Vertical Firetube Boiler Build!
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- This episode on Blondihacks, I'm starting work on a vertical firetube boiler! Exclusive videos, drawings, models & plans available on Patreon!
/ quinndunki
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Books that I used in my design process:
Model Boilers and Boiler Making (out of print, still available used) : amzn.to/3ejYeG1
Ceramic Burners for Model Steam Boilers : amzn.to/3dxZ56P
Building Small Boilers For Gas Firing (out of print, available as eBook from UK) : www.camdenmin....
Model Boiler regulations in some areas : www.homemodele...
Pressure vessels are dangerous. This video is for entertainment purposes only, and you should not use any information contained herein to build your own pressure vessel. It is your responsibility to know what you are doing, and to conform to all local laws and regulations.
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The exciting theme in the comments on this one is armchair pressure engineers arguing about the wording I used in simplifying the explanation of wall thicknesses. Yes, yes, hoop stresses and burst pressures and all that. I wasn’t speaking about how to calculate wall thickness. I specifically said to go read the books for that. I was speaking about how to buy the right wall thickness. However my word choice made everyone Super Internet Mad. Truth is, none of it matters here anyway because model boilers are relatively low pressure and built with safety margins of around 4000%. We are not designing undersea pipelines here. Please relax and save your typing on that stuff. What I’ve said here on the subject is quoted directly from boiler design books and is sufficiently correct for this context.
If only you could scavenge the energy of activated comment warriors, you’d need no gas boiler for your steam ;)
Don't read the comments! Especially this one!
On the Aluminum/Aluminium Bronze. If these items need to be silver soldered I have serious doubts about it working. One thing I used to have to make was split plain bronze bearings for stamping presses. These would be roughed out with enough stock to finish. Then split on a horizontal mill. The split bearing halves would then be silver soldered together for finish machining. This was with 660 Bronze. Ampco (aluminum bronze) would need to be tig welded.
There is but one comment for any BlondiHacks video, "YAY!!!! A NEW BLONDIHACKS VIDEO!!!"
@@mumblbeebee6546 That would likely be enough surplus hot air to meet the energy needs of a small country😂😂
A pressurized water nuclear reactor is the best way to make steam. I will be expecting a video on this soon...
Definitely the best way to ensure that the boiler inspectors show up promptly.
I'm sure in 2025 uranium is available at every corner drugstore, but in 2021 it's a little hard to come by.
@@WitoldWitkowski you can order it in Amazon. (Technically it's ore, but close enough)
@@tyrannosaurusimperator Just need to build some enrichment machinery. I'm sure the authorities wouldn't have any issue with such a hobby project.
A nuclear reactor is a basic pot boiler as well, pot boilers are great if you have a heat source that doesn't need any oxygen and can run inside a pot of superheated boiling water, like an electric heating element or the proverbial spicy rocks.
0:28 At first I thought the large copper tube was solid bar and thought "Wow, Quinn is REALLY strong to be moving that thing around like that."
Same here. First, I thought of strength. Second, I thought of cost.
@@simonhoey6575 Funny, I thought of cost first lol
Her arms are actually fairly thick and you can see the muscle shifting around when her hands move. Also she handles the portable bandsaw pretty easily. Quinn is probably strong enough to startle people who don't know her hobbies.
Making these concepts extremely digestible is a true art. I definitely grasped this idea after watching this. Thank you!
I have never had any interest in steam engines but now that I know I can force some official to come check out my toy boiler every year I will have to reconsider.
They don't do it for free.
s/force/pay/
Being a mechanical engineer and a Navy Nuc....love this stuff! Thank you for gathering and presenting a vast quantity of information in an accurate, engaging, and cogent manner. Spot on! Looking forward to the rest.
I’m stoked to see a new series!
😂👍
Paint drying versus waterboiling, there is so much excitment on RUclips 😊 greetings from Amsterdam
It could be worse. It could be golf
That weird patina you're looking at is from the rollers on the tubing cutter which compress the copper and whatever oxides and oils are on the surface (and/or on the rollers) as the tool is tightened then rotated around the tube. My large tubing cutter has 4 rollers and the round cutting blade for example. It's completely normal.
Just discovering this series. I'm a boilermaker, just about to finish a retube project on a horizontal firetube boiler that burns fuel oil (basically diesel). Looking forward to binging the full series!
Really looking forward to this series.
