Timestamp time! Once again, they're about 10 seconds behind Boba Fett Snipes: 9 0:00:10 - Futurama is coming back (ughhhh) 0:02:39 - Metal is dead 🙁 -EPISODE 4- 0:06:37 - The discussion starts/Stanwick Pididly/Heimerdinger talking about Progress Day (and there’s a reason for it) 0:11:50 - Discussion on worldbuilding/“What the hell is the Hexgates anyways?”/“This is broken because it’s been 7 years and by now Noxus should have invade” (*screams in political science*)/Repercussions for Pitlover society?/Not enough a contrast?/ 0:22:43 - How Rian Johnson described Looper 0:25:01 - Time has passed (6-7 years)/Jayce brought scholars to Piltover and re-engaged interests in the arts and science/Heimerdinger is a char...char...Karen/Cute mechanical butterfly/We see Jayce and Caitlyn/Someone is missing 0:29:50 - Her mom would do anything to keep her from seeing the real world - also foreshadowing for...debate to come/Some hoverboarders and Silco’s goons/The hoverboarders don’t want to kill people?/Silco has a deal to sell Shimmer/Party poopers 0:34:55 - The hoverboarders’ goals it crush all the Shimmer/Two go below deck but something creepy is going on/A familiar monkey drawing/6 grenades?/“Hi”/Is she cool? Is she Jared Leto Joker (No.)? 0:41:09 - Jinx knocks out several people and dodges the crystals by the leader/Man who seems to have bat features/The leader and the subordinate are desperately trying to get the job done/Drop the flare/Nail polish detail 0:44:23 - It's Vi! (But not)/Jinx’s flashbacks vs Boba Fett’s/Using the other arm?/Gorgeous but the fire should’ve fucked up the legs/Jinx shoots the pink haired girl in the back/The leader is sad/Expressions on gatling gun 0:51:24 - How the gatling gun works/They’re locked into these types of the weapons/Boosted strength?/Facial expressions/Jinx isn’t just “omg I’m so totally quirky uwu” 0:57:23 - Silco says “honka honka” 0:57:41 - Jinx’s expression towards Sevika/Sevika has a chip on her shoulder/Viktor is popping in a big screw with runes but he’s not looking to well🙁/The changes in Viktor/ 1:01:45 - When Sevika grunts, her under arm lights up/Hexcrystals are now Hexgemstones/Rags is racist towards poor people/The hexgemstones can power portable devices like the Atlas gauntlets and the Hexclaw/The gauntlets flashy design vs the functional-looking hexclaw/The naivety of the characters/Heimerdinger should have been more upset/ 1:09:28 - This demonstrates how much progress they made but Heimerdinger thinks they need to slow down/Heimerdinger’s character/Heimerdinger is correct because these devices are clearly not ready/I grew up surrounded by science/Heimerdinger shuts them down 1:11:42 - Back to the airship and Caitlyn investigates/The top hat agenda/One of the goons is hiding/Marcus shows up/The last drop and contrast between episode 1 and 4 1:19:23 - Enter Silco’s office where Sevika is angry about Jinx/“Who’s ‘we’?”/Silco starts talking about the state of Zaun/He’s got stuff that has been drawn on by Jinx (So cute!) 1:22:51 - Ughhhhhhhhhhh (Silco and Jinx’s relationship is romantic? The answer is no)/Doomer thinks it’s not clear/Two adults hugging and touching?/Doomer is 85-90% sure that Silco kisses Jinx on the lips 1:29:45 - Jinx and Silco conversation/Party with Mel/Elora says that Mel’s mother would be proud and her response is “would she?”/Meaningful moment of Mel looking at the smaller version of the city/Heimerdinger and Mel represent two different perspectives 1:35:28 - An important Jinx scene/We see her lair/Mylo’s shot/Jinx’s insecurities with feeling like she’s weak/The dolls of Mylo and Claggor/Silco’s parenting/The individual frames of Jinx’s mental illness/But Progress Day’s coming up!/“Man is it convenient that there was something to steal.” 1:40:29 - Viktor is coughing🙁/Jayce offers that Viktor comes up with him but Vik is very uncomfortable with this side meanwhile Jayce thrives in it./Some girl smiles at Viktor/Legendary shot/Personalities/The face of progress 1:43:51 - The conflict of this scene: What’s going to be in Jayce’s speech/Jayce heeds Heimerdinger’s warning/However Viktor was excited to reveal it and Mel is disappointed/Viktor doesn’t want the spotlight yet he wants to go on with the projects that the crowd would like and the Jayce is the one getting the spotlight but he decides against it/The perspectives of everyone in this conflict/Viktor’s motivation/The egos of both of them/Viktor - shock, Mel - confused, Heimerdinger - Angry to settled 1:49:34 - Heimerdinger contradicts himself?/Is it a let down for the crowd?/Heimerdinger says to reveal something and then he says don’t (Doomer’s wrong.)/Is there a way to reveal the technology without saying “we’re going to deploy it tomorrow”?/Jayce’s great showmanship/It’s Blizcon/From Jayce’s pov it’s much safer (relatable to the panel) 1:56:47 - What is the cost of Jayce revealing the hexgemstone?/Jayce only had a day/Heimerdinger thinks we can’t deploy this technology, we need more time to develop it. That doesn’t even imply that it shouldn’t be revealed just not deployed./No Man’s Sky/Cyberpunk 2077/Deadlines and the expectations that it creates/Large games are always announced years before their release?/Years? 1-4 vs 10/What happens when don’t announce projects?/Are they still talking about this?/ESAD 2:05:49 - Caitlyn outside/Fire!/Horrendous plot armor vs terrible visual communication/ 2:14:55 - Caitlyn spots Jinx but passes out/Jinx steals notes and the hexgemstone/The council decide that the undercity could use the hexgemstone for weaponry/Jayce says that they should suspend everything to do with hextech for safety/7 years and still has a kid's toy/Is plot armor a convince or a hole?/The councilors appeal to Piltover’s status thanks the to the hexgates, the self-interest they all have the goods but Heimerdinger is blown away but Jayce’s selflessness 2:18:33 - Why shutdown the hexgates?/The enemy could study it and they could leave the city/They don’t know it’s the undercity/Silco is desperate for those hexgates/Shut down the hexgates to stop it from gettitng out 2:23:03 - Cool shot/Alternative, Mel suggests that Jayce (Not Jay, dear god) become a councilor/Heimerdinger is the reason Jayce gets this position 2:24:45 - Jinx is listening to ‘Get Jinxed’/They show: sparking up something, a mechanical butterfly, blueprint/Silco is outraged and Jinx is chill (I love it)/Jinx should write ‘damaged’ on her forehead/Jinx shows Silco what she has/She did it 2:29:55 - Jayce visits an injured Caitlyn on the case/Jayce brings her flowers when Caitlyn knows flowers. She surrounded by flowers/“Jayce I don’t appreciate these flowers, for I have many and I am very focused on this case that is important to me.” (I’m counting this a Boba snipe)/Jayce tries to fix the scene so he tries to give her a ceremonial position but that is the exact wrong thing to give to her/What does being an enforcer involve?/Caitlyn accepts the position/Caitlyn decides it’s worth it to interview the man in Stillwater/The goon has had his jaw broken by none other than Vi!/MauLer kinda forgot about Vi/Don’t punch brick walls 2:38:31 - Overall thoughts on Episode 4
-EPISODE 5- 2:40:33 - Discussion of Episode 5 begins/Great character building scene for Caitlyn/This scene is pretty/Target competition between Caitlyn and Grayson (it’s weird)/Sad that Grayson is dead/“Why do you shoot?” 2:46:30 - Vi and Caitlyn are talking to each other/Vi and Caitlyn have preconceived notions about others/Caitlyn decides to get Vi out of prison/We try to talk about penis man but it’s time for the debate... 2:48:13 - The scene is the convenient that Caitlyn is able to meet Vi and that they cooperate with each other/What motivation does Caitlyn have to talk to her?/Compared to Silence of the Lambs/Vi’s reaction to the drawings/She already knows that Vi lied about knowing the guy and Vi reveals that everyone works for Silco/They aren’t hostile or antagonistic to each other? 2:51:55 - Fringy: What should Caitlyn should have done? Doomer: Leave/It’s not her only lead?/Why should you make the assumption that the person beat them up knows anything?/What’s the reason not talk to them?/Doomer is a classist/They do trust each other? 2:54:12 - It's very convenient that it’s Vi/It’s convenient that Caitlyn decides to go talk to the person who beat up Tattoo man/From Caitlyn’s POV there’s no reason to believe is going to help solve the case/She certainly has other things to do/It’s also convenient that person just so happens to be the one person in the universe that can help her solve that case/Marcus would actually be the best person to help solve this case/Just randomly bumping into Vi (??????) 2:59:51 - From Caitlyn’s POV there isn’t a reason that this person is going to be useful or this person will help you/Caitlyn is skeptical/There are lots of other things that can happen/If Vi didn’t say anything, Caitlyn would have to do something else/Vi wants to get out because she’s a way to get to Powder 3:01:46 - Do you think that Vi thinks there’s a reasonable shot to get her out of prison? (As long as there’s a one percent chance)/If she’s trying to get out of prison, then why would she insult her?/Doomer assumed that there was no chance that she was going to get out of prison (Doomer, she said ‘I could get this information but not from a cell’)/There’s no contradiction between viciously attacking her and trying to get her to free you? 3:04:04 - “We’re going into a prison to talk to someone who was thrown into a maximum confinement, had the key thrown away, beat the fucking shit out of someone. I tried to talk to this person and now they’re fucking screaming at me that they fucking hate enforcers.” (Doomer’s insane)/Aw, she insulted me, Imma leave/Vi is emotional and hate enforcers (also she’s a woman)/Not caving on anything?/There are very good reasons to not do what they do and it happens anyway/When Doomer was younger/They have very strong reasons to not trust her 3:08:21 - Theo breaks down the scene/Vi uses reverse psychology/Caitlyn was gone until she got a lead unprompted-Is that convenient?/Caitlyn trusts Vi? 3:10:37 - Doomer: I’ve argued 6 different positions on why this doesn’t make sense-Theo: They’re all wrong Doomer: You’re free to think that Theo: No, I’m right, you’re wrong. 3:10:49 - “It makes complete sense for Caitlyn to trust this person.”/Fringy: You’ve said that she trusts her and then when we say she doesn’t, you say that’s wrong./There are different levels of trust/Run the risk that Vi isn’t going to cooperative/Understatement that it’s a risk/Police talk to people who can unreliable/The problem isn’t talking to someone, the problem is letting them out 3:14:14 - Vi is a dangerous person and Caitlyn has a lot of reason to not be around her/It’s weird that Caitlyn talks to Vi/Caitlyn WAS going to leave/Why would Caitlyn think that talking to Vi in the first place help solve a grand conspiracy/You could just randomly talk to everyone in the prison/Risk factor of letting Vi out 3:20:01 - Caitlyn is not risk adverse/Caitlyn believes she can handle herself/Logic is subjective?/The sky is made of jelly/Should Caitlyn ask Vi any more questions before she lets her out?/I’ve become so numb 3:23:42 - Moving on!/Marcus scene where they respect the enforcers who died/Marcus brings his daughter to Grayson’s grave/Marcus then goes to Silco to confront him/Silco suggest that Marcus just blames the firelights/Marcus is not a penis man/Marcus’s role as sheriff was given to him because of Silco 3:28:20 - To Viktor and Jayce to the science room/Jayce is going to root out the corruption/“With all due respect, you’ve only been in office for a day” “TWO DAYS!” (I love my boy Jayce)/Jayce’s power as doubled/Viktor coughs and blood comes out🙁 3:30:35 - Jinx scene!/She’s created a device thanks to the notes/She explains to “Mylo” and “Claggor” what she’s going to do and causes an explosion/This causes flashback (This vs Boba Fett)/Claggor’s face appears on the doll/She sees the monkey device and the boys’ deaths/“No! It was a mistake! It was a mistake!”/Quite realistic/She still has the bunny (and the flare!)/ 3:36:55 - Vi has a quick discussion but it’s too risky to take the conventional way/It’s dumb that Vi assumes Cait can keep up/The scene wants you to think she’s just behind her but that’s not logistically possible/Duncan has appeared/Vi says she wants to lay low/Silco’s eye change/Piltover has made all this progress but structurally the undercity hasn’t changed a bit 3:42:04 - Vi's tattoo (Objective cringe) 3:42:58 - Some things try to rob Vi and she shuts them down/Oldman and the tram/Cait lands exactly where Vi is/Das isn’t paying attention 3:46:53 - Viktor is fiddling with the hexcore/“Are you sure this is safe?” “No.”/Introduction to the best character ever-Jericho/Someone superchatted that they helped animated (that’s really good-excellent work!)/Vi gets some food and Cait is annoyed/Best boy tells them to go to the brothel 3:51:35 - Politics time!/Jayce is becoming less popular so Mel gives him advise/Mel is like Frank Underwood except she’s a good person/Theorizing that Mel was LeBlanc (spelling?)/Jayce’s conversation with Amara gives him a chance to turn it around/Amara has a shockingly young (and hot???) voice/He’s making alliances meanwhile Heimerdinger is enjoying the show/Not enough politics scene/The violinist is modeled after Ray Chen who did the violin work for “What Could Have Been” 3:58:10 - Jinx goes back to the hang out room/She steps on the plate with Mylo’s face/Looks at the leader board/Jinx shoots a crow🙁/To deal with what’s happened to her, Jinx has to see killing as not a big deal (Really great Jay point)/Jinx starts up the machine/The scratches around her say “Vi”/Silco Critic/Shot appreciation/Jimx’s complex feelings about Vi/The fight/Jinx spins (neat trick) and it lines up with Vi/Jinx finishes second/She’s dealing with a bit 4:07:07 - Scene transition to the Last Drop/It has security/“That looks like a place with bodies in the basement” (CAITLYN!) 4:08:29 - The girls enter the brothel and Doomer thinks it’s the worst scene in the show/The scene doesn’t need to be here and the characters are acting OOC 4:11:11 - This scene isn’t necessary at all/It presents contradictory information: “How exactly do you prepose we go about this?”/Vi wants Caitlyn to leave/Vi could have left Caitlyn/“You expect everyone to give you what you want.”-Justified?/Caitlyn gets the answers she wants?/People tend to get what she wants?/Most people give what they think she wants/She wants to be an enforcer so she gets to be one./It’s not an observation it’s a stereotype 4:19:50 - It could be cut-when she speaks to the owner, it establishes that Silco didn’t just walk in and everyone bent the knee/This is the beginning of the romantic relationship of Vi and Cait/This is how she figures out where Sevika is/Sevika could just be at The Last Drop/The scene accomplishes something but it’s not necssary-but it has to be done in a different way 4:42:37 - Another best scene (but it's not about Jinx)/Bloodied coin/Silco provides “evidence” that the firelights are behind everything/“Do you imagine yourself a hero?”/Then Marcus pulls the pin/Not really tho/ 4:27:50 - Jinx is sad/Silco says that he needs her to weaponize the hextech 4:29:20 - Jayce and Mel do the sex meanwhile Viktor does the hex/“The Meradas usually take from the world.”/Sigma grind set/The woman hints at Viktor but she’s shut down🙁 4:31:24 - Silco and Jinx scene (no lips are kissed)/Jinx is bored of this speech/“A weak man dies.”/Jinx is perfect/He investing in her the same way he want would have wanted someone else to invest in him/He gives her a lot of validation 4:33:07 - Imagine Dragons cameo/The song stops and cuts to Viktor in the hospital and then comes back/The POV of Marcus/We see the kids that they fought (possibly)/Evidence that the undercity has gone to shit/ 4:38:18 - Vi took a knee to Sevika’s face/FIGHT!/Sevika has her own life 4:41:46 - Fringy Tangent 4:43:56 - The Marcus picture/The camera spins with Vi/Vi smashes Sevika through a wall/“Where’s Powder?! Where’s he keeping her?!”/Vi loosens her grip and Sevika gets a stab in her stomach/“She’s like his daughter.”/Caitlyn get over here now!/“Help me up, cupcake.”/Maybe we’ll see more cupcakes! Who knows?😊/Sevika bloodily gets into Silco’s office and informs him that Vi is alive meanwhile Jinx figures out the hexgemstone 4:50:08 - Poe: Somehow Palaptine returned | Silco: FROM THE DEAD?! 4:50:55 - Finishing episode 5. Next week, they’ll totally do four.
The EFAP writers have really stepped up their game this season. Doomer was joking that he was about to leave the stream after the Jinx/Silco kiss thing and Mauler was like "It's okay, you've got plenty of opportunities to be wrong in future too." So much foreshadowing in one sentence!
Obligatory Doomer rebuttal. Sad no one called out Doomer on his strange assumption that Vi having no record of her incarceration is somehow indicative of her being some Hannibal Style supervillain. The logical assumption of such a violation of the legal system is evidence of high level corruption within the Enforcers, which is exactly what Vi said was the case. So it only adds to her credibility, not detract.
I’m not sure it’s in caitlyn’s character to automatically assume corruption with Vi not having a record. At this point of the story, she still believes that the corruption doesn’t run as deep. I also don’t agree with doomer that the assumption should be that this person is insanely dangerous. I think made the most logical decision (both for her character and the situation) to go and ask the prisoner.
Yes a great point. There's so much stacking up against his argument I can't for the life of me believe he actually believes his statements. I suspect he's going after Caitlyn and Vi for other reasons. I could be way off, I know. But he was so roundly proven to be faulty in his reasoning, and yet he persisted as if they had said nothing to disprove his point. That tells me his conclusions are based on some emotional need or emotional reaction, not the product of any amount of reasoning.
It's a lead to follow and even if lying, Vi and her records being nonexistent both hints at least towards something, each the same thing, or not... Just saying Doomer was bad fair as fawk when arguing that Vi being a ghost in the books was anything close to a superior reason to ignore her, rather than investing a bit of time into her claims.
@@MistbornTaylor You know what, you're right, Caitlyn would not assume corruption, but simply a clerical error. She would not under any circumstances assume that no reccord = supervillain. In fact supervillains would have MORE reccords to ensure they are kept where they are.
@@janehrahan5116 She would also be far more inclined to believe that, at the very least, this prison is heavily corrupt once the warden casually asks her if she wants the prisoner is beaten up in a way that implies that this behavior is commonplace amongst the visitors and guards of the prison.
DoomerMedia: “I’ve argued like six different positions on why this doesn’t make sense-“ Theo: “And they’re all wrong!” Bless you, Theo, that really amused me. I heard so much exasperation in that response.
Yeah, I don't understand. It's literally how to tell every detective story EVER! You need the lead, you inspect incidents, you get help from a con you don't fully trust because he is the only lead you got, you keep a close eye on him, he betrays you half-way through.
And many leads do end in dead ends until you find the right one. That's the nature of investigation. In this case, it was a good lead to follow that she initially gave up on until Vi called her back. Because, as with the other scene that he didn't understand, Caitlyn didn't manipulate Vi into cooperating. Vi manipulated Caitlyn.
The Enforcers that tell off Caitlyn do not hesitate to run into a fire when they hear a chilled crying for help while Caitlyn is getting an extinguisher. The writers make even the antagonistic Enforcers noble and heroic in a critical moment.
I really appreciated Doomer during the Arcane Part 1, but the fiasco over the Vi/Caitlyn prison scene was hard to listen to. The denial of factual events, the constant repetition and restatement of previously defeated points, the emotional aggression after being challenged like cornered animal… can’t blame the rest of the guests and crew for getting frustrated. Honestly surprised that something like this happened with this round of guests.
@@keto3883 He conceded on his points multiple times, when it looked like it allow him to make another point and roll past the previous. Whenever Mauler or Fringy would attempt to clarify that he had conceded anything, he would defensively roll it back and deny that he had. I believe most of the stuttering and repetition was Doomer feeling as if he was right, stalling for more ways to say the same thing a different way since he had nothing left. It wasn’t until he started yelling over them about how he was right and they were the ones holding up the conversation, that I became upset. I was relatively indifferent to the discussion, because it was a big nothing burger.
I found him to be very inarticulate, which made it a pain to listen to even when he said stuff I agreed with, it being just the part when he said that Caitlyn should've and maybe would've asked more questions and at least tried to make any assurances before deciding to free Vi.
I still can’t believe Doomer was so resistant to the idea that Caitlyn (or nearly anyone else for that matter) would be interested in speaking to the person who attacked her only lead hours after being in prison. Nor how adamant he was that Caitlyn trusted Vi even though they were clearly antagonistic towards each other all the way up to the end of that episode. “From Caitlyn’s perspective…” :/
Yeah wouldn’t it tell you some fuckery is happening within justice system that someone is just there that appears to have a grudge against a mob boss you suspecting exists?
As I said on the unlisted: Mad respect for the chad Enforcers who were instantly ran into a burning building when they are heard a scream for help as if it is the most natural thing ever. What legends.
Cool to show that the Enforcers are also human. Depicted as monsters in the first scene of the series, teasing Caitlyn and despite that they didnt resitated to go into danger to save some one.
@@TheRedGauntlet Yes, it is really good to see that the show is absolutly fair with everyone and not go down the ACAB route. + It is show that even the uppercity is not a monolitchis class who rule the poor but it is dividie as well.
@@Dantarn In a sense, I agree with them, if Vi can "save" Powder the world can avoid a lot of suffering. The problem that Powder are already dead and this is a fact that Vi couldn't understand. The conflict really is that Jinx want to be loved by Vi, but not as Powder but as Jinx.
