I don't see how you can say this is "so different" than "predictable Western structures" when Kimi no Na Wa fits perfectly into the expo-rising action-climax-falling action structure as well as much of the film mostly revolving around the conflict (dealing with switched bodies). Rather than choosing a storyline that actually points out the contrast between East and West, you chose one that can fit in both plot structures.
@@rackyphyr don't get me wrong, it's interesting I just wish it was more clearly comparing storylines. The only thing they really pointed out differently is that it doesn't require conflict but then the example isn't a great reflection of that
i havent read your name in years but from what i remember, your name there isnt really build up to the conflict, unlike how traditional three act plot structure move the story forward with conflict
@@not_urmom8021 yeah I understand that but the fact that it fits the mentioned structure doesn't really help OP's case of claiming that it's a "fresh, unpredictable" plot. They keep mentioning train to Busan in comments. If that was such a good example of East and West contrast then that should have been used.
This is actually very interesting, I've no idea there was a name for this type of storytelling. It's something I def did notice in a lot of manga I read but now thanks to your video, I finally know how it works and can apply it to my own manga story. Thanks for making this!
Of course! I also had no idea this was a thing, I always assumed the stuff we used in western media was the same world wide. I assumed there was a version of it in other cultures. I only heard the name recently and after looking into it a bit, it all clicked. I'm glad I could shine more light on it!
i guess that's the reason why even if the plot is ridiculous we still find ourselves immersed as we are more concerned about the characters than the plot itself
Kishotenketsu works so well because the CHARACTERS are the most important aspect of any story. Without characters we love, relate to or think are cool we don't really care what's happening. Forcing them into character driven scenarios to reinforce our love for them is a recipe for success
This rarely works, building a story solely around a twist means that one of these will happen 1) It succeed (rarely) 2) The twist is undermined by the story itself and undermines or gives a bad message (Oshi no Ko lost it's meaning when it makes the antagonist past worse than the one we suppose to root for making him more sympathetic) 3) The twist overtakes the story badly (the Kingdom Hearts effect)
@@nonamepasserbya6658 kishotenketsu is not a hard rule just like the hero's journey. And the example you gave with oshi no ko utilizes it constantly. The twist that the doctors patient has a terminal illness, that she dies, that his idol appears before him, that she's pregnant, doctors death and rebirth, aquas acting talent are all miniature twists that support the story. Like all structures, formulas and tropes with proper execution they work very well. Kishotenketsu can be used all the way down to a chapter structure or page to page. It can "ki sho ten ten ten tetsu" or "ten ki shi ten ketsu" it's not all back loaded onto the twist . You can use the twist to introduce something, raise suspense with alot of "ten ten ten" (Jojo's fights and chunin exams) to name a few examples. I personally dislike oshi no ko but my disengagement of it isn't from the twists itself, the story has other flaws but I hope I opened your eyes to a very interesting and strong literary tool
It kinda feels like there’s not much difference in story structure between this one and the others, just the way it’s made by a different region. Like that movie about the boy and girl switching bodies, feels like a western supernatural romance comedy movie.
@@MALICEM12 I was literally thinking about Freaky Friday when Your Name popped in back in the day 😂 I just don't get why some people make it so grand if it's "made by Japanese storytellers". There's no difference in the framework of the story. There's just the touch of culture that makes the framework more unique than the others before it.
@@akinasukizakura yea your right. I do appreciate Japanese story telling diverse perspectives. Sometimes America just makes everything into a comedy when it should be heartfelt.
I don't really get the difference between kishotenketsu and the traditional three-act, but from what I do understand, I think kishotenketsu is best used in slice-of-life stories. There's can still be conflict involved, which makes kishotenketsu flexible, and you can or chose not to have a twist to have a conclusion to said story. But, the issue I see with shonen battle manga is that they try using kishotenketsu tends to make the story ending extremely disappointing. They don't have a clear goal for the ending, and by the time you get to ten and ketsu, everything feels rushed. But, then again, I feel this way about AOT's ending and that should be considered in following the three-act structure as you have your conflict and goal from the begining.
kishotenketsu develops the character without revealing too much about where the plot is going, then there is a twist. whereas in the traditional way the conflict drives the plot forward. also i think aot uses both but yeah the ending was disappointing to say the least. also it rlly depends on how creative the author gets, of course you dont have to follow kishotenketsu word for word. I feel like in kishotenketsu its much more about the journey than the ending.
I agree. I have studied story structure for a while and it just feels like a character driven story inatead of plot driven. Nothing new to me, unless I am missing something.
Kishōtenketsu is basically a 3-act structure where the first half of the 2nd act is extended in favor of more character-centered scenes (which doesn't automatically mean a greater character development) and where everything from the midpoint to the end is condensed in a continuous rollercoaster of emotions and epic scenes. Nothing truly unique and revolutionary, in the end every single story told in the whole human history follows the same basic rules schematized and simplyfied in the 3-act narrative structure. Also, having more character-centered scenes doesn't make it a character-driven story. In character-driven stories the sequence of events is caused by the character decisions. If the narration stops for a while to show some human emotion and interactions, the character are not necessarilly making choices. On the contrary, you can have stories with very few character-centered scenes, but those are so crucial and on point that the handful of choices the characters make are impactful enough to determine the course of events of the story
This video has come at the perfect time for me. I've been following your series about structure and have been doing additional research for my manga, however the Western models I am familiar with and have been researching are essentially all the same and very focused on plot. This structure sounds fascinating and more useful for the type of stories I want to tell and for analysising the structure of manga I have read. Given my understanding of literaturary forms and structures is routed in the Western canon I have been trying to understand manga through such a lense, not even considering that the structures that are foundational in my understanding of stories may be irrelevant to what I am studying. Also, characters are what I care about more so than the "plot" so structures like the hero's journey that focus on the stuff that happens, the physical journey, not the emotional ones the characters go through can feel restrictive. Also, I like that it is a four point not three point structure as the 3 Act structure is really bizarre to me given that Act 2 is worth 50 percent in most films, so why not split it evenly?
Very good points! I am also more of a fan of this than the western models. I think it is important to ask yourself, do you enjoy western movies/books/tv shows more or less than eastern ones? If you prefer eastern ones, then this is the structure they are all thinking about when writing!
I like this structure because it allows you to do a more 'episodic' style with a different problem in every installment, but yet it ultimately still leads to the resolution of one specific linear plot
This explains so much. I love Battle Angel Alita, and when the movie came out, plenty of critics complained that the large parts of the movie lack plot, and that you see the face of the villain for the first time at the end of the movie. And I was like: yeah, Im accustomed to japanese story telling, this is typcial japanese, I still like it. Now that you explained the structure, it fits the movie perfectly!
in my home country it's in 3 steps named respectfully: 1. beginning 2. knot/plot 3. untie/ending as in first you get introduced into the story and then you introduce a knot which is often a complication elements and the plot then lastly the conclusion though it's mostly used for explaining short story and literatures
@@MonitorComics I think this might be used in spanish-speaking countries? I'm from Spain, and this person has used almost the literal translation to our steps for telling a story (inicio/begining, nudo/"knot" and desenlace/"untie" or conclusion. Although this method is fairly common, used in many theatrical stories throughout the centuries, very similar to Freytag's pyramid.
oh apologies for the late reply I'm from Mongolia and well our education system is heavily influenced by other countries so maybe we could've just directly translated the source material and used it to teach literature in middle school
Oh, I didn't know that name. I did notice however, a "typical" structure of many animes, which I think is exactly this. 1) The first 2-3 episodes are often exposition heavy, closed stories. They focus on establishing the starting group of characters. 2) Then come a few longer chapters, that take 2 or 3 episodes to conclude. These have a more complex story and set the tone for the rest. 3) Finally, what you originally think is another part of 2) suddenly turns bigger and it turns out that all/most of the previous episodes are connected in a way that we did not see before. This chapter then takes around 4 episodes to conclude and ends with character development and maybe a weak plothook for following arcs.
Great observations! You are completely correct! That is how a lot of many establish their story arcs, making them progressively longer as the story goes on Most authors try to nail the first three chapters because the "three chapter rule" is very real.
Another idea for writing differently/using kishotenketsu: Use different plot structures for the main plot and subplots. Like, if kishotenketsu does character development and worldbuilding a bit better, but the five-act structure suits action a little better.... use one for plot and one for subplot, and you're drawing on both now!
Japan is very good in standardizing mostly everything on national level. No wonder we can predict the 12-episode anime structure as: Ep 1-5 Intro Ep 6-8 Something happens Ep 9-10 Plot twist Ep 11-12 Final Battle & resolution
When it comes to the plot I usually think for my manga what I would like to experience the most while reading it. Whenever I experience a great sensation while reading manga or watching anime I usually get inspiration from those moments and think of how I could use that in my own story. It works also with other source of entertainment, such as music. I've got countless ideas for my story from various different songs from many different genres. I want to make a story which has to offer a little bit of something to everyone in a way where it would be connected and make enough sense. All in all before consuming more of Eastern media my story was probably going in a more Western, heroic approach, where the focus was probably more on action. I guess that's why I named my story Heroes even tho it doesn't sound so original. Now I could say my story feels to me completly different from before, but I can still feel its original heroic spirit which I want to keep since it doesn't really bother the story for now. Thank you for making me even more aware of the plot making in both general and specifically my story! Now i realise that my plot focuses on everything from characters and actions to messages and world building and I am satisfied with that.
Ive watch several of your video and always find that you are missing something in your manga analysis. Im about to comment that its kishotenketsu, but maybe I forgot or something. Glad you finally find it. Kishotenketsu is so bizzare if all this time you only learning about western story structure, but when you actually try to understand manga from this lens, its all make sense. To put it in my own word, Kishotenketsu is more like anecdotal story structure or like comedic beat, with its twist and punch line. In that way the best way to learn kishotenketsu is like the japanese do with the four panel gag manga.
Very great points!! I did only learn about Kishotenketsu recently through entering the Silent Manga Audition, they had a video about it on their website I always knew there was a *reason* I perferred Korean movies, kdramas, anime, etc more than western stuff, but I couldn't put my finger on it I always assumed it was just because they did their own thing and it was a cultural difference I think most of my audience is also only aware of the western structures like the hero's journey, Freytag's pyramid, 3 act structure, etc because its what we are taught in school Looking into kishotenketsu and researching it more made everything click as you said!
Wait why am I just discovering THIS channel. I've been diving down deep into authortube to improve my writing, though I feel like my writing felt too western for my liking. I'm glad someone out there making tips specifically for my type of niche. For now, I aim to write a web novel before moving to web comic. Time to binge this channel
Glad you enjoyed the video! I try to cover all things related to making comics and manga, so if if there's anything else you are interested in learning, please let me know!
Everything you said can also be applied to the western structure. It's literally the same. Hero's journey, Harmon's Story circle (a distilled hero's journey) and the three act structure. All stories follow the same structure because everything needs a beginning, a middle, and an end, and we as human beings recognize something as a story _because_ of these basic structures. Everything else is flavor; on delivery and execution.
Couldn't have explained it better myself! The purpose of these videos was to highlight the different structures out there that people use, but they are all pretty similar!
