The problem with using Luna instead of Starlight in Shadow play is that if Luna had been involved, Celestia would have most probably been involved as well, and it would have felt even more convoluted had both of them gone with the risky plan to rescue the Pillars from limbo, and also allowing Starswirl to go with his plan to banish Stygian until the last minute. They also have more authority than Starlight, and it would make Starswirl difficult to just simply ignore their opinion like with Starlight.
How about the fact on how they react to Starswirl's attitude of "Once a villain, always a villain", imagine how hurt Luna would be due to her dark past. Its seriously a wasted opportunity there.
I think the best explanation I can think of is the reason why Starlight instead of Luna played a big role in these episodes is because Luna was reformed by the healing spell from the "Elements of Harmonies" magic, where as Starlight she was reformed the most likely real life way. As in words of righteous influence. So maybe them talking to Stygian was probably the best way to get Stygian to fight the "darkness" that was manipulating him.
While I think it would have been a superior story had Luna been used, I think the whole arc was originally designed around giving Starlight her time in the sun, and thus was built originally around her, thus Luna hadn't come into the equation. TBH, Luna seems a sort of 'off limits' topic for the writers most of the time, tho I am uncertain why. It's almost as if the writers are either afraid to use her, or feel that her story is 'over'.
Apparently, they wanted to give Luna an episode in season 1, but were told by the higher-ups not to because they felt she would be too scary a character...stupid, I know. Honestly, I think the writers just don't know how to handle dark and complex characters. If Michael Reeves, Paul Dini, or even whoever wrote the movie wrote "Magic Sheep," it would have been much better.
Luna taking on Stygian as her student like how Celestia took on Twilight would've been a nice touch That... _sorta_ happens in the Nightmare Knight comics
@Frost E Bear Ok, no need to be rude. Second, I'm not saying that don't like the idea of Luna having a role in the episode, i just much prefer the way things played in in the actual finale.
Not exactly. Luna was dealing with her guilt but what about the fact she can show that "Once a villain is NOT always a villain"? Like her dark past lets her relate to the others.
It would have been nice for Luna to feature in the finale. But, I'm personally happy with what we got. Besides, Luna's role in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" and "A Royal Problem" were sufficient for me.
I'm with Joshscorcher on "Magic Sheep." Whoever wrote that episode didn't know what they were doing. "A Royal Problem" was a great episode, but I still think we need one more good Luna episode to make up for "Magic Sheep."
@@realJoeMavro I feel like after the Tantabus episode, they completely dropped touching on the issues Luna has within and Nightmare Moon. Like it abruptly ended. Some fans said on how Luna's guilt was fixed just like that wasn't really realistic. Like Luna needs therapy there.
Somebody Sign a Petition For Another Episode Where Luna is The Main Protagonist Where She Battles Another Evil With The Mane 6 With a Touching Ending Where Celestia is Proud of Her And They All Hug That’s What I’m Waiting For! SOMEONE PLEASE DO IT!!!!!!!
Starswirl wasn't her possible mentor, he was outright stated to be multiple times, including in both the episodes you've been talking about. Also, you are right, Luna would have been a better choice than Starlight.
Given my pet theory that Stygian's Pony of Shadows was only one manifestation of a larger malevolent force you could have tendrils of shadow reaching out to Luna and have shifting glimpses of Nightmare Moon trying to bring out the whole thing once again.
The mentor-student-chain wouldn't work as well if it wasn't Starlight. Also, Luna might not yet have the confidence to be so bold as to confront her teacher about it. She pretty much agreed as seen in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep. Luna wouldn't dare speak up. She's been out of the loop for a 1000 years too... Starlight, though: she has NO trouble about challenging authority. She already did that with Twilight about befriending Trixie. Plus she doesn't really see Starswirl as an authority figure, just one old pony with out-of-date (by 1000 years) ideas she disagrees with. Also, even at her craziest, if she was in charge, she would *always* consider that redemption is possible, even likely. Not redeeming someone is what she would never think of.
There's an easy way to fix this: just have Stygian be pure bucking evil. MLP has more than enough redeemed villains already, so why not let bad guys just be bad guys again? That way, Luna can prove herself to her mentor, be a hero to Equestria and get some closure on her own dark past.
Its actually a bad thing Luna is unable to speak up to Starswirl like that and its just left like that. She would be hurt by the whole "Once a villain, always a villain" attitude, having Luna overcome her issue and speak up against Starswirl would have her become stronger.
You know what really grinds my gears, the way the show staff build up hype about the pillars of equestria and then just threw them by the wayside in favor of the school thing
Forgive the late comment doc but after getting and reading my copy of Knightmare Nights issue 4 I wanted to inform that the last couple of pages kinda play with this idea. Obviously no where near to the depth you suggested but it made me think back to this as I was reading it.
I wish Luna had a bigger part in the special as well. Maybe not replace StarLight, but be included in the story more. I really wanted, and still want, Luna to interact to Stygian. In the comics and other things, which I know aren't super cannon, Luna says it was a shadow that she befriended and it made her Nightmare Moon, that's like the same thing as Stygian. I hope we can see more of the Pillers and have them interact with the princesses, and way more back story and explanations for everything!!
Literally a little while after I watched that finale, I thought to myself, "Wait, this Pony of Shadows is basically Nightmare Moon 2.0 XP" I didn't have any issues with that, but what a weird similarity.
I think Shadow Play is just fine as is. As interesting as it would be to give Luna some more focus, I'm not so sure having another time with Luna worrying over Nightmare Moon not long after "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" would have just felt well past it's limit. A lot of people were tired of it when even that episode came out so having it played up again in Shadow Play I think wouldn't have been all that well received. We need more of Luna AWAY from Nightmare Moon, show her more like they did in A Royal Problem where we see her in her role as a princess or a growing mentor with the CMC, not the remorseful villain.
If Luna had played a role in this episode, she wouldn´t have been a remorseful former villain. She would know that she is a good pony now, but her former mentor, Star Swirl, didn´t believe in reformation. Her conflict for this episode wouldn´t have been whether or not she´s good, but whether or not Star Swirl believes she is. Like, imagine Star Swirl finding out about Luna´s past as Nightmare Moon and being all like "Once a villain, always a villain. There are enough spells to alter the caster´s form and voice, so how do we know you´re not just Nightmare Moon pretending to be Luna?"
@@Kartoffelkamm That's all fine and dandy, but it would still feel like re-tredding old ground. I just don't care about Nightmare Moon anymore, I want it gone, moved past it already. I don't want Luna to be talking about Nightmare Moon anymore. I want to know more about Luna besides Nightmare Moon and how this telling of Shadow Play would go down, it's just not something interesting enough to want to see.
@@Kartoffelkamm I think the power dynamics are too messed up if Luna is included. And I don't mean magical power. The rest of the cast defer to Luna. As Starlight would say in Horse Play, she's a "Princess princess". She's a character the others listen to and look up to. The conflict of shadow Play is contingent on Starswirl steamrolling everyone. The only person who matches his authority is Twilight, but she's too starstruck to countermand him. Starlight is, well, lesser. She's beneath Twilight. Twi cares for her of course, but she's not as high on the totem pole as Starswirl. He outranks her, so what he's suggesting overides her warnings. If Luna played Starlight's exact role, that of the ignored person offering caution. I don't quite buy that no one would listen to her.
@@khfanboy666 Yeah, but who said Luna had to play Starlight´s exact role? Maybe she could be as starstruck as Twilight at first, but start doubting Star Swirl´s methods.
@@DJSkywalker716 It will not retred old ground in a bad way there. Nightmare Moon is forever part of Luna, having it be completely gone/forgotten is like forgetting what made Luna in the first place. We were first introduced to her as a tragic villain due to she felt unloved and was consumed in pain and ended up becoming something terrifying, resulting in a great tragedy. Luna may have been past that, it would be fitting for her to be able to use her experience to help others through darkness too. Accepting NMM is part of her and show there is hope.
I think the story would have had more impact if it was Luna as the focal point, Starlight could have still played a supporting role, mind you. Think about it, Luna and Starlight could have had a moment where they compare notes on the situation while also sharing their stories about why it was they were villains to begin with. Granted, I think the Nightmare Moon transformation moment we saw in the Plunder Seed episode would have been more impactful if we got to see Nightmare Moon existing for more than a handful of minutes. The show builds Nightmare Moon up as this great villain that threatened Equestria with a neverending night but when the show finally shows the original Nightmare Moon incident we get maybe 20 in-universe minutes of Celestia and Nightmare Moon flying around the castle causing collateral damage. Now, if it was explained to the Audience, and Twilight, in a condensed form that this conflict lasted for what was effectively days or weeks, it would have made things a bit more impactful and better shown just how much of a threat Nightmare Moon really was. By the same extension, they should have shown how the Pony of Shadows was a major threat in the past, instead of Starswirl telling everyone why the Pony of Shadows needs to be stopped. It's a show, so show the viewers, don't just tell them like an inept lecturer, what you want them to see. Tirek was shown to be a threat, for a number of reasons, but they did drop the ball with Queen Chrysalis in showing how she was a threat, her first appearance perfectly illustrated how she could be a threat, but most of her appearances afterward just had her come off an inept twit instead of some scheming mastermind, and Cozy Glow was shown to be a much more subtle threat in how she operated and was the only clearly malicious pony antagonist the series had.
Starlight had a good place in this finale, but now you're mention it, I think it would be better if Luna had this role in the finale. It would've been nice to give Luna a bigger role in a finale. Sure, she had her finale where she was the villain. But Luna hasen't a chance to be in a real battle in the finale's or at least it wasn't focused on her.
I'll give you a answer Dr. Wolf, because the writers were looking for any and every excuse to have Starlight in an episode. Even if another character would have done the job just fine or even better.
I would also offer the consideration that both princesses could have been involved. Luna being able to better relate Stygian for having fallen herself, and Celestia towards Star Swirl the Bearded.
