I wanna put in a word for the manipulative friendzone guys. I've often hit it off with a girl, taken my shot and been rejected, then denied her request to remain friends. The key misunderstanding here is that this is not a ploy to gain anything from her. The girls I end up falling for are awesome people who I'd love to be friends with. However, I can't, for my own mental health. I can't see this person and vibe with them and constantly think, I want more from them. This is not a sexual desire (tho it can be too), it's a deeply romantic one. It's not that I pretended to be your friend to get to have sex. The friendship was genuine, feelings arose, and now I need more and can't continue like this. There is no ultrerior motive, this is just the sad facts. Edit: This comment keeps spawning a lot of engagement and interesting conversations, so I thought I'd give an update. So first off, I didn't mention that I HAVE reconnected with some of my former crushes, some of who are in relationships, and we have very nice and meaningful friendships. It just takes a lot of time to process these feelings and get rid of them. Second, with my most recent crush, I actually tried precisely what Dr K recommended. After a few weeks of meeting in a group environment, I noticed feelings arousing. I spoke to her about it and she was very relived and glad to have it in the open, but shot me down and said she hoped we can continue as friends. I said I'm actually cool with that, thinking I'll stick it out, either until she develops feelings or until I get interested in someone else. Whether we end up as friends or partners, I'll be fine with both. Well, that failed miserably. I was keeping up my end of the bargain, treating her like any other friend and still going on dates with other women. However, the friendship was still very weird, because she kept holding me at arm's length, reaching out on her own but shutting me down every time I offered to hang out. I know that's not what she intended, but I felt like a sort of toy that you can play with whenever you want, but it itself doesn't get any say. She liked me enough to spend time with me on her own terms, but still had no trust that I knew to respect her boundaries and wouldn't make an advance if I got the right opportunity. Sorry, that's not a real friendship and I don't need this. The whole experience was ultimately very draining and not worth it, but if anyone thinks I did something wrong here, I'm curious to know.
I think that this statement is highly underrated. I had a very close male friend, we started dating, it wasn't really working for him, he wanted to go back to being friends and I could not do it. I did not think there was any way I could be a part of his life now and not be embroiled in jealousy, neediness and insecurity, and begin to behave like a total psycho. so the friendship ended immediately irrepairably forever the day we decided to date. It is unkind and unempathetic to expect that men who are generally starved of love and affection, will never develop romantic feelings for a female who provides them with that. Ironically in my case it was me, the woman, who got friendzoned, but the truth is that he confused the feelings of famial love with romantic love because he barely ever experienced familial love in his life at all. So he wanted to date me until he realised that what he really wished was that I was his mom or older sister. I think the common answer here is actually the difficult to accept reality that men in general are extremely emotionally damaged from a world that does not care about their feelings. The little girl who falls off her bike and scrapes her knee is rushed on by adults asking if she is ok and pampering her with hugs and kisses ... The little boy in the exact same situation is ignored by most adults, and one will come up to him and tell him its not so bad, its only a little scrape and big boys don't cry, so dust yourself off and get back on your bike. All of this pain on both sides of the gender spectrum can be simply boiled down to multigenerational male trauma, which is ALL of our responsibility to heal, women raise men too, not just fathers, statistically more men are raised by women. This means that mothers raise boys to be devoid of self-love. Women play a role in creating the unempathetic misogynists, this needs to change.
@mikacakes Thanks, that was really nice to hear. I do want to add that women shouldn't be thinking all men who develop crushes in a friendhip are just starved for affection (not saying you do). I've felt deeply connected to and cared by women I have platonic relationships with. What you said might read to some women who don't want guys' attention that they can't show them this kind of caring. And truth is, it definitely works, and it's not their responsibility. But the fewer women take those bullets, the more men are isolated from a healthy gender dynamic. And if you're capable of setting boundaries, VERY few guys will not respect them
I feel like the key phrase on this topic in the interview is „Is there going to be something more or am I wasting my time?“ at 45:42. She is not talking about a situation where people developed a genuine friendship and one of them caught feelings and ended the friendship because of that hurts, which is a completely valid situation. “Am I wasting my time?“ implies „The only reason I approached you is because I wanted a relationship/sex, I don’t care about you as a person.“ It implies premeditation as in he started the friendship with that goal in mind, it implies that the only value that person sees in spending time with her is to get in her pants. Which is quite manipulative and malicious as it means that every nice experience and deep talk with that person was an act. It’s not something you would say if you genuinely cared about the other person. Again I’m not trying to discredit your feelings here. Thats a shitty situation you found yourself in and I feel you, but I think you and Anita are talking about different situations.
@@mailysablubb9207 I 100% agree if the guy said it and meant it that way. That's an unambiguously shitty thing to say. But she uses this case as a representative for her rejection of dudes, which I just don't think it is.
This has completely nailed it on the head. I couldn't figure out what was deeply bothering me when Anita was talking about 'the friendzone' and it is exactly this
I went to a gender segregated school and a family of all women. I'm in my 40s now and realizing the subtle ways I never learned to see men as people. We were taught to see men, instead as just provider-aggressor-objects to seek out to fill some missing puzzle piece in a fantasy vision sold to us. It's fascinating to think about all the ways the segregation causes this on either side.
This reminds me of scenes in certain books and television shows (and even in real life!) where an older woman will instruct a younger one about how to "deal with" men. About how to manipulate him and make him think that he's doing what he wants but he's really following her. But always do it carefully because the man is a volatile entity who may erupt and then all is lost if that happens. I know that a lot of these scenes take place in settings where women had little to no rights (thus why the characters had to resort to manipulation and subterfuge) but it always struck me as so incredibly toxic, the same way red pill/Tate instructions are. I do think men and women need a deeper understanding of each other because without that our human instinct to see anything different than us as an enemy will ravage our relationships.
They can really be brutal sometimes. I saw a girl vibing to some Kesha and I tapped her on the shoulder and smiled. Asking if she was liking the music. She looked at me and glared, then gave me a snobby 'No'. Not in the way that she was responding to my question. But in that she was rejecting me as a whole. Shame, I like some Kesha, and her interest in it is what made me want to talk to her.
@@TheReapergod36 the thought of “rejecting me as a whole” is harmful mindset and often untrue. From what I can tell you approached a stranger and tried to initiate a conversation. That’s not a bad thing at all and the fact you left her alone when you realized she wasn’t interested is great. You respected her boundaries. But her rejecting conversation with you is not rejecting you as a person. She doesn’t know you, she doesn’t know your personality, interests, flaws, dreams, etc. She didn’t reject you but a random stranger. It is very likely that she doesn’t dislike you personally but rather she just didn’t want to interact with anyone at the moment. It is likely if any other stranger interacted at with her at the time she would have given the same response. There are so many reasons why people don’t want to talk to another person all the time and you have no reason to think that who you are as a person is the reason why you were rejected. Don’t let these small things drag you down. Everyone is different and life is unpredictable. Keep doing your best in the world and don’t let your own assumptions bring you down. Your worst critic is yourself and don’t let you get yourself down.
I'd feel better if I got rejected by a close friend-- at least they were spending time with me for other reasons. But a stranger, who barely knows you and won't give you the benefit of the doubt, or even the time of day? A lot harder to externalize.
