Will do, and that rotary 8 HP is something else. The transmission on my dads 1993 van just went out and I kept thinking about that 8hp how it could be better then the 3 speed or 2 speed transmission. Keep up the videos, n54 for life!!! Poor man’s Soupra!!!
@@shafieksalie3119 there is a lot that goes in to keeping the cylinder pressure in the right place. Sometimes too large of a bolt and too mention tq on the bolt can twist the block and cause more problems. This is a test in what this style of gasket really does, when being used by itself. Taking out other variables.
You seeing the scratches, and immediately being humble enough to leave the door open that it could be your fault. This is the reason I love your videos. Not that it's your fault but that you have humility and are pragmatic.
Man there are too many people in the automotive world spreading missinformation in an atempt to hide thier mistakes. That doesnt happen here. Dispite my demeaner i am very methodical with what i do to avoid confusion.
Really awesome to see you getting back into the N54 builds mate! Keen to see how the cut ring gasket idea goes for you - I'll very likely be re-building my built motor soon, so will be needing to make a decision on how the head gets bolted back on...
I am dying to see an engine built with speed of air pistons. They are used primarily in disels but I think they could work wonders on the N54 due to the direct injection. happy to see the N54 content back on the channel thank you for doing such a good job.
FINALLY n54 content. To hell with the athena cut ring, you straight up need an o-ring'd head. CSS + sleeves if you want a chance at surviving 1000+ HP. Lots of reported failures on the elring gasket, BUT to be fair, the deck and head surfaces have to be absolutely perfectly flat and finished to the correct surface roughness with a profilometer. If you aren't doing that, you will push coolant, especially with no o-rings.
I've enjoyed the content over the years, I was talking to my lil cousin who is 16 the other day about a drag racing build on a budget and all i could rave on about was a single turbo dct or 8hp n54 build on a 335i e92, you definitely helped influence that lol
@@MatthewGlad While i do agree, the factory valve train and port design is starting to be an issue around 800whp, they do seem to make that on stock valves and ports ok. I want to focus on life span at that power level first.
If you can reduce pumping losses. You'll make the power with less parasitic loss. Higher volumetric efficiency means potentially less pressure and heat. By this I mean porting the exhaust and adding some aftermarket cams. Intake ported as well. It works on other platforms. In fact it's probably the one of the reasons why one of my LS based builds has lasted so long. I tailored the heads to the build (positive displacement setup). It made more power with less boost than other identical builds. Combined with a slightly looser converter. The car has lived way past most others experation dates. If you make the engine more efficient, it'll decrease back pressure, decrease heat. Because the turbo won't have to work as hard to nor will the engine have to work as hard to move the same cfm.
Thanks man! Its been a journey thats for sure. Awesome to hear you got yourself a B58. They are brilliant motor and not to mentioned F series and G series cars those motors come in are much nicer than the older e series. I still love my e92. Probabaly owes about what i can buy a g80 m3 for.... but im still trying to understand work things out with the platform. I love the working things out part. Time for the higher $$$ end of the N54 builds now....
I just rebuilt my B58 with original gasket. Glad to see I made a good choice as I was also under impression they were the same. Had no idea. Thx Andrew
Thanks for getting THE motor back on the channel again, Andrew. I started with this on your channel, some time ago. I'm a sub to The BoostedBoiz in the US, and they did a lot of trial and error on their K24 blocks. They are now at 1000Hp+ and ended up with copper cut rings. That wasn't enough either. Now they are rebuilding again and using special stainless steel cut rings to hold the boost. People learn a lot from these guys all over the World, understanding head gasket problems, although it's Honda content. Thanks for sharing.Cheers Nico.
The athena cutrings are extremely popular in the e36 world and most everybody swears by them. Mls seems to work great as long as block and head are machined nice and flat. Cutring tends to seal regardless.
glad to see ur back! had an elring gasket fail in 15k km/ 2 years on my OFH, after overhauling all gaskets and cooling on my new to me e90. switched the oil tstat and ofh to genuine bmw and no issues so far after 5k. the genuine ones are made in japan ironically
My car is an epoxy closed deck with ARP headstuds and the athena cut ring gasket. It does have 19ts so probably not going to make 800 but we will see how it goes!
I had a problem with a hemi six with six 2” Su’s and stage five nitrous and the only way I could stop my head gasket craping itself was to sleeve and copper o ring , never had a head gasket fail after that , the bottom end was another thing all together.
DUDE!!! i was wondering where you were in the comments..... Im trying to get an update filmed this weekend. But fitting the new rods has not got to plan..... God damn its like im cursed with this engines.
i saw an open deck block where the engine builder drilled a dowel hole, so a round dowel pin slides into the hole a few inches, with an overlap on both cylinder wall and block - so the one round dowel pin locked that part of the bore and the block together - they ran a few of these spaced evenly around the cylinders - and being metal they would not allow movement between the open deck cylinder and the block. You could flush fit them or you could recess them depending on what your head gasket needed to cover / seat on. It looks like your cylinder walls are similar thickness to the one i saw - which was not on a bmw. maybe an option?
Good to see this build back, I’m on the edge of walking away from this car and going the the S55 platform. So I am curious to see where you end up with this
I highly recommend you still go with ARP hardware since BMW head bolts are torque to yield and that could mess with the cut rings properly sealing and cutting into the head / block.
