Essential Christianity and Ecumenism-- Francis Chan, Hank Hanegraaff & KP Yohannan (Hank Unplugged)
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2020
- The Key to Christian Unity is Humility…. is the second episode in this four part series of round table conversations and addresses the prayer for unity made by the Lord in His High Priestly Prayer “that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” Many have said that the first step towards unity is humility-so how do we humble ourselves and pursue unity over the essentials of the historic Christian faith despite our differences?
Topics discussed include: Francis Chan addresses the issue of tribalism between Christian Churches and how to reconcile that with the Lord’s High Priestly Prayer that we might be one (0:25); can we unite over the essentials of the historic Christian faith by appealing to the maxim “in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty and in all things charity?” (6:45); what we can learn from the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican as we engage with believers in Christ from different Christian traditions (12:30); a lesson of inclusivity that Metropolitan Yohan learned from George Verwer after writing Revolution in World Missions (14:10); the greatest doctrine is love (18:15); the criticality of working towards unity in the body of Christ in response to the Lord’s High Priestly Prayer “that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me” (20:45); responding to Francis Chan moving to Hong Kong (24:35); Francis Chan discusses his love for evangelizing to those who have never heard the name of Christ while also feeling convicted about inviting people into the family of God while there is disunity in the body of Christ (28:15); the answer to the Lord’s High Priestly Prayer starts with humility (33:50).
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Ignatius in his letter to the Smyrnaeans: “When the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”.
Very well said
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.” -Jesus
@@jamesstandifer1683 Indeed, but only within His Church, James: not in the gatherings of separatists and heretics. Read Paul and John and the entire early Church on schismatics and antichrists.
Thank you for sharing your opinions and reasoning with us, my friend. Since you are vehemently opposed to the law, can we accurately describe your company as the mystery of lawlessness, possibly?
@Buff 4A7 "I have not come to abolish the law" - Jesus
I had many of the same questions as Pastor Chan. I found my home in Holy Orthodoxy (2.5 years now). A journey to join myself to the bride of Christ. It has been the most incredible journey I wish all my protestant brothers and sisters could go on.
If you were a Protestant, you were already "joined to the bride of Christ".
@@mjt1517Which one? The Baptist? The Church of Christ? The Assembly of God? Or any of the thousands of other "Protestant" churches?
@@elchingon561 As a christ follower . Are you ok ,were not catholic
I so hope everyone from every denomination sees this discussion
It is more important to grow in love than to grow in knowledge.
More, more, more! We need more of this open-hearted, open-handed, open-minded discussions where unity does not have to mean uniformity, but that unity means charity amongst the flock that our testimony is not veiled. Beautiful discussion yet again! Thank you brothers!
Authentic, ancient, and beautiful Christianity. So refreshing. So deep and full of wisdom. ❤️
Beautifully said! When we love Christ, we love others. When we love ourself more than our God and neighbor, we fight. Well said, brothers, well said.
Francis Chan’s (and my own) conservative evangelical Protestant tradition tends to close itself off from the wider body. It’s so great to see Chan asking sincere questions and engaging in this dialogue. Hank’s journey to Orthodoxy is instructive too. Love this series.
This is amazing to me. Francis Chan indirectly made me question reformed Theology, and made me question the way we do Church in America, and Hank was the one that made me research Holy Orthodoxy and Church history; I was Charismated two years ago.
I’m sorry to hear that. I’d like to point out that the unity that these men push for is a false unity. Christ came and warned that he would set families against each other. He also warned us to be careful when all men speak well of you. I believe it is Paul who asks, “What fellowship has light with darkness?” Please don’t let these men deceive you, they have false unity and blur essential doctrines like sola fide.
@Larson what alternative understanding of unity would you suggest?
@Lance Patterson: What did Christ preach in John 17:21?
@@ThePattersonPod there will be disunity between believers and unbelievers. Families will split between believers and unbelievers. Christ prayed for unity of his disciples though. You’re making an accusation that simply isn’t accurate. We are all called to unity. We are called to hold fast to the traditions taught by Jesus Christ and his apostles either by word or letter. In Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is no advocation for division, there are repeated calls for unity in Christ.
I understand that your theology necessitates the view you’ve given here though.
Once a Protestant, recently became a Catholic. Recently learned about Traditional Catholicism or actual “Catholicism” and I must state it’s been a hard but amazing journey and I am very grateful, Praise to You Lord Jesus Christ! Thanks be to God!
Pastor Francis Chan has visited Hawai’i a few times and I remember being in attendance of a couple of his sermons at New Hope Oahu.
I am glad to see brother Francis Chan look deeper into the history of Christendom and considering the Orthodoxy. I will pray for you Pastor Francis Chan. May God continue to guide you and bless you on this journey.
Praying for more to Return to Tradition.
God bless you all.
Christ is Lord!
I love Francis Chan so much. He talks so humbly and he shows himself from this vulnerable side of imperfection and in the need of God's grace. I love how he understands the struggles we christians face, that many don't talk about, the misconceptions in the church and the prejudices, since he talks from his own experience. This is a serious issue that most of us have, yet the way people talk about those things is in condemnation and in judgement, while Francis Chan approaches those things with a vulnerable, understanding heart and in the need of God's correction. I love this.
These have been such a blessing to me as a life long Evangelical on the verge of becoming a catechumen. Glory to Jesus Christ!
@Joe Gar Where do you think the Bible came from. And what came first the Bible or the Church?
Are you a catechumen in the Orthodox or Catholic Church? Either way. Welcome to historical Christianity.
@@Lepewhi the Orthodox church!
@Joe Gar So, let me get this right. Christianity didn't begin until the reformation??? Have you even read the Early Church Fathers? I doubt it. It really doesn't matter what you think anywqy.
@@rebekahbrown2817 Well, I'm sure you are welcomed.
Hi Guys, just want to say thank you for another wonderful discussion. As a Protestant Evangelical,I’m really encouraged by this lovely Christ centred conversation. The fruits of the spirit is so important even when we may disagree.I see patience, love and gentleness in this conversation. On your point about humility I’m reminded of what Saint Silouan the Athonite said “Only to the humble does the Lord reveal himself in the Holy Spirit, and if we do not humble ourselves we shall not see God. Humility is the light in which we may behold the light which is God- in the words of the Psalmist in thy light we shall see light” I pray that we have humility to know the truth and experience God to the full. Look forward to the next video 👍
as a catholic I couldn't agree with you more on this!
Amen
Thank you Francis Chan for the passion. Thank you Hank Hanegraaff for astute explanations & KP Yohannan for your humility. That is so true, we all see dimly
Hank ... many years ago I was a Oneness Pentecostal ... and I did not like Hank Hanegraaff. Then there was this odd journey where I encountered Francis Chan. I loved Chan. He challenged me deeply. Then I wound up an Orthodox convert rejoicing to receive Hank (like a real Paul is now a Christian experience for me). Then these videos. I weep. You both are voices for the Gospel - powerful. You are in my constant prayers. May the risen Lord continue to use you both for His Eternal Glory+++
Can I ask...why did you become orthodox? I'm evangelical so just curious about your journey. Thx.
@@SaHayes-it2uw hey thanks! You know, it has been a life long journey with many Divine appointments along the way. As I said above I began as a very young Oneness Pentecostal. I actually began to preach publicly at about 15 years old. By the time I reached my mid 20s I was pastoring a congregation (talk about growing up quickly :) ). But it was in my 20s that several things aligned to knock me off my footing with regards to my faith in Christ. I had tremendous struggles with aspects of things I had been taught. It was like pulling on a thread and it unraveled me. Once I started questioning, it was like I didn't know how to stop. It went from "why should I believe this doctrine" to "why should I believe the Bible"? This was, of course, the precipice of the slippery slope through loosely defined "Christian" spirituality to outright "spiritual but not religious".
It was at that point that I began to study various religions. My idea was to come to a syncristic understanding. To find the underlying truth of all religions. Oddly enough, and by God's mercy, I did encounter the truth...but not in a way I had anticipated. Everything I studied kept bringing me back to Christ. Buddhist literature...they are talking about Christ. Hinduism...Christ. It finally got through...Christ. He is the truth, and this is acknowledged by everyone in some way it seems. Perhaps distorted...but understood on some level.
So...with a renewed conviction I decided to return to Christ. But with no assumptions. I wanted to know the "real" Christ, apart from anyone's tradition. I studied everything Christian, became an armchair scholar on ancient gnosticism. It was in this search that I kept tripping over the "Eastern Church" and their views on things. Again, the clues started to add up...ok, what is this Eastern Church?
When I finally showed up at St Luke's Orthodox Christian Church, I was a open enough to this "expression of Christianity" ... that's how I looked at it. It seemed as good as any. But it was there that the Christ I had been seeking found me. He suprised me. I told my priest that I came there feeling like an adult among children, but I was overwhelmed soon with the feeling of being a child among fathers. The more I read, the more I was overwhelmed. At some point I gladly surrendered to the overwhelming call. I was home at last.
Looking back I see myself in the story of the Prodigal Son. I remember times of spiritual starvation where I would dined with the swine. I am glad to serve in his house...but he has called me a son. Glory to Jesus Christ!