There’s so many dr k interviews with people who share this mindset. If literally every woman rejects you there’s obviously things you need to change that you’re oblivious to. The actions of others don’t reinforce our self image, we use the actions of others to justify the self image we already have, or want.
But strangers are obviously more likely to reject you than someone you know. Put yourself in their shoes. Some rando comes up to you and hits on you, possibly when you’re busy or preoccupied. More importantly, you know nothing about them. You don’t know what their motives are, if they’re a good person, or even if they have a personality compatible with yours. Why would you automatically say yes to them? Even if they’re really attractive. If a very attractive woman that I didn’t know came up to me and started flirting, I’d probably think she was either trying to sell me something or I was being pranked. Not because I don’t think I’m good enough for her, but because that behaviour is out of the norm.
I think the reason men feel rejected when asking out a girl has nothing to do with actual rejection but is more to do with the vulnerability that comes with admitting you like someone in a potentially platonic or romantic way. I think that's what a lot of the other comments want Anita to understand. Edit: Coming from a girl who asked her boyfriend out and found it bloody scary.
That's actually really interesting! Goes back to the point they talked about earlier, where being emotional vulnerability is more difficult for most men.
@@ethosterros9430 I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think both men and women are told their worth isn't intrinsic, but they're linked to different things. Stereotypically, woman's worth is linked to beauty and desirability while man's worth is linked to power and ability to provide. Both of which can get really toxic to people's well being and self-confidence.
Here’s my theory on the rejection problem. Because men get taught a lot less about feelings and communication they actually end up being a lot more sensitive to these types of things, so if a man goes up to a woman in the supermarket and he gets rejected, it’s taken extremely personally and is a massive hit on their self-worth. The first thoughts in his head in that situation won’t be “She doesn’t know me so it doesn’t matter”, it’s “I’m not strong/attractive enough, I am bad at speaking, my social anxiety is getting in the way” etc.
That’s a valid theory,also the pressure that we get having to make 90% of the moves and we aren’t even taught social cues that woman do for us to know our chances are 0.Then you start to believe there’s a chance even the smallest of chances because she never said no.
I think another factor is that women are already validated enough. Women can get offended if they get rejected like men can, but in a lot of cases they'll probably have a feeling of self worth. Men don't have that self worth or constant praise so it's easier for us to take it on a more personal level as a lot of us don't really have much to fall back on.
@@frishter totally in line with what you said, a compliment for a man is something he's gonna cherish for his entire life for most of us xD So I guess the self worth as a man is way more difficult to gain on a daily basis
@@frishter I disagree, not just you but the whole premise. Okay, not the whole, but half of it I agree, that men are left without tools and more vulnerable in these situations, but than if a relationships ensues, women are more open to hits to their self worth. The fear of not being abel to “keep a man” is the same as for a man not being able to “get a woman”.
@@olympiaelda1121 One is cleary harder though lol. Just like not being able to find good food or keep good food rather than find any food at all. Same for relationships, which are almost a base need like food as well. Not having them at all is significantly worse.
To add onto the question of, "How can you get rejected if they don't even know you?" You have to take into account how some people make entire character assumptions about you, way before you're even in talking distance. Hell, back in grade school people assumed I was a school shooter simply because I was a dude who didn't talk much and wore a hoodie. It's not until they knew me that they realized all of their assumptions were baseless. Now imagine if you want to go make friends with someone or ask them out, and before they've even heard you speak, they label you as a school shooter. You could perhaps see how you're already rejected before even being known.
Both men and women make assumptions very fast. There's even research that it only takes a few seconds for people to decide. Honestly I think only very beautiful people haven't experienced this happening to them and don't understand, because of the halo effect they have an advantage. But what people said about you sounds awful and painful. As an awkward introvert, people sometimes tell me things like "wow when I first saw you I thought you were very arrogant but you are chill". It makes me self-conscious that people I've never talked to, or only talked for a few minutes, already thought so negatively on me. Doesn't help with social anxiety lol.
I think you are somewhat projecting your assumptions onto other people here, I don’t think everybody sees someone who is quiet in a hoodie and immediately thinks ‘school shooter’. Outside of that, if this really is happening/ it upset/s you, you can try a sweater, blazer, cardigan, etc or socialising a little more.
To add even further to the "How can you get rejected if they don't even know you?", I think at least part of it is people realize how crucial the first impression is to someone creating an opinion of them. Where if you have given a shaky first impression it becomes difficult to overcome, and people with low self confidence can assume they will give a very poor first impression.
that's one nasty assumption to make... I imagine that really messes with your head, because to some degree it is provoking and poking you to do exactly that, even when you never even thought about it
@@MrHastygamer Yea, the projection was a little bit extreme haha. But it was just an anecdotal example of how people may label others as someone to avoid, for their own safety. Whether its school shooter, an aggressive creep or just a rude obnoxious person.
On the topic of getting rejected by strangers, I think a lot of men have the idea that women will say yes to a man who is a complete stranger if he has the looks, height or status she desires. So if a strange woman rejects him, in his mind what she's saying is "you're too ugly, short and low value for me".
You may be right. Because the reality is far from that. I'm a very average, if not kind of ugly woman, and even if the most handsome man in the world came up to me as a stranger and asked me out I wouldn't instantly say ''yes'' lol. He could be a serial killer or a horrible person.We could have absolutely nothing in common etc.
@@mercedesb2299 You are using false dichotomy. Getting with a woman is not either immediate hookup or worming your way to relationship via friendship, there are other ways. A woman is much more likely to give her phone number or agree to a date if a guy is handsome and powerful. Would you disagree with this?
In reference to men being afraid of rejection, as someone with a relatively healthy emotional vocabulary, and who has been very scared of rejection, it's definitely not always about the "No". The "No" hurts, sure, but a lot of the fear is the what ifs around it. If it's a friend, what if it destroys the friendship? If it's someone you know through others, how will that hurt your relationship with them? It should be easy. "Hey, I like you." "Aight, cool. I don't, not like that." "Ok. Not the response I wanted but that's fine. Wanna play some mario kart?" but there's so much AROUND that that it's a lot of feedback and noise overriding that simple process. In my experience, fear almost always stems from a want to avoid losing something. Losing the friend. Losing the fantasy you've built up in your head. Losing your social group that you've built up. Or, in the case of fear of rejection approaching someone in a bar or whatever, sure people want to get their way, but it's also the potential reactions. Do they make a scene? Logically, no they won't but they MIGHT. Do other people around give you shit? Do your friends think less of you?
Yeah, I get that. There's all the awkward situation around it, things can't be unspoken. I worry about, if I do know them they might just pretend they're interested for easy sex until they meet someone they actually have feelings for.
I think the part about losing the fantasy you've built up in your head is the biggest contender. Like Anita said, rejection from someone who doesn't even know you shouldn't really feel bad, since there's nothing invested to lose besides time taken during a quick conversation. It's the total fabrication of what COULD come after that conversation that I feel many men are afraid to lose. Despite not having any solid reason for things to progress beyond a first meeting, it will still feel like you lost a possible future with this person. When in reality that person never intended to jump into a relationship with you, they weren't even thinking about you that way. It's the disconnect between what men think they can gain from asking a girl if they want to date them, and what women actually consider a romantic encounter.
What you have to understand is that what you see as a potential romantic relationship she sees as platonic friendship, and once you reveal your true intentions, she will realise that you are in a way being deceitful and never saw it as platonic friendship.
