Again, for a beginner like me, you have managed to widen my view of all the things I could one day get completely wrong! Thanks so much for your amazing contributions.
Great stuff Keith, thanks. Have come across the screeming sound with gas burners in industry making copper radiator tubes, we just used to alter the gas and air mixture a little and that stopped the racket. Anyway can't wait for your videos to come up to youtube very enjoyable, again many thanks.
Hi Keith that was an interesting video of trial and error. It's going ing to be interesting, you wouldn't think that there would be such a difference from one burner to another. John
I had a ceramic burner cremate itself once, only it was not the ceramic that went - the metal body managed to un-silver solder itself at the corners so intense was the heat.
I have found the secret for the ceramic burner ,my little story , the vertical steam pressure would only go up to 50 to 60 psi ,then I added a round fence around the burner about 1/2 " above the top of the ceramic , this improved the heating and the pressure goes up to 100 psi.
Almost ..... it would work perfectly if the centre valve inside the block was a better fit ...... but like with most model steam engine governors that I look at, 'Butterfly" valve is a slack fit.
@@keithappleton Ok, i asked because i just saw a thing in what wisualy looked like a Stuart boiler or something similar, wich hade two cornstalk shaped cheramic pieces hanging on a metalrod and windled with what looked like coiled Kanthal wire connected to points on an insultion plate in the back, where the gasburners normaly sits, it looked pretty old and i had newer seen that on this type of boiler before. (unfortunatly the price of the set was way ower my budget, but probably cheap compared to a new set).
Yes , I have made these in the past, but health & safety aspects prevent me showing how to do it. A steam condenser would make the tank too hot. All you need is a bowl of lukewarm water.
I don't know of any restriction on the use of propane on model boilers, indoor or outdoor. Many locos burn propane, in fact Train Mountain is now propane only due to the fire danger. I have an indoor steam plant that uses the little butane cylinders but I much prefer to run it on a 20# propane cylinder same as my silver soldering gear.
lol love the musical burner, when you move it in the sound reminds me of a boiler at work from years ago.... the draft being caused didn't get enough air around the outside make up ring so it tried to drawn it thru the burner which changed the flame and caused a howl. another affect you also see in your flame can be caused by sound. work on by physicist Heinrich Rubens showed how sound waves also change and affect how gas pressure flows in a tube burner or in this case the flat face of the burner. question i didn't happen to notice if you mentioned it or not when you insert burner and it starts to howl .... if you turn down gas flow does the howl diminish or go away and remain burning . I'd almost say from way it act the slots on outside could use some milling to widen them a bit to allow more air flow around outside so then you could insert it all the way in proper just a possible thought
that's what i assumed it might do... sounds like (pardon the pun) the burner is acting like a reed thru the slots. its airflow is basically not high enough thru slots for the draft draw so what extra can flow in has to be sucked in thru the air mix orifice and burner causing the visible change in flame and the harmonic resonance if i might suggest mill or file the 6 slots wider and also into a \_/ style a form and soften the edges of slots with a radius to reduce any drag or sharp edge that can also induce a resonance..... please tune to "B" flat
Keith, a warm water bath ought to prevent freezeups in the butane canister. Isn't the orifice for butane different than that of propane? Why can't you use propane for steam boilers in England?
Yes I use the exhaust to keep the tank warm, but some of the regulations on model steam engines & boilers etc are quite strange in the UK - Health & Safety gone mad ......
Who told them this, think about all of the caravans with 13 kg gas bottles most of which are propane. You can pull more gas out of a propane bottle than butane quicker before the cooling slows it down.
I think the howling is caused by the fire trying to suck in more air to stay lit. As you noticed, when the howling starts, you notice the tips of the flame aren't as sharp / almost go away. I think if there was a hole drilled into the metal, it could allow enough air to be sucked in & not cause the howling once the burner is stuffed all the way in.
Make a manifold and run 2 or 3 gas cylinders at the same time, it eliminates the chilling substantially, I run my propane forge like that, due to freezing pressure drop. I now have the cylinders outside with no problems in the winter when the temp gets to below minus 10C regularly (I live up a mountain in France).
That's a great idea. I think I will just use a much larger gas tank, as the gas consumption on a model steam boiler burner is small - plus a larger gas supply is cheaper than buying these small cans .....