Did I mention that it is a long story ;)
My heart was moved with tears of Love by your love for one another. Pray more of our One Body of Christ replicates your humble example and overflows God's Grace to others that He may be honored and glorified 💖☦️🙏
What do you mean by the one body of Christ? The sum of all denominations?
I am also now moving in the direction of orthodoxy. ✔️
Thank you, gentlemen.
I pray that the Lord will show me truth. I also pray that the Lord will give me the strength and courage to follow the truth he reveals to me, even if that truth is contrary to what I grew up believing.
Wonderful! After a long road of studying church history I found my way into the Anglican Church. I never thought I would leave the Baptist Church. I completely agree that God does not want us to be separated any longer. We are one family with one goal. The church could do so much good if we all worked, prayed and loved together.
I was evangelical with the same yearnings at 33:13, attended several churches, high and low. Reverted to Catholicism. Faith and grace explosion. Everything I was searching for and more. And the deposit of faith, so rich, so deep. Hope Francis keeps searching.
As I Catholic I find this absolutely beautiful and informative!
I have recommend your videos to other interdenominational debate by Catholics. God has taught me the direct way by firstly putting me with the poor Aboriginal people in Australia for 20 years and now I am on an island in Thailand 99.9% Buddhist living next to the Bhuddist for temple 5 years. Amazing life lessons!
A catholic priest mentioned this dialogue. I am Catholic. Very civil discourse.
What we all need, mutual respect.
Francis really needs to speak with folk like Dr Scott Hanh and Dr David Anders.
Or Josiah Trenham...
This would be incredible!! 🙏🙏🙏
Or Jeff Cavins, Trent Horn...
This is soooo good! It was so crazy hearing about unity and reaching the unreached as such huge passions for all of you when it’s been something God has been laying on my heart. Thanks for sharing with us!
Hearing people say that the Coptic martyrs weren’t “real” Christians is what led me to research the Orthodox Church. I realized that I knew nothing about it, even though I was making negative assumptions about it. I definitely could not believe for a second that they weren’t true Christians, but that challenged my assumptions of orthodoxy.
May God bless you Francis Chan 👉✝
FC is already one of the most blessed men alive
I am looking forward to hearing this!❤️🙏🏻
This was good, it's true so many people fighting about doctrine and say holy spirit told me it was true then there's so many churches say the same thing one has to be correct.
Yet no one looks at the first 1500 hundred years of Christianity.
How ever even though there not orthodox, they still brothers and sisters in Christ let Christ show them and bring the people outside of the church to the ancient truth where Christians were martyred for what they believed amen
Well, they go by different gospels. How many gospels did Christ bring us? Only one? Well, in that case at least one of these gentleman is going by a false gospel. No rocket science.
I was in a denominational/traditional church years before. Today being a spirit filled tongue-speaking worshipping believer in love with God, I can testify that I cannot think of going back to where I was nor uniting with them or tolerating anything that fails to have life but only letter and words. I think the problem is we do not want to humble ourselves nor be a fool for the things of God. We just want to have it all right and appear all right even if it wud mean draining of our own spirit. How great is the Life and the Spirit that God has to offer, but only if we cud lay down our foolish crowns and be willing to be so poor before Him that he may fill us with His riches.
But no, we do not follow Him as we shud nor do we let others follow Him as they ought to. We become an obstacle in their way. One way to check is- luk at the fruits of the followers, luk wer they are. Becoz of the leaders having the head knowledge alone and not having the adequate spiritual power to lead the people under them or anybody, the lives of these people have become so dry and miserable. A dead church is what it is, full of words but no life nor power. Even the so called full-time dedicated people under them need rescuing. I think this a great crime that is done to them, for which God shall hold them accountable. Why lead, if the person knows in their heart they are trying to be something which they are not.
To the contrite, to the broken and to the one who dosent hides his sin He shall give His Grace.
He is a Holy God that seeks for His children to be Holy like Him and not be unequally yolked with the proud, the deceived and the corrupted. Worship Him, not in our own terms but His!
You say you speak in tongues. What known human language do you speak in?
Amazing video ! Hank is amazing !
What an incredible conversation!
Thank you, men! What a true witness to so humbly seek unity. I was a reformed pastor, serving a church and also pursuing post graduate studies in seminary when I seriously began to deal with the early Church, since it was my focus of study. For brevity, my path lead to becoming Catholic. As part of the Western Church, I so happily love my sister Eastern Church. Pope Saint John Paul II, refers to our East and West connection as the church that must breath with two lungs, “Ut Unum Sint”, that we may be one. I have great hope that this unified life giving breath will come to fullness and endure, for Christ has built his Church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against her. I pray for you, brothers Francis and Hanegraaff, because I know the difficulties you face from those that come at you that are dear friends in the Lord. May almighty God continue to bless you men in all that he has given you to do. I agree with other comments about reaching out to Scott Hahn, also a former reformed pastor and convert to Catholicism. God used his example to help form me. I pray for continued humility and peace for the sake of Christ’s Church!
Love brother Francis, been studying the early church / orthodox / catholic. I still can’t where people “convert” or “join” these sections. All my studies make me love Him more and enjoy my relationship and want others to see the beauty of unity. Simply becoming more in my identity as His son noting else, from what I read that God’s goal for all His children. We really gotta get the other titles out of the way so the smirks and remarks end.
I need RUclips to recommend more videos like this in my feed. I'm getting really burnt on watching all these talking heads bash everyone that doesn't believe the exact same things that they do. Discourse such as this is extremely refreshing.
yes, it is.
All three sound very sincere neither one of them are saying I have it all figured out or are trying to look down at each other because of certain views and this is my first time learning of and hearing from K.P Yohannan he really seems like he’s trying not to be misunderstood really show his love for God and people I think he’s pretty awesome I really appreciate him!
Praise God.....may WE all be ONE HIM. Most beautiful prayer of our Lord and let it be ours
John 17 is one of my favorites and I share every sentiment expressed regarding church unity😭😭🙏🏾
Unity is such a deep subject that once we’ve attained it then and only then can we understand how Jesus is in unity with God the Father
What a huge blessings to hear from these three men of God...praise Jesus!
This is the second conversation in a four part series between Francis Chan, Hank Hanegraaff and Metropolitan Yohan. Subscribe to the channel if you're interested in hearing the next episode and stay tuned! God bless!
So someone else put this up.
A great blessing! Thank you.
God works through you guys to increase me opening my life as a living sacrifice to him and my love for all other brothers in our Lord Jesus Christ. God bless you all and keep working his glory through you.
Unity looks like this: “The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come!’” (Rev 22:17)
The personalities of Francis and Hank , are so different......, and yet they have their faith in common, and so it’s a credit to them to display such patience and tolerance for each other. It would not have been possible 20 years ago.....as they were indeed poles apart.
No, they exactly do not have their faith in common. They go by two different Gospels. That is why they are having this meeting and discussion.
Amazing gift to the Body at this time --- Jn 17 & Pslam 133 ---- unity, untiy, unity in love and truth!
I sincerely enjoyed this conversation as an evangelical who has been researching Orthodoxy for the last year.
Men has made the simplicity of the gospel so complicated making up denominations, religions ,theology etc.
I prefer to seek the fullness of the Spirit who will guide me to all truth.
This is so beautiful.
This was amazing
Good series guys! I made a video response on the "Heretics" segment...great topics!
I've long admire Chan as a model of sincere Christian expression, and Orthodoxy has been seriously on my radar for the last half a year or so; this conversation has been both personally timely and helpful.
I appreciate the necessity of the boundaries established by the Church to protect the flock from theological innovations, and I see how chaotic the schisms of the last thousand years appear in that light. But, and may God correct me if my thinking is rebellious here, some of my reading of and listening to Orthodox commentary strikes me as a divisiveness borne more out of temperament than the teachings of Christ.
In Luke 9, the disciples tried to stop a man from casting out demons in Jesus' name because he wasn't part of their group, but He rebuked them saying "Whoever is not against you is for you."
Metropolitan Yohannan brings up the example of Sadhu Sundar Singh who, as far as I know, never joined a Canonical Church (the Angligans tried to claim him, but he seemed to stay a non-denom 'Man of God' all his life).
God have mercy on all us sinners...
Beautiful words! The best thing I can say is simply the ancient, "Come and see!" Once you're a part of "the family" you understand the way the family talks. ❤️🙏
@@innocentgreen1338 very well said, my family's conversion experience has been really amazing, we've fallen in love with holy Orthodoxy, but the initial step to go to our first liturgy was kind of scary. So glad we took the leap of faith after a long period of reading and thinking about it, its been more wonderful than I can explain.
@@patricklandfair4945 Glory to God! Us too!
Ivan regarding Luke 9:
“I don’t see how this has anything to do with ecclesiology
It is a principle of co-operation that we still follow- when someone is doing something in Jesus’ Name that is good- even if they are outside the Church- we thank God for it
We don’t trivialize their position outside the Church however.”