I'd argue the 'losing the friendship' part for me is the most relatable and scary part. I've had crushes in the past, but only on friends I've known for at least a year, I don't really tend to fall in love with someone unless I know them well on an emotional level and that takes time naturally. Issue is, once you get to that level of trust and friendship, the 'risk' of confessing is way higher because you invested so much in the friendship, if the feelings aren't reciprocated you might just lose it all, and that's infinitely worse than the simple 'no'. Not saying this is anyone's fault and I have no idea how to fix it if it's even fixable, but that's what my personal fear of rejection boils down to.
I grew up in a household that was mostly female dominated. I had to put up with a lot of blame for being male because of the shortcomings of my father. I basically had do be the surrogate father figure for my three younger sisters afther my parents divorced when I was 9 years old. Being the only outlet for my mother's dissappointment in men, I took the brunt of demeaning comments from her. I was basically raised with the assumption that I was not fit to be with a girl/ woman ever, because I was a male and male equals bad - a disaster waiting to happen. This was mostly achieved through comparing me to my father (even though I don't share those bad traits with him) after hearing for years what kind of bad person my father was. My own feelings ended up being neglected, since showing feelings or lashing out was considered to be a proof, that I would be failing and endig up like my father. I had my first girlfriend with 29 - including my first kiss. Up until then I just believed, that relationships are a thing that others do, something that was never meant for me. I went through that "friendzone" bullsh*t during my teenage years, something that reinforced the notion that I was not worthy. I am off my third relationship for a year now and I still tense up when I meet a woman I consider a "possible match", even if it is CLEAR that she is not available. I think - in my case - that is because I grew up with the belief that women are above me. That I, as a man, have to be pleasant an perfect and flawless. And once I am confronted with the slightest possibility that I could be with that woman I get anxious. Because I KNOW I am going to fail. For many years, I was terrified of being rejected. This has somewhat shifted from fear towards resignation. I AM going to be rejected no matter what, since I am inadequate. I know intellectually that this is not true but I still can't shake this feeling.
I hope you’re good now mate but a lot of times I’ve noticed that most people have problems in life because of either an absent father or toxic mother or both.
I'm sorry you had to go through that stuff, dude. I can't tell you how you feel, but I do hope you do take into thought that not everyone in this world has to be perfect because we all screw up, even the ones we deem to be "perfect", but we hardly know what others go through, yet hope that we can be the ones that can comfort them. All I can say is, don't let stuff pressure you from the past, but learn to why you can be the better person now and so forth. As long as you're still breathing, you can still try. Take care of yourself.
My mom does that to me too: I can’t get mad or else I get compared to my dad, who is practically estranged from me now, and whom I still have some trauma from.
Nah, IMO the Reddit post one is still the best since it helps Dr K helps average people which is majority of his demographic. Sure streams like this does help too to some extent but they definitely shouldn’t be the norm
I think what Dr K was trying to piece together towards the end there was: to men, the door to a relationship with a woman they've never met is always open initially, and women saying that the door is closed is the rejection. To women, the door is initially closed, and therefore they can only reject guys if they have let him through the door first!
not really true not everyone thinks the way anita does about it, a lot of women will judge and reject you based on superficial factors like height or how expensive your clothes are or how handsome you are or whatever else based on how you appear during that short interaction. and it will be an intentional rejection and they will also view it that way. which is a far less mature way to look at it.
@@thespanishinquisition7560 and you're basing your opinion on what exactly? Those are just statemenrs that men mindlessly repeat without any substance
@@thespanishinquisition7560 So if you meet a woman like that you can be glad she rejected you right? Because why would you want to date her? If you only wanted to date her based off of looks.. you're not any better than her...
As a woman, i feel like she assumes a LOT of things about these specific kinds of men... I liked the conversation in the beginning because she was explaining how these revenge porn and deep fakes can feel for the victim, but at the end i feel like she gets angry at men who cannot communicate like "a normal person" and therefore asks for advice and men who gets bitchy about being friend zoned and what not. (I do agree, there is no "zone" to be put in, you start out a friend and it either evolves or stays as is. You can start out as a romantic option but you will be well aware and in this case you'd probably not go "down" to being a friend if it doesn't work out afterwards) I do think the constructive conversation turned sour there as she could not understand the "other side" and how hard it can be for both men and women to talk to the opposite sex regardless of romantic feelings or not. The feelings of rejections in seemingly small conversations that SHOULD NOT matter, but for these people DO MATTER, is a huge problem that many people i know born in the 90'ies have or do struggle with.. I struggled talking to any guys that didn't approach me and start the conversation, even in school projects i struggled talking to the boys in the group, not because of romantic opportunities, but because i was afraid of rejection, being told to do my part of the project alone because i had nothing in common with them.. And they where all very nice people! I have adult male friends today that struggle to get a partner because they don't know how to interact with females. They don't have many hobbies and therefore do not meet women nor have anything in common with the girls they meet.. It can happen the other way around too, i have a couple of female friends, that are or where in relationships with a guy where they had nothing in common with, it often end too because its hard to find something to do together if you cannot dig into the other persons hobbies. I hope you guys and gals out there, who feel worthless and hopeless knows that you are good enough! You are worth being with, your hobbies are fun! You "just" need to find someone who shares the hobby or want to listen in or even try it out because they like YOU for YOU, and its not easy, i know, but get out there, have fun, enjoy life, do your hobbies, along the way you might find that special someone
@@justicethedoggo3648 Your assumption is exactly the type of thing Gwenx is talking about I think. Many guys (mostly young ones) struggle with basic communication with women regardless if sex is even a thing they want with that specific woman. The struggle to find a partner and the struggle to find sex is the same one and the sources of the problem are often the same - silly archaic social expectations, poor education in the subject etc.
It’s very hard to CBT your way through learned experiences and a vast majority of women I know share these same experiences. In the beginning when she said it was gaslighting for people to act like they don’t get it …. Yeah
I do think some of these men, who struggle, really just are looking for sex and not a relationship because they maybe don't know what relationships are about? I hear my friends craving a relationship, but whenever the talk lands on woman and their needs, they back out and talk shit about how its "needy" for the woman to wanna sit and bench idk, sex and the city, with their partner or whatever the topic is. None of these guys are willing to put in the effort, to sacrifice, or to do the things needed of them.. They just want sex with a pretty girl. Now most of those i know that wants a relationship, actually do find them self's in relationships, it just doesn't hold because they maybe ignore some red flags or their partner isn't willing to put in the work, or they just weren't super compatible to begin with. These guys know what a relationship takes, and that you have to adapt, change, and give up some things, to be in a balanced relationship that isn't just sex :) Most girls have experienced something super uncomfortable from some guy out there. The entitlement or the friend zoning is the most annoying as we are all individuals, we owe nothing to nobody no matter what we do. You flirted with a girl at the bar, and later felt she was not your type? You don't "owe" her to go home and bang her, just because you where flirty. You don't owe her, to explain next morning over text, why you left early. You can have a change of heart, change your believes, change your opinion, and that should be okay. I really do hope these video's Dr.K makes helps some guys and gals out there, struggling to understand and help us all do, and be better
You know, I sat and listened to the best of my ability. The part that resonated with me was not being able to differentiate signals with friendly interactions. I have experienced this more times than I'd care to admit. I by default assume if someone wants to be around me that they're doing so because they want to be friends. I never assume sexual intent. I've missed. So. Many. Signals. Where women have retro actively asked me why I never made a move. I've been invited to stay the night at female friends houses. Not understanding the implication of what they mean when staying the night. Slept on couches when a bed has been offered. Stepped out of rooms when someone has started to change in front of me. And brushed off invitations of dates as hang outs with the homies. I just assumed it was cause they were comfortable around me - and knew I wouldn't do anything that the offers were being made - NOT - that they were trying to drop a hint.