I think Luna should have been the one to reform the villain in this episode since she KNOWS what it's like to be left out and be gripped to darkness like sitchen she should have been the one to remind him that darkness is not part of him but another side of him that can hardly be taken control from
There is one major change that would have taken place in "Shadow Play" had Luna taken the place of Starlight- it never would have happened in the first place. After seeing that Starswirl was missing because he was acting as a living seal to hold back the Pony of Shadows, Luna's responsibility as princess would have demanded that she do everything in her power to make sure Twilight doesn't break that spell because Luna would know that would free the monster as well. She also probably would have viewed leaving the spell intact as a "last wish" from Starswirl so to speak. So yeah HIGHLY doubtful Luna would have ever allowed that spell to be broken if she had known that is what Twilight was trying to do.
That's a definite possibility. Or Luna could side with Twilight because she secretly feels lost without Starswirl. Celestia could be the one against bringing the pillars back, but it seems just as likely that she would think bringing Stygian back is a small price to pay for seeing her old mentor again. Heck, Celestia may not even consider Stygian a threat now that she has Luna, Twilight, and Starlight on her side. Celestia and Luna's characterizations often depend on whoever's writing them, so this scenario could go a dozen different ways.
Not unless we have Luna come in after Twilight screws up there. Or she arrives after she found out whats happening but was too late with what Twilight will do, just in time to see the Pony of Shadows popping up.
It’s a pretty good idea to put Luna on the two-part season 7 finale, but what risk can she oppose to stop the Pony of Shadows in order to save Stygian?
I'm going to be honest, I really wish it had been more like this than what we got. Or at least have the other characters do something more. It's one of the reasons why I stopped watching the show. Starlight figures out how to read the journal, is the only one to voice her worries about this, the only one strong enough to push back the Pony of Shadows, the only one to try and figure out how this happened, and so on. All the rest of the cast did was go on a brief fetch quest and...sit with the other pillars hanging out. It honestly felt like the writers were saying these characters (the mane 6) and like the pillars: has beens. I also got angry when Starswirl was talking about once a villain always a villain no chance of redemption and not one of the mane 6 spoke up. Twilight didn't mention Luna like when in Luna Eclipsed. Fluttershy didn't stand up for Discord. Or any of the other characters whose lives were changed because of these 6.It's because of this and people calling me retarded for thinking like this that caused me to stop watching the show. I still keep up with whats going on from time to time, that's all the effort I can give to the show.
Except based on what happened in "Do Princesses dream of magic sheep". Luna shouldn't need to be put in that role again since she moved past it. And didn't Luna & Celestia technically have their victory in "A royal problem" when they Defeated Daybreaker & Nightmare moon Saving Starlight?? Not to mention what is currently going on in the comics.
@@joshblackwell8632 As long as Starlight Glimmer isn't shoe horned in to be important then I'll be thankful. In all honesty she doesn't deserve the attention she gets.
@@leohino9211 She is Twilight's student it makes sense for her to giving attention especially since she has the same Main character status as Spike and she is important to Twilight's growth as a Teacher/Mentor she does deserve that attention. When exactly has she been "shoe-horned" in to you???
@@joshblackwell8632 Ever since her god awful reformation. Maybe she can fool everyone else but to me she's still that pathetic little pony who almost destroyed Equestria.
with the mlp staff making more episodes surrounded by the princess I do think that there leading up to something bigger with them. I also hope it has something to do with nightmare moons return, but against Luna's will.
Or like something restores Luna's (forcibly purged/purified) bitterness and re-awakens Nightmare Moon within her. And Luna now has to properly resolve the darkness within her.
One thing also you'd get if it was Luna, I'm curious how the Stygian Pony of Shadows is related to the Pony of Shadows from Castle Mane-ia, which was said to be a fragment of Nightmare Moon's power.
Personally, I prefer what we got. For one reason: Starlight's redemption arc was "completed" in this episode. She finally treats something magic-related with proper caution and wariness. She's confident enough to speak out against flipping STARSWIRL THE BEARDED, someone I think we all respected, without immediately backpeddling("A Royal Problem"). And most importantly, she employed the same mindset that Twilight did for her. Instead of instantly condemning Stygian based on Starswirl's ego-driven preaching, she absolutely refuses to believe that Stygian is unsavable, because she knows for a fact that she was unsavable once and Twi still managed to save her. I know there've been a few people that dislike this episode because Starlight was "Made to be the hero" but...that's not true. Starlight is the voice of reason, sure, but she wasn't the hero. If anything, she was trying to build up Twilight as the hero by constantly encouraging Twi, reminding her of her non-Starswirl-influenced morality, and stepping in to provide backup when confronting Stygian. Now had this episode been a 3-parter, then by all means, squeeze some Alircorn Princesses into the episode, but otherwise...
That's the thing though, Twilight isn't really the hero of Shadow Play either. She creates the conflict, then gets steamrolled by Starswirl only to fail talking down Stygian. Starlight pretty much finishes the job for her the whole time.
1) You got me on the Starswirl steamrolling her, but at least, the Mane Six did kinda speak up and try to get Twilight back in charge. 2) The most Starlight does in this episode as a whole is go to Twilight and say, "Yo, remember how you're supposed to be the Princess of Friendship, and therefore the most moral and righteous character in this show? Yeah, ignore Discount Gandalf's 'banish 'em all' attitude and be that center of morality!" IMO, this is a job that's geared more toward Star's character since she basically based her entire redemption on the concept of Twilight having Jesus-level morality. 3) The only reason Twi failed to talk down Stygian was because of the Pony of Shadow's influence(Which is also why Star had to speak up in the first place, saying, "Hey! You! Yeah, you! This girl's legit!"). Had it not been for that thing, Stygian would most certainly have backed down. 4) Out of curiosity, who do you personally think IS the real hero of "Shadow Play" if it's not Twilight? It's not Starswirl as he's the jerk who's semi-responsible for this whole mess to begin with. It's not Starlight since she didn't really do anything other than serve as support for Twilight. It certainly isn't the Princesses. And it's not the Pillars or the Remane Five, as none of them really know what's going on, they're just there for the ride and to stop the bad guy. Yet every last one of them contributed in some fashion, so wouldn't that mean, every character is the hero of the episode?
If Twilight saved Starlight, that makes her "savable" by definition. I agree with everything else, but only because the writer of this episode clearly wanted yet another redeemed villain that we'll probably never see again. I think it would have been more exciting if Stygian were evil to the core. If he were, then Luna would have been the perfect foil to him. She could try everything in her power to get through to him, but he could simply be too set in his ways to listen. That would make for a very compelling and heart-breakingly real lesson.
@@matthewcrombie3630 Starlight basically picks up the slack every time Twi fails. Can't withstand the Pony of Shadow's death beam? I'll take care of that for you. Intimidated by Starswirl? I'll keep suggesting that we talk Dark and Gruesome down, then give you are tearful stunner when you still won't take a hint. Couldn't talk Stygian out of not-Venom? I'll jump in and finish the job for you. I'd say she's the hero, if only because she was the one doing everything. TBH though, that's a running theme with Starlight: handing the rest of the main cast the idiot stick so that she can come in and fix things for them. Why develop your characters further when you can just use her to get the point across?
JoeMavro I myself enjoy the running theme of "Everyone can be saved" that MLP conveys, so I'm fine with Stygian getting reformed. Though it would have been interesting if the Pony of Shadows managed to successfully pull him into Limbo. We would have gotten a rescue mission plot for the S8 premiere instead of Chancellor Racist. But hey! At least the Pony of Shadows itself is still evil, even if it's trapped in Limbo. Plus, you never know who might try rescuing that thing for their own purposes. *Looks at Cozy Glow*
i can see this kind of idea making the story a bit stronger and more memorable. maybe even throw in celestia near the end to help her mentor as well. ehhh. oh well. maybe it's fuel for fanfics. you never know. i just hope with season 9 as the last season they gotta give cadence more charater development. cause you can't quite end the series without all questions being answered. even if i know there will be a lot of questions after the series finale. i trust the staff to end it on a high note.
Well looking at the IDW Comics(be they Canon or Not), when you use the ideal that Nightmare Moon was actually a Separate Entity that Possessed Luna turning her into NMM(like the Venom Symbiote), and the fact that the Pony of Shadows was a Separate Entity that was controlling Stygian, and go with the Theory that the Pony of Shadows was originally responsible for Nightmare Moon(where after the PoS was banished, a small fragment of him was left behind & found it's way to Luna, where it was convincing her to give in to her Jealousy of Celestia, then when Luna finally betrayed her sister, it made her vulnerable enough for the PoS fragment to possess her, thus changing her into NMM{in a style similar to that of the Mania Symbiote}, which can be evidenced by the fact that NMM & the PoS both had the same goal of bringing forth the Eternal Night/Eternal Darkness, and the fact they both had great resentment to someone else that they felt close to before they felt as if they were being pushed aside), if Luna became aware that the Evil Entity that made Stygian become the PoS was also the same entity responsible for making her become NMM, it would have made sense that she would want to help Stygian fight this Evil Entity, not just for Stygian, but also for what the Evil Entity made Luna have to suffer though during her NMM phase, and Stygian & Luna would both become stronger for this, and both have a great understanding of each other because they both went though similar struggles, but that's just what I think, how about you.
I actually wrote a series addressing some of these points you raised. Ironically, the Pony of Shadows looks remarkably similar to my description of the final antagonist of the story (and no, I'm not under the impression that "they ripped me off" as so many fan creators parrot).
You're glossing over one of the crucial pieces of Starlight's role in "Shadow Play": nopony listened to her until the end. You couldn't have that with Luna; Starswirl would presumably have given her some respect as he would be expecting her to be a competent adult princess by now, even if he does remember her as a filly, and even more so Twilight would not simply brush her concerns aside. The writers would either need Luna to not say anything about trying to redeem Stygian until the end, which I would find difficult to justify, or they would need a very different plot where the Mane Six and the Pillars go after the Pony of Shadows with the intent from the start of trying to bring Stygian back.
Or maybe have Starswirl be too stubborn(especially if he finds out about Luna was a former villain). Until he realizes how hurt Luna was when she found out about his attitude, shaking his view up when it got through to him just in time. Then they go to confront Stygian to settle the whole mess and save him.