The Events: --> Markus arrests Vi, having her placed in Stillwater prison to "save" her life. --> The Fireflies gain knowledge of a smuggling ship transporting Shimmer belonging to Silco and decide to attack it. --> Jinx is aboard this vessel and begins slaughtering the Fireflies but suffers a mental breakdown at the sight of one of the Fireflies that looks like her sister, Vi, and fails to stop them from burning the Shimmer, in a panic, she begins to fire indiscriminately, accidentally striking a friendly. --> Caitlyn discreetly enters the crime scene, she isn't supposed to be at, and discovers a series of clues pointing to a Shimmer smuggling ring, a strange symbol marked into the door and a wounded criminal hiding below deck who mentions that he was shoot by a crazy woman who he can't name because "they'll" kill him. --> Caitlyn is discovered and is punished by being given an additional shift of guard duty. --> The wounded criminal is taken to Stillwater prison, where he is immediately beaten within an inch of his life by Vi. --> Jinx, desiring to prove herself to Silco after her failure to protect the Shimmer ship, decides to attack Piltover on progress day, believing there might be valuable technologies to steal (which is a reasonable presumption given the details we are told about progress day). --> Jinx sets up a booby trap to lure the enforces away from the building they are guarding and distract reinforcements; she brands this booby trap with her symbol. --> Caitlyn is working her additional shift when the attack happens and goes to secure a fire extinguisher while the other enforcers approach the burning tent and hear the sound of a little girl, so they rush inside. --> Caitlyn successfully extinguishes the flame just before the bombs detonate allowing her to see Jinx's symbol tagged into the building before it is destroyed and manages to get a brief sight of Jinx before she enters the building as she is losing consciousness. --> The council of Piltover is informed of the resources that have been stolen and promote Jayce into a position aboard the council in an effort to defend Hex-Tech. --> Caitlyn's near-death shock scares her powerful parents into pressuring the sheriff into firing Caitlyn. --> Jayce warns Caitlyn about her parent's actions in an attempt to offer her a job. --> Desperate to put the pieces together before she is retired, she travels to Stillwater prison, hoping to collect additional information from the criminal who was wounded from friendly fire. --> Caitlyn learns the inmate was beaten severally upon his arrival and will be unable to be interviewed for months (months she doesn't have), hoping the beating was related to the case and that she would be able to acquire some information out of the violent prisoner --> Vi, having been repeatedly beaten by enforcers in the past and having just broken the rules, expects to be beaten again and misinterprets Caitlyn as a corrupt enforcer and her questions as taunting. --> Receiving no information from Vi, Caitlyn decides to leave, however at the last moment Vi say's "Give Silco a kiss on that winning eye of his" unprompted. --> Caitlyn is aware that Silco is a suspect, sensing that Vi has an un-favorable opinion of Silco, she returns and asks Vi for more information about the symbol Jinx made. --> Vi has an immediate reaction to the symbol, but Caitlyn demands her question be answered first, and asks if Silco runs the undercity --> Vi responds yes, but is bewildered by the question, asking how anyone couldn't know that (which, alongside the willingness to cross the redline and show evidence to her, was a sign she wasn't taunting her). --> Caitlyn asks if she could prove her statement, and Vi say's "not from in here," Caitlyn is reasonable skeptical of such a claim and asks for a reason why she would trust someone like Vi. --> Vi is dismayed, that her chance to find Jinx has been denied and insults Caitlyn some more. --> Caitlyn begins to leave, but before she's gone, Vi says the undercity would eat her alive. --> The majority of clues Caitlyn could investigate are in the undercity, she has a limited amount of time before she is fired and afterward she will be unable to talk to Vi or the other prisoner. --> Vi seems to be an enemy of Silco, knows the undercity better than Caitlyn, and is a strong, powerful person capable of defending both herself and Caitlyn --> Seeing her options are limited she forges a document with Jayce's signature to free Vi in the hopes she can help her take down Silco. Doomer: Sounds like a coincidence.
@@araara7429 The funny thing is I didn't even address the brothel scene removal idea, which would have not only damaged Vi's character (by making her willing to risk innocent people's lives), but also, ironically, would add significantly more coincidence if the Vi/Sevika fight played out the same way.
Another layer of his shit take is remember how there was a comment about “how convenient it is that there was something for Jinx to steal on PROGRESS DAY” and Doomer groaned at it? It’s pretty funny considering his take on prison scene.
Something that I hadn’t noticed until last week was that the scene in episode two where Vander brings Vi to the bridge, parallels the bapitsm scene. In episode 2, Vander is taking Vi to the place where he became a changed man. He realized that his actions causes the death of hundreds and that he can’t allow that to happen anymore. So he took responsibility and adopted Vi and Powder. Then in episode 5, Silco shows Jinx where he became a changed man where he realized that he cannot trust people. So he took his life into his own hands and fought back. Both scenes are fathers passing down their life lessons to their daughters. They are heavily impactful to both girls. Vi makes the decision to take the fall for Powder and Jinx gets the confidence to try to figure out the hexgemstone.
Vander's and Silco's paralells are really good, all of them. It is a really cool cyclical structure they are maked for the two character and for Jinx and Vi as well.
Episode 3 also had a paralel they didn't notice: when Vander was choking Silco he had one eye bloodied and closed, just like Silco did the first time they were in that situation.
Doomermedia: It doesn't make sense that Caitlyn and Vi just trust each other. Also Doomermedia: It makes no sense that Vi just sets Caitlyn up with some random and lies to her to go get the info on her own. It's because she doesn't trust her!! Like man, do you litterally need the two of them to say out loud they don't trust each other?
After re-listening to the tism part, I think Doomer misses the part where the "convenient" part was set up. It would seem convenient if that episode was the episode where you started watching after skipping the prior ones. It's like looking at a chess match where one opponent is one move away from saying check-mate and thinking that it's so convenient that the entire board is set up in a way that allows him to check mate that other guy.
He wanted to put it in his video, to b1tch about something, something potent, to "counter-balance" his praises towards the show. It being wrong as fawk, illegitimate as a valid point, and a mega-cringe take..? Nah, if you listen to him, he didn't wanna hear none of that, no matter what number he gave. Seeing the show once would be enough and to double-check would've busted his ba1ls, so until EFAP, he did anything *but* verify his sh1t. No offense meant, but he literally told a lie, or made stuff up in his script, despite being able to check at any point before this stream. Disgusting lack of professionalism.
@@amanibob1416 "Disgusting lack of professionalism." The guy may be wrong about a show but he's talking in a rather casual setting, it's not like he's paid 20 bucks an hour to fully analyze the plot.
1:24:00 Jinx trauma has her emotionally stunted, a huge part of her personality cant move past the 9 year old girl who killed her family, this is why they keep displaying the ghosts of Milo and Clagger. This is also why shes often way more childish than she should be at her age. In her head shes still that girl. If you watch all the Silco and Jinx scenes again but picture Powder instead of Jinx there is absolutely nothing weird going on. Its a 9 year old girl hugging her father, curling up on his lap, playing around with stuff on his desk, there is nothing unusual or strange about a 9 year old girl doing this. What MAKES it weird for us as viewers is that WE know shes not 9 anymore, shes a young adult 16 or 17 years old and this behavior from a 17 year old girl could be kinda strange. The writers did this intentionally, its meant to make you uncomfortable but no, there is 100% not anything sexual going on. Its strictly a Father/Daughter relationship.
@@Hollyclown Indeed a bit convenient that he would just HAPPEN TO lead them on a painful. And I'm not to big on the writing either. Doomer was way out of character.
@@Hollyclown A little TOO convenient. Doesn't seem a bit too convenient that Doomer just HAPPENS to be on the panel, and he just HAPPENS to think the prison scene is convenient? And then he just doesn't let it go. Why doesn't he let it go? The EFAP character actions just don't make sense!
@Ivan Vancheskov crying about necroposting, a term more suited to LIFO messageboards, on a platform that algorithmicly encourages views of older popular content and algorithmically placed your comment near the top suggests you own judgment is rather lacking. Either way, we are both generating interaction for efap so carry on
What? Are they going to explode or something? Oh no, they'll have to do more parts, waaaah! Welcome to EFAP. Tangents are fine and correcting and trying to explain to Doomer why he's wrong shouldn't be frowned upon. That's the whole point of EFAP. The problem with it was Doomers refusal to admit he's wrong. Absolutely nothing wrong with the rest of the cast trying to explain it to him. Edit: The length of the stream is not my issue. Thanks for taking a single sentence out of my comment and making it the only point you respond to. It has now been removed so my actual point remains.
He isn't categorically wrong he is just really bad at dancing around his objections. His objections have merit. However, as no one is supporting him, he is just trying to move along
@@williemerilson3112 No one is supporting him precisely because he is objectively wrong. It is not “convenience” that leads Caitlyn to speak to Vi in prison, nor is it convenient that Caitlyn visited the prison to speak to an inmate she has already met that might have info she can use.
@@Rokumasu853 Agreed. Moreover, Vi does not show up on any prison records, which is extremely suspicious and speaks to a rather high-level coverup. Releasing such a person and waiting for the fallout is an excellent strategy to get to the bottom of a supposed massive conspiracy that rules all crime in the underworld.
@@liamhogan4369 I doubt she was looking that far ahead. She was clearly suspicious about VI’s prison status, I agree with that. Even then I doubt she would have risked her career or the safety or Piltover if she had any other lead to follow. It’s combination of her instincts that there’s more going on, and her desperation brought on by a lack of options, that lead her to take that risk. Also, Caitlyn is very competent and confident in her abilities. If anything did go awry, she likely trusts herself to be able to handle it.
@@wwyd4akb What's his Chapelle take? My take is that he is dodgy. He seems to have a personal life that is enriched with spirituality, for instance becoming a Muslim and then for his career he espouses and advertises leftist, liberal politics for Western society. He disparages the trans mob, but its not for them complaining about the 'privilege hierarchy' but rather, if you pay attention, his real gripe with them is that they think they are above black people on that hierarchy. He seeks to correct that, and that alone. Invariably he goes on to disparage and attack white people as per usual. He wants America to be a multicultural melting pot where he can make his millions, but he wants Africa/the Middle East (where he has been on Hajj) to be a place where he can express his 'roots' and religiosity.
@@Fudz4 to vastly oversimplify Doomers video on it, but still catch enough of the meaning I hope, Dave Chapelles the closer went too far in causing offense. Doomer had a self-conscious fat friend that he'd joke around with about everything, except fatness, and once his friend wasnt fat they joked about that too. Somehow this translates to not acknowledging with the innate absurdity of trans-ness and only being able to respect someones beliefs on it and not in any way challenge them or joke about it, or do anything but validate their unexamined thoughts. Yes I'm biased, and probably in someway misrepresenting/remembering but if something is socially unmockable thats likely something that needs mocking, and even if not no one should be fired or cancelled for jokes or trying to be funny, or in the worse case saying something deliberatly offensive.
Doomer:”It makes no sense that cait would work with someone she can’t trust, especially since she’s been established to take risks and this prisoner could be of great use to her, as well as the fact that she seems to share her interests. Why would she do that when her alternative is a dead end?”
Everything about this comment and this reply section is convenient, including my existence and the fact that I also have incentive to reply to this comment as well. And don’t even get my started on how convenient it is that this video exists too.
I can't stop picturing rags stretching his little doggo neck out his window, over half the U.S. mainland, all the way across the Atlantic Ocean, snaking through the streets of whatever city MauLer lives in, in through his window, then casually up to him and giving him a cut little peck on the lips. Then he moves back and looks MauLer dead in the eyes and says, "I only love you because you're convenient."
Sometimes it feels like doomer is looking for "flaws" and "convenience" where there is none just to dunk on the show for some brownie points. Some of the tangents in efap are entertaining and others are just draining and serve no purpose, the entire vi interrogation tangent was the latter.
Well said. It’s one thing if his tangent could be proven but it’s clear that he was blinded by his bias and as a result his tangent took time away from actually discussing the show. It was tough to sit through.
It took time away from other scenes, like they had to rush quite a bit near the end. I would've´ really liked for them to talk more about the baptism scene between Silco and Jinx, such as how they look at each other or how gentle Silco is with her. Like there are so many things to talk about! That's why I'm officially done with the Doom Squad. Friendship ended with Dommer, now S-class is my best friend
I can understand how you could initially interpret that scene with Jinx sitting in Silco's lap as romantic but the show makes it pretty clear in every scene afterwards that it's just a father/daughter thing. The fact that Doomer so confidently believed they kissed on the lips seems like a bit of a self report but idk
I would agree their first scene together on my first watch through made me think what is going on between these two. Afterwards though it is insanely clearly communicated that there is no romance between them.
@@lukew6725 Thats a huge thing to misremember. If that actually happened, it would honestly ruin Silco's character for me because that would make him a groomer and a predator. It's not some small insignificant plot point
@@lukew6725 Bro it's one thing if you misremember it's another when you try to argue with 10 other people when they say you're wrong and say you're "90%" sure
Part of what made Jayce back off his reveal was the fact that Mel already had outside investors lined up for it, which he wasn't expecting. Also, Caitlyn is looking for a head conspirator in the under city, but Marcus is actively gaslighting her. When Vi suggests that Silco is a conspirator behind most crime in the undercity, that is a HUGE motivator for Caitlyn to get info from her, both as a guide, and AWAY from the prison, so Vi can speak more freely. Caitlyn knows that she's about to be fired by Marcus. She is working on a deadline. This is likely her only chance to speak with Vi, and even if she can find a way to return, the guards' disregard for Vi's wellbeing means it's a risk that she could die before Caitlyn gets that chance... especially if her mysterious conspirator gets wind of her investigation. It is now or never.
Not just about to be fired by Marcus, she has already been actively fired which is why Jayce offers her the security position. So she’s got even more reason to do it because now this will prove her worth and be put back on the force.
Arcane is one of those rare series where the side characters are just as realized as our main ones. Markus was a character I didn’t appreciate enough on my first viewing but as I paid more attention to him his story is so well done, and dare I say tragic. The guilt he feels for the death of Grayson, his inner conflict that he deals with trying to balance his duty of being an enforcer (a sheriff no less) and his ties with Silco. Even though he wants to do the right thing, he’s already in way too deep. It was just tragic seeing him so powerless to do anything. And it’s all punctuated by the end of his story. Fantastic stuff. And that’s not even including all the other great side characters like Savika, Vander, Ekko, Hiemerdinger, etc. Theres so much that can be discussed and it’s incredible that Arcane managed to pull it off. (Also special mention for the CHAD JERICHO. What a legend.)
Holy shit I just got to Doomer decides to debate police talking to criminals is something that no officer would ever do whatsoever, especially if they got their feelings hurt, because they could be lying, and/or dangerous (you know as opposed to the non dangerous violent criminals), like wtf is this garbage?! Police don’t care if someone is lying or not or think someone will lie, their jobs aren’t to decide who will and won’t talk and then try and go from there, police will question EVERYONE, regardless if they think they’re being lied to or not, police get insulted ALL THE TIME and still deal with people of interests in cases, it’s part of the job, police deal with dangerous violent criminals ALL THE TIME. Also, this HORRIBLE crock of shit argument of, “oh, I dislike police, but when I get pulled over, I try and do my best to be a good noodle,” there’s flaws all over in that shit argument. One, people who dislike police also give police a hard time too and aren’t afraid of the repercussions when they’re pulled over, so for every one of the people who try and be respectful towards cops, there’s someone who will be out there who doesn’t care about being disrespectful. Two, when an officer pulls you over for speeding, you can make your life a lot worse by popping off on a cop, giving them shit, and being belligerent, you still have things to lose, Vi has NOTHING to lose, she’s at rock bottom, she’s a lifer in prison, anything she gains from helping an enforcer is only a bonus to where she is, but if she doesn’t, it’s right back to the shit hole she’s been living in, her life doesn’t get worse than where it already is, so she doesn’t give a fuck about talking shit to a cop. She’s also an institutionalized young girl who was raised by a crime lord, being afraid of the police wasn’t something she was raised with, hating them is something she was raised with and not to mention they killed her parents, so obviously she’s gonna hate them. Also, lastly, let’s stop and figure out what the fuck, “convenient” means before we open our mouths, imagine, I’m a cop investigating something and my person of interest was just sent to jail, GREAT I don’t have to track him down, I can just go and pull him aside in a room and have questioning done, I get there and find my person of interest who was BARELY through processing and booking has just been violently assaulted, beaten half to death, and he was attack completely unprovoked, now if I’m a good cop, I have to figure out one thing, WHY was this guy who just got here and just eating, attacked so viciously he’s barely alive? And attacked by one person and no one else in the jail attacked this guy. That’s not, “establishing dominance” kind of attack, that’s a personal, emotional, hatefully driven kind of attack that I need to know why was it provoked, whether I get none, any, or all information, I have to do my due diligence on this one. Also, police use criminals all the time in sting operations to get bigger criminals and in exchange for lighter/shorter sentence, and even outright immunity. And constantly bringing up why would Caitlyn work with Vi considering that Vi is a dangerous criminal, idk if he knows the about the law enforcement profession, but dealing with dangerous criminals……………..KIND OF PART OF THE JOB DESCRIPTION!!! Also, it was made CLEAR that Vi and Caitlyn didn’t trust each other, whatever happened to show don’t tell?! Also, Caitlyn doesn’t trust Vi, but police are forced ALL THE TIME to have cooperation with a criminal. There are levels to trust, and they were at the cooperative level, not, “I trust you with my life the love of my life” level, they don’t exactly have each other listed as their emergency contacts on their paperwork 😆😂 Also, holy shit what a dick move trying to throw Theo under the bus saying Theo tried to bring up that point.
"Cops will question EVERYBODY" *Me: just walking past a 2 car crash i didn't see but got questioned for 5 minutes anyways* Yeah, Doomer's take for this was pretty tismic.
To be fair, Doomer is correct in saying that the Brothel scene is superfluous. Without that scene, Vi gets the note/info at the restaurant and then we cut to the fight with Sevika, so you would simply infer that note contains the location of Sevika. The brothel informant is thus an unnecessary middleman. The brothel scene tells us that Cait is probably a lesbian and sets up a romance, both of which can be inferred from other scenes. The line from Vi that Cait needs to give people what they want also doesn't inform any of Cait's later actions. Also, if the note contains the name of the contact in the brothel that Vi talks to, this scene implies that Cait never asked to read the note, making her seem like a bit gullible/stupid, which is out of character for her. The line that people resisted Silco after Vander's death can also be inferred just because of how much episodes 1-3 established just how loyal people were to Vander and his goals. ...I'm not touching the tism argument about the prison scene with a 10 foot pole though.
@@ryanhaley6395 Without the Brothel scene Vi won't know where Sevika is. We won't have any established info that people tried to fight back against Silco. Vi and Caitlyn relationship would have a jarring starts. And no Caitlyn is not out of character here. She doesn't know the undercity at all and she's established to be quite naive as the show presents several times. Thus without the brothel scene more coincidences would be created as MANY people have already said in the comments and Reddit. Also you saying "You can simply infer" just proves my point and everyone else's point even more that without it it would create more confusion. There NEEDS to be established context as to how Vi knows where Sevika is. It's that simple. Without this scene it creates problems. Also it isn't shown that the note has Sevikas location. It's only shown that it has a symbol. So no, you cannot make such an inference when it has already been shown as to what is on the note. No, you and Doomer are wrong here as everyone who payed attention to the show agree on. Which is most people. Including the other 6 on the panel.
@@helenline1790 I'm sorry, but if it's jarring for Vi to know the location of Sevika based on a symbol on a note, then it would also be just as jarring for her to know the location of the middleman contact based on that same symbol. In both cases, the note is telling Vi where to go next by telling us the location of another character. We as the audience have no clue as to what that note means, only Vi is supposed to know, its meaning is given to us contextually through the next scene. With the brothel scene, we infer the note leads us to the contact in the brothel. Without it, we infer the note leads us to Sevika directly. And you can argue that the brothel scene makes the Vi and Cait relationship less jarring, but I find that it makes it more jarring tbh. With the brothel scene included, Vi just starts coming on to Cait suddenly. With it removed, Vi only starts showing affection after Cait saves her life, which is when Vi realizes her preconceptions of Cait may have been wrong. And yes, the show is *filled* with tons of things where it expects the audience to make reasonable inferences, because it respects its audience enough to do so. For example, show me the line where Silco directly tells Jinx that he loves her, I'll wait. It would be silly to think that Silco came into power without resistance, especially since our first scene with Jinx involves people (presumably from Zaun) attacking Silco's men to prevent the shipment of glimmer. We didn't need the brothel scene for that. It's also silly to think that Caitlyn needed to be told that she had to give people things to expect a favor in return when *she released Vi in exchange for her services only a few scenes ago*. That line from Vi doesn't inform some change of Cait's character that happens over the course of the season, it is unnecessary other than to reaffirm Vi's opinion of Cait, which was already crystal clear by this point. I don't even completely hate the brothel scene, but it is undoubtedly extraneous. But yes, keep on suggesting I didn't watch or pay attention to the show.
@@ryanhaley6395 She knows where Sevika is because the Yordle lady told her. Not because of the symbol on the note. The note leads her to a place of information, it tells her where the brothel is and by extension she talks to the owner being the Yordle lady. Vi also says "this is where all the secrets are spilled" it's also told to us that Sevika is a recurring patron of the Brothel which is why the Yordle lady knows where she hangs out. This how I know you didn't pay attention. Vi has no way of knowing where Sevika is unless she finds out. It's that simple. The note leads her to the brothel being a place she knows about and recognises, where she can ask somebody. Having Vi just stumble on a random alley way in a place full of alley ways where she just happens to find where Sevika is purely based off of a symbol would be very contrived and stupid. Instead the brothel scene has it happen naturally where Vi knows what place the symbol connects to. The symbol points to the brothel not a person. She asks the owner in the brothel and by extension gets information. It's ridiculous that the symbol could actually lead to a fucking person lmao. And it doesn't. The symbol leads to a PLACE, not a person. Sevika could be anywhere, it's not guaranteed she's at the brothel. The owner of the Brothel being the Yorlde lady, points her in the right direction. Cait isn't used to the undercity and Vi needs to show her how things work as there's no way she's be used to it after such a short time. It would be silly to think Silco got power without resistance? How exactly? Because I've seen criticisms from people who didn't pay attention asking how Silco just took over without any resistance. So no telling the audience this is ABSOLUTELY vital. Silco says to Jinx that he's his daughter and he would never forsake her. He also kisses her on the head when her life is in danger. He also says "I'm doing this for us Jinx". Yet another example proving you don't pay attention. Sorry but you and Doomer are wrong. There's no way you aren't. As soon as you said the symbol can lead to a person I just knew your arguments would be as dumb as Doomer's. When it's literally demonstrated that the symbol leads to a place, not a person.