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 nope. I mean unless ADHD counts. I do have a diagnosis of that. I'd say it's probably more so to protect my peace of mind. It's safer and less emotionally turbulent to assume that someone's actions are what they are at face value. Clear direct communication about intent is what differentiated the people that ended up being my partners - and the people who I end up missing signals. I do not like ambiguity I never have.
I hope that you don't let yourself feel too bad about any of those situations. All I know is that if they weren't able to communicate clearly and directly what they were interested in, I don't know how emotionally available they'd be in general. (I don't want to make snap judgments about these people's character, I'm just working with the information you've given) It seems to me like you're prioritizing being a good, kind, and respectful person above all else and you should feel good about that. Despite your username...I think you were the Truly Smart one in these situations :)
As a woman, I can agree with a lot of what she has said. HOWEVER, I also feel that she has clutched into her belief and her specific experience that she has now done the same thing. It seems that she cannot see a man as anything more than someone who wants her, or some other woman. I would also like to know, how she approaches someone that she’s attracted to, and would like to ask out. Because all people have transactional experiences with others. In fact, any person who has been in a committed, live-in relationship has made some transactions with their partner.
At some quick google searching looking at the trending dramas around Anita, she is very forward and upfront with people she is interested in. If she is wanting to, and willing to hang out and be a friend with a person, she is. She is extremely supportove and caring of her friends, she has friends of all genders and positions in life and grew up with a very hard upbringing and has had more problems than most people do because of her condition, so you may not understand the difficulties she is going through in addition to "just being a woman" because she has a lot of ticks and stuff she cannot control that are actively making her life more difficult especially with the problems she highlights. She doesn't see men as "only people wanting her," she is scared that they will decide they want her and not take no for an answer no matter how long they've supposedly been platonic friends, which is VERY different
From what I've seen as a long time fan of sweet anita is that she troughout her life has had men and even woman fuck zone her to such a dispreportional degree compared to the avarage woman. That it's difficult to suspect anything else from men. I also know that she has extremely sparingly had a maybe handful of men not do that too her. Tho the exact details I'm unaware off and I'm quoting from memory. It'd be good to know that non all men are trying to fuck zone you. But in her specific case it's not strange or unfair for her to think that.
@@SeanHoltzman not “just a woman.” Quite a bit more, dealing with chronic illness, and several conditions of my own. In fact, the people who actually know me and my life story, feel it is a miracle I’m still on this earth. I listened to the entire interview, she is always the one who approaches and asks for a date, and will never accept a date from anyone who asks her out. This is her prerogative, but I would say that absolutely means that she feels any man who asks her out just wants to fuck her. That’s it, never giving a second thought to perhaps he thought she was a cool chick, or he liked her fashion sense, or perhaps she looked like an old friend and therefore immediately made the man feel at ease; there are many reasons an individual may ask a person out. To me, it seems she has made all of her decisions about men, before ever giving them a chance. But that’s just me.
Bingo. She's doing the exact thing to men that men have done to her. Complete lack of understanding/empathy towards what they go through and where they're coming from. Hopefully more open discussions with ppl from both sides can be had, instead of silos.
@@slow-adhesiveness-4933 I'm not your alpha male, I'm not a movie star, I'm far from smooth, I suffer from crippling self doubt etc etc. And yet, really frickin hot women are happy when I approach them and quite often that leads somewhere. They're totally bored with getting approached by narcissists. Stop theorising to justify your fears. Stop imagining you know what is going on in another person's mind because you've deduced the rules. It makes you look silly.
@@vidzorko4492 You can learn from close- or narrowminded people still. She has her views and opinions and they are valid. I disagree with alot of the things she says and thats totally fine. I liked her visualization of rejection though and how different it is for men and women because of how we approach each other. It actually makes alot of sense to explain it that way.
Getting rejected based upon a perceived lack of initial interest is still rejection. That’s how dating apps work. I think it should still be understood as something that can be entirely harmless. Hell, this has fueled the creation of art.
sure, but that rejection should only be as surface level as your relationship with the person. if you just saw someone for the first time, was sexually attracted and then got rejected, it’s not nearly on the same level as being rejected by a mother, friend or girlfriend
@@meghanohalloran729you don’t understand rejection in dating for men. Men are expected to be the pursuer in dating which is hard and requires a lot of motivation and investment since especially the men struggling with dating aren’t as socially adept and charismatic. Society values men and men value themselves on their ability to do well with women. You have heard all of this before. None of what I said would matter if the man in question had a great social circle and tons more opportunity for women to fall back on, rejection doesn’t hurt when you have other options, but we are in a loneliness epidemic with a record amount of single people so men don’t have that stuff
@@meghanohalloran729 true but when it's often and that is usually the case for men. It can prove to be really damaging and hurtful. You would think constant exposure to rejection would make men neutral. But that isn't the case at all. Just like how constant abuse doesn't fix the issue.
@@meghanohalloran729 It does not have to be that kind of rejection to hurt a lot though. It causes you to relive every other rejection you've had, many of which are not from strangers but from people who genuinely knew you and were just not interested. The reason for this is that guys are rejected CONSTANTLY, especially in dating where they must approach first. Even just walking down the street, you are rejected as a guy. People move to the other side of the street. People put as much space between you and them as possible. There is no way to convince your primate brain that this is not complete and utter social rejection, even if these people do not know you. They treat you like a wild animal, on the off chance that you are one of the very few that deserve to be treated that way (which is fair btw, I'm just saying you have no context for how often men are rejected). There have been pieces written by trans men that put this into perspective as well.
Anita generalizes men the EXACT same way some red pill groups generalize women. This is the toxicity that makes dating miserable for everyone. We need to address both sides, that's what Dr. K does well.
Yep, this jumped out to me immensely in this conversation. She's doing the exact things men/people have done to her; a complete lack of understanding of the other person/where they're coming from/empathy for their suffering and position. Hopefully HG can provide a more open and safe environment to share perspectives, because on the public domain, 90%+ of the public conversation is around bolstering women and telling men they are priviledged, or at least thats how it feels like. That'll lead to nowhere but resentment on both sides and clowns like Andrew Tate getting huge following simply for acknowledging that men suffer. Not good.
She says generalizations the whole video but then when she talks about rejection, what most people generally do doesn’t matter, only how she personally gives and experiences rejection matter
@@ZapatosVibes Exactly, influential people like her make terrible generalizations and it causes groups of people to be paranoid and scared of another group of people. This is why society is where it's at today
@@varsa507 but women have a right to be scared of men, because men are disproportionally a danger to women, most men are not a threat but some are (some women to but in a way smaller scale), how is someone supposed to know if a certain man is going to be a danger or not, you can’t blame them for being cautious
@@lillierose5304 had a friend confess to his female friend. Her compassionate answer was, literally, "men are such scum, why did you destroy our friendship?" and then leaving the scene. Such a female thing to do, the entire universe to revolve around her.