Quinn, you sometimes rag on those cellulose guys about woodworkers' tolerances. Now we get to learn about boiler makers' tolerances. :)
Use the phosphor bronze instead of the aluminium bronze. It machines better, and is easier to silver solder.
Maybe do a couple of tests, silver soldering the two different types to some copper.
Thanks for the tip!
They only sold 2 kinds of folding knives in the ship’s store: Case, and Buck. I had to have me a Buck Folding Hunter, nothing cut through steel reinforced valve packing and could still shave me like that Buck. We below decks engineers always squabbled about which was the better knife, but that Buck- with solid Macassar Ebony handles and polished brass bolsters just looked so sexy, so much more refined than that mediocre cow horn handle of the Case with it’s stamped steel trimmings; it just looked like a barefoot country cousin next to a Buck, or so I thought. Underway we’d just about daily repack leaking glands, the strategy was to wait until the chief or senior petty officer left our hole, then we’d cut in the steam to blow out the old packing after loosening the studs- that pig tail corkscrew they gave us to manually pull out the packing sat at the bottom of the tool box, never to see the light of day, everybody took cover, it was like a hand grenade going off with bits of packing as shrapnel. And so it went, steaming 600 p.s.i. Babcock and Wilcox “M” type marine boilers with 850 degree controlled superheat pushing out 60,000 shaft horsepower as a 20 year old kid, but an emergency relighting off the back wall after a burner failure during a flank bell using Navy Special Fuel Oil while on a fire mission at Yankee Station- now that’s a story for another day. ☺
This is going to be a great series. I like this better than kits.
You could mimic Clickspring and melt old outdoor water spigots for the brass. Pour into a mold and proceed to machine them to whatever kind of fitting you want.
That boring stylesheet part, it's cool! At least for the audiences like me. :) I love to see how you come up with designs and such.
And wow, apart from the imperial system, the US and UK even mean different things. Neat! :)
Everyone thinks 'imperial' is one system. Historically, almost every country had similar but different measurements.
The only reasons why there's only one imperial system left is there's only one major country sticking with it, and all the units are based on metric now anyway.
(The things you learn growing up around engineers)
WATT! Brits know something about steam. Whooo whooo 🇬🇧🏴
I’d go so far as to say Brits invented everything known about steam too. 😄
Always worth speaking to a local plumbing co . they often have a cutoff pile and might do you a deal on the bigger pipe
Plumbing company or supply houses
McMaster-Carr. Calling them often reveals that not everything they sell is listed in their catalog or website! I speak from experience!
Most enjoyable, even more so when it's a knowledgable lady. Subbed...
While there’s zero chance I’ll ever build one, it’s fun and interesting watching you design and build it. 👊
Very nice, VFT FTW! (Vertical Fire Tube For The Win!). If it's a boat in the US that is not for hire and less then 40ft it is exempt from steam equipment inspection, this has been codified in the US Coast Guard Code of Regulations. Progressive boat insurance didn't care about the fire in the deck equipment, they only cared about the top speed of the vessel. My boiler is a custom 200psi ASME Code&Stamped weld steel VFT, Mine is true Flex fuel: wood(possibly carbon-neutral), coal, propane, kerosene, and still hoping for that permit for plutonium...
Do you roll or silver solder your fire tube ends into the end plates? Do you have tube stays in the interior to prevent tube sagging causing stress at the end plates? Is this a single or two pass heat exchange? I'm a retired steam power plant engineer who started as a steam fireman in an atomized coal plant generating electricity & superheated steam to power turbine driven boiler water feed water pumps and induced draft fans.
All that will be covered
Hello Quinn,
Fabulous research... well done... I feel sure that many people will get all steamed up when they see the price of copper... See you next week.
Take care.
Paul,,
Spread sheets are the best. I really enjoyed the detail you went to in this video
I am impressed with your thoroughness of research. I learned a lot.
A nice interesting subject particularly as I'm collecting my materials together to make a small two inch boiler for the first time
Wow, watching water boil, that is more exciting than watching Keith Appleton's paint dry.
I don't remember much about thermo (steam cycles, enthalpy, etc.) at my stage in life, but I did make a B in thermo at Georgia Tech sometime in the late 80's, and I was rather proud to get a B in that class. (AE88). First day of class Dr. Winer asks, "how many ME majors do we have? OK, and how many AEs?" The class was mostly AE. So then he says something like, "Well, I think I can bump up my standards for this class." There was some nervous laughter as we tried to reconcile flattery with anxiety. The subject was actually rather interesting. Somehow we proved that a "heat engine" could not be more than X% efficient. Maybe 65%, I don't recall. Recently I found some Cassier's Engineering magazines online (archive.org, etc.) and even bought a volume of reprints on Amazon from early 1900s. Those turn of the century articles and pictures on ever larger and improved steam engines are fascinating. Big iron! Advertisements are equally enjoyable. Sorry to ramble...