I thought of a plot structure where you literally roll a dice and kill even the character who's really op/cool/badass. Each character is made by different artist and they are literally battling each other with dice rolls. Oh.. what if naruto from Naruto just died in 7th episode. And now it's all about Sakura trying to get back sasuke. But plot twist, Sakura is orochimaru's daughter. And it was his plan all along. And that's when Kakashi decides to step in. But a literal mob damages his sharingan.
realised this is the EXACT (almost) structure i had planned out for the comic in my head, where portals open up in the sky and release monsters that kill people and are hunted down and killed by an organisation mc is part of. it starts off like that, then as the story goes on more is revealed and it's revealed that everything is part of a giant conspiracy and underground wars (wont say more in case i actually decide to create it), then there is a GIANT revelation and twist that fucks everything and everyone up and in the end everyone is scrambling to pick up the pieces and desperately trying to stop the incoming threat. have planned to maybe extend the last part by quite a bit but overall its susprisingly similar edit: yhhhh sorry this won't happen
@@yosoycheese9930 i was planning it to be a comic but you made me realise it could work well as an actual story, which i would actually be able to create as im not a very good drawer. sadly it would lose some of the effect that drawing has and i might have to compress the story a bit but writing it could work a lot better for me as i'm a good writer. i'll see what i will do with the story, thanks for showing interest lol
@@senarmstrongfanaccount There is always the option of teaming up with an artist, though it may be hard. Even as a novel though, I think I’d read that.
@@Jazengamic tysm for giving me the motivation to start writing it already 😊 already have the big story beats planned out in my head. i'll probably mess up the ending though lol as i dont have a clear idea of what it will be, if that happens you can take over
I would argue that this formula is not the reason a lot of eastern media seems better written. It's more that most western media in the last 20 years has been so bad. There was good western media for a long time, using many different formulas (including similar ones as this). Western media has just gone all in on "subverting expectations" and pushing agendas, rather than telling a good story. For the record, there's plenty of Japanese stuff written with this formula which is also lackluster, like say Golden Time. And there's Japanese stuff that uses a very traditional Hero's Journey or three act structure, like Toradora. What makes the good ones good is the same thing that made old western media good. Good characters with agency, good pacing, good set ups and good payoffs. In this way, you're right that the plot is less important. But that just points out you can use any plot formula. And that Kishotenketsu itself is not why things are good.
thank you so, so match. I've been practicing's kishotenketsu for a bit but didn't have a firm grasp on how to use it properly. thanks for the examples. I didn't know this was used in long story's.
I think naoki urasawa has nailed the kishotenketsu. Im reading 20th century boys and is actually insane how you can see he using it in the chapters and volumes. I think he's the one i can see more clearly using this structure
Can someone please better explain this to me??? I'm still not sure how this differentiates from western writing styles. In this video he says that kishotenketsu mainly consists of building characters and character relationships, but any well written story(western or not) is going to basically already do this, since you can't have a story without well written characters(if your story has characters). What I picked up from this video is that instead of having a fallling action (which usually comes right after the climax) they have a plot-twist and then the resolution. I'm still very confused, please explain?
It is pretty much the same as the Three Act Structure. At the end of the day, a story has a beginning, middle and end right. These plot structures just help you visualize what that journey could look like in your story A lot of western media is plot focused, of course not ALL of them, but a good amount of them. Take horror movies for example, you most likely remember the villain characters like Michael Myers, Freddy Kruger, The Nun, Jason Vorhees etc But do you remember ANY of the main cast? Other movies like Insidious have memorable PLOTS, but I couldn't even tell you the main character's name A lot of western stories tend to be like that. With Eastern stories though, there is more emphasis on the character writing Take for example the worldwide success of Train to Busan and Parasyte. Both had VERY MEMORABLE casts of characters With eastern stories, the plots are important too, but it doesn't have to be the "main thing." The easiest example to think of is slice of life anime, most are lighthearted day to day events. There are no major problems or conflict, its just the characters doing things Kishotenketsu basically says you don't need a conflict to tell a story. If you have one great, but it isn't a huge focus in some eastern stories
@@MonitorComics Thank you for explaining, I understand better, just one more question if you don't mind me asking. What do you mean by "not all stories need a conflict"? I understand how slice of life wouldn't need a major conflict for the main character to overcome, but with a lot of the anime's that you mentioned/showed in your video, like chainsaw man and demon slayer, do have a conflict or some sort've challenge/goal for the main character to achieve and or overcome??? Also, I'm a storywriter too 😃 So how would I incorporate kishotenketsu into my story too? Since my story does have a main antagonist, it doesn't really have any major conflict or goal for the main character to achieve, well, I guess my protagonist's goal would be to defeat the antagonist and make the world a better place(since she's a superhero)
@@FishyFishSalmonFish It's kind of similar to Freytag's Pyramid in the sense that it has been modernized over time Freytag's Pyramid used to always be about tragedy but nowadays people replace the tragedy part with "resolution" so it can apply to a lot of other stories Kishotenketsu is similar in the sense you CAN have a conflict if you want, but it is not required. With Demon Slayer specifically you could think of it like Ki (Intro): Tanjiro is introduced, we see his normal everyday life with his family. Story begins when a demon kills his family Sho (Development): Tanjiro becomes a demon slayer, meets allies like Zenitsu and Inosuke. Fights various demons on missions. The demon slayer corps are explored when the hashira are introduced Ten (Twist) This could be many instances. The first being the reveal that Nezuko is a demon who still has human emotions, Tanjiro unlocking the hinokami kagura, etc. Any reveal that adds complexity to the story would count as this Ketsu (Conclusion) This can be seen in major story arcs and battles where conflicts are resolved and there's closure Like the other plot structures, kishotenketsu can be used for individual story arcs rather than the entire story. Also like every plot structure, you do not need to abide to it completely, doing your own thing sometimes helps the story
@@MonitorComics Why would you lie to your audience and say it's different in the video but be honest in this comment and say that they're effectively the same?
@@MonitorComics Based on I'll written stories like the latest Peter Pan, crew cartoon called Velma, The mockery of Classic Disney films with live action ones. She-Hulk may I say more at this point?
Recently I've felt trapped using the three act structure, which I normally use. I also absolutely hate Freytag's Pyramid, it's always seemed way too linear. This sounds much freer and interesting and I'm excited to try and use it in my next work!
Me, I don't pigeon hole any of my work into any kind of pre-made structure. I just think of the story I want to tell and tell it. Then I think about things like structure and theme only after I've laid the basic plot out. These things exist to serve the story, not the other way around.
Man, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you're rigidly trying to follow a specific story structure. Trust me when I sat that this will not make a difference, it's still just another story structure to achieve the same endgoal as Freytag or Hero's Journey or Three Act or what will you. Telling the story you want to tell often already loosely follows a "structure," because stories need structure to make sense, so don't worry about trying to cram your story into a predetermined structure. Just write, brother. Drop the story's beats where you think they oughta be. The guy above me puts it VERY WELL.
@@TheGreatJinx unfortunately I can’t have zero structure when writing, or I write myself into a corner or a marathon with no end constantly. I have some neurodivergency issues that keep me from just writing or going out on a limb. Thank you so much for the advice, though! I have found that this structure is loose enough for me to “not have a structure” but still keep my plot line intact ^^
A lot of these story structures are similar to each other. Dan Harmon's Story circle and kishotenketsu originated in different parts of the world though
Great Video, but I would like to clarify on the Subject. Kishotenketsu is a Character driven structure but its not void of conflict. Instead of focusing on a Character's External Struggle its focuses on he/her's Internal Struggle, which is why its Character Driven. Hajime Isayama used Kishotenketsu in the first season of AOT which lead to Eren being way less interesting, where in the 3rd season Erens internal struggle get's resovled through resolving his external struggle. If you are writing a Manga then use Dan Harmons Story Structure while Having you Character Focus on his internal struggle which is what most modern manga do. Since the 4 act structure is just hero's journey but condensed.
Maybe that’s why I always feel a bit bothered by some mangas/animes endings (cuz they feel abrupt or sudden) but don’t have any issues with the rest of the story- I personally think this is an interesting story structure but not something I like because after a twist, I’d prefer to see how it actually plays out and effects all the characters and setting especially if it’s a long form story with a big/serious twist. I get annoyed sometimes when I read stories where the twist is revealed and the story ends quickly afterwards, especially if the twist is of a villain and they have hardly any time to do anything before they’re defeated. I think I’d probably prefer a mix of the two if anything but I wouldn’t rlly call the western standard story structure boring or predictable since I’ve never really found them to be like that by default but maybe that’s just me
I think you explain the structure quite poorly. The main idea of the 4 part structure is in the 3rd part, the twist. Let's compare the time machine movie, Back To The Future, and your example, Kimi no Nawa (Your Name) Back To The Future has the standard 3 part structure. First, a kid and a mad professor traveled back in time using their car. Second, developments and conflict happened, and they were stuck in the past. Lastly, they concluded the story with a happy ending and everyone back home with a new character development. Now, let's see Kimi no Nawa. First, you were introduced a couple of normal high schooler, one of them live in a rural area, and the other is from Tokyo. Second, the development started. They started switching their body, living the most opposite life they could never think of. They also started falling im love. Third, the twist happened. (this is the most important part) The girl he switched body with was actually dead all this time. This part is why so many Japanese stories are very interesting. Lastly, the fourth part: conclusion. Unlike the 3 part structure, Kishotenketsu has to somehow merge both of the developed story and the twist in one satisfying conclusion. In Kimi no Nawa, the boy had to travel back in time while losing the memory of the girl in order to save the city. That's the conclusion that the author wrote. Now, do you see the difference in how the western and the eastern write their stories? P.S (if not obvious) You can't just rely on the Kishotenketsu structure to make a good story like the japanese did, you also need to be creative.
Idk man it seems basically the same as a western 3 act structure. Like the examples described could fit under either. Came expecting some kind of interesting writing technique, instead I just learned what they call these common features in Japan lol. EDIT: I think you also misunderstand what 'conflict' means in a writing sense. It doesn't exclusively refer to literal conflict my guy. Conflict is an integral part of character writing and is a driving force in the stories you described.
The main difference between Kishotenketsu and The Three Act structure IS the lack of conflict in some stories. For example, the slice of life genre is incredibly popular in Japan, most SoL stories don't have any "real conflicts" Similar to other plot structures though, you can apply these to other genres, change it up a bt, and make it work for most stories Eastern stories tend to be more character driven than plot driven, that's why a zombie movie like Train To Busan is so incredibly acclaimed, its because of the character writing In contrast to western films like World War Z where it's literally hollywood only caring about the zombies and action I am aware of what conflict is and how there can be internal or external conflict, give me a little credit here haha
@@MonitorComics I haven't read that much slice of life manga but from what I have seen there is usually at least some emotional conflict either between characters or within them. I agree that it is less intense and almost always at a smaller scale but I think it is still an important part of the story. I also agree that eastern storytelling is (emphasis) generally more character driven, but I don't think there is necessarily a connection between character focused writing and writing with no/dramatically reduced conflict. That is, I think conflict is inseparably tied to both character and plot driven writing. Personally, I think World War Z sucks ass because it is a terribly executed movie plagued by production issues rather than the writing philosophy of its creators. For a counter example, I think Death Note is also a very plot-centric narrative, to wildly different effect. Basically what I am trying to say is that I think you could easily write an eastern style story with a western structure and vice versa, because these structures are fundamentally similar. Interesting to discuss though!