It does not work because Luna & Celestia were NOT yet fully matured adult by the time Starswirl "dissapeared" [they never even MET the other 5 pilars or Stygian]. -> So the idea that they "knew Starswirl before he was famous" is simply wrong. Luna likely wrote FOR Starswirl, but the reverse is unlikely [even if he did, he would likely focus his hornwritting to make something legible as intended for others to be read; unlike his own journal]. Also, Luna is NOT a good example of a "reformed villain"; as it is implied that she LOST her memories about all the emotions that led to her becoming Nightmare Moon back when she was "zapped good" by the "rainbow tornado" on S1E02 (otherwise she would not had the need to set up the Tantabus as "a reminder" of those events; as her own experience should be enough for that).
About Starswirl talking about "Once Evil, Always Evil": If Luna was reverted not only physically (the "big filly alicorn" at the end of S1E02), but also mentally [literally "losing most of her mind" alongside Nightmare Moon´s powers from being unable to remember the "dark powers" referenced on Luna Eclipsed]; then it would not be applicable because she "has not being corrupted yet" from her point of view.
About Stygian "listening to Luna" instead of Starlight... Luna is an alicorn princess (either born or "ascended") that he may recognize only by name (him being an scholar makes this a posibility). Starlight Glimmer is a "nobody" natural unicorn who developed her own powers. He had his doubts about "the alicorn" Twilight´s words until "the unicorn" Starlight said to him that she was her mentor and the one who changed her mind back when she was in a similar position than him. -> It is safe to assume that Stygian has no idea who Twilight or Starlight are, but also has no reason to think they would be lying to him [asuming that is even possible while they are "inside the shadow"].
Luna & Celestia were NOT yet fully matured adult by the time Starswirl. How can you tell? We don't even know how old they were before they even found land of Equestria. From what we know - they could have been 1500, 2000,3000 or whatever years old.
Luna still remembers she was Nightmare Moon though. So the whole "Once a villain always a villain" thing would still hurt her, could have been an interesting scenario. Speaking of that, was really not fond of how Luna apparently accepts she's in Celestia's shadow after being hit by the rainbow like that. Like she was basically brainwashed by it. Instead of resolving the actual issues that led NMM to happen, it was just zapping her with a rainbow and that's it.
100% agree, Luna would have been better than starlight here, but starlight still could have had a role in the conflict. Maybe starlight and Luna looking at the diary together, Starlight figuring out some of the old ponish and Luna being able to understand the horn writing. The potential confrontation with star swirl you mentioned and his attitude towards "evil" being unforgivable, maybe luna freezes up or makes an excuse to leave? then the visits around equestria before returning to the castle where Luna and Starlight could have had a mare to mare discussion over being reformed villians and attempt to confront star swirl with a plan together to help stigeon instead. star swirls stubborn repeated response, then the map summons Luna and Starlight to the well where stigeon is hiding.
I feel these are some good questions that should be asked of the writers behind this episode should they make themselves available at any conventions going forward. Unfortunately for the time being we can only guess at their motivations and decision-making processes.
I just noticed something that I wanted to share, about starlights village, if you think about it ,not having talents such as farming, and we've already seen that crops don't grow on there own in equestria , if. they couldn't even make proper food, how would they be able to grow said ingredients for those foods. it seems like the village would have failed on its own
i think i should remind you regarding Stygian, it was already said that the princesses never met any of the other pillers (and that likely includes stygian)
I just wish Starlight didn't get this opportunity until she faced down Chrysalis for the last time. It would've made the mirrored revenge arc a lot more meaningful.
Suppose I do have a theory that: what if Luna fell into Nightmare Moon because her world turned upside down after Celestia's moment. Leaving her so alone that it's killing her. Maybe Every Memory Has Its Thorn might be a possible episode idea where we take the theory to the stage.
While I see what they was going for with the mane 6 and starlight it does seem Luna would be a better choice. Though considering he raised them she could have had a harder time seeing through the way he was acting.
Luna would be hurt by Starswirls's attitude though, she would probably not want to believe he is right. Especially with hearing Stygian's backstory, she would want to hear Stygian's side of the story there.
except it would change the story completely. Since Starswirl would listen to everything the princess have to say, the Plan to rescue the pillars would be more risky, The story would end up more convoluted & Stygian would just end up banished.
@@joshblackwell8632 Since he's her teacher, he is most likely going to be too stubborn due to authority and such. And probably he might not listen to her if he found out she was a former villain too and/or the princesses are too hesitant to get after him if he disobeys them. I am pretty sure Stygian wouldn't be banished if Luna listens to his story and realize something is up big time.
Why was Starlight even celebrated? From what i remember she was against everything And giving credit to her for the idea of talk to the villain Umm..Starie...You do realize Twilight already knows how to give a speech And even without Starlight, the moment Twilight saw Stygian she still would have gone after him
I think it would have been much more interesting if Luna played a larger role. It all felt kind of... detached and slightly uninteresting to me as it was. Just a personal opinion of course.
Very good analysis, although... if Luna was in the role of Starlight, the entire episode would be on two subjects. 1. Trying to defeat the pony of shadows 2. Luna feeling overwhelming anxiety over his assumptions and trying to convince him otherwise
In addition, Luna could try to get through to Stygian, but he would simply be too stubborn to listen. This paint a grim picture for both Luna and Starswirl of how they could have turned out if they became too set in their own ways.
You do bring up some very excellent points Dr. I think Shadow Play was a great episode the way it was. But maybe, just maybe, it could have been better.
It's an interesting topic, and that was definitely a question on my mind when I first saw the episode, but I honestly can't fully buy into the idea. Why? Because it'd be giving the writing staff too much credit. From what has been displayed in the show over the past four seasons, they barely understand the _concept_ of lasting continuity, much less the *_responsibility_* it brings. These writers are known for going the quick and easy route. In this case, the quick and easy route is making Starlight the voice of reason (ba-dum, tsh). Not only does it demonstrate how far she's come since her own reformation, but they also wouldn't have to think up an excuse as to why Starlight would be around to get involved. She _does_ live with Twilight, after all. This stuff is easy for us, but that's because we're thinking with the mindset of "this is a continuous story", and as such we remember things. _THE STAFF,_ on the other hoof, is working with the mindset of "it's just a kid's show", and thus they don't pay attention to what they themselves create. And I'm sure Lauren Faust leaving the show all that time ago helped jumble things up in the first place. It's why I plan on writing something to send to those involved with G5 on this topic. Long story short, it'd be me telling them to either commit 110% to continuity or don't bother with it at all. You can have either one or the other, but you cannot have both.
Stygian and shadow (I know he called pony of shadows but I'm just calling his shadow form "shadow" just to shorten it)...any way it's kinda giving me venom vibes in some way...just a thought but kinda like to see more stuff around stygian and shadow. Would like to see some cute stuff from them X3
What I think? Well, let me start by saying you´re right. Luna would´ve made much more sense here, instead of having Starlight´s hornwriting be so horrible that she can read Star Swirl´s without problem. After all, wouldn´t Twilight be used to such terrible hornwriting by now? Also, if you need an animator or voice actor to put a fan-made version based on your ideas together, let me know. I can´t animate (yet) or do many voices (yet), but I can do Sombra´s voice. Seriously, how awesome would it be if we had a fan-made episode, fully animated and voiced and stuff, based on these ideas?
Its possible that everything Twilight read before may have been bad handwriting in Ponyish but she more than likely never ran into terrible Old ponish hornwriting.
My thoughts are, no, Luna rightfully should not of been the "Star" of "Shadow Play", but a later episode should be made where Luna and Starswirl do interact, perhaps with Celestia, perhaps not. Why shouldn't Luna of been the Star? Because SHE was Starswirl's student and that different dynamic would make things more difficult if not impossible to resolve as... friendly between the Pillars and Stygian, as because she was Starswirl's student, he held a position of authority over her, and their interactions concerning her redemption, and more likely her fall, would likely cause tension greater then Starlight the random pony he doesn't know and holds no power over, past or present. Prior to learning his own lesson in friendship, I have little doubt that Starswirl, the inadvertent jerk, would use, or try to use, that old authority to dismiss any arguments Luna has for a different course of action, and while he also dismissed Starlight out of hoof, she never held him in any position with power over her nor was there any prior bond to break to cause further tension.
Actually it would have been more good for Luna. She would be hurt by Starswirl's attitude due to she was a former villain. Having her get past through Starswirl's bs and shake him up, making him realize his "Once a villain always a villain" thing is not really good. Showing she has grown from what has happened. Starswirl realizing how he has hurt her with that foolish attitude would surely have been something to see.
night shroud96 To a point. While it would be a good character development for Luna to overcome a teacher's bias, it is also unneeded growth, perhaps even a step back then forwards again as it would be another form of the (some would say attempted) growth from Sleepless in Ponyville (Might be getting the title wrong). The primary similarity between Luna and Stygian, feeling unappreciated and needing validation from others isn't even known till Twilight speaks to Stygian inside the Shadow, so this is also where some doylistic reasons come into play, say Twilight invited Celestia and Luna to her Castle to meet the returned Pillars as a surprise, you'd get a reunion that's aborted by the reveal of "The Pony of Shadows'" return, they'd just as likely to leave to prepare should things go wrong, or stay out of their mentor's way, as they are to help as they are the ruling monarchs, and as the personal relationship they have would lead them to trust Starswirl's opinion even if he states his opinions on villains they both probably won't argue unless it's in private and afterwards, out of respect. So yes, it could show Luna's growth, but doylistically it would detract from the episode and that in turn would lessen the impact, while watsonianly it's variance on the pre-existing messages, while still showing growth, might not be great enough to use it in this episode appropriately. This also discounts that this episode is as much about Twilight's relationship with Starlight as it is about correcting Starswirl's past wrong, current attitude, and redeeming Stygian. Luna and Twilight, while distant friends (acquaintances via Celestia, friend of a sibling at worst), don't have a mentor/student or even close friend relationship, and talk they have about Stygian would be different, how different would affect how the climax would go, perhaps without the doubts that Starlight planted that Banishment was the only option, Twilight could of not hesitated to banish Stygian, or instead could of hesitated more when Stygian appeared as a separate being within the Shadow. So, short rebuttal, yes, it could of, but would it of been as good an episode and/or lesson?