I like boilerrmakers with scotch! So disappointing to find that this wasn't a Scotch boiler. Excellent video. Interesting approach to first steam. Never apologize for English Imperial, trust HRH and carry on.
I would check that aluminium bronze. I don't think it can be silver soldered.
It's possible, although flux selection may be difficult based on the exact alloys being used. AWS has a good overview: app.aws.org/wj/2004/02/046/
BINGO!
I have been struggling to remember why we have a lot of aluminium bronze pipe lying around my miniature train club that only gets used as surveying stakes.
In my experience Ampco doesn't silver solder worth a damn.
www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=www.ampcometal.com/&ved=2ahUKEwj2g_3YhL7wAhUIKawKHXN4CZYQFjANegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw2Af6jAcGp0LZaduNmFAbMu
Ampco pretty much wrote the book on Aluminum Bronze. In fact their first alloy they brought to market was for copper alloy cutting tools.
Now how does one tag Quinn so we can be sure she sees this thread?
@Blondihacks I'll try this method
@@jeffarmstrong1308 What a life you lead. I wish I was part of a miniature train club...
I am an European and, since I have nothing to do with it professionally ;), I am just amazed with all kinds of trade measurements: 'gauges' for the wires, various pressure units, 'ounces' different for solids and liquids, light sources not called by wattage but by 'given names' and now, 'schedules' for copper pipes, WOW I imagine it is all to preserve the trade secrets?
In the states, pretty much all pipe, regardless of whether it’s steel, copper, pvc etc., is defined by schedule, which deals with wall thickness. Steel pipe for general use is typically sch. 40, but for higher pressure or more “meat “ left under the threads, sch. 80 is more common. The numbers do go lower and higher than those examples!
Most measurement/category systems are built over time by a trade for what is most useful to that trade. It can seem arbitrary - but that's to an outsider, it often doesn't make sense until you are in the thick of it. Sometimes it really is tradition and completely pointless, and sometimes its something that's necessary but hard to tell until you do some reasearch and see how they got there in the first place.
Its one of the reasons I get so annoyed with metric snobs. Duodecimal systems (like the imperial inch) can actually be SUPER useful when you are working proportionally/fractionally and can develop a lot more natural, workable whole numbers as opposed to repeating garbage you can get from base-10. Typography is really best dealt with in Picas/Points - it just makes more sense because the scale and stuff you are working with. Different thread types have drastically different purposes.
Try opening the box on how different scales and systems are developed - its fascinating and eye opening. So much of it is based on making the tradesman think about things the right way.
@@pacefactor I totally agree!
@@pacefactor Very interesting. Thank you.
I've realised that water and similar tubing we use as well as their threading is in fact in inches. 1", 1/2", etc. Same for socket tool attachments 1/2", 3/8", 1/4" though their business ends are in mm. Similar with tires: millimetres AND inches.
I can agree that metric feels sometimes forced.
@@pacefactor That's a really important comment. So many of the trades developed independently of each other when there were no uniform measurement systems. The first people to forge lengths of pipe in quantity, or weave cloth or put water in a flume or whatever had to invent their own measurement systems adapted to the factors they needed to quantify and the measuring instruments available.
The units that were most useful became the customary units that annoy us today. Yet in many trades those units still make a lot of sense, particularly when functional legacy systems need routine attention and new components must connect up with old ones. Consequently the manufacture of parts, fittings, or components designed to comply with industrial standards specified around customary units are likely to remain with us a hundred years hence.
I can easily manage to drive my car at 105 instead of 65mph, or buy 0.75 liters and call it a "fifth" of Bourbon. But if I shear off a 1/4 x 20 bolt, that's what I have to have to replace it and ain't nobody ever going to try to manufacture one denominated "6.25mm x .7874."
I for one really enjoy learning about the math and science behind boiler design, and you've done a great job explaining it!
Full steam ahead towards the new project!
"RUclips Gold" (while immersed in oceans of math). Classic! :)
some of us LIKE Math based youtube channels ...
I think "RUclips Copper" is a better term here.
