I believe I invented this back in 1973. I used it as one of the ways to identify my hand built wheels. I had never seen anyone else doing this until many years later and as you now it eventually caught on!
Thanks for watching and commenting, Corey. 1973 isn't that long ago in terms of wheel building. The legendary builder Spence Wolfe at Cupertino Bike Shop was custom building wheels starting in 1953. And if we go back further, there were famous builders of wood rim wheels for track racing in the 1930s. A lot of the old timers aren't around anymore to ask, unfortunately. So, I don't know who might have come up with the idea first. I do believe what you say, that you came up with it yourself and I'm sure you doing it passed along the idea to others who admired your work. So you deserve props for that!
@@JimLangley1 Its impossible to know if there wasn't someone who came up with the idea before I did. But I was in the bike business for decades and had never seen this done before I started doing it with every set of wheels. I would definitely say this was not my greatest contribution to wheel building. That was something far more important. I do believe I started what eventually became a trend among wheel builders that continues to this day, and that was my symmetrical lacing pattern. I started doing that also in 1973. Years later this new pattern was acknowledged in Jobst Brandts book "The Bicycle Wheel" as a superior way of building wheels. Many wheel builders around the world use this pattern today.
@@coreymihailiuk5189 Thanks for sharing more about your wheel building trend-setting, Corey. If you want to tell what shop you worked at maybe some of your customers will see this and send a follow-up reply to you. Thanks again for watching and commenting!
@@JimLangley1 Jim. I'm a student of Bill Mould I had the pleasure to shadow him for one day this past August. You and Bill are very great instructors. Old school smart, and modern-day efficient. I'm a college teacher, who is gearing up for retirement, with my feet in a LBS. Part time sales, but I love building wheels. I'm not fast, but thorough.
Great video! I lace the wheel with all the heads-outs first. Having the label aligned with the spoke hole is a useful reference point for me to remember which way to twist the hub when it's time to start putting the crossing spokes in. I never went to so much trouble to get it exactly right though :)
Glad you liked the video, Ben and thanks for commenting! Yes, it's a little fussing around to get the label centered but it's one of those things that people in the know about wheels look for. And, I think it's fun and satisfying when you sight through the valve hole and see that you nailed it. Thanks again and happy wheel building!
The logo is a quick way to find the valve hole. There's lotsa vertical things when you're hunting the valve on the rim, especially at night. I find my spot on the hub, I look up, and bingo. You should also align your tyre logo with the valve. It makes it easy to identify punctures in the tube with the tyre.
@@RadioSnivins Thanks a lot for watching and for making those great points, Radio! In case any readers don't fully understand your point about finding punctures, I'll explain a little more. As long as you line up the tire label right at the valve, you know the orientation of the tire. Then if you get a flat and the piece of glass or wire is still in the tire or you already took it out and know where the hole is in the tire; you can use that "marker" as a way to find the hole in the tube. This is really helpful when you have a slow leak that isn't easy to find. To find it, you just hold the tube inside the tire with the valve right at the label on the tire. With the tube in the tire like this, you look at the tube right at the spot where the glass or wire or hole was/is in the tire to find the hole in the tube. Because the tube can go into the tire in one of two directions, be sure to try it in that other possible position if you don't find the hole in the tube on the first try. The hole in the tire will be right where the hole in the tube will be. Thanks again for the tips, Radio!
There should be a specific hole, in relation to the center of the label, for each spoke quantity/lace pattern combo, where you start the pattern, that will always end up with the correct placement. I still think this is a great idea, allowing you to double check your placement, prior to getting deep into the build. I don’t know where that hole would be but I can’t believe that someone would do this by trial and error building countless rims, I rewinded the video to the beginning of the process twice, thinking I must have missed dude saying where to place the first spoke!😵💫
Thanks for watching and the most excellent comment, Benjamin! Let me explain a little more please. You said 'there should be a specific hole' and there IS a specific hole, but you have to find it because it changes on different hubs and rims and spoke-cross patterns. That's why I use and teach the trial-and-error method. It's the one way to get it right every time no matter what rims, hubs and spoke crosses you build with. The thing is though that if you are building with the same hubs, rims and cross pattern again and again, as with the countless rims you mentioned - then you would usually only do the trial and error with the first wheel you built. You would then know where to put that first spoke and you wouldn't need to use trial and error on the next same wheel you build because you would know. I hope this helps explain and thank you again for the great question.
Another great explanation. Thanks, Jim Are there any other indicators of professionalism that you would notice when looking at a wheel? Assuming it's true, round, and centered also.