This was a concern of mine. Also why i checked the break away tq required to remove the last stretch bolts (these would have seen around 700whp and potencially the head lifting). The "main" issue is the cost of going to an upgraded stud. The other point i didnt clarify enough in the video, when you use studs and change the factory head tq values, we dont really know what effect that has on the entire structure of the block. Papadakas did a great video on the B58 recently. He summised (loose term here) that the factory B58 bores are not straight until they are bolted down. To the point he said if this brand new OEM block was recieved this way from a machine shop he would return it to have it redone. He believed the factory are maching defects in to the block which correct themselves when torqued down. So in the inetrest of trying to be scientific. I wanted to see what would happen with this style gasket and factory torque values on the head. Ive seen unopened n54 engines roll 1000whp. Massive single turbos with a very thin power band. But the factory head gasket will hold for a little while. I've also seen a few blocks crack where the ARP bolts have been fitted. Obviously to get a decent stud in there you need to time sert as factory thread in the alloy block is limiting to a point. But then if you time sert the amount of material around the time sert is also quite thin. There is a lot that goes in to making an engine work at 2/3 times its intended power level and not many people understand all the aspects of each potencial upgrade. There are hardly any N54 engines out there that get used for prolonged periods above 850whp. Nearly everything breaks pretty quickly. Im trying to piece together a puzzle of everyones results and combinations interest of a combo around the 800whp level. Which lets be honest is more than enough for these chassis.
I only heard about these gaskets with the locking type rings a few weeks ago. I understand that people would use copper (Or was it brass?) wire to try and do the same thing except by hand on the top of the block running the wire in figure 8 style shapes through the piston holes. If that made any sense lol. MY OEM engine is holding well so far with basically the exact type of build you had with the cheap 17T build. But one day it won't so I'll have to see what happens to yours. I hope it's a good way to go. Si glad to see your making content again Andrew!
Proper fire ring and copper gasket is the way.... Steel compression strips around the cylinder will not deform enough to allow the fire rings to bite. Also check the copper gasket is annealed properly.
Hey Andrew, great to see you getting back to the N54 content. My thoughts on the Athena racing head gasket are positive. (Currently planing a few mods on my m235i and have been researching it for myself). As long as the head and block are straight and true the gasket should hold up to about 50psi. Although my understanding is exhaust manifold pressure has an influence on this. I would combine the cut ring gasket with head studs and deck the block and head etc. Quite interested to see how this one pans out!
I have tried that O-Ring head gasket and have issue where oil leaking it provide good support for the cylinder combustion but not enough seal on oil passages and went back to OE gasket it’s the best until i have cracked sleeve moreover those O-Ring will not provide any cylinder support from moving their ring bite only in to head and bottom is flat surface close deck the only way to support the cylinder CSS I’m in doing so i have semi closed duck when i have cracked the sleeve though bad sleeve material or installation error not sure maybe both.
MLS head gasket epoxy filled block proper length head studs from ARP not the normal kit people buy. and the car went 8.16 @ 168mph. that being said i love the content you are putting out.
Loving the content! I’m used to dealing with v8s but I enjoy learning about all different makes and engine builds. I had a thought and if it’s a crap idea for your build then just disregard it. Have you ever heard of or watched any Steve morris videos? Big v8 high horsepower guy but when it comes to o rings for head to block combo he seems to have a really good system. He puts the steel ring in the head and groves the block then uses a copper head gasket to “squeeze” the gasket into the groove in the block for maximum sealing. Just thought I’d throw that out there as another possible idea to seal the cylinders up and maybe not cost an arm and a leg lol. Good luck. I’ll be following along!
Yeah, I enjoy Steve’s videos. That ring is the “real” way to hold combustion pressure in. I’m still playing around with this motor build. Definitely not the best way to go a n54, but some more experimenting like the old days.
Have had 0 luck with those gasket's at my job, We mostly do Evo's,GTR's and Lambo's. Our method is Copper Gasket with a fire ring. For the N54 I would keep the Factory MLS, Do a stainless steel wire in the head and ARP head stud's. That method should crack the sleeve before the gasket blows.
@ZeroTo60Tube On a 4G63 around 1200whp or higher is when we do a copper gasket and fire rings. On a GTR it's around 1800whp when we start doing the same. With Evo's we can usually keep the headgasket happy with a stainless O-ring in the head on a factory MLS gasket up to around 1000whp. Copper O-rings do not work as they are too soft. Now keep in mind an open deck block changes everything. If you know about Myles Integra we run dowels on all the head studs.
@@liftedcj7on44s Those examples are way above the power goals i would like to see. I am curious about the integra setup with dowels on all the head studs. I feel that would help reduce twist in the block fairly significantly.
@ZeroTo60Tube Not sure on power not really anywhere to do 100-200 without going to jail.. its around running 28psi with the new Ball Bearing turbos. Still chasing a few gremlins out of it. I walked that M4 that you did a video on so a bit more then that.
Its something i wanted to investigate. I havent seen anyone try this combination. Also kinda clutching at straws with stock headbolts. They seem ok around 750whp, its almost like they have a little give as everything is hot and expandting/twisting. Where ARP dont really do that.
@ZeroTo60Tube yeah I'm keen to see how it goes.. also good to see some videos again, I've always wanted to play around with those gaskets they look great on paper.
Yep..was a vq35hr..3.5 V6.. 980whp was the limit regardless of head clamp.. Combustion chamber deflection was the root problem, sleeves wobble at 750+.. deck guard, glue,pinned liners... Some engines just can't take the cylinder pressure.
Buck should know a fair bit about this shouldn’t he? And what about grout filling the block instead of epoxy! Also I just built a new CA18 bottom end, so I should be pulling the old CA apart soon too! Good fun playing with engines haha!
I recently built my N54....flat head and block, RB 2 turbos at 25psi, forged pistons and rods, new OEM head bolts torqued properly to BMW's angle sequence.....and used an Elring head gasket. Same thing....failed right off the bat, motor is using coolant....it's getting in the oil. I'm guessing I have the same problem you had. Time for a new OEM BMW head gasket.