@@michajastrzebski4383 sUcH a fEmAlE tHiNg tO dO.. OBvIoUsly ALL women are like that and men are ALL literal Angels who only use women who dEsErVe iT... AM I RIGHT FELLAS? 🧔♀️🔥💯💪
21:20 I absolutely LOVE this point by Anita. The idea that men are undersexualized and women are oversexualized. And then that men and women hear about each other's experiences (men never getting the attention they want and women getting all of the attention they DON'T want) and can't empathize with each other, I love this so much. I've had this thought kicking around in my head for a long time that each sex has what the other sex wants. Men want attention and women want to be left alone.
I've seen arguments between children that were resolved with empathy. Literally. It can't be one sided, though. It can't be women empathizing with men's frustration, and men saying, "finally you get it! Will you go out with me now??" It requires men to understand the frustrations women have - and the dangers men and sex pose to women. And I commend Dr. K for these shows, because this is exactly what he's trying to do.
@@574882 Most people like attention. It's *type* of the attention women get that they don't want. Anonymous attention from people they don't know is fine, especially if they're getting paid, but the sexual advances from men online and in person who they don't find attractive is the attention they don't like.
@@574882 women don't like _unwanted_ attention. I also think men try to understand women through _projection_ but women's experience in the world is different from men's. (For instance, men rarely get unwanted attention. More specifically, men don't fear violence from women, like women do from men.)
@@574882all humans like attention of some sort, even since babyhood, women just dont like the "bad touch" vibes, i like to describe the bad touch vibes as drawing poop emojis on someone's whole body while they are asleep with permanent marker, so that when they wake up they have to waste days washing it off, such frustration, such insult!
I think im in the minority when i say i really appreciate her unfiltered view of how she sees friendzoning. The fact that she made me feel uncomfortable and frustrated by her explanation only helped me get a broader perspective that everyones views on the world differ greatly and that despite my biases i was somehow able to see it from her perspective while also dissagreeing heavily. Especially as a guy, I could not relate to a single one of her feelings.
@@nadinesereda-sass158 oh yeah sure, while i dont relate to that guy in in said situation i know a few who have been in those situations. weather it be rejection or freindzoning. and i think there is just a nuance that is tough for each side to understand eachother's intentions and feelings in that situation. and bridging the two sides together may be close to impossible on a widespread scale, i think at least. Im not saying her feelings are wrong but her assumption about the guy in that situation isn't totally aligned with how they actually feel.
i also appreaciated her takes as well as thought of them as partially to extreme. im not a man so can find reesoance and validation in many things she says while i have to acknoledge that she is misssing some pieces of the puzzle. She really brilliantly summarizes the signals someone sends when they eg are afraid of the firendzone. while there might be a valid reason for that kind of concern just accepting the mere concept of it into your world view sends signals of dehumanization and alienation that one would only want to respond to by anger. And anger and not even being shown your not seen fully as a person really is gonna make it hard to want to even see the other side. I wish we could just abandon those weird terms and constructs and look at cases more individually
@@cube22111 She annoys me as hell, I'm not gonna watch that full interview. I think she has a very skewed viewpoint. She sees all men as rapists, and then disregards the whole data of unhappy women who hit the walll, still haven't found a relationship and no longer can. We have the data! And the studies. Women dating options peak at 20 and tank at 40, men dating options is the exact opposite, they peak at 40. It would be fine if she said she doesn't want this and that personally, but when she blames society for trying to teach her these facts, because these impair her freedom... When she's 40, she's gonna blame society again and say, men are all perverts because they want a young, fertile woman. Not only that, when women get pregnant before 30, they have way less risks of everything, and I would guess (though I'm not a woman) that they're not keen on having a c-section. I bet that she's going into clubs to drink, sexy dressed, maybe with makeup, and then is surprised that the drunks are approaching her, and from there she deducts that all men are like that. It's not like she gets approached on the street at daylight.
This got me thinking... When she said that it's not normal to see a person and immediately get scared of rejection when thinking about talking to them... I thought about how it feels when you see an potential client, or a potential business partner. You get scared of rejection in the same manner because that person has something you want, and you're afraid that if you fail to convince them, then you'll have lost any future chance of getting what you want from that specific person. And since every woman is a different mostly unique package, then the anxiety gets even higher, because you'll have lost any chance to "get" that specifically unique "product or service". Since no one can offer exactly the same. I mean, it's the same feeling. And it's scary, because you're so focused on what you want... that you don't care at all about what the other person wants. You're not thinking about how you can serve that client or enrich that woman's personal life experience. You're wholly focused on "how can I extract what I want out of this person", and that is frankly a shitty way to do business or approach relationships. I mean, we all despise that salesman-kind of attitude that's just trying to manipulate you into giving them your money, to manipulate you into saying "yes". And I imagine, for many women it's exactly like that.
That is a veeeery good description. Now the horrible misconception here is, not your mistake LOL. The misconception is part of what is actually happening in these exact scenarios!! There is a false assumtion going on with the "sales person" (and sometimes also the "client" towards the "company"): In which they are convinced, that the difference in "deals" equals difference in happiness. And that is a terrible lie we were taught!!!!! Turns out, that missing out on deals is not a big problem. ESPECIALLY when your main income isn't (and never should!!!) relying on the success of these deals to start with, but rather your regular "prouct sales" (e.g. exchanges taking place during: self-care, friends, family, work relationships, platonic fun social interactions with strangers). As it turns out, you can be missing out on many "unique deals" and not lose much at all. On the contrary, you can gain. Every time you get scared of the loss, you can learn how to process loss. NOT to be numb to loss, but to be OK sitting with the feeling of loss!!!!! And then you stop obsessing over lost deals. You can offer deals and see of there's interest. And when there isn't, then you sit with loss and appreciate the avoidance of getting stuck with an unwilling client!!! It gets easier and easier to truly look at your clients and what both of you need to be satisfied with whatever business echange you may have! Losses are scary, because you are tying your worth and success to the client, when they have 1000 reasons to have different needs than you! Losses are scary, because you believe that you must bend to serve clients. When in reality, the whole point is: The business offers what it sees clients need AND is within the businsses means and interest. And clients choose to come in and choose to express what else they may need. And from there, talks are held, which needs can be covered between these parties and which need to be supplied by external parties. So, it actually doesn't even matter if the clients and their deals are different! X'DDDD You just cover what you can, and many different parts will always be supplied by other parties! The consistant part is you, the sales person and your offer. What business goes and overthrows itself, each time a client comes into the shop, takes a round and leaves without buying anything? :'D And if the shop shuts down cause noone buys, does the sales person cease to work??? Or live??? Or do they check on themselves and see what next step they can take?