@@saenzperspectives It seemed relevant because Jesus was not making a move to incorporate this man into His specific fellowship (the inference being that He considered him already a member of His flock).
This is, of course, my 'Invisible Church' bias speaking, and I will consider your perspective, thank you.
The Church is a society of believers, founded by the Lord Jesus Christ, redeemed by His sufferings on the Cross, united among themselves by one true faith under the Head of Jesus Christ, with the lawful priesthood ordained successively from the Apostles, participating in the reception of the Holy Sacraments, in which the grace of St. Spirit to receive eternal life. The Church is the Body, the head of which is Christ.
Hank needs to recite the creed to him and not be afraid to proclaim the faith! One Holy Catholic and Apostolic church.
^ truth
Lord, make us one as you and the Father are one! 💗
If you mean all Christians who believe in and follow Jesus to be One, yes. But, I definantly won't be joining the Roman Catholic Church anytime soon.
Yes as Francis Chan said ! We need to figure this out !
That's simple; read the Bible.
@@xenofonz7640 that's amusing. Does all protestants, min. of 200+ denominations, read their bible. In 500+ yrs have they figured it out?
@@essafats5728 Well many have and many haven't. If one can't figure it out from the Bible then I pity them because there isn't an easier way.
@@xenofonz7640 Sola scriptura I see. The Early Church Father's (closest learnt from the Apostles and who taught them B4 they oass also provide insight
*passed* on
Being Catholic (ie also Orthodox) is important. Yesterday was the feast day of St Miriam (the Lily of Palestine). How can such a life be possible? But such lives illuminate the Body of Christ in wonderful ways for over 2,000 yrs since Christ. I love Francis Chan for over 10 yrs. The wisdom of the Church is essential. Don’t get it confused with church politics which down through the ages up to today has often been poisonous. There is great beauty in the Church. The Eucharist is powerful.
To be one we all have to have the same belief! We can’t have as billion different beliefs! We have to have one. Christ never changed either did his church! Seek to enter into his church! The church that never changed its beliefs or dogmas or theology
Drinker_Of_ Milk that’s not true, faith can bring you too it
@Drinker_Of_ Milk Have you even read the Church Fathers?
Drinker_Of_ Milk the orthodox that has changed I would stay away from
Um, are you sure? What church hasn’t changed? Are you saying the Apostles and fathers walked around with candles ceremonially and had the same practices of worship? I’m pretty sure Christ condemned the tradition of men, which is present in Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Church. And when did God give men the right to reach into Heaven, pull down Christ and sacrifice Him on the altar for a remembrance of the Lord’s supper? I mean eating Jesus in the eucharist in the abomination called communion.
@@jeremysmith2724 so should we just all believe 1 million different things and agree to disagree? That’s the way of the world. That’s not Christ way. Christ said have one mind one belief one faith. Not 1000 different faiths. He said I will be in them and make my abode with them how was he supposed to make his abode with me if it’s not through the Eucharist? As an Orthodox Christian we believe that God became man so that men could become like God. Does that mean that we have all the power of God has?no. Does that mean we should sacrifice our way of living as much as we are able? Yes. Does that mean the date it is deeper than just a scholastic way of understanding things? Well of course it’s God. You have to step outside yourself and outside of the worlds way of looking at things. To see why God became man why men have to reach for God!
This is very deceptive. You can tell this as soon as Francis Chan talks about how he was too focused on truth and had to refocus on love. False teachers love to set two realities against each other. We speak the truth in love, and we have unity around truth. Unity without truth is false love. This is destructive to the sheep, and it shows that these men may be hired hands.
What fellowship has light with darkness?
Jesus said ... "By this shall all men know that you are my disciples ... if you have LOVE one for another."
Truth is, of course, important ... but LOVE covers a multitude of sins. Paul says that we now see through blurry glass, ... but that LOVE would endure to the end.
The key to relationships is LOVE. God's LOVE conquers the awful truth of our sinfulness. LOVE is the only thing which will hold together Jews and Gentiles, rich and poor, slaves and free ...
1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abide faith, hope, and love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I have reservations when John McArthur attacked Hank for becomming an Orthodox Christian,using language that was ungracioius. Hank's response was one of Grace and he nails it here again In stating "In Essentials Unity,in non essentials Liberty and in all things Charity "
Praise The Lord
“If this ethos of humility must prevail in the relations of the faithful toward the persecutors of the Church, how much more so should it prevail in the existing relations among Christians themselves! The peaceful resolution of existing differences in inter-Christian relations by no means implies estrangement from truth. For truth does not fear dialogue; on the contrary, truth employs dialogue as a means of finding acceptance and favor even among those who for various reasons reject it.”
“Some, who already belong to the Church, fear that an invitation to unity, if extended in the interest of peaceful coexistence to the heterodox and to those of different faiths, invariably conceals some concession of the truth. They believe that his somehow entails an acceptance of syncretism or even that this unity is pursued within the framework of abandoning certain truths in order to agree on others purely and simply for the sake of unity. However, their perception is not truth; the unity of Christians cannot possibly achieved outside the one and only Jesus Christ, who does not accept contradictory or different accounts and descriptions.”
“Ultimately, this is what we regard as the goal of dialogue-namely, the formation within us of that spiritual condition through which we will be able, by the grace of God, with pure minds and selfless intentions, to see truth itself in person, our Lord Jesus Christ, in His actual glory. When we have achieved this, we are filled with ecstasy and wonder at the vision of Mount Tabor, and all mortal flesh is silent, standing with fear and trembling. For then the soul stands in the presence of the king of glory, whom it has desired. In His presence, many of the problems dividing us imperfect human beings, and especially those issues bearing on personal conditions and distinctions, are minimized and become as nothing. Indeed, we too wonder how we could attribute such significance to these problems.”
“Indifference to doctrine undermines interest in the truth. But the excessive treatment of minutia in doctrinal issues, which demand special training and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit for right understanding and proper articulation, entails the danger that the believer might put aside what directly concerns his salvation and instead try to become an expert and judge on issues in which he is not competent to pass judgment and does not understand…especially theologians or “theologizers,” who search for doctrinal errors in ecclesiastical speeches and texts, projecting their knowledge as superior to that of others.”
Thank you for shuch great explanation, Am so proud to be CATHOLIC, now and for ever until JESUS come for my soul. AMEM
I love these videos - when are part 3 and 4 coming out?
Time for him to talk to Catholic scholars.
Questions from Orthodox to non-Orthodox (heterodox):
1. When did believers like you appear?
2. Who founded, laid the foundation for your creed and created the first as your community?
3. Who so believed (like you) in the 1,2,3 and until the 16th century ? Name at least one person for every century.
4. Does your creed resemble the teachings of the Apostles and their successors?
5. Do you have any succession from the Holy Apostles or some kind of connection with the ancient Christian Church?
6. How many times and how has your creed changed?
7. Is there evidence that a soul who professes and believes like you was saved after death, that is, escaped hell and was rewarded with the kingdom of heaven?
8. Who are heretics? (Tit. 3: 10,11; Gal. 5: 19-21 Give examples of heretics).
9. Who are the sectarians? (Matthew 18: 17. Give examples of sectarians).
10. What is your teaching on the Church of Christ? (Tell us about the properties of the Church. How do you interpret the second hemisphere of the Gospel of Matthew 16: 18 “... I will create My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”)
Interesting your view on the history of the Christian Church, so give a very brief overview of the life of the Church in history .
Good question...I guess I would have to go back to Acts 2 and 1 & 2 Timothy where individuals received the Spirit and walked in love without icons and symbols (or at least they were not explicitly documented in Scripture).
@@rodneymoore2671 Acts 2: 47 - "... And the Lord added to the church daily, such as should be saved."
If salvation is outside the church, then why should those who are already being saved be applied to it?
Titus 1: 5 - "For this reason I left you in Crete, so that you would complete the unfinished business and put elders (ἐπιδιορθώσῃ) in all the cities, as I ordered you."
Acts 14: 23 - "Having ordained elders for them in every church (χειροτονήσαντες δὲ αὐτοῖς κατ᾿ ἐκκλησίαν πρεσβυτέρους), they prayed with fasting and gave them up to the Lord, in whom they believed." These two quotes say very clearly that without the elders (ἐπιδιορθώσῃ and πρεσβυτέρους) ordained (χειροτονήσαντες) by the Apostle, the work is not finished, incomplete, not completed, imperfect.
Lk.10: 1; 17-19;
Acts 9: 17-18; 13: 1-3;
2Ti1:6.
What's ironic is that many of the answers for Eastern Orthodoxy to the questions you posed would not be acceptable to Roman Catholicism, and the remaining questions are arbitrary and non sequitur.
@@orthodoxfaith4785 your comment assumes that an unbroken line, which there's no way you could prove without a doubt anyways, is actually necessary.