Yes, MR MR, you would look for a correct spoke lacing pattern. Are there parallel spokes at the valve stem? Did every spoke get interlaced? You would look at the spokes at the hub and the nipples at the rim to make sure that the spokes are bedded in to the hub, that the spokes are straight (no slack/looseness in them) and that the nipples are leaving the rim holes at "natural" angles that match the spoke orientations. Checking spoke tension somehow is another key test. If a tension meter isn't available, I would squeeze the spokes and feel for if they're tight enough to hurt the hands a bit from squeezing - one sign that they are tight and likely to stay that way. Those are the types of checks you can do. Here is another of my videos and in this one I inspect a pair of wheels ruclips.net/video/Wb73si7WD-k/видео.html . Hope this answer is helpful. Thanks for watching and asking a great question!
Ah it's one of those things that one may think why bother until job is finished and on the bike aligned incorrectly which will then irritate one every time you see it - like forever. It might perhaps be better not knowing that this is a thing ;-)
Genius, love these videos & aligning the label with the valve is a really class touch, like lining up the label on the tire with the valve! Quick questions Jim, I have an 8 way spoke tightening tool which I don't like, I would like to buy the Park Tool SW series, how do I determine which size I would need? is it a case of measuring the nipple across the flats? Is it one PT wrench for each size? Thanks for your time...
Thanks a lot for watching, Graham and for asking a great question. It turns out that if you buy quality spokes & nipples, such as from DT Swiss (my preference); Sapim, Pillar, etc., that they all use 3.23mm wide nipples - which is Park Tool's SW-0 spoke wrench - or I think of it as their Black spoke wrench since they use color coding amzn.to/3kbAoxb And yes, to measure a nipple you use a caliper to measure the width of the flats. Now, as you fix and work with a wider assortment of wheels, you will run into all the sizes of nipples - which is what that 8-way tool you have was made for. Those tools work nicely as long as you take care to always fit the right slot to the nipples you're turning. If not, it's easy to try to turn with too wide a slot and end up rounding a nipple - a bad mistake since it means a new nipple is needed. I have spoke wrenches with multiple sizes like yours and I use them just fine (like this one amzn.to/3lijnTi ). However, if you end up working on lots of wheels with different nipple sizes, it's easier to have the right size for each nipple size, since there's no risk of using the wrong slot on the multi-size tool. For this, I have all 5 of Park's SW spoke wrenches so I can use the correct one. Some nipple sizes you rarely see unless you work on bikes with heavy duty spokes, such as work bikes or certain e-bikes. So you might not need those wrenches. You will likely run into wheels with 3.45mm nipples, which take Park's SW-2 spoke wrench (Red) amzn.to/3pkEas7 - those nipples were used a lot on Japanese bicycles in the 1980s. For more, here's a comprehensive article I think you'll enjoy about spoke nipple and spoke wrench sizing: www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/spoke-wrench-tool-selection I hope this helps with your wheel work and thanks again, Graham!
@@RadioSnivins thanks for pointing out the Spokey - I have used that spoke wrench, too and it has lots of fans that love it. Here's a link to it on Amazon: amzn.to/38uL4mH Thanks RadioSnivins!
@@RadioSnivins Strangely enough the Spokeys never showed up in my initial search, I did find them using Jim's link though. Amazon UK appeared to be out of stock of the PT SW series, as with pretty much everything else bike related! I did manage to get hold of the PT SW-7.2 Tripple Spoke Wrench Tool. Not tried it yet but feels nice & a lot heavier than the cheaper options.
I've always utilized Jim's recommendation for alignment of hub label and valve stem hole for my builds. However, in the course of my current front wheel build for a vintage resto, the first gen D-A (7400 series) rear hub label was perfectly aligned with the MAVIC GEL-280 "red diamond" label (and, thereby, rim joint). So I have to wonder whether rim and hub label (v valve stem hole and hub label) alignment was ever a convention among wheelbuilders of the era. Your thoughts?
Thanks for watching, Steve! Too bad RUclips doesn’t allow posting photos so we could be sure we’re on the same page. But from what you wrote, my best understanding is that you decided to align the seam label on the rim instead of the valve hole on the rim? That usually means the hub label will be hidden when the rim label is visible. So it’s not the preferred alignment I explain in the video and not what we did back then - at least the wheel builders & mechanics I looked up to. But, it’s your wheel and you should build it however you like best. Hope this is helpful. Thanks again!
@@JimLangley1 Yep, your interpretation of "label to label" alignment is correct and certainly not my choice. But that's the way the existing rear wheel in this vintage resto was built and so I'm kinda constrained to matching it for the front wheel build. All of my builds from scratch have hub label aligned with the valve stem hole... just like the video! I did see some forum chatter about "label to label" alignment but it looked as though it was from Britain and not by any wheel builders that I recognize.
