Ginault: Fraud in the Watch Industry?

/ williebegoode

[@user-hb1uh9mn1h]

Hello sir, I just happened upon this podcast, and I had to tell you how much I enjoyed it. It’s nice to see a guy “like it is.“ In a short time, I gather do have quite a background in horology!
I also appreciate your comments on Ginault. Their background is no more maleficent than any of the bigger companies. Plus, every review of their watches I have seen talk about the high-quality that is exhibited in each watch.
I am strongly considering buying one, so I contacted them via email and got a return email on January 8, 2024 that spells out, in no uncertain terms, where all their parts come from in great detail.
The movement is Swiss, Selita, SW 200-1 , and think of one to say that certain parts are sourced from Asia, but the actual watch itself is built in their workshop, the United States.
For those people who continue to bring up Ginault’s past, show me the court case that finds them guilty of anything, and then we can talk. You can’t fault someone for producing their own quality product and asking a fair price for it.
Again, it was a pleasure listening to you today!

[@watchartsci]

Ken, check this out: www.scottishwatches.co.uk/2019/07/04/news-a-horological-detective-story-ginault-and-the-curious-case-of-the-counterfeit-rolex-watch-factory/ . Take care, bill

[@elund408]

someone asked about Shinola, they advertise american made with Swiss movement. dig deeper and it is a Swiss designed Chinese made movement

[@watchartsci]

Yikes Eric! Is 'Swiss Copied' more accurate? Take care, Bill

[@ForbinColossus]

Shinola robbed all of us who want to buy American. They marketed like their audience is suckers who react without thinking. Shinola name was lifted from a classic SHOE POLISH brand. How is any of this desirable? It's bait for teenage boys wearing plastic bracelets listening to auto-tune hip hop.

[@GS-vb3zn]

That’s the real fraud in the watch industry. Ginault is just a high quality homage/clone of the sub. And DAMN it’s an amazing watch for the price.

[@koolpep]

The article was such an interesting read. I can see how some counterfeiters eventually become homage companies or doing their own thing after “mastering” the art of copying and “casing” watches....

[@watchartsci]

Ralf, that's exactly what I was thinking too. It's a small step from 'homage' to 'counterfeit.' Kindest regards, Bill

[@diegoog3654]

*L'affaire
" L' " when the word starts with a vowel, and ending in "e" when the word is feminine.

[@watchartsci]

Thank you Diego! L'affaire sounds so much more intriguing and sinister! Cheers, Bill

[@diegoog3654]

@@watchartsci my pleasure sir.

[@timothythomas1626]

Actually Weiss Talks about all the companies Top Names who use other movements. AP Does it . Now with huge conglomerates owning multiple brands. They can take Movements from one of their companies and use them in other brands.

[@watchartsci]

I've seen Weiss watches. I think they use aluminum in their Cal 1003, no? Nothing wrong with using aluminum plates and bridges in a Unitas/ETA 6497, and they're not badly priced. Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@ihabkahnung]

Interesting discussion, i was to lazy to attend, party the day before and i am way to told for that crap. Anyway, I was watching a disassembly/assembly vid of a 3135 and immediately thought if there were a more delicate way to execute the hacking mechanism. I mean shoving a piece of metal against the balance wheel seems quite crude to my little engineer inside. Any ideas?

[@watchartsci]

I agree NoIdea! That's so crude, but it's the standard a second stop. Patek Philippe's engineers told their CEO years ago that hacking wasn't good for their watches, and that's why PP does not have hacking on its watches...nor does FP Journe. Two of my favorite brands, though, Lang & Heyne and Rolf Lang Dresden have that hacking with the 'stage coach wheel brake' ... I keep thinking there's got to be a better way... Kindest regards, Bill

[@ihabkahnung]

@@watchartsci Same thought here, and surely there is a way... a nice clutch in the power train, more on the slow side maybe. we will do it and get the GDaniels treatment where noone wants to buy it :)