Ahhh man, sorry to hear. There is something different about these Elrings. I guess they are being made for 300hp not 600hp. Side by side the sealant around coolant/oil jackets is a different size to OEM, the holes for the head bolts are also a different size to OEM.
i can tell you one thing that influences more than any of the things you mentioned TUNE! remove torque because you don't need it with such an efficient gearbox-really wind back the torque under 4.5k and this won't happen again MLS gaskets do 35psi easy! if you were making 700nm make it 500 skim the head properly this time! also you will flex the block if you use ARP to its maximum torque. don't go over 15% torque to standard if you can shorten diff gears, this helps engine load allot also
My motor is budget built. Adp rods/pistons. Coyote gen 2 head studs / time serts Epoxy insert, oem gasket+ headgasket spray. Doing solid around 700 hp .
So the issue is head gasket sealing. I agree budget is considered but why not just do the block insert with the copper o ring? The o-ring does not keep the cylinder wall stable the block insert does. All the o-ring does is seal the head and block for the combustion pressures. The insert keeps the walls stable.
It’s all about cost. Trying to find a way to get them around that 800whp with the need to go to a machine shop. An oring to bite in to the head like these cut ring style gaskets to. It’s not going to be as affective as an insert. But it’s a mechanical connection now. Which it doesn’t have with a MLS.
hi andrew if the head and block aren't going to a machine shop to be decked get your self a flat pain of glass and stick some 400 grit we n dry sand paper to it wet the sandpaper with crc and slide it over the head and block surface the glass will be dead flat this will tell you if the mating surfaces are indeed flat if they are not off to the machine shop and yes more n54 content please cheers glenn
That head needs resurfacing. Modern engines are cast with hardly any strength, over heating will cause distortion. You will also need to straight edge checks on the block especially where the gasket blown
Andrew, first, great to see hard-core N54 content. Watching the time-lapse of your taking off the head was pure rapture! Second, I see FCP Euro sells both Elring “OEM” and Genuine BMW head gaskets in two thicknesses - “stock” and “1.52mm (+0.30) Thicker Than Stock”. Which thickness had you used, and any thoughts on choosing one over the other? Third, the comments about tuning to keep torque (and hence cylinder pressure) low at low rpm seems to make a lot of sense from an engineering perspective to help minimize cylinder deflection. It would seem that a given pressure in the power stroke, a cylinder will have more time to deflect at low rpm than at high rpm.
The thickness of the head gaskets generally come in to play when surfaces have been machined. The thicker gasket then makes up the difference in the combustion chamber. Previously i used a stock thickness. Factory gaskets are identified by holes in the corner of the gasket. The Elring runs a difference hole numbering system it seems. The elring is definitely not the same as the genuine MLS. Regarding the "tuning" this is very evident with big single turbo N54s. They cant make power down low due to the lag, which is why they seem last at higher peak power levels than the twin turbo cars.
Using such a thin cut-ring to keep the liners in place is quite risky imho. Machining the top of the block and pressing in an insert may be a bit more expensive, but should be way more reliable. Even cheaper pinning of the cilinders with alu dowelpins at the corners is a much better Idea.
@@ZeroTo60Tubethe results will likely be the same. Then you would have to take the block apart again because you will still have wall flex because of combustion pressures..not my money but if you want to experiment on it more power to you
The N54 facebook groups have quite a few people trying it. That is the main reason, i though i would go this way. We will have the data from others on the epoxy.
Those Athena gaskets are notorious to leak coolant out through the matting surfaces wouldn’t recommend, oem gasket and a good machinist is all you need
Been considering doing an 8 speed swap since revisiting your channel. I don't really see anyone here in the US doing any 8hp swaps or any content regarding it. Got a z3m coupe that keeps eating up slave cylinders. So tired of it that I'm tempted to just tear the trans out and go with the 8hp. The stock gearing on the 5 speed they come with is terrible with the stock rear end ratio. Going deaf on the freeway.
Heh, didn't expect to hear a Beytek shout out on this channel. Small world, made even smaller by the internet. lol Salutations from our little Island known as the U.K
Is anyone measuring stud stretch to rule out studs contributing to the headgasket failure? I hope the style gasket you are testing works. I'm sure people would love to know
No teeth on the bottom side of cut rings. They will not hold the bores. They only cut the head. I think you need to go bigger than 9mm on the outer studs. You can't get your homies to plazma table you a metal insert? Press the block into a closed deck? May not cost you that much in the bigger picture. Mabye press in a few pieces if its easier. (Idk how tight or if it distorts the bores out if round. )
Just to make it clear: the BMW Genuine headgasket is better than Elring ? Doing an engine rebuild on my N54 with OEM gaskets, should I go with Genuine BMW headgasket though?
@@ZeroTo60Tube Okay. And is it the same with valve stem seal, oil pan gasket? I guess it's better to use all Genuine BMW gaskets to be on the safe side... especially for internals. Not so worried about OFHG as it's easier to change...
Hey there, really hope you see this! I’m In nz and wanting to take a 8hp45 out of a 525i f10 bmw, I think it is n52 and wanting to put it on my n54!! But just wanting to know if the bell housings are the same or different and if there are different who would be the best place to help out with everything I need for the conversion ? Would love to know from you !
@@ZeroTo60Tube thank you so much for replying!!!! I definitely would use one off a n55 as first choice but got one off a n52 for free so trying to make it work If possible. Is there anyone you would recommend to talk to about it?
Athena cutring quality is bad We had 6 failures with athena cutring on 6 different engines,all had the same issue Leaking coolant and oil externally from day 1 Also we try to fix the issue with retorque but didnt work The issue with Athena is that the rings are made wrong vs the gasket thickness so the ring dont let the paper gasket to seal the coolant and oil If you want a cutring gasket that work speak with Gemoflan race gaskets in Greece We run Gemoflan custom cutring gaskets on our builds with zero issues
Hey I went with ACL "standard" clearance rod bearings and ARP Rod Bolts on my 8 bolt converted 335is. Which exact bearings & rod bolts are you planning on using? Im curious. The rest of my engine is stock and unopened.