Well, the video camera didn't want to look through it, either, Jonathon. It took quite a few tries to get the shot in my video. But, it's easy to see by eye. Thanks for watching and the comment!
Looks like modern hubs' holes are straight-drilled, meaning they are agnostic about where you place your head-out and head-in sets of spokes. Am I right in that conjecture? That would further suggest, without pre-machined "shoulders", needing to take pains to "bed" new spokes thoroughly lest you induce early fracture or fatigue. Secondly, if I am correct, then could you reasonably lace a replacement spoke (even if just temporarily) "the wrong way" and safely make it home? That was my inclination to try today on a long ride, when I busted a head-in spoke on the disc side of my rear wheel -- the kind that to reinsert normally you'd have to remove the wheel, unbolt the brake disc, lace the spoke off the bike, and tension everything on the stand. Whereas, if I just treated it like a head-out spoke, I could have accomplished all that on the road. Would that endanger the flange itself? Thoughts?? FYI, this hub is an Enviolo CVT, with a huge diameter, so on a 27.5" rim, the spokes come out only 238 on the disc side and 236mm on the drive side.
Thanks for watching and the great comment, VideoNOLA. There are so many hub types today that you can run into all kinds of drillings, but as far as conventional J-bend hubs, yes they are usually drilled to accept the spokes any way you prefer to insert them. As to if you can put a spoke in in a way that's not technically correct and ride on the wheel without harming the hub, the answer is yes as long as you can get the spoke into the hub. Traditionally, tourists have carried what we called emergency spokes for this purpose. These special spokes have the heads cut off and the end of the spoke is bent into a sort of Z shape. This lets you push the spoke into any open hole on either side of the hub to be able to replace a broken spoke without removing the wheel and keep on riding. I'm working on a video about these spokes and a forgotten tool that I have to make them. So please watch for that. Here's a link to my bike website where you can see the tool and read a little bit about it and emergency spokes: www.jimlangley.net/wrench/espoketool.html
I often put the wheel valve in line with the floor ready to pump up. If the label is 180 Deg from the valve it can be seen when viewed from above, would this be better?
Thanks for watching and the interesting question, Phil. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "would this be better?" So I need to ask better for what? Because the video is all about aligning the hub label with the rim label when building wheels. This is a common practice among pro wheel builders. It's fine if you want to do it your way. It doesn't affect the strength of the wheel. But I wouldn't say there's anything "better." I'm happy to explain more if you want to clarify the question. Thanks!
Estimado Jim. Perdón si el tema no es precisamente esto pero está relacionado. Hasta cierto punto me desconcierta cuando centro una rueda si, por ejemplo, tengo que desplazarla hacia la derecha pero los radios de ese lado están muy tensos y ya no se pueden ajustar más y, si quiero aflojar los opuestos, entonces, hallo que estos ya están excesivamente flojos. Otro tanto me sucede con los saltos, o sea que si, por ejemplo, un tramo está contraído hacia el centro y hay que aflojar los radios, ya ese tramo los tenga flojos, o al revés que haya que contraer dicho tramo pero que los radios ya estén muy ajustados; la consulta es ¿que hacer? (postdada: asimismo me ha sucedido que consigo un centrado aceptable pero con radios tensos y otros flojos). Muchas gracias y saludos cordiales.
Gracias por ver mi video Luis. ¡Gran pregunta! En algunas ruedas, solo tienes que aceptar que los radios derechos están súper apretados y los radios izquierdos del lado suelto siempre estarán sueltos. Cuando está alineando ruedas, a veces, para hacerlas redondas, termina con radios muy apretados y algunos radios más flojos, y eso está bien. Siempre que la rueda quede recta y redonda, no es un problema. Si tiene una situación en la que los radios se aflojan más y la rueda no es confiable, usaría adhesivo para roscas en los radios sueltos para que la rueda sea confiable. También hay diferentes diseños de llantas que igualan la tensión de ambos lados. Por ejemplo, una llanta compensada. En esa llanta, los orificios de los radios están desplazados hacia un lado para nivelar la tensión. En conclusión, siempre que la rueda sea redonda y verdadera y se mantenga así, tener algunos de los radios un poco más flojos es lo que tiene que ser. Espero que esto responda a tu pregunta y gracias de nuevo.
@@JimLangley1 Muchas gracias querido Jim, su respuesta ha sido verdaderamente reveladora para mí. Le envío un saludo afectuoso desde la distante Argentina.
