Yamaha R9 , the issues it will have on the racetrack

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  • Опубликовано: 29 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 85

  • @771racing
    @771racing Месяц назад +11

    So... a few hot takes from a fellow road racer:
    On the 'lack of revs' issue, it's a non-issue. At the end of the day, the R9 has a wider usable rev range where it makes solid power compared to the R6 that is either on the boil or falling on it's face. Yup, the overall final gear ratio from crank to wheel will be taller to make the two go the same speed at peak RPM, but that basically means nothing. The R9 with it's wider spread can get away with a wider ratio gearbox, allowing for more flexibility on track compared to the R6 that can only allow a limited RPM swing between gears or it falls out of it's power range. I say this having raced an R6, an FZR400, and the literal polar opposite in terms of RPMs, a 1200cc Buell. 7k RPM and it's done, but once you adapt to it sounding like a motard that's being lugged off idle everywhere... it just does it's thing. RPMs are a way to extract more power from a given motor, but as you noted there is a limit to how far you can go based on the fundamental physics of the motor, the actual numbers for achievable RPMs don't really matter though, it's how that power is spread across them that will determine how obnoxiously tight or not of a gearbox you'll need to keep the bike on the boil at all times.
    On classing, I actually looked at WMRRA's rulebook as this discussion came up in our local org, WMRRA is kinda the oddball of US clubs with it's lack of a Heavyweight class between Middleweight (600s) and Unlimited (liter bikes) so yeah, in that series the R9 is going to be outgunned with no easy fix. Most clubs there is Heavyweight where the old school 750s slot into and I think the R9 will do well. Thats where my hooligan MT-09 will slot into with my local series.
    ASRA has gone the route of adopting the WSS NextGen SS ruleset, ish, as part of their Middleweight Superbike class. So with ASRA, once the R9 is homologated and the required ECU and harness are available the R9 will be going up against classic R6 machines and the rest of the NGSS field. The problem I have with this at the club level is that balancing isn't a one pass and done thing, it's constantly changing, and the balancing target they're aiming for is at a level above most club racing middleweight setups, so I don't think these machines in full NGSS setup will mix fairly with club level 600s, it'll be a bit of seal clubbing. And that's ignoring the fun of the club now having to police the NGSS machines to make sure they're actually clamped down like they're supposed to be.
    Now, while you wait for the R9 to get homologated, or if you're going to skip a full NGSS build, you can toss your superstock / supersport build R9 into ASRA's heavyweight class as is and have fun hanging with the 750s, no worries.

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +1

      Thanks for the detailed reply!

    • @paulhope3401
      @paulhope3401 Месяц назад +2

      @771racing Sure, It will be 'ok', and it won't hurt it too bad on tighter tracks, but it's still not optimal for more open
      track use.
      The R9 cams are not reported to have a higher lift than the other CP3's, such as in my 23 MT09 SP. Have a look at the CP3's dyno power curve, even after tuning, it actually tails off before you reach the rev limiter... and you end up short shifting to keep it in its power band range... and that is a total waste of potential power. The R9 should really have had a higher lift cam to move the power band higher up in the rev range.. I get that Euro5 is likely the reason why they tuned it more for torque instead of peak power but that is not what you want on the circuit if you are a competent racer who is serious about the laptime. I expect to see the tuners bringing out higher lift cams for this... to make it what it really should have been if Euro5 hadn't got in the way.
      I've dragged against a few similar (to my MT09 SP) powered 600's and thanks to the higher torque, I'll be quicker to aprox 100mph after which they start gaining on me and go back past at aprox 120mph.... and if the road is open enough, they will soon disappear off into the distance.
      Yes, my mt09 is stock and so is limited to aprox 137mph, if unrestricted and tuned could pull aprox 155mph or so.. and be able to play with the 600's at the top end once it got there... but with an additional 290cc's the 600's really should not even be in the same discussion... nor should the GSXR750 FWIW.