This is great! First half I was pissed at you like in "we are not products!" way. But somehow I continued reading and was like "oh.. it's just model and a very good one". So, thanks for good model and you also seem to have good writing skills, so my compliments there too:)
@@KxNOxUTA, I love that you took my analogy and ran with it. I completely agree. Relying on a single potential client to make up the whole worth of your business is a terrible strategy indeed. And it is also true that many times you're just not supposed to be doing business with certain people. Those clients may look alluring... They may look like big catches... But the truth may be that they're a horrible fit for your business's goals and aspirations. So it turns out that sometimes, many rejections are just protecting you both, the client and yourself, from getting involved in a deal that will only bring ruin to both of your businesses. So we gotta learn to be lighthearted about it. Not all deals are meant for our business. And in very much the same manner, not all relationships are meant for our lives. And we gotta learn to be okay with that truth. Just like in business...
Exactly! The first premise someone is working from is what is wrong in the first place: how can I extract something out of them? They're not seeing women as humans, they're seeing them as some kind of vending machine. No one should expect or feel entitled to anything from anyone because wtf? A lot of guys need to deprogram from all that shit that pickup artists have shoveled into their brains. They need to not even consider them as a source of information because what they're selling is literally based on misogynistic bullshit. It's also so detrimental to men as well because of all the internalized patriarchal bullshit. It teaches guys how to be disassociated and detached not only from themselves, but from people around them. And that is the basis of this isolation.
@@Sarah-re7cg This crap is not even coming from pickup artists. It's simply our natural inclination to treat every obstacle as a puzzle to solve. When we want something, our natural first response is to approach the issue from logic, and try to create a path in our mind to reaching that goal. But human relationships aren't as clean cut. Outcomes aren't as clearly defined. And things get messy often. Which is why approaching it from logic *is* the mistake. Human relationships aren't a problem to be solved. They are an experience to be lived and shared. Outcomes don't matter. What matters is the shared journey. The feelings shared. And the joy experienced. The tears, the bliss, the heartbreak, all of it! To live it fully, and earnestly. Without having a specific goal in mind. Simply... to be in the moment... That's how the best friendships are experienced, and the best courtships too.
@@Wavewave583 Different person. For starters, everyone has their own trauma and biases. That's just part of being human. In terms of reducing, you're the only one who did that. OP commented on things Sweet Anita did/said, not on the entirety of their part in the conversation. You are of course free to disagree with Zeb's conclusion (I personally agree with them), but you may find it useful to ask why you assumed that a generalization or reduction had occurred.
This is a woman that has dealt with stalkers before just keep that in mind. Despite her skewed understanding of the reality of a male/being a male. She like everyone else on this planet has conditioned herself to accept her own "beliefs." So there is no need for judgement just understanding of why she thinks this way. It is also acceptable to tell someone they are wrong when they are clearly wrong. You don't have to be disrespectful just be honest. In no way does this viewpoint help her in life, it does however help feed her limitations. You don't have to be an addict to your doom and gloom as if it will always keep you safe, it doesn't and it never will.
I always wanted to be a friend with someone first, before dating her. I've sort of had the opposite problem with women not understanding that I would be open to dating them if they would bother to be my friend first.
That what I did to find my husband. We both stay in the friendzone for a long while. Checking if we can be friends before blooming this into something else. Been married to him for 14 years. Being friend is actually important and all friendships grows but it doesn't always grow in the same way and if you don't have feelings and the other one have them it's actually healthy to stop that relationship and everyone should respect this hard situation on both side.
I feel a lot of resentment coming from this person, who has probably had a lot of bad experiences with men, so it's probably understandable, but I still get a knot in my stomach listening to her.
Nobody gives that same empathy to men complaining about women. A lot of what she said was exaggerating, like the study about degrading a women in a video game? Tons of men have the opposite problem that they don’t degrade women but put them up on a pedestal.
@Mina Botieso putting women on a pedastel, especially if the woman doesn't want to be put there, is dehumanizing also. Saying this as someone who's prone to doing that, too; it can make it very uncomfortable for the other side and is not fair.
Hah, I love how he immediately rejected the idea that you cannot be rejected without being known. Anita, approaching someone and even several meters away without even saying a word, being greeted by the hardest eye-roll and the most annoyed look known to mankind is not exactly confidence boosting. Being (non verbaly) told I am not even worth a human greeting is some hardcore rejection. Edit: keep in mind, if you actually choose someone to shoot your shot at, you 1. noticed something you liked about that person 2. you have a goal, it's insanely hard not to have hopes and dreams about how that is going to go. expectation -> suffering It takes a lot of introspection to get over that. It's not by default.
I assume that according to your high moral stance of how Anita and all woman should school their face to smile pleasantly at everyone "giving a human greeting", you are not a hypocrite and you smile kindly at elderly ladies and gentelman, at obese ladies and gentelman at ugly ladies and gentelman and at children? Because I don't get why this addresses specifically woman?
@@hdshjs Assume along. No where did I make a moral judgment, it's going to have reasons people act a certain way and I certainly didn't say anything about smiling. I did say, that recoiling at the idea of any form of interaction is a form of rejection even if you nothing about them. And taking that action personal is the default option for most people.
He had to take some time to think about what to say after that moment but he was immediately able to push back on her rejection explanation because it’s so obviously not the reality for men and women. She talks for the whole video about studies and macropicture generalizations but then when she talks about rejection, it’s all personal anecdotes. I like her mindset that she only wants to date people that she asks out but that’s not reality. She talked about how she handles rejection because she knows that’s not how it mostly jappens
I honestly believe that some people lack or lost compassion because at one point in their life (or a constant experience), they were hurting and no one gave a f**k. The world treated them like sh*t, so they learned to treat other people like sh*t. It's not too late to change that, life is filled with RNG and those same people could've just asked emotional support from level 100 narcissists (hopefully they also change/d). I hope they find their compassion again. Really missed these long-form content creator interview content, what a tasteful treat!
Literally this. When the world's given you nothing but shit, you aren't taught how to be a decent person. It doesn't excuse being a horrible person, but it is an explanation. Trauma does weird things to people.
Yeah, I was in the same boat. It took me verbally abusing a cousin of mine to a degree that even I was shocked I ever said those words to him to realize I have become the very thing that I despised with abject hatred. And it was that hatred that led me to do the same. I still regret that to this day because I know those words would also stick to him in the same way the words that plagued my mind for years have.
Literally me right now. My parents kicked me out when I was 19. I have no friends. I've learned that this world doesn't care about anyone and you have to learm to survive on your own. And I'm fine with that, but I sure as hell aint caring about anyone else then.
I'm not deep in this yet but Anita Sarkissian did not "just review" games. This is just such a disingenuous statement. Not to justify any harassment she may have experienced, but the backlash against her was definitely not without merit.
@@steveloge8119 well, let today be that afternoon! If that's you on the photo - gorgeous beard and objectively a very handsome man who's rocking said beard! **bows and fades back into shadows**
A date told me there's no point complimenting me. With my looks I probably hear that I'm pretty all the time. I was an adult and had only been told it once.
Idk why men not being complimented would ever be a reason for assault. There are ugly women too who never get compliments and they generally aren’t creating revenge porn or murdering sex workers.
It is a pretty wild assumption from Anita that men who are her friends and then ask for sex/romantic interactions had those all along and where just hiding them instead i the possibility that the men may have developed those feelings DURING THE FRIENDSHIP.