@@jimjimson6208 I do agree with your last point, all of these plot structures are universal and essentially "do the same thing" Some people just prefer one over the other for whatever reason, that's why there's so many of them. At the end of the day it's just "make a story with a beginning middle and end" To your point about Slice of Life, I think you are mostly referring to one with the Drama tag or Romance tag as well. Slice of Life stories like K-ON, Nichijou, etc have basically no conflict, and if there is a "problem" in the chapter it is easily resolved without any issue In K-ON, it is literally just girls making a band and playing music, there are no rivals or drama or issues, they just write songs and perform every chapter With Death Note, while it is plot focused, I'd argue that everyone remembers the dynamic between L and Light very well. The series felt like a character study specifically for Light, he went from a normal kid to a serial killer to a literal psychopath
@Monitor Comics I think the argument can be that rather than conflict being absent, it's simply de-emphasized and/or just more subtle. More internal by nature of priority being put on characters development. But perhaps my impression stems from not really understanding what "ten" is. For all intent and purpose, it doesn't sound much different from "conflict" in other narrative structures tbh but that may have to do with me not really grasping the nuaince of what "ten" is and how it differs from "conflict". Depending on the answer I think I could point to some western examples of this narrative structure tho (perhaps without the realization of the authors)
@@fatalblue Ten is the twist ending, the easiest I can think of where this is used often is 4 koma manga. Each panel represents a different part of the structure (ki, sho, ten, ketsu)
I have already learned of Kishotenketsu from the Literature Devil on his video about it. I recommend his video to learn even more about it. I have also been using this story telling structure with my own stories in DeviantArt. It is my favorite story telling structure.
how is this different from all the other ones you mentioned in the beginning? I know nothing about all these, but all seem similar to me. Beginning -> something -> resolution. But really thank you for making this video. I didn't know that there are names for all these techniques. Very interesting and informative.
It's not really that different. He also makes a few interesting claims regarding there being no need for conflict, but that doesn't check out: Every story needs conflict, both internal and external. Even episodic, slice-of-life comedies have conflict, though not in the swords-out sense.
How do i find MY audience? I always had the doubts that my stories could've been praised if it were created in the 2000's cuz all of my works basically embody everything from that era of entertainment media (80's and 90's as well). I'm just a kid who enjoys all out action stories yet I'm too scared to share my own with modern audiences cuz my creations don't have LoTR, AtLA or modern entertainment levels of complexity. And I'll say it again; I'm a kid who enjoys the simple and cheesy side of entertainment. It's not that i don't wanna share, I'm just scared that i might attract the wrong people
I’m not monitor comics of course but I do have advice. However trends in anime tend to revert back to old trends. The difference is to add something new with a twist. For example, a strongman going against magic isn’t new in anime but Magic and Muscle puts a spin on it by focusing more on the trope combative wise. Here’s my suggestion. Take what you like (Let’s use Tsunderes as an example) and display it differently. For example, Tsunderes are romanticized but what if someone talked about how much it would actually suck dating one irl?
My advice is take advantage of nostalgia. The typing sounds of a virtual keyboard are from a typewriter made over a 100 years ago. There is no other purpose to the sound other than nostalgic emotions. That is also why phone cameras still have a shutter sound, it was implemented on purpose for nostalgia that is part of human nature. If you have an art style that is unique and nostalgic of early 2000's than that a bonus. Also another advice is connections. That is why so many artists go to colleges like CALarts or SCAD despite it being waaaay overpriced. One way to make connections without going to those expensive colleges though is just by helping out other artists and writers with their dream projects.
There is no "right answer," when you are trying to be a comic artist, you need to go where the readers are. Right now that is webcomic platforms like Webtoons and Tapas. MangaPlus Creators is HUGE right now and the best place I would recommend. With platforms though, you cant be sure WHO is going to read your work, there are always going to be people who don't like it, but you might find some who DO Even if you go the traditional publisher route, their job is to just get your work in front of an audience. Its hard to "cherry pick" who gets to read it, unless you paywall your content and advertise a specific way. For example you could lock chapters on Patreon and advertise everywhere "to read a story about ____. please support me here" Hopefully that helps a bit!
First, make sure you can even make it. Not just put out whenever. Make a time frame of when you can finish it. It's a good means of understanding your limits.
I think there is a difference between "kishotenketsu" and "the hero's journey." However I don't like how the video describes it because it makes it confusing and black and white. I think "kishotenketsu" definitely exists in a form in the west and vice verse with the hero's journey in Japan. For example, I think Harry Potter feels a lot like kishotenketsu because its story revolves around a cast of characters and contained stories from book to book. Although the first Harry Potter has elements of the hero's journey, it hardly follows it and less so in the following books. Basically, the hero's journey is the story structure of an unremarkable person being introduced (either physically or metaphorically) to a remarkable world (again, usually physical but can be metaphorical) and experiencing change that is brought back with them at the end of the story to their unremarkable world. On the other side, Japan is not exempt from the hero's journey, for example the show Bleach is a pretty popular use in Japanese animation. Although overall it might fall under "kishotenketsu," I think it's similar to Harry Potter in that it uses the hero's journey a lot for its individual story arcs. In fact, it does this FOUR times before its climactic final arc (Substitute Shinigami arc, Soul Society arc, Hueco Mundo arc, and Fullbringer arc all see the protagonist being exposed to a foreign and unique world that he must travel through before then returning to his regular life). There is more nuance to it than just east vs west, and I think this is because both types of storytelling have a time and place. In a sense I think Japanese shows and manga tell "kishotenketsu" as the video talks about, however. With arc-to-arc stories similar to Harry Potter, it establishes a kind of norm for the series to relax in to. Where a structure like the hero's journey covers the most exciting part about the characters' lives, it seems "kishotenketsu" is more concerned with covering their overall lives. The real climax comes when that life is interrupted or changed in a big way, which is the "twist." This comes in Harry Potter during the Deathly Hallows when the wizarding world is subjugated by Voldemort, and the main trio is sent on the run. Think of a manga like Naruto compared to the book series Lord of the Rings. In Naruto, Konoha is the home village of the protagonists, and it's where you expect them to be. They spend most of their time simply living their despite the many story arcs they go through. The Lord of the Rings has no Konoha. Instead, the story takes us on a journey through Middle Earth where the protagonists see the wonders of the world. Frodo's in-world Konoha, the Shire, is just the unremarkable world that he leaves behind and then returns to with his new development from the journey. For Naruto , I think kishotenketsu exists because its written not about its story arcs but around its story arcs, where characters are learning and changing. Generally I think these stories also have a sense that there is something bigger going on than these smaller story arcs, like in Harry Potter where every arc and its story ultimately comes to the point of Voldemort's takeover of the wizarding world, which seems like it was the larger plot all long. So, I think the video is very flawed in its analysis but it does make an interesting point by labeling this story structure of "kishotenketsu." I think even though I wrote a very long comment about it I still am barely scratching the surface of the intricacies of how this storytelling technique works and compares to other types. But, if I could attempt to summarize what I'm thinking about, I would say that the hero's journey is a way to write stories where characters are taken on a journey of conflict and character progression, while kishotenketsu is a way to write long-term stories with an underlying sense of greater purpose, whether that be the plot's climax or the development and progression of the characters. Basically, the hero's journey is better for movies while kishotenketsu is better for tv shows. I think that's where the video failed, because it proposed this idea of story structure while taking it at face value and not analyzing their relations to each other. He seems really good at researching but not so much understanding of writing. I've already written long enough but I wish I've proposed enough thoughts to help develop our understanding of story structure. Thank you to this video for bringing up the topic, although I wish it was framed more to the open idea of discussion rather than a black and white east vs west kind of dilemma. I think it doesn't do the topic justice. Regardless, I think writing out my thoughts has helped by clear up what I think about these two better as well as sparked future thought into the subject.
I want to talk about this since I'm such a huge manga fan and I want to describe what I like about stories where we spend time with the characters and their lives, simultaneously I love tv shows like breaking bad, avatar, the sopranos, and of course plenty of sitcoms that do similar things
Thanks for this explanation. I was wondering if you are writing a novel series, could I used kishotenketsu or not? You did is for long form like tv show not movies (3acts )?
Based on your example, the structure is identical to western structures. You have characters with a preexisting problem/status, and then an inciting incident, then they try to solve the problem/mystery caused by that incident, and then there's a resolution based on the success or failure of that attempt. That's the definition of classic story telling structure.
I wish more stories was truly focused on the characters and everything being a consequence of their actions and morals. The simple plot of a boy rising to stop an evil king. The king is evil, and that's it. This doesn't work as well as if he has a motive or a reason. That it's not outside forces that makes him who he is. Take Hamlet for example. A king is a social position humanity made. But any position of power could be similar. So have the antagonist build himself the circumstances that let him make himself a king, not that the title of king dictated it. When magic is involved. Make it the character's exploration of magic that makes the world and their consequences. I hate when worlds has predefined rules and systems that can't be argued against. Like angels and demons. That leaves little for an actual plot revolving around people as we already know what's good or bad. But if things can change then suddenly a single ruler can be very interesting when he isn't as logical or absolute. If an army approaches and he refuses to either escape or defend. Then why. Cause he has his motives. If the world had set rules they'd have said: This land is good and must be protected, thus the king's job is to protect it. But without rules, what if the country and duty is changed in the king's view? That affects everyone as they have also different ideas of country and duty. But who to follow, and why? Growth of exploration to find your own. Not grow to fit a mold.
I've noticed this structure appearing a lot in recent, mainstream series, which at first I thought was a bid to stand out from the classic shonen structure, but now I understand it has much deeper roots in Japanese media.
İve been writing since İ was like... FOUR and İ never used ör liked the hero's journey. The main reason was because İ thought things didnt go out that was. İ always tried to dövüş on my characters and their relationships. At first it was hard because when you do that, its hard to keep the narative going but the End results are fascinating. İ think this method really helps you use it to the Max.
Really good video , i didn't know about this plot structure , i'm a huge anime fan and gamer For years my favorite game was The Witcher 3 i have 500h and bought it twice and then i played the Yakuza games , Yakuza 0 was my first game in the series in 2018 Now TW3 is not even in my top 10 , i was incredibly impressed with the Yakuza games about 7 games in the serie are in my top 10 Recently i played Fire Emblem 3 houses and that's another game that impressed me , huge fan of lot of Japanese games and anime
Having a 2-minute sponsorship segment in a 7min video is a bit...... Like, it was a good video, but the proportions were a bit off. Maybe flesh the video out to 10min if your going to spend 2 minutes on sponsorship.
never seen your name but even tho you spoiled it the premise hooks me. Also the Kishotenketsu method seems way better in my opinion as is probably what makes japanese media stand out. Last question,how hard is it to create a manga without any specific story structure in mind?
Not better, just different. Some stories simply lend themselves to different structures. If someone was immersed in character driven stories then a plot driven story may stand out to them more.
I try to think of story structures as a starting point, it gives you a light roadmap of what *should* happen to make it well written. Following it 1/1 will make it feel generic and like everything else though, so many writers experiment and do their own thing. Take a story like Attack On Titan for example, it is told out of chronological order. That is one way to change things up and make it interesting!
its not a special manga writing method or "japanese" specialty, its just a general story telling structure to make it more interesting. And its nothing different, even my middle school teacher taught us to write essays that way, so you could focus more on your story.