Hi Keith! I´m trying firing a Gemma ( 0-4-0 tender engine in 5" gauge) with one 3 wicks propane burner.This burner provides enough heat to get 30 psi in about 8 or 10 minutes but when opening the regulator, the engine runs for about 10 minutes until the pressure gauge goes to almost 0. The engine runs over rolling roads ( the same you use ). There are no steam leaks anywhere and the engine is lubricated properly. The particular thing is that I´ve put between the wicks and the fire tubes a deflector to avoid the flames get in touch directly with the fire tubes. I did that because my little OS Krauss has one deflector too when firing she with propane but she produces steam with no problem with this deflector! Could be this deflector the cause of the failure in my Gemma? Could be damaged the fire tubes if the flames go directly over them?. I hope you know what the matter is because I´m really worried about it.Than you and good music!Kind regards, Carlos
@@keithappleton Thank you, Keith.Do you think the flames going directly over the fire tubes could damaged them? keep on swingin´and kind regards,Carlos
@@keithappleton Hi keith! Finally I´ve discovered what my problem was in getting enough heat for my Gemma. Since I was using a butane reductor with my propane bottle, this reductor cut the pressure at 23 mlbars ( not enough for gemma´s needings ). Now, after using a propane reductor which is allowed to support 37 mlbars, the 3 lighters work OK and the engine gets in 5 minutes 15 psi, in 7 minutes 30 psi and in 9 minutes we have 60 psi. Now, when the regulator is open, the boiler steams pretty well reaching more than 60 psi. You can´t imagine the happiness I´m feeling now!Thank you for your support, it´s a pleasure reading your experiences.Kind regards from Madrid,Carlos( musician also)
To help with the chilling of the gas canister and loss or pressure, try putting it in a shallow pan of warm water. Eventually, it will chill the water, but you will get a longer run time than just having the gas canister in the open air.
Propane is a huge molecule, and it takes time for the oxygen to bond before it should be burned. Most model burners mix the oxygen at the burner, which is far too late. Look at a grill or your furnace, you will see that the oxygen is mixed about a foot away from the burner, and many also have a pan to help mix the propane and the oxygen. If your bottle is being frozen, you are trying to make up for the incomplete mixing by pushing too much propane. The howling comes from resonance in the input gas tube. Outdoor fire pit makers sell tubes to fix the whistling.
Instead of a water bath, or multi-can manifold, what about fabricating a warming holder for the can? A short length of exhaust pipe soldered to the back of the holder could provide a bit of warmth without letting it get too warm.
Keith, Have you used kerosene blowlamp-type burners in the past? I find them quite useful for small boilers like the one you have here. They do make some noise, but not overmuch ... Paddy
Hi Keith, first of all: congratulations for these GREAT instructional videos. I´m a newcomer relating with gas burners and now I´d like to fire my little Krauss ( 3 1/2" gauge from O.S. Engines ) with gas. I´ll use the burner O.S. designed for this loco but I´d like ask you if burning propane gas only could be too much heat for the fire box and - maybe - I could cause damages in this part of the engine. It would be better to use a mix of butane and propane? Also, I´ll use a small piece of steel just to protect the fire tubes from the flames. That´s all by now, thank you very much and - once again - congratulations. Best regards, Carlos
I wouldn't say that there would be too much heat, it's just model boat club policy in my area to disallow Propane owing to its higher working pressure.
Wow! A piece of equipment from the days when we still made things in Sweden. Today we just cut sombody else's hair and clean each others toilet. They call it the new economy.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
Again, for a beginner like me, you have managed to widen my view of all the things I could one day get completely wrong! Thanks so much for your amazing contributions.
Great stuff Keith, thanks. Have come across the screeming sound with gas burners in industry making copper radiator tubes, we just used to alter the gas and air mixture a little
and that stopped the racket. Anyway can't wait for your videos to come up to youtube very enjoyable, again many thanks.
Maybe try cutting the slots in the back of the ceramic burner bigger to increase the airflow and change the harmonics
Hi Keith that was an interesting video of trial and error. It's going ing to be interesting, you wouldn't think that there would be such a difference from one burner to another. John
I had a ceramic burner cremate itself once, only it was not the ceramic that went - the metal body managed to un-silver solder itself at the corners so intense was the heat.
I have found the secret for the ceramic burner ,my little story , the vertical steam pressure would only go up to 50 to 60 psi ,then I added a round fence around the burner about 1/2 " above the top of the ceramic , this improved the heating and the pressure goes up to 100 psi.
Thank you, that's very interesting, I will try it. }:-)))
Bonjour Keith,
Is the Watt's regulator really functional ?
Amicalement, Raphaël
Almost ..... it would work perfectly if the centre valve inside the block was a better fit ...... but like with most model steam engine governors that I look at, 'Butterfly" valve is a slack fit.