There already is Christian unity, we shouldn't speak in this way. The Church is and has always been and always will be united because the Church is Christ and Christ cannot be divided from Himself. There are many sincere truth seeking people who are tragically separated from the Church, but we do them no good to tell them that they're already somehow "in" the Church. It would be like a doctor telling a cancer patient that he doesn't have a disease, it's not a loving act. We are called to love even our enemies, and so of course we love sincere people who desire to follow Christ, but we cannot call these people "our brothers in Christ". This presupposes the same faith, and the same participation in the Mysteries and the Eucharistic life of the Church, being members of the Body of Christ. We absolutely know where the Church is as well as where the Church isn't. The Church is the continuation of the Incarnation and it bears the same characteristic of being visibly identifiable. There was never a question of where Christ was. He was in Palestine 2000 years ago, and not anywhere else. This statement "we don't know where the Church isn't" is tragically a popular delusion that is widespread today and it is harmful and introduces confusion. Protestantism, Roman Catholicism, and other sects are delusions, they are spiritual sicknesses and they do harm do those who are misled by them. There can be no unity between truth and falsehood. We cannot say the Church is present within these sects. Of course God still loves these people and works in their lives, as He does for all people in the world, but this doesn't mean that these people are somehow mystically connected to the Church in some invisible way. Sincere people in heterodox sects are virtuous in spite of them being outside of the Church, and I think this is actually to their credit. We all as the prodigal son need to flee the city of delusion and return to the loving embrace of our Father in the one and only Church of Jesus Christ.
I agree but being orthodox my self. These protestants they do have a sincere love for Christ. To say they ant brothers and sisters in Christ is saying there not Christians. End of the day judgement will come n it will be up to Christ to judge the living and the dead and the kingdom shall have no end.
Also with that being said anything outside of the orthodox church we know its considered heretical . But then I ask my self what kind of God do we have if these protestant have a love of God but don't believe in the eucharist n all sacraments god has given us.
I truly believe god has given us salvation through the church yet for people who are outside of it they believe in holy trinity they believe Christ is king if I was a priest and say even they don't believe in the fundamentals would I baptize them of course I prob won't.
But I know Christ is loving and I guess if he was to condemn people outside of the church loving Christ n all worshiping him but not believing the sacraments n way of orthodox living then to still call them my brothers and sisters it's tuffy.
But would still say yes coz they are lovers of Christ
adam bartell the main problem living outside the church is that your dogma is not consistent. You have 33,000 denominations of Protestant’s all interpreting the bible how they seem fit. This is dangerous not only to ones soul but to others who are misled. Spring water is purest at its source.
@@SLVBULL
Of course why drink dirty water walk abit further up the hill and drink clean water at it's purest source.
But I think to say hank is calling his friends brothers and sisters in Christ is coz he sees the heart of the individual.
Christ will be leading them to orthodoxy but because Francis Chan isn't 1000 percent orthodox to say his not a brother n sister In Christ you still wouldn't say it coz where not god we don't know how Christ would perceive the Christians outside of the church who believe in Christ but not live the orthodox lifestyle
@@SLVBULL so I agree with you but it's harsh in a way if that makes sense
Christ can save anyone inside and outside the Orthodox Church. As an Orthodox Christian I believe that there are many devout Christians with a sincere love for Christ in- and outside the Church. But our christian life comes down to this: to become by grace what God is by nature: that is: holy and sinless, to become a saint. And only the Orthodox Church can offer a safe path to attain this! On that path we do not consider our opinion of things, but we put ourselves aside, our opinions and will, and we hand ourselves over to a spiritual father (better: Christ in him) and we trust and follow his discernment of the spiritual things. This is what we mean by 'safe'. The apostles had disciples, and those disciples had later on also disciples, and so on. This is how the path/method to holiness was handed down to this day.
I hope Francis Chan (this dear man!) will come to understand this. The Orthodox way of life is a completely different way of life, a life of crucifixion and glory that can not be explained unless you experience it. He should go for a week or 2 to Mount Athos and he will see that the Christian life is not a life of emotions, of talking about the Truth, it is simply an ascetic life and through this asceticism man becomes a vessel of grace.
I have some dificults with this ascetism based on the letter of Saint Paul to the church of Colossos. I understand my orthodox brethren but, apostolically I don't think asceticism is a way of sanctification. It's very easy to be a saint in a monastery, but it's hard to be a saint in places such as Rio de Janeiro or any other coastal brazilian city, but there is the place where you have to be a saint.
For a better reading about asceticism, read: ALL the letter to Colossians, specially: "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, rudiments: or, elements (Touch not; taste not; handle not; Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. neglecting: or, punishing, or, not sparing"
(KJV1769+ Col 2:20-23)
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received … thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things … thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine … whereunto thou hast attained … But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness. For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is … come … This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation …"
(KJV1769+ 1Tim 4:1-9)
Bodily exercise: A life of asceticism.
Josué Inhan hi! I can recommend for you to read about the life of saint Porphyrios, he was a monk and lived for a great part of his life in the middle of Athens, in a rough area. But even the monks in monasteries, they know like no other the ways of the evil one and how he is trying to destroy humanity.
The apostle Paul writes about asceticism, we have to make our body (read desires and passions) obedient to the spirit, instead of our spirit being obedient to our body
@@rwbrouwer also the fact that asceticism was a feature of Judaism and of Christ's own life/ministry.
Christians during the 1st century when the apostles and first Bishops still lived were selling all their earthly possessions and moving to caves in the desert to pursue Christ with every remaining second of life. Such a life of ceaseless prayer and struggle and was anything but easy.
Perhaps 16 centuries of Christian ascetics were all wrong until Martin Luther betrayed his own monastic vows and now only protestants are correct, but I think that's a pretty audacious position.
@@patricklandfair4945 dear one, see my answer to Roelien
THE " WAY...TRUTH...LIFE..AND PATH IS THROUGH CHRIST..NOT ANY DENOMINATIONAL ORGANIZATION... ONLY CHRIST!!.. HIM ALONE...GOD DOES NOT ACCEPT ANYTHING OTHER
Please keep me in prayer for unspoken prayers
Focus on all the Godly people and their faithfulness in this day and allow God to have his way with the rest! I love tour heart Francis. 😁
I would love to hear what Francis is thinking? I’ve been in his shoes and it’s hard to not have a church family to call home.
Pastor Francis has the Christian zeal of a Protestant Christian thirsting for the fullness of the church.
Francis Chan w/ Scott Hahn?
That is exactly what I want to see.
Please remember the Church is one, the problem of the myriad of schismatics is mainly a western problem. We in the west need to be, so to speak, "evanglised" into the correct understanding of the Church. It all starts at understanding the early Church with the help of the Church fathers as metro KP has been discovering and Francis Chan is learning of and Hank has found.
have moscow and constantinople reconciled yet?
chuddycuddles you mean, “did Putin stop putting abusive pressure on the Moscow Patriarch? Because neither Russians nor Greeks nor Greek bishops have an issue.
@@pontification7891 Indeed: the presence of so many schismatics is a western problem. Just as it was a problem for the early Church of Paul and John...
I could listen to these brothers in Christ & leaders in The Faith in so many more discussions. Their so humble & knowledgeable, we believers should be able to do this & learn from eachother & lift eachother up & edify one another. I need to remember that of Faith, Hope & Love the greatest of them is Love. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices w/ the Truth
Galations 3:1 was about Christians being bewitched by the Jewish legalistic Mosiac law teachers & trying to get them to turn from The Truth, The Grace of Messiah Jesus The Son of God back to keeping the Mosiac law. Im sure you dislike or find something to twist & pick apart from every believer that ministers or preaches. Their are plenty that I take issue w/ believe me & I dont hold back as I know The Scriptures, but remember lets not judge their hearts. I personally only listen to Hank Hannegraff out of these 3 but Yohan I would check out more, I appreciated the discussions they have had including this one, you should listen to it 1st. Pride is dangerous & love should abound always. Im always up for discussions. I looked at your channel briefly & correct me if wrong but are you KJ only? Great translation but some more rescent have newer manuscripts plus the same such as ESV, ASB, NKJ, I know there are sum I wouldnt touch which are obvious. May we both grow in The Grace of God & The Lord Jesus Christ
@@1john4six are you serious???? im sorry if I offend you even tho you clearly dont care who you speak against. You dont know me other than my edifying comment to other believers, that said "brothers in Christ" instead of Son of God. If you are that insane & trapped in your religious back biting, gossip, slandering then maybe you should search out your heart. Love God w/ all your heart, mind, soul & strength & love your neighbors as yourself, love covers a multitude of sins. I strongly believe in The Just, Holiness, Mercy & Grace of Almighty God & we are supposed to walk in love not your Pharisee spirit. You should know more about someone especially when their (me) is an Regenerated believer in The SON of GOD & Remember they overcame by The blood of Lamb Jesus Christ & the word of their testimony. Maybe dont let your testimony be attacking believers in Messiah Jesus, The King of Kings & Lord of Lords. Im really blown away, thats your thing?? If somebody every time they mention our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ, doesnt say Son of God you attack them????? Please w/ out writing all The Scriptures that I know & love, just answer me plainly please
Funny thing is that I always give Praise, Honor & Glory to my Great God & Savior Jesus Christ in whom all things consist. I thank God everyday for conveying me & others into The Kingdom of The Son of His Love. The Word of God doesnt always say The Son of God when mentioning Jesus Christ, is that a problem for you?? God knows exactly where our heart is & that I speak of Him The King of The Universe, may He open your eyes & heart to know that love matters most, Love in The Son of God & love for eachother. God Bless in The Name above every Name Jesus Christ The Son of God
@@1john4six eventually you gotta ask yourself why you dont have any fellowship or edifying relationships w/ real believers in Jesus Christ. Somebody should tell you its when the world hates you because they have no place in & hate The Son of The Living God Jesus Christ, not fellow believers. Were supposed to walk in love not fill up our hearts w/ contentions towards one another. Do you think The Lord would be pleased w/ you that your judging everybody's heart & eternal destiny, for Him. Apostle Peter told Jesus you are The Christ. Paul said nobody can call Jesus Lord but w/ The Holy Spirit. You must know there are other scriptures speaking of Jesus but not saying The Son of God. Even when Hes being born Hes Emmanuel. Are you possibly the only correct one on the planet in your mind?? Circumcise that pride out of your heart, it will help you
@@1john4six a text w/ out a context is just a pretext to say whatever you want it to. Anybody can take 5,10,20 or more text from scripture & reply to someone & say this is to you when its completely baseless. Holding fast our profession/confession of Faith in The Son of God Jesus Christ, thats trusting, keeping faith in The Son of God & His Gospel that we have Peace w/ God by Him shedding His blood & dying for yours & my sins hence we come boldly to the Throne of Grace, not your no longer saved bcus you called Him The Christ, The Messiah, The Lord, Yeshua instead of The Son of God on an reply to others He died for. Its denying Him thats a problem, which when you love Him seems impossible eventho apostle Peter did 3 times & The Lord redeemed Him. Just consider the Truth of Gods Word & lift people up, I get rebuking wolves that dont preach Truth, & shy away from The Gospel of Jesus Christ but dont be one. I wont go back & forth anymore as I should have left it alone, we should not quarrel w/ eachother , so peace to you in The Name of The Son of The Living God Jesus Christ
Wearing a Cross is a silent proclamation of Jesus.