Your video comes off as pretty petty considering that it seems to place eastern writting on a pedestal when the number 1 complaint about most if not all anime is that it's generally poorly pased and ends on a very dull note. Some of the best written and most interesting anime/manga aren't even featured in the video, something like a Perfect blue or Berserk, which they themselves don't really fit in kishotenketsu, which just seems like a fancy japanese word for Syd Field's paradigm, maybe miniplot with a twist in the end is more fitting, but whatever.
You made a very big generalization there by saying "the number 1 complaint about most if not all anime is it is poorly paced and ends on a very dull note" I'd love for you to provide a source to that statement. Regardless, I think many of the series you may be thinking of that have lackluster endings is due to the publishing culture in Japan. Manga starts in a magazine, many that publish weekly. Every week artists don't know if their series is getting axed at the next meeting Many stories get cancelled after a few chapters, others after a few volumes. The opposite problem is often true, the creator of Death Note has stated that he wanted to end the story after volume 7 but was told to continue the story because it was popular. That in turn led to the controversial second half of the story Perfect Blue IS a good movie. I tend to avoid anime originals though and try to speak only about manga series or anime with manga/light novel source material because most of my audience is comic artists Berserk is also an incomplete story, which is the main reason I don't talk about it too often. Plot structures are built on a beginning middle and end, so I don't see a point in talking about something without an ending, at least in a video about plot structure
Lol, its the exact same structure with a different emphasis. You went bite by bite for normal story structure. Introduction (exposition/call to action/character establishment), Development (Conflict/Character development/Challenge), Twist(Big Fall/Tragedy/Revelation/Plot), Resolution(Return/Fall/Catharsis/Aftermath). I would say the major difference here is that the twist is represented as a singular moment in this simplified graph compared to the several moments in a typical three act structure. Thus instead of having a build up of highs and lows, you have one high and one low. You can also say it doesn't have a focus on conflict, but that's only from the perspective of confrontational conflict, not conflict as a challenge or emotional aspect. While a character developmental twist might be more apparent in this structure it is not the structure itself that allows it, but the inherent collective bias towards a narrative direction that drives it. It is not western bias that conflict is strictly confrontational whether physically or otherwise, it is corporate bias, one that now dominates much of media. Direct conflict provides simplified answers and desires that grant corporate entities to end with a bang without seeking out great storytellers. Thus spewing out regurgitated endless repetition for profit. You see this more and more in eastern development now as well as corporate bias demands faster turnover and thus leads to more cheap direct conflict (Twist/conflicts). The reason the character development stands out in Japanese manga and Anime though is because they still produce an environment where the artist/creator has a much larger say in their work and is able to make a profit from it. This fosters new creatives that have the ability to fully bring out character development without the need for direct conflict and thus follow typical story structure in unorthodox means. Thus while I will say that Kishotenketsu is certainly a development by eastern culture and it lends itself to episodic story telling which is why you see it used so much in anime and manga. It is not something entirely to itself, but a separate but similar development of design. Similar to how there are Pyramids across the globe whether you want to call them ziggurats or pyramids or mounds, humans naturally develop the technology eventually. Its the same here. The structure is the same, it is just a different emphasis and largely a difference in commercial success/exposure. You can still see this structure a lot in western literature without it being eastern inspired, but its much rarer to see it in episodic shows or comics in western media simply because western economic structure doesn't foster the creative freedom for artist like it used to
I don't really get the difference of Kishotenketsu and the Three Act Structure.. Like in both we have : 1 Status Quo 2 Distruption of status Quo 3 Climax\Twist 4 Resolution\Conclusion
They are pretty much the same. Kishotenketsu basically just says "you dont need a conflict or a climax to tell a good story" The easiest example I can think of is slice of life anime where "nothing really happens." You don't go into them expecting a extraordinary plotline or anything crazy, its just characters doing things At the end of the day a story has a beginning, middle and end. All of these plot structures are similar in many ways with slight differences
There aren't that many differences. I made this video because it's another story structure that exists (There's also videos of 3 act structure, freytag's pyramid, story circle, etc on here) The main difference would be that "twist" component. It's most obvious in 4koma manga because it's usually the "punchline" of a joke But for more serious stories, it is sort of like the climax but more of a turning point for the plot
Thank you for the video! I think the definition of Kishotenketsu you said was right, however, correct me if i’m wrong, i think the samples you show in the video are not the correct samples for kishotenketsu story structure? Kishotenketsu are a story structure without conflict and rely on plot twist, mostly found in 4-koma, like kobo-chan manga, newspaper and social media comic strips, mostly found in slice of life story. The ghibli one was right, but most of shonen manga shown here using conflict and resolution in their story just like the western story structure. Many Japanese mangakas also influenced with western storytelling. Manga that using kishotenketsu structure that pop up in my mind is adachi mitsuru’s works. But tbh i’m still figuring out how kishotenketsu works too, so i’m not sure if this is accurate. It would be good if you quote some legitimate sources to help us understand better!
I think you are more on the right path!! When I was reading about Kishotenketsu I was also confused by that part because a lot of modern manga (shojo, seinen, shonen) follow a story structure WITH a conflict Like you said, 4-koma are usually credited when talking about Kishotenketsu, I realized that more when I made a video specifically about yonkoma I do believe that was my mistake in this video, so I apologize that that part was confusing. Thank you for adding your own thoughts and clarifying!
I think a focus on both is important. A good plot is important to keep everything believable and realistic. Same goes for the characters. Focusing too much on one and ignoring the other is a mistake.
Maybe it’s just me but there a Kishotenketsu sense in the animated Avatar: The Last Airbender. Like it was never really about defeating the fire lord, but it was always Aang’s journey as well everyone else’s journey.
It must be because I grew up reading manga and watching anime, but it seems Ive already been using Kishotenketsu in my writing all my life without realising as I already do those things that were mentioned. I guess I instinctively learnt it naturally from the Japanese stories I consumed.
please... maybe give a spoiler alert ahead if you gonna use any movie as an example. I literally hadn't watched Kimi no Nawa and it's on my list, now I don't feel like watching it anymore cuz to watch it when I'm already told about the twist, the feeling won't be the same. The surprise element is taken away 😅 I'm not mad or anything, if anything, this video is very informative and I thank you for that. It's just, it would help if there's a spoiler alert at the beginning of the video. Huhuhu
What do you think about episodic manga? Like for example Osamu Tezuka’s Black Jack? Like how do you tell an effective, comprehensive story in 20 or so pages? And how do you establish continuity in an episodic manga?
I feel like you didn't really explain _how_ this narrative structure is any different. You just said it is, several times, for several minutes. The only salient fact is "characters are more important than conflict". But that isn't even part of this structure, so it seems like an anecdotal observation or opinion even.
The literal difference is the lack of conflict part. That is the part that sets it apart from other story structures. Like everything else though, it's been adapted to fit most stories, even stories WITH clear conflict. That adaptation part is similar to how Freytag's Pyramid was originally intended for tragedies with its final part being "catastrophe" but it's been modernized and changed to "resolution" to fit more stories The other literal difference is this originated in Japan, Korea, and apparently china according to one commenter. That's the main reason I made a video on it, it's just another thing that exists YES it is similar to some western ones, but that's not on me, that's on whoever made it. At the end of the day a story has a beginning, middle, and end so any story structure is going to feel similar Hopefully that clears up some of your confusion!
I feel this is also true for single arcs inside one story. I'll take the first Dr. Stone arc as an example (so spoiler warning if you wanna watch it and haven't yet). Ki is: establishing the Stone World situation, Sho is: making the revival fluid and rescuing Yuzuriha, Ten is: Tsukasa being evil and Ketsu is: Senku and Taiju going different ways to accomplish different goals.
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Holy ur ad is half the video. Reminds of chips bags when 60% of it is air
@@Momogamer9 You're free to skip it, there's timestamps for a reason
wtf 6:27
I don't see how you can say this is "so different" than "predictable Western structures" when Kimi no Na Wa fits perfectly into the expo-rising action-climax-falling action structure as well as much of the film mostly revolving around the conflict (dealing with switched bodies). Rather than choosing a storyline that actually points out the contrast between East and West, you chose one that can fit in both plot structures.
Yeah the video seems like a classic example of "place vs place, japan" or "thing vs thing in japan." Kinda weird.
@@rackyphyr don't get me wrong, it's interesting I just wish it was more clearly comparing storylines. The only thing they really pointed out differently is that it doesn't require conflict but then the example isn't a great reflection of that
i havent read your name in years but from what i remember, your name there isnt really build up to the conflict, unlike how traditional three act plot structure move the story forward with conflict
@@not_urmom8021 yeah I understand that but the fact that it fits the mentioned structure doesn't really help OP's case of claiming that it's a "fresh, unpredictable" plot. They keep mentioning train to Busan in comments. If that was such a good example of East and West contrast then that should have been used.
@@not_urmom8021 the only difference shown in this video is that the build up leads to a twist, rather than escalation of conflict
Make a lot of sense, being always drawn to Japanese-style story telling because I love character-driven plots.
This is actually very interesting, I've no idea there was a name for this type of storytelling. It's something I def did notice in a lot of manga I read but now thanks to your video, I finally know how it works and can apply it to my own manga story. Thanks for making this!
Of course! I also had no idea this was a thing, I always assumed the stuff we used in western media was the same world wide. I assumed there was a version of it in other cultures. I only heard the name recently and after looking into it a bit, it all clicked. I'm glad I could shine more light on it!
Its a very common structure in storytelling. But its just one of the many things i cant really translate into english (my first language is mandarin)
i guess that's the reason why even if the plot is ridiculous we still find ourselves immersed as we are more concerned about the characters than the plot itself
True!
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Demon Slayer in a nutshell
Kishotenketsu works so well because the CHARACTERS are the most important aspect of any story. Without characters we love, relate to or think are cool we don't really care what's happening. Forcing them into character driven scenarios to reinforce our love for them is a recipe for success
Ray Bradbury wrote a story with zero characters yet manages to make you feel immersed in the story
@@ESALTEREGOwhich one?
Aristotle and Mystery writer disagree with you
This rarely works, building a story solely around a twist means that one of these will happen
1) It succeed (rarely)
2) The twist is undermined by the story itself and undermines or gives a bad message (Oshi no Ko lost it's meaning when it makes the antagonist past worse than the one we suppose to root for making him more sympathetic)
3) The twist overtakes the story badly (the Kingdom Hearts effect)
@@nonamepasserbya6658 kishotenketsu is not a hard rule just like the hero's journey.
And the example you gave with oshi no ko utilizes it constantly. The twist that the doctors patient has a terminal illness, that she dies, that his idol appears before him, that she's pregnant, doctors death and rebirth, aquas acting talent are all miniature twists that support the story. Like all structures, formulas and tropes with proper execution they work very well.
Kishotenketsu can be used all the way down to a chapter structure or page to page. It can "ki sho ten ten ten tetsu" or "ten ki shi ten ketsu" it's not all back loaded onto the twist . You can use the twist to introduce something, raise suspense with alot of "ten ten ten" (Jojo's fights and chunin exams) to name a few examples.