@@helenline1790 ~~Concerning the note~~ Okay, let me try to explain this one more time. The show, as presented, has Vi get the note. The note tells Vi the name of either the brothel (and Vi has a friend there) or the name of the contact specifically. That middleman then tells us where Sevika is. I watched the show, I didn't miss this. We, the audience, cannot interpret the information on the note, we *infer*/derive that information based on where Vi goes next, because we inherently understand she is going to immediately act on the information she is given. In a hypothetical cut of Arcane where we skip the Brothel scene and go from the restaurant scene to the Sevika fight, the audience instead simply infers that the note tells Vi where Sevika likes to hang out. To put it another way, I could remove the brothel scene, show it to a naive viewer, and they would never know that there was a missing scene unless I told them. That's how you know the scene is superfluous. Yes, it means that Vi doesn't interact with her friend at the brothel, but **this does not affect the story in any way whatsoever**. Long story short, literally the only reason you think the note leads to the brothel is because the brothel scene exists. Since this reason doesn't exist if the brothel scene doesn't exist, we can remove the brothel scene without any continuity errors. ~~Concerning Silco and the resistance~~ Isn't the FIRST Jinx scene post-time skip literally one in which Silco and Co. is facing resistance from people who are clearly from Zaun? People are STILL resisting Silco. When Vi mentions at the brothel that nobody fought against Silco, I reasonably conclude that she is not aware of the existence of Ekko's group yet. In fact, I'm not 100% clear if Cait put it all together after investigating the airship crime scene (she knows somebody fought Silco's goons, but she probably doesn't know who), or if she would trust Vi enough to let her in on what she found there. ~~Concerning Jinx and Silco~~ Since you missed what I was trying to say, let me be more direct. You use contextual clues to derive that Silco loves Jinx. HE NEVER ACTUALLY SAYS IT. Yes, the evidence is overwhelming to support the argument, but you are still making an inference based on that evidence. The whole reason I brought it up is because you scoffed at the idea that you could to infer that the note leads Vi to Sevika because you implied that inference is a symptom to poor storytelling, which is silly. Let me be absolutely clear, I'm not arguing that Silco doesn't love Jinx, as you seem to believe I am. So if you'd like to understand and counter my points instead of demeaning them, I'd appreciate it.
I think Vi getting her name tattoed on her face has to do with her refusal to give up her name and accept being called by her inmate number. Apparently that's not entirely uncommon for prisoners, to get a tattoo of their name as a symbol of defiance against being treated as a number.
just to add another nail on the coffin of doomer's argument about the brothel scene, the guy in the fox mask is the "local cuisine" that mel's mom was partaking with. i know that's a negligible small detail but doomer saying the brothel scene can be removed is ridiculous. also sevika was not in the last drop that time. another reason how going to investigate in the brothel yielded vi some result.
Yeah it’s like he thinks it’s better for Vi without Caitlin for some reason to just CONVENIENTLY stumble upon Sevika playing a card game in some shady back ally in the city that only has shady back allies. While also complaining about convenience of Vi and Caitlyn’s meeting in the prison.
One of the strangest things about Doomer’s positions is he assumes things that are not backed by the show at all. First, he assumes that Jayce and Viktor have other projects that they could showcase at Progress Day. If the duo had any other projects that they thought were ready, I’m fairly certain they would have provided that information to Heimerdinger unprompted. Second, is he assumes that Caitlyn has literally any other leads to go off of. If she did then why don’t we see her looking into them? Why is there no indication that Caitlyn has anything better to do then try to ask an uncooperative Silco goon for information? It’s almost like the show is saying that this Cait’s only lead.
You are assuming just as much as Doomer, so let me correct your sentence for you: "If the duo had any other projects that they thought were ready, I ASSUME they would have provided that information to Heimerdinger unprompted." I would assume so as well and I would argue the assumption is reasonable and its therefore not a problem. Its still an assumption though and Doomer challenged that assumption, which is the proper thing to do when you break things down. After you highlight a potential problem, you can procedd to figure out whether it detracts from the quality of the work. I personally think the answer is that it does not, in this case. "It’s almost like the show is saying that this Cait’s only lead." - This is false. The show clearly tells us there are other leads. Caitlyn is in possesion of a drawing that can blow the case wide open as soon as she shows it to ANYONE who recognize it and is willing to tell her about it (note that not only we know this but Cait tells Jayce she thinks this is so). She thinks its connected to the undercity so going there and asking people is a realistic lead to follow. You (and Mauler and the others) are making a false assumption that there are no other leads to follow. The correct argument to Doomers tism is simply: she is already there, she would have spent this time interviewing someone at the prison anyway, she might as well take 5 minutes to make sure this person who beat up her witness doesn't know anything and letting Vi out and bringing her along is probably not more risky than going to the undercity alone.
It’s weird how this show plays with your emotions, even though I was steadfast in Jinx being a morally reprehensible monster after killing all the people she has, when she regressed back into her Jinx persona after killing Silco I was genuinely sad… which is weird because I know what she’s done, but I was just so endeared to the character that seeing her choose to remain villainous was actually sad. It’s kinda like what Batwoman stans think Alice is, but actually executed well.
"Nothing is more undoing, that a daughter.". Silco. To me, this is really just two father/daughter stories. Vander and Vi, and Silco and Jinx. Both end the same, with a father sacrificing everything for his daughter.
@@aztaline5593 When? Because I'm near the end and they've just announced peace with Silco in exchange for independence and all we get is his word at the end of a gun that he wouldn't give her up.
@@Jack-uy7ie Did you not see the look he had when Jaice told him he had to give up Jinx? Or Silco immediately telling him she worked for him, that it was his crimes not hers. Also the scene in which Silco vents about his frustrations in front of a statue of Vander, and finally understands that Vander gave up his fight in order to protect his daughters just like he's about to do. Now your last point is just confusing. Silco was literally shot by Jinx, and was dying yet his last words where to tell her that he truly cared about her, that he would never betray her. How is that "his words at the end of a gun?"
@@aztaline5593 I saw it as a desperate struggle to turn her against her sister. Though he probably did love her but not like Vander. Vander gave up his dream for those he loves and Silco is on the precipice of giving up those he loves for his dream. Its a tale as old as time. Sacrifice the daughter to save the dream. Like Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to the Gods to achieve the dream of conquering Troy.
Don't know how much attention this will get but I've had a bit of an odd realization. I think I know where the idea for Violets tatoo came from. Her prisoner number is 516. Her tatoo is a play on the numbers. She has five one and 6 all in one tatoo while also managing to make it into a shortened version of her name. That's my theory anyway. Still not sure why she put it on her face though.
So, I feel we need to open a dictionary for Doomer. First, to show him what the definition of "Convenient" is, and second, to show him the word "Compromise," which is what people sometimes need to do when they don't trust each other like in Vi and Caitlin's case.
The thing is I think something can be both logical and convenient. Just because an event is convenient for characters to progress the plot, it doesn’t always mean the circumstances that caused said event are illogical. Even if it’s convenient, that does not make it inherently a bad thing. I think this plotline involving Vi and Cait follows cause and effect pretty well.
@@justincruz5720 This is not a good example of that. Yes something logical can be convenient. The droids in the escape pod not being blown up in the beginning of ANH is both logical (because they explain it) yet convenient (because it wouldn't be nonsensical for them to blow up the pod if explained well). But that's not the context I'm using the word logical in. Logical as in follows cause and effect. Something that is simple cause and effect is not convenient. Caitlin investigating this crime and meeting Vi is not convenient. Because that's the logical series of events. It would make sense for her to come across Vi. To use another star wars example, it's like saying "wow it's really convenient that Luke and Kenobi ran into Han Solo on tattooine." Like no, it's a common spot for smugglers and Han specifically works for Jabba. He was also on his way to pay/talk to him. Kenobi knew that the cantina was a good place to meet pilots who don't ask questions. Han desperately needs the money and Luke/Kenobi need a ride. It's not convenient because it's a natural progression of events. Its logical.
@@crazycanadian5592 I suppose that’s true. If there’s a legitimate reason why an event happens, a natural event should follow it and that is logic. However, if many things are left to chance and something works out because the story needs it to happen anyway, despite the odds, it is pretty convenient.
@@justincruz5720 yes, I've already said that. What happens with Vi and Caitlin is not left to chance or just because the plot needs it to happen. Caitlin finds Silco's wounded thug because she's investigating the scene. Marcus sends her away but she still wants to investigate because we know it's in Caitlins character to want to do good. She uses Jayce's position as councilor to get her into the prison so she can questions Silco's thug. She can't talk to the original thug because he's been badly beaten (Vi would definitely have a grudge against anyone working with Silco and beat him). She questions the person who beat him because the likelihood that it's related is high. When she questions Vi she learns that Silco is corrupt, Vi hates Silco's thugs, Vi has some knowledge of the symbol Caitlin shows her. Then Vi says Cailtin won't last in the undercity without her. Cailtin realizes this is true. With everything Vi seems to know plus Cailtin's own inexperience, Caitlin decides to take a risk and release Vi if it means she might be able to help. NONE of this is convenient. It's all completely natural progression. It's one of the furthest things from convenience.
These breakdowns have been so fun and often insightful. Love all the little details and moments I've missed even on a second watch. Can't wait for the rest!
The silco and jinx kiss doomer was talking about was when silco takes jinx to singed, but the kiss was not on the lips and most certainly had no romantic feelings behind it.
The debates with Doomer over the prison scene and the brothel scene feel pretty pointless. Like even if he was correct it would be quite insignificant for the story. The actual debates felt tedious too, like he wasn't properly acknowledging the other host's arguments. It's odd because he was just fine during part 1 and gave some good commentary
I won't be defending his points strongly...but I think the Efap crew were very hyperbolic ",your totally wrong, you HAVE to give this up" when it came to points which were subjective. Some people might consider it weird that caitlyn went and talk to the person who assaulted her witness or that she would trust vi enough to let her out. I really dislike how absolutist they were being on points that should have ended with a simple "I disagree".
@@ifonlyicouldstop Because Doomer insists that it's bad writing when it objectively isn't. People tried to argue with him on discord and it went about as well as it did in this EFAP.
@@ifonlyicouldstop Yeah I think it's worth discussing why Caitlyn acts that way at the prison but they went on for so long about it because of how Doomer argued his points.
@@ultimateblaze23 Dude the man was being unreasonable, and as a fan of the show, his points are just stupid. It's not about us fans being pissed that doomer would dare critique this show, mauler had some critiques about the minigun, or some enhanced movement, strength for example, and people agreed with him.
It's actually hilarious how almost every "argument" that's Doomer vs the rest of the gang is Doomer making categorically wrong statements, everyone making solid rebuttals to said statement, Doomer's only response to said rebuttals being a nervous laugh and an occasional "but I disagree" before not addressing the problems and sidestepping to another non-issue. He does it so many times that sometimes I wondered if my audio was broken because he debates without counter-arguments and falls into the same pattern over and over again. Not his finest moment.
Another comment about Doomer. So he is NOT ok with Vi and Caitlyn meeting in prison something that literally was set up from episode 3 and 4 and calls it “convenient”. But then he turns around and complains about a scene that sets up how Vi was able to track down Sevika playing in some shady back alley in the place where literally everywhere is a shady back alley and why Caitlyn was not with her. You can’t do that, you can’t complain about the convenience of scene that had been set up for an entire episode and then some to then say a scene should be cut and that they should’ve just stumbled into someone they are looking for in a goddamn city.
Doomer: Sure is CONVENIENT how people drink fluids when they're thirsty. Doomer- Arguing conveniences instead of cause and effect. Also wants to cut a scene that adds causes and would increase conveniences in the plot if absent. 🙃
3:06:00 imagine explaining 10 minutes what causation is and how well everything flows together and has naturally only one way to go and this guy is like a broken record "it's convenient" Pls don't invite people who are incapable of understanding simple concepts
It makes complete sense that Caitlyn would go see Vi, even without knowing that Vi has anything to do with her case. She came to the prison following a lead, her prisoner. The prisoner is incapacitated and can't be interrogated at this time because he got beat up. He got beat up by Vi because Vi hates his guts for being part of the group that caused Vander, Milo and Clagger's deaths and caused her to lose Powder. Caitlyn, without knowing any of that, will still want to interrogate Vi just to see, if BY CHANCE, she knows anything relevant to her case, that is how investigations work. Vi knows something about the prisoner she was going to interrogate, clearly, or she wouldn't have beat him up. Caitlyn goes to interrogate Vi. Vi, by association with Vander, knows a lot about what Silco is up to and is very motivated to bring him down because of what he's done to her. Caitlyn has reason not to believe Vi, but she is also out of options. She doesn't have time because she isn't even really an officer anymore and it's only a matter of time before that is a known fact, she can either take a chance with Vi right now, or do nothing and lose her chance forever. Caitlyn takes her chance.
@@UnluckyBones13 There's nothing coincidental about it Coincidental is when Rey and her gang of merry dumbasses happen to step in quicksand and sink below ground which just happens to lead them to the cave network they were looking for to find the object of their current search. This? This is all cause and effect. Everything happens for a reason that is shown in the show and it all works together like clockwork
A lot of people also forget that Caitlyn is FIRED she doesn’t have the luxury to regroup and think of other leads it’s either go with Vi or she goes to the under city alone or she turns in her badge. Since we know she won’t do option 3 so it’s either she goes alone into Sketch City or with this person that knows her way in said Sketch City.
@@arturzinurov4781 Yep, like I said she's out of options. She technically doesn't even have permission to be in Stillwater and definitely no authority to release Vi. But if she doesn't do it, she loses everything.
@@PatrixBest Caşt as a civilian gets a fuckin criminal from pirson and eveybody ok with that? Marcus doesnt say to Jayce U give your signature to a fuckn civilian and a criminal on the loose, Cait isn't your personal fuckn dedective, wait until council hears about this or cait's mom. Jayce didn't give order to Marcus like as soon as u see cait bring her right to me or something. Everybody is cool about all this. I'm pretty sure cait and vi go straight to jail after they go back to Pitover. They should start a search for them to arrestor something u know this is a serious matter since one of the council member's daughter is ther with a criminal. Also I would assume Vi is silco's inside man, u know when one of them captured she silenses them. Or Silco give order to Marcus just the man u captured maybe is silco that incompetent we know he is not.
I understood why doomer said what he said about the somewhat confusing aspect of Silco and Jinx's relationship because I was somewhat lost in the beginning on whether or not it was sexual or family based. But the prison discussion was weird to listen too. Doomer seemed like he was ignoring what everyone else was saying and just continuing on with his claims
Given Jinx's mental state it wouldn't surprise me if she had misplaced romantic feelings for Silco. I also think Silco as a fictional villan has more of a moral compas than Woody Allen and wouldn't date his adopted daughter.
Way late to this but on the part about Vi getting her name tattooed on her face, she's been imprisoned for years without reason, written off and left to rot, whatever reason Marcus trumped up locked away, most likely referred to by a prison number and nothing else, the tattoo could be some small way of reclaiming her identity, reaffirming it for herself
3:44:10 I think the tattoo of her name might be a constant reminder of who she is. Not having rewatched the prison scene, I think they refer to her as a prisoner number. She isn't called by her name. So, being that she believes over the years that she's never getting out of prison, she would want a constant and permanent reminder that she is Vi. That's her name and identity.
@@Snowflash38 she didn't lose powder tho, powder's still alive, that doesn't make any sense. she was sentenced to 6 years, it's a prison tat. it's her time served.
First the "Silco - Jinx - made up kiss", then the superfluous discussion about Jayce release schedule for Hextech and then the prison scene discussion. I love this show and listen to most episodes, but this doomer guy frustrated the hell out of me
@@albanmarku6743 We always listen to 2,3 Openions even though all o f them are preaise. BUT it gets really frustrating when the ''openion'' Is a lie every single time... Feels in bad faith. You dont agree with lies geez.
@@albanmarku6743 I feel bad because in part one where he said he was making a critique video on Arcane I was kind of intrigued, like he said Arcane is good enough that you don't have to treat it with kid gloves. But if this stream is a preview of what his criticism will look like then nevermind lol. I actually went into the stream thinking the prison scene was awkward too but listening to how tismy his arguments sounded when challenged totally changed my mind. Then he looks petty when he just spends the last 1-2 hours sitting in complete silence when everyone else is having fun. Doesn't this guy do political debates and shit regularly? You would think he could handle a disagreement without sulking like a 7 year old.
It could be frustrating how adamant he was and how long it drug out, while being proven wrong time and again, but I think it's valuable to have descension, however incorrect, because someone will have those bad takes and it should be addressed.
The prison scene and the brothel scene are connected in purpose. In prison Vi argues that Caitlyn doesn't know what she is doing. The motivation to get her released isn't that Vi knows about Silco's operations because that would be a logical leap too far with the info Caitlyn has at that point. Vi's gambit that Caitlyn acts on is that she has the perspective needed to get Caitlyn some answers. The brothel scene has Vi doing multiple tasks at once including paying off the gambit she made with Caitlyn ; telling her how to get the information she wants. Vi gets the info for her own goal at the brothel. Only later on is it clear to Caitlyn that Silco IS the mastermind she is looking for. To Caitlyn, at the point of the brothel scene, Silco is just a suspect that Vi knows of and blames. Caitlyn is not actively fishing for info about Silco from Vi but applying the new techniques Vi is teaching to get info out of people from the lanes.
Charles Dance on set of Dracula Untold, "I'm here to make your shit movie, a little bit better." Charles Dance on set of Ghostbusters 2016, "I can't make this shit movie better, but I will act the shit out of it."
One thing I feel is forgotten too during the Doomer debate is that Cait was NOT operating with the jurisdiction of the Enforcers on this case. The Sheriff made it clear she's not on this case. She's on her own right now, with her only support coming from Jayce. Combined with a big sense of urgency and a pinch of naivety, her actions make plenty of sense in this regard. Maybe not the BEST choices, but entirely logical given the situation.
Was doomer the guy who said on the previous stream that he loved the show and that because it was a great show that he was going to have really strong criticisms for it? Like he said "I think this show is great, and THAT'S WHY it deserves to NOT be treated with baby gloves" 😂😂😂 And this was him bringing out the grown up criticisms? Lmao
Doomer making allegations and failing to bolster them with any defense is one of the only things I will remember from this EFAP. Barely even an argument, then just laughs and says “Okay”. I like doomer a lot but holy fuck
Everything Doomer says is convenient for Caitlyn talking to Vi, applies to the thug too. The thug could lie, he's dangerous and she knows he worked for Silco so he'd have even less of a reason to tell the truth and already said he can't say. The thug is a bigger dead end and more useless to try and talk to.
vi breaks that guys' jaw and all the ace dedectives here say she must hate sirco so enemy of my enemy? Cait should immidieately assume that vi is sirco's inside man. U know when one of his man captured she silences them. Ofc cait should talk to vi but getting her out of jail is nonsense and out of question. Beside how the hell that idiot guard can make the decision to let vi go with cait?He says since when is he a councelor. He never heard of him being a councelor. Also shouldn't be a ceremoni or something for these things and after that he can give orders right? Like when pools annunced current president kicked out. And how the fuck Jayce as a member can do whatever he wants. Isn't there council voting for these kind of things? Jayce fucks up other council member's profits and they just don't say anything why? Jayce is one of the member not a fucking king to make a decision he wants, right? If so that city should be in a fucking chaos. Every council member doing whatever they want without other members' vote or knowledge? Also why Marcus said to Jayce u give an order to a civilian not an enforer u know she is no longer an enforcer, she is just your security personel not your personal dedective? and never brought up again. Other thing is cait's mom doesn't confront Jayce about this. She was against cait becoming an enforcer but she is ok that cait wonder of to undercity with a fuckn criminal? Another thing is what was Vi's crime? Marcus went to undercity with sheriff chick(I don't know her name) and some enforcers then Marcus went back with Vi and others killed. Imagine people seeing Marcus coming back with Vi and they ask him where are the others? Marcus is like the sheriff and others killed, I alone escaped with a criminal. So what is her crime? 1) If Marcus say she is just petty thief, then what is wrong with Marcus while the sheriff is killed he just pick up a lowly criminal on the street? 2) If Marcus says she is the one break into Jayce's house, then how the fuck Jayce let her go out? 3)If Marcus says she killed the sheriff then whole another mess we have. That time skip didn't explained. Another thing If getting someone out of prison this easy why didn't Silco asked Marcus get my man out of prison? Or Marcus u got one of my men just kill him, we know he doen't care about his men. In a sigle scene we have this much issues and people wanna justify this stupid scene. This scene gives us that system is more retarded than ever cause nothing explained and watever we interpret makes it worse. If this was a bad show efap would analyzed it to death but since they love it they don't care I guess? These are minor things so don't worry it!ll be fine.
Caitlyn doesn't even know about Silco yet since Marcus is covering for him. Vi is the first time Caitlyn learns that he might have something to do with this.
@@liamjm9278 ok look at gurads pov ok. Cait didnot even know whi inmate 516 was so she prepared that paper before meeting vi who she doesnt even know exist and its for vi? Also signed by the guy the guard doesnt know if he is a councelor or not. Oh everything is good cait u can take vi. Nothing makes sense here.