Not only the exact same JET machine purchased twenty years ago, but I also have a Stuart vertical single expansion, vertical boiler, and a bunch of unmachined valves I bought ten years ago, along with all the specialized taps, and dies it called for. I've decided that if I ever build a steam engine to make one at a useable size, and need to sell off my long delayed project.
I don't want to nitpick but around 14:34 I think I noticed a production typo: you wrote "🙄 spreadsheets" but I'm sure you meant to use the 😍 emoji
There's RUclips gold in thum thar hills
That burgundy looks real good accented by the brass.
Yes indeed.
Cool now this going to be good! I’m looking forward to seeing this boiler made. 🇨🇦
ME steam enthusiast here so this is very interesting, don't apologise for all the details as knowledge commands respect!
FYI, you can buy copper pipe in different thicknesses from ME suppliers in the UK (SWG).
Looking forward to more videos, cheers!
I thought that mis-pronounced bar was the largest stogie I had ever seen.
I am VERY Looking forward to this video.
^_^ I was not dissappointed. Even the oceans of math was excellent! Spreadsheets help the world go round.
Now I am looking forward to this SERIES \0/
Another series of let's go on an adventure with Quinn.
Standard brass can be used for your fittings which I used on my loco, so long as, as you said it is not in direct contact with the flame because as you also said dezincification. As for certification it can be very tricky because it can be subject to volume, pressure, etc. In the case of your boiler, which is to large for clubs without certification, can be ran privately at home without it. As for wall thickness of your fire tubes there fine. As a boilermaker/ welding inspector and in-service inspector, I have inspected heat exchangers tubes that operate 1000 PSI. that only had a 1/8" wall thickness, and most of that is so the tube didn't sag, however they were only 3/4" O.D.. As for the boiler shell, if should be fine but just look for "ANY" deformation during your hydrostatic test. To me it appears you are doing fine and did your research.
Hi Quinn,
Another great video! Thanks. A couple comments.
Use that aluminum/aluminium/Al bronze for bearings and such. Depending on the particular alloy and the flux, my experience with silver brazing Al bronze ranges from difficult to impossible.
Quinn, I do the same thing that you do when designing things: Build a spreadsheet so that one can really see what is going on as the design changes/evolves, or when I make trade-offs or optimizations in the design. This has worked well for me for projects ranging from boilers, to designing the ampacity requirements for my home, shop, and barn (the inspector loved the detailed analysis, and it proved that a 200 amp service was adequate when he originally thought it should be 300 to 400 amp), to designing bass reflex speakers, etc.
Large sizes of copper pipe are available in the Midwestern US states from the "big box" store, Menards. They can obtain DWV in standard 'nominal' sizes up to 6" (6.125" OD actual size) and types K, L, and M in standard nominal sizes up to 8" (8.125" OD actual size). However, in the larger sizes in which we are interested for model boilers, they are only available in full 20-foot sticks. And, no amount of preparation really gets you past the sticker shock. E.g., 4" DWV is US$650 and 8" type M is US$4,350!!! That's US$217.50 per foot. The only way I see that this is workable is if a group of people design an 8" boiler for each to build and then all split the cost of a full stick.
If someone orders a stick of copper pipe, regardless of from whom, specify on the order that no dents are allowed and that at purchaser's sole option, if dented, the supplier will discount one foot, for every dent, else the pipe will be returned. E.g., if there are three dents, the supplier should only charge you for 20-3 = 17 feet of pipe. Dents with 'crumple' zones DRASTICALLY reduce the working and burst pressure of thin walled tubes (pipe). Do not attempt to build a boiler that includes a significant dent in the shell unless you know what you are doing and correctly engineer for the defect.
The Copper Development Association, CDA, has very useful explanations and tables for working pressure and burst pressure of copper pipe from DWV through type K at various working temperatures for annealed and hard drawn pipe. Copper pipe is not commercially available in the annealed state larger than nominal size 2" (2.125" OD actual size). However, when we silver braze hard drawn copper pipe, we raise the temperature sufficiently to anneal it. These tables can be found in the text of: www.copper.org/applications/plumbing/cth/design-installation/cth_3design_burst.html
Kozo Hiraoka (affectionately known by the honorific, Kozo-san) wrote an article, "Safety of Copper Boilers" that first appeared in _Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading_, AKA _Live Steam Magazine_. This article was incorporated as an appendix in Kozo-san's book, "Building the New Shay, a 1920s Shay in 3/4" Scale". I cannot recommend strongly enough, the value of Kozo-san's article/appendix on this subject. The New Shay also has appendices on constructing safety valves, the use of O-rings in live steam, etc. These and the other appendices alone are worth the price of the book. Then, you also have the entire construction series for the model Shay locomotive. The book is available from Village Press for US$50 plus shipping and also at Amazon and some other booksellers.