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +3

      I have zero doubts even without raising the rev ceiling (super sport spec) it will come off a corner harder than a 600 because if it’s torque advantage.
      My biggest concern is that in any club series it won’t be able to race against 600’s without rule revisions.
      Against bigger bikes with higher rev limits it’s not going to have that torque advantage so the lower rev limit will
      Hurt it
      I’ve taken a fair amount of heat for this video but most of the heat has been because people think I’m saying it won’t beat the out going r6. I actually say the opposite in the video but I get people don’t listen to every word.
      Series have to keep up with rule changes to match the current bike market we will just have to see how long it takes to filter down to the club level that most of us are racing in.

    • @771racing
      @771racing Месяц назад

      @@vcyclenut I'm not convinced that the rules have to be altered for each bike that comes out to make them competitive. The old method of layout and displacement limits defining tiers has worked well for quite a long time. Yeah, not every bike at a given tier is competitive, heck look at what you see at the club level these days in MW, it's almost all R6's for a reason, they're the best at that tier. Should I be expecting the rules to change 'cause I bought a Seca II and it's not a competitive middleweight? Or a Bandit 600, or a CB650R to use a modern example?
      The R9 may not prove out to be a good club bike as a result... I don't think Yamaha cares. It'll do decent at the national and world level because it'll be balanced in, and the TD junkies that are slowly outnumbering the racers don't care about class balance so they'll enjoy it. The vast majority sold in the meantime will never see a track so... do we NEED to go through hysterics coming up with per bike balancing rules and the pain that can bring for enforcement at the club level?

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      @@771racing hysterics!? lol come on
      A racing series that doesn’t give up to date bikes a competitive class to compete in will become a vintage racing club

  • @caboosez250
    @caboosez250 Месяц назад +3

    I just want it for track days, and with no class to fit in on a TD I think it will be super fun.

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +4

      ohh its going to be a great track day bike and I am going to race it , probably in formula 40 , because im old, lol
      I just wish it fit better in a class

  • @ApexRadius
    @ApexRadius Месяц назад +3

    Honestly, and admittedly without knowing those sanctioning bodies' rules well, the ultimate answer is that those folks will need to revise their rulebooks because they won't fit the current motorcycle market. As you mentioned, it's a non-issue in the major world/national pro racing series because of things like stock ECUs and performance balancing rules. It sounds to me like these smaller series are maybe still a little too biased towards the time when most sportbikes were inline-4s of 600cc and 1000cc of displacement with the odd twin here and there. They may have good reasons for that but as newer bikes come in, they are going to be more issues.
    Forcing even a race-prepped R9 to race against superbikes isn't a good result. So it sounds like you'll see a field of mostly newer but old-style and aging inline-4s in the supersport-equivalent classes. I guess that's fine for now, but I wonder how sustainable it is. I think we're going to be seeing fewer inline-4s in the future.

  • @seanx9
    @seanx9 Месяц назад +6

    my guess is they are preparing for the next regulations change in MotoGP in 2027 from 1000cc to 850cc - they probably gonna come out with something like R9M or something with 850cc but higher rev limit and more hp.

    • @ApexRadius
      @ApexRadius Месяц назад +1

      Yamaha's next MotoGP bike has been all but confirmed as a V4. MotoGP isn't production based so that bike is likely to have nothing to do with with the R9. The rumors are that the new bike will see race action as soon as sometime next season. When the new 850cc rules come into effect, it will still be a V4. Of course, that is assuming that Yamaha hasn't pulled the head fake of the century, fooled everyone, and they're actually going to race a triple like the old Aprilia RS Cube. But I doubt it.
      The real interesting question is what eventually happens to the R1? Will that eventually be replaced with another new liter-bike? How long will they stick with the R1 in WSB and all the national production-based series?