[@watchartsci]

Did you notice the hacking on the Longines in the review of Berlin's collection? It waits until the second hand reaches 12 to stop the second hand. That sounds like a possibility. Thanks, Bill

[@SuperBullyone]

Thank you for doing the Ginault watch review Bill.Ginault now uses the S200 Selitta Swiss movement for their new Ocean Rover II. Basically, the S200 (Sellita SW200-1 (or CAL7275 by request), 5 positions 6-week regulated). I am not sure the new Ocean Rover is worth $1,500. It is pronounced Gin-no. Steinhart's 1954 Rolex copy is nice. Steinhart watches are the Panzer tank of Rolex copies. They are clunky.
\

[@watchartsci]

John, what is the S2 Selitta? Is it based on an ETA or an original Selitta design? Thanks, Bill

[@SuperBullyone]

@@watchartsci Sellita SW200-1 (or CAL7275 by request), 5 positions 6-week regulated

[@robertporchia9389]

Just finished watching the post...great reference with the inverted Jenny... keep bring relevant topics up...

[@watchartsci]

Robert, in tomorrow's collection review, the inverted Jenny reference will become clear...I hope! Cheers, Bill

[@4034miguel]

Beautiful F.P. Journe! Thanks for the video.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Miguel, thanks for participating! Kindest regards, Bill

[@timothythomas1626]

Clone meaning you can use the same dial case and hands that the eta movement uses. Example I want to buy a watch for the case and dial and don't like the Seagull? Movement And would Like to install and ETA That I could use the same hands ,Dial and feet .

[@watchartsci]

Tim, I don't think that's a clone. A lot of very different movements have been arranged so that they'll fit into the case of a popular ETA movement. For example, the Seiko 4L is Seiko's first attempt at a high horology movement (that was also used in the Swiss-built Soprod A10) but they were sure that all of the posts were in the right place for and the width was the same as an ETA 2892A2. Not a clone at all. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@GEMINICT]

Bremont uses Selitta movement - must be one of the most expensive cases of using a Selitta movement.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Richard, I like Bremont designs and cases! You might find this interesting: ruclips.net/video/V3NUuSBpn50/видео.html Kindest regards, Bill

[@abajaj1510]

There is no Ginault.....that’s the issue....it’s the same dude who ran Rolex replicas out of Gggiiiinaaa....and that is very illegal....

[@watchartsci]

So ginault.com is just a front for the company making illegal counterfeit Rolexes. No wonder the Ginault watches look so much like Rolexes. Thanks A Bajaj! Bill

[@watchartsci]

@@tomasinacovell4293 ... who doesn't care about what? I understand what you mean when you mention Rolex not caring (not good customer service) but I'm not following the rest... Thanks, Bill

[@rpjii9771]

Hey Bill, I hope all’s well👊
Love the lid👌🏼!!
Stay well my Friend🍻
Richard

[@watchartsci]

It's been killer hot lately Richard, and that's the coolest hat I've got. Cheers, Bill

[@rpjii9771]

WatchArtSci
Ditto, and the humidity reeeally sucks💦 I’ve got most of the Orvis hats and their straw hats are superb, especially the Panama(Walnut Creek), however my fave for style, water and rain protection along with the air flow for coolness is the Tillie Airflo hat. Good stuff!
m.orvis.com/category/Hats?adv=584368&cm_mmc=Orvisbrand-_-Tm-x-clothing-us-exact-_-Tm-x-clothing-headwear-hats-x-x-_-orvis%20hats&gclid=Cj0KCQjwjYHpBRC4ARIsAI-3GkG3yLZgY-aMOE_vcD_l-ulRVOzsVXWXct8X4dGA5qxZfxWiVzMkDpEaAtYaEALw_wcB
All the Best,
Richard

[@watchartsci]

I've got two of the Orvis 'bug-proof hats' and several of their 'bug bandanas'- for my straw lid-Tommy Bahamas.