Yeah, that's what disturbed me most about this conversation. I'm surprised Dr.K didn't react one bit to that. And especially that "sleep with me or I dump you as a friend" BS she ranted about at 46:34. A pretty toxic opinion if you ask me. Shows complete lack of understanding of how emotions work. She talks as if she's entitled to have a man's friendship no matter what, and if he chooses to end that friendship because he had developed romantic feelings, well, let's label him as "he was just my friend because he was hoping for sex"
Exactly. One could say that is being demisexual - being emotionally attracted to someone. Emotional attraction sort of requires emotional attachment and nurturance. I suppose skills can be developed to help demisexuals, but again. Where does one find these skills?
@@zorkan111 This is a take that assumes that that she is lying about her friends saying things such as "Or was I wasting my time" or the thing to that effect. That's not a toxic opinion, that's her perception of the situation based on what she experienced. She does not ever express any entitlement to men in her life to be her friends. What she expressed multiple times was asking people if they are interested, and they refused to commit, and then blindsiding her. She also described telling people that she will let them *know* if she is interested in them, and some people still getting upset with her for not sharing her feelings. What that is a description of, is one of a huge oversight of empathy and maturity on the part of the person asking Anita to reciprocate, when she has done all that she can do to let them know she is not interested before they decide to make these choices. I am not sure where you are hearing entitlement "no matter what" to friendship in that. I can understand why you might feel "he was just my friend to get sex" would be an overstatement, but in the context of telling people you are friends, and treating them as a friend, and asking them if they are interested in you, with those people refusing to admit it, only to wait *years* to tell her they were hoping she would accept them, how is this her fault? In this situation she is guilty of what, exactly? Because I want you to really think about how you would feel if someone who you were not interested in, played your friend for years only to ask if you are gonna date them, and indicated that that is why they wanted to be your friend, not just because they liked you for you. Like really really think about that.
@@DadMusashi Yes, but then the point still stands that she generalizes her perception as the objective standard. Also she repeatedly uses the clear formulation of "rejecting someone" NEVER of "being rejected". The way how Anita keeps the perspective of the one who reject CONSISTENTLY during the interview is to me a pretty strong hint that she rarely or never has faced romantic rejection in her life.
@@TheCap319Your only a creep if she doesn’t find you remotely attractive lol nah just make a move the first few instances you start feeling attracted. It’s a lot easier to walk away with the rejection. If you let it go on a women had only maybe 50-60% into you she will be worried about the friendship being ruined and won’t take that risk on dating. Sooner the bandaid is pulled I think is the best chance and easiest outcome. Plus it shows you go after what you want.
Her concept of the friend zone is odd... she's implying that people cannot grow feelings for each other by getting to know each other more and supporting each other and going through experiences. She's assuming you immediately like someone and if you get feelings down the line or build attachment you are manipulative and a bad person.
Maybe that is true for those who have honed their skills... But when boys will be boys is a phrase that exudes emotional neglect, it is hard to understand this subtly when it's coming from such an emotional deficit due to social emotional neglect of men that results in "normative male alexithymia".
Yeah, and that whole point doesn't resonate with what she's saying somewhere after 1 hour mark. Especially in that "I'm the initiator" part of the dialogue. So like it's okay if she would grow feelings and then tells, but somehow she completely denies the same possibility for the other side
She has a lot of interesting points, but I really don't like her idea that just because people, in this case men or mostly teenage boys have trouble talking to the opposite sex, she thinks it's because they're bad people for some stupid reason or another. I personally was bullied by most girls my age until I was 14, so it took a while for me to act "normal" with them. It wasn't the hardest thing ever, but I had to learn by myself that not every girl is gonna hate me the second she sees me, but some people will struggle with that. Pretty hateful and judgmental stance to have on this. Asking for empathy and having none whatsoever to give back, she even says so herself.
There is a separate type of friendzone that gets rarely talked about: Those who for some reason are unable to clearly express their interest in someone, and instead, send out the wrong signals, signals of a platonic friendship. Those people don't feel entitled to the other person's genitals, they do view the other person as a person, but feel miserable, because it seems to them as if no one is interested in them romantically, and/or they feel miserable because they feel that something is wrong with _them_, but can't find out what exactly. This can be heartbreaking and soul-crushing. These people aren't assholes; rather, they need someone to talk to. But often, they are also loners who have trouble connecting with people in general. The best remedy is a friend who for example watches them when they try to approach someone who they are romantically interested with. The feedback they get from that friend can then be eye-opening. One example for a wrong signal is that they just never clearly ask that person out for a date, and rather, just talk about hanging out, going shopping etc. - stuff that friends do. These people then often are unaware that they are doing this, so a friend who then tells them "you should have asked him/her out directly" would help out so much.
You are responsible for your own life and self growth. I see men waiting for someone to come save them or show them the way. Taking ownership of what you don’t know and then taking action to learn on your own is just how life goes. If you waited for someone how to tell you to do everything at work, then you’d never be employed or promoted. Yes it’s uncomfortable and yes you will make mistakes but that is life. Take ownership and stop making excuses.
I think a lot of people's problems roots in problems in self-confidence and insecurities, in one way or another. Even for the "assholes". Self-confidence helps to be OK with rejection, because the person know that it does not mean that they suck as a person, they would still feel safe with their self image to not be destroyed by a rejection. So yes, I agree with you, I think most people who are sick scared of rejection just need someone to talk to, maybe a therapist too, to help themselves build a solid self image that will not be shaken by being rejected by someone else.
A lot of men grew up without good male role models so not knowing how to approach romantically, either through over or under shooting, is increasingly common. The danger is over shooting will sometimes work so gets reinforced.
I appreciate Anita and always enjoyed her interviews, but I feel like in this interview particularly there have been some great overgeneralizations and even dangerous assumptions in my opinion. For example, I feel like it's a dangerous message to send to women that they shouldn't go to the police after being SA'ed because 'the police will do background checks on you and try to discredit you', and while this happens in some places in the world (Japan for example is notoriously bad at handling these cases), it's inaccurate to say that this is always how it is. Another example is with the idea that when a woman does OnlyFans or pornography and then becomes a teacher, that she gets fired immediately. This is true, but it is equally true to male porn stars. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that society sees men (unlike women)'s sexuality as a dangerous thing, and so nobody could convince me that if the school's management found out that Mr.Smith also goes by "Bob the Gangbanger", that they would not immediately fire them on the spot. I understand that this is how she feels, and after what she went through I can't even blame her for feeling this way, but I would be lying if I said that I feel like a lot of her arguments felt somewhat one-sided and should at the very least be challenged. Again, not trying to invalidate her experiences or how she feels, but something about the way things were being said bothered me.
Agreed, i just really appreciate how she stands up for sex workers, who are often dehumanized. she could have been more clear that she was talking about sex workers of all genders. at least i hope she was.
Also, I disagree with her story about guys who are afraid of getting rejected because they're afraid of failing to fulfill their sexual needs with her body, like, omg o_o are guys, or even anyone else, just not allowed to be attracted to anyone else? Like, sorry, not sorry, not everyone is demisexual...
In the UK, if you report a r*pe to police, they're allowed to take the victim's phone and search everything on there, and they are also allowed to use the victim's therapy notes. They do this to discredit the victim so it doesn't go to court, if you don't believe me look it up.