Woohoo, time for part two! A bit of silly criticisms brought up at the beginning. It's definitely not farfetched to believe they've refined teleporting in such a timeframe. Especially with the detail about the gear teleporting that was brought up, which I saw but didn't connect to that at first. And with Noxus invading, Noxus hasn't even really been established in the show by this point, and it may be much different from the Noxus we know in-game. Geopolitical issues aside, they might not be seen as a warring state or even a suspect of potential invasion. Moving on to the first scene with Jinx, I think it highlights the biggest issue I have with the show. At times, she's just able to move unbelievably fast or appear instantly when she wants to. In this case, being able to attach six grenades in an incredibly short span of time. In the grand scheme of Arcane, it's not so bad, but it did start to get annoying at times. I guess on the subject of Jinx, her characterization very much evoked Harley Quinn for me. It was only minorly cringey at times, and particularly only with some of her lines. Her trauma is portrayed well, and I really loved the distorted, scratchy visuals they used with her perspective and visions. And just like with other characters, her facial expressions are spot on and really show all the different emotions she's cycling through and her internal struggle. Overall it was well done, and I can't think of any instance I disliked when she was there. On a different subject, Caitlyn's plot armor was one of my few notes I took when watching. Although this may be due to the editing, as was discussed, because it really seems like she's the one that gets blown back in the large explosion shot. Hair aside, it doesn't semem to make sense to show her and then cut to a different character getting thrown back. But regardless, that explosion was big enough that she should've been killed or SEVERLY wounded. I really don't understand Doomer's argument againt Cait meeting up with Vi. Cait has a lead, then finds out that lead was assaulted. That could be something, may as well talk to whoever beat him up. Then, that person reacts very strongly to drawings found at the scene, which is a huge indicator that they may know something about the perpetrator. She can help with this investigation, so Cait takes a risk and gets Vi out of prison in hopes it will progress the case. This all seems to make perfect sense to me. Also, Cait is an enforcer so if Vi does try to escape or attack, she has plenty of power to send Vi straight back to her cell. I don't know, just sounds like a strange thing to argue so much against. I think that's enough paragraphs for this comment no one will read. I can easily see how three EFAPs covered this, there's an incredible amount to talk about. I shall leave it with the following comment: "You mean when he rails her raw?" - Jay
That's a logical fallacy. It's something like, an appeal to popularity. ie. *this* person is calling you out, you *must* be wrong. That broken, baby-brain thinking.
I wonder just how firm a grasp people have on the world-building of this show. The hex-gates are broken? Come on. That killed me. “Of course, there was something to steal.” How convenient. Silly Discord chat. 2:30:52 Priorities. 2:54:12 Oof. Doomer, what take is this? I really want to meet the animation team on this show. It really seems like they had fun making this, like it’s a passion project.
I kinda wish there were at least two more scenes added. One: The scene where Cait gets/forges the release documents. A lot could be put there about her being torn about it but taking desperate measures because she is running out of time. Two: Scene of them walking through the city, towards the elevator, where they can explore each other's motives and distrust. Basically, take some of the implicit stuff and make it more explicit.
@@za-ir5ni It's a Netflix series, they can literally add however many minutes they need, which, in fact, they did. Shortest episode has 39 minutes and longest has 44. As for a waste of time, it's one of the core relationship in this season and it seems it will be going into season 2, spending a bit more time with them would not hurt.
there is the 3rd one. A scene where we are explained what was Marcus's plan for Vi. Why did he went out of his way to hide Vi from Silco and even lie to him if all he was going to do is throw her in jail and throw away the key? There are some great theories out there that justify it BUT the show literally has nothing so we can never prove or disprove any of those theories
I was surprised this line wasn't brought up early in the prison discussion as a reason Caitlyn wanted to talk to Vi since Vi very presence in the prison is a curious irregularity for an investigator. "I took a look at your file, there's no record of you or your crimes. What are you here for?"
Meh this technically started with enforcers killing their parents and not being in her right mind and being manipulated down a criminal path ... So I can see why, the killing of the firelights has less of an excuse tbh
@@mertarican5456 Alice doesn't have as good a reason though, its on a scale. Reason for trauma yes but Alice has more of a choice later and its done worse in like every way, while Jinx was led to believe she only had one place to belong and killed her siblings by her own actions which affects someone way worse and more easily traumatizes. To be clear both aren't good people but literally everyone is a result of their environment and that need to be taken into account
@@cameronroy2129 what do you mean alice has a "good" reason show thinks it is SİSTERLY BOND lol show is idiot. Alice lived in 10 years of torture that can fuck some one up. AND İT DOESNT MATTER they are all evil.
Thanks to efap, and chat/guests initially, for recommending the show I watched the part 1 and then started the show then finished the show in one sitting did not expect that level of writing quality did not expect any feels from league of legends ffs now I'm here and ready to hate on Doomer!
4:40:25 Mauler: "is the big woman still here?" Also, I have to mention that I absolutely believe VI should get her ass handed to her here. Sevika is more experienced, has a cybernetic arm and is getting regular shots of shimmer to give her a boost during the fight. Very little about the scene changes if you have VI get her ass kicked here. You can have Sevika taunt her about Jinx, and still have Cat show up and save her. I think its a narrative miss because the rematch later on doesn't really hit as hard for me because OF COURSE VI is going to win when she comes back with gauntlets, she pretty much already beat Sevika without any enhancements.
@@NimmelTheGreat Did Sevika actually get an upgrade, or was it just another feature to her arm that she didn't use throughout the duration of the first fight? I can see what you mean by Sevika getting caught off guard, but idk man that arm really packs a punch. Like I said its not hard for me to believe Vi could beat that, its just that I think narratively it makes too much sense for her to get her ass kicked. Again, that way the rematch carries a little more weight.
Ah, the part where Doomer makes points ranging from reasonable-ish (Caitlyn wouldn't have released Vi, I can at least see a reasonable argument) to let's go with not quite so reasonable :D Although I was a bit annoyed with Fringy saying he was holding 2 positions, when what Doomer was doing was simply having problems with either option (I think it's a if/then statement). Do better my Australian comrade, do better!
I respect Doomer standing up for himself and not ragequitting. I respect him for being willing to have bad takes to an entire audience and a live panel. I respect him for making the effort to convey his points. Unfortunately that does not save him from the scorn I feel for him getting defensive rather than admit when he's wrong, for defending bad takes so ardently, and for being really bad at maintaining consistency in his points.
2:37:05 have you guys never heard of Muqy Thai? That's literally a thing in Muay Thai, kicking a tree with your shin to break the bone a little, and then it'll heal back stronger, and repeat. And yes, that does include punching brick Walls (to a degree). You know the ropes that Daredevil wears in S3? Those are Muay Thai ropes, and they will FUCK your hands UP, but that's what they're designed to do
We don’t know if Vi’s wearing Muay Thai ropes, and even if she is, a tree’s got more give to it than a solid brick wall. I think it would have been just as effective to have Vi shadow boxing, I don’t get why she was punching a solid brick wall with her bare hands.
People misinterpreting Jinx and Silco's relationship as sexual/romantic is more telling of those people than the show. It's based off two things, I reckon: 1) Plain ignorance of how unhealthy father/daughter (or mother/son) relationships work 2) Wishful thinking on the part of people who are interested in incest as a fetish We'll just dismiss #2 out of hand - you're always gonna get those people whenever something gets weird in a story. But I don't think people understand or WANT to understand that Silco & Jinx are a clear example of what happens when a father and daughter bond juuuuuust a little too closely. This is what Freud was getting at in his discussions on the topic: if you're not careful during a child's development, wires can be crossed and boundaries can be blurred. It doesn't outright mean a mother/son or father/daughter are having sex, or even WANT to have sex. It just means proper boundaries have not been established, because the relationship is borne out of trauma and/or manipulation or some other factor. Jinx is a sterling example of a "Daddy's Girl", a girl who can lean on her father for ANYTHING at any time, and Silco is the kind of father who will enable her worst qualities because he can't bear to punish her more than necessary, and he actually views her worst qualities as good qualities. Not to mention, their entire relationship rests on a lie that he's happy to keep buried under the surface. So the fact that Jinx and Silco are uncomfortably close is not emblematic of a romance, it's a perfect representation of what happens when a father figure and daughter figure become so closely attached they begin to cross some boundaries that most of us would otherwise find distasteful or gross. It's also worth noting that the writers/showrunners have said as much in interviews. They WANTED Jinx & Silco to make people a little uncomfortable.
Yes, thank you. However, I think it's way more telling when people think that Silco is a good father, even though the show is very clearly trying to say that their relationship, while genuine, is _extremely_ unhealthy. People can legitimately care for each other and their relationship still wind up being an utter fucking catastrophe. If anything, some of the very worst of toxic/ abusive relationships are built on two people who care very much for each other. Sometimes you have a situation where one or both of them are just mentally/ emotionally unwell, but sometimes you can get two people that just have personalities that cause them to bring out the worst in each other and themselves in a relationship. Like a chemical reaction, you might have two chemicals that are perfectly stable on their own but that will violently explode when they come into contact with each other. But in whatever way a relationship might be bad, it doesn't mean that all parties involved can't love each other. Love is powerful, but powerful does not necessarily equal good. Love can cause people to selflessly sacrifice themselves to save another, but it can also cause people to fly into a murderous rage and commit horrible acts of savagery. I think people who think that Jinx and Silco's relationship is a positive example of a father/ daughter relationship are completely forgetting or just do not understand this basic fact. Jinx and Silco _obviously_ love each other very, very much, but their relationship is a train wreck happening in slow motion and everyone except the two of them seem to notice this. Vi, obviously, sees how Silco's influence has warped Powder. Sevika and Silco's underlings all see how their relationship is clouding his judgement and causing him to make mistakes that ultimately wind up being fatal. And I think it's telling that Marcus, who is a decent example of someone who's ACTUALLY a good father, has his own daughter threatened by Silco so that Silco can protect HIS daughter. This is a perfect example of love driving someone to threaten to commit an act that they would 100% consider to be unspeakably evil if the tables were turned. We see Silco also not remotely giving a shit when the chembaron lady's son is killed, even though he completely lost his own shit when he was very nearly put in the same position an episode or two earlier. The fact that Silco is so callous about other people losing the very thing that he is so desperate to protect in his own life very clearly demonstrates that Silco is a horrible choice of person to raise... _anyone._
Some things that were lost on the Caitlyn in Stillwater scene. Cait goes to see Vi because there's a chance she might know the detainee, either by being an old acquaintance, rival, or someone from the group trying to shut him up. She trusts Vi might be a lead because she says all Cait needs to know why she doesn't trusts Enforcers, they work for Silco and routinely go there to rough her up, and when she tries to free her, the jailer asks if that's why she's there before reading the release papers. Also, she knows Vi is there with no documentation inferring she was put there through unlawful means, corroborating her claim about the corruption among the Enforcers. She's also hours away from being disbarred from the force forcing her to be quick about chasing that clue.
@@lordofthepizzapie9319 FOR the laughs yea but this felt like the Not so great debate guy overall because of the repeating and inabiity to accept thorough points. What a hill to die on
I don’t think Doomer would make a great cop. Oh no here is a homicide we should probably ask the neighbors if they heard anything “why? They would likely just lie to us and they don’t want to cooperate with us” Here is the note that talks about meeting someone at the docks in about an hour from now we should go here “idk sounds too convenient for me”
Jinx going completely over the top at times actually fits with her character. One of her biggest issues is her massive inferiority complex, this naturally leads to over-compensation. This was *WELL* established in ep1, 2 and 3. If you feel like nothing you do is really good enough youd either give up or purposely go completely all out. Powders huge co-dependency and desperation for acceptance wont allow her to give up leaving her with only one option. Maxing out. Add severe PTSD, probably a borderline diagnosis and the fact that they live in a world were death and pain lurks around every corner, a world that are essentially in a cold civil war, there is nothing anyone can say to me that will make me feel its not perfectly logical for her character to be like this. People complaining about this have never met a person with PTSD, this is an eerily accurate portrayal of some people I know. Sure, theyre not psycho killers, but the way their triggers and paranoia work and their tendency to over react etc is very similar. People who complain about this are people who have lived sheltered lives and never had a real problem. Anyone who had a rough life will recognize this behavior to some extent, either from living it or from knowing someone who has said issues.
Is there any reason why Caitlyn WOULDNT question the person who just beat the crap out of her best and only lead? At worst she learns nothing and at best she learns LITERALLY ANYTHING. Why would Vi be the only one to beat him up? Because he’s huge and imposing and he works for Silco, so anyone who would pick a fight with him has to be both extremely confident in their ability and unafraid of Silco, whether due to ignorance or bravado. Not a lot of people would fit both those criteria. Why would Caitlyn trust her? She barely does at all. She just knows that Vi knows more than she’s letting on, and Vi is her only other lead from there. Again, at worst she lets some nobody trencher escape and at best she learns LITERALLY ANYTHING.
I actually liked Doomer vi/cait part. Made me appreciate Arcane even more. Ye it was a little bit too long but you basically went through everything I would say if I were there talking with you and that just feels soo satysfing. Sometimes you guys miss some good arguments (mostly cause you prove a point with other) or details and i feel incomplete. For me this series could be 4h per episode.
Lil somethin somethin about explosions. It's the compression wave and the objects caught in the compression wave that tend to kill. Moving away from the source can have a huge effect on how much force the body must absorb from the wave. Also whatever debris if any that hits the body can be the determining factor of death. In many explosions, 2 people standing exactly next to each other, 1 died and the other survived without long term injuries. This is why scenarios are drawn up when setting up a weapons strike and possibilities of casualties are assessed. Even at the point of detonation, there is often a possibility of survival. But someone standing in say between 2 large windows 20 yards away have lower chances of survival as the shattering glass becomes shrapnel which becomes the cause of death.
I think Doomer had half an argument for Cat putting too much trust in Vi. The part that jumped out to me is when Vi dashed away down to the undercity. If i had just released someone who had been imprisoned for 5+ years i would be a lot more sus or even frantic if they immediately ran the fuck away. If Vi had wanted she could have just been free at that point and that’s enough to at least worry Caitlyn.
Missed this EFAP and now that I'm watching I really wish I could cut about an hour out of it half-way through. God damn Doomer, I know you didn't like getting nailed for the Jinx/Silco kiss thing (which was weird, creepy, and spoke volumes about where your mind was), but don't take it out on us by choosing to die on this molehill over Caitlyn releasing Vi from prison. There is nothing in this scene that does not follow with either the characters, the story, or the world. You appear to be conflating "convenience" with "cause and effect". Following the script isn't necessarily convenience if how you got there was logically consistent with the world and the characters. Two examples: A *contrivance* would be if Marcus just happened to be talking with the warden at the prison about Vi and Caitlyn overheard the whole thing while attempting to talk to the prisoner from the airship. A *convenience* would be Vi's records (if they existed
Here's the thing... even if Caitlyn was being shit-talked... Another important detail that they forget to mention is that Caitlyn asks the records of Vi, and nothing of a real criminal record is present for her, as she also gets into conflict with people there... which also goes with Caitlyn's sense of justice, that people who are not accused of a crime shouldn't be locked up or she just generally doesn't like women being beat us by men... and might've made it more apparent for her to release Vi because of those reasons...
which is odd because Vi was arrested for a crime. the robbery and bombing of Jayce's old lab. a crime the council was desperate to find a culprit for. people saw her fleeing. Jayce saw her at the scene. the manhunt that followed even resulted in the death of the former lead enforcer. she should be a well know terrorist. not a prisoner no one knows.
@@imp360 actually Vi was not arrested for the crimes of blowing up and stealing the lab. Silco made Marcus say they ran off with Vander never to be seen again, also Silco thinks she is dead as well. Marcus puts her in prison but does not list her crime because then Silco would be able to find out if they pinned the crime on someone.
@@PDD-co6yo Then who did they pinned these crimes? The council wouldn't give in on that matter but the time skip and nobody cares. Also Jayce after given the permision to study arcane he will release that some of the unstable arcane stones missing and he will ask them about the missing stones right? Let's just say Marcus didn't list Vi's crimes to do that only warden and himself know about Vi right? When Jayce signed documents for her release the criminal nobody knows about, shouldn't warden contact MArcus immidiately before releasing her? or Marcus should say if somebody asks about Vi immidiately inform me and I will be there right away. cuz realeasing Vi will fuck Marcus up. Marcus should be extra careful about this.
Timestamp time! Once again, they're about 10 seconds behind
Boba Fett Snipes: 9
0:00:10 - Futurama is coming back (ughhhh)
0:02:39 - Metal is dead 🙁
-EPISODE 4-
0:06:37 - The discussion starts/Stanwick Pididly/Heimerdinger talking about Progress Day (and there’s a reason for it)
0:11:50 - Discussion on worldbuilding/“What the hell is the Hexgates anyways?”/“This is broken because it’s been 7 years and by now Noxus should have invade” (*screams in political science*)/Repercussions for Pitlover society?/Not enough a contrast?/
0:22:43 - How Rian Johnson described Looper
0:25:01 - Time has passed (6-7 years)/Jayce brought scholars to Piltover and re-engaged interests in the arts and science/Heimerdinger is a char...char...Karen/Cute mechanical butterfly/We see Jayce and Caitlyn/Someone is missing
0:29:50 - Her mom would do anything to keep her from seeing the real world - also foreshadowing for...debate to come/Some hoverboarders and Silco’s goons/The hoverboarders don’t want to kill people?/Silco has a deal to sell Shimmer/Party poopers
0:34:55 - The hoverboarders’ goals it crush all the Shimmer/Two go below deck but something creepy is going on/A familiar monkey drawing/6 grenades?/“Hi”/Is she cool? Is she Jared Leto Joker (No.)?
0:41:09 - Jinx knocks out several people and dodges the crystals by the leader/Man who seems to have bat features/The leader and the subordinate are desperately trying to get the job done/Drop the flare/Nail polish detail
0:44:23 - It's Vi! (But not)/Jinx’s flashbacks vs Boba Fett’s/Using the other arm?/Gorgeous but the fire should’ve fucked up the legs/Jinx shoots the pink haired girl in the back/The leader is sad/Expressions on gatling gun
0:51:24 - How the gatling gun works/They’re locked into these types of the weapons/Boosted strength?/Facial expressions/Jinx isn’t just “omg I’m so totally quirky uwu”
0:57:23 - Silco says “honka honka”
0:57:41 - Jinx’s expression towards Sevika/Sevika has a chip on her shoulder/Viktor is popping in a big screw with runes but he’s not looking to well🙁/The changes in Viktor/
1:01:45 - When Sevika grunts, her under arm lights up/Hexcrystals are now Hexgemstones/Rags is racist towards poor people/The hexgemstones can power portable devices like the Atlas gauntlets and the Hexclaw/The gauntlets flashy design vs the functional-looking hexclaw/The naivety of the characters/Heimerdinger should have been more upset/
1:09:28 - This demonstrates how much progress they made but Heimerdinger thinks they need to slow down/Heimerdinger’s character/Heimerdinger is correct because these devices are clearly not ready/I grew up surrounded by science/Heimerdinger shuts them down
1:11:42 - Back to the airship and Caitlyn investigates/The top hat agenda/One of the goons is hiding/Marcus shows up/The last drop and contrast between episode 1 and 4
1:19:23 - Enter Silco’s office where Sevika is angry about Jinx/“Who’s ‘we’?”/Silco starts talking about the state of Zaun/He’s got stuff that has been drawn on by Jinx (So cute!)
1:22:51 - Ughhhhhhhhhhh (Silco and Jinx’s relationship is romantic? The answer is no)/Doomer thinks it’s not clear/Two adults hugging and touching?/Doomer is 85-90% sure that Silco kisses Jinx on the lips
1:29:45 - Jinx and Silco conversation/Party with Mel/Elora says that Mel’s mother would be proud and her response is “would she?”/Meaningful moment of Mel looking at the smaller version of the city/Heimerdinger and Mel represent two different perspectives
1:35:28 - An important Jinx scene/We see her lair/Mylo’s shot/Jinx’s insecurities with feeling like she’s weak/The dolls of Mylo and Claggor/Silco’s parenting/The individual frames of Jinx’s mental illness/But Progress Day’s coming up!/“Man is it convenient that there was something to steal.”
1:40:29 - Viktor is coughing🙁/Jayce offers that Viktor comes up with him but Vik is very uncomfortable with this side meanwhile Jayce thrives in it./Some girl smiles at Viktor/Legendary shot/Personalities/The face of progress
1:43:51 - The conflict of this scene: What’s going to be in Jayce’s speech/Jayce heeds Heimerdinger’s warning/However Viktor was excited to reveal it and Mel is disappointed/Viktor doesn’t want the spotlight yet he wants to go on with the projects that the crowd would like and the Jayce is the one getting the spotlight but he decides against it/The perspectives of everyone in this conflict/Viktor’s motivation/The egos of both of them/Viktor - shock, Mel - confused, Heimerdinger - Angry to settled
1:49:34 - Heimerdinger contradicts himself?/Is it a let down for the crowd?/Heimerdinger says to reveal something and then he says don’t (Doomer’s wrong.)/Is there a way to reveal the technology without saying “we’re going to deploy it tomorrow”?/Jayce’s great showmanship/It’s Blizcon/From Jayce’s pov it’s much safer (relatable to the panel)
1:56:47 - What is the cost of Jayce revealing the hexgemstone?/Jayce only had a day/Heimerdinger thinks we can’t deploy this technology, we need more time to develop it. That doesn’t even imply that it shouldn’t be revealed just not deployed./No Man’s Sky/Cyberpunk 2077/Deadlines and the expectations that it creates/Large games are always announced years before their release?/Years? 1-4 vs 10/What happens when don’t announce projects?/Are they still talking about this?/ESAD
2:05:49 - Caitlyn outside/Fire!/Horrendous plot armor vs terrible visual communication/
2:14:55 - Caitlyn spots Jinx but passes out/Jinx steals notes and the hexgemstone/The council decide that the undercity could use the hexgemstone for weaponry/Jayce says that they should suspend everything to do with hextech for safety/7 years and still has a kid's toy/Is plot armor a convince or a hole?/The councilors appeal to Piltover’s status thanks the to the hexgates, the self-interest they all have the goods but Heimerdinger is blown away but Jayce’s selflessness
2:18:33 - Why shutdown the hexgates?/The enemy could study it and they could leave the city/They don’t know it’s the undercity/Silco is desperate for those hexgates/Shut down the hexgates to stop it from gettitng out
2:23:03 - Cool shot/Alternative, Mel suggests that Jayce (Not Jay, dear god) become a councilor/Heimerdinger is the reason Jayce gets this position
2:24:45 - Jinx is listening to ‘Get Jinxed’/They show: sparking up something, a mechanical butterfly, blueprint/Silco is outraged and Jinx is chill (I love it)/Jinx should write ‘damaged’ on her forehead/Jinx shows Silco what she has/She did it
2:29:55 - Jayce visits an injured Caitlyn on the case/Jayce brings her flowers when Caitlyn knows flowers. She surrounded by flowers/“Jayce I don’t appreciate these flowers, for I have many and I am very focused on this case that is important to me.” (I’m counting this a Boba snipe)/Jayce tries to fix the scene so he tries to give her a ceremonial position but that is the exact wrong thing to give to her/What does being an enforcer involve?/Caitlyn accepts the position/Caitlyn decides it’s worth it to interview the man in Stillwater/The goon has had his jaw broken by none other than Vi!/MauLer kinda forgot about Vi/Don’t punch brick walls
2:38:31 - Overall thoughts on Episode 4
-EPISODE 5-
2:40:33 - Discussion of Episode 5 begins/Great character building scene for Caitlyn/This scene is pretty/Target competition between Caitlyn and Grayson (it’s weird)/Sad that Grayson is dead/“Why do you shoot?”