Or a fashion statement
we gain nothing at tearing someone else down. When I was an atheist and I asked the Lord: if you're real what should I do, a man turned around a corner at that very oment wearing a t-shirt saying faith in very big letters and he was wearing a crucifix . Without those symbols I wouldn't have gotten such a straight forward answer.
@@greglaprade7507 Reason #1 - Remembrance
To Remember What True Love Looks Like
The crucifix is different than the cross. The cross is the instrument of torture through which Jesus was murdered, a particular favorite of the Roman Empire. The cross is the altar on which the Son of Man offered Himself as an eternal sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins. The cross is the new tree of life. The cross is significant, but only because of the time Jesus spent hanging from it.
For some people the cross is scandalous. It is something they hold to be in the past. As a Catholic I believe that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross is eternal, and made ever-present at every Mass held everyday in every country around the world.
“But we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block for Jews and foolishness for Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
~ 1 Corinthians 1:23-24
Don’t get me wrong. I know Jesus is not on the cross. He is not dead. He is risen. In fact:
“A Catholic is one who believes that this Jesus remains alive, active, and accessible in and through His Church.”
~ Archbishop Timothy Cardinal Dolan
Jesus on the cross is what matters. It is the ultimate act of God’s love for us. To gaze upon the crucifix for me is to look upon love in its most perfect expression. In the busyness of my daily life I need to be reminded of that, and reminded often. The crucifix around my neck serves as a reminder of God’s love for the world, but particularly God’s love for me.
Reason #2 - Inspiration
To Inspire Me to Take Up My Cross Daily
The crucifix might be thought of as a gruesome sight. However, for me it is inspiring. To see Jesus on the cross is a reminder of the challenge He made to His disciples-the challenge He makes to me.
“If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself take up his cross daily and follow me.”
~ Luke 9:23
It’s not a suggestion or a good idea, it is the condition of discipleship. To be a disciple is to make your life about this challenge. And believe you me it is a challenge. This is why I need to be inspired. This is why I like to contemplate the image of Christ crucified, not because I enjoy seeing Him broken and bloody, but because I know those are the footsteps in which I must follow.
As a Christian I know I am called to be a martyr-a witness. Who I am in life and in death must bear witness to Christ. Whether that means I will literally lay down my life for Him I cannot be certain, but come what may, the challenge made to we disciples is just that-to accept the pain and suffering that can and will come our way because of our free decision to follow Jesus.
“Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
~ Matthew 5:10
Seeing Jesus on the cross is an inspirational example that I am called to follow, and this is another reason for the crucifix around my neck.
Reason #3 - Accountability
So Others Will Hold Me Accountable as a Christian
The last reason I wear a crucifix is for accountability. It is not jewelry. It is not meant to be flashy. But I do want others to see it. Not because I want them to think I am super holy, although I should be striving for holiness after all that is the call we share as Christians.
I wear a crucifix so that others may know that I am a Christian and hold me accountable to that claim. For it is one thing to tell people you are a Christian and another to show them that you are. I want to be treated different because of my faith. I want people to know that I live my life differently than most. When they know this they will expect me to. And if I don’t, then I need to called out for it.
Accountability is important. Fraternal correction is essential. We shouldn’t be able to parade around claiming to be new creations in Christ, but living lives that don’t follow suit. And the crucifix I wear is the perfect symbol of my faith that tells all those who encounter me that I am a Christian and take my faith seriously.
I can’t wear the crucifix and then deny my faith. It would cause scandal. People would notice. So it is the perfect way to invite others to challenge me to live my faith.
There may be other methods of achieving each of these three things shared here, but for me the crucifix is the best. If you wear a crucifix but don’t know why, then I hope these reflections have served to help you understand this practice on a deeper level. If you aren’t Catholic and always wondered why the crucifix is held in such high esteem among Catholics, then hopefully this explains it.
May the sacrifice of Christ on the cross bring the power of God’s love and mercy into each of our lives that we may “proclaim Christ crucified” (1 Cor 1:23) and “make disciples of all nations” (Mt 28:19).
@@titaniumsteel9114 I was referring to the fact that many secular celebrities and other people wear a cross as a fashion statement. No, I take God's Word very seriously... Sola scriptura... Scripture is my authority.
In France it would be the guillotine, in modern times it would be the electric chair or an assault rifle, my point is that it was the death machine of the day. We don't need to wear signs and symbols, as long as we are walking in the Spirit, we good.
I have felt this way for some time now, outside of the essentials maybe we will never all believe exactly the same but be unified. Not judging and saying my way is the only way. But what may bring you closer to the Father and be what you need in your sanctification journey isn't the same for everyone. So thankful I found these videos. I pray I always have a desire to learn.
Truth matter, life matters more? What kind of slogan is that? The ancient Catholic martyrs gave their lives for the truth and the modern world gives up truth for their lives. Where are you?
Hank Hanegraaff see an organic unity between truth and life; hence, the maxim: Truth matters, life matters more.” The authentic Christian life involves both truth and life. Whereas it is vital to know the truth, it is magnanimously important for a person to be transformed by the Truth. Hank puts it this way: “There can be no life without truth, but above all, no truth without life” (Hank Hanegraaff, Truth Matters, Life Matters More: The Unexpected Beauty of an Authentic Christian Life [Nashville, TN: W. Publishing Group, 2019], 86.) Put it another way: “While truth is necessary, it is hardly sufficient. That the map is not the territory. That the menu is not the meal. That we must never mistake the cradle for its occupant. And that we are destined even now to experience life that is life to the full” (Ibid., xxxiv.). Both truth and life go together hand in hand.
Faith and works go hand in hand. Authentic Christianity is more than just knowing some Bible facts, including the facts about Jesus in the Good Book. It is even more than just knowing the facts from the Good Book are true. The faith we place in the Scriptures transforms. Christianity has never been about being convinced about the truthfulness of a doctrinal statement, creed, or confession, though good theology is of infinite importance to the faith, it is impossible to have orthopraxy without orthodoxy, but authentic Christianity has always been about a relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ the Son according to the powerful ministry of the Holy Spirit.
Please see the articles..
www.equip.org/bible_answers/what-is-the-biblical-definition-of-faith/
www.equip.org/article/family-faith-and-father/
Hank explains all this in full detail in part 2 of Truth Matters, Life Matters More: The Unexpected Beauty of an Authentic Christian Life ~ www.equip.org/product/truth-matters-life-matters-more/
Hope all this clears up all the confusion!
@@BibleAnswerMan Well, to me your slogan sounds like you do not really insist on the one Gospel, but you might allow for any, as long as we "experience". We should remember that the spirit of antichrist also makes people to experience things, and makes them to believe in their own lies no less.
A slogan like yours would never pass through the Early Church: so much is certain. It smells like relativism and/or indifferentism towards the singular truth of the Gospel.
Cool I caught that too! It’s Truth matters more. Jesus pressed on the truth n he said if u giv your life u shall hav eternal life so who ever came up with that slogan does not truly know God’s words . 🙅🏻♀️wrong! Not true!