I must admit that I thought the knock might comes from the cross-head slide as it does come most adjacent to one end of the slide bars.
Very nice presentation, thanks. Peter
Great videos!
Do You know where i can find more information about elecric heaters for old burners?
No idea sorry .....
@@keithappleton Ok, i asked because i just saw a thing in what wisualy looked like a Stuart boiler or something similar, wich hade two cornstalk shaped cheramic pieces hanging on a metalrod and windled with what looked like coiled Kanthal wire connected to points on an insultion plate in the back, where the gasburners normaly sits, it looked pretty old and i had newer seen that on this type of boiler before.
(unfortunatly the price of the set was way ower my budget, but probably cheap compared to a new set).
Could a condenser be fabricated that would hold the gas canister and keep it warm?
Yes , I have made these in the past, but health & safety aspects prevent me showing how to do it. A steam condenser would make the tank too hot. All you need is a bowl of lukewarm water.
Good job,,,
And , thank you again for your great videos. ..
I don't know of any restriction on the use of propane on model boilers, indoor or outdoor. Many locos burn propane, in fact Train Mountain is now propane only due to the fire danger. I have an indoor steam plant that uses the little butane cylinders but I much prefer to run it on a 20# propane cylinder same as my silver soldering gear.
I wonder if increasing the length of the exhaust chimney would eliminate the harmonics or change the pitch. A most interesting video, Mr. Appleton!
I think it would probably drop the pitch :-))))
lol love the musical burner, when you move it in the sound reminds me of a boiler at work from years ago.... the draft being caused didn't get enough air around the outside make up ring so it tried to drawn it thru the burner which changed the flame and caused a howl.
another affect you also see in your flame can be caused by sound. work on by physicist Heinrich Rubens showed how sound waves also change and affect how gas pressure flows in a tube burner or in this case the flat face of the burner.
question i didn't happen to notice if you mentioned it or not when you insert burner and it starts to howl .... if you turn down gas flow does the howl diminish or go away and remain burning . I'd almost say from way it act the slots on outside could use some milling to widen them a bit to allow more air flow around outside so then you could insert it all the way in proper just a possible thought
If I reduce the pressure the howling stops but so does the steam raising capability of the burner . . . . .
that's what i assumed it might do... sounds like (pardon the pun) the burner is acting like a reed thru the slots. its airflow is basically not high enough thru slots for the draft draw so what extra can flow in has to be sucked in thru the air mix orifice and burner causing the visible change in flame and the harmonic resonance if i might suggest mill or file the 6 slots wider and also into a \_/ style a form and soften the edges of slots with a radius to reduce any drag or sharp edge that can also induce a resonance..... please tune to "B" flat
Go ahead Keith play us a wee tune on the boiler. Show us your artistic talent
Keith, a warm water bath ought to prevent freezeups in the butane canister. Isn't the orifice for butane different than that of propane? Why can't you use propane for steam boilers in England?
Yes I use the exhaust to keep the tank warm, but some of the regulations on model steam engines & boilers etc are quite strange in the UK - Health & Safety gone mad ......
Keith has got this wrong, there are no regulations on the fuel for boilers in the UK.
Strange ..... at my local model boat club everyone was told that Propane couldn't be used for firing model steam boats ......
Who told them this, think about all of the caravans with 13 kg gas bottles most of which are propane. You can pull more gas out of a propane bottle than butane quicker before the cooling slows it down.
I wonder if it is a "club rule" that over time became "law"?
I think the howling is caused by the fire trying to suck in more air to stay lit. As you noticed, when the howling starts, you notice the tips of the flame aren't as sharp / almost go away. I think if there was a hole drilled into the metal, it could allow enough air to be sucked in & not cause the howling once the burner is stuffed all the way in.
Yes, I think you are probably right ..... although it's quicker to just move the burner 1/4 of an inch away from the flue tube :-))))
Definitely! Was just a guess too. It reminds me of a bunsen burner, where there's an adjustable metal slide on the bottom that controls airflow.
Keith Appleton see if u can put the canister in some water so u won't lose pressure wile in use
Make a manifold and run 2 or 3 gas cylinders at the same time, it eliminates the chilling substantially, I run my propane forge like that, due to freezing pressure drop. I now have the cylinders outside with no problems in the winter when the temp gets to below minus 10C regularly (I live up a mountain in France).
That's a great idea. I think I will just use a much larger gas tank, as the gas consumption on a model steam boiler burner is small - plus a larger gas supply is cheaper than buying these small cans .....