[You mean "replace" Starswirl,] Could or Should Luna been a bigger part alongside BestPony within things and have it end with the freeing of the oldsters as a much bigger story? Well, ya. (Much as how they could/shouldn't have replaced the functioning canon post movie)
It would be similar if the CMC were the stars in "School Raze". Why did "The Cart Before The Ponies" ended without revealing the winner? Why didn't Chrysalis took the CMC in "To Where And Back Again"? I believe that the CMC has the seventh element hidden in the three of them. Once the season eight finale aired, I think Cozy Glow locked them in the closet because she knew that the CMC had the seventh element. So how it should have ended, when the student six were snatched by the magic orb from the magic magnet, Cozy Glow began to complete her plan to remove magic. When her back is turned, the CMC break out of the closet, enter the catacombs and save Starlight and the student six by pulling the magic artifacts one by one. That ruined Cozy's plan and finally restore magic. I believe that the CMC were barriers of the seventh element. We will have to wait until season nine if the seventh element was mentioned.
I personally didn't much care for Shadow Play, to me it was one of the weakest season finales. I believe adding Luna instead of Starlight or better yet having them work together would have been more interesting.
Luna, the way you're painting her would have been probably too deep to tell. Plus that would just open up the fact that she was still insecure about her past. What you're saying is that she's essentially doing a Fluttershy type of role of insecurity and while that was fine in earlier seasons, I am not sure if they want to do it this late in the show. While I admit that the backstory would have been very interesting to flesh out, and possibly expand upon in later episodes. I don't see the writers doing that as they primarily seem to focus on Twilight and the other princesses tend to be "too busy" ruling for much more than advice, saves (or being saved) or little stories that focus on any other pony (with exceptions). I'm just wondering, wouldn't Celestia be Twilight's first thought since she'd been her mentor for like forever? Why didn't anyone stop to tell Celestia and Luna that "Hey, we brought back Starswirled the bearded before they went gallivanting all over Equestria? It would have only taken a moment with Spike and who knows? Maybe the princesses could have joined in their power or helped with the tracking resources since they rule all of Equestria.
That was my biggest issue with this episode. Why weren't the Royal Sisters involved! Twilight finds a way to bring back Starswirl and the Princess are like, go have fun with that? Really?! If you go by "The Journal of the Two Sisters" as canon, Starswirl appointed Celestia and Luna AS the rulers of Equestria as will taught them the magic that lead to their cutie marks! And they did not want to help out in his return? Bad move writers! Bad move!
And the gang clearly had enough time to go and ask for the sisters' help too. They wasted hours trying to find the Pony of Shadow's hiding spot, they could have sent someone to warn the sisters while that was happening.
Hmmm Her roles in the show where she played a big enough part were in......👇 1.) Season 1 premiere 2.) Luna Eclipsed 3.) Sleepless in Ponyville 4.) Princess Twilight sparkle 5.) For Whom the sweetie belle toils 6.) Bloom & Gloom 7.) Do Princesses dream of Magic Sheep 8.) The Cutie Remark 9.) The Crystalling 10.) To where and back again 11.) A royal problem P.s I don't know if i should have included "Castle Mane-ia" since her Legend is what played a role in RD & AJ's Part of the story. "Slice of life" since it was the side characters time to shine. "Hearth's warming Tail" since that technically isn't Luna in a role.
@Frost E Bear 4.) Her role consisted of Turning into Nightmare Moon, Helping to seal Discord originally, Finding the tree of harmony & Getting captured. I was debating whether i should even count what she did as minor role in this episode since her "role" was mainly in the flashbacks that were used to get the Mane 6 to save the tree of harmony. And if they Celestia & Luna hadn't found the tree all the events that came after would never have happened. 8.) This is another episode i was debating to put on here since Technically its Nightmare moon but at the same time Luna turned into nightmare moon in that specific future, was never turned back into Luna by the elements of harmony & she Sent Celestia to the moon thus conquering equestria. 9.) Her role consisted of helping to keep the storm at bay & Helping to keep the crystal heart together. Both of which were important to save the Crystal empire. So i counted it as a minor role. 10.) Luna getting that message to Starlight did help her figure out the situation faster. And it prevented her from going to canterlot to get help from them since going there would have more than likely have just gotten her captured. So i counted it as a minor role.
Josh Blackwell Let play would you rather. 1. Would you rather kiss Pinkie Pie or go on a lovely date with Rainbow Dash? 2. Would you rather try to convince Sunburst that Starlight Glimmer is sexy or study late with Twilight Sparkle? 3. Would you rather see the Cutie Mark Crusaders all grown up or be a teacher at Twilight Sparkle Friendships School? 4. Would you rather ask Fluttershy personal questions or ask why is Derpy Hooves eyes look like that? 5. Would you rather listen to Applejack boring family story or make clothes with Rarity? 6. Would you rather ask Lyra Heartstrings if she love Bon Bon or ask why does Bon Bon get so upset at Lyra Heartstrings most of the time? 7. Would you rather help Spike get a girlfriend or help him find his real parents?
I believe that starlight is better than Luna in this episode because I don't think there would have been much of a conflict about friendship and what the was right. Yes although Luna is a reformed villian, she is still a princess and I believe that even though she might not have wanted to, she would have to do what is right for the land of Equestria. Twilight lost sight of what friendship is in this episode and I think it helps to have your equal point out what's wrong versus a higher up.
Yeah, sometimes I think Faust wrote this show into a corner when she called it "Friendship is Magic." Still, all they would have to do is make Stygian pure evil and more powerful and have the conflict manifest in some other way...like Luna and Twilight wanting to help Stygian, but him being too stubborn to accept it. And if they had to force a friendship lesson in their somewhere, maybe it could have involved Twilight's tense relationship with Starswirl. But...this arc would have needed to be a lot longer than just a two-part episode to do it justice and that seems to be a no-no for Western cartoons.
Pretty sure Luna would try to save Stygian anyway. Especially due to if they allow Stygian to be banished like that, especially after hearing what led him to become this. It will bring up the pain of how Celestia had to forsake Luna for the sake of all of Equestria by sending her to the moon. Luna would be determined to not let this fate happen to Stygian, like finding another way.
Because hasbro can’t stand how popular Luna is lol. The fandom wouldn’t have been able to handle it😂. But in all seriousness something similar to that thought has crossed my mind a couple times.
I heavily disagree. While it would've been nice to see the sisters interact with beardy-face more, I gotta agree with everyone in the comments. I frankly think we'd had enough of "OH WOE IS ME" Luna. She's already gotten plenty of focus and the episode works just fine as it is.
Not exactly. She only has like 2 episodes I recall touching on her problems as NMM in a way and that was it. Luna Eclipsed and the Tantabus episode. That is all iirc. She didn't get any good focus on any of the finales, just sidelined or just get taken out badly by a bad guy.
I know I'm four years late, but I just found this. I think you missed a key component of why Starlight was there. You claimed that the whole point of her being there was to bring the perspective of a reformed villain who found the power of friendship. This is half-true. A huge part of "Shadow Play" is the idea of idol worship and playing into Twilight's core character flaw of allowing her zealotry about those she looks up to cloud her judgment. With this in mind, it would be very strange for her not to listen to Luna in that moment of being part of the problem. Starlight, on the other hand, isn't someone Twilight had ever idolized or put on a pedestal, so she was having to compete with that sort of influence to talk sense into Twilight. If Luna were in that spot, I think it would have been very strange if Twilight didn't just listen to Luna on the spot and the episode ended with a conversation with Stygian.
Man...I like the episode just fine as it is, but this would have been a great alternate take. -the fact that I'm an unabashed Luna fanboy has nothing to do with it-
The problem with using Luna instead of Starlight in Shadow play is that if Luna had been involved, Celestia would have most probably been involved as well, and it would have felt even more convoluted had both of them gone with the risky plan to rescue the Pillars from limbo, and also allowing Starswirl to go with his plan to banish Stygian until the last minute. They also have more authority than Starlight, and it would make Starswirl difficult to just simply ignore their opinion like with Starlight.
How about the fact on how they react to Starswirl's attitude of "Once a villain, always a villain", imagine how hurt Luna would be due to her dark past.
Its seriously a wasted opportunity there.
I think the best explanation I can think of is the reason why Starlight instead of Luna played a big role in these episodes is because Luna was reformed by the healing spell from the "Elements of Harmonies" magic, where as Starlight she was reformed the most likely real life way. As in words of righteous influence. So maybe them talking to Stygian was probably the best way to get Stygian to fight the "darkness" that was manipulating him.
DRWolf,your theory videos are always amazing,and they always discuss good interesting topics.
I agree with you that Luna wood have been a better choice
Agreed
They didn't want to have the fans over reacting by her presence
While I think it would have been a superior story had Luna been used, I think the whole arc was originally designed around giving Starlight her time in the sun, and thus was built originally around her, thus Luna hadn't come into the equation. TBH, Luna seems a sort of 'off limits' topic for the writers most of the time, tho I am uncertain why. It's almost as if the writers are either afraid to use her, or feel that her story is 'over'.
Apparently, they wanted to give Luna an episode in season 1, but were told by the higher-ups not to because they felt she would be too scary a character...stupid, I know. Honestly, I think the writers just don't know how to handle dark and complex characters. If Michael Reeves, Paul Dini, or even whoever wrote the movie wrote "Magic Sheep," it would have been much better.
Luna's story is certainly not over.
She is still in Celestia's shadow and there is sure a whole bunch of issues within her they could have touched on.
Luna taking on Stygian as her student like how Celestia took on Twilight would've been a nice touch
That... _sorta_ happens in the Nightmare Knight comics
It's honestly more of a partnership than a mentor-student relationship.
I think it would have been a bit redundant considering what happened in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?".
I agree
@Frost E Bear Why not?
@Frost E Bear Ok, no need to be rude.