2:46:30 - Vi and Caitlyn are talking to each other/Vi and Caitlyn have preconceived notions about others/Caitlyn decides to get Vi out of prison/We try to talk about penis man but it’s time for the debate...
2:48:13 - The scene is the convenient that Caitlyn is able to meet Vi and that they cooperate with each other/What motivation does Caitlyn have to talk to her?/Compared to Silence of the Lambs/Vi’s reaction to the drawings/She already knows that Vi lied about knowing the guy and Vi reveals that everyone works for Silco/They aren’t hostile or antagonistic to each other?
2:51:55 - Fringy: What should Caitlyn should have done? Doomer: Leave/It’s not her only lead?/Why should you make the assumption that the person beat them up knows anything?/What’s the reason not talk to them?/Doomer is a classist/They do trust each other?
2:54:12 - It's very convenient that it’s Vi/It’s convenient that Caitlyn decides to go talk to the person who beat up Tattoo man/From Caitlyn’s POV there’s no reason to believe is going to help solve the case/She certainly has other things to do/It’s also convenient that person just so happens to be the one person in the universe that can help her solve that case/Marcus would actually be the best person to help solve this case/Just randomly bumping into Vi (??????)
2:59:51 - From Caitlyn’s POV there isn’t a reason that this person is going to be useful or this person will help you/Caitlyn is skeptical/There are lots of other things that can happen/If Vi didn’t say anything, Caitlyn would have to do something else/Vi wants to get out because she’s a way to get to Powder
3:01:46 - Do you think that Vi thinks there’s a reasonable shot to get her out of prison? (As long as there’s a one percent chance)/If she’s trying to get out of prison, then why would she insult her?/Doomer assumed that there was no chance that she was going to get out of prison (Doomer, she said ‘I could get this information but not from a cell’)/There’s no contradiction between viciously attacking her and trying to get her to free you?
3:04:04 - “We’re going into a prison to talk to someone who was thrown into a maximum confinement, had the key thrown away, beat the fucking shit out of someone. I tried to talk to this person and now they’re fucking screaming at me that they fucking hate enforcers.” (Doomer’s insane)/Aw, she insulted me, Imma leave/Vi is emotional and hate enforcers (also she’s a woman)/Not caving on anything?/There are very good reasons to not do what they do and it happens anyway/When Doomer was younger/They have very strong reasons to not trust her
3:08:21 - Theo breaks down the scene/Vi uses reverse psychology/Caitlyn was gone until she got a lead unprompted-Is that convenient?/Caitlyn trusts Vi?
3:10:37 - Doomer: I’ve argued 6 different positions on why this doesn’t make sense-Theo: They’re all wrong Doomer: You’re free to think that Theo: No, I’m right, you’re wrong.
3:10:49 - “It makes complete sense for Caitlyn to trust this person.”/Fringy: You’ve said that she trusts her and then when we say she doesn’t, you say that’s wrong./There are different levels of trust/Run the risk that Vi isn’t going to cooperative/Understatement that it’s a risk/Police talk to people who can unreliable/The problem isn’t talking to someone, the problem is letting them out
3:14:14 - Vi is a dangerous person and Caitlyn has a lot of reason to not be around her/It’s weird that Caitlyn talks to Vi/Caitlyn WAS going to leave/Why would Caitlyn think that talking to Vi in the first place help solve a grand conspiracy/You could just randomly talk to everyone in the prison/Risk factor of letting Vi out
3:20:01 - Caitlyn is not risk adverse/Caitlyn believes she can handle herself/Logic is subjective?/The sky is made of jelly/Should Caitlyn ask Vi any more questions before she lets her out?/I’ve become so numb
3:23:42 - Moving on!/Marcus scene where they respect the enforcers who died/Marcus brings his daughter to Grayson’s grave/Marcus then goes to Silco to confront him/Silco suggest that Marcus just blames the firelights/Marcus is not a penis man/Marcus’s role as sheriff was given to him because of Silco
3:28:20 - To Viktor and Jayce to the science room/Jayce is going to root out the corruption/“With all due respect, you’ve only been in office for a day” “TWO DAYS!” (I love my boy Jayce)/Jayce’s power as doubled/Viktor coughs and blood comes out🙁
3:30:35 - Jinx scene!/She’s created a device thanks to the notes/She explains to “Mylo” and “Claggor” what she’s going to do and causes an explosion/This causes flashback (This vs Boba Fett)/Claggor’s face appears on the doll/She sees the monkey device and the boys’ deaths/“No! It was a mistake! It was a mistake!”/Quite realistic/She still has the bunny (and the flare!)/
3:36:55 - Vi has a quick discussion but it’s too risky to take the conventional way/It’s dumb that Vi assumes Cait can keep up/The scene wants you to think she’s just behind her but that’s not logistically possible/Duncan has appeared/Vi says she wants to lay low/Silco’s eye change/Piltover has made all this progress but structurally the undercity hasn’t changed a bit
3:42:04 - Vi's tattoo (Objective cringe)
3:42:58 - Some things try to rob Vi and she shuts them down/Oldman and the tram/Cait lands exactly where Vi is/Das isn’t paying attention
3:46:53 - Viktor is fiddling with the hexcore/“Are you sure this is safe?” “No.”/Introduction to the best character ever-Jericho/Someone superchatted that they helped animated (that’s really good-excellent work!)/Vi gets some food and Cait is annoyed/Best boy tells them to go to the brothel
3:51:35 - Politics time!/Jayce is becoming less popular so Mel gives him advise/Mel is like Frank Underwood except she’s a good person/Theorizing that Mel was LeBlanc (spelling?)/Jayce’s conversation with Amara gives him a chance to turn it around/Amara has a shockingly young (and hot???) voice/He’s making alliances meanwhile Heimerdinger is enjoying the show/Not enough politics scene/The violinist is modeled after Ray Chen who did the violin work for “What Could Have Been”
3:58:10 - Jinx goes back to the hang out room/She steps on the plate with Mylo’s face/Looks at the leader board/Jinx shoots a crow🙁/To deal with what’s happened to her, Jinx has to see killing as not a big deal (Really great Jay point)/Jinx starts up the machine/The scratches around her say “Vi”/Silco Critic/Shot appreciation/Jimx’s complex feelings about Vi/The fight/Jinx spins (neat trick) and it lines up with Vi/Jinx finishes second/She’s dealing with a bit
4:07:07 - Scene transition to the Last Drop/It has security/“That looks like a place with bodies in the basement” (CAITLYN!)
4:08:29 - The girls enter the brothel and Doomer thinks it’s the worst scene in the show/The scene doesn’t need to be here and the characters are acting OOC
4:11:11 - This scene isn’t necessary at all/It presents contradictory information: “How exactly do you prepose we go about this?”/Vi wants Caitlyn to leave/Vi could have left Caitlyn/“You expect everyone to give you what you want.”-Justified?/Caitlyn gets the answers she wants?/People tend to get what she wants?/Most people give what they think she wants/She wants to be an enforcer so she gets to be one./It’s not an observation it’s a stereotype
4:19:50 - It could be cut-when she speaks to the owner, it establishes that Silco didn’t just walk in and everyone bent the knee/This is the beginning of the romantic relationship of Vi and Cait/This is how she figures out where Sevika is/Sevika could just be at The Last Drop/The scene accomplishes something but it’s not necssary-but it has to be done in a different way
4:42:37 - Another best scene (but it's not about Jinx)/Bloodied coin/Silco provides “evidence” that the firelights are behind everything/“Do you imagine yourself a hero?”/Then Marcus pulls the pin/Not really tho/
4:27:50 - Jinx is sad/Silco says that he needs her to weaponize the hextech
4:29:20 - Jayce and Mel do the sex meanwhile Viktor does the hex/“The Meradas usually take from the world.”/Sigma grind set/The woman hints at Viktor but she’s shut down🙁
4:31:24 - Silco and Jinx scene (no lips are kissed)/Jinx is bored of this speech/“A weak man dies.”/Jinx is perfect/He investing in her the same way he want would have wanted someone else to invest in him/He gives her a lot of validation
4:33:07 - Imagine Dragons cameo/The song stops and cuts to Viktor in the hospital and then comes back/The POV of Marcus/We see the kids that they fought (possibly)/Evidence that the undercity has gone to shit/
4:38:18 - Vi took a knee to Sevika’s face/FIGHT!/Sevika has her own life
4:41:46 - Fringy Tangent
4:43:56 - The Marcus picture/The camera spins with Vi/Vi smashes Sevika through a wall/“Where’s Powder?! Where’s he keeping her?!”/Vi loosens her grip and Sevika gets a stab in her stomach/“She’s like his daughter.”/Caitlyn get over here now!/“Help me up, cupcake.”/Maybe we’ll see more cupcakes! Who knows?😊/Sevika bloodily gets into Silco’s office and informs him that Vi is alive meanwhile Jinx figures out the hexgemstone
4:50:08 - Poe: Somehow Palaptine returned | Silco: FROM THE DEAD?!
4:50:55 - Finishing episode 5. Next week, they’ll totally do four.
You are a true hero.
A Futurama remake. We know what's coming don't we?
Legend
Thanks a lot. Don Bless.
The EFAP writers have really stepped up their game this season.
Doomer was joking that he was about to leave the stream after the Jinx/Silco kiss thing and Mauler was like "It's okay, you've got plenty of opportunities to be wrong in future too." So much foreshadowing in one sentence!
I laughed way too hard at this xD
After the New Years stream? You couldn’t have been more right.
@@theaspiringwriter7249 I was thinking of this too LOL
This aged a certain way
Oh my goodnessssss
Obligatory Doomer rebuttal. Sad no one called out Doomer on his strange assumption that Vi having no record of her incarceration is somehow indicative of her being some Hannibal Style supervillain.
The logical assumption of such a violation of the legal system is evidence of high level corruption within the Enforcers, which is exactly what Vi said was the case. So it only adds to her credibility, not detract.
I’m not sure it’s in caitlyn’s character to automatically assume corruption with Vi not having a record. At this point of the story, she still believes that the corruption doesn’t run as deep. I also don’t agree with doomer that the assumption should be that this person is insanely dangerous. I think made the most logical decision (both for her character and the situation) to go and ask the prisoner.
Yes a great point. There's so much stacking up against his argument I can't for the life of me believe he actually believes his statements. I suspect he's going after Caitlyn and Vi for other reasons.
I could be way off, I know. But he was so roundly proven to be faulty in his reasoning, and yet he persisted as if they had said nothing to disprove his point.
That tells me his conclusions are based on some emotional need or emotional reaction, not the product of any amount of reasoning.
It's a lead to follow and even if lying, Vi and her records being nonexistent both hints at least towards something, each the same thing, or not...
Just saying Doomer was bad fair as fawk when arguing that Vi being a ghost in the books was anything close to a superior reason to ignore her, rather than investing a bit of time into her claims.
@@MistbornTaylor You know what, you're right, Caitlyn would not assume corruption, but simply a clerical error. She would not under any circumstances assume that no reccord = supervillain. In fact supervillains would have MORE reccords to ensure they are kept where they are.
@@janehrahan5116 She would also be far more inclined to believe that, at the very least, this prison is heavily corrupt once the warden casually asks her if she wants the prisoner is beaten up in a way that implies that this behavior is commonplace amongst the visitors and guards of the prison.
DoomerMedia: “I’ve argued like six different positions on why this doesn’t make sense-“
Theo: “And they’re all wrong!”
Bless you, Theo, that really amused me. I heard so much exasperation in that response.
I cannot trust Doom to be a good detective based off of his unwillingness to question the person who beat your lead.
Yeah, I don't understand. It's literally how to tell every detective story EVER!
You need the lead, you inspect incidents, you get help from a con you don't fully trust because he is the only lead you got, you keep a close eye on him, he betrays you half-way through.
And many leads do end in dead ends until you find the right one. That's the nature of investigation. In this case, it was a good lead to follow that she initially gave up on until Vi called her back. Because, as with the other scene that he didn't understand, Caitlyn didn't manipulate Vi into cooperating. Vi manipulated Caitlyn.
I was honestly amazed how he does not see the utility of that.
Imagine if after Jack Ruby killed Lee Harvey Oswald all the investigators just shrugged and never even bothered to question him about it.
The Enforcers that tell off Caitlyn do not hesitate to run into a fire when they hear a chilled crying for help while Caitlyn is getting an extinguisher. The writers make even the antagonistic Enforcers noble and heroic in a critical moment.
I really appreciated Doomer during the Arcane Part 1, but the fiasco over the Vi/Caitlyn prison scene was hard to listen to. The denial of factual events, the constant repetition and restatement of previously defeated points, the emotional aggression after being challenged like cornered animal… can’t blame the rest of the guests and crew for getting frustrated. Honestly surprised that something like this happened with this round of guests.
people run into a wall sometimes .... beeing live probably didn t help to admit it. you could tell he was thinking about it the whole time.
@@keto3883 He conceded on his points multiple times, when it looked like it allow him to make another point and roll past the previous. Whenever Mauler or Fringy would attempt to clarify that he had conceded anything, he would defensively roll it back and deny that he had. I believe most of the stuttering and repetition was Doomer feeling as if he was right, stalling for more ways to say the same thing a different way since he had nothing left. It wasn’t until he started yelling over them about how he was right and they were the ones holding up the conversation, that I became upset. I was relatively indifferent to the discussion, because it was a big nothing burger.
Doomer goes from convenience, to real criminals wouldn't do that in reality.
We also probably wouldn't live under a bar with explosives in reality
I found him to be very inarticulate, which made it a pain to listen to even when he said stuff I agreed with, it being just the part when he said that Caitlyn should've and maybe would've asked more questions and at least tried to make any assurances before deciding to free Vi.
this is why he loses the wrench
On this episode of EFAP, Doomer Media goes fishing and manages to get tangled up in the fishing line.
That doesn't sound very CONVENIENT.
How INCONVENIENT.
@@bigwinz 10/10 comment
I still can’t believe Doomer was so resistant to the idea that Caitlyn (or nearly anyone else for that matter) would be interested in speaking to the person who attacked her only lead hours after being in prison. Nor how adamant he was that Caitlyn trusted Vi even though they were clearly antagonistic towards each other all the way up to the end of that episode.
“From Caitlyn’s perspective…” :/
@@Rokumasu853 no, I think he just watched the show wrong. Mauler was right, he's insane.
"So dangerous they don't even keep proper records on them"
Doomer, that's pure tism.
Yeah wouldn’t it tell you some fuckery is happening within justice system that someone is just there that appears to have a grudge against a mob boss you suspecting exists?
Haven't watched the video and am half asleep, but my brain hurts just reading that.
I cant stop laughing at this 🤣
Yeah wtf does that even meannnn
As I said on the unlisted: Mad respect for the chad Enforcers who were instantly ran into a burning building when they are heard a scream for help as if it is the most natural thing ever. What legends.
I'm sad we forgot to mention that, very true, good lads.
Cool to show that the Enforcers are also human. Depicted as monsters in the first scene of the series, teasing Caitlyn and despite that they didnt resitated to go into danger to save some one.
@@TheRedGauntlet Yes, it is really good to see that the show is absolutly fair with everyone and not go down the ACAB route. + It is show that even the uppercity is not a monolitchis class who rule the poor but it is dividie as well.
It does make Jinx even more despicable though which makes the whole "We hope Vi can save Powder!" vibe even weirder
@@Dantarn In a sense, I agree with them, if Vi can "save" Powder the world can avoid a lot of suffering. The problem that Powder are already dead and this is a fact that Vi couldn't understand. The conflict really is that Jinx want to be loved by Vi, but not as Powder but as Jinx.
The Events:
--> Markus arrests Vi, having her placed in Stillwater prison to "save" her life.
--> The Fireflies gain knowledge of a smuggling ship transporting Shimmer belonging to Silco and decide to attack it.
--> Jinx is aboard this vessel and begins slaughtering the Fireflies but suffers a mental breakdown at the sight of one of the Fireflies that looks like her sister, Vi, and fails to stop them from burning the Shimmer, in a panic, she begins to fire indiscriminately, accidentally striking a friendly.
--> Caitlyn discreetly enters the crime scene, she isn't supposed to be at, and discovers a series of clues pointing to a Shimmer smuggling ring, a strange symbol marked into the door and a wounded criminal hiding below deck who mentions that he was shoot by a crazy woman who he can't name because "they'll" kill him.
--> Caitlyn is discovered and is punished by being given an additional shift of guard duty.
--> The wounded criminal is taken to Stillwater prison, where he is immediately beaten within an inch of his life by Vi.
--> Jinx, desiring to prove herself to Silco after her failure to protect the Shimmer ship, decides to attack Piltover on progress day, believing there might be valuable technologies to steal (which is a reasonable presumption given the details we are told about progress day).
--> Jinx sets up a booby trap to lure the enforces away from the building they are guarding and distract reinforcements; she brands this booby trap with her symbol.
--> Caitlyn is working her additional shift when the attack happens and goes to secure a fire extinguisher while the other enforcers approach the burning tent and hear the sound of a little girl, so they rush inside.
--> Caitlyn successfully extinguishes the flame just before the bombs detonate allowing her to see Jinx's symbol tagged into the building before it is destroyed and manages to get a brief sight of Jinx before she enters the building as she is losing consciousness.
--> The council of Piltover is informed of the resources that have been stolen and promote Jayce into a position aboard the council in an effort to defend Hex-Tech.
--> Caitlyn's near-death shock scares her powerful parents into pressuring the sheriff into firing Caitlyn.
--> Jayce warns Caitlyn about her parent's actions in an attempt to offer her a job.
--> Desperate to put the pieces together before she is retired, she travels to Stillwater prison, hoping to collect additional information from the criminal who was wounded from friendly fire.
--> Caitlyn learns the inmate was beaten severally upon his arrival and will be unable to be interviewed for months (months she doesn't have), hoping the beating was related to the case and that she would be able to acquire some information out of the violent prisoner
--> Vi, having been repeatedly beaten by enforcers in the past and having just broken the rules, expects to be beaten again and misinterprets Caitlyn as a corrupt enforcer and her questions as taunting.
--> Receiving no information from Vi, Caitlyn decides to leave, however at the last moment Vi say's "Give Silco a kiss on that winning eye of his" unprompted.
--> Caitlyn is aware that Silco is a suspect, sensing that Vi has an un-favorable opinion of Silco, she returns and asks Vi for more information about the symbol Jinx made.
--> Vi has an immediate reaction to the symbol, but Caitlyn demands her question be answered first, and asks if Silco runs the undercity
--> Vi responds yes, but is bewildered by the question, asking how anyone couldn't know that (which, alongside the willingness to cross the redline and show evidence to her, was a sign she wasn't taunting her).
--> Caitlyn asks if she could prove her statement, and Vi say's "not from in here," Caitlyn is reasonable skeptical of such a claim and asks for a reason why she would trust someone like Vi.
--> Vi is dismayed, that her chance to find Jinx has been denied and insults Caitlyn some more.
--> Caitlyn begins to leave, but before she's gone, Vi says the undercity would eat her alive.
--> The majority of clues Caitlyn could investigate are in the undercity, she has a limited amount of time before she is fired and afterward she will be unable to talk to Vi or the other prisoner.
--> Vi seems to be an enemy of Silco, knows the undercity better than Caitlyn, and is a strong, powerful person capable of defending both herself and Caitlyn
--> Seeing her options are limited she forges a document with Jayce's signature to free Vi in the hopes she can help her take down Silco.
Doomer:
Sounds like a coincidence.
Brilliant analysis of why Doomer is a moron
@@araara7429 thanks.
@@araara7429 The funny thing is I didn't even address the brothel scene removal idea, which would have not only damaged Vi's character (by making her willing to risk innocent people's lives), but also, ironically, would add significantly more coincidence if the Vi/Sevika fight played out the same way.
Another layer of his shit take is remember how there was a comment about “how convenient it is that there was something for Jinx to steal on PROGRESS DAY” and Doomer groaned at it? It’s pretty funny considering his take on prison scene.
Nice rundown. Also, I like your formatting. Pleasant to read and engaging when paired with your directness.