"In Essentials Unity, in non essentials Liberty and in all things Charity", I love this but is this really what Hank believes? The Eastern Orthodox is very exclusive.
Yes we think we are very smart and trying to interprets and understand what GOD is and even argues among each other who is right and wrong. What we need to know is, GOD is love. That's it. The rest are not important. At the end we going to face GOD alone and answer to him. Before him we are just innocent child of his.
Amen
It would be awesome if you got a good orthodox Catholic at the table too. Great conversation! Francis is a beautiful example.
Hank has had conversations with Roman Catholics. This one with Frank Beckwith (we have another with Frank coming up towards the end of this month) --ruclips.net/video/pxdYR4ClNLA/видео.html. And this one two years ago with Holly Ordway--ruclips.net/video/dn2TOvGZcOQ/видео.html
@@BibleAnswerMan please bring Scott Hahn into this conversation.
Any true believer that really walks with CHRIST will be brought to these mature truths that the reformation theology thru out with all old doctrine that was in the catholic church. Much catholic doctrine was bad, but as a pentecostal I always knew there was more to the eukurist than just a remembrance of a past event at the cross, as powerfull as that was historically it is still a verry real spirit to SPIRIT experience that the reformation theology never saw correctly. They have great head knowledge which we need but lack manifestation s of the LORDS PRESENCE that is still verry real.
I ask all my brother s and sister s in CHRIST TO LOOK AGAIN AT THE SCRIPTURE S WITHOUT YOUR DENOMINATIONAL lenses and you will learn truths by the holy SPIRIT that are marvelous and will bring you closer to the cross.
Spring water is purest at its source.
Which source is JESUS, God-the-Son and the words he spoke unto us. Is this what you're saying?
"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them **to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:** and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
You know what's interesting.....the blood flows in the shape of the cross when it travels through your heart. From the superior and inferior vena cava into the the atrium, through the ventricle, into the lungs and back to the atrium, then the other ventricle and out through the aorta.
Truth is offensive to those who don’t have it ! I understand it but The Holy Spirit is supposed to lead us into all truth, not tolerance or not even love , We must speak the truth in love and seek truth ....
We should be more loving to those of different denominations and branches , but we must try to figure this thing out and rightly divide truth ! Historic truth and scriptural truth
PAUL SAID LOVE IS SUPREME
WE CAN DISAGREE ON POINTS...BUT..WE ARE TO LOVE THE BRETHREN....ESPECIALLY WHEN THE POINTS OF DOCTRINE HAVE NO BEARING ON IF WE ARE CHRISTS PEOPLE?
IF ..NO LOVE... THE. HOLY SPIRIT MAY NOT BE AS OPERABLE IN YOUR HEART AS YOU PROCLAIM HIM TO BE...." GOD SO LOVED"..HE'S SO MAGNIFICENT!!!
I'd love to know what KP and Francis think of the overwhelming evidence (both biblical and historical) supporting Apostolic Succession. Is it something that can be waved away as being non-essential?
KP explains the importance of Apostolic Succession in Never Give Up. Please listen to the Hank Unplugged episode with KP www.equip.org/unplugged/never-give-up-with-k-p-yohannan/ You can get all the details in Never Give Up > www.equip.org/product/never-give-up-the-story-of-a-broken-man-impacting-a-generation/
Drinker_Of_ Milk I believe that the Holy Spirit of God works everywhere. I also believe that, in those Christians seeking all truths and refusing to become complacent, He will lead them home. The Lord called Himself Truth, after all.
“We know where the Church is; we do not know where the Church is not.”
Overwhelming evidence? Only if you use question begging tactics and unwarranted extrapolations.
Love the Unity in Humility... Icons make me nervous sometimes (John 4:24); I see how the Israelites misused the bronze serpent on the pole until it was destroyed (2 Kings 18:4), and then they felt that they could live however they liked because they had the Temple (Jeremiah 7:4) until it was destroyed, and I wonder if that is also the reason that the Ark of the Covenant was lost. Israel always seemed drawn to the physical (Exodus 32:1)….they relied on the Nile (Egypt) and Euphrates (Assyria) instead of Yahweh.
Great discussions, i loved Francis Chan as an Evangelical, but i feel like there was much that was not spoken about in this conversation. Its easy to generalize the desire to become one, but there are indeed "Essentials" that major Christian groups simply disagree on. We can not simply ignore these Essential doctrines for the sake of unity. Should I as an Orthodox Christian unite myself in brotherhood to a Oneness Pentecostal group for the sake of bringing the church together? I think there should have been a much harder discussion about the realities of heresy. it is possible to do so lovingly and humbly - i feel a great opportunity was missed here. Regardless, many good things were discussed.
Good question. Unity in the Church is founded on agreement upon the essential doctrines of the faith. The Church affirms belief in a monotheistic Trinitarian deity - God is one in essence (substance) and three hypostases (persons). This stands in antithesis to other monotheisms - Judaism, Islam, modalism (such as the god of classic Oneness Pentecostalism), and so forth. Non-Trinitarian monotheisms are ultimately defective. See www.equip.org/article/allah-the-trinity-and-divine-love/#christian-books-3
Bad ecumenisms is declaring we are all friends, sharing how much we are alike, but navigating away from any uncomfortable talk on the doctrines that divide. The doctrinal debates can be done in the spirit of humility, gentleness and respect. There still can be less of a “Cold War” and more lines of communication established. See www.equip.org/articles/why-apologetics-has-a-bad-name/ and www.equip.org/article/naming-names-why-its-ok-and-necessary-to-call-out-false-teachers-and-fugitives-from-church-justice-by-name/
Hank Hanegraaff addresses this challenge in chapter 3 of Truth Matters, Life Matters more > www.equip.org/product/truth-matters-life-matters-more/
anybody have a link to this whole video in order?
You can download the full audios at the links below...
www.equip.org/unplugged/history-mystery-and-the-eucharist-with-francis-chan-and-metropolitian-yohan-k-p-yohannan/
www.equip.org/unplugged/the-key-to-christian-unity-is-humility-with-francis-chan-and-metropolitan-yohan/
Matthew 28 18 -20.
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
2nd Peter Chp 3:21.
John 3:3.
Remember this Mr. Chan, where Peter is, there the true Church is also.
So...heaven?
antiochia?
Peter was first in Antioch. It was his original seat.
Patriarch John X of Antioch is his successor in the Orthodox Church.
Please explain where Peter is now, it would be good to know. Last I heard, is that we as believers are all part of the body of Christ, Aka the church, so, where is Peter?
"It is a mistake to think that all Orthodox are really not sectarians and that all sectarians are really not Orthodox. Not every Orthodox by name is such in spirit, and not every sectarian by name is such in spirit, and nowadays in particular one can meet an "Orthodox" - a real sectarian in his spirit: fanatical, unloving, rationally narrow, resting on a human point, not hungry, not thirsting for the truth of God, but satiated with his proud truth, severely judging a person from the top of his imaginary truth - outwardly dogmatically right, but devoid of birth in the Spirit. And, on the contrary, one can meet a sectarian who clearly does not understand the meaning of Orthodox service to God in Spirit and Truth, does not recognize this or that expression of church truth, but in fact conceals in himself a lot of truly God, truly loving in Christ, truly fraternal to people." Archbishop John Shakhovskoy
HH could go a long way toward promoting unity by pulling some of his books off the market like Christianity in Crisis and The Counterfeit Revival.
You've got to be kidding!
Hank, do you believe that the Believers Eastern Church will join the Orthodox Church? I pray that your boldness in proclaiming the truth of Orthodoxy will bring them and many others into the Church as long as it is not watered down
Please do not give into Ecumenism, Hank. Do not water down the faith and scandalize people☦️
Good question. It is really best to get the answer to your question directly from the proverbial “horse’s mouth.” Please contact Believers Eastern Church (www.bec.org/contact/) to see where they are at with respect to a reunion with Eastern Orthodoxy.
@@BibleAnswerMan Are you saying that the two - or one - people at the right in this video are not even officially Eastern Orthodox? So what are they? Eastern Protestant?
What are you discussing about with Chan then? The one separatist tries to convince the other separatist of what? What do you try to accomplish then??
Well in 2009 KP was wearing Roman Catholic vestments in 2018 he changed to Syrian Orthodox Vestments. In 2013 a video of the then Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church Catholics mentioned how he was speaking with KP and team. These are all public videos on YT.
@@sambar101 Maybe KP should first establish firmly what he himself believes before teaching others what he himself does not have much clue on.
In order to have true unity, a person needs to be born again and filled with the holy spirit which leeds us in the full truth. No Mary worship, Pope and other unbiblical nonsence.
Solo mio
Catholics don't worship Mary or the pope.
And we are born again, the Bible way.
@@rfp313 Catholics do pray to and bow down to statues of Mary. That is worship. Mary is no Godes
@@vanderHoffTeachings We honor her. We do not claim she is a godess. In the Davidic Kingdom it is the mother of the king that is the queen. We honor her as Jesus honored and honors her. We don't "pray" to her as in "worship." We ask her to pray for us. If you look at the words of the Hail Mary, the first half is entirely taken straight from the Bible. The second half is a request for her to pray for us. That's all we ask her and our departed brethren to do. We ask them to pray for us just as you would ask anyone you know to pray for you. So either the saints are alive in Christ and in Heaven, or they're not. They are more alive than you or I. Nothing in scripture says that physical death separates a believer from the body of Christ. The saints are alive and Paul tells us to pray for one another.