Hi Jim, great videos, thanks! @4:30 you twist the hub counterclockwise. The Park tool video twists in the clockwise direction (video link below). Is it just arbitrary because there are spokes angled in each direction? Thanks! ruclips.net/video/X5gs00ttvdg/видео.html
Hey, thanks for watching, George - glad you like the video! It's not arbitrary. You want to twist the hub in the correct direction to be certain you have parallel spokes at the valve stem when the wheel is fully laced up. It's pretty easy to make the mistake of twisting it the wrong way. If you watch my wheel building video, I demonstrate a simple lacing method where you twist the hub with only the first 8 spokes in the wheel (assuming you're lacing a 32 spoke wheel). I have found that if you do it this way you will rarely get confused because with so few spokes in the wheel, it's easy to see what you're looking at. If you go to this time in my video ruclips.net/video/XUqul03hbZ8/видео.html, I explain the different types of rims, which is important when putting in the first spokes so that you start correctly. Now if you go to this time in my video ruclips.net/video/XUqul03hbZ8/видео.html I explain the twist direction and what you're looking for. I think that will make it clear. Please let me know if you have any questions, happy to help. Thanks again!
Thanks for watching and for sharing your opinion, David. I would just like to point out that I wouldn't have made the video if I wasn't sure (from many years of building wheels professionally) that there are lots and lots of consumers and cyclists who care a lot that their wheel builder took pains to get everything perfect about the wheels they're spending money on - including the aesthetics. It's come to be what's expected from pro builders, too - so if you don't do it, you will likely get complaints about your work and that's never a good thing when you're in the business of pleasing your customers. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
@@JimLangley1 I have a story to tell. Some background to this is that I'm an industrial engraver - toolmaker that runs his own business for the past 35 years. Precision and striving for perfection is everything in my trade.. so here goes : in 2019 I order through my LBS a set of 28 hole DT 29" XM481's with Hope Pro4 hubs, red rear and black front for my '18 carbon Devinci Django ( made with love in Quebec Canada where I'm living ) Then print out and have a gander at Roger Musson's .pdf book while this is going on. Copuler days later LBS calls, parts are all in, we decide to build with black J bend DT doubled butted 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes 3 cross on the 28 hole rims ( my spec. ) with black ProLoc brass nipples. I mentioned that the logo should be lined up with the valve hole and LBS instantly had trouble doing this on account of not being used to work with higher end angular drilled rims. Other issue is that I was unsure if the valve should aim at the Pro4 or Hope logo. Ended up being the LBS pointed at the Pro4 etched logo which I did not like the look of once built. The LBS assured me that he could always build them back up with the valve hitting the Hope logo for the next season. What followed was a can of worms of unbelievable proportions resulting in a damaged relationship with my LBS and having them completely built up again using a more competent wheel builder elsewhere. Turns out only the rear hub had witness marks and were so minor that a dab of red sharpie to mask them. With the cassette and brake rotor bolted back up it's hardly detectable now if at all. What saved me in this instance was the fact that I was so disgusted with the initial build I hardly used the wheel set.. As for the front hub we lucked out, the spoke order witness marks fit the new wheel builders pattern ( initial builder was off one hole compared to rear build ) So I now have a set of properly bespoke high end wheels that will last years to come according to industry standards and common practice. The wheels are now built up with custom cut and thread rolled ( Morizumi Masakazu thread rolling machine ) black Sapim Race double butted spokes and Sapim Polyax double square with their Secure Lock thread retention nipple. This is a wheel set that I can be proud of and put through their paces with 100% confidence in their functionality and professional appearance. Shame some people don't enjoy reading technical information nor have the ability to understand everything involved in building a proper higher end quality set of bicycle wheels. ;-)
★ WATCH this video next on ways to keep the spokes tight when building wheels ruclips.net/video/z4FKL95x6DE/видео.html
Thank you for explaining this tiny detail, that makes a handbuild wheel perfect.
You're most welcome, Christian. Thank you for watching and commenting!
I believe I invented this back in 1973. I used it as one of the ways to identify my hand built wheels. I had never seen anyone else doing this until many years later and as you now it eventually caught on!
Thanks for watching and commenting, Corey. 1973 isn't that long ago in terms of wheel building. The legendary builder Spence Wolfe at Cupertino Bike Shop was custom building wheels starting in 1953. And if we go back further, there were famous builders of wood rim wheels for track racing in the 1930s. A lot of the old timers aren't around anymore to ask, unfortunately. So, I don't know who might have come up with the idea first. I do believe what you say, that you came up with it yourself and I'm sure you doing it passed along the idea to others who admired your work. So you deserve props for that!
@@JimLangley1 Its impossible to know if there wasn't someone who came up with the idea before I did. But I was in the bike business for decades and had never seen this done before I started doing it with every set of wheels. I would definitely say this was not my greatest contribution to wheel building. That was something far more important. I do believe I started what eventually became a trend among wheel builders that continues to this day, and that was my symmetrical lacing pattern. I started doing that also in 1973. Years later this new pattern was acknowledged in Jobst Brandts book "The Bicycle Wheel" as a superior way of building wheels. Many wheel builders around the world use this pattern today.