Something that I hadn’t noticed until last week was that the scene in episode two where Vander brings Vi to the bridge, parallels the bapitsm scene. In episode 2, Vander is taking Vi to the place where he became a changed man. He realized that his actions causes the death of hundreds and that he can’t allow that to happen anymore. So he took responsibility and adopted Vi and Powder. Then in episode 5, Silco shows Jinx where he became a changed man where he realized that he cannot trust people. So he took his life into his own hands and fought back.
Both scenes are fathers passing down their life lessons to their daughters. They are heavily impactful to both girls. Vi makes the decision to take the fall for Powder and Jinx gets the confidence to try to figure out the hexgemstone.
Vander's and Silco's paralells are really good, all of them. It is a really cool cyclical structure they are maked for the two character and for Jinx and Vi as well.
Episode 3 also had a paralel they didn't notice: when Vander was choking Silco he had one eye bloodied and closed, just like Silco did the first time they were in that situation.
@@Skybreaker1337 Wow, nice one.
Doomermedia: It doesn't make sense that Caitlyn and Vi just trust each other.
Also Doomermedia: It makes no sense that Vi just sets Caitlyn up with some random and lies to her to go get the info on her own.
It's because she doesn't trust her!! Like man, do you litterally need the two of them to say out loud they don't trust each other?
To be fair he grew up surrounded by bad writing, it would be very convenient if he didn't expect to be handheld.
After re-listening to the tism part, I think Doomer misses the part where the "convenient" part was set up. It would seem convenient if that episode was the episode where you started watching after skipping the prior ones.
It's like looking at a chess match where one opponent is one move away from saying check-mate and thinking that it's so convenient that the entire board is set up in a way that allows him to check mate that other guy.
That's a great analogy. I'll try using it in future if there is ever a similar debate/argument happening in regards to convenience. Thanks!
Damn, that's a good analogy.
Didn't Doomer say he saw this show 5 times ?
How can he think Silco and Jinx were an item after that ?
Mandela effect or he just said it because he thought he remembers it good enough to say that
He didn't think they were, he just said that he thought something happened that would allow a person to argue for it
@@antiphon000 He said he was 90% sure it happened
He wanted to put it in his video, to b1tch about something, something potent, to "counter-balance" his praises towards the show.
It being wrong as fawk, illegitimate as a valid point, and a mega-cringe take..? Nah, if you listen to him, he didn't wanna hear none of that, no matter what number he gave.
Seeing the show once would be enough and to double-check would've busted his ba1ls, so until EFAP, he did anything *but* verify his sh1t.
No offense meant, but he literally told a lie, or made stuff up in his script, despite being able to check at any point before this stream. Disgusting lack of professionalism.
@@amanibob1416 "Disgusting lack of professionalism."
The guy may be wrong about a show but he's talking in a rather casual setting, it's not like he's paid 20 bucks an hour to fully analyze the plot.
1:24:00
Jinx trauma has her emotionally stunted, a huge part of her personality cant move past the 9 year old girl who killed her family, this is why they keep displaying the ghosts of Milo and Clagger.
This is also why shes often way more childish than she should be at her age.
In her head shes still that girl.
If you watch all the Silco and Jinx scenes again but picture Powder instead of Jinx there is absolutely nothing weird going on.
Its a 9 year old girl hugging her father, curling up on his lap, playing around with stuff on his desk, there is nothing unusual or strange about a 9 year old girl doing this.
What MAKES it weird for us as viewers is that WE know shes not 9 anymore, shes a young adult 16 or 17 years old and this behavior from a 17 year old girl could be kinda strange.
The writers did this intentionally, its meant to make you uncomfortable but no, there is 100% not anything sexual going on.
Its strictly a Father/Daughter relationship.
We were so close to dodging that tismy prison debate.
Looking back makes it even worse. They were about to just jump past that scene... And then all kinds of tism happened
It’s convenient that we didn’t.
@@Hollyclown Indeed a bit convenient that he would just HAPPEN TO lead them on a painful. And I'm not to big on the writing either. Doomer was way out of character.
@@Hollyclown A little TOO convenient. Doesn't seem a bit too convenient that Doomer just HAPPENS to be on the panel, and he just HAPPENS to think the prison scene is convenient? And then he just doesn't let it go. Why doesn't he let it go? The EFAP character actions just don't make sense!
I was 85-90% sure they were going to skip that scene
Doomer: "And again *repeats a point that's been debunked a dozen times already*"
Has it? They are arguing different points and doomer isn't as good a debater as Longman
@@williemerilson3112 I dunno, you necro posted a thread that's been dead for almost a year I don't know if I trust your judgement, banana man.
@Ivan Vancheskov crying about necroposting, a term more suited to LIFO messageboards, on a platform that algorithmicly encourages views of older popular content and algorithmically placed your comment near the top suggests you own judgment is rather lacking.
Either way, we are both generating interaction for efap so carry on
Love the prison tangent when you're dealing with a ticking clock.
There is no ticking clock, Caitlyn can just wait for Tattoo Bro to heal up his wounds.
-Doomer, definitely.
@@grandarkfang_1482 🤣🤣🤦♂️
What? Are they going to explode or something? Oh no, they'll have to do more parts, waaaah!
Welcome to EFAP.
Tangents are fine and correcting and trying to explain to Doomer why he's wrong shouldn't be frowned upon. That's the whole point of EFAP. The problem with it was Doomers refusal to admit he's wrong. Absolutely nothing wrong with the rest of the cast trying to explain it to him.
Edit: The length of the stream is not my issue. Thanks for taking a single sentence out of my comment and making it the only point you respond to.
It has now been removed so my actual point remains.
@@BaldorfBreakdowns It's not arbitrary, it was rags birthday.
@@BaldorfBreakdowns It...it was still 5 hours.
Goddamn the doomer vs everyone arguments where Doomer is just categorically wrong are just infuriating as all hell with how long they are.
I think they're hilarious. I've had conversations like this with friends. Been on both sides, too.
He isn't categorically wrong he is just really bad at dancing around his objections. His objections have merit. However, as no one is supporting him, he is just trying to move along
@@williemerilson3112 No one is supporting him precisely because he is objectively wrong. It is not “convenience” that leads Caitlyn to speak to Vi in prison, nor is it convenient that Caitlyn visited the prison to speak to an inmate she has already met that might have info she can use.
@@Rokumasu853 Agreed.
Moreover, Vi does not show up on any prison records, which is extremely suspicious and speaks to a rather high-level coverup.
Releasing such a person and waiting for the fallout is an excellent strategy to get to the bottom of a supposed massive conspiracy that rules all crime in the underworld.
@@liamhogan4369 I doubt she was looking that far ahead. She was clearly suspicious about VI’s prison status, I agree with that. Even then I doubt she would have risked her career or the safety or Piltover if she had any other lead to follow. It’s combination of her instincts that there’s more going on, and her desperation brought on by a lack of options, that lead her to take that risk. Also, Caitlyn is very competent and confident in her abilities. If anything did go awry, she likely trusts herself to be able to handle it.
Doomer def watched on his second monitor bro some of these takes and the refusal to back down was wack lmao
Doomer grew up surrounded by bad takes
He definitely had some misinterpretations.
rather like his Chapelle take
@@wwyd4akb What's his Chapelle take? My take is that he is dodgy. He seems to have a personal life that is enriched with spirituality, for instance becoming a Muslim and then for his career he espouses and advertises leftist, liberal politics for Western society. He disparages the trans mob, but its not for them complaining about the 'privilege hierarchy' but rather, if you pay attention, his real gripe with them is that they think they are above black people on that hierarchy. He seeks to correct that, and that alone. Invariably he goes on to disparage and attack white people as per usual. He wants America to be a multicultural melting pot where he can make his millions, but he wants Africa/the Middle East (where he has been on Hajj) to be a place where he can express his 'roots' and religiosity.
@@Fudz4 to vastly oversimplify Doomers video on it, but still catch enough of the meaning I hope, Dave Chapelles the closer went too far in causing offense. Doomer had a self-conscious fat friend that he'd joke around with about everything, except fatness, and once his friend wasnt fat they joked about that too.
Somehow this translates to not acknowledging with the innate absurdity of trans-ness and only being able to respect someones beliefs on it and not in any way challenge them or joke about it, or do anything but validate their unexamined thoughts.
Yes I'm biased, and probably in someway misrepresenting/remembering but if something is socially unmockable thats likely something that needs mocking, and even if not no one should be fired or cancelled for jokes or trying to be funny, or in the worse case saying something deliberatly offensive.
@@wwyd4akb to be fair to this terrible video, he didnt want the man to be cancelled iirc
2:48:34 Stunlock starts
3:24:34 Stunlock ends
for those like me who got bored of the argument
'Argument'
I don’t think Doomer is stupid. I just think he had a belief (which was wrong) and was unable to understand how he was wrong.
Thanks, that was dragging on
@@Ok_Butterscotch1549 His new years “Stories in games” stunlock begs to differ
Jesus Christ it goes for that long?????????????
Doomer:”It makes no sense that cait would work with someone she can’t trust, especially since she’s been established to take risks and this prisoner could be of great use to her, as well as the fact that she seems to share her interests. Why would she do that when her alternative is a dead end?”
Doomer was on something this whole session.
@@mongooseunleashed his profile pic checks out
"My favourite part of the stream was when Rags kissed Mauler on the lips, even though it was very convenient."
-Doombo Medggins
"But is it a massive gay for a longman to kiss a doggo, and does that imply they are engaged?"
-Doombler Medora
90% sure this happened!
Everything about this comment and this reply section is convenient, including my existence and the fact that I also have incentive to reply to this comment as well. And don’t even get my started on how convenient it is that this video exists too.
I can't stop picturing rags stretching his little doggo neck out his window, over half the U.S. mainland, all the way across the Atlantic Ocean, snaking through the streets of whatever city MauLer lives in, in through his window, then casually up to him and giving him a cut little peck on the lips.
Then he moves back and looks MauLer dead in the eyes and says, "I only love you because you're convenient."
Because of MauLer’s welsh boy accent, EVERY TIME he says “Mel” I think he’s talking about “Metal.”
Best chat message in 5 hours: Boba Fett knows cringe. He grew up sorrounded by cringe.
I want that on a t shirt, along with the meme of him on the speeder "like a bantha!" On the back of the shirt
Sometimes it feels like doomer is looking for "flaws" and "convenience" where there is none just to dunk on the show for some brownie points.
Some of the tangents in efap are entertaining and others are just draining and serve no purpose, the entire vi interrogation tangent was the latter.
Yup
Well said. It’s one thing if his tangent could be proven but it’s clear that he was blinded by his bias and as a result his tangent took time away from actually discussing the show. It was tough to sit through.
much preferred Fringy just hard cutting to a Mario Kart 200cc conversation seeing as I was practicing SNES Rainbow Road on 200 at the time
I mean, he was the guy who made a video being critical of Dave Chapelle... and it wasn't really well received, lol... :-P
It took time away from other scenes, like they had to rush quite a bit near the end. I would've´ really liked for them to talk more about the baptism scene between Silco and Jinx, such as how they look at each other or how gentle Silco is with her. Like there are so many things to talk about! That's why I'm officially done with the Doom Squad. Friendship ended with Dommer, now S-class is my best friend
One of these days EFAP is going to have stop with all these short videos and go REAL in-depth into media.
Seriously, we only get 1 decent length episode every 50 EFAPs!
XD
I can understand how you could initially interpret that scene with Jinx sitting in Silco's lap as romantic but the show makes it pretty clear in every scene afterwards that it's just a father/daughter thing. The fact that Doomer so confidently believed they kissed on the lips seems like a bit of a self report but idk
I would agree their first scene together on my first watch through made me think what is going on between these two. Afterwards though it is insanely clearly communicated that there is no romance between them.
God forbid that someone misremembers a scene! 😒
@@lukew6725 The kissing thing is more of a joke the strange arguments at a later point were where I was wondering what he was doing
@@lukew6725 Thats a huge thing to misremember. If that actually happened, it would honestly ruin Silco's character for me because that would make him a groomer and a predator. It's not some small insignificant plot point
@@lukew6725 Bro it's one thing if you misremember it's another when you try to argue with 10 other people when they say you're wrong and say you're "90%" sure
Part of what made Jayce back off his reveal was the fact that Mel already had outside investors lined up for it, which he wasn't expecting.
Also, Caitlyn is looking for a head conspirator in the under city, but Marcus is actively gaslighting her. When Vi suggests that Silco is a conspirator behind most crime in the undercity, that is a HUGE motivator for Caitlyn to get info from her, both as a guide, and AWAY from the prison, so Vi can speak more freely.
Caitlyn knows that she's about to be fired by Marcus. She is working on a deadline. This is likely her only chance to speak with Vi, and even if she can find a way to return, the guards' disregard for Vi's wellbeing means it's a risk that she could die before Caitlyn gets that chance... especially if her mysterious conspirator gets wind of her investigation. It is now or never.
Not just about to be fired by Marcus, she has already been actively fired which is why Jayce offers her the security position. So she’s got even more reason to do it because now this will prove her worth and be put back on the force.
Arcane is one of those rare series where the side characters are just as realized as our main ones.
Markus was a character I didn’t appreciate enough on my first viewing but as I paid more attention to him his story is so well done, and dare I say tragic. The guilt he feels for the death of Grayson, his inner conflict that he deals with trying to balance his duty of being an enforcer (a sheriff no less) and his ties with Silco. Even though he wants to do the right thing, he’s already in way too deep. It was just tragic seeing him so powerless to do anything. And it’s all punctuated by the end of his story. Fantastic stuff. And that’s not even including all the other great side characters like Savika, Vander, Ekko, Hiemerdinger, etc.
Theres so much that can be discussed and it’s incredible that Arcane managed to pull it off.
(Also special mention for the CHAD JERICHO. What a legend.)
Holy shit I just got to Doomer decides to debate police talking to criminals is something that no officer would ever do whatsoever, especially if they got their feelings hurt, because they could be lying, and/or dangerous (you know as opposed to the non dangerous violent criminals), like wtf is this garbage?! Police don’t care if someone is lying or not or think someone will lie, their jobs aren’t to decide who will and won’t talk and then try and go from there, police will question EVERYONE, regardless if they think they’re being lied to or not, police get insulted ALL THE TIME and still deal with people of interests in cases, it’s part of the job, police deal with dangerous violent criminals ALL THE TIME. Also, this HORRIBLE crock of shit argument of, “oh, I dislike police, but when I get pulled over, I try and do my best to be a good noodle,” there’s flaws all over in that shit argument. One, people who dislike police also give police a hard time too and aren’t afraid of the repercussions when they’re pulled over, so for every one of the people who try and be respectful towards cops, there’s someone who will be out there who doesn’t care about being disrespectful. Two, when an officer pulls you over for speeding, you can make your life a lot worse by popping off on a cop, giving them shit, and being belligerent, you still have things to lose, Vi has NOTHING to lose, she’s at rock bottom, she’s a lifer in prison, anything she gains from helping an enforcer is only a bonus to where she is, but if she doesn’t, it’s right back to the shit hole she’s been living in, her life doesn’t get worse than where it already is, so she doesn’t give a fuck about talking shit to a cop. She’s also an institutionalized young girl who was raised by a crime lord, being afraid of the police wasn’t something she was raised with, hating them is something she was raised with and not to mention they killed her parents, so obviously she’s gonna hate them. Also, lastly, let’s stop and figure out what the fuck, “convenient” means before we open our mouths, imagine, I’m a cop investigating something and my person of interest was just sent to jail, GREAT I don’t have to track him down, I can just go and pull him aside in a room and have questioning done, I get there and find my person of interest who was BARELY through processing and booking has just been violently assaulted, beaten half to death, and he was attack completely unprovoked, now if I’m a good cop, I have to figure out one thing, WHY was this guy who just got here and just eating, attacked so viciously he’s barely alive? And attacked by one person and no one else in the jail attacked this guy. That’s not, “establishing dominance” kind of attack, that’s a personal, emotional, hatefully driven kind of attack that I need to know why was it provoked, whether I get none, any, or all information, I have to do my due diligence on this one. Also, police use criminals all the time in sting operations to get bigger criminals and in exchange for lighter/shorter sentence, and even outright immunity. And constantly bringing up why would Caitlyn work with Vi considering that Vi is a dangerous criminal, idk if he knows the about the law enforcement profession, but dealing with dangerous criminals……………..KIND OF PART OF THE JOB DESCRIPTION!!!
Also, it was made CLEAR that Vi and Caitlyn didn’t trust each other, whatever happened to show don’t tell?! Also, Caitlyn doesn’t trust Vi, but police are forced ALL THE TIME to have cooperation with a criminal. There are levels to trust, and they were at the cooperative level, not, “I trust you with my life the love of my life” level, they don’t exactly have each other listed as their emergency contacts on their paperwork 😆😂
Also, holy shit what a dick move trying to throw Theo under the bus saying Theo tried to bring up that point.
"Cops will question EVERYBODY"
*Me: just walking past a 2 car crash i didn't see but got questioned for 5 minutes anyways*
Yeah, Doomer's take for this was pretty tismic.
@@Leotheleprachaun it kinda screams of someone who dislikes cops but doesn’t actually deal with cops and doesn’t know what cops actually do 😆😂
@@MegaMyown
Vander wasn’t a crime boss though
Doomer's takes regarding the Caitlyn/Vi Prison scene and Brothel scene are as bad as Gary saying "I was 15" during the Spiderman: Homecoming debate.
To be fair, Doomer is correct in saying that the Brothel scene is superfluous. Without that scene, Vi gets the note/info at the restaurant and then we cut to the fight with Sevika, so you would simply infer that note contains the location of Sevika. The brothel informant is thus an unnecessary middleman.
The brothel scene tells us that Cait is probably a lesbian and sets up a romance, both of which can be inferred from other scenes. The line from Vi that Cait needs to give people what they want also doesn't inform any of Cait's later actions. Also, if the note contains the name of the contact in the brothel that Vi talks to, this scene implies that Cait never asked to read the note, making her seem like a bit gullible/stupid, which is out of character for her.
The line that people resisted Silco after Vander's death can also be inferred just because of how much episodes 1-3 established just how loyal people were to Vander and his goals.
...I'm not touching the tism argument about the prison scene with a 10 foot pole though.
@@ryanhaley6395 Without the Brothel scene Vi won't know where Sevika is. We won't have any established info that people tried to fight back against Silco. Vi and Caitlyn relationship would have a jarring starts. And no Caitlyn is not out of character here. She doesn't know the undercity at all and she's established to be quite naive as the show presents several times.
Thus without the brothel scene more coincidences would be created as MANY people have already said in the comments and Reddit.
Also you saying "You can simply infer" just proves my point and everyone else's point even more that without it it would create more confusion. There NEEDS to be established context as to how Vi knows where Sevika is. It's that simple. Without this scene it creates problems. Also it isn't shown that the note has Sevikas location. It's only shown that it has a symbol. So no, you cannot make such an inference when it has already been shown as to what is on the note.
No, you and Doomer are wrong here as everyone who payed attention to the show agree on. Which is most people. Including the other 6 on the panel.
@@helenline1790 I'm sorry, but if it's jarring for Vi to know the location of Sevika based on a symbol on a note, then it would also be just as jarring for her to know the location of the middleman contact based on that same symbol. In both cases, the note is telling Vi where to go next by telling us the location of another character.
We as the audience have no clue as to what that note means, only Vi is supposed to know, its meaning is given to us contextually through the next scene. With the brothel scene, we infer the note leads us to the contact in the brothel. Without it, we infer the note leads us to Sevika directly.
And you can argue that the brothel scene makes the Vi and Cait relationship less jarring, but I find that it makes it more jarring tbh. With the brothel scene included, Vi just starts coming on to Cait suddenly. With it removed, Vi only starts showing affection after Cait saves her life, which is when Vi realizes her preconceptions of Cait may have been wrong.
And yes, the show is *filled* with tons of things where it expects the audience to make reasonable inferences, because it respects its audience enough to do so. For example, show me the line where Silco directly tells Jinx that he loves her, I'll wait.
It would be silly to think that Silco came into power without resistance, especially since our first scene with Jinx involves people (presumably from Zaun) attacking Silco's men to prevent the shipment of glimmer. We didn't need the brothel scene for that.
It's also silly to think that Caitlyn needed to be told that she had to give people things to expect a favor in return when *she released Vi in exchange for her services only a few scenes ago*. That line from Vi doesn't inform some change of Cait's character that happens over the course of the season, it is unnecessary other than to reaffirm Vi's opinion of Cait, which was already crystal clear by this point.
I don't even completely hate the brothel scene, but it is undoubtedly extraneous. But yes, keep on suggesting I didn't watch or pay attention to the show.
@@ryanhaley6395 She knows where Sevika is because the Yordle lady told her. Not because of the symbol on the note. The note leads her to a place of information, it tells her where the brothel is and by extension she talks to the owner being the Yordle lady. Vi also says "this is where all the secrets are spilled" it's also told to us that Sevika is a recurring patron of the Brothel which is why the Yordle lady knows where she hangs out. This how I know you didn't pay attention.
Vi has no way of knowing where Sevika is unless she finds out. It's that simple. The note leads her to the brothel being a place she knows about and recognises, where she can ask somebody. Having Vi just stumble on a random alley way in a place full of alley ways where she just happens to find where Sevika is purely based off of a symbol would be very contrived and stupid.
Instead the brothel scene has it happen naturally where Vi knows what place the symbol connects to. The symbol points to the brothel not a person. She asks the owner in the brothel and by extension gets information. It's ridiculous that the symbol could actually lead to a fucking person lmao. And it doesn't. The symbol leads to a PLACE, not a person.
Sevika could be anywhere, it's not guaranteed she's at the brothel. The owner of the Brothel being the Yorlde lady, points her in the right direction.
Cait isn't used to the undercity and Vi needs to show her how things work as there's no way she's be used to it after such a short time.
It would be silly to think Silco got power without resistance? How exactly? Because I've seen criticisms from people who didn't pay attention asking how Silco just took over without any resistance. So no telling the audience this is ABSOLUTELY vital.