  • @KHIJAPAN
    @KHIJAPAN Месяц назад +2

    I totally agree with you. This is the case with R1 today. They have 1000 to 1500 less revs than the ducatis and bmw. But this is the case for the rules as they are today. FIM penitent when asked if with the new rules MotoGP bikes will have less power than the WSBK, he said we are going to change the rules to be closer to BSB championship than what it is today. We like to be more close to street bikes than to what they are today. Guess who wone BSB championship this year? Yamaha R1 of course.
    I think Yamaha and Honda had enough with ducati cheating in every championship they are involved, either MotoGP or WSBK.
    I don't think Ducati and Aprilia, or MV meet the emission regulations with that excessive and unusable power. But because they are made in Europe...you know

  • @JetSkiJockey
    @JetSkiJockey Месяц назад

    Glad you made this video. You flashed my MT09. I felt it was great ! You done fantastic job on it. I put the quick shifter on it. Modded the air box and put Leo Vince full exhaust on. I absolutely loved it for the road. What I noticed was the top end. 140 seemed to be the limit. If that is the way the R9 is gonna be I wouldn’t choose it for track day. Novice group stuff yeah but that’s it. I’ve looked at street triple dukes and I think I’ll just stick with inline 4. Starting on R1 didn’t help any I guess. Im currently looking and thinking Kawasaki zx6r or Suzuki Gsxr 750. Please Suzuki put a bi directional quick shifter on !

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +1

      Awesome!
      Glad you’re happy with my work!
      The r9 will have a much higher top speed because of much better aerodynamics

    • @771racing
      @771racing Месяц назад

      Take a look at this year's Super Hooligan results, the MT-09, with all the aerodynamic faults working against it was getting up to 150mph at Mid-Ohio with just bolt-ons, vs full factory HD Pan Americas and Indian FTRs peaking at 154mph. For comparison, a full NGSS Ducati V2, same weekend and track, 154mph. These machines have potential, if you like the naked fighter style, stick it out.

    • @SirMountainpass
      @SirMountainpass Месяц назад

      My (heavily) optimized, super-light (181,5 kgs wet) 2020 SP with a semi-tall windshield in combo with custom-made racing leathers and an aerodynamic helmet (Pista RR) can be revved to the limiter at 11´500 rpm in 5th where it hits 154 mph on the race track’s long pit straight and 163 mph in 6th on the German Autobahn (on a windstill day), GPS -8%.

  • @MrBCRC
    @MrBCRC Месяц назад +1

    This bike's true place is where it was 20 years ago. In with the 4cyl 750's and 1000cc v-twins... It's comparison should be the gsxr750 and the panagale v2 against which it falls way short of where it should be. It's quite frankly embarrassing for the R9. I own and like my mt09sp and had high hopes for the r9 but for it's specs I may as well buy the XSR900 GP because at least it's looks will match it's performance.

  • @mytmousemalibu
    @mytmousemalibu Месяц назад +1

    I love this bike, might have to get one and I already have an MT-09SP. I was hoping for a revised CP3 with more power/revs/etc. Also hoping they optimized the gearing, not just with sprockets to get as much from the CP3 as possible. I had pondered back when it was just a rumor, where does it fit in racing since the R6 and now R1 are fading with the R9 supposed to be filling the gap. It doesn't really have a dedicated class of racing it fits into. Its too big or too small. I feel like they took the same path as the R7, its not meant as a class track bike, its all for the streets and the occasional track day. I hope someday to see a revised big power triple from Yamaha or perhaps a V4?

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +1

      Yamaha has shown repeatedly they very much care about racing, hell they carried the Moto America series as the only manufacturer for a few years and are one of only 2 Japanese manufacturers left in Moto GP
      this is their new super sport platform, it just doesn't have a class it fits into if you don't have spec ecu's
      I think the v4 is coming as their top tier sport bike. People have shown they will pay big money for motorcycles. Ducati is kicking ass financially with their bikes. Yamaha is working on a V4 for MotoGP , we will see it trickle down.