I went extra clearance on the bearings..... i think. I ordered them 2 years ago now wahhhh. But i like the idea of extra clearance. Help protect them when everything is at twisting and melting point.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Whats the part number? The one’s that I have are part number 6B1584HX-STD. Interestingly enough where I bought them from (Amazon) it states that the have .001" extra clearance. However I went on FCP Euro and on there the matching part number doesn’t say anything about extra clearance. There was another listing on FCP Euro with a different P/N that did mention the .001" extra clearance…
@@ZeroTo60Tube I guess they weren’t lying when it lists .001" extra clearance. My crankshaft is the stock untouched 8 bolt (gen 1 N54) one. But in my case in a 335is which came with a 6 bolt. Have you opened each side by side? The 8 bolt has no cut outs in between cylinder walls, but the 6 bolt does. My tuner Ken @ Wedge says on the 6 bolts those cylinder walls are prone to cracking at high temps.
@@rllamas14 i dont see any advantage. They do exactly the same as the plastic ones and a new plastic one will last 5-10 years. There are issues with cast alloy being pourus mild concern with the china ones. I guess they are better if you want to paint them. I would really like one of the billet style covers ideally. They tend to really tidy up the engine bay.
@@maxcutie822 I dont believe that would be needed. Theres a few engines running over 1100whp stock main caps and bolts and staying together........ for now.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Is there anyway i can contact you privately ive got a couple questions about the kingtec stuff if you dont mind. im planning on doing a budget build soon
@@ZeroTo60Tube First guy was on CTS at 22psi @ E40, only thing the shop had in stock so they assembled the engine with it, blew up as soon as we dialed up the boost. Second guy was running HP650 on straight E85, both guys had pressure in the coolant system. First went with OE after that, no issues to this day, the other got a victor reinz, also no issues to this day.
![I.N "HALLUCINATION" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/n5B5q1Hwt_U/mqdefault.jpg)
If you like this type of video on the N54 development, please share it around. The view count will tell me if we need to more of this type of video.
Will do, and that rotary 8 HP is something else.
The transmission on my dads 1993 van just went out and I kept thinking about that 8hp how it could be better then the 3 speed or 2 speed transmission.
Keep up the videos, n54 for life!!!
Poor man’s Soupra!!!
Hi great video please fit 12 mm bolts we needed for that power
@@shafieksalie3119 there is a lot that goes in to keeping the cylinder pressure in the right place. Sometimes too large of a bolt and too mention tq on the bolt can twist the block and cause more problems. This is a test in what this style of gasket really does, when being used by itself. Taking out other variables.
Fire rings are the go
Fire rings are the go
Great to see the good old N54 content back!
Indeed it is!
You seeing the scratches, and immediately being humble enough to leave the door open that it could be your fault.
This is the reason I love your videos. Not that it's your fault but that you have humility and are pragmatic.
Man there are too many people in the automotive world spreading missinformation in an atempt to hide thier mistakes. That doesnt happen here. Dispite my demeaner i am very methodical with what i do to avoid confusion.
Great to see N54 content Mr 8 speed
Great content. Just like the old days
Thanks man.
Really awesome to see you getting back into the N54 builds mate!
Keen to see how the cut ring gasket idea goes for you - I'll very likely be re-building my built motor soon, so will be needing to make a decision on how the head gets bolted back on...
Well gosh dang he's alive. Welcome back!
Great job brother great to see the n54 content back again I’ve been waiting for this 🎉your e92 was my favorite car on RUclips
Great to see you back. Love the videos!
Glad to see you working on your stuff again. Been watching your channel for years. 👍👍👍
I appreciate that!
Great to see you back messing with the n54! Can't wait to hear that equal length manifold again. Cheers🍻
You and me both!
I am dying to see an engine built with speed of air pistons. They are used primarily in disels but I think they could work wonders on the N54 due to the direct injection. happy to see the N54 content back on the channel thank you for doing such a good job.
hell yes missed your n54 content bro ! glad to see its back ! loved this one
FINALLY n54 content. To hell with the athena cut ring, you straight up need an o-ring'd head. CSS + sleeves if you want a chance at surviving 1000+ HP. Lots of reported failures on the elring gasket, BUT to be fair, the deck and head surfaces have to be absolutely perfectly flat and finished to the correct surface roughness with a profilometer. If you aren't doing that, you will push coolant, especially with no o-rings.
I've enjoyed the content over the years, I was talking to my lil cousin who is 16 the other day about a drag racing build on a budget and all i could rave on about was a single turbo dct or 8hp n54 build on a 335i e92, you definitely helped influence that lol
Great that you are back into N54 content.
Let's get back to some n54 content the cut ring with the epoxy would be good. I'm a fan of MLS with copper coating.
Hell yeah brother! The version of the e92 is gonna be sick!
@@ZeroTo60Tube I have my arp head bolts ready to go. The restriction is in the head give it a port job.
@@MatthewGlad While i do agree, the factory valve train and port design is starting to be an issue around 800whp, they do seem to make that on stock valves and ports ok. I want to focus on life span at that power level first.
If you can reduce pumping losses. You'll make the power with less parasitic loss. Higher volumetric efficiency means potentially less pressure and heat. By this I mean porting the exhaust and adding some aftermarket cams. Intake ported as well. It works on other platforms. In fact it's probably the one of the reasons why one of my LS based builds has lasted so long. I tailored the heads to the build (positive displacement setup). It made more power with less boost than other identical builds. Combined with a slightly looser converter. The car has lived way past most others experation dates.