Silco says to Jinx that he's his daughter and he would never forsake her. He also kisses her on the head when her life is in danger. He also says "I'm doing this for us Jinx". Yet another example proving you don't pay attention.
Sorry but you and Doomer are wrong. There's no way you aren't. As soon as you said the symbol can lead to a person I just knew your arguments would be as dumb as Doomer's. When it's literally demonstrated that the symbol leads to a place, not a person.
@@helenline1790
~~Concerning the note~~
Okay, let me try to explain this one more time. The show, as presented, has Vi get the note. The note tells Vi the name of either the brothel (and Vi has a friend there) or the name of the contact specifically. That middleman then tells us where Sevika is. I watched the show, I didn't miss this.
We, the audience, cannot interpret the information on the note, we *infer*/derive that information based on where Vi goes next, because we inherently understand she is going to immediately act on the information she is given.
In a hypothetical cut of Arcane where we skip the Brothel scene and go from the restaurant scene to the Sevika fight, the audience instead simply infers that the note tells Vi where Sevika likes to hang out.
To put it another way, I could remove the brothel scene, show it to a naive viewer, and they would never know that there was a missing scene unless I told them. That's how you know the scene is superfluous. Yes, it means that Vi doesn't interact with her friend at the brothel, but **this does not affect the story in any way whatsoever**.
Long story short, literally the only reason you think the note leads to the brothel is because the brothel scene exists. Since this reason doesn't exist if the brothel scene doesn't exist, we can remove the brothel scene without any continuity errors.
~~Concerning Silco and the resistance~~
Isn't the FIRST Jinx scene post-time skip literally one in which Silco and Co. is facing resistance from people who are clearly from Zaun? People are STILL resisting Silco.
When Vi mentions at the brothel that nobody fought against Silco, I reasonably conclude that she is not aware of the existence of Ekko's group yet. In fact, I'm not 100% clear if Cait put it all together after investigating the airship crime scene (she knows somebody fought Silco's goons, but she probably doesn't know who), or if she would trust Vi enough to let her in on what she found there.
~~Concerning Jinx and Silco~~
Since you missed what I was trying to say, let me be more direct. You use contextual clues to derive that Silco loves Jinx. HE NEVER ACTUALLY SAYS IT. Yes, the evidence is overwhelming to support the argument, but you are still making an inference based on that evidence.
The whole reason I brought it up is because you scoffed at the idea that you could to infer that the note leads Vi to Sevika because you implied that inference is a symptom to poor storytelling, which is silly.
Let me be absolutely clear, I'm not arguing that Silco doesn't love Jinx, as you seem to believe I am.
So if you'd like to understand and counter my points instead of demeaning them, I'd appreciate it.
I think Vi getting her name tattoed on her face has to do with her refusal to give up her name and accept being called by her inmate number.
Apparently that's not entirely uncommon for prisoners, to get a tattoo of their name as a symbol of defiance against being treated as a number.
Joke's on her, her prison number is 6 :^)
Holy shit I understand why Sitch shits on Doomer so much now
He does? In what way?
just to add another nail on the coffin of doomer's argument about the brothel scene, the guy in the fox mask is the "local cuisine" that mel's mom was partaking with. i know that's a negligible small detail but doomer saying the brothel scene can be removed is ridiculous. also sevika was not in the last drop that time. another reason how going to investigate in the brothel yielded vi some result.
Yeah it’s like he thinks it’s better for Vi without Caitlin for some reason to just CONVENIENTLY stumble upon Sevika playing a card game in some shady back ally in the city that only has shady back allies. While also complaining about convenience of Vi and Caitlyn’s meeting in the prison.
@@arturzinurov4781 exactly
Excuse you. His name is “gorgeous man”.
And COme one that brothel scene establishes that cait is lesbonios and she is good in a crisis. Thoose are important traits for later -.- .
Jesus how many bad takes did Doomer have in this one? So far this makes three.
One of the strangest things about Doomer’s positions is he assumes things that are not backed by the show at all. First, he assumes that Jayce and Viktor have other projects that they could showcase at Progress Day. If the duo had any other projects that they thought were ready, I’m fairly certain they would have provided that information to Heimerdinger unprompted.
Second, is he assumes that Caitlyn has literally any other leads to go off of. If she did then why don’t we see her looking into them? Why is there no indication that Caitlyn has anything better to do then try to ask an uncooperative Silco goon for information? It’s almost like the show is saying that this Cait’s only lead.
You are assuming just as much as Doomer, so let me correct your sentence for you: "If the duo had any other projects that they thought were ready, I ASSUME they would have provided that information to Heimerdinger unprompted." I would assume so as well and I would argue the assumption is reasonable and its therefore not a problem. Its still an assumption though and Doomer challenged that assumption, which is the proper thing to do when you break things down. After you highlight a potential problem, you can procedd to figure out whether it detracts from the quality of the work. I personally think the answer is that it does not, in this case.
"It’s almost like the show is saying that this Cait’s only lead." - This is false. The show clearly tells us there are other leads. Caitlyn is in possesion of a drawing that can blow the case wide open as soon as she shows it to ANYONE who recognize it and is willing to tell her about it (note that not only we know this but Cait tells Jayce she thinks this is so). She thinks its connected to the undercity so going there and asking people is a realistic lead to follow. You (and Mauler and the others) are making a false assumption that there are no other leads to follow. The correct argument to Doomers tism is simply: she is already there, she would have spent this time interviewing someone at the prison anyway, she might as well take 5 minutes to make sure this person who beat up her witness doesn't know anything and letting Vi out and bringing her along is probably not more risky than going to the undercity alone.
I love how Arcane did the rise of Darth Jinx better than the Star Wars prequels. Imagine if we got prequels as good at character as this... damn.
It’s weird how this show plays with your emotions, even though I was steadfast in Jinx being a morally reprehensible monster after killing all the people she has, when she regressed back into her Jinx persona after killing Silco I was genuinely sad… which is weird because I know what she’s done, but I was just so endeared to the character that seeing her choose to remain villainous was actually sad.
It’s kinda like what Batwoman stans think Alice is, but actually executed well.
These characters are exactly on par with the characters of Batwoman and the Disney Star Wars. Arcane is quite simply, SJW trash.
@@trashfire9641 ill take unsubstantiated and politically brainrotted comment for 500 Jim
@@gliscaradu1424 Dude, his name is a warning about the quality of his takes, lol
@@ARC--5973 damn, i got baited
"Nothing is more undoing, that a daughter.". Silco. To me, this is really just two father/daughter stories. Vander and Vi, and Silco and Jinx. Both end the same, with a father sacrificing everything for his daughter.
Didnt Silco give Jinx up to the council?
@@Jack-uy7ie No, he chose her over his life's work of an independent Zaun.
@@aztaline5593 When? Because I'm near the end and they've just announced peace with Silco in exchange for independence and all we get is his word at the end of a gun that he wouldn't give her up.
@@Jack-uy7ie Did you not see the look he had when Jaice told him he had to give up Jinx? Or Silco immediately telling him she worked for him, that it was his crimes not hers. Also the scene in which Silco vents about his frustrations in front of a statue of Vander, and finally understands that Vander gave up his fight in order to protect his daughters just like he's about to do. Now your last point is just confusing. Silco was literally shot by Jinx, and was dying yet his last words where to tell her that he truly cared about her, that he would never betray her. How is that "his words at the end of a gun?"
@@aztaline5593 I saw it as a desperate struggle to turn her against her sister. Though he probably did love her but not like Vander. Vander gave up his dream for those he loves and Silco is on the precipice of giving up those he loves for his dream.
Its a tale as old as time. Sacrifice the daughter to save the dream. Like Agamemnon sacrificing his daughter to the Gods to achieve the dream of conquering Troy.
Don't know how much attention this will get but I've had a bit of an odd realization. I think I know where the idea for Violets tatoo came from. Her prisoner number is 516. Her tatoo is a play on the numbers. She has five one and 6 all in one tatoo while also managing to make it into a shortened version of her name. That's my theory anyway. Still not sure why she put it on her face though.
Neat Theory
You know what... neat.
6
So, I feel we need to open a dictionary for Doomer. First, to show him what the definition of "Convenient" is, and second, to show him the word "Compromise," which is what people sometimes need to do when they don't trust each other like in Vi and Caitlin's case.
I feel like beating him with the dictionary would have about the same effect.
Guys I think Doomer just confused the word "convenient" with the word "logical." It happens all the time.
The thing is I think something can be both logical and convenient. Just because an event is convenient for characters to progress the plot, it doesn’t always mean the circumstances that caused said event are illogical. Even if it’s convenient, that does not make it inherently a bad thing. I think this plotline involving Vi and Cait follows cause and effect pretty well.
@@justincruz5720 This is not a good example of that. Yes something logical can be convenient. The droids in the escape pod not being blown up in the beginning of ANH is both logical (because they explain it) yet convenient (because it wouldn't be nonsensical for them to blow up the pod if explained well). But that's not the context I'm using the word logical in. Logical as in follows cause and effect. Something that is simple cause and effect is not convenient. Caitlin investigating this crime and meeting Vi is not convenient. Because that's the logical series of events. It would make sense for her to come across Vi. To use another star wars example, it's like saying "wow it's really convenient that Luke and Kenobi ran into Han Solo on tattooine." Like no, it's a common spot for smugglers and Han specifically works for Jabba. He was also on his way to pay/talk to him. Kenobi knew that the cantina was a good place to meet pilots who don't ask questions. Han desperately needs the money and Luke/Kenobi need a ride. It's not convenient because it's a natural progression of events. Its logical.
@@crazycanadian5592 I suppose that’s true. If there’s a legitimate reason why an event happens, a natural event should follow it and that is logic. However, if many things are left to chance and something works out because the story needs it to happen anyway, despite the odds, it is pretty convenient.
@@justincruz5720 yes, I've already said that. What happens with Vi and Caitlin is not left to chance or just because the plot needs it to happen. Caitlin finds Silco's wounded thug because she's investigating the scene. Marcus sends her away but she still wants to investigate because we know it's in Caitlins character to want to do good. She uses Jayce's position as councilor to get her into the prison so she can questions Silco's thug. She can't talk to the original thug because he's been badly beaten (Vi would definitely have a grudge against anyone working with Silco and beat him). She questions the person who beat him because the likelihood that it's related is high. When she questions Vi she learns that Silco is corrupt, Vi hates Silco's thugs, Vi has some knowledge of the symbol Caitlin shows her. Then Vi says Cailtin won't last in the undercity without her. Cailtin realizes this is true. With everything Vi seems to know plus Cailtin's own inexperience, Caitlin decides to take a risk and release Vi if it means she might be able to help. NONE of this is convenient. It's all completely natural progression. It's one of the furthest things from convenience.
@@crazycanadian5592 I completely agree with you. I think I was just unclear on what exactly the definition of the word “convenient” really is.
These breakdowns have been so fun and often insightful. Love all the little details and moments I've missed even on a second watch. Can't wait for the rest!
"often" lmao
The silco and jinx kiss doomer was talking about was when silco takes jinx to singed, but the kiss was not on the lips and most certainly had no romantic feelings behind it.
Yeah it was more like “it ok my girl, I am here” type of a kiss, especially when Singed brought up the idea that Jinx might die from the operation.
Singed drugs Silco and he says something along the lines of “I understand, I had a daughter, once.”
@@MistbornTaylor I grew up surrounded by daughters.
@@lolbuster01 is there anything more undoing than being surrounded by daughters?
To be fair...
Their relationship did bugged me and I was nervous during that scene. But the kiss seems not romantic so it was a relief.
I like how Jinx slowly loses her Powder features and becomes more like her champion self as the show goes on.
Happy Birthday Rags''''s
And Doomer is a tism... but I still like him.
The debates with Doomer over the prison scene and the brothel scene feel pretty pointless. Like even if he was correct it would be quite insignificant for the story. The actual debates felt tedious too, like he wasn't properly acknowledging the other host's arguments. It's odd because he was just fine during part 1 and gave some good commentary
I won't be defending his points strongly...but I think the Efap crew were very hyperbolic ",your totally wrong, you HAVE to give this up" when it came to points which were subjective. Some people might consider it weird that caitlyn went and talk to the person who assaulted her witness or that she would trust vi enough to let her out.
I really dislike how absolutist they were being on points that should have ended with a simple "I disagree".
@@ifonlyicouldstop Because Doomer insists that it's bad writing when it objectively isn't. People tried to argue with him on discord and it went about as well as it did in this EFAP.
@@ifonlyicouldstop
Yeah I think it's worth discussing why Caitlyn acts that way at the prison but they went on for so long about it because of how Doomer argued his points.
everyone hating on doomer now I guess you just want a circle jerk of people telling you it's the best show ever created
@@ultimateblaze23 Dude the man was being unreasonable, and as a fan of the show, his points are just stupid. It's not about us fans being pissed that doomer would dare critique this show, mauler had some critiques about the minigun, or some enhanced movement, strength for example, and people agreed with him.
I love how "I'm going to be more critical on this show because I love it" for doomer just translated to "im gonna have a ton of insanely bad takes"
It's actually hilarious how almost every "argument" that's Doomer vs the rest of the gang is Doomer making categorically wrong statements, everyone making solid rebuttals to said statement, Doomer's only response to said rebuttals being a nervous laugh and an occasional "but I disagree" before not addressing the problems and sidestepping to another non-issue. He does it so many times that sometimes I wondered if my audio was broken because he debates without counter-arguments and falls into the same pattern over and over again. Not his finest moment.
Savika: “To you, the day I helped betray Vander was the most important day of your life. For me, it was Tuesday.”
plus Sevika didn't even see it as her betraying Vander anyway, Vander wasn't doing his job as defender and leader of the undercity in her eyes.
@@johnyu4436 true. Making it even less of an issue on her end. It’s like pottery
@john yu right she had essentially a formal separation with Vander before she decided to support silko.
Losing an arm would make it pretty memorable.
She literally does the superman meme
“Vander had his chance”
Doomer strikes me like the stereotype people make of efap, the whole "its a plot hole if a character doesn't act 100% logically at all times"
Another comment about Doomer. So he is NOT ok with Vi and Caitlyn meeting in prison something that literally was set up from episode 3 and 4 and calls it “convenient”. But then he turns around and complains about a scene that sets up how Vi was able to track down Sevika playing in some shady back alley in the place where literally everywhere is a shady back alley and why Caitlyn was not with her. You can’t do that, you can’t complain about the convenience of scene that had been set up for an entire episode and then some to then say a scene should be cut and that they should’ve just stumbled into someone they are looking for in a goddamn city.
Doomer: Sure is CONVENIENT how people drink fluids when they're thirsty.
Doomer- Arguing conveniences instead of cause and effect.
Also wants to cut a scene that adds causes and would increase conveniences in the plot if absent. 🙃
3:06:00 imagine explaining 10 minutes what causation is and how well everything flows together and has naturally only one way to go and this guy is like a broken record "it's convenient"
Pls don't invite people who are incapable of understanding simple concepts
It makes complete sense that Caitlyn would go see Vi, even without knowing that Vi has anything to do with her case.
She came to the prison following a lead, her prisoner.
The prisoner is incapacitated and can't be interrogated at this time because he got beat up.
He got beat up by Vi because Vi hates his guts for being part of the group that caused Vander, Milo and Clagger's deaths and caused her to lose Powder.
Caitlyn, without knowing any of that, will still want to interrogate Vi just to see, if BY CHANCE, she knows anything relevant to her case, that is how investigations work. Vi knows something about the prisoner she was going to interrogate, clearly, or she wouldn't have beat him up.
Caitlyn goes to interrogate Vi.
Vi, by association with Vander, knows a lot about what Silco is up to and is very motivated to bring him down because of what he's done to her.
Caitlyn has reason not to believe Vi, but she is also out of options. She doesn't have time because she isn't even really an officer anymore and it's only a matter of time before that is a known fact, she can either take a chance with Vi right now, or do nothing and lose her chance forever.
Caitlyn takes her chance.
Thats just too coincidental
@@UnluckyBones13 There's nothing coincidental about it
Coincidental is when Rey and her gang of merry dumbasses happen to step in quicksand and sink below ground which just happens to lead them to the cave network they were looking for to find the object of their current search.
This? This is all cause and effect. Everything happens for a reason that is shown in the show and it all works together like clockwork
A lot of people also forget that Caitlyn is FIRED she doesn’t have the luxury to regroup and think of other leads it’s either go with Vi or she goes to the under city alone or she turns in her badge. Since we know she won’t do option 3 so it’s either she goes alone into Sketch City or with this person that knows her way in said Sketch City.
@@arturzinurov4781 Yep, like I said she's out of options. She technically doesn't even have permission to be in Stillwater and definitely no authority to release Vi.
But if she doesn't do it, she loses everything.
@@PatrixBest Caşt as a civilian gets a fuckin criminal from pirson and eveybody ok with that? Marcus doesnt say to Jayce U give your signature to a fuckn civilian and a criminal on the loose, Cait isn't your personal fuckn dedective, wait until council hears about this or cait's mom. Jayce didn't give order to Marcus like as soon as u see cait bring her right to me or something. Everybody is cool about all this. I'm pretty sure cait and vi go straight to jail after they go back to Pitover. They should start a search for them to arrestor something u know this is a serious matter since one of the council member's daughter is ther with a criminal.
Also I would assume Vi is silco's inside man, u know when one of them captured she silenses them. Or Silco give order to Marcus just the man u captured maybe is silco that incompetent we know he is not.
Happy to hear Trungo's is mentioned again.
Doomer really doesn't like being proven wrong.
Ok doomer
It definitely seemed to become his motivation for not agreeing with everyone.
I haven’t seen arcane but those facial expressions,my god well done,especially for a tv show.
I understood why doomer said what he said about the somewhat confusing aspect of Silco and Jinx's relationship because I was somewhat lost in the beginning on whether or not it was sexual or family based. But the prison discussion was weird to listen too. Doomer seemed like he was ignoring what everyone else was saying and just continuing on with his claims
Given Jinx's mental state it wouldn't surprise me if she had misplaced romantic feelings for Silco. I also think Silco as a fictional villan has more of a moral compas than Woody Allen and wouldn't date his adopted daughter.
In the show there is many points that imlpy father daughter relationship. AND one scene that is kinda sexual because jinx is unhinged.
I love the amount of discussion that goes into a single frame of "maybe Caitlin" being blown up. EFAP does not do false advertising! 😁
Way late to this but on the part about Vi getting her name tattooed on her face, she's been imprisoned for years without reason, written off and left to rot, whatever reason Marcus trumped up locked away, most likely referred to by a prison number and nothing else, the tattoo could be some small way of reclaiming her identity, reaffirming it for herself
3:44:10 I think the tattoo of her name might be a constant reminder of who she is. Not having rewatched the prison scene, I think they refer to her as a prisoner number. She isn't called by her name. So, being that she believes over the years that she's never getting out of prison, she would want a constant and permanent reminder that she is Vi. That's her name and identity.
It's a 6 because she was in prison for 6 years.
@@MrGofficK I saw someone say it is because she has lost 6 people, Mum, dad, Vander, Milo, Clagger and Powder.
@@Snowflash38 she didn't lose powder tho, powder's still alive, that doesn't make any sense. she was sentenced to 6 years, it's a prison tat. it's her time served.
First the "Silco - Jinx - made up kiss", then the superfluous discussion about Jayce release schedule for Hextech and then the prison scene discussion. I love this show and listen to most episodes, but this doomer guy frustrated the hell out of me
I disagree with him too but it does make the podcast more interesting instead of just listening to one opinion.
@@albanmarku6743 We always listen to 2,3 Openions even though all o f them are preaise. BUT it gets really frustrating when the ''openion'' Is a lie every single time... Feels in bad faith. You dont agree with lies geez.
@@albanmarku6743 I feel bad because in part one where he said he was making a critique video on Arcane I was kind of intrigued, like he said Arcane is good enough that you don't have to treat it with kid gloves. But if this stream is a preview of what his criticism will look like then nevermind lol. I actually went into the stream thinking the prison scene was awkward too but listening to how tismy his arguments sounded when challenged totally changed my mind. Then he looks petty when he just spends the last 1-2 hours sitting in complete silence when everyone else is having fun. Doesn't this guy do political debates and shit regularly? You would think he could handle a disagreement without sulking like a 7 year old.
It could be frustrating how adamant he was and how long it drug out, while being proven wrong time and again, but I think it's valuable to have descension, however incorrect, because someone will have those bad takes and it should be addressed.
The prison scene and the brothel scene are connected in purpose. In prison Vi argues that Caitlyn doesn't know what she is doing. The motivation to get her released isn't that Vi knows about Silco's operations because that would be a logical leap too far with the info Caitlyn has at that point. Vi's gambit that Caitlyn acts on is that she has the perspective needed to get Caitlyn some answers. The brothel scene has Vi doing multiple tasks at once including paying off the gambit she made with Caitlyn ; telling her how to get the information she wants. Vi gets the info for her own goal at the brothel. Only later on is it clear to Caitlyn that Silco IS the mastermind she is looking for. To Caitlyn, at the point of the brothel scene, Silco is just a suspect that Vi knows of and blames. Caitlyn is not actively fishing for info about Silco from Vi but applying the new techniques Vi is teaching to get info out of people from the lanes.
Theo was on the ball this whole stream lol
"I have many issues with this!"
"THEY'RE ALL WRONG"
Charles Dance on set of Dracula Untold, "I'm here to make your shit movie, a little bit better."
Charles Dance on set of Ghostbusters 2016, "I can't make this shit movie better, but I will act the shit out of it."
One thing I feel is forgotten too during the Doomer debate is that Cait was NOT operating with the jurisdiction of the Enforcers on this case. The Sheriff made it clear she's not on this case. She's on her own right now, with her only support coming from Jayce. Combined with a big sense of urgency and a pinch of naivety, her actions make plenty of sense in this regard. Maybe not the BEST choices, but entirely logical given the situation.