Based on the CDA tables and Kozo-san's work, your 4" boiler shell could be safely built using DWV with a wall thickness of 0.058". Note, the wall thickness of copper pipe is a function of the type (K, L, M, or DWV) and the nominal diameter. In fact, with that wall thickness, for a 4" boiler shell, one could have a working pressure of just over 95 PSI. Having said this, please read the article/appendix and the CDA website prior to such construction. This comment isn't a design article.
For various sound engineering reasons, Kozo-san argues that the rule of thumb "Hydro test model boilers at twice the design pressure." is inadequate for copper boilers. For instance, he argues that for a 60 PSI rated boiler, the test pressure should be 140 PSI and a 100 PSI rated boiler should be tested at 275 PSI. This non-linearity is a result of the decreasing strength of annealed copper at increasing temperature (the temperature increases as the steam pressure increases).
I am embarrassed that here in the USA we still use what many people refer to as "imperial units", but which are correctly known as US Customary Units. I typically do engineering work in the MKS system, then if necessary convert to customary units. My only consolation in this entire mess is that ALL US Customary units are defined in terms of the metric MKS system.
Sorry for this long epistle!
Be well & Best regards,
Gottfried
And you've answered sooooo many of my boiler questions! I've wanted to make a boiler since I was a kid, I just couldn't find good information. Wohoooo!
Congratulations! you made me interested in a thing i couldn't care less before. That is a feat in itself. and i also understood everything (also wow because i am an electician by trade not a machinist). I started to watch this specific video to kill time while my child sleeps, and just ate up your explanations.
Thanks Quin.
Very nice explanation and work as always. I would like to build engines myself, but also a decent boiler to drive it.
This helps me allot.
Always amazed by the study and research you put in your projects. Great vid as always. 👍👍👍
Hi folks. Boiler testing regs are a complex subject. Do not underestimate it. In the UK the limit for mandatory annual testing by a certified and registered boiler tester is 3 bar litres and above. That is close to 45 x 61 = 2745 psi-cu inches. We have another reg about CE marking and of course the limits are different for that! As Quinn says all model rail societies here insist all steam boiler locomotives run on public tracks are tested and certified with supporting signed off and witnessed paperwork regardless of size. I'm sure Quinn will cover boiler and safety valve testing in due course. Basically you are building a bomb, which is why the regs exist. If a boiler bursts under pressure the water content immediately flashes into steam expanding by a factor of around 1,400 times. Multiply the cylinder inside surface area by the pressure to get an inkling of the forces you have to contain. Also have a look at a few steam locomotive boiler explosion videos or photos to set your mind on the right track (!) Have fun, but please, do take care. BobUK.
Another benefit of the wet firebox design is more efficient steam production. Solid fuel and oil fires give off a lot more radiant heat. Heat transfer from radiant heat is much greater than that of convection. Most of the steam produced, in locomotive boilers for example, is in the firebox area. The tubes are an added feature to benefit from the heat in the flue gasses...
Great build and awesome job at clearly explaining a lot of the principles for the layperson.
Good stuff! My Grandfather had a stationary boiler ticket here in Christchurch New Zealand and in his later years worked at a local hospital where the had 2 English built Cochran gas fired vertical boilers. It had 4 racks of burner heads which swung from underneath for lighting, there was an individual jet for each tube, looking forward to seeing you build your boiler!
Quinn the suggestion that you were considering using aluminium bronze worried me. I had a vague memory of it being a problem many years ago but I coulsn't quite remember what that was.
So I asked on an Australian model engineering live steam forum I am a member of.
Several have tried to silver-solder aluminium bronze (without knowing that it what was at first) to copper. It worked but the aluminium bronze component became full of holes and looked like a bit of typical Tom and Jerry cheese ie; full of holes. After a few days the joint had corroded to where it could be levered apart. One bloke said that he learnt from this to identify his material before use.