In the Davidic Kingdom people would bring their petitions to the Queen Mother, who had the ear of the King. Same idea. She is no godess.
@@rfp313 It is not o.k. to pray to departed brethren either. There is only one mediator between God and us, and that is Jesus Christ. Sorry, but I have to reject these catholic practises.
❤
Converting to Eastern Orthodox has been on my heart for about 2 years. The modern church shall be and is judged by its fruits, and it is obvious that they do not produce good fruit! I am a reformed believer, and I am steady in the Lord, but I cannot bring myself to attend one of these sickening churches! I'm a young man with children and it is very disappointing walking into church after church only not to find any substance...
God bless you on your journey. I'm a former Reformed dude myself, my wife and I converted to Orthodoxy about 9 years ago after a 7-year long process of studying Christian history.
@@natedogg1777 Church history and the wealth of substance it brings is a major blessing. It makes the Faith much more vivid and real rather than experiencal, or maybe I should say more objective rather than subjective? I'm not sure, but there is a richness in the culture that is Orthodox.
St. Jerome, Letter to Pope Damasus 15, 2 (Inter 374-379 AD):
"I speak with the successor of the fisherman...Though I acknowledge none as first except Christ, I am joined in communion with your Holiness, that is to say, in communion with the Chair of Peter (PAPACY). I know that it is upon that rock that the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane."
AUGUSTINE
"[In] the Catholic Church, there are many other things which most justly keep me in her bosom. The consent of peoples and nations keeps me in the Church; so does her authority, inaugurated by miracles, nourished by hope, enlarged by love, established by age. The succession of priests keeps me, beginning from the very seat of the Apostle Peter, to whom the Lord, after His resurrection, gave it in charge to feed His sheep, down to the present episcopate. And so, lastly, does the name itself of Catholic, which, not without reason, amid so many heresies, the Church has thus retained; so that, though all heretics wish to be called Catholics, yet when a stranger asks where the Catholic Church meets, no heretic will venture to point to his own chapel or house. Such then in number and importance are the precious ties belonging to the Christian name which keep a believer in the Catholic Church, as it is right they should.... With you, where there is none of these things to attract or keep me.... No one shall move me from the faith which binds my mind with ties so many and so strong to the Christian religion.... For my part, I should not believe the gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church." (Against the Epistle of Manichaeus [Contra Epistolam Manichaei Quam Vacant Fundamenti.)
St. Peter Chrysologus, Letter to Eutyches 25, 2 (449 AD):
"We exhort you in every respect, honorable brother, to heed obediently what has been written by the Most Blessed Pope of the City of Rome; for Blessed Peter, who lives and presides in his own see, provides the truth of faith to those who seek it. For we, by reason of our pursuit of peace and faith, cannot try cases on the faith without the consent of the Bishop of the City of Rome."
In St. Paul’s epistle to the romans it says they can be cut off just like the Jews who rejected Christ. Romans 11:20.
@@m.filmtrip Not if you believe what Jesus said, "the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Speaking to Peter whom Jesus just established His Church on.
“Saint Augustine says Christ built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. (Sermon 229)
None of the fathers indicate papal supremacy. Rather, all of them indicate equality of the successors of the Apostles; the bishops.
Let's take Saint Cyprian Bishop of Carthage, who considered Peter the rock (but saw every bishop as owning the chair of peter) he says:
"Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power; but a commencement is made from unity, that the Church may be set before as one; which one Church, in the Song of Songs, doth the Holy Spirit design and name in the Person of our Lord: My dove, My spotless one, is but one; she is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her
(Cant. 9:6) (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1844), Cyprian, On The Unity of the Church 3, p. 133).
Saint John Chrysostom:
"For the Son of thunder(John), the beloved of Christ, the pillar of the Churches throughout the world, who holds the keys of heaven, who drank the cup of Christ, and was baptized with His baptism, who lay upon his Master’s bosom, with much confidence, this man now comes forward to us now "
(Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume XIV, Saint Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of John, Homily 1.1, p. 1).
St. Bede:
“Although it may seem that this power of loosing and binding was given by the Lord only to Peter, we must nevertheless know without any doubt that it was given to the other apostles…Indeed even now the same office is committed to the whole Church in her bishops and priests.”
[Bede the Venerable, Homilies on the Gospels: Book One: Advent to Lent, Hom. I.20, p. 202.]
St. Isidore of Seville:
“So Peter first received the power of binding and loosing, and he first led people to faith by the power of his preaching. Still, the other Apostles have been made equal with Peter in a fellowship of dignity and power. They also, having been sent out into all the world, preached the Gospel. Having descended from these apostles, the bishops have succeeded them, and through all the world they have been established in the seats of the apostles”
(De Ecclesiasticus, II.5, M.P.L., Vol. 83, Col. 781-782).
Origen:
"But if you think the whole church to be built by God upon that one Peter only, what would you say of John the son of thunder or each of the Apostles? Are we to venture to say that the gates of Hades do not prevail against Peter by a special privilege, but prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? What is said surely belongs to each and all of them, since all are ‘Peter’ and the ‘Rock,’ and the church of God has been built upon them all, and against none who are such do the gates of Hades prevail. Is it to Peter alone that the Lord gives the keys of the kingdom of Heaven, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this privilege, ‘I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,’ is common to the others, so also are all the preceding words addressed as it were to Peter
(Origen on Matthew XII, 10 as cited in eyendorff J. The Primacy of Peter: essays in ecclesiology and the early church St Vladimir’s Seminary Press, 1992, p. 61).
Canon 1, Fourth Lateran Council
"There is one Universal Church of the faithful, outside of which there is absolutely no salvation. In which there is the same priest and sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine; the bread being changed (transsubstantiatio) by divine power into the body, and the wine into the blood, so that to realize the mystery of unity we may receive of Him what He has received of us. And this sacrament no one can effect except the priest who has been duly ordained in accordance with the keys of the Church, which Jesus Christ Himself gave to the Apostles and their successors.”
So a Catholic ‘infallible’ ecumenical council declared that peter did not alone receive the keys of heaven but also the apostles and their successors.
”If, however, Jovinianus should obstinately contend that John was not a virgin, (whereas we have maintained that his virginity was the cause of the special love our Lord bore to him), let him explain, if he was not a virgin, why it was that he was loved more than the other Apostles. But you say, Matthew 16:18 the Church was founded upon Peter: although elsewhere the same is attributed to all the Apostles, and they all receive the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the strength of the Church depends upon them all alike, yet one among the twelve is chosen so that when a head has been appointed, there may be no occasion for schism. ”St. Jerome, Against Jovianus, Book I: 26
”St. Bruno of Segni :
"Here in fact this statement is said principally to Peter, and it ought to be understood as being said to the rest of the apostles. And not only to the apostles, but truly also to the bishops and priests. In fact, the keys and powers themselves have been given by the Lord to not only will free the Church, but also to open the heavens to others.
”if the keys are the powers of binding and loosing,did not the Lord give this privilege to all the apostles in Matthew 18:18? “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
One pope, venerated as a saint by Roman Catholics is Pope St. Gregory the Great (590-604), who famously opposed Patriarch John of Constantinople’s desire to add the term “Ecumenical” to his title, writing to the patriarch that
”Whoever calls himself the universal bishop, or desires this title, is, by his pride, the precursor of Antichrist, because he thus attempts to raise himself above the others. The error into which he falls springs from pride equal to that of Antichrist; for as that Wicked One wished to be regarded as exalted above other men, like a god, so likewise whoever would be called sole bishop exalteth himself above others.”
Here's St. Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome A.D. 590-604, writing to St. Eulogius of Alexandria on how the See of Peter subsists in three patriarchates (Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch): "Wherefore though there are many apostles, yet with regard to the principality itself the See of the Prince of the apostles alone has grown strong in authority, which in three places is the See of one. For he himself exalted the See in which he deigned even to rest and end the present life. He himself adorned the See to which he sent his disciple as evangelist. He himself established the See in which, though he was to leave it, he sat for seven years. Since then it is the See of one, and one See, over which by Divine authority three bishops now preside, whatever good I hear of you, this I impute to myself. If you believe anything good of me, impute this to your merits, since we are one in Him Who says, 'That they all may be one, as You, Father, art in me, and I in you that they also may be one in us' [John 17:21]."
Cyprian of Carthage:
“The Lord says to Peter: ‘I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church.’ . . . On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church?”