If you make the engine more efficient, it'll decrease back pressure, decrease heat. Because the turbo won't have to work as hard to nor will the engine have to work as hard to move the same cfm.
Great vid looking forward for the next update
Welcome back bro super excited to see
Woo-hoo Team N54 is back on the road less traveled. Great stuff Andrew. Excited to see how this plays out.
Great to see ur n54 content back.
keep us updated i kno alot of us miss the vids
been watching you since 2018, glad to see you still have n54 content. I moved onto B58 but plan to purchase a 335is when the correct spec pops up.
Thanks man! Its been a journey thats for sure. Awesome to hear you got yourself a B58. They are brilliant motor and not to mentioned F series and G series cars those motors come in are much nicer than the older e series. I still love my e92. Probabaly owes about what i can buy a g80 m3 for.... but im still trying to understand work things out with the platform. I love the working things out part. Time for the higher $$$ end of the N54 builds now....
Welcome back mate
Great to see you working on the N54 engine again. It will be exciting to follow your journey to a reliable 800hp n54 engine.
Awesome, can't wait to see your build and results. Big help for the rest of the n54 community.
You and me both!
I just rebuilt my B58 with original gasket.
Glad to see I made a good choice as I was also under impression they were the same.
Had no idea.
Thx Andrew
Thanks for getting THE motor back on the channel again, Andrew. I started with this on your channel, some time ago.
I'm a sub to The BoostedBoiz in the US, and they did a lot of trial and error on their K24 blocks. They are now at 1000Hp+ and ended up with copper cut rings. That wasn't enough either. Now they are rebuilding again and using special stainless steel cut rings to hold the boost. People learn a lot from these guys all over the World, understanding head gasket problems, although it's Honda content.
Thanks for sharing.Cheers Nico.
The athena cutrings are extremely popular in the e36 world and most everybody swears by them. Mls seems to work great as long as block and head are machined nice and flat. Cutring tends to seal regardless.
That’s what I’d heard. I’m hoping this is a solution for people so they dont need the visit to the machine shop.
glad to see ur back! had an elring gasket fail in 15k km/ 2 years on my OFH, after overhauling all gaskets and cooling on my new to me e90. switched the oil tstat and ofh to genuine bmw and no issues so far after 5k. the genuine ones are made in japan ironically
My car is an epoxy closed deck with ARP headstuds and the athena cut ring gasket. It does have 19ts so probably not going to make 800 but we will see how it goes!
Keep N54 coming.Good work.👍
Thanks for watching and commenting. These are what makes me want to do more!
the athena cut ring gaskets worked well for me. glad u got it sorted.
I had a problem with a hemi six with six 2” Su’s and stage five nitrous and the only way I could stop my head gasket craping itself was to sleeve and copper o ring , never had a head gasket fail after that , the bottom end was another thing all together.
youtube algorithm only just blessed me with this video today. lets gooo!! been here since the china turbo days, can't wait for more N54 content!
DUDE!!! i was wondering where you were in the comments..... Im trying to get an update filmed this weekend. But fitting the new rods has not got to plan..... God damn its like im cursed with this engines.
@@ZeroTo60Tube the struggle is part of the journey brother, inspiring to see you constantly pushing 💪
Im loving the N54 content Andrew, keep it coming. Thanks
Deposits on no3 inlet valve is Carbon from Oil in the cylinder. Check the spark plug carefully it will probably show there as well?.
i saw an open deck block where the engine builder drilled a dowel hole, so a round dowel pin slides into the hole a few inches, with an overlap on both cylinder wall and block - so the one round dowel pin locked that part of the bore and the block together - they ran a few of these spaced evenly around the cylinders - and being metal they would not allow movement between the open deck cylinder and the block. You could flush fit them or you could recess them depending on what your head gasket needed to cover / seat on. It looks like your cylinder walls are similar thickness to the one i saw - which was not on a bmw. maybe an option?
Good to see this build back, I’m on the edge of walking away from this car and going the the S55 platform. So I am curious to see where you end up with this
With what s55 cars are worth right now it’s a no brainer. The e9x n54s are simply an old thing now.
I like your thinking, looking forward to the build .
I highly recommend you still go with ARP hardware since BMW head bolts are torque to yield and that could mess with the cut rings properly sealing and cutting into the head / block.
This was a concern of mine. Also why i checked the break away tq required to remove the last stretch bolts (these would have seen around 700whp and potencially the head lifting). The "main" issue is the cost of going to an upgraded stud. The other point i didnt clarify enough in the video, when you use studs and change the factory head tq values, we dont really know what effect that has on the entire structure of the block. Papadakas did a great video on the B58 recently. He summised (loose term here) that the factory B58 bores are not straight until they are bolted down. To the point he said if this brand new OEM block was recieved this way from a machine shop he would return it to have it redone. He believed the factory are maching defects in to the block which correct themselves when torqued down. So in the inetrest of trying to be scientific. I wanted to see what would happen with this style gasket and factory torque values on the head. Ive seen unopened n54 engines roll 1000whp. Massive single turbos with a very thin power band. But the factory head gasket will hold for a little while. I've also seen a few blocks crack where the ARP bolts have been fitted. Obviously to get a decent stud in there you need to time sert as factory thread in the alloy block is limiting to a point. But then if you time sert the amount of material around the time sert is also quite thin. There is a lot that goes in to making an engine work at 2/3 times its intended power level and not many people understand all the aspects of each potencial upgrade. There are hardly any N54 engines out there that get used for prolonged periods above 850whp. Nearly everything breaks pretty quickly. Im trying to piece together a puzzle of everyones results and combinations interest of a combo around the 800whp level. Which lets be honest is more than enough for these chassis.