@@coreymihailiuk5189 Thanks for sharing more about your wheel building trend-setting, Corey. If you want to tell what shop you worked at maybe some of your customers will see this and send a follow-up reply to you. Thanks again for watching and commenting!
Thanks a million Jim! You have answered a question I had. Good work!
I'm glad my video helped you out, Denis! Thanks a lot for watching and the nice comment!
Not building any wheels at the moment, but I love watching these videos! Thanks for sharing your expert advise Jim!
You're welcome, Frank! Thanks for watching and your comment!
thank you!!! i thought i was the only one who wanted this. haha
You're very welcome Scott! Thanks a lot for watching and commenting!
Great explanation. And, simple, yet straightforward tip. Especially before you lace it up and realize that the label is off center.
Thanks for watching and commenting, Richard, appreciate it and I'm happy you like the video!
@@JimLangley1 Jim. I'm a student of Bill Mould
I had the pleasure to shadow him for one day this past August. You and Bill are very great instructors. Old school smart, and modern-day efficient. I'm a college teacher, who is gearing up for retirement, with my feet in a LBS. Part time sales, but I love building wheels.
I'm not fast, but thorough.
OG pro tip, appreciate it!
I'm happy you enjoyed the tip, Ethan! Thanks a lot for watching and commenting and happy wheel building!
Loving these videos!
Happy to hear it, Andrew! Thanks for watching and for the great comment. Appreciate it!
Great video! I lace the wheel with all the heads-outs first. Having the label aligned with the spoke hole is a useful reference point for me to remember which way to twist the hub when it's time to start putting the crossing spokes in. I never went to so much trouble to get it exactly right though :)
Glad you liked the video, Ben and thanks for commenting! Yes, it's a little fussing around to get the label centered but it's one of those things that people in the know about wheels look for. And, I think it's fun and satisfying when you sight through the valve hole and see that you nailed it. Thanks again and happy wheel building!
The logo is a quick way to find the valve hole. There's lotsa vertical things when you're hunting the valve on the rim, especially at night. I find my spot on the hub, I look up, and bingo. You should also align your tyre logo with the valve. It makes it easy to identify punctures in the tube with the tyre.
@@RadioSnivins Thanks a lot for watching and for making those great points, Radio! In case any readers don't fully understand your point about finding punctures, I'll explain a little more. As long as you line up the tire label right at the valve, you know the orientation of the tire. Then if you get a flat and the piece of glass or wire is still in the tire or you already took it out and know where the hole is in the tire; you can use that "marker" as a way to find the hole in the tube.
This is really helpful when you have a slow leak that isn't easy to find. To find it, you just hold the tube inside the tire with the valve right at the label on the tire. With the tube in the tire like this, you look at the tube right at the spot where the glass or wire or hole was/is in the tire to find the hole in the tube. Because the tube can go into the tire in one of two directions, be sure to try it in that other possible position if you don't find the hole in the tube on the first try. The hole in the tire will be right where the hole in the tube will be. Thanks again for the tips, Radio!
*That's the perfect trick!!*
Thanks, Reborn BMW - happy you like it! Appreciate you watching and the nice comment.
There should be a specific hole, in relation to the center of the label, for each spoke quantity/lace pattern combo, where you start the pattern, that will always end up with the correct placement.
I still think this is a great idea, allowing you to double check your placement, prior to getting deep into the build.
I don’t know where that hole would be but I can’t believe that someone would do this by trial and error building countless rims, I rewinded the video to the beginning of the process twice, thinking I must have missed dude saying where to place the first spoke!😵💫
Thanks for watching and the most excellent comment, Benjamin! Let me explain a little more please. You said 'there should be a specific hole' and there IS a specific hole, but you have to find it because it changes on different hubs and rims and spoke-cross patterns. That's why I use and teach the trial-and-error method. It's the one way to get it right every time no matter what rims, hubs and spoke crosses you build with.
The thing is though that if you are building with the same hubs, rims and cross pattern again and again, as with the countless rims you mentioned - then you would usually only do the trial and error with the first wheel you built. You would then know where to put that first spoke and you wouldn't need to use trial and error on the next same wheel you build because you would know. I hope this helps explain and thank you again for the great question.
Thanks :)
You're welcome Panda, thank you for watching!
Another great explanation. Thanks, Jim
Are there any other indicators of professionalism that you would notice when looking at a wheel? Assuming it's true, round, and centered also.