(The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
consider the Chieti 2016 agreement which can be found on the Vatican website:
“...Appeals to the bishop of Rome from the East expressed the communion of the Church, but the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.”-(2016 Chieti Agreement)”
“The Place of Rome in the Apostolic Church
Significantly, most Roman Catholic historians recognize that the Popes did not have universal jurisdiction during the first centuries of Christian history. Instead, they recognize that the Papacy, as it exists today, was the result of centuries of growth and evolution. For example, the Pope did not achieve complete authority over Roman Catholic doctrine until the declaration of papal infallibility at the First Vatican Council in 1870. One Roman Catholic historian wrote, “The primacy of the Church of Rome naturally did not appear all at once and in its full external development. It developed organically and as need required.” 308
As the bishop of the largest and most influential city in the world, the Bishop of Rome naturally occupied a position of great prestige. Most Christians looked to the Church of Rome for leadership from the very beginning of church history. Anyone with a cause would have had a stronger case with Roman support. For this reason, both heretics and Orthodox theologians tried to win the favor of the Bishop of Rome for their cause. In 343 or 344, the Council of Sardica, one of the local councils recognized by the Council in Trullo, granted deposed bishops the right to request that the Bishop of Rome appoint local bishops to hear their appeal. However, the canon did not give the Pope the authority to resolve the matter himself. 309
The Bishop of Rome as “First Among Equals” in the Apostolic Church
There was no question that the Pope held a primacy of honor as “first among equals,” during the first 1,000 years of Christian history. For example, St. Ignatius addresses the Church of Rome in very flowerily words, “worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of credit worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love…” 310 However, this honorary status did not give the Pope universal jurisdiction. In the same letter, St. Ignatius is also careful to limit the actual authority of the Bishop of Rome to “the region of the Romans.” 311 During his disagreement with Pope St. Stephen over Baptism, St. Cyprian specifically rejected the idea that Rome had authority over the other bishops. He wrote, “Certainly the rest of the apostles were exactly what Peter was; they were endowed with an equal share of office and power…. The episcopate is a single whole, in which each bishop’s share gives him a right to, and a responsibility for the whole.” 312
Although Roman Bishops began to claim authority over other bishops fairly early, it took centuries before they were strong enough to enforce these claims. Because the early Church used the administrative divisions already used by the Roman Empire, the Bishop of Rome only exercised jurisdiction over the ten provinces governed by the prefect of Rome during the first five centuries of Church history. For example, at the close of the first century, St. Clement, the Bishop of Rome, had the authority to advise the Church of Corinth in his Epistle to the Church in Corinth because the city was one of those ruled directly by Rome. For this reason, the Corinthian Church was under the authority of the Bishop of the imperial city. Outside of the areas ruled directly from Rome, the Western Church followed the same practice of the East, where local metropolitans and synods administered the Church. For example, Milan operated as an independent or autocephalous Church under the leadership of its own bishop rather than that of the Bishop of Rome. 313 The Bishop of Rome was only able to extend his authority over the other bishops of the West after centuries of effort. Rome was never able to persuade the Eastern Bishops to accept papal authority. Unfortunately, the Eastern bishops were not fully aware of the growing Roman claims until it was too late to avoid conflict with Rome. 314 Thus, Rome did not exercise universal jurisdiction during the era of the Ecumenical Councils. Nor was Rome above the authority of a general council as later Popes would claim. Instead, the Bishops of Rome were subject to the decisions of ecumenical councils just like any other bishop. For example, the Sixth Ecumenical Council, Constantinople III, did not hesitate to claim authority over the Pope when it condemned Pope Honorius I in 680.
The Canons of the Ecumenical Councils and Papal Authority
It is not possible to reconcile the papal claims to universal jurisdiction with the canons of the Ecumenical Councils. In addition to its doctrinal decisions, the Councils adopted rules called canons to regulate the life of the Church. Because the Church used the administrative divisions of the Roman Empire, the bishops of the provincial capitals had presided over meetings or synods of the bishops of the smaller towns in the province since the beginning of Church history. The bishops who lived in the provincial capital or metropolis of the region were eventually called Metropolitans. The First Council of Nicea reaffirmed this practice and recognized the authority of provincial synods to elect the bishops of the dioceses in their provinces. The council also decreed that the local synods of the bishops should meet in each province at least twice a year, once before Lent and once in the fall. In 528, the Emperor Justinian ruled that the metropolitan and bishops of a province would elect bishops from a list of three candidates nominated by the clergy and faithful of the diocese. 315 Canon thirty five of the Apostolic Canons, a set of ancient canons given ecumenical authority by the Council in Trullo in 692, considered by Orthodox a continuation of the Fifth and Sixth Ecumenical Councils, summarizes the Eastern model for the proper administration of the Church.
The bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent; but each may do those things only which concern his own parish and the country places which belong to it. But neither let him (who is the first) do anything without the consent of all; for so there will be unanimity and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit. 316
The Development of the Five Patriarchates
From the division of the Church into local provincial Churches, the system of five Patriarchs developed. The First Council of Nicea reaffirmed the authority of the Metropolitan of Alexandria over the Churches in Egypt and North Africa, Antioch over the Churches in the Middle East, and Rome over the Churches in those areas ruled directly by Rome. 317 In time, the Metropolitans of Rome, Alexandria, and Antioch began to be called Patriarchs from the Greek word for Father. The Bishops of Rome and Alexandria also adopted the title Pope, also from the word for Father.
Eventually, the Second Ecumenical Council approved a canon that would have wide-ranging consequences. The Second Canon of that council decreed that “The Bishop of Constantinople, however, shall have the prerogative of honor after the Bishop of Rome; because Constantinople is the New Rome.” 318 In 330, Emperor Constantine moved the capital of the Roman Empire to Byzantium, an ancient Greek fishing village. Byzantium, which he renamed Constantinople, became a Christian alternative to pagan Rome. 319 Finally, the Fourth Ecumenical Council, The Council of Chalcedon in 451, which set the standard for orthodox Christology, granted patriarchial dignity to Jerusalem. 320 This completed the formation of the Pentarchy or division of the Church into five self-governing local provincial Churches: Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem. The Orthodox Church has continued to this day to be a federation of locally governed Churches.
The Council of Chalcedon made another very important decision concerning the administration of the Church. In 451, the Twenty Eighth Canon of the Council of Chalcedon recognized the equality of the Bishop of Constantinople with the Bishop of Rome. Significantly, the canon did not base the Roman primacy of honor on the belief that St. Peter was the traditional founder of the Roman Church. Instead, the fathers of the council considered the Bishop of Rome senior among the world’s bishops because he was bishop of the old capital of the empire. Since Constantinople had taken the place of the old Rome and was the new capital of the Empire, the fathers of the council decreed that the Bishop of Constantinople should have equal status with the Bishop of Rome. 321
Pope St. Leo View of Primacy
Pope St. Leo objected strongly to Canon 28 of the Council of Chalcedon. His arguments are very interesting in the light of the claims of his successors. He did not object to the canon because of a theory of Papal or Petrine supremacy. Instead, he rejected the canon because it set aside the ranking of Churches established by the First Ecumenical Council, the First Council of Nicea. 322 Specifically, the Bishop of Rome rejected this canon because the council elevated Constantinople at the expense of Alexandria and Antioch which the Council of Nicea had ranked second and third in status. He wrote, “The rights of provincial primates may not be overthrown nor metropolitan bishops be defrauded of privileges based on “antiquity.” 323...
I am concerned for Christian unity, but how do you stay your local Anglican church (which I was baptised and brought up in) when a liberal pro-LGBT woman is appointed as vicar?
You don’t.
You raise a valid issue, which many Christians are trying to grapple with. One can try to remain w/ the congregation or parish to be a light in the darkness or one can decide to move on. See the following articles…
www.equip.org/articles/evangelicals-in-the-mainstream/
www.equip.org/article/how-to-revive-a-dead-church/
Jesus Christ is the bridegroom and the Church is the bride of Christ (Rev. 21:1-27; Eph. 5:22-33). Christians are brothers and sisters in God’s house (Matt. 12:46-50). We are a family, and like all families, we have our struggles, but we need to strive for unity in a way like no other family. Jesus prayed for the Church “that they may all be one” (John 17:21). All Christians belong to the Church, and the members of the Church are to do what is necessary to stick together in good times, bad times, and everything else between.
What if worst comes to worst?
Although it is sometimes tempting to remain at a problematic church to try to bring reform, unless someone is an elder or pastor who has authority and support at a church, this is extremely difficult. And, when lay people sometimes remain at a problematic church and try to bring reform through dialogs with congregants, this sometimes breeds misunderstanding, and the reformer may be perceived as the “enemy” of the church. Even apart from the possibility that remaining at a problematic church can be counterproductive, consider also that the reformer will not receive the type of spiritual nourishment that he or she needs. When problematic teachings are conveyed through a church, we recommend meeting with the leadership of the church to discuss such matters, and if there is not repentance, we suggest leaving that church. It is still helpful to speak with acquaintances, friends, and family who continue to attend that church about problematic doctrines, but this is best done in private conversation rather than on a church’s grounds.
@@BibleAnswerMan I was part of the leadership team - Lay Reader/Preacher - but it was twice suggested to me by the new female vicar that I leave because of my views. My wife and I have left, but it feels a bit like a bereavement.
Whether Catholic or Orthodox welcome to the Church!
Is the 4th commandment important?
The orthodox church kept it that the west.♡♡♡