I only heard about these gaskets with the locking type rings a few weeks ago. I understand that people would use copper (Or was it brass?) wire to try and do the same thing except by hand on the top of the block running the wire in figure 8 style shapes through the piston holes. If that made any sense lol. MY OEM engine is holding well so far with basically the exact type of build you had with the cheap 17T build. But one day it won't so I'll have to see what happens to yours. I hope it's a good way to go. Si glad to see your making content again Andrew!
Proper fire ring and copper gasket is the way.... Steel compression strips around the cylinder will not deform enough to allow the fire rings to bite.
Also check the copper gasket is annealed properly.
You made this video right as i was diving into your budget n54 content hoping to build my own wondering what happened to it
Welcome back, maybe we need an update on Dave and new Dave
Hey Andrew, great to see you getting back to the N54 content.
My thoughts on the Athena racing head gasket are positive. (Currently planing a few mods on my m235i and have been researching it for myself).
As long as the head and block are straight and true the gasket should hold up to about 50psi. Although my understanding is exhaust manifold pressure has an influence on this. I would combine the cut ring gasket with head studs and deck the block and head etc.
Quite interested to see how this one pans out!
I have tried that O-Ring head gasket and have issue where oil leaking it provide good support for the cylinder combustion but not enough seal on oil passages and went back to OE gasket it’s the best until i have cracked sleeve moreover those O-Ring will not provide any cylinder support from moving their ring bite only in to head and bottom is flat surface close deck the only way to support the cylinder CSS I’m in doing so i have semi closed duck when i have cracked the sleeve though bad sleeve material or installation error not sure maybe both.
Thank you for the N54 content 🙏 ❤️
MLS head gasket epoxy filled block proper length head studs from ARP not the normal kit people buy. and the car went 8.16 @ 168mph. that being said i love the content you are putting out.
I didn’t realise it was the epoxy block that went 8.16. Pretty mega. I have been emailing Andy. Im keen to get some bits sent down for this one.
Loving the content! I’m used to dealing with v8s but I enjoy learning about all different makes and engine builds. I had a thought and if it’s a crap idea for your build then just disregard it. Have you ever heard of or watched any Steve morris videos? Big v8 high horsepower guy but when it comes to o rings for head to block combo he seems to have a really good system. He puts the steel ring in the head and groves the block then uses a copper head gasket to “squeeze” the gasket into the groove in the block for maximum sealing. Just thought I’d throw that out there as another possible idea to seal the cylinders up and maybe not cost an arm and a leg lol. Good luck. I’ll be following along!
Yeah, I enjoy Steve’s videos. That ring is the “real” way to hold combustion pressure in. I’m still playing around with this motor build. Definitely not the best way to go a n54, but some more experimenting like the old days.
@@ZeroTo60Tube good luck! I’m curious what you come up with!
Have had 0 luck with those gasket's at my job, We mostly do Evo's,GTR's and Lambo's. Our method is Copper Gasket with a fire ring.
For the N54 I would keep the Factory MLS, Do a stainless steel wire in the head and ARP head stud's. That method should crack the sleeve before the gasket blows.
What power levels per cyl were the ones failing? What you are saying is 100% better, but also quite costly.
@ZeroTo60Tube On a 4G63 around 1200whp or higher is when we do a copper gasket and fire rings. On a GTR it's around 1800whp when we start doing the same. With Evo's we can usually keep the headgasket happy with a stainless O-ring in the head on a factory MLS gasket up to around 1000whp. Copper O-rings do not work as they are too soft. Now keep in mind an open deck block changes everything. If you know about Myles Integra we run dowels on all the head studs.
@@liftedcj7on44s Those examples are way above the power goals i would like to see. I am curious about the integra setup with dowels on all the head studs. I feel that would help reduce twist in the block fairly significantly.
I have been running the Vulcan cut ring gasket for the n54. No problem yet
what power levels are you at or 100-200 times?
@ZeroTo60Tube Not sure on power not really anywhere to do 100-200 without going to jail.. its around running 28psi with the new Ball Bearing turbos. Still chasing a few gremlins out of it. I walked that M4 that you did a video on so a bit more then that.
Has to be 700ish. Good to hear! Which brand of gasket did you use?
@ZeroTo60Tube Vulcan . They say there good from 50hp to 5000hp
N54 content 👌 can't wait to hear that JMC exhaust note!
Those cut ring gaskets make a big difference on a closed deck engine, so it will be good to see how it goes on an open deck one
Its something i wanted to investigate. I havent seen anyone try this combination. Also kinda clutching at straws with stock headbolts. They seem ok around 750whp, its almost like they have a little give as everything is hot and expandting/twisting. Where ARP dont really do that.
@ZeroTo60Tube yeah I'm keen to see how it goes.. also good to see some videos again, I've always wanted to play around with those gaskets they look great on paper.
Hcr Latvia have develop some n54 studs tested 1000hpw
By the way it looks like aluminium on the valves that you said are the exhaust valves ??? and the fuel mixture is weak as hell !!!!
There have been a lot of failures with those Athena head gaskets as well.OEM seems to be the best bet.
Yep..was a vq35hr..3.5 V6..
980whp was the limit regardless of head clamp..
Combustion chamber deflection was the root problem, sleeves wobble at 750+.. deck guard, glue,pinned liners...
Some engines just can't take the cylinder pressure.
Can’t wait for this one 👌
Buck should know a fair bit about this shouldn’t he?
And what about grout filling the block instead of epoxy!
Also I just built a new CA18 bottom end, so I should be pulling the old CA apart soon too!
Good fun playing with engines haha!
He’s being him. Apparently I should 2jz swap it if I want it make power haha
Haha damn, that would be crazy!! Or RB it like Jake Jones RBM3, that’s probably the best sounding e92 m3 ever!!