I personally dislike oshi no ko but my disengagement of it isn't from the twists itself, the story has other flaws but I hope I opened your eyes to a very interesting and strong literary tool
More than half the video was spent not explaining what it actually was, the intro is longer than the video
right? definitely written by AI
It kinda feels like there’s not much difference in story structure between this one and the others, just the way it’s made by a different region. Like that movie about the boy and girl switching bodies, feels like a western supernatural romance comedy movie.
Yeah, there really isn't much difference.
Yeah it's just freaky Friday but with romance and a weird time travel sub plot
@@MALICEM12 I was literally thinking about Freaky Friday when Your Name popped in back in the day 😂 I just don't get why some people make it so grand if it's "made by Japanese storytellers". There's no difference in the framework of the story. There's just the touch of culture that makes the framework more unique than the others before it.
私もそう思います。起承転結は昔からどこの国でも物語を作るうえで自然とそうなるパターンだと思います。
①問題が発生する。②物語が進む。③大きな変化があってクライマックスを迎える。④話が収束する。
どの国の物語でも見られる基本的なパターンです。
@@akinasukizakura yea your right. I do appreciate Japanese story telling diverse perspectives. Sometimes America just makes everything into a comedy when it should be heartfelt.
I don't really get the difference between kishotenketsu and the traditional three-act, but from what I do understand, I think kishotenketsu is best used in slice-of-life stories. There's can still be conflict involved, which makes kishotenketsu flexible, and you can or chose not to have a twist to have a conclusion to said story. But, the issue I see with shonen battle manga is that they try using kishotenketsu tends to make the story ending extremely disappointing. They don't have a clear goal for the ending, and by the time you get to ten and ketsu, everything feels rushed. But, then again, I feel this way about AOT's ending and that should be considered in following the three-act structure as you have your conflict and goal from the begining.
kishotenketsu develops the character without revealing too much about where the plot is going, then there is a twist. whereas in the traditional way the conflict drives the plot forward. also i think aot uses both but yeah the ending was disappointing to say the least. also it rlly depends on how creative the author gets, of course you dont have to follow kishotenketsu word for word. I feel like in kishotenketsu its much more about the journey than the ending.
I agree. I have studied story structure for a while and it just feels like a character driven story inatead of plot driven. Nothing new to me, unless I am missing something.
@@not_urmom8021 this must be what Kingdom Hearts series does? 😂 twists ohh the twists
@@not_urmom8021errr... looks like what One Piece is. i'm scared the ending will just MEH, or Oda just use lazy Open Ending
@@keitaro3660 I'm pretty sure Oda has it at least half figured out and already knows what the One Piece is ever since Whitebeards death
Huh... Ya know, this actually explains a whole lot.
RIGHT.
Kishōtenketsu is basically a 3-act structure where the first half of the 2nd act is extended in favor of more character-centered scenes (which doesn't automatically mean a greater character development) and where everything from the midpoint to the end is condensed in a continuous rollercoaster of emotions and epic scenes.
Nothing truly unique and revolutionary, in the end every single story told in the whole human history follows the same basic rules schematized and simplyfied in the 3-act narrative structure.
Also, having more character-centered scenes doesn't make it a character-driven story.
In character-driven stories the sequence of events is caused by the character decisions. If the narration stops for a while to show some human emotion and interactions, the character are not necessarilly making choices.
On the contrary, you can have stories with very few character-centered scenes, but those are so crucial and on point that the handful of choices the characters make are impactful enough to determine the course of events of the story
1/3 is advertisement, the next 1/3 are iterations of the same ideas, in last third you will not learn the technique
This video has come at the perfect time for me. I've been following your series about structure and have been doing additional research for my manga, however the Western models I am familiar with and have been researching are essentially all the same and very focused on plot. This structure sounds fascinating and more useful for the type of stories I want to tell and for analysising the structure of manga I have read. Given my understanding of literaturary forms and structures is routed in the Western canon I have been trying to understand manga through such a lense, not even considering that the structures that are foundational in my understanding of stories may be irrelevant to what I am studying.
Also, characters are what I care about more so than the "plot" so structures like the hero's journey that focus on the stuff that happens, the physical journey, not the emotional ones the characters go through can feel restrictive.
Also, I like that it is a four point not three point structure as the 3 Act structure is really bizarre to me given that Act 2 is worth 50 percent in most films, so why not split it evenly?
Very good points! I am also more of a fan of this than the western models. I think it is important to ask yourself, do you enjoy western movies/books/tv shows more or less than eastern ones? If you prefer eastern ones, then this is the structure they are all thinking about when writing!
Just write it from your heart
Stop following structures so rigidly, that's the crux of your issue.
@@SilverInThePitchBlack That is a good point, there are plenty of stories that do their own thing and make it work!
I like this structure because it allows you to do a more 'episodic' style with a different problem in every installment, but yet it ultimately still leads to the resolution of one specific linear plot
This explains so much.
I love Battle Angel Alita, and when the movie came out, plenty of critics complained that the large parts of the movie lack plot, and that you see the face of the villain for the first time at the end of the movie.
And I was like: yeah, Im accustomed to japanese story telling, this is typcial japanese, I still like it.
Now that you explained the structure, it fits the movie perfectly!
in my home country it's in 3 steps named respectfully:
1. beginning
2. knot/plot
3. untie/ending
as in first you get introduced into the story and then you introduce a knot which is often a complication elements and the plot then lastly the conclusion
though it's mostly used for explaining short story and literatures
I see! Thank you for taking the time to share that! If you don't mind me asking, can I ask what country that is used in?
@@MonitorComics I think this might be used in spanish-speaking countries? I'm from Spain, and this person has used almost the literal translation to our steps for telling a story (inicio/begining, nudo/"knot" and desenlace/"untie" or conclusion.
Although this method is fairly common, used in many theatrical stories throughout the centuries, very similar to Freytag's pyramid.
oh apologies for the late reply
I'm from Mongolia and well our education system is heavily influenced by other countries so maybe we could've just directly translated the source material and used it to teach literature in middle school
I love how Mashle has a JRPG plot, you start with the sub director and end up punching god in the face
Oh, I didn't know that name. I did notice however, a "typical" structure of many animes, which I think is exactly this.
1) The first 2-3 episodes are often exposition heavy, closed stories. They focus on establishing the starting group of characters.
2) Then come a few longer chapters, that take 2 or 3 episodes to conclude. These have a more complex story and set the tone for the rest.
3) Finally, what you originally think is another part of 2) suddenly turns bigger and it turns out that all/most of the previous episodes are connected in a way that we did not see before. This chapter then takes around 4 episodes to conclude and ends with character development and maybe a weak plothook for following arcs.
Great observations! You are completely correct! That is how a lot of many establish their story arcs, making them progressively longer as the story goes on
Most authors try to nail the first three chapters because the "three chapter rule" is very real.
Another idea for writing differently/using kishotenketsu:
Use different plot structures for the main plot and subplots. Like, if kishotenketsu does character development and worldbuilding a bit better, but the five-act structure suits action a little better.... use one for plot and one for subplot, and you're drawing on both now!
Very true!
Always a great day when monitor comics post
Thanks for taking the time to watch!
Japan is very good in standardizing mostly everything on national level. No wonder we can predict the 12-episode anime structure as:
Ep 1-5 Intro
Ep 6-8 Something happens
Ep 9-10 Plot twist
Ep 11-12 Final Battle & resolution
that goes with kdrama too actually... i wouldnt be surprised if chinese drama follows what youve written too more or less
4:34 that’s the Sword of Omens and there is nothing you can say that would make me think otherwise.
When it comes to the plot I usually think for my manga what I would like to experience the most while reading it. Whenever I experience a great sensation while reading manga or watching anime I usually get inspiration from those moments and think of how I could use that in my own story. It works also with other source of entertainment, such as music. I've got countless ideas for my story from various different songs from many different genres. I want to make a story which has to offer a little bit of something to everyone in a way where it would be connected and make enough sense. All in all before consuming more of Eastern media my story was probably going in a more Western, heroic approach, where the focus was probably more on action. I guess that's why I named my story Heroes even tho it doesn't sound so original. Now I could say my story feels to me completly different from before, but I can still feel its original heroic spirit which I want to keep since it doesn't really bother the story for now. Thank you for making me even more aware of the plot making in both general and specifically my story! Now i realise that my plot focuses on everything from characters and actions to messages and world building and I am satisfied with that.
Bro trying to fill the minimum word requirement for the youtube essay video so hard lol
gotta hit the ten minute mark
Ive watch several of your video and always find that you are missing something in your manga analysis. Im about to comment that its kishotenketsu, but maybe I forgot or something. Glad you finally find it.
Kishotenketsu is so bizzare if all this time you only learning about western story structure, but when you actually try to understand manga from this lens, its all make sense.
To put it in my own word, Kishotenketsu is more like anecdotal story structure or like comedic beat, with its twist and punch line. In that way the best way to learn kishotenketsu is like the japanese do with the four panel gag manga.
Very great points!! I did only learn about Kishotenketsu recently through entering the Silent Manga Audition, they had a video about it on their website
I always knew there was a *reason* I perferred Korean movies, kdramas, anime, etc more than western stuff, but I couldn't put my finger on it
I always assumed it was just because they did their own thing and it was a cultural difference
I think most of my audience is also only aware of the western structures like the hero's journey, Freytag's pyramid, 3 act structure, etc because its what we are taught in school
Looking into kishotenketsu and researching it more made everything click as you said!
@@MonitorComics yeah I also learn it years ago from silent manga channel, the one you clip in the video
good luck with your story and other analysis!
Wait why am I just discovering THIS channel. I've been diving down deep into authortube to improve my writing, though I feel like my writing felt too western for my liking. I'm glad someone out there making tips specifically for my type of niche. For now, I aim to write a web novel before moving to web comic. Time to binge this channel
This is honestly just a random video youtube recommended to me and i didn't realize i needed this knowledge. Didn't know there was a term for it.
Glad you enjoyed the video! I try to cover all things related to making comics and manga, so if if there's anything else you are interested in learning, please let me know!
Everything you said can also be applied to the western structure. It's literally the same. Hero's journey, Harmon's Story circle (a distilled hero's journey) and the three act structure. All stories follow the same structure because everything needs a beginning, a middle, and an end, and we as human beings recognize something as a story _because_ of these basic structures. Everything else is flavor; on delivery and execution.
Couldn't have explained it better myself! The purpose of these videos was to highlight the different structures out there that people use, but they are all pretty similar!
Uh, did I just hear him say "western story structures such as The Hero's Journey"?
May you please do a video on how to balance a large cast of characters?
Already did! ruclips.net/video/0XbpF-6i-v4/видео.html&pp=ygUZbW9uaXRvciBjb21pY3MgbGFyZ2UgY2FzdA%3D%3D
I thought of a plot structure where you literally roll a dice and kill even the character who's really op/cool/badass.