Second, I'm not saying that don't like the idea of Luna having a role in the episode, i just much prefer the way things played in in the actual finale.
Not exactly.
Luna was dealing with her guilt but what about the fact she can show that "Once a villain is NOT always a villain"?
Like her dark past lets her relate to the others.
It would have been nice for Luna to feature in the finale. But, I'm personally happy with what we got.
Besides, Luna's role in "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" and "A Royal Problem" were sufficient for me.
I agree.
I'm with Joshscorcher on "Magic Sheep." Whoever wrote that episode didn't know what they were doing. "A Royal Problem" was a great episode, but I still think we need one more good Luna episode to make up for "Magic Sheep."
@@realJoeMavro I quite liked "Magic Sheep", but to each his own.
@@realJoeMavro Also, didn't Joshscorcher also say he liked "Newbie Dash?"
@@realJoeMavro I feel like after the Tantabus episode, they completely dropped touching on the issues Luna has within and Nightmare Moon. Like it abruptly ended.
Some fans said on how Luna's guilt was fixed just like that wasn't really realistic. Like Luna needs therapy there.
Somebody Sign a Petition For Another Episode Where Luna is The Main Protagonist Where She Battles Another Evil With The Mane 6 With a Touching Ending Where Celestia is Proud of Her And They All Hug That’s What I’m Waiting For! SOMEONE PLEASE DO IT!!!!!!!
Starswirl wasn't her possible mentor, he was outright stated to be multiple times, including in both the episodes you've been talking about. Also, you are right, Luna would have been a better choice than Starlight.
Given my pet theory that Stygian's Pony of Shadows was only one manifestation of a larger malevolent force you could have tendrils of shadow reaching out to Luna and have shifting glimpses of Nightmare Moon trying to bring out the whole thing once again.
Very good points Dr. Wolf.
Same
The mentor-student-chain wouldn't work as well if it wasn't Starlight.
Also, Luna might not yet have the confidence to be so bold as to confront her teacher about it. She pretty much agreed as seen in Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep. Luna wouldn't dare speak up. She's been out of the loop for a 1000 years too...
Starlight, though: she has NO trouble about challenging authority. She already did that with Twilight about befriending Trixie. Plus she doesn't really see Starswirl as an authority figure, just one old pony with out-of-date (by 1000 years) ideas she disagrees with. Also, even at her craziest, if she was in charge, she would *always* consider that redemption is possible, even likely. Not redeeming someone is what she would never think of.
There's an easy way to fix this: just have Stygian be pure bucking evil. MLP has more than enough redeemed villains already, so why not let bad guys just be bad guys again? That way, Luna can prove herself to her mentor, be a hero to Equestria and get some closure on her own dark past.
Its actually a bad thing Luna is unable to speak up to Starswirl like that and its just left like that.
She would be hurt by the whole "Once a villain, always a villain" attitude, having Luna overcome her issue and speak up against Starswirl would have her become stronger.
You know what really grinds my gears, the way the show staff build up hype about the pillars of equestria and then just threw them by the wayside in favor of the school thing
Well, the pillars are kind of obsolete as heroes. I think they are on the right track with them finding other ways to fit into the new Equestria.
Forgive the late comment doc but after getting and reading my copy of Knightmare Nights issue 4 I wanted to inform that the last couple of pages kinda play with this idea. Obviously no where near to the depth you suggested but it made me think back to this as I was reading it.
I wish Luna had a bigger part in the special as well. Maybe not replace StarLight, but be included in the story more. I really wanted, and still want, Luna to interact to Stygian. In the comics and other things, which I know aren't super cannon, Luna says it was a shadow that she befriended and it made her Nightmare Moon, that's like the same thing as Stygian. I hope we can see more of the Pillers and have them interact with the princesses, and way more back story and explanations for everything!!
Literally a little while after I watched that finale, I thought to myself, "Wait, this Pony of Shadows is basically Nightmare Moon 2.0 XP"
I didn't have any issues with that, but what a weird similarity.
Your idea is SO much better than the actual episode!!
I think Shadow Play is just fine as is. As interesting as it would be to give Luna some more focus, I'm not so sure having another time with Luna worrying over Nightmare Moon not long after "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?" would have just felt well past it's limit. A lot of people were tired of it when even that episode came out so having it played up again in Shadow Play I think wouldn't have been all that well received. We need more of Luna AWAY from Nightmare Moon, show her more like they did in A Royal Problem where we see her in her role as a princess or a growing mentor with the CMC, not the remorseful villain.
If Luna had played a role in this episode, she wouldn´t have been a remorseful former villain. She would know that she is a good pony now, but her former mentor, Star Swirl, didn´t believe in reformation.
Her conflict for this episode wouldn´t have been whether or not she´s good, but whether or not Star Swirl believes she is.
Like, imagine Star Swirl finding out about Luna´s past as Nightmare Moon and being all like "Once a villain, always a villain. There are enough spells to alter the caster´s form and voice, so how do we know you´re not just Nightmare Moon pretending to be Luna?"
@@Kartoffelkamm That's all fine and dandy, but it would still feel like re-tredding old ground. I just don't care about Nightmare Moon anymore, I want it gone, moved past it already. I don't want Luna to be talking about Nightmare Moon anymore. I want to know more about Luna besides Nightmare Moon and how this telling of Shadow Play would go down, it's just not something interesting enough to want to see.
@@Kartoffelkamm I think the power dynamics are too messed up if Luna is included. And I don't mean magical power.
The rest of the cast defer to Luna. As Starlight would say in Horse Play, she's a "Princess princess". She's a character the others listen to and look up to. The conflict of shadow Play is contingent on Starswirl steamrolling everyone. The only person who matches his authority is Twilight, but she's too starstruck to countermand him.
Starlight is, well, lesser. She's beneath Twilight. Twi cares for her of course, but she's not as high on the totem pole as Starswirl. He outranks her, so what he's suggesting overides her warnings. If Luna played Starlight's exact role, that of the ignored person offering caution. I don't quite buy that no one would listen to her.
@@khfanboy666 Yeah, but who said Luna had to play Starlight´s exact role?
Maybe she could be as starstruck as Twilight at first, but start doubting Star Swirl´s methods.
@@DJSkywalker716 It will not retred old ground in a bad way there.
Nightmare Moon is forever part of Luna, having it be completely gone/forgotten is like forgetting what made Luna in the first place. We were first introduced to her as a tragic villain due to she felt unloved and was consumed in pain and ended up becoming something terrifying, resulting in a great tragedy.
Luna may have been past that, it would be fitting for her to be able to use her experience to help others through darkness too. Accepting NMM is part of her and show there is hope.
I think the story would have had more impact if it was Luna as the focal point, Starlight could have still played a supporting role, mind you. Think about it, Luna and Starlight could have had a moment where they compare notes on the situation while also sharing their stories about why it was they were villains to begin with. Granted, I think the Nightmare Moon transformation moment we saw in the Plunder Seed episode would have been more impactful if we got to see Nightmare Moon existing for more than a handful of minutes. The show builds Nightmare Moon up as this great villain that threatened Equestria with a neverending night but when the show finally shows the original Nightmare Moon incident we get maybe 20 in-universe minutes of Celestia and Nightmare Moon flying around the castle causing collateral damage.
Now, if it was explained to the Audience, and Twilight, in a condensed form that this conflict lasted for what was effectively days or weeks, it would have made things a bit more impactful and better shown just how much of a threat Nightmare Moon really was. By the same extension, they should have shown how the Pony of Shadows was a major threat in the past, instead of Starswirl telling everyone why the Pony of Shadows needs to be stopped.
It's a show, so show the viewers, don't just tell them like an inept lecturer, what you want them to see. Tirek was shown to be a threat, for a number of reasons, but they did drop the ball with Queen Chrysalis in showing how she was a threat, her first appearance perfectly illustrated how she could be a threat, but most of her appearances afterward just had her come off an inept twit instead of some scheming mastermind, and Cozy Glow was shown to be a much more subtle threat in how she operated and was the only clearly malicious pony antagonist the series had.
Starlight had a good place in this finale, but now you're mention it, I think it would be better if Luna had this role in the finale. It would've been nice to give Luna a bigger role in a finale. Sure, she had her finale where she was the villain. But Luna hasen't a chance to be in a real battle in the finale's or at least it wasn't focused on her.
I'll give you a answer Dr. Wolf, because the writers were looking for any and every excuse to have Starlight in an episode. Even if another character would have done the job just fine or even better.
I would also offer the consideration that both princesses could have been involved. Luna being able to better relate Stygian for having fallen herself, and Celestia towards Star Swirl the Bearded.
And Luna being a former villain would shake Starswirl's "Once a villain, always a villain" attitude too.
the series is about to end, time to make the most of it
I find that there will be a sequel to the 2017 MLP movie on TV Tropes
@@littlepipthelightbringer4197 Never trust TV Tropes.
@@HarmonyBunny Well,fuck you then
@@littlepipthelightbringer4197 pfft seeing this 2 years later i hope youve grown as a person lmao
I think Luna should have been the one to reform the villain in this episode since she KNOWS what it's like to be left out and be gripped to darkness like sitchen she should have been the one to remind him that darkness is not part of him but another side of him that can hardly be taken control from
There is one major change that would have taken place in "Shadow Play" had Luna taken the place of Starlight- it never would have happened in the first place. After seeing that Starswirl was missing because he was acting as a living seal to hold back the Pony of Shadows, Luna's responsibility as princess would have demanded that she do everything in her power to make sure Twilight doesn't break that spell because Luna would know that would free the monster as well. She also probably would have viewed leaving the spell intact as a "last wish" from Starswirl so to speak. So yeah HIGHLY doubtful Luna would have ever allowed that spell to be broken if she had known that is what Twilight was trying to do.
That's a definite possibility. Or Luna could side with Twilight because she secretly feels lost without Starswirl. Celestia could be the one against bringing the pillars back, but it seems just as likely that she would think bringing Stygian back is a small price to pay for seeing her old mentor again. Heck, Celestia may not even consider Stygian a threat now that she has Luna, Twilight, and Starlight on her side. Celestia and Luna's characterizations often depend on whoever's writing them, so this scenario could go a dozen different ways.