The difficulty associated with silver soldering aluminium bronze is caused by the aluminiun and the removal of its oxide. That is the function of the flux. generally speaking if the aluminium content is less than 2% it is still possible to acheve a good Joint strength just using conventional flux like EF. As the content of aluminium increases so does the the need to remove the aluminium oxide, a special flux is recommended this special flux has a higher content of chloride. One suggestion is to make your own by adding 25% by weight of kitchen salt (sodium chloride) to conventional flux and use in the same manner. Remove the flux residues in the same way. Go to sales@ cupalloys.co.nz they have the fluxes you need.
EasyFlo No 2 and the appropriate flux and propane burner heating. It can be done with appropriate fluxes, but most have not succeeded. Several have tried with the recommended fluxes. Most say don't do it unless you are 100% certain you are getting a good joint - it's just not worth risking possible insurance claims.
Oh I will join for the whole series, I finished This Old Tony's videos so now I need to binge watch all of yours!
Looking forward to it. I have ordered a book on model boilers that is being reprinted. I want to build one also so I will be following your design carefully.
I just watched the video on your old boiler and you mention you didn't like the look of some of your solder joints. There's a trick for clean lines I learned from jewelry making. White Out correction fluid contains Titanium Dioxide, which doesn't play nice with the solder on a molecular level. You can paint the stuff on to mask off areas and stop the solder from spreading out where you don't want it. Just be sure the White Out is dry before exposing it to your torch, the solvent is flammable. It'll clean up with a light sanding or acetone.
Hope that helps when you solder this one.
I think the British units are just fine! Metric is fine for cooking.
NEAT!
Looking forward to this series.
Yes, I always say that, but this time, I'm really looking forward to ...
Thanks, and Meow to Sprocket.
Love the sound of steam engines. Beautiful engine.
Love the rocket equation shoutout
Looking forward to this series. A bit of knowledge that may come in handy: If you are handy with a Tig welder, Copper Tig welds beautifully. I just use 12 or 14 ga house wire stripped of it's insulation for filler rod. It takes a bit more amperage than stainless, and of course cleanliness of the joint is a must.
Another tip, if you have a commercial plumber or boiler repair shop nearby, stop by and make friends. You'd be surprised what coffee and donuts will get you out of the scrap bin 😉
I think your old boiler blurs the line between pot boiler and tube boiler. It has a hot tube making a couple of runs inside the boiler. That's got to be working far more efficiently than a fire burning underneath the thing. So, as weak as it might be, it is likely still more powerful than a tank with a fire under it.
A little, but the heating element is also only half the length of the boiler, so it might be a wash
Quite a project, nice analysis, steam is a lot of work.
Quinn, this a very exiting and ambitious project. I’m looking forward to the series. One aspect you didn’t mention and it was not clear from the CAD 3D pictures was steam space . I’m sure you’ve taken this into account but it’s always important to have enough for dry steam. Using a good thick water pipe as the outer casing is a great idea as you miss out the lap seam. In Bristol Uk there is a steam crane in the docks that still has a boiler of similar design to yours with a riveted single lap seam which is no doubt an obvious source of interest to all the boiler surveyors that inspect it. Good luck with the project.
Steam space really shouldn’t be an issue if the boiler is producing at high enough volume (which if it isn’t will run down the boiler no matter how big it is). Really efficient boilers start to need really good water pumps to keep up though. 😅
Thanks for the reply. The vertical boilers I’m more familiar with are the Sentinel steam waggon type which have a horizontal-ish water tubes and yes not much steam space. They do have a superheater though. They produce an amazing amount of steam for their size.
If you need 5/16 tubing, you might try looking at automotive supply stores. You can get 5/16" copper-nickel tubing for doing things like transmission cooler line.
This has been very interesting. The only boiler I have had any experience with was at a natural gas plant and people could get in our boiler when repairs were needed. We ran at 410 psi and our superheated steam was 650 degrees.
If you want a near optimal layout of the pipes for any number of pipes, check Vogel's formula for phyllotaxis.
Use the phos bronze. Much better for silver soldering. There are special fluxes for alli bronze or you can mix salt with standard flux to combat the alli oxidation. But I’d rather go with the phos, always use the best material for the job !! Don’t be tempted to save a few $$$ on a pressure vessel that will last for many years and give you a lot of pleasure for a long time. Just my 10 cents worth 👍🏻
Ok Im needing to learn so Im watching. Thanks for posting.