[@markphillips2072]

Ginault a brand I'm fairly familiar with as fair as quality they offer a great watch there regulated an been reviewed alot over the past couple years an not alot bad said about them an considered one of the better homage watches. 1300.00 to 1500.00 hundred is the watches prices that from what I've seen an heard people that owned them love them .

[@watchartsci]

Hey Mark, it's guilt by association with the counterfeiters. Take care, Bill

[@markphillips2072]

@@watchartsci yes I guess I'll need to look into that I'm in the Ginault Facebook Group an I'm sure your video will come up . Cheers 😉

[@watchartsci]

Mark, I'd be interested in what the Ginault group has to say; not so much about my video, but rather have they found anything new? Thanks, Bill

[@markphillips2072]

@@watchartsci Just Blue Fish just posted a video of this also an guess his feelings were that all this is based on one article an we need more information he also was a fan of the brand an did alot of reviews of the brand and how well they were made .

[@watchartsci]

Check out www.swissinfo.ch/eng/counterfeit-watchmakers-sent-to-jail/7016492 about the Affair Jaquet. Jaquet used his company to make excellent counterfeit copies of Rolexes ... so it's not a matter of how good the copies were; it's the stealing of the brand's identity that upset people. I got emails from both side of the 'Affair Ginault' and would not take an anonymous investigation nor the claim that Ginault makes good watches with Swiss movement (Sellita). I know Rolex owners don't exactly have warm and fuzzy feelings toward 'their brand,' but counterfeiting Rolexes to make up for the shortage has no validity in business nor the law. Take care, Bill

[@vvvhhhhhbb]

For all the people who are comparing what Ginault has done, to the other top watchmakers, there is no comparison. We're not talking about specifying a specific Movement, we are talking about being in bed with fraudulent production. A fake replica Rolex watch is fraud. Using another movement is not! Simple as.

[@watchartsci]

Hey NW at Night ... not quite as simple... There's no problem (in my book anyway) with a watch company (like IWC) using a third party or other movement-maker's ébauche or the whole movement. What is deceptive (like IWC) is to give those movements names that imply they are brand-manufactured. Keep in mind that a 'little deception' is different from 'a lot of deception' only in degree. As watch collectors, why in the world should be roll over to ANY deception? Ginault's association with a company making fake Rolexes-and especially good fakes from what I understand- is not a good thing for Ginault, even though there's no deception or fraud in terms of Ginault watches. We let the camel's nose under the tent for one kind of deception, we're open to all kinds of deception. I have no idea why some collectors think that's somehow, 'ok.' Take care, Bill

[@vvvhhhhhbb]

@@watchartsci I agree Bill, as long as the Company doesn't try to "fool" you, there is nothing wrong with it. IWC, is not pretending to be something they are not. Using another movement is fine, it's the fraud that bothers me. I own many watches, my Breitling GMT has a modified ETA. They are not trying to replicate another brand. And you pay for what your get. The replicas out there have the potential to cost someone 1000s of dollars. Someone is may just be getting into this world we love. And that poor unsuspecting soul, has lost a lot of money and now is disenfranchised with the Horology world.

[@watchartsci]

@@vvvhhhhhbb I really hate it when a watch collector gets taken either by an out-and-out fraud (counterfeit Rolex) or deception (Cartier .... they're even deceptive about some great movements in their watches...let alone the eTAs and Sellitas...) We work hard for our money [and a lot of it for watches!], and we should expect total transparency and honesty. Really don't like being treated like a clueless chump. Take care, Bill

[@h111551]

RGM still uses renovated Hamilton movements in some of its watches and they look glorious.

[@watchartsci]

I like the Hamilton 921Howard. Look at the three bridges to the left of the balance wheel. ( www.rgmwatches.com/watches#/model-222rr/ ) Makes assembly / disassembly much easier. I found one on Ebay for $250 ... tempted! Cheers, Bill

[@timothythomas1626]

Companies Buy ETA Movments and slap their own Name on it. Like if I made a Watch and install an ETA I could call it the Caliber Tim Movement. It is like they are trying to Fool The Watch People. But they Can't fool Real Watch People. Only Novices which really don't care anyway.