Not unless we have Luna come in after Twilight screws up there.
Or she arrives after she found out whats happening but was too late with what Twilight will do, just in time to see the Pony of Shadows popping up.
It’s a pretty good idea to put Luna on the two-part season 7 finale, but what risk can she oppose to stop the Pony of Shadows in order to save Stygian?
Should have? No. But could she? Yes.
I'm going to be honest, I really wish it had been more like this than what we got. Or at least have the other characters do something more. It's one of the reasons why I stopped watching the show. Starlight figures out how to read the journal, is the only one to voice her worries about this, the only one strong enough to push back the Pony of Shadows, the only one to try and figure out how this happened, and so on. All the rest of the cast did was go on a brief fetch quest and...sit with the other pillars hanging out. It honestly felt like the writers were saying these characters (the mane 6) and like the pillars: has beens. I also got angry when Starswirl was talking about once a villain always a villain no chance of redemption and not one of the mane 6 spoke up. Twilight didn't mention Luna like when in Luna Eclipsed. Fluttershy didn't stand up for Discord. Or any of the other characters whose lives were changed because of these 6.It's because of this and people calling me retarded for thinking like this that caused me to stop watching the show. I still keep up with whats going on from time to time, that's all the effort I can give to the show.
That's a lot better than having Starlight Glimmer be the hero. I mean seriously Starlight Glimmer already had her victory give it to someone else.
Except based on what happened in "Do Princesses dream of magic sheep". Luna shouldn't need to be put in that role again since she moved past it.
And didn't Luna & Celestia technically have their victory in "A royal problem" when they Defeated Daybreaker & Nightmare moon Saving Starlight??
Not to mention what is currently going on in the comics.
@@joshblackwell8632
As long as Starlight Glimmer isn't shoe horned in to be important then I'll be thankful. In all honesty she doesn't deserve the attention she gets.
@@leohino9211 She is Twilight's student it makes sense for her to giving attention especially since she has the same Main character status as Spike and she is important to Twilight's growth as a Teacher/Mentor she does deserve that attention. When exactly has she been "shoe-horned" in to you???
@@joshblackwell8632
Ever since her god awful reformation. Maybe she can fool everyone else but to me she's still that pathetic little pony who almost destroyed Equestria.
@@leohino9211 Technically she never destroyed Equestria. And what was wrong with her reformation???
Now I really want to see your version of Shadow Play!
with the mlp staff making more episodes surrounded by the princess I do think that there leading up to something bigger with them. I also hope it has something to do with nightmare moons return, but against Luna's will.
Or like something restores Luna's (forcibly purged/purified) bitterness and re-awakens Nightmare Moon within her.
And Luna now has to properly resolve the darkness within her.
One thing also you'd get if it was Luna, I'm curious how the Stygian Pony of Shadows is related to the Pony of Shadows from Castle Mane-ia, which was said to be a fragment of Nightmare Moon's power.
only in the dark can light truly shine
man, I would've MUCH rather have watched this play out with Luna over Starlight
Personally, I prefer what we got. For one reason: Starlight's redemption arc was "completed" in this episode.
She finally treats something magic-related with proper caution and wariness.
She's confident enough to speak out against flipping STARSWIRL THE BEARDED, someone I think we all respected, without immediately backpeddling("A Royal Problem").
And most importantly, she employed the same mindset that Twilight did for her. Instead of instantly condemning Stygian based on Starswirl's ego-driven preaching, she absolutely refuses to believe that Stygian is unsavable, because she knows for a fact that she was unsavable once and Twi still managed to save her.
I know there've been a few people that dislike this episode because Starlight was "Made to be the hero" but...that's not true.
Starlight is the voice of reason, sure, but she wasn't the hero. If anything, she was trying to build up Twilight as the hero by constantly encouraging Twi, reminding her of her non-Starswirl-influenced morality, and stepping in to provide backup when confronting Stygian.
Now had this episode been a 3-parter, then by all means, squeeze some Alircorn Princesses into the episode, but otherwise...
That's the thing though, Twilight isn't really the hero of Shadow Play either. She creates the conflict, then gets steamrolled by Starswirl only to fail talking down Stygian. Starlight pretty much finishes the job for her the whole time.
1) You got me on the Starswirl steamrolling her, but at least, the Mane Six did kinda speak up and try to get Twilight back in charge.
2) The most Starlight does in this episode as a whole is go to Twilight and say, "Yo, remember how you're supposed to be the Princess of Friendship, and therefore the most moral and righteous character in this show? Yeah, ignore Discount Gandalf's 'banish 'em all' attitude and be that center of morality!"
IMO, this is a job that's geared more toward Star's character since she basically based her entire redemption on the concept of Twilight having Jesus-level morality.
3) The only reason Twi failed to talk down Stygian was because of the Pony of Shadow's influence(Which is also why Star had to speak up in the first place, saying, "Hey! You! Yeah, you! This girl's legit!"). Had it not been for that thing, Stygian would most certainly have backed down.
4) Out of curiosity, who do you personally think IS the real hero of "Shadow Play" if it's not Twilight?
It's not Starswirl as he's the jerk who's semi-responsible for this whole mess to begin with.
It's not Starlight since she didn't really do anything other than serve as support for Twilight.
It certainly isn't the Princesses.
And it's not the Pillars or the Remane Five, as none of them really know what's going on, they're just there for the ride and to stop the bad guy.
Yet every last one of them contributed in some fashion, so wouldn't that mean, every character is the hero of the episode?
If Twilight saved Starlight, that makes her "savable" by definition. I agree with everything else, but only because the writer of this episode clearly wanted yet another redeemed villain that we'll probably never see again. I think it would have been more exciting if Stygian were evil to the core. If he were, then Luna would have been the perfect foil to him. She could try everything in her power to get through to him, but he could simply be too set in his ways to listen. That would make for a very compelling and heart-breakingly real lesson.
@@matthewcrombie3630
Starlight basically picks up the slack every time Twi fails. Can't withstand the Pony of Shadow's death beam? I'll take care of that for you. Intimidated by Starswirl? I'll keep suggesting that we talk Dark and Gruesome down, then give you are tearful stunner when you still won't take a hint. Couldn't talk Stygian out of not-Venom? I'll jump in and finish the job for you. I'd say she's the hero, if only because she was the one doing everything.
TBH though, that's a running theme with Starlight: handing the rest of the main cast the idiot stick so that she can come in and fix things for them. Why develop your characters further when you can just use her to get the point across?
JoeMavro I myself enjoy the running theme of "Everyone can be saved" that MLP conveys, so I'm fine with Stygian getting reformed.
Though it would have been interesting if the Pony of Shadows managed to successfully pull him into Limbo. We would have gotten a rescue mission plot for the S8 premiere instead of Chancellor Racist.
But hey! At least the Pony of Shadows itself is still evil, even if it's trapped in Limbo. Plus, you never know who might try rescuing that thing for their own purposes. *Looks at Cozy Glow*
i can see this kind of idea making the story a bit stronger and more memorable. maybe even throw in celestia near the end to help her mentor as well. ehhh. oh well. maybe it's fuel for fanfics. you never know. i just hope with season 9 as the last season they gotta give cadence more charater development. cause you can't quite end the series without all questions being answered. even if i know there will be a lot of questions after the series finale. i trust the staff to end it on a high note.
Well looking at the IDW Comics(be they Canon or Not), when you use the ideal that Nightmare Moon was actually a Separate Entity that Possessed Luna turning her into NMM(like the Venom Symbiote), and the fact that the Pony of Shadows was a Separate Entity that was controlling Stygian, and go with the Theory that the Pony of Shadows was originally responsible for Nightmare Moon(where after the PoS was banished, a small fragment of him was left behind & found it's way to Luna, where it was convincing her to give in to her Jealousy of Celestia, then when Luna finally betrayed her sister, it made her vulnerable enough for the PoS fragment to possess her, thus changing her into NMM{in a style similar to that of the Mania Symbiote}, which can be evidenced by the fact that NMM & the PoS both had the same goal of bringing forth the Eternal Night/Eternal Darkness, and the fact they both had great resentment to someone else that they felt close to before they felt as if they were being pushed aside), if Luna became aware that the Evil Entity that made Stygian become the PoS was also the same entity responsible for making her become NMM, it would have made sense that she would want to help Stygian fight this Evil Entity, not just for Stygian, but also for what the Evil Entity made Luna have to suffer though during her NMM phase, and Stygian & Luna would both become stronger for this, and both have a great understanding of each other because they both went though similar struggles, but that's just what I think, how about you.
Given that in Faust's original vision that something corrupted Luna into Nightmare Moon , I believe the Pony of Shadows could have been the culprit
Happy New Year 2019 Doc :)
2019 new
He doc happy new year 2019
Eh-
2021*
I actually wrote a series addressing some of these points you raised. Ironically, the Pony of Shadows looks remarkably similar to my description of the final antagonist of the story (and no, I'm not under the impression that "they ripped me off" as so many fan creators parrot).
You're glossing over one of the crucial pieces of Starlight's role in "Shadow Play": nopony listened to her until the end. You couldn't have that with Luna; Starswirl would presumably have given her some respect as he would be expecting her to be a competent adult princess by now, even if he does remember her as a filly, and even more so Twilight would not simply brush her concerns aside. The writers would either need Luna to not say anything about trying to redeem Stygian until the end, which I would find difficult to justify, or they would need a very different plot where the Mane Six and the Pillars go after the Pony of Shadows with the intent from the start of trying to bring Stygian back.
Or maybe have Starswirl be too stubborn(especially if he finds out about Luna was a former villain).
Until he realizes how hurt Luna was when she found out about his attitude, shaking his view up when it got through to him just in time. Then they go to confront Stygian to settle the whole mess and save him.
It does not work because Luna & Celestia were NOT yet fully matured adult by the time Starswirl "dissapeared" [they never even MET the other 5 pilars or Stygian].
-> So the idea that they "knew Starswirl before he was famous" is simply wrong.