Was doomer the guy who said on the previous stream that he loved the show and that because it was a great show that he was going to have really strong criticisms for it? Like he said "I think this show is great, and THAT'S WHY it deserves to NOT be treated with baby gloves" 😂😂😂 And this was him bringing out the grown up criticisms? Lmao
Doomer making allegations and failing to bolster them with any defense is one of the only things I will remember from this EFAP. Barely even an argument, then just laughs and says “Okay”. I like doomer a lot but holy fuck
Everything Doomer says is convenient for Caitlyn talking to Vi, applies to the thug too. The thug could lie, he's dangerous and she knows he worked for Silco so he'd have even less of a reason to tell the truth and already said he can't say.
The thug is a bigger dead end and more useless to try and talk to.
And currently unavailable!
vi breaks that guys' jaw and all the ace dedectives here say she must hate sirco so enemy of my enemy?
Cait should immidieately assume that vi is sirco's inside man. U know when one of his man captured she silences them.
Ofc cait should talk to vi but getting her out of jail is nonsense and out of question. Beside how the hell that idiot guard can make the decision to let vi go with cait?He says since when is he a councelor. He never heard of him being a councelor. Also shouldn't be a ceremoni or something for these things and after that he can give orders right? Like when pools annunced current president kicked out. And how the fuck Jayce as a member can do whatever he wants. Isn't there council voting for these kind of things? Jayce fucks up other council member's profits and they just don't say anything why? Jayce is one of the member not a fucking king to make a decision he wants, right? If so that city should be in a fucking chaos. Every council member doing whatever they want without other members' vote or knowledge? Also why Marcus said to Jayce u give an order to a civilian not an enforer u know she is no longer an enforcer, she is just your security personel not your personal dedective? and never brought up again.
Other thing is cait's mom doesn't confront Jayce about this. She was against cait becoming an enforcer but she is ok that cait wonder of to undercity with a fuckn criminal?
Another thing is what was Vi's crime? Marcus went to undercity with sheriff chick(I don't know her name) and some enforcers then Marcus went back with Vi and others killed. Imagine people seeing Marcus coming back with Vi and they ask him where are the others? Marcus is like the sheriff and others killed, I alone escaped with a criminal. So what is her crime? 1) If Marcus say she is just petty thief, then what is wrong with Marcus while the sheriff is killed he just pick up a lowly criminal on the street? 2) If Marcus says she is the one break into Jayce's house, then how the fuck Jayce let her go out? 3)If Marcus says she killed the sheriff then whole another mess we have. That time skip didn't explained.
Another thing If getting someone out of prison this easy why didn't Silco asked Marcus get my man out of prison? Or Marcus u got one of my men just kill him, we know he doen't care about his men.
In a sigle scene we have this much issues and people wanna justify this stupid scene. This scene gives us that system is more retarded than ever cause nothing explained and watever we interpret makes it worse. If this was a bad show efap would analyzed it to death but since they love it they don't care I guess? These are minor things so don't worry it!ll be fine.
Caitlyn doesn't even know about Silco yet since Marcus is covering for him. Vi is the first time Caitlyn learns that he might have something to do with this.
@@liamjm9278 Oh yeah, well everything else still applies. He said he couldn't say who he worked for or he'd be killed.
@@liamjm9278 ok look at gurads pov ok. Cait didnot even know whi inmate 516 was so she prepared that paper before meeting vi who she doesnt even know exist and its for vi? Also signed by the guy the guard doesnt know if he is a councelor or not. Oh everything is good cait u can take vi. Nothing makes sense here.
Woohoo, time for part two!
A bit of silly criticisms brought up at the beginning. It's definitely not farfetched to believe they've refined teleporting in such a timeframe. Especially with the detail about the gear teleporting that was brought up, which I saw but didn't connect to that at first. And with Noxus invading, Noxus hasn't even really been established in the show by this point, and it may be much different from the Noxus we know in-game. Geopolitical issues aside, they might not be seen as a warring state or even a suspect of potential invasion.
Moving on to the first scene with Jinx, I think it highlights the biggest issue I have with the show. At times, she's just able to move unbelievably fast or appear instantly when she wants to. In this case, being able to attach six grenades in an incredibly short span of time. In the grand scheme of Arcane, it's not so bad, but it did start to get annoying at times.
I guess on the subject of Jinx, her characterization very much evoked Harley Quinn for me. It was only minorly cringey at times, and particularly only with some of her lines. Her trauma is portrayed well, and I really loved the distorted, scratchy visuals they used with her perspective and visions. And just like with other characters, her facial expressions are spot on and really show all the different emotions she's cycling through and her internal struggle. Overall it was well done, and I can't think of any instance I disliked when she was there.
On a different subject, Caitlyn's plot armor was one of my few notes I took when watching. Although this may be due to the editing, as was discussed, because it really seems like she's the one that gets blown back in the large explosion shot. Hair aside, it doesn't semem to make sense to show her and then cut to a different character getting thrown back. But regardless, that explosion was big enough that she should've been killed or SEVERLY wounded.
I really don't understand Doomer's argument againt Cait meeting up with Vi. Cait has a lead, then finds out that lead was assaulted. That could be something, may as well talk to whoever beat him up. Then, that person reacts very strongly to drawings found at the scene, which is a huge indicator that they may know something about the perpetrator. She can help with this investigation, so Cait takes a risk and gets Vi out of prison in hopes it will progress the case. This all seems to make perfect sense to me. Also, Cait is an enforcer so if Vi does try to escape or attack, she has plenty of power to send Vi straight back to her cell. I don't know, just sounds like a strange thing to argue so much against.
I think that's enough paragraphs for this comment no one will read. I can easily see how three EFAPs covered this, there's an incredible amount to talk about. I shall leave it with the following comment:
"You mean when he rails her raw?" - Jay
Doomer, you know when Nathius is calling you out, youve lost it
Frankly, I was disappointed with Nathius this stream, his trolling game wasn't nearly as on point as the last arcane stream.
@@marakrofitcac3425 I didn't even know he was there tbh. Not enough presence for this episode.
Nathius's trolling was not on point this EFAP lol.
@@helenline1790 Arcane is that good Fucker's concious gave out XD
That's a logical fallacy. It's something like, an appeal to popularity. ie. *this* person is calling you out, you *must* be wrong.
That broken, baby-brain thinking.
I wonder just how firm a grasp people have on the world-building of this show. The hex-gates are broken? Come on.
That killed me. “Of course, there was something to steal.” How convenient. Silly Discord chat.
2:30:52 Priorities.
2:54:12 Oof. Doomer, what take is this?
I really want to meet the animation team on this show. It really seems like they had fun making this, like it’s a passion project.
It's a celebration of all the new things that were invented... why wouldn't there be something to steal?
@@aztaline5593 Exactly.
“There’s always something to steal.” -Rags
I kinda wish there were at least two more scenes added.
One: The scene where Cait gets/forges the release documents. A lot could be put there about her being torn about it but taking desperate measures because she is running out of time.
Two: Scene of them walking through the city, towards the elevator, where they can explore each other's motives and distrust.
Basically, take some of the implicit stuff and make it more explicit.
I don't think the show needed to waste times with those since those are easy inferences. There is no room to put those scenes anyways.
@@za-ir5ni It's a Netflix series, they can literally add however many minutes they need, which, in fact, they did. Shortest episode has 39 minutes and longest has 44.
As for a waste of time, it's one of the core relationship in this season and it seems it will be going into season 2, spending a bit more time with them would not hurt.
For your second point, we don't need any of it. We get both Cait and Vi's backstories and their main motives before they meet. It would be redundant.
there is the 3rd one. A scene where we are explained what was Marcus's plan for Vi. Why did he went out of his way to hide Vi from Silco and even lie to him if all he was going to do is throw her in jail and throw away the key? There are some great theories out there that justify it BUT the show literally has nothing so we can never prove or disprove any of those theories
I was surprised this line wasn't brought up early in the prison discussion as a reason Caitlyn wanted to talk to Vi since Vi very presence in the prison is a curious irregularity for an investigator.
"I took a look at your file, there's no record of you or your crimes. What are you here for?"
Jinx: "I killed 6 enforcers lol"
The Audience: "Awe she's so quirky! I hope Vi can save her UwU"
Meh this technically started with enforcers killing their parents and not being in her right mind and being manipulated down a criminal path ... So I can see why, the killing of the firelights has less of an excuse tbh
@@cameronroy2129 When people make this argument i always think Alice in Batwoman. DO NOT PLS TY.
@@mertarican5456 Alice doesn't have as good a reason though, its on a scale. Reason for trauma yes but Alice has more of a choice later and its done worse in like every way, while Jinx was led to believe she only had one place to belong and killed her siblings by her own actions which affects someone way worse and more easily traumatizes.
To be clear both aren't good people but literally everyone is a result of their environment and that need to be taken into account
@@cameronroy2129 what do you mean alice has a "good" reason show thinks it is SİSTERLY BOND lol show is idiot. Alice lived in 10 years of torture that can fuck some one up. AND İT DOESNT MATTER they are all evil.
@@mertarican5456 being manipulated as a child is a fine reason man, its just the execution after and how far it goes sucks
Thanks to efap, and chat/guests initially, for recommending the show
I watched the part 1 and then started the show
then finished the show in one sitting
did not expect that level of writing quality
did not expect any feels from league of legends ffs
now I'm here and ready to hate on Doomer!
not an hour and a half in and I'm there!
3:01:25
"...someone so dangerous they they don't keep proper records of them..."
literally the opposite of what you do with dangerous people
4:40:25
Mauler: "is the big woman still here?"
Also, I have to mention that I absolutely believe VI should get her ass handed to her here. Sevika is more experienced, has a cybernetic arm and is getting regular shots of shimmer to give her a boost during the fight. Very little about the scene changes if you have VI get her ass kicked here. You can have Sevika taunt her about Jinx, and still have Cat show up and save her. I think its a narrative miss because the rematch later on doesn't really hit as hard for me because OF COURSE VI is going to win when she comes back with gauntlets, she pretty much already beat Sevika without any enhancements.
@@NimmelTheGreat
Did Sevika actually get an upgrade, or was it just another feature to her arm that she didn't use throughout the duration of the first fight? I can see what you mean by Sevika getting caught off guard, but idk man that arm really packs a punch. Like I said its not hard for me to believe Vi could beat that, its just that I think narratively it makes too much sense for her to get her ass kicked. Again, that way the rematch carries a little more weight.
Doomer be smokin weed too much
Ah, the part where Doomer makes points ranging from reasonable-ish (Caitlyn wouldn't have released Vi, I can at least see a reasonable argument) to let's go with not quite so reasonable :D
Although I was a bit annoyed with Fringy saying he was holding 2 positions, when what Doomer was doing was simply having problems with either option (I think it's a if/then statement).
Do better my Australian comrade, do better!
I respect Doomer standing up for himself and not ragequitting. I respect him for being willing to have bad takes to an entire audience and a live panel. I respect him for making the effort to convey his points.
Unfortunately that does not save him from the scorn I feel for him getting defensive rather than admit when he's wrong, for defending bad takes so ardently, and for being really bad at maintaining consistency in his points.
2:37:05 have you guys never heard of Muqy Thai? That's literally a thing in Muay Thai, kicking a tree with your shin to break the bone a little, and then it'll heal back stronger, and repeat. And yes, that does include punching brick Walls (to a degree). You know the ropes that Daredevil wears in S3? Those are Muay Thai ropes, and they will FUCK your hands UP, but that's what they're designed to do
We don’t know if Vi’s wearing Muay Thai ropes, and even if she is, a tree’s got more give to it than a solid brick wall. I think it would have been just as effective to have Vi shadow boxing, I don’t get why she was punching a solid brick wall with her bare hands.
OMG!! Jericho is also my favorite character in the show!! 🤣🤣🤣. No one ever seems to even mention him !
People misinterpreting Jinx and Silco's relationship as sexual/romantic is more telling of those people than the show. It's based off two things, I reckon:
1) Plain ignorance of how unhealthy father/daughter (or mother/son) relationships work
2) Wishful thinking on the part of people who are interested in incest as a fetish
We'll just dismiss #2 out of hand - you're always gonna get those people whenever something gets weird in a story. But I don't think people understand or WANT to understand that Silco & Jinx are a clear example of what happens when a father and daughter bond juuuuuust a little too closely.
This is what Freud was getting at in his discussions on the topic: if you're not careful during a child's development, wires can be crossed and boundaries can be blurred. It doesn't outright mean a mother/son or father/daughter are having sex, or even WANT to have sex. It just means proper boundaries have not been established, because the relationship is borne out of trauma and/or manipulation or some other factor.
Jinx is a sterling example of a "Daddy's Girl", a girl who can lean on her father for ANYTHING at any time, and Silco is the kind of father who will enable her worst qualities because he can't bear to punish her more than necessary, and he actually views her worst qualities as good qualities. Not to mention, their entire relationship rests on a lie that he's happy to keep buried under the surface.
So the fact that Jinx and Silco are uncomfortably close is not emblematic of a romance, it's a perfect representation of what happens when a father figure and daughter figure become so closely attached they begin to cross some boundaries that most of us would otherwise find distasteful or gross.
It's also worth noting that the writers/showrunners have said as much in interviews. They WANTED Jinx & Silco to make people a little uncomfortable.
Yes, thank you. However, I think it's way more telling when people think that Silco is a good father, even though the show is very clearly trying to say that their relationship, while genuine, is _extremely_ unhealthy. People can legitimately care for each other and their relationship still wind up being an utter fucking catastrophe. If anything, some of the very worst of toxic/ abusive relationships are built on two people who care very much for each other. Sometimes you have a situation where one or both of them are just mentally/ emotionally unwell, but sometimes you can get two people that just have personalities that cause them to bring out the worst in each other and themselves in a relationship. Like a chemical reaction, you might have two chemicals that are perfectly stable on their own but that will violently explode when they come into contact with each other.
But in whatever way a relationship might be bad, it doesn't mean that all parties involved can't love each other. Love is powerful, but powerful does not necessarily equal good. Love can cause people to selflessly sacrifice themselves to save another, but it can also cause people to fly into a murderous rage and commit horrible acts of savagery. I think people who think that Jinx and Silco's relationship is a positive example of a father/ daughter relationship are completely forgetting or just do not understand this basic fact. Jinx and Silco _obviously_ love each other very, very much, but their relationship is a train wreck happening in slow motion and everyone except the two of them seem to notice this. Vi, obviously, sees how Silco's influence has warped Powder. Sevika and Silco's underlings all see how their relationship is clouding his judgement and causing him to make mistakes that ultimately wind up being fatal.
And I think it's telling that Marcus, who is a decent example of someone who's ACTUALLY a good father, has his own daughter threatened by Silco so that Silco can protect HIS daughter. This is a perfect example of love driving someone to threaten to commit an act that they would 100% consider to be unspeakably evil if the tables were turned. We see Silco also not remotely giving a shit when the chembaron lady's son is killed, even though he completely lost his own shit when he was very nearly put in the same position an episode or two earlier. The fact that Silco is so callous about other people losing the very thing that he is so desperate to protect in his own life very clearly demonstrates that Silco is a horrible choice of person to raise... _anyone._
Some things that were lost on the Caitlyn in Stillwater scene.
Cait goes to see Vi because there's a chance she might know the detainee, either by being an old acquaintance, rival, or someone from the group trying to shut him up.
She trusts Vi might be a lead because she says all Cait needs to know why she doesn't trusts Enforcers, they work for Silco and routinely go there to rough her up, and when she tries to free her, the jailer asks if that's why she's there before reading the release papers.
Also, she knows Vi is there with no documentation inferring she was put there through unlawful means, corroborating her claim about the corruption among the Enforcers.
She's also hours away from being disbarred from the force forcing her to be quick about chasing that clue.
That nervous laugh when youve been proven wrong but cant admit it....DO BETTER DOOmER
It gave me Just Write vibes from when he debated Wolf and MauLer.
@@lordofthepizzapie9319 FOR the laughs yea but this felt like the Not so great debate guy overall because of the repeating and inabiity to accept thorough points. What a hill to die on
@@lordofthepizzapie9319 I was thinking the same exact thing and it irritated me so much
I don’t think Doomer would make a great cop. Oh no here is a homicide we should probably ask the neighbors if they heard anything “why? They would likely just lie to us and they don’t want to cooperate with us”
Here is the note that talks about meeting someone at the docks in about an hour from now we should go here “idk sounds too convenient for me”
But... he's been to prisons.
@@alexhayden219 that just proves my points. Not a every good cop.
Doomer "I am very familiar with the show" Media
Doom went insane this episode. 😂😂
Jinx going completely over the top at times actually fits with her character.
One of her biggest issues is her massive inferiority complex, this naturally leads to over-compensation.
This was *WELL* established in ep1, 2 and 3.
If you feel like nothing you do is really good enough youd either give up or purposely go completely all out.
Powders huge co-dependency and desperation for acceptance wont allow her to give up leaving her with only one option.
Maxing out.
Add severe PTSD, probably a borderline diagnosis and the fact that they live in a world were death and pain lurks around every corner, a world that are essentially in a cold civil war, there is nothing anyone can say to me that will make me feel its not perfectly logical for her character to be like this.
People complaining about this have never met a person with PTSD, this is an eerily accurate portrayal of some people I know.
Sure, theyre not psycho killers, but the way their triggers and paranoia work and their tendency to over react etc is very similar.
People who complain about this are people who have lived sheltered lives and never had a real problem.
Anyone who had a rough life will recognize this behavior to some extent, either from living it or from knowing someone who has said issues.
Is there any reason why Caitlyn WOULDNT question the person who just beat the crap out of her best and only lead? At worst she learns nothing and at best she learns LITERALLY ANYTHING. Why would Vi be the only one to beat him up? Because he’s huge and imposing and he works for Silco, so anyone who would pick a fight with him has to be both extremely confident in their ability and unafraid of Silco, whether due to ignorance or bravado. Not a lot of people would fit both those criteria. Why would Caitlyn trust her? She barely does at all. She just knows that Vi knows more than she’s letting on, and Vi is her only other lead from there. Again, at worst she lets some nobody trencher escape and at best she learns LITERALLY ANYTHING.
I actually liked Doomer vi/cait part. Made me appreciate Arcane even more. Ye it was a little bit too long but you basically went through everything I would say if I were there talking with you and that just feels soo satysfing. Sometimes you guys miss some good arguments (mostly cause you prove a point with other) or details and i feel incomplete. For me this series could be 4h per episode.
Lil somethin somethin about explosions. It's the compression wave and the objects caught in the compression wave that tend to kill. Moving away from the source can have a huge effect on how much force the body must absorb from the wave. Also whatever debris if any that hits the body can be the determining factor of death.
In many explosions, 2 people standing exactly next to each other, 1 died and the other survived without long term injuries.
This is why scenarios are drawn up when setting up a weapons strike and possibilities of casualties are assessed. Even at the point of detonation, there is often a possibility of survival. But someone standing in say between 2 large windows 20 yards away have lower chances of survival as the shattering glass becomes shrapnel which becomes the cause of death.
Doomer had the worst takes this episode KEK
Victor was not sidelined, Victor retreated from the spotlight.
He is not a victim of this, he chose this.
I think Doomer had half an argument for Cat putting too much trust in Vi. The part that jumped out to me is when Vi dashed away down to the undercity. If i had just released someone who had been imprisoned for 5+ years i would be a lot more sus or even frantic if they immediately ran the fuck away. If Vi had wanted she could have just been free at that point and that’s enough to at least worry Caitlyn.
Missed this EFAP and now that I'm watching I really wish I could cut about an hour out of it half-way through. God damn Doomer, I know you didn't like getting nailed for the Jinx/Silco kiss thing (which was weird, creepy, and spoke volumes about where your mind was), but don't take it out on us by choosing to die on this molehill over Caitlyn releasing Vi from prison. There is nothing in this scene that does not follow with either the characters, the story, or the world.
You appear to be conflating "convenience" with "cause and effect". Following the script isn't necessarily convenience if how you got there was logically consistent with the world and the characters. Two examples: A *contrivance* would be if Marcus just happened to be talking with the warden at the prison about Vi and Caitlyn overheard the whole thing while attempting to talk to the prisoner from the airship. A *convenience* would be Vi's records (if they existed
Here's the thing... even if Caitlyn was being shit-talked...
Another important detail that they forget to mention is that Caitlyn asks the records of Vi, and nothing of a real criminal record is present for her, as she also gets into conflict with people there... which also goes with Caitlyn's sense of justice, that people who are not accused of a crime shouldn't be locked up or she just generally doesn't like women being beat us by men... and might've made it more apparent for her to release Vi because of those reasons...
which is odd because Vi was arrested for a crime. the robbery and bombing of Jayce's old lab. a crime the council was desperate to find a culprit for. people saw her fleeing. Jayce saw her at the scene. the manhunt that followed even resulted in the death of the former lead enforcer. she should be a well know terrorist. not a prisoner no one knows.
@@imp360 actually Vi was not arrested for the crimes of blowing up and stealing the lab. Silco made Marcus say they ran off with Vander never to be seen again, also Silco thinks she is dead as well. Marcus puts her in prison but does not list her crime because then Silco would be able to find out if they pinned the crime on someone.
@@PDD-co6yo Then who did they pinned these crimes? The council wouldn't give in on that matter but the time skip and nobody cares. Also Jayce after given the permision to study arcane he will release that some of the unstable arcane stones missing and he will ask them about the missing stones right?
Let's just say Marcus didn't list Vi's crimes to do that only warden and himself know about Vi right? When Jayce signed documents for her release the criminal nobody knows about, shouldn't warden contact MArcus immidiately before releasing her? or Marcus should say if somebody asks about Vi immidiately inform me and I will be there right away. cuz realeasing Vi will fuck Marcus up. Marcus should be extra careful about this.
Vander.
I’m all for debates and long conversations that’s why I’m here but damn there were some parts that were hard to listen through