    • @mytmousemalibu
      @mytmousemalibu Месяц назад +1

      @@vcyclenut Ya, I concour! As a big fan of triples, I hope they keep pushing it. I would love to see Yamaha bring something to the table to compete with the Speed triple 1200 that is 180hp+ and with everyone pulling back from inline 4's for emissions, maybe that's a possibility? But if they are developing a V4 for GP that might trickle down to street bikes, development for that probably eliminates the chance of a big triple. I wouldn't be mad if that meant an MT-10 that competes with the Streetfighter V4S!

    • @foodmaniac9339
      @foodmaniac9339 Месяц назад

      ​@@vcyclenutyamaha sells more bikes of a single model than ducati that sells all of its bikes together.

    • @joshuasmith5538
      @joshuasmith5538 Месяц назад

      with the next gen supersport rules in motoamerica and wsbk, i think it’s only a matter of time until regional club series’ start to incorporate some kind of BOP or “next gen supersport” rules into their classes. probably not as cost prohibitive as a spec ecu but something that keeps the newer higher displacement supersport bikes out of both traditional 600 and 1000 bike territory. depends though, i’m sure locally there are a lot more r6’s, gsxr 600’s and zx6rs running around than in pro race series where you kind of have to evolve to a new bike to stay competitive unless you have a bad ass rider and years of team data like we’ve seen with mathew scholtz on the strack team yamaha r6 this year.

    • @everettbranscom6536
      @everettbranscom6536 Месяц назад

      Its already been homologated for Moto America and World Superbike, so it has a race class. Smaller race organization's will follow, they always do.

  • @archiewilson4943
    @archiewilson4943 Месяц назад

    Won't a low redline be more dangerous on the side of the tire because of the torque curve. Plus you will be shifting a lot more.

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      You won’t be shifting any more if anything less because you have a wide range of usable torque
      The side of the tire will all be on how the power is delivered
      Plenty of much higher power /torque bikes are fine on the side of the tire

  • @everettbranscom6536
    @everettbranscom6536 Месяц назад

    The extra 25 foot pounds of TQ over a 600 should equal the playing shouldn't it ? Like the old 748 Ducati vs the 600s, lower rpm but higher TQ and was very competitive. The old 748 even won the first world super sport series

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      Yes, but in most series the rules will not let in a class against 600’s

  • @jdean1851
    @jdean1851 Месяц назад +2

    ITS A EURO SMOG EMISSION MACHINE" REGARDLESS OF THE HYPE- CHOP OFF A CYLINDER SAVE 1 CYL OF EMISSIONS"-IMHO

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      IDK , usually smaller cylinders are more efficient

    • @exothermal.sprocket
      @exothermal.sprocket Месяц назад +1

      Less time for the flame propagation from the spark plug to the cylinder walls with smaller bore. What is usually more efficient is the longer stroke as it gives more time to utilize the combustion for torque. Which is why short stroke high RPM engines are only doing their thing at high RPM. They spend very little time at optimal connecting rod-to-crank-pin angles where max twist can be generated from combustion.

  • @Kwicksand
    @Kwicksand Месяц назад +1

    That swingarm looks suspect!

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      Yes , doesn’t look any other swingarm out there on a race bike

  • @bloodspartan300
    @bloodspartan300 Месяц назад

    You should do a video on the terrible ktm 990 coming out... it has a stroke of 70.4mm 😂

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      I’m sure like the r9 it will be faster than a 600 but like the r9 that won’t be what it races against in any non spec ecu series.

  • @damianogiusti9238
    @damianogiusti9238 Месяц назад +1

    i don't see it as a big problem. ducati won a lot of championships with 2 cylinder engines revving at much les rpm than their rivals

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      From what I have read they were pushing them so hard the maintenance schedule was stupid and why they went to a v4 that now revs just as high as the i4’s

    • @exothermal.sprocket
      @exothermal.sprocket Месяц назад

      The V4R is now rated for 240 horsepower at 16,500 rpm. The over-square nature of the bore and stroke is wild.

  • @davetysdal5442
    @davetysdal5442 Месяц назад +1

    I'll take your Suzuki 8S!