But I do like that you play with the N54’s like you do!
Need to find a way to "key" the tops of the bore to the combustion chamber\head.
So that, and sky's the limit.. aka..gm Ecotec racing 2.2..
I recently built my N54....flat head and block, RB 2 turbos at 25psi, forged pistons and rods, new OEM head bolts torqued properly to BMW's angle sequence.....and used an Elring head gasket. Same thing....failed right off the bat, motor is using coolant....it's getting in the oil. I'm guessing I have the same problem you had. Time for a new OEM BMW head gasket.
Ahhh man, sorry to hear. There is something different about these Elrings. I guess they are being made for 300hp not 600hp. Side by side the sealant around coolant/oil jackets is a different size to OEM, the holes for the head bolts are also a different size to OEM.
i can tell you one thing that influences more than any of the things you mentioned
TUNE! remove torque because you don't need it with such an efficient gearbox-really wind back the torque under 4.5k and this won't happen again
MLS gaskets do 35psi easy!
if you were making 700nm make it 500
skim the head properly this time!
also you will flex the block if you use ARP to its maximum torque. don't go over 15% torque to standard
if
you can shorten diff gears, this helps engine load allot also
My motor is budget built.
Adp rods/pistons.
Coyote gen 2 head studs / time serts
Epoxy insert, oem gasket+ headgasket spray.
Doing solid around 700 hp .
That’s a sweet setup.
Drop a link to the new head gasket
So the issue is head gasket sealing. I agree budget is considered but why not just do the block insert with the copper o ring?
The o-ring does not keep the cylinder wall stable the block insert does. All the o-ring does is seal the head and block for the combustion pressures. The insert keeps the walls stable.
It’s all about cost. Trying to find a way to get them around that 800whp with the need to go to a machine shop.
An oring to bite in to the head like these cut ring style gaskets to. It’s not going to be as affective as an insert. But it’s a mechanical connection now. Which it doesn’t have with a MLS.
@@ZeroTo60Tube okay. I'll check back in december and see if it makes any difference
hi andrew if the head and block aren't going to a machine shop to be decked get your self a flat pain of glass and stick some 400 grit we n dry sand paper to it wet the sandpaper with crc and slide it over the head and block surface the glass will be dead flat this will tell you if the mating surfaces are indeed flat if they are not off to the machine shop and yes more n54 content please cheers glenn
Wise words!
thanks mate i sent you an email about dicass brakes cheers glenn
Cant wait! Are you sticking with DI + Reflex PI for fueling or are you going with the Nexsys DI delete?
Not sticking with Di. I need to work out a few more little details and I’ll do a video on the fueling setup plans soon. Maybe next weekend.
That head needs resurfacing. Modern engines are cast with hardly any strength, over heating will cause distortion.
You will also need to straight edge checks on the block especially where the gasket blown
Andrew, first, great to see hard-core N54 content. Watching the time-lapse of your taking off the head was pure rapture!
Second, I see FCP Euro sells both Elring “OEM” and Genuine BMW head gaskets in two thicknesses - “stock” and “1.52mm (+0.30) Thicker Than Stock”. Which thickness had you used, and any thoughts on choosing one over the other?
Third, the comments about tuning to keep torque (and hence cylinder pressure) low at low rpm seems to make a lot of sense from an engineering perspective to help minimize cylinder deflection. It would seem that a given pressure in the power stroke, a cylinder will have more time to deflect at low rpm than at high rpm.
The thickness of the head gaskets generally come in to play when surfaces have been machined. The thicker gasket then makes up the difference in the combustion chamber. Previously i used a stock thickness.
Factory gaskets are identified by holes in the corner of the gasket. The Elring runs a difference hole numbering system it seems. The elring is definitely not the same as the genuine MLS.
Regarding the "tuning" this is very evident with big single turbo N54s. They cant make power down low due to the lag, which is why they seem last at higher peak power levels than the twin turbo cars.
Using such a thin cut-ring to keep the liners in place is quite risky imho. Machining the top of the block and pressing in an insert may be a bit more expensive, but should be way more reliable. Even cheaper pinning of the cilinders with alu dowelpins at the corners is a much better Idea.
Accurate statements. But I want to see what the cut ring does vs a mls. See if it’s any benifit.
@@ZeroTo60Tubethe results will likely be the same. Then you would have to take the block apart again because you will still have wall flex because of combustion pressures..not my money but if you want to experiment on it more power to you
You should do the n53 head swap
Athena gasket seals combustion and cooland good , but its have one issue its leaking oil....
love the content!
Keen to see epoxy filling
The N54 facebook groups have quite a few people trying it. That is the main reason, i though i would go this way. We will have the data from others on the epoxy.
Those Athena gaskets are notorious to leak coolant out through the matting surfaces wouldn’t recommend, oem gasket and a good machinist is all you need
Hi ...in France and Europe, I have had bad feedback on the Athena head gaskets. do you have an opinion on the cometic head gasket?
Awesome !!! Lets go
how many test runs will this new head last, asking for a mate
Time will tell…..
Been considering doing an 8 speed swap since revisiting your channel. I don't really see anyone here in the US doing any 8hp swaps or any content regarding it. Got a z3m coupe that keeps eating up slave cylinders. So tired of it that I'm tempted to just tear the trans out and go with the 8hp. The stock gearing on the 5 speed they come with is terrible with the stock rear end ratio. Going deaf on the freeway.
What have you heard or zrp rods? They Are I-beam instead of the typical h beam rods out there
I have heard of them. But that’s all
They only bite into the cylinder head. They are Flat on the block side! Dont mix it up!