Luna likely wrote FOR Starswirl, but the reverse is unlikely [even if he did, he would likely focus his hornwritting to make something legible as intended for others to be read; unlike his own journal].
Also, Luna is NOT a good example of a "reformed villain"; as it is implied that she LOST her memories about all the emotions that led to her becoming Nightmare Moon back when she was "zapped good" by the "rainbow tornado" on S1E02 (otherwise she would not had the need to set up the Tantabus as "a reminder" of those events; as her own experience should be enough for that).
About Starswirl talking about "Once Evil, Always Evil":
If Luna was reverted not only physically (the "big filly alicorn" at the end of S1E02), but also mentally [literally "losing most of her mind" alongside Nightmare Moon´s powers from being unable to remember the "dark powers" referenced on Luna Eclipsed]; then it would not be applicable because she "has not being corrupted yet" from her point of view.
About Stygian "listening to Luna" instead of Starlight...
Luna is an alicorn princess (either born or "ascended") that he may recognize only by name (him being an scholar makes this a posibility).
Starlight Glimmer is a "nobody" natural unicorn who developed her own powers.
He had his doubts about "the alicorn" Twilight´s words until "the unicorn" Starlight said to him that she was her mentor and the one who changed her mind back when she was in a similar position than him.
-> It is safe to assume that Stygian has no idea who Twilight or Starlight are, but also has no reason to think they would be lying to him [asuming that is even possible while they are "inside the shadow"].
Luna & Celestia were NOT yet fully matured adult by the time Starswirl. How can you tell? We don't even know how old they were before they even found land of Equestria. From what we know - they could have been 1500, 2000,3000 or whatever years old.
Luna still remembers she was Nightmare Moon though.
So the whole "Once a villain always a villain" thing would still hurt her, could have been an interesting scenario.
Speaking of that, was really not fond of how Luna apparently accepts she's in Celestia's shadow after being hit by the rainbow like that. Like she was basically brainwashed by it. Instead of resolving the actual issues that led NMM to happen, it was just zapping her with a rainbow and that's it.
But did pinkie pie mention Nightmare when the pillars returned?!
100% agree, Luna would have been better than starlight here, but starlight still could have had a role in the conflict. Maybe starlight and Luna looking at the diary together, Starlight figuring out some of the old ponish and Luna being able to understand the horn writing. The potential confrontation with star swirl you mentioned and his attitude towards "evil" being unforgivable, maybe luna freezes up or makes an excuse to leave? then the visits around equestria before returning to the castle where Luna and Starlight could have had a mare to mare discussion over being reformed villians and attempt to confront star swirl with a plan together to help stigeon instead. star swirls stubborn repeated response, then the map summons Luna and Starlight to the well where stigeon is hiding.
Interesting theory Doc. Did you know that you are now listed on the mlp:fim wiki site in the list of non pony characters as a result of that DVD
I feel these are some good questions that should be asked of the writers behind this episode should they make themselves available at any conventions going forward. Unfortunately for the time being we can only guess at their motivations and decision-making processes.
I just noticed something that I wanted to share,
about starlights village,
if you think about it ,not having talents such as farming, and we've already seen that crops don't grow on there own in equestria , if. they couldn't even make proper food, how would they be able to grow said ingredients for those foods. it seems like the village would have failed on its own
I agree. It would be a better fit honestly. After her own brush with evil, well consumption rather, would have been a better fit.
i think i should remind you regarding Stygian, it was already said that the princesses never met any of the other pillers (and that likely includes stygian)
I just wish Starlight didn't get this opportunity until she faced down Chrysalis for the last time. It would've made the mirrored revenge arc a lot more meaningful.
i say luna should have been in shadow play more because she knows what stygian was going through
Suppose I do have a theory that: what if Luna fell into Nightmare Moon because her world turned upside down after Celestia's moment. Leaving her so alone that it's killing her. Maybe Every Memory Has Its Thorn might be a possible episode idea where we take the theory to the stage.
Wonder how would that be resolved there?
@@nightshroud9671 Maybe I'll never know now that the series has ended. But there could be another way.
While I see what they was going for with the mane 6 and starlight it does seem Luna would be a better choice. Though considering he raised them she could have had a harder time seeing through the way he was acting.
Luna would be hurt by Starswirls's attitude though, she would probably not want to believe he is right.
Especially with hearing Stygian's backstory, she would want to hear Stygian's side of the story there.
Interesting theory,Doc
I think Luna should be a star in that episode
But....literally the writers did not want that
except it would change the story completely. Since Starswirl would listen to everything the princess have to say, the Plan to rescue the pillars would be more risky, The story would end up more convoluted & Stygian would just end up banished.
Toaster Repair Pony approved
@@joshblackwell8632 Since he's her teacher, he is most likely going to be too stubborn due to authority and such.
And probably he might not listen to her if he found out she was a former villain too and/or the princesses are too hesitant to get after him if he disobeys them.
I am pretty sure Stygian wouldn't be banished if Luna listens to his story and realize something is up big time.
Why was Starlight even celebrated?
From what i remember she was against everything
And giving credit to her for the idea of talk to the villain
Umm..Starie...You do realize Twilight already knows how to give a speech
And even without Starlight, the moment Twilight saw Stygian she still would have gone after him
DRWolf you raise a good point here
I think it would have been much more interesting if Luna played a larger role. It all felt kind of... detached and slightly uninteresting to me as it was. Just a personal opinion of course.
I'm curious about that forgotten temple. Is there an evil cult in Equestria?
I clicked on this thinking of Joy Division. Would still work. :P
Very good analysis, although...
if Luna was in the role of Starlight, the entire episode would be on two subjects.
1. Trying to defeat the pony of shadows
2. Luna feeling overwhelming anxiety over his assumptions and trying to convince him otherwise
In addition, Luna could try to get through to Stygian, but he would simply be too stubborn to listen. This paint a grim picture for both Luna and Starswirl of how they could have turned out if they became too set in their own ways.
You do bring up some very excellent points Dr. I think Shadow Play was a great episode the way it was. But maybe, just maybe, it could have been better.
You bring up a good point in your theory good job my humble wolf
I agree with Dr Wolf! Luna woulda done a better job and gotten to the root of the problem faster!
Luna should have taken the role
0:23 now that i think about it?...your right that would have been better
It's an interesting topic, and that was definitely a question on my mind when I first saw the episode, but I honestly can't fully buy into the idea.
Why?
Because it'd be giving the writing staff too much credit. From what has been displayed in the show over the past four seasons, they barely understand the _concept_ of lasting continuity, much less the *_responsibility_* it brings. These writers are known for going the quick and easy route. In this case, the quick and easy route is making Starlight the voice of reason (ba-dum, tsh). Not only does it demonstrate how far she's come since her own reformation, but they also wouldn't have to think up an excuse as to why Starlight would be around to get involved. She _does_ live with Twilight, after all.
This stuff is easy for us, but that's because we're thinking with the mindset of "this is a continuous story", and as such we remember things. _THE STAFF,_ on the other hoof, is working with the mindset of "it's just a kid's show", and thus they don't pay attention to what they themselves create. And I'm sure Lauren Faust leaving the show all that time ago helped jumble things up in the first place.
It's why I plan on writing something to send to those involved with G5 on this topic. Long story short, it'd be me telling them to either commit 110% to continuity or don't bother with it at all. You can have either one or the other, but you cannot have both.
Stygian and shadow (I know he called pony of shadows but I'm just calling his shadow form "shadow" just to shorten it)...any way it's kinda giving me venom vibes in some way...just a thought but kinda like to see more stuff around stygian and shadow. Would like to see some cute stuff from them X3
What I think? Well, let me start by saying you´re right.
Luna would´ve made much more sense here, instead of having Starlight´s hornwriting be so horrible that she can read Star Swirl´s without problem. After all, wouldn´t Twilight be used to such terrible hornwriting by now?
Also, if you need an animator or voice actor to put a fan-made version based on your ideas together, let me know.
I can´t animate (yet) or do many voices (yet), but I can do Sombra´s voice.
Seriously, how awesome would it be if we had a fan-made episode, fully animated and voiced and stuff, based on these ideas?
Its possible that everything Twilight read before may have been bad handwriting in Ponyish but she more than likely never ran into terrible Old ponish hornwriting.
@@joshblackwell8632 Fair point.
My thoughts are, no, Luna rightfully should not of been the "Star" of "Shadow Play", but a later episode should be made where Luna and Starswirl do interact, perhaps with Celestia, perhaps not.
Why shouldn't Luna of been the Star? Because SHE was Starswirl's student and that different dynamic would make things more difficult if not impossible to resolve as... friendly between the Pillars and Stygian, as because she was Starswirl's student, he held a position of authority over her, and their interactions concerning her redemption, and more likely her fall, would likely cause tension greater then Starlight the random pony he doesn't know and holds no power over, past or present.
Prior to learning his own lesson in friendship, I have little doubt that Starswirl, the inadvertent jerk, would use, or try to use, that old authority to dismiss any arguments Luna has for a different course of action, and while he also dismissed Starlight out of hoof, she never held him in any position with power over her nor was there any prior bond to break to cause further tension.
Actually it would have been more good for Luna.
She would be hurt by Starswirl's attitude due to she was a former villain.
Having her get past through Starswirl's bs and shake him up, making him realize his "Once a villain always a villain" thing is not really good. Showing she has grown from what has happened.
Starswirl realizing how he has hurt her with that foolish attitude would surely have been something to see.
night shroud96 To a point. While it would be a good character development for Luna to overcome a teacher's bias, it is also unneeded growth, perhaps even a step back then forwards again as it would be another form of the (some would say attempted) growth from Sleepless in Ponyville (Might be getting the title wrong).
The primary similarity between Luna and Stygian, feeling unappreciated and needing validation from others isn't even known till Twilight speaks to Stygian inside the Shadow, so this is also where some doylistic reasons come into play, say Twilight invited Celestia and Luna to her Castle to meet the returned Pillars as a surprise, you'd get a reunion that's aborted by the reveal of "The Pony of Shadows'" return, they'd just as likely to leave to prepare should things go wrong, or stay out of their mentor's way, as they are to help as they are the ruling monarchs, and as the personal relationship they have would lead them to trust Starswirl's opinion even if he states his opinions on villains they both probably won't argue unless it's in private and afterwards, out of respect.