  • @henryw31
    @henryw31 Месяц назад

    Ill take 20 more torque and 5k less rpm any day. That 20 more torque will be more helpful in corner exits than anything

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      Currently it only matches in the rules against 600’s at the world and national level

  • @mattsteakk
    @mattsteakk Месяц назад

    The v2 doesn’t rev very high either and it’s winning

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад

      That’s MA. not smaller series

    • @exothermal.sprocket
      @exothermal.sprocket Месяц назад

      955cc vtwin vs other 599 i-4 bikes? The ECU has to be very limited.

    • @mattsteakk
      @mattsteakk Месяц назад

      @@exothermal.sprocket it is limited to be equal to a supersport r6

  • @churchofbrap876
    @churchofbrap876 Месяц назад +3

    Some valid points vcyclenut! Yamaha is obviously making use of the CP3 platform with all these new variants, so i didn't expect a hardcore race bike. But i think this will work well for the track day guys.
    As for all the negative comments about it in review videos, with my tin foil hat on, I'm convinced that competitors are anonymously shit talking new bikes in the comments. Every new bike video review that comes out, I'm amazed how quickly the comments get taken over by negative remarks. I'm convinced its troll farms!

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +2

      thanks!
      that isn't that tinfoilhaty, lol

    • @churchofbrap876
      @churchofbrap876 Месяц назад

      @@vcyclenut on a side note, any news on mapping for the Hyper 698??

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +1

      @@churchofbrap876 nope. You know I’ll be screaming from the rooftops when I can

  • @TalonTSI95
    @TalonTSI95 Месяц назад

    Just add additional winglets and remove all but 4 teeth from the rear sprocket.... problem solved 🤌

  • @lopezdad30
    @lopezdad30 Месяц назад +7

    For all you that went a Yamaha track weapon.....just buy an R6, new or used....the choice is yours.

    • @vcyclenut
      @vcyclenut  Месяц назад +2

      Isn’t that a problem for the new bike if you’re saying buy the old bike ?

    • @lopezdad30
      @lopezdad30 Месяц назад +2

      @@vcyclenut not necessarily old because yamaha still makes the R6 as a track only model.

    • @foodmaniac9339
      @foodmaniac9339 Месяц назад +2

      ​@@vcyclenutdon't worry. Yamaha knows much better what they are doing than you do. The R9 will be a sales hit. The new R1 is in development already, so maybe 2027 the return of R1

    • @JoeStanek-vu7rl
      @JoeStanek-vu7rl Месяц назад +3

      ​@@foodmaniac9339if a certain party gets elected this November all motorcycles will be electric by 2035, so no new R1.

    • @everettbranscom6536
      @everettbranscom6536 Месяц назад +1

      @@JoeStanek-vu7rl We already have the new R1. New for 2025

  • @bill64gr
    @bill64gr Месяц назад +4

    For me this bike is wrong by Yamaha.I own 21 MT.This engine is road engine...

    • @SteveySwidz
      @SteveySwidz Месяц назад

      I feel the same way. Been out since 2014 with the FZ09 and 10/11 years later they decide to stick it into a track bike. However, there doesn't seem to even be a good place for it. Since this is considered the R6/i4 replacement.... Yamaha should have been innovators and lead the way with a v4. Would have been a perfect steppingstone for a v4R1M

    • @paulhope3401
      @paulhope3401 Месяц назад

      Yes. I have a MT09 SP and It is a fantastic engine for the street... butI I totally agree, its just not a proper race engine.
      Even a detuned for Euro 5 revised R1 engine would be a far far better option than this. R models deserve better... same goes for the R7.

    • @cycleholicsanonymous
      @cycleholicsanonymous Месяц назад

      I don't get the allure? It seems like a step backwards to me for a road bike. Put the stiffer frame along with the forks on the MT09SP.

    • @biscuit3755
      @biscuit3755 Месяц назад

      Agreed

    • @exothermal.sprocket
      @exothermal.sprocket Месяц назад

      None of you understand the R7 either, I'm sure.