Each character is made by different artist and they are literally battling each other with dice rolls. Oh.. what if naruto from Naruto just died in 7th episode. And now it's all about Sakura trying to get back sasuke. But plot twist, Sakura is orochimaru's daughter. And it was his plan all along. And that's when Kakashi decides to step in. But a literal mob damages his sharingan.
realised this is the EXACT (almost) structure i had planned out for the comic in my head, where portals open up in the sky and release monsters that kill people and are hunted down and killed by an organisation mc is part of. it starts off like that, then as the story goes on more is revealed and it's revealed that everything is part of a giant conspiracy and underground wars (wont say more in case i actually decide to create it), then there is a GIANT revelation and twist that fucks everything and everyone up and in the end everyone is scrambling to pick up the pieces and desperately trying to stop the incoming threat. have planned to maybe extend the last part by quite a bit but overall its susprisingly similar
edit: yhhhh sorry this won't happen
That story sounds like a pretty cool story and if you decide to voice it one day I’ll be there to listen 🤙🏾
@@yosoycheese9930 i was planning it to be a comic but you made me realise it could work well as an actual story, which i would actually be able to create as im not a very good drawer. sadly it would lose some of the effect that drawing has and i might have to compress the story a bit but writing it could work a lot better for me as i'm a good writer. i'll see what i will do with the story, thanks for showing interest lol
@@senarmstrongfanaccount There is always the option of teaming up with an artist, though it may be hard. Even as a novel though, I think I’d read that.
Its too late i might steal your idea already...action speak louder than words
@@Jazengamic tysm for giving me the motivation to start writing it already 😊 already have the big story beats planned out in my head. i'll probably mess up the ending though lol as i dont have a clear idea of what it will be, if that happens you can take over
thanks man i love the way you explanation.
Thanks for making this video and sharing this with us.
I would argue that this formula is not the reason a lot of eastern media seems better written. It's more that most western media in the last 20 years has been so bad. There was good western media for a long time, using many different formulas (including similar ones as this). Western media has just gone all in on "subverting expectations" and pushing agendas, rather than telling a good story. For the record, there's plenty of Japanese stuff written with this formula which is also lackluster, like say Golden Time. And there's Japanese stuff that uses a very traditional Hero's Journey or three act structure, like Toradora. What makes the good ones good is the same thing that made old western media good. Good characters with agency, good pacing, good set ups and good payoffs. In this way, you're right that the plot is less important. But that just points out you can use any plot formula. And that Kishotenketsu itself is not why things are good.
Valid points!
How wow it really was your next video
thank you so, so match. I've been practicing's kishotenketsu for a bit but didn't have a firm grasp on how to use it properly. thanks for the examples. I didn't know this was used in long story's.
I think naoki urasawa has nailed the kishotenketsu. Im reading 20th century boys and is actually insane how you can see he using it in the chapters and volumes. I think he's the one i can see more clearly using this structure
Maybe that's why I love anime so much cus they have amazing plot twist in almost every story lol
Can someone please better explain this to me??? I'm still not sure how this differentiates from western writing styles. In this video he says that kishotenketsu mainly consists of building characters and character relationships, but any well written story(western or not) is going to basically already do this, since you can't have a story without well written characters(if your story has characters). What I picked up from this video is that instead of having a fallling action (which usually comes right after the climax) they have a plot-twist and then the resolution. I'm still very confused, please explain?
It is pretty much the same as the Three Act Structure. At the end of the day, a story has a beginning, middle and end right.
These plot structures just help you visualize what that journey could look like in your story
A lot of western media is plot focused, of course not ALL of them, but a good amount of them. Take horror movies for example, you most likely remember the villain characters like Michael Myers, Freddy Kruger, The Nun, Jason Vorhees etc
But do you remember ANY of the main cast? Other movies like Insidious have memorable PLOTS, but I couldn't even tell you the main character's name
A lot of western stories tend to be like that. With Eastern stories though, there is more emphasis on the character writing
Take for example the worldwide success of Train to Busan and Parasyte. Both had VERY MEMORABLE casts of characters
With eastern stories, the plots are important too, but it doesn't have to be the "main thing." The easiest example to think of is slice of life anime, most are lighthearted day to day events. There are no major problems or conflict, its just the characters doing things
Kishotenketsu basically says you don't need a conflict to tell a story. If you have one great, but it isn't a huge focus in some eastern stories
@@MonitorComics Thank you for explaining, I understand better, just one more question if you don't mind me asking. What do you mean by "not all stories need a conflict"? I understand how slice of life wouldn't need a major conflict for the main character to overcome, but with a lot of the anime's that you mentioned/showed in your video, like chainsaw man and demon slayer, do have a conflict or some sort've challenge/goal for the main character to achieve and or overcome??? Also, I'm a storywriter too 😃 So how would I incorporate kishotenketsu into my story too? Since my story does have a main antagonist, it doesn't really have any major conflict or goal for the main character to achieve, well, I guess my protagonist's goal would be to defeat the antagonist and make the world a better place(since she's a superhero)
@@FishyFishSalmonFish It's kind of similar to Freytag's Pyramid in the sense that it has been modernized over time
Freytag's Pyramid used to always be about tragedy but nowadays people replace the tragedy part with "resolution" so it can apply to a lot of other stories
Kishotenketsu is similar in the sense you CAN have a conflict if you want, but it is not required.
With Demon Slayer specifically you could think of it like
Ki (Intro): Tanjiro is introduced, we see his normal everyday life with his family. Story begins when a demon kills his family
Sho (Development): Tanjiro becomes a demon slayer, meets allies like Zenitsu and Inosuke. Fights various demons on missions. The demon slayer corps are explored when the hashira are introduced
Ten (Twist) This could be many instances. The first being the reveal that Nezuko is a demon who still has human emotions, Tanjiro unlocking the hinokami kagura, etc. Any reveal that adds complexity to the story would count as this
Ketsu (Conclusion) This can be seen in major story arcs and battles where conflicts are resolved and there's closure
Like the other plot structures, kishotenketsu can be used for individual story arcs rather than the entire story.
Also like every plot structure, you do not need to abide to it completely, doing your own thing sometimes helps the story
@@MonitorComics Thank you so much, I understand now 😊 !!!!!
@@MonitorComics Why would you lie to your audience and say it's different in the video but be honest in this comment and say that they're effectively the same?
Excellent video and i do prefer anime and manga over western movies and current comics.😅
Was it before they went Woke or was it during the First Ironman movie.
Based
@@arnowisp6244 Honestly, I want to say after Iron Man movie.
@@MonitorComics Based on I'll written stories like the latest Peter Pan, crew cartoon called Velma, The mockery of Classic Disney films with live action ones. She-Hulk may I say more at this point?
Recently I've felt trapped using the three act structure, which I normally use. I also absolutely hate Freytag's Pyramid, it's always seemed way too linear. This sounds much freer and interesting and I'm excited to try and use it in my next work!
Could always just look at OLDER works. Like premodern.
Me, I don't pigeon hole any of my work into any kind of pre-made structure. I just think of the story I want to tell and tell it. Then I think about things like structure and theme only after I've laid the basic plot out. These things exist to serve the story, not the other way around.
Man, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you're rigidly trying to follow a specific story structure. Trust me when I sat that this will not make a difference, it's still just another story structure to achieve the same endgoal as Freytag or Hero's Journey or Three Act or what will you. Telling the story you want to tell often already loosely follows a "structure," because stories need structure to make sense, so don't worry about trying to cram your story into a predetermined structure. Just write, brother. Drop the story's beats where you think they oughta be. The guy above me puts it VERY WELL.
@@TheGreatJinx unfortunately I can’t have zero structure when writing, or I write myself into a corner or a marathon with no end constantly. I have some neurodivergency issues that keep me from just writing or going out on a limb. Thank you so much for the advice, though! I have found that this structure is loose enough for me to “not have a structure” but still keep my plot line intact ^^
@Harudodo I'm glad you've found something that works ^^
Wow. My mind was blown. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video!
Great video!!! :D
something i never really have seen elaborated anywhere is how its applied chapter to chapter and within a volume. great video i always click
“Instead it emphasizes the development of characters and relationships”
So…like Dan harmons story circle
A lot of these story structures are similar to each other. Dan Harmon's Story circle and kishotenketsu originated in different parts of the world though
@@MonitorComics
Good point
Great Video, but I would like to clarify on the Subject. Kishotenketsu is a Character driven structure but its not void of conflict. Instead of focusing on a Character's External Struggle its focuses on he/her's Internal Struggle, which is why its Character Driven. Hajime Isayama used Kishotenketsu in the first season of AOT which lead to Eren being way less interesting, where in the 3rd season Erens internal struggle get's resovled through resolving his external struggle. If you are writing a Manga then use Dan Harmons Story Structure while Having you Character Focus on his internal struggle which is what most modern manga do. Since the 4 act structure is just hero's journey but condensed.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts! That was a good explanation!
Maybe that’s why I always feel a bit bothered by some mangas/animes endings (cuz they feel abrupt or sudden) but don’t have any issues with the rest of the story- I personally think this is an interesting story structure but not something I like because after a twist, I’d prefer to see how it actually plays out and effects all the characters and setting especially if it’s a long form story with a big/serious twist. I get annoyed sometimes when I read stories where the twist is revealed and the story ends quickly afterwards, especially if the twist is of a villain and they have hardly any time to do anything before they’re defeated. I think I’d probably prefer a mix of the two if anything but I wouldn’t rlly call the western standard story structure boring or predictable since I’ve never really found them to be like that by default but maybe that’s just me
I think you explain the structure quite poorly.
The main idea of the 4 part structure is in the 3rd part, the twist.
Let's compare the time machine movie, Back To The Future, and your example, Kimi no Nawa (Your Name)
Back To The Future has the standard 3 part structure. First, a kid and a mad professor traveled back in time using their car. Second, developments and conflict happened, and they were stuck in the past. Lastly, they concluded the story with a happy ending and everyone back home with a new character development.
Now, let's see Kimi no Nawa.
First, you were introduced a couple of normal high schooler, one of them live in a rural area, and the other is from Tokyo.
Second, the development started. They started switching their body, living the most opposite life they could never think of. They also started falling im love.
Third, the twist happened. (this is the most important part) The girl he switched body with was actually dead all this time. This part is why so many Japanese stories are very interesting.
Lastly, the fourth part: conclusion. Unlike the 3 part structure, Kishotenketsu has to somehow merge both of the developed story and the twist in one satisfying conclusion. In Kimi no Nawa, the boy had to travel back in time while losing the memory of the girl in order to save the city. That's the conclusion that the author wrote.
Now, do you see the difference in how the western and the eastern write their stories?
P.S (if not obvious) You can't just rely on the Kishotenketsu structure to make a good story like the japanese did, you also need to be creative.
Excellently explained, thank you.
oh my thank you so much when you explain your name i jumped up from my chair realizing how good this is, thank you so very much
❌ Old boring Western stories: Setup- > Conflict- > Resolution (Twist included)
✅ KiShOtEnKeTsU: Ki (setup) -> Sho (conflict) -> Ten (twist) + Ketsu (resolution)
Idk man it seems basically the same as a western 3 act structure. Like the examples described could fit under either. Came expecting some kind of interesting writing technique, instead I just learned what they call these common features in Japan lol.
EDIT: I think you also misunderstand what 'conflict' means in a writing sense. It doesn't exclusively refer to literal conflict my guy. Conflict is an integral part of character writing and is a driving force in the stories you described.