So yes, it could show Luna's growth, but doylistically it would detract from the episode and that in turn would lessen the impact, while watsonianly it's variance on the pre-existing messages, while still showing growth, might not be great enough to use it in this episode appropriately.
This also discounts that this episode is as much about Twilight's relationship with Starlight as it is about correcting Starswirl's past wrong, current attitude, and redeeming Stygian.
Luna and Twilight, while distant friends (acquaintances via Celestia, friend of a sibling at worst), don't have a mentor/student or even close friend relationship, and talk they have about Stygian would be different, how different would affect how the climax would go, perhaps without the doubts that Starlight planted that Banishment was the only option, Twilight could of not hesitated to banish Stygian, or instead could of hesitated more when Stygian appeared as a separate being within the Shadow.
So, short rebuttal, yes, it could of, but would it of been as good an episode and/or lesson?
I agree with thiss this would be amazing to see
Wow, someone else recognizing that glimglam doesn't deserve the spotlight.
That would be great in my opinion :)
[You mean "replace" Starswirl,]
Could or Should Luna been a bigger part alongside BestPony within things and have it end with the freeing of the oldsters as a much bigger story? Well, ya.
(Much as how they could/shouldn't have replaced the functioning canon post movie)
I totally agree.
Do you know what I want to happen in season 9?
I'd have loved it I think :3 It would have mean a more meaningful story at least for me.
It would be similar if the CMC were the stars in "School Raze". Why did "The Cart Before The Ponies" ended without revealing the winner? Why didn't Chrysalis took the CMC in "To Where And Back Again"? I believe that the CMC has the seventh element hidden in the three of them. Once the season eight finale aired, I think Cozy Glow locked them in the closet because she knew that the CMC had the seventh element. So how it should have ended, when the student six were snatched by the magic orb from the magic magnet, Cozy Glow began to complete her plan to remove magic. When her back is turned, the CMC break out of the closet, enter the catacombs and save Starlight and the student six by pulling the magic artifacts one by one. That ruined Cozy's plan and finally restore magic. I believe that the CMC were barriers of the seventh element. We will have to wait until season nine if the seventh element was mentioned.
Honestly would have preferred if Spike was the 7th Element.
He was literally born during the event that got the Mane 6 their cutie marks.
I personally didn't much care for Shadow Play, to me it was one of the weakest season finales. I believe adding Luna instead of Starlight or better yet having them work together would have been more interesting.
Who needs Princesses when you have Wesley Glimmer?
Greetings from the Equestrian Wasteland & Stable 2,Doc
I'm going to swear less & less now
Because I don't want to bother other Stable ponies
I also like USSR Anthem
I want this series to go on past season 9
Luna, the way you're painting her would have been probably too deep to tell. Plus that would just open up the fact that she was still insecure about her past. What you're saying is that she's essentially doing a Fluttershy type of role of insecurity and while that was fine in earlier seasons, I am not sure if they want to do it this late in the show. While I admit that the backstory would have been very interesting to flesh out, and possibly expand upon in later episodes. I don't see the writers doing that as they primarily seem to focus on Twilight and the other princesses tend to be "too busy" ruling for much more than advice, saves (or being saved) or little stories that focus on any other pony (with exceptions). I'm just wondering, wouldn't Celestia be Twilight's first thought since she'd been her mentor for like forever? Why didn't anyone stop to tell Celestia and Luna that "Hey, we brought back Starswirled the bearded before they went gallivanting all over Equestria? It would have only taken a moment with Spike and who knows? Maybe the princesses could have joined in their power or helped with the tracking resources since they rule all of Equestria.
I agree, though I still enjoyed Starlight in the role.
Yeah... I'm not writing this story. I already have too many projects on plate.
That was my biggest issue with this episode. Why weren't the Royal Sisters involved! Twilight finds a way to bring back Starswirl and the Princess are like, go have fun with that? Really?! If you go by "The Journal of the Two Sisters" as canon, Starswirl appointed Celestia and Luna AS the rulers of Equestria as will taught them the magic that lead to their cutie marks! And they did not want to help out in his return? Bad move writers! Bad move!
And the gang clearly had enough time to go and ask for the sisters' help too.
They wasted hours trying to find the Pony of Shadow's hiding spot, they could have sent someone to warn the sisters while that was happening.
Wow that would have been a way better use for Princess Luna.
Wow it would have been so much of a better episode. The setup would have been perfect.
I wish they would've used Luna in a more predominant way.
Yes because she doesn’t get much attention from the show though
I feel like she does need to be in the show more, she is best princess.
Hmmm Her roles in the show where she played a big enough part were in......👇
1.) Season 1 premiere
2.) Luna Eclipsed
3.) Sleepless in Ponyville
4.) Princess Twilight sparkle
5.) For Whom the sweetie belle toils
6.) Bloom & Gloom
7.) Do Princesses dream of Magic Sheep
8.) The Cutie Remark
9.) The Crystalling
10.) To where and back again
11.) A royal problem
P.s I don't know if i should have included "Castle Mane-ia" since her Legend is what played a role in RD & AJ's Part of the story.
"Slice of life" since it was the side characters time to shine.
"Hearth's warming Tail" since that technically isn't Luna in a role.
@Frost E Bear 4.) Her role consisted of Turning into Nightmare Moon, Helping to seal Discord originally, Finding the tree of harmony & Getting captured. I was debating whether i should even count what she did as minor role in this episode since her "role" was mainly in the flashbacks that were used to get the Mane 6 to save the tree of harmony. And if they Celestia & Luna hadn't found the tree all the events that came after would never have happened.
8.) This is another episode i was debating to put on here since Technically its Nightmare moon but at the same time Luna turned into nightmare moon in that specific future, was never turned back into Luna by the elements of harmony & she Sent Celestia to the moon thus conquering equestria.
9.) Her role consisted of helping to keep the storm at bay & Helping to keep the crystal heart together. Both of which were important to save the Crystal empire. So i counted it as a minor role.
10.) Luna getting that message to Starlight did help her figure out the situation faster. And it prevented her from going to canterlot to get help from them since going there would have more than likely have just gotten her captured. So i counted it as a minor role.
Josh Blackwell Let play would you rather. 1. Would you rather kiss Pinkie Pie or go on a lovely date with Rainbow Dash? 2. Would you rather try to convince Sunburst that Starlight Glimmer is sexy or study late with Twilight Sparkle? 3. Would you rather see the Cutie Mark Crusaders all grown up or be a teacher at Twilight Sparkle Friendships School? 4. Would you rather ask Fluttershy personal questions or ask why is Derpy Hooves eyes look like that? 5. Would you rather listen to Applejack boring family story or make clothes with Rarity? 6. Would you rather ask Lyra Heartstrings if she love Bon Bon or ask why does Bon Bon get so upset at Lyra Heartstrings most of the time? 7. Would you rather help Spike get a girlfriend or help him find his real parents?
Josh Blackwell Please reply back I wanna know your answers XD.
I believe that starlight is better than Luna in this episode because I don't think there would have been much of a conflict about friendship and what the was right. Yes although Luna is a reformed villian, she is still a princess and I believe that even though she might not have wanted to, she would have to do what is right for the land of Equestria. Twilight lost sight of what friendship is in this episode and I think it helps to have your equal point out what's wrong versus a higher up.
Yeah, sometimes I think Faust wrote this show into a corner when she called it "Friendship is Magic."
Still, all they would have to do is make Stygian pure evil and more powerful and have the conflict manifest in some other way...like Luna and Twilight wanting to help Stygian, but him being too stubborn to accept it. And if they had to force a friendship lesson in their somewhere, maybe it could have involved Twilight's tense relationship with Starswirl. But...this arc would have needed to be a lot longer than just a two-part episode to do it justice and that seems to be a no-no for Western cartoons.
Pretty sure Luna would try to save Stygian anyway.
Especially due to if they allow Stygian to be banished like that, especially after hearing what led him to become this. It will bring up the pain of how Celestia had to forsake Luna for the sake of all of Equestria by sending her to the moon. Luna would be determined to not let this fate happen to Stygian, like finding another way.
Ok
Because hasbro can’t stand how popular Luna is lol. The fandom wouldn’t have been able to handle it😂. But in all seriousness something similar to that thought has crossed my mind a couple times.
Luna could always mentor Stygian
awesome love ❤
I heavily disagree. While it would've been nice to see the sisters interact with beardy-face more, I gotta agree with everyone in the comments. I frankly think we'd had enough of "OH WOE IS ME" Luna. She's already gotten plenty of focus and the episode works just fine as it is.
Not exactly.
She only has like 2 episodes I recall touching on her problems as NMM in a way and that was it.
Luna Eclipsed and the Tantabus episode. That is all iirc.
She didn't get any good focus on any of the finales, just sidelined or just get taken out badly by a bad guy.
I know I'm four years late, but I just found this. I think you missed a key component of why Starlight was there. You claimed that the whole point of her being there was to bring the perspective of a reformed villain who found the power of friendship. This is half-true. A huge part of "Shadow Play" is the idea of idol worship and playing into Twilight's core character flaw of allowing her zealotry about those she looks up to cloud her judgment. With this in mind, it would be very strange for her not to listen to Luna in that moment of being part of the problem. Starlight, on the other hand, isn't someone Twilight had ever idolized or put on a pedestal, so she was having to compete with that sort of influence to talk sense into Twilight. If Luna were in that spot, I think it would have been very strange if Twilight didn't just listen to Luna on the spot and the episode ended with a conversation with Stygian.
I love Luna, i wish she was in season 8.
I don't really remember seeing her in that season at all.
Shes the only Princess to escort Cozy Glow to Tartarus.
Man...I like the episode just fine as it is, but this would have been a great alternate take.
-the fact that I'm an unabashed Luna fanboy has nothing to do with it-
Oh my blob I made the likes to 200 yay