Yes, MR MR, you would look for a correct spoke lacing pattern. Are there parallel spokes at the valve stem? Did every spoke get interlaced? You would look at the spokes at the hub and the nipples at the rim to make sure that the spokes are bedded in to the hub, that the spokes are straight (no slack/looseness in them) and that the nipples are leaving the rim holes at "natural" angles that match the spoke orientations. Checking spoke tension somehow is another key test. If a tension meter isn't available, I would squeeze the spokes and feel for if they're tight enough to hurt the hands a bit from squeezing - one sign that they are tight and likely to stay that way. Those are the types of checks you can do. Here is another of my videos and in this one I inspect a pair of wheels ruclips.net/video/Wb73si7WD-k/видео.html . Hope this answer is helpful. Thanks for watching and asking a great question!
Ah it's one of those things that one may think why bother until job is finished and on the bike aligned incorrectly which will then irritate one every time you see it - like forever. It might perhaps be better not knowing that this is a thing ;-)
"Like forever," is right, Adam ;-) Too funny. Thanks for watching and the great comment, made me laugh.
Genius, love these videos & aligning the label with the valve is a really class touch, like lining up the label on the tire with the valve!
Quick questions Jim, I have an 8 way spoke tightening tool which I don't like, I would like to buy the Park Tool SW series, how do I determine which size I would need? is it a case of measuring the nipple across the flats? Is it one PT wrench for each size?
Thanks for your time...
Thanks a lot for watching, Graham and for asking a great question. It turns out that if you buy quality spokes & nipples, such as from DT Swiss (my preference); Sapim, Pillar, etc., that they all use 3.23mm wide nipples - which is Park Tool's SW-0 spoke wrench - or I think of it as their Black spoke wrench since they use color coding amzn.to/3kbAoxb And yes, to measure a nipple you use a caliper to measure the width of the flats.
Now, as you fix and work with a wider assortment of wheels, you will run into all the sizes of nipples - which is what that 8-way tool you have was made for. Those tools work nicely as long as you take care to always fit the right slot to the nipples you're turning. If not, it's easy to try to turn with too wide a slot and end up rounding a nipple - a bad mistake since it means a new nipple is needed.
I have spoke wrenches with multiple sizes like yours and I use them just fine (like this one amzn.to/3lijnTi ). However, if you end up working on lots of wheels with different nipple sizes, it's easier to have the right size for each nipple size, since there's no risk of using the wrong slot on the multi-size tool. For this, I have all 5 of Park's SW spoke wrenches so I can use the correct one. Some nipple sizes you rarely see unless you work on bikes with heavy duty spokes, such as work bikes or certain e-bikes. So you might not need those wrenches.
You will likely run into wheels with 3.45mm nipples, which take Park's SW-2 spoke wrench (Red) amzn.to/3pkEas7 - those nipples were used a lot on Japanese bicycles in the 1980s. For more, here's a comprehensive article I think you'll enjoy about spoke nipple and spoke wrench sizing: www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/spoke-wrench-tool-selection
I hope this helps with your wheel work and thanks again, Graham!
@@JimLangley1 Hi Jim.
Awesome, thank you very much for your reply, really helped me a lot.
You time is very much appreciated.
Many thanks,
G.
@@JimLangley1 I like Spokeys. Their 4-sided precisionness is perfect for an impatient sausage fingers such as myself.
@@RadioSnivins thanks for pointing out the Spokey - I have used that spoke wrench, too and it has lots of fans that love it. Here's a link to it on Amazon: amzn.to/38uL4mH Thanks RadioSnivins!
@@RadioSnivins Strangely enough the Spokeys never showed up in my initial search, I did find them using Jim's link though.
Amazon UK appeared to be out of stock of the PT SW series, as with pretty much everything else bike related!
I did manage to get hold of the PT SW-7.2 Tripple Spoke Wrench Tool.
Not tried it yet but feels nice & a lot heavier than the cheaper options.
I've always utilized Jim's recommendation for alignment of hub label and valve stem hole for my builds. However, in the course of my current front wheel build for a vintage resto, the first gen D-A (7400 series) rear hub label was perfectly aligned with the MAVIC GEL-280 "red diamond" label (and, thereby, rim joint). So I have to wonder whether rim and hub label (v valve stem hole and hub label) alignment was ever a convention among wheelbuilders of the era. Your thoughts?
Thanks for watching, Steve! Too bad RUclips doesn’t allow posting photos so we could be sure we’re on the same page. But from what you wrote, my best understanding is that you decided to align the seam label on the rim instead of the valve hole on the rim? That usually means the hub label will be hidden when the rim label is visible. So it’s not the preferred alignment I explain in the video and not what we did back then - at least the wheel builders & mechanics I looked up to. But, it’s your wheel and you should build it however you like best. Hope this is helpful. Thanks again!