The main difference between Kishotenketsu and The Three Act structure IS the lack of conflict in some stories. For example, the slice of life genre is incredibly popular in Japan, most SoL stories don't have any "real conflicts"
Similar to other plot structures though, you can apply these to other genres, change it up a bt, and make it work for most stories
Eastern stories tend to be more character driven than plot driven, that's why a zombie movie like Train To Busan is so incredibly acclaimed, its because of the character writing
In contrast to western films like World War Z where it's literally hollywood only caring about the zombies and action
I am aware of what conflict is and how there can be internal or external conflict, give me a little credit here haha
@@MonitorComics I haven't read that much slice of life manga but from what I have seen there is usually at least some emotional conflict either between characters or within them. I agree that it is less intense and almost always at a smaller scale but I think it is still an important part of the story.
I also agree that eastern storytelling is (emphasis) generally more character driven, but I don't think there is necessarily a connection between character focused writing and writing with no/dramatically reduced conflict. That is, I think conflict is inseparably tied to both character and plot driven writing.
Personally, I think World War Z sucks ass because it is a terribly executed movie plagued by production issues rather than the writing philosophy of its creators. For a counter example, I think Death Note is also a very plot-centric narrative, to wildly different effect.
Basically what I am trying to say is that I think you could easily write an eastern style story with a western structure and vice versa, because these structures are fundamentally similar.
Interesting to discuss though!
@@jimjimson6208 I do agree with your last point, all of these plot structures are universal and essentially "do the same thing"
Some people just prefer one over the other for whatever reason, that's why there's so many of them. At the end of the day it's just "make a story with a beginning middle and end"
To your point about Slice of Life, I think you are mostly referring to one with the Drama tag or Romance tag as well. Slice of Life stories like K-ON, Nichijou, etc have basically no conflict, and if there is a "problem" in the chapter it is easily resolved without any issue
In K-ON, it is literally just girls making a band and playing music, there are no rivals or drama or issues, they just write songs and perform every chapter
With Death Note, while it is plot focused, I'd argue that everyone remembers the dynamic between L and Light very well. The series felt like a character study specifically for Light, he went from a normal kid to a serial killer to a literal psychopath
@Monitor Comics I think the argument can be that rather than conflict being absent, it's simply de-emphasized and/or just more subtle. More internal by nature of priority being put on characters development. But perhaps my impression stems from not really understanding what "ten" is. For all intent and purpose, it doesn't sound much different from "conflict" in other narrative structures tbh but that may have to do with me not really grasping the nuaince of what "ten" is and how it differs from "conflict".
Depending on the answer I think I could point to some western examples of this narrative structure tho (perhaps without the realization of the authors)
@@fatalblue Ten is the twist ending, the easiest I can think of where this is used often is 4 koma manga. Each panel represents a different part of the structure (ki, sho, ten, ketsu)
i always wondered why anime felt so different than wester animation, thanks for the video
I have already learned of Kishotenketsu from the Literature Devil on his video about it. I recommend his video to learn even more about it. I have also been using this story telling structure with my own stories in DeviantArt. It is my favorite story telling structure.
6:25 damn.... watching your video and remembering the twist "Monster" has is so amazing
Which is?
how is this different from all the other ones you mentioned in the beginning? I know nothing about all these, but all seem similar to me. Beginning -> something -> resolution. But really thank you for making this video. I didn't know that there are names for all these techniques. Very interesting and informative.
It's not really that different. He also makes a few interesting claims regarding there being no need for conflict, but that doesn't check out: Every story needs conflict, both internal and external. Even episodic, slice-of-life comedies have conflict, though not in the swords-out sense.
How do i find MY audience?
I always had the doubts that my stories could've been praised if it were created in the 2000's cuz all of my works basically embody everything from that era of entertainment media (80's and 90's as well). I'm just a kid who enjoys all out action stories yet I'm too scared to share my own with modern audiences cuz my creations don't have LoTR, AtLA or modern entertainment levels of complexity. And I'll say it again; I'm a kid who enjoys the simple and cheesy side of entertainment. It's not that i don't wanna share, I'm just scared that i might attract the wrong people
I’m not monitor comics of course but I do have advice. However trends in anime tend to revert back to old trends. The difference is to add something new with a twist. For example, a strongman going against magic isn’t new in anime but Magic and Muscle puts a spin on it by focusing more on the trope combative wise.
Here’s my suggestion. Take what you like (Let’s use Tsunderes as an example) and display it differently. For example, Tsunderes are romanticized but what if someone talked about how much it would actually suck dating one irl?
My advice is take advantage of nostalgia. The typing sounds of a virtual keyboard are from a typewriter made over a 100 years ago. There is no other purpose to the sound other than nostalgic emotions. That is also why phone cameras still have a shutter sound, it was implemented on purpose for nostalgia that is part of human nature. If you have an art style that is unique and nostalgic of early 2000's than that a bonus. Also another advice is connections. That is why so many artists go to colleges like CALarts or SCAD despite it being waaaay overpriced. One way to make connections without going to those expensive colleges though is just by helping out other artists and writers with their dream projects.
@@Ditteauxessay VERY TRUE. I love that example you gave, might have to write that one down LOL
There is no "right answer," when you are trying to be a comic artist, you need to go where the readers are. Right now that is webcomic platforms like Webtoons and Tapas. MangaPlus Creators is HUGE right now and the best place I would recommend. With platforms though, you cant be sure WHO is going to read your work, there are always going to be people who don't like it, but you might find some who DO
Even if you go the traditional publisher route, their job is to just get your work in front of an audience. Its hard to "cherry pick" who gets to read it, unless you paywall your content and advertise a specific way. For example you could lock chapters on Patreon and advertise everywhere "to read a story about ____. please support me here"
Hopefully that helps a bit!
First, make sure you can even make it. Not just put out whenever. Make a time frame of when you can finish it. It's a good means of understanding your limits.
Damn... That... Really explains things. Thanks!
I think there is a difference between "kishotenketsu" and "the hero's journey." However I don't like how the video describes it because it makes it confusing and black and white. I think "kishotenketsu" definitely exists in a form in the west and vice verse with the hero's journey in Japan.
For example, I think Harry Potter feels a lot like kishotenketsu because its story revolves around a cast of characters and contained stories from book to book. Although the first Harry Potter has elements of the hero's journey, it hardly follows it and less so in the following books. Basically, the hero's journey is the story structure of an unremarkable person being introduced (either physically or metaphorically) to a remarkable world (again, usually physical but can be metaphorical) and experiencing change that is brought back with them at the end of the story to their unremarkable world.
On the other side, Japan is not exempt from the hero's journey, for example the show Bleach is a pretty popular use in Japanese animation. Although overall it might fall under "kishotenketsu," I think it's similar to Harry Potter in that it uses the hero's journey a lot for its individual story arcs. In fact, it does this FOUR times before its climactic final arc (Substitute Shinigami arc, Soul Society arc, Hueco Mundo arc, and Fullbringer arc all see the protagonist being exposed to a foreign and unique world that he must travel through before then returning to his regular life). There is more nuance to it than just east vs west, and I think this is because both types of storytelling have a time and place. In a sense I think Japanese shows and manga tell "kishotenketsu" as the video talks about, however. With arc-to-arc stories similar to Harry Potter, it establishes a kind of norm for the series to relax in to. Where a structure like the hero's journey covers the most exciting part about the characters' lives, it seems "kishotenketsu" is more concerned with covering their overall lives. The real climax comes when that life is interrupted or changed in a big way, which is the "twist." This comes in Harry Potter during the Deathly Hallows when the wizarding world is subjugated by Voldemort, and the main trio is sent on the run.
Think of a manga like Naruto compared to the book series Lord of the Rings. In Naruto, Konoha is the home village of the protagonists, and it's where you expect them to be. They spend most of their time simply living their despite the many story arcs they go through. The Lord of the Rings has no Konoha. Instead, the story takes us on a journey through Middle Earth where the protagonists see the wonders of the world. Frodo's in-world Konoha, the Shire, is just the unremarkable world that he leaves behind and then returns to with his new development from the journey. For Naruto , I think kishotenketsu exists because its written not about its story arcs but around its story arcs, where characters are learning and changing. Generally I think these stories also have a sense that there is something bigger going on than these smaller story arcs, like in Harry Potter where every arc and its story ultimately comes to the point of Voldemort's takeover of the wizarding world, which seems like it was the larger plot all long.
So, I think the video is very flawed in its analysis but it does make an interesting point by labeling this story structure of "kishotenketsu." I think even though I wrote a very long comment about it I still am barely scratching the surface of the intricacies of how this storytelling technique works and compares to other types. But, if I could attempt to summarize what I'm thinking about, I would say that the hero's journey is a way to write stories where characters are taken on a journey of conflict and character progression, while kishotenketsu is a way to write long-term stories with an underlying sense of greater purpose, whether that be the plot's climax or the development and progression of the characters. Basically, the hero's journey is better for movies while kishotenketsu is better for tv shows. I think that's where the video failed, because it proposed this idea of story structure while taking it at face value and not analyzing their relations to each other. He seems really good at researching but not so much understanding of writing.
I've already written long enough but I wish I've proposed enough thoughts to help develop our understanding of story structure. Thank you to this video for bringing up the topic, although I wish it was framed more to the open idea of discussion rather than a black and white east vs west kind of dilemma. I think it doesn't do the topic justice. Regardless, I think writing out my thoughts has helped by clear up what I think about these two better as well as sparked future thought into the subject.
I want to talk about this since I'm such a huge manga fan and I want to describe what I like about stories where we spend time with the characters and their lives, simultaneously I love tv shows like breaking bad, avatar, the sopranos, and of course plenty of sitcoms that do similar things
Thanks for this explanation. I was wondering if you are writing a novel series, could I used kishotenketsu or not? You did is for long form like tv show not movies (3acts )?
After being a fan of manga and anime since 1995, I finally found an excellent explanation for my attraction to them instead of western comics. Thanks
Holy fuck when 1/3rd of the video is an ad
Thanks for this video
Based on your example, the structure is identical to western structures. You have characters with a preexisting problem/status, and then an inciting incident, then they try to solve the problem/mystery caused by that incident, and then there's a resolution based on the success or failure of that attempt. That's the definition of classic story telling structure.
Amazing analysis
Awesome video. I walked away inspired to learn more!
It’s the same structure
As western story structure
Only the application is different
I wish more stories was truly focused on the characters and everything being a consequence of their actions and morals.
The simple plot of a boy rising to stop an evil king. The king is evil, and that's it. This doesn't work as well as if he has a motive or a reason.
That it's not outside forces that makes him who he is.
Take Hamlet for example. A king is a social position humanity made. But any position of power could be similar.
So have the antagonist build himself the circumstances that let him make himself a king, not that the title of king dictated it.
When magic is involved. Make it the character's exploration of magic that makes the world and their consequences.
I hate when worlds has predefined rules and systems that can't be argued against. Like angels and demons.
That leaves little for an actual plot revolving around people as we already know what's good or bad.
But if things can change then suddenly a single ruler can be very interesting when he isn't as logical or absolute.
If an army approaches and he refuses to either escape or defend.
Then why. Cause he has his motives.
If the world had set rules they'd have said: This land is good and must be protected, thus the king's job is to protect it.
But without rules, what if the country and duty is changed in the king's view?
That affects everyone as they have also different ideas of country and duty. But who to follow, and why?
Growth of exploration to find your own. Not grow to fit a mold.
I've noticed this structure appearing a lot in recent, mainstream series, which at first I thought was a bid to stand out from the classic shonen structure, but now I understand it has much deeper roots in Japanese media.