[@watchartsci]

You ought to join us at FB Page, 'Pretentious Watchmakers.' We buy different movements, add a dial and hands, put them in cases, add straps and call it a day. However, you may not be pretentious enough for our group ... we'd name your watch company, "Montres Timothée." Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@cwbeas]

Name of watch(es) mentioned @ 14:07?? TIA

[@watchartsci]

Chase I believe it is the 'Roger Dubuis Sympathie.' Here are some available: www.chrono24.com/rogerdubuis/sympathie--mod1647.htm?man=rogerdubuis&modelId=1647&showpage=&sortorder=1 Cheers, Bill

[@timothythomas1626]

Look at Weiss on Pod Cast . He Has a Pod Cast Picked up By Crown & Caliber. Weiss Lies Small Second Sub Dials on All His Watches. He Worked for AP Out of Watch School. Listen to the Pos Cast He tells his story.

[@watchartsci]

Tim, I'm sure Weiss has a good story for his watches ... so does Patek Philippe ... 'You never own a Patek, you just keep it for the next generation.' No offense, but we at La Société des Horlogers Prétentieux have heard stories and make up even more flamboyant ones... and have more fun. Take care and stay safe, Bill😷

[@KarimDeLakarim]

I just paid £525 to service my Oris big crown pointer date that was £400 when i bought it 22 years ago,it was working till very recently.I have no idea whats in it doesn't say anywhere on the watch it's self that i can see it has a glass back and a gold looking rotor they now have red one's great looking dial thoo, mercedes hands and small second's i'm thinking it's eiether ETA or SELLITA.eiether way it has lasted a long time I think it will pretty much be working long after i'm gone.

[@watchartsci]

After all those years Pope ... sounds not too unreasonable. Cheers, Bill

[@frankdux6930]

1500 for a re badged ripoff crossbred roller sub. Glad I didnt fall for it.

[@watchartsci]

Ok Ron, you're safe now! Cheers, Bill

[@southnc63]

You do know about the infamous "in-house" movement incident with Bremont. That caused quite a media storm.

[@watchartsci]

Yes, SouthNC ... Roger Smith had that famous 'open letter' to them about that. I've hoped they have a movement of their own ... but no luck so far. Here's the video interview I did with Nick English: ruclips.net/video/V3NUuSBpn50/видео.html Cheers, Bill

[@marceauratard6869]

What did ginault do?

[@rpjii9771]

Marceau Ratard
Hey Marceau, I hope all’s well😊
Bottom line, it is a company owned by one of the most successful fakey Rolly producers in the world and if you interested in the deeper story, there are a few great articles in the FB groups.
Bottom line, through some forensic IT work, which is what we started using in the LE scheme to, though its come Incredible leaps since I was involved however it’s admissible in court and is second to only DNA for sinking a defendant, and though LC(the Chinese owner and individual that everyone is referring to) has tried to distance himself with multiple names, physical addresses, IP addresses, they was some forensic work done that lead everything back to this LC clown.
Long story short, Ginaults are basically rebranded fakey Rolly subs.
Stay well Brother👊
RP

[@marceauratard6869]

@@rpjii9771 well that's shitty, their homages were on the expensive side.

[@markuskrst]

Super Video! Hast mich um ehrlich zu sein echt
dazu gebracht ebenfalls Kampfsport Videos im deutschen raum zu machen 💯 Wenn du Zeit hast wäre Deine Meinung
zu meinem neuen Video echt killer 🙏🏾💪🏾

[@watchartsci]

Schick mir den Link zu deinem Video und ich schaue es mir an. Finden Sie einige andere, die auch Deutsch sprechen. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Bill