Can you lag the gas tank to stop the chilling of the gas
no - it is ineffective.
Hi Keith! I´m trying firing a Gemma ( 0-4-0 tender engine in 5" gauge) with one 3 wicks propane burner.This burner provides enough heat to get 30 psi in about 8 or 10 minutes but when opening the regulator, the engine runs for about 10 minutes until the pressure gauge goes to almost 0. The engine runs over rolling roads ( the same you use ). There are no steam leaks anywhere and the engine is lubricated properly. The particular thing is that I´ve put between the wicks and the fire tubes a deflector to avoid the flames get in touch directly with the fire tubes. I did that because my little OS Krauss has one deflector too when firing she with propane but she produces steam with no problem with this deflector! Could be this deflector the cause of the failure in my Gemma? Could be damaged the fire tubes if the flames go directly over them?. I hope you know what the matter is because I´m really worried about it.Than you and good music!Kind regards, Carlos
It sounds like gas chilling to me - a gas pressure drop as it evaporates inside the gas tank..
@@keithappleton Thank you, Keith.Do you think the flames going directly over the fire tubes could damaged them? keep on swingin´and kind regards,Carlos
@@keithappleton Hi keith! Finally I´ve discovered what my problem was in getting enough heat for my Gemma. Since I was using a butane reductor with my propane bottle, this reductor cut the pressure at 23 mlbars ( not enough for gemma´s needings ). Now, after using a propane reductor which is allowed to support 37 mlbars, the 3 lighters work OK and the engine gets in 5 minutes 15 psi, in 7 minutes 30 psi and in 9 minutes we have 60 psi. Now, when the regulator is open, the boiler steams pretty well reaching more than 60 psi. You can´t imagine the happiness I´m feeling now!Thank you for your support, it´s a pleasure reading your experiences.Kind regards from Madrid,Carlos( musician also)
Sometimes a choke on the air intake stops the howling. At least on Gauge One steam loco's
To help with the chilling of the gas canister and loss or pressure, try putting it in a shallow pan of warm water. Eventually, it will chill the water, but you will get a longer run time than just having the gas canister in the open air.
Thank you, I am aware of most of the problem solutions and will get to them in the fullness of time :-))))
Love your videos!
Perhaps you could avoid that howling by hanging some kind of auxiliary chamber off the side of it in order to bring the resonant frequency down.
Of course, just mounting it slightly rearward as you did would also work.
Propane is a huge molecule, and it takes time for the oxygen to bond before it should be burned. Most model burners mix the oxygen at the burner, which is far too late. Look at a grill or your furnace, you will see that the oxygen is mixed about a foot away from the burner, and many also have a pan to help mix the propane and the oxygen. If your bottle is being frozen, you are trying to make up for the incomplete mixing by pushing too much propane.
The howling comes from resonance in the input gas tube. Outdoor fire pit makers sell tubes to fix the whistling.
Instead of a water bath, or multi-can manifold, what about fabricating a warming holder for the can? A short length of exhaust pipe soldered to the back of the holder could provide a bit of warmth without letting it get too warm.
I dare not cover any of the obvious solutions involving heat owing to the Health & Safety implications . . . . . }:-)))
Keith Appleton That is a shame. A steam warmed canister holder would be a fascinating addition to the steam plant! ;)
Keith,
Have you used kerosene blowlamp-type burners in the past?
I find them quite useful for small boilers like the one you have here.
They do make some noise, but not overmuch ...
Paddy
Yes, I have an old kerosene burner but that roars a bit too . . .
Hi Keith, first of all: congratulations for these GREAT instructional videos. I´m a newcomer relating with gas burners and now I´d like to fire my little Krauss ( 3 1/2" gauge from O.S. Engines ) with gas. I´ll use the burner O.S. designed for this loco but I´d like ask you if burning propane gas only could be too much heat for the fire box and - maybe - I could cause damages in this part of the engine. It would be better to use a mix of butane and propane?
Also, I´ll use a small piece of steel just to protect the fire tubes from the flames.
That´s all by now, thank you very much and - once again - congratulations.
Best regards, Carlos
I wouldn't say that there would be too much heat, it's just model boat club policy in my area to disallow Propane owing to its higher working pressure.
OK, thank you. Regards, Carlos
Was that Maxsteam or MatSteam for the burner?
I'm enjoying the build.
thanks.
Maccsteam
Thanks Keith!
Wow! A piece of equipment from the days when we still made things in Sweden. Today we just cut sombody else's hair and clean each others toilet. They call it the new economy.