This may be what I need in my writing, because my plot attempts have NOT been working for me at all.
İve been writing since İ was like... FOUR and İ never used ör liked the hero's journey. The main reason was because İ thought things didnt go out that was. İ always tried to dövüş on my characters and their relationships. At first it was hard because when you do that, its hard to keep the narative going but the End results are fascinating. İ think this method really helps you use it to the Max.
Really good video , i didn't know about this plot structure , i'm a huge anime fan and gamer
For years my favorite game was The Witcher 3 i have 500h and bought it twice and then i played the Yakuza games , Yakuza 0 was my first game in the series in 2018
Now TW3 is not even in my top 10 , i was incredibly impressed with the Yakuza games about 7 games in the serie are in my top 10
Recently i played Fire Emblem 3 houses and that's another game that impressed me , huge fan of lot of Japanese games and anime
Having a 2-minute sponsorship segment in a 7min video is a bit...... Like, it was a good video, but the proportions were a bit off. Maybe flesh the video out to 10min if your going to spend 2 minutes on sponsorship.
never seen your name but even tho you spoiled it the premise hooks me. Also the Kishotenketsu method seems way better in my opinion as is probably what makes japanese media stand out. Last question,how hard is it to create a manga without any specific story structure in mind?
Not better, just different. Some stories simply lend themselves to different structures. If someone was immersed in character driven stories then a plot driven story may stand out to them more.
@@noneofyourbusiness7965 ok yea thats a better way to interpret it
I try to think of story structures as a starting point, it gives you a light roadmap of what *should* happen to make it well written. Following it 1/1 will make it feel generic and like everything else though, so many writers experiment and do their own thing. Take a story like Attack On Titan for example, it is told out of chronological order. That is one way to change things up and make it interesting!
@@noneofyourbusiness7965 Perfectly explained!!
its not a special manga writing method or "japanese" specialty, its just a general story telling structure to make it more interesting. And its nothing different, even my middle school teacher taught us to write essays that way, so you could focus more on your story.
Your video comes off as pretty petty considering that it seems to place eastern writting on a pedestal when the number 1 complaint about most if not all anime is that it's generally poorly pased and ends on a very dull note. Some of the best written and most interesting anime/manga aren't even featured in the video, something like a Perfect blue or Berserk, which they themselves don't really fit in kishotenketsu, which just seems like a fancy japanese word for Syd Field's paradigm, maybe miniplot with a twist in the end is more fitting, but whatever.
You made a very big generalization there by saying "the number 1 complaint about most if not all anime is it is poorly paced and ends on a very dull note"
I'd love for you to provide a source to that statement.
Regardless, I think many of the series you may be thinking of that have lackluster endings is due to the publishing culture in Japan. Manga starts in a magazine, many that publish weekly. Every week artists don't know if their series is getting axed at the next meeting
Many stories get cancelled after a few chapters, others after a few volumes. The opposite problem is often true, the creator of Death Note has stated that he wanted to end the story after volume 7 but was told to continue the story because it was popular. That in turn led to the controversial second half of the story
Perfect Blue IS a good movie. I tend to avoid anime originals though and try to speak only about manga series or anime with manga/light novel source material because most of my audience is comic artists
Berserk is also an incomplete story, which is the main reason I don't talk about it too often. Plot structures are built on a beginning middle and end, so I don't see a point in talking about something without an ending, at least in a video about plot structure
Lol, its the exact same structure with a different emphasis. You went bite by bite for normal story structure. Introduction (exposition/call to action/character establishment), Development (Conflict/Character development/Challenge), Twist(Big Fall/Tragedy/Revelation/Plot), Resolution(Return/Fall/Catharsis/Aftermath). I would say the major difference here is that the twist is represented as a singular moment in this simplified graph compared to the several moments in a typical three act structure. Thus instead of having a build up of highs and lows, you have one high and one low. You can also say it doesn't have a focus on conflict, but that's only from the perspective of confrontational conflict, not conflict as a challenge or emotional aspect. While a character developmental twist might be more apparent in this structure it is not the structure itself that allows it, but the inherent collective bias towards a narrative direction that drives it. It is not western bias that conflict is strictly confrontational whether physically or otherwise, it is corporate bias, one that now dominates much of media. Direct conflict provides simplified answers and desires that grant corporate entities to end with a bang without seeking out great storytellers. Thus spewing out regurgitated endless repetition for profit. You see this more and more in eastern development now as well as corporate bias demands faster turnover and thus leads to more cheap direct conflict (Twist/conflicts). The reason the character development stands out in Japanese manga and Anime though is because they still produce an environment where the artist/creator has a much larger say in their work and is able to make a profit from it. This fosters new creatives that have the ability to fully bring out character development without the need for direct conflict and thus follow typical story structure in unorthodox means. Thus while I will say that Kishotenketsu is certainly a development by eastern culture and it lends itself to episodic story telling which is why you see it used so much in anime and manga. It is not something entirely to itself, but a separate but similar development of design. Similar to how there are Pyramids across the globe whether you want to call them ziggurats or pyramids or mounds, humans naturally develop the technology eventually. Its the same here. The structure is the same, it is just a different emphasis and largely a difference in commercial success/exposure. You can still see this structure a lot in western literature without it being eastern inspired, but its much rarer to see it in episodic shows or comics in western media simply because western economic structure doesn't foster the creative freedom for artist like it used to
Thank, it's easier for me to predict the story now.
6:28 truly the peak of plot structure and storytelling
I don't really get the difference of Kishotenketsu and the Three Act Structure..
Like in both we have :
1 Status Quo
2 Distruption of status Quo
3 Climax\Twist
4 Resolution\Conclusion
They are pretty much the same. Kishotenketsu basically just says "you dont need a conflict or a climax to tell a good story"
The easiest example I can think of is slice of life anime where "nothing really happens." You don't go into them expecting a extraordinary plotline or anything crazy, its just characters doing things
At the end of the day a story has a beginning, middle and end. All of these plot structures are similar in many ways with slight differences
Great now can you release a video actually showing me the difference between this and western storytelling
There aren't that many differences. I made this video because it's another story structure that exists (There's also videos of 3 act structure, freytag's pyramid, story circle, etc on here)
The main difference would be that "twist" component. It's most obvious in 4koma manga because it's usually the "punchline" of a joke
But for more serious stories, it is sort of like the climax but more of a turning point for the plot
Thank you for the video!
I think the definition of Kishotenketsu you said was right, however, correct me if i’m wrong, i think the samples you show in the video are not the correct samples for kishotenketsu story structure?
Kishotenketsu are a story structure without conflict and rely on plot twist, mostly found in 4-koma, like kobo-chan manga, newspaper and social media comic strips, mostly found in slice of life story. The ghibli one was right, but most of shonen manga shown here using conflict and resolution in their story just like the western story structure. Many Japanese mangakas also influenced with western storytelling.
Manga that using kishotenketsu structure that pop up in my mind is adachi mitsuru’s works.
But tbh i’m still figuring out how kishotenketsu works too, so i’m not sure if this is accurate. It would be good if you quote some legitimate sources to help us understand better!
I think you are more on the right path!! When I was reading about Kishotenketsu I was also confused by that part because a lot of modern manga (shojo, seinen, shonen) follow a story structure WITH a conflict
Like you said, 4-koma are usually credited when talking about Kishotenketsu, I realized that more when I made a video specifically about yonkoma
I do believe that was my mistake in this video, so I apologize that that part was confusing. Thank you for adding your own thoughts and clarifying!
3:21 winded me. I was not expecting to see that manga again
I think a focus on both is important. A good plot is important to keep everything believable and realistic. Same goes for the characters. Focusing too much on one and ignoring the other is a mistake.
Maybe it’s just me but there a Kishotenketsu sense in the animated Avatar: The Last Airbender. Like it was never really about defeating the fire lord, but it was always Aang’s journey as well everyone else’s journey.
Thanks you for this! I finally found a good plot structure for my story! :D
It must be because I grew up reading manga and watching anime, but it seems Ive already been using Kishotenketsu in my writing all my life without realising as I already do those things that were mentioned. I guess I instinctively learnt it naturally from the Japanese stories I consumed.
This! 😂 Same here. Whenever I want to plot out a story, I look back at the animes and mangas that inspired me, and try out some of the techniques
I might use this
thing: 😒
thing, japan: 🤩
Thanks Man!
Thank you for taking the time to watch!
I love how everything in Japan is like, "oh that's how they do it usually? Ok." *Proceeds to do something else*
That's... not at all how it happened. That's just the impression you got from a western perspective.
Still remember the first time I heard of this concept was through the titles of the 4 seasons of Durarara.
The earliest exposure of Kishotenketsu was probably in Gurren Lagann. Really messed me up
please... maybe give a spoiler alert ahead if you gonna use any movie as an example. I literally hadn't watched Kimi no Nawa and it's on my list, now I don't feel like watching it anymore cuz to watch it when I'm already told about the twist, the feeling won't be the same. The surprise element is taken away 😅 I'm not mad or anything, if anything, this video is very informative and I thank you for that. It's just, it would help if there's a spoiler alert at the beginning of the video. Huhuhu
I still don't understand how this isn't the same as a conflict-resolution model.
What do you think about episodic manga? Like for example Osamu Tezuka’s Black Jack? Like how do you tell an effective, comprehensive story in 20 or so pages? And how do you establish continuity in an episodic manga?
I'm agree, i saw Dr Black Jack is an interesting manga i want to read it and sadly i can't found physical manga with translation T_T
@@karistartnotenough6358 the first three volumes are available in English. The rest are OOP and really expensive.
Holy shit so that's why the three cours of Durarara!! x2 were titled Sho, Ten, and Ketsu
I feel like you didn't really explain _how_ this narrative structure is any different. You just said it is, several times, for several minutes. The only salient fact is "characters are more important than conflict". But that isn't even part of this structure, so it seems like an anecdotal observation or opinion even.
The literal difference is the lack of conflict part. That is the part that sets it apart from other story structures. Like everything else though, it's been adapted to fit most stories, even stories WITH clear conflict. That adaptation part is similar to how Freytag's Pyramid was originally intended for tragedies with its final part being "catastrophe" but it's been modernized and changed to "resolution" to fit more stories
The other literal difference is this originated in Japan, Korea, and apparently china according to one commenter. That's the main reason I made a video on it, it's just another thing that exists
YES it is similar to some western ones, but that's not on me, that's on whoever made it. At the end of the day a story has a beginning, middle, and end so any story structure is going to feel similar
Hopefully that clears up some of your confusion!
you have to ad "Yami" to the last 5th panel (ref: sayonara zetsubou sensei)
I just accidentally got all of your name spoiled for me cause i wasnt paying attention and then he explained it all T_T
Wait... how is a intro-development-twist-conclusion any different? isn't that how 90% of works do?
that's the basic idea. Most plot structures are essentially the same idea but with different names and extra steps
I feel this is also true for single arcs inside one story. I'll take the first Dr. Stone arc as an example (so spoiler warning if you wanna watch it and haven't yet). Ki is: establishing the Stone World situation, Sho is: making the revival fluid and rescuing Yuzuriha, Ten is: Tsukasa being evil and Ketsu is: Senku and Taiju going different ways to accomplish different goals.