When Dave Richards was getting his new steam engine in and setup to run I asked him (in comments) why he wanted a new engine when the smaller one had no problems running his shop. His answer came down to rpm. He said his old engine (HAH! They're ALL old engines;) had to run at a high rpm to produce enough power to run the shop and he wanted an engine that could run at low rpm for a couple of reasons, first, it was more efficient, and second, it was a more realistic representation of how a shop of the era he was representing would have done it. Then he said that he loved the sound of a big engine running at slow rpms and that was really most of the reason:)
Drachinifel did a GREAT video on the evolution of boilers from a Navel point of view. really interesting.
I'm a member of the Model Engineering Society of Northern Ireland (MESNI) and we regularly check and inspect our boilers for running.
looooove parametric design...
Best boiler video, thank you!
I think you're an incredibly intelligent amazing person and I really appreciate the knowledge that you share.
I had occasion to recycle a collection of metal including steel, aluminum and copper. While at the recycling depot I observed a huge bin of large diameter copper pipe which they were willing to sell to me at their buy price (per pound/kg). They weighed what I wanted and I picked up a 2 inch, 8ft copper pipe I wanted to use for some table legs for about $20, a fraction of the cost to buy it new. To them it didnt matter and to me it was a steal.
You might want to check out recyclers in your area. Might be an inexpensive source of metal for your projects.
If you want to increase heat transfer efficiency in a vertical orientation like this, add some turbulence generators to the fire tubes. Either inside the fire tubes, or modify the fire tube profile. Number of options for this. Check out heat exchange design, especially small scale.
This brings back memories. I was a volunteer tech for the Stanley museum and worked on mainly on the 1909 model R. If you want to see one of the coolest steam engines, check out the model R and model K. A vertical boiler on a model K has slightly over 1000 fire tubes made of copper. Check out Bill Barnes RUclips channel. This boiler runs at 600 PSI plus.
One of the biggest advantages of a vertical fire tube boiler is the absence of an internal firebox. The top of this firebox is called the crown sheet.
What you did not cover are
1). Steam tables tracking the Carnot cycle. It’s gone to tin you engine on compressed air but you will never appreciate the power of steam until you run steam. Steam wants to expand. The expansion ratio of steam is 1600!!!!
As water boils off, the top of an internal firebox boiler can become uncovered. The crown sheet overheats. EVERY major boiler explosion can be traced to an overheated crown sheet. When feed water comes in contact with an overheated crown sheet, it will flash at 1600 to 1 expansion. Never mind your pop off set at 60… we’re talking several thousand PSI! That’s a bomb! The Stanley was a simple vertical fire tube with a burner under the boiler core. There was never a recorded instance of a Stanley explosion. Locomotives on the other hand are a different story. Steam donkeys are also an issue as they had internal fire boxes. That is why they had both site glasses as well as triple try cocks to monitor water level.
Most model steam engines are a mess to run. Condensate every where. Also they don’t have bleed off cocks on the cylinder. As the engine cools down and when it starts up, steam condenses and water does not expand. This called hydro locking. I have seen one Stanley hydro locked which blew the forward cylinder head off the engine! One cylinder was clear while the other had hydro locked.
The cleanest most efficient steam is dry steam. Most boilers produce wet or saturated steam. Your steam tables will tell you which one your working with. You mentioned water tubes running thru the fire box. That is the super heater. Stanley had a coil in the firebox which admitted saturated stream and emitted dry steam. When running dry steam, the engine runs better and does not have all the visible steam and slobbering condensate. Everything exits thru the exhaust pipe.
Model engineers love their copper and silver soldering. Big boy boilers often had steel shells and copper fire tubes. The thermal transfer efficiency of copper can not be beat! The copper tubes have their ends anealed as copper pipe is rigid. Once soft, the tubes are “rolled” into the upper and lower sheets. Rolling is kind of like flaring and there is a tool to do this. I made one for the Stanley. Personally I prefer rolled tubes over soldered or god help us welded tubes.
As a first time boiler, this series will be quite entertaining. I really miss working on steam these days!
Seamless tubing (for HVAC, instrumentation, and other industrial use) is supplied by actual O.D., so look for those. Copper pipe for plumbing is made to ASTM B88 (seamless copper water tube), which has different dimensions from ASTM B42 (seamless copper pipes). For example, a nominal size of 1/4" corresponds to an actual O.D. of 3/8" for B88 tubing, while B42 follows schedule pipe dimensions (i.e. ASME/ANSI B36.10/19) and has an actual O.D. of 0.540".