Heh, didn't expect to hear a Beytek shout out on this channel. Small world, made even smaller by the internet. lol
Salutations from our little Island known as the U.K
Is anyone measuring stud stretch to rule out studs contributing to the headgasket failure? I hope the style gasket you are testing works. I'm sure people would love to know
We back 🔥🔥🔥
Finally
No teeth on the bottom side of cut rings. They will not hold the bores. They only cut the head. I think you need to go bigger than 9mm on the outer studs. You can't get your homies to plazma table you a metal insert? Press the block into a closed deck? May not cost you that much in the bigger picture. Mabye press in a few pieces if its easier. (Idk how tight or if it distorts the bores out if round. )
Oh Boy !!! cant seee this composite head gaskets holding up to so many more than normal heat cycles...
There has to be a reason they exist. And so many well established companies selling them.
Just to make it clear: the BMW Genuine headgasket is better than Elring ? Doing an engine rebuild on my N54 with OEM gaskets, should I go with Genuine BMW headgasket though?
Absolutely. The elrings have issues around the 650whp mark.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Okay. And is it the same with valve stem seal, oil pan gasket? I guess it's better to use all Genuine BMW gaskets to be on the safe side... especially for internals. Not so worried about OFHG as it's easier to change...
Hey there, really hope you see this! I’m
In nz and wanting to take a 8hp45 out of a 525i f10 bmw, I think it is n52 and wanting to put it on my n54!! But just wanting to know if the bell housings are the same or different and if there are different who would be the best place to help out with everything I need for the conversion ? Would love to know from you !
I think bell housing is the same. the converter is not. You are best to use a N55 8hp45
@@ZeroTo60Tube thank you so much for replying!!!! I definitely would use one off a n55 as first choice but got one off a n52 for free so trying to make it work If possible. Is there anyone you would recommend to talk to about it?
@@marcchaney9506 not really, everyone in know will tell you to use a N55 version.
im gonna run oem gasket, stock head bolts, epoxy, with only head resurface. I'll see how it goes
I think that is a fairly safe, tried method. Hopefully it serves you well. What pistons and rods are you using?
@@ZeroTo60Tube cp pistons and brian crower rods
@@Glo_Natee doing it properly! i like
Curious, after decking the head and/or block, how much do you think/figure can you take off before having to get a thicker head gasket?
Measure the deck to piston height.. that tells you how much you can safely remove
Athena cutring quality is bad
We had 6 failures with athena cutring on 6 different engines,all had the same issue
Leaking coolant and oil externally from day 1
Also we try to fix the issue with retorque but didnt work
The issue with Athena is that the rings are made wrong vs the gasket thickness so the ring dont let the paper gasket to seal the coolant and oil
If you want a cutring gasket that work speak with Gemoflan race gaskets in Greece
We run Gemoflan custom cutring gaskets on our builds with zero issues
I missed the n54 content
Hey I went with ACL "standard" clearance rod bearings and ARP Rod Bolts on my 8 bolt converted 335is. Which exact bearings & rod bolts are you planning on using? Im curious. The rest of my engine is stock and unopened.
I went extra clearance on the bearings..... i think. I ordered them 2 years ago now wahhhh. But i like the idea of extra clearance. Help protect them when everything is at twisting and melting point.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Whats the part number? The one’s that I have are part number 6B1584HX-STD. Interestingly enough where I bought them from (Amazon) it states that the have .001" extra clearance.
However I went on FCP Euro and on there the matching part number doesn’t say anything about extra clearance. There was another listing on FCP Euro with a different P/N that did mention the .001" extra clearance…
@@2stocke9x the HX relates to extra clearance. But its extra on a stock ground crank.
@@ZeroTo60Tube I guess they weren’t lying when it lists .001" extra clearance. My crankshaft is the stock untouched 8 bolt (gen 1 N54) one. But in my case in a 335is which came with a 6 bolt. Have you opened each side by side? The 8 bolt has no cut outs in between cylinder walls, but the 6 bolt does. My tuner Ken @ Wedge says on the 6 bolts those cylinder walls are prone to cracking at high temps.
Also seen video Indian i gues making head gasket by hand and packing elring labaled package.
id gauge the surfaces before blaming the gasket
you ever used those Metal intake covers from china?
Do you mean the inlet manifolds?
]
@@ZeroTo60Tube sorry, I meant metal valve cover
@@rllamas14 i dont see any advantage. They do exactly the same as the plastic ones and a new plastic one will last 5-10 years. There are issues with cast alloy being pourus mild concern with the china ones. I guess they are better if you want to paint them. I would really like one of the billet style covers ideally. They tend to really tidy up the engine bay.
Did you ever find out why the motor was originally knocking?
This motor never knocked.
The built one however…….. it had a loose bolt on the power steering pump. It was insane how much is sounded like rod knock.
@@ZeroTo60TubeAwesome thanks for letting me know. Do you have any recommendations for upgraded main cap bolts/studs?
@@maxcutie822 I dont believe that would be needed. Theres a few engines running over 1100whp stock main caps and bolts and staying together........ for now.
@@ZeroTo60Tube Is there anyway i can contact you privately ive got a couple questions about the kingtec stuff if you dont mind. im planning on doing a budget build soon
Sup mate these Athena are worse than MLS, save yourself troubles don't try, i know multiple people that blew these at sub 600
Got some more info to share? Reasons for failure etc?
@@ZeroTo60Tube First guy was on CTS at 22psi @ E40, only thing the shop had in stock so they assembled the engine with it, blew up as soon as we dialed up the boost. Second guy was running HP650 on straight E85, both guys had pressure in the coolant system. First went with OE after that, no issues to this day, the other got a victor reinz, also no issues to this day.
What sort of power were they making? Did you see any photos of the failure point?
@@ZeroTo60Tube Unfortunately i don't. Both sub 600 at the time of the failures happening, now both are around 620-630ish actually