@@JimLangley1 Yep, your interpretation of "label to label" alignment is correct and certainly not my choice. But that's the way the existing rear wheel in this vintage resto was built and so I'm kinda constrained to matching it for the front wheel build. All of my builds from scratch have hub label aligned with the valve stem hole... just like the video! I did see some forum chatter about "label to label" alignment but it looked as though it was from Britain and not by any wheel builders that I recognize.
@@stevemasone7047 That makes sense, Steve - and a smart way to do it since you’re matching the other wheel. Have fun riding that vintage bicycle!
I would never have looked through the valve hole!...
Well, the video camera didn't want to look through it, either, Jonathon. It took quite a few tries to get the shot in my video. But, it's easy to see by eye. Thanks for watching and the comment!
@@JimLangley1 I've only ever built one wheel from scratch. It works, just, and it's not a thing of beauty....
@@jonathonjubb6626 As long as it works, that's all that matters, Jonathon. Well done and I bet as you build more you'll get better and better!
Looks like modern hubs' holes are straight-drilled, meaning they are agnostic about where you place your head-out and head-in sets of spokes. Am I right in that conjecture? That would further suggest, without pre-machined "shoulders", needing to take pains to "bed" new spokes thoroughly lest you induce early fracture or fatigue.
Secondly, if I am correct, then could you reasonably lace a replacement spoke (even if just temporarily) "the wrong way" and safely make it home? That was my inclination to try today on a long ride, when I busted a head-in spoke on the disc side of my rear wheel -- the kind that to reinsert normally you'd have to remove the wheel, unbolt the brake disc, lace the spoke off the bike, and tension everything on the stand. Whereas, if I just treated it like a head-out spoke, I could have accomplished all that on the road. Would that endanger the flange itself?
Thoughts?? FYI, this hub is an Enviolo CVT, with a huge diameter, so on a 27.5" rim, the spokes come out only 238 on the disc side and 236mm on the drive side.
Thanks for watching and the great comment, VideoNOLA. There are so many hub types today that you can run into all kinds of drillings, but as far as conventional J-bend hubs, yes they are usually drilled to accept the spokes any way you prefer to insert them.
As to if you can put a spoke in in a way that's not technically correct and ride on the wheel without harming the hub, the answer is yes as long as you can get the spoke into the hub.
Traditionally, tourists have carried what we called emergency spokes for this purpose. These special spokes have the heads cut off and the end of the spoke is bent into a sort of Z shape. This lets you push the spoke into any open hole on either side of the hub to be able to replace a broken spoke without removing the wheel and keep on riding.
I'm working on a video about these spokes and a forgotten tool that I have to make them. So please watch for that. Here's a link to my bike website where you can see the tool and read a little bit about it and emergency spokes: www.jimlangley.net/wrench/espoketool.html
I often put the wheel valve in line with the floor ready to pump up. If the label is 180 Deg from the valve it can be seen when viewed from above, would this be better?
Thanks for watching and the interesting question, Phil. I'm not sure if I understand what you mean by "would this be better?" So I need to ask better for what? Because the video is all about aligning the hub label with the rim label when building wheels. This is a common practice among pro wheel builders. It's fine if you want to do it your way. It doesn't affect the strength of the wheel. But I wouldn't say there's anything "better." I'm happy to explain more if you want to clarify the question. Thanks!
Estimado Jim. Perdón si el tema no es precisamente esto pero está relacionado. Hasta cierto punto me desconcierta cuando centro una rueda si, por ejemplo, tengo que desplazarla hacia la derecha pero los radios de ese lado están muy tensos y ya no se pueden ajustar más y, si quiero aflojar los opuestos, entonces, hallo que estos ya están excesivamente flojos. Otro tanto me sucede con los saltos, o sea que si, por ejemplo, un tramo está contraído hacia el centro y hay que aflojar los radios, ya ese tramo los tenga flojos, o al revés que haya que contraer dicho tramo pero que los radios ya estén muy ajustados; la consulta es ¿que hacer? (postdada: asimismo me ha sucedido que consigo un centrado aceptable pero con radios tensos y otros flojos). Muchas gracias y saludos cordiales.