If you want tubing that is designated by actual O.D., look for the following standards. For copper tubing, ASTM B280 specifies seamless tubing for air conditioning and refrigeration (ACR). For stainless steel tubing, ASTM A269 and A270 cover seamless and welded stainless steel tubing for general and sanitary service respectively (note that ASTM A269 only covers austenitic stainless steels while ASTM A270 covers duplex stainless steels as well). ASTM A789 covers seamless and welded duplex stainless steel tubing for general service.
Before you ask, yes. I despise pipe and tube sizing standards with every fibre of my being. The only thing that makes me angrier is sheet metal gauge sizing.
Hi Quinn i think a house hold water heater has fire tubs in it and also use a twisted plate throw the tube to slow the heat on the way out .
I'm excited about seeing this. Thanks.
the boiler design looks very similar to some automotive EGR coolers. repurposing those might be a viable cheap alternative :)
Wood is a splendid choice for a steam plant, much easier to handle and produces plenty of heat for an engine (my 7.5" gauge Little Engines American burns wood with steam to spare) it also has a hard time getting hot enough to melt anything.
Really looking forward to this build series. I love your video style, it's so calm and informative.
Any plans on putting turbulators into the tire tubes to increase efficiency? Strips of stainless steel twisted into a helix works pretty well.
Good idea!
Vertical fire tube boilers have a significant safety issue. The top tube plate is fully exposed to the flue temperature with no cooling from the water and can crack and fail if the
Exit flue temperature is too high. The bottom tube plate is fully submerged. My experience with an industrial vertical tube plate boiler was one of continual top tube plate cracking and boiler failure. Take care and get a good idea of the temperature the top tube plate will be exposed to.
They say a watched pot never boils but I just witnessed it!
"RUclips gold.". Love your videos!! 😅
This is going to be a fun project.
Am I the only one who loves how you say “process” and “against”?
Bonjour Quinn, Queen would I say,
I will follow this project with a great interest, as you can imagine it. I hope you will ad enough ferrules to be able to plug different accessories (gas attenuator, check valves, whistle, drop valve...). It will not contain a lot of water, do you plan a water pump... to be also built :+) ?
Amicalement, Raphaël
Yes, it will have a pump for sure
Thank God I don't need a steam engine in my watch shop. Can you imagine a steam punk pocket watch ? Funny huh? Thanks Quinn.
Topology? I don't think topology cares about tube direction, does it? Topology thinks a doughnut and a coffee cup are the same. Also for those of us who engineer in the USA imperial units ARE the proper units. We can do the metric, but things that end up in horsepower and feet of pressure just go with steam engines! Love the channel and your machining experiences!
Very nicely explained,Quinn. I'm sure this will be a very interesting video series👌
The patina around the edges of the 4" copper pipe is from the rotary pipe cutter, it can be slightly work hardened but nohing to worry much about
there is an equation to size the Pressure, Piston diameter, RPM and Load. However, the main thing is to first you must size the cubic inches per revolution on the biggest piston diameter that is practical. That will help to lower your pressure for a known load.
Turn a generator?
@2:57 "How do you tell how big a boiler needs to be for a given engine...?"
Option 1: study math and science your whole life, and get good grades for many years of grade school and high school, then go to college, fail, go again, (those last 2 steps are optional, but recommended for full character development), this time do well, get into the engineering program, take the thermodynamics course (the worthwhile one for mechanicals and civils, not the easy one for the EEs, and learn how to read, use, and design with steam tables and other fun (but archaic) tools..
Option 2: Go into any of the variety of navy steam engineering programs offered up over the years, peaking about 50 years ago, but still in existence in some form for carriers and subs. Side benefit: nice physical fitness program to get you started.
Option 3: Watch a you tube machinist make interesting vids that help you conjure fond memories of powerplant design calculations in thermodynamics class.
Thank you for sharing.
Cool😎!.. or hot? Anyways, when I worked at ACME welding in my 20's (yes that statement is accurate 🤣) we used to retube commercial firetube boilers but never really got into the technical side of things so I really enjoyed all the spreadsheets 😁. The vast majority were horizontal boilers and used a combination of gas and some type of blower for heat. And don't know how far along you are in your build but the tubes are generally expanded into the tube sheet (sometimes welded on one end only) to allow for expansion and contraction. It certainly looks like you've already done your homework on this but just in case I thought I'd mention that 😉. Very interesting build. Pressure vessels in the homeshop! Love it! Cheers! 👍😁👍
Thanks for making boiler design look simple!
Thought that copper piece was solid for a second 😯 really wanted to know your workout routine