Gracias por ver mi video Luis. ¡Gran pregunta! En algunas ruedas, solo tienes que aceptar que los radios derechos están súper apretados y los radios izquierdos del lado suelto siempre estarán sueltos. Cuando está alineando ruedas, a veces, para hacerlas redondas, termina con radios muy apretados y algunos radios más flojos, y eso está bien. Siempre que la rueda quede recta y redonda, no es un problema. Si tiene una situación en la que los radios se aflojan más y la rueda no es confiable, usaría adhesivo para roscas en los radios sueltos para que la rueda sea confiable. También hay diferentes diseños de llantas que igualan la tensión de ambos lados. Por ejemplo, una llanta compensada. En esa llanta, los orificios de los radios están desplazados hacia un lado para nivelar la tensión. En conclusión, siempre que la rueda sea redonda y verdadera y se mantenga así, tener algunos de los radios un poco más flojos es lo que tiene que ser. Espero que esto responda a tu pregunta y gracias de nuevo.
@@JimLangley1 Muchas gracias querido Jim, su respuesta ha sido verdaderamente reveladora para mí. Le envío un saludo afectuoso desde la distante Argentina.
@@luiscs4500 De nada Luis, y gracias nuevamente por ver mis videos y los buenos comentarios. ¡Disfruta de tu construcción de ruedas de bicicleta!
Hi Jim, great videos, thanks!
@4:30 you twist the hub counterclockwise. The Park tool video twists in the clockwise direction (video link below). Is it just arbitrary because there are spokes angled in each direction?
Thanks!
ruclips.net/video/X5gs00ttvdg/видео.html
Hey, thanks for watching, George - glad you like the video! It's not arbitrary. You want to twist the hub in the correct direction to be certain you have parallel spokes at the valve stem when the wheel is fully laced up.
It's pretty easy to make the mistake of twisting it the wrong way. If you watch my wheel building video, I demonstrate a simple lacing method where you twist the hub with only the first 8 spokes in the wheel (assuming you're lacing a 32 spoke wheel). I have found that if you do it this way you will rarely get confused because with so few spokes in the wheel, it's easy to see what you're looking at.
If you go to this time in my video ruclips.net/video/XUqul03hbZ8/видео.html, I explain the different types of rims, which is important when putting in the first spokes so that you start correctly. Now if you go to this time in my video ruclips.net/video/XUqul03hbZ8/видео.html I explain the twist direction and what you're looking for. I think that will make it clear. Please let me know if you have any questions, happy to help. Thanks again!
Anybody who cares about their hub label being visible through their valve stem hole is not a friend of mine.
Thanks for watching and for sharing your opinion, David. I would just like to point out that I wouldn't have made the video if I wasn't sure (from many years of building wheels professionally) that there are lots and lots of consumers and cyclists who care a lot that their wheel builder took pains to get everything perfect about the wheels they're spending money on - including the aesthetics. It's come to be what's expected from pro builders, too - so if you don't do it, you will likely get complaints about your work and that's never a good thing when you're in the business of pleasing your customers. But you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
@@JimLangley1 I have a story to tell. Some background to this is that I'm an industrial engraver - toolmaker that runs his own business for the past 35 years. Precision and striving for perfection is everything in my trade.. so here goes : in 2019 I order through my LBS a set of 28 hole DT 29" XM481's with Hope Pro4 hubs, red rear and black front for my '18 carbon Devinci Django ( made with love in Quebec Canada where I'm living ) Then print out and have a gander at Roger Musson's .pdf book while this is going on. Copuler days later LBS calls, parts are all in, we decide to build with black J bend DT doubled butted 2.0/1.8/2.0 spokes 3 cross on the 28 hole rims ( my spec. ) with black ProLoc brass nipples. I mentioned that the logo should be lined up with the valve hole and LBS instantly had trouble doing this on account of not being used to work with higher end angular drilled rims. Other issue is that I was unsure if the valve should aim at the Pro4 or Hope logo. Ended up being the LBS pointed at the Pro4 etched logo which I did not like the look of once built. The LBS assured me that he could always build them back up with the valve hitting the Hope logo for the next season. What followed was a can of worms of unbelievable proportions resulting in a damaged relationship with my LBS and having them completely built up again using a more competent wheel builder elsewhere. Turns out only the rear hub had witness marks and were so minor that a dab of red sharpie to mask them. With the cassette and brake rotor bolted back up it's hardly detectable now if at all. What saved me in this instance was the fact that I was so disgusted with the initial build I hardly used the wheel set.. As for the front hub we lucked out, the spoke order witness marks fit the new wheel builders pattern ( initial builder was off one hole compared to rear build ) So I now have a set of properly bespoke high end wheels that will last years to come according to industry standards and common practice. The wheels are now built up with custom cut and thread rolled ( Morizumi Masakazu thread rolling machine ) black Sapim Race double butted spokes and Sapim Polyax double square with their Secure Lock thread retention nipple. This is a wheel set that I can be proud of and put through their paces with 100% confidence in their functionality and professional appearance. Shame some people don't enjoy reading technical information nor have the ability to understand everything involved in building a proper higher end quality set of bicycle wheels. ;-)