@@Bioniclema90 Yeah and moreover, it's so incredibly damaging to have women tell you that all you want is sex. It's putting you in this box where you're like a dog wagging his tail at a treat, and it feels so dehumanizing honestly. I can look at a girl and think she has beautiful eyes and a nice smile and it makes me feel warm inside. I can look for deeper connections with people. As a man, it can be so so damaging hearing that opinion, because we are not taught about that as kids, and now every time we feel something, we immediately have to chalk it up for just being "sexual desire", and its so confusing. It also adds to the harmful idea that men and women cannot be friends, 'because if you feel even remotely affectionate towards your female friends, you must want more'. I had to talk with my friends about this to fully understand this, but as someone who grew up with a misandrist mother (whos is much better these days, love you mom lol), _that_ is what really bothered me. You guys, we can feel emotions too, and we aren't wrong or bad for feeling them.
The lack of empathy around friend/fuck-zoning is so frustrating to me, because it seems like both sides can very clearly articulate how it feels from their side, not realising that the experience of the other side is fundamentally very similar. Person A has an expectation of what their connection with person B should result in, but person B doesn't want that, so person A feels hurt/disappointed/rejected. Neither person is entitled to anything from the other: the man is not entitled to the woman's affection/love/sex, and the woman is not entitled to the man's time/friendship.
Based on this conversation, I would disagree on the experience being similar because the "friendzoned" side is playing a game from the beginning to make the other side fall in love with them and is then disappointed when they lose the game/realize that all their investment didn't lead to the desired outcome. The "fuckzoned" side is in the meantime convinced they are building a genuine friendship here because the other side acts accordingly to that purpose and so they behave authentic and friendly the whole time, only to find out that the other side just didn't make their intentions clear and are now openly disappointed because they didn't fall for them. These seem to be 2 very different experiences of hope, trying your best and manipulating while getting rejected in the end vs. building and having trust while getting "betrayed" in the end. Sure, eventually both are disappointed in the other side but for very different reasons: The fuckzoned one because of the other side not being entirely genuine from the start as well as just giving up this friendship and the friendzoned one because of the other side being too genuine/friendly.
Yeah, it really was somewhat disturbing to listen to her rant at 46:34 about "sleep with me or I dump you as a friend". She says "that's a horrible thing to do to someone" as if she's entitled to the guys friendship. She doesn't seem to understand that, once you develop romantic feelings for someone, it can be excruciatingly difficult to just casually hang out with them without being in a romantic relationship. She seems to misconstrue man not being able to hang out with her anymore with her with "oh, he was just using our friendship to get to sex".
@@maxweber5250 My understanding of the term "friendzoned" is that it refers to any situation where a man wants a relationship/sex from a woman, but the woman "only" wants to remain friends. I've never heard it used, or used it myself, to refer specifically to men manipulating women into sex. If that is actually what the term "friendzoned" means and I've just been using it wrong my whole life, how can we refer to a situation that's essentially the opposite of the one you described, where a man believes they are building a genuine connection that's building towards something more? Maybe the nomenclature around all this has just evolved and I missed it?
@@evedotcom I'm curious to hear why? To expand a little, the way I see it is: if the man wants a relationship/sex from a woman, and spends time with them, doing things with them they wouldn't normally do, because they believe that's how they can build towards what they want, then they have an expectation of what that relationship will eventually lead to. Likewise, if a woman wants to be friends with a man, and spends time with them assuming that they're building towards a friendship, then the woman has an expectation of what that relationship will lead to.
I (female) actually started finding a way to sneak in that I have a boyfriend in the first 5 minutes with just about any guy. Not like, "I have a boyfriend," but like "O yeah my boyfriend loves that video game."
@luddite31 TBH, I'm not trying to lead anyone on, and I just wanna be friends, so the quicker we get on the same page that I'm looking for friendship over romance, the better. I can't speak for everyone tho. That being said, I personally have close friends that I would probably die for, so being designated as a friend instead of a lover isn't an insult. It's just we're monogamous creatures, so we can't have sex as I have found someone for that role, ya know?
As a dude, I greatly appreciate stuff like this. I would never want someone to knowingly try to come between my gf and I when I have one, so I hold myself to the same standard. When a girl makes it clear she's taken, it makes conversation so much easier to navigate because I cut out any and all idea of being flirty.
Bro she explains it pretty decently. She doesn’t determine her self worth on how other see or treat her. She knows that someone rejecting her must have nothing to do with her as a person bit everything with the person that rejected her.
@@Leonie-tz3tz Because she doesn't need to develop a personality to attract men Men have to be smart, kind, empathetic, confident, have social status, be financially stable, in order for woman to even consider them Do you think Anita needs to be anything more than a good-looking woman to attract men?
@Ungabunga.44 OR she just has an internal sense of self confidence, like a healthy individual. You shouldn't judge your worth based on others sexual intrest in you, and just because you're rejected doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. People have their own preferences. It's not arrogant or thinking you're perfect, it's the mentality everyone should cultivate
It's easy to get over rejection and be ''mature'' when you've actually been told ''yes'' at any point in life. If you've only gotten ''no''-s, you can't not internalize that.
..yeah woman should say "yes" to the guy with his tracktor on his fb pic who asks "Are you shy?" As second sentence.. yeah we really should really empatise with this kind of guys. 😅🥲 Creeeepyyyy.....
Yes, this relates to the idea that the number 1 reason single people get into relationships is having prior experience. That you've explored this new facet of Life. A facet the inexperience of can feel like a train that already left the station without you. But since the willingness to get there is the number 2 reason, you can catch up to it with that train instead.
Rejection is subjective and often tied to prior insecurities. It's amazing that Anita has reached the point of personal growth whereas rejection doesn't project her value as a person for her, but that doesn't deny the feelings that another person might feel when denied a conversation etc. She is in no way responsible for that at all - but at the same time you can't decide what rejection is and isn't as it's up to each individual person. A man being nervous to start a conversation doesn't have to be that he wants to get in her pants, it might just be that he wants to be seen, to be interesting enough or be worth the time.
As a man, not being able to even entertain a conversation with a woman is painful enough. Sex is in a different galaxy, when the words coming out our mouths fall flat.
As a woman, I would say Anita's understanding of rejection is also not shared with most other women. But it's important to note that she is a demisexual, so that will affect how she views rejection.
@@brennam954 This is why when someone uses a word and defines am action differently than 99% of the population does, and once she is aware of that fact she still uses it her way, there's no point in me continuing the conversation. Imagine a person that defines "love" and "loving someone" entails literally owning the other person. You'd never want to be near such a person. Same concept here mostly.
@@O_Canada I mean, I can imagine the female group shitting on one of their own if she wasn't able to get a guy's phone number, but at the same time girl friend groups are much more tight nit. They're much more likely to shit on the guy for having refused one of them. I've never seen that with a guy group though.
I'm shocked that no one has pointed out that Anita is also coming from the perspective of being literally stalked and romance zoned by her friends for YEARS as shown by her first interview. She has to think of rejection this way because it's much harder to reject the hoards of people who like her otherwise
Not sure why it's so difficult to understand that it is intimate for men to share their feelings. We are very selective about it, because we expect ourselves to be strong , someone who can provide support instead of needing it. So when we do it, understand that this is special and rare, nothing like the way women do it. And we do not want our problems to be shared around by someone we confided our deepest thoughts in.
oh, women do understand this. Most just dont care, because they love that sweet sweet gossip fuel about someone. He's always just a means to her ends.
10 месяцев назад+41
As far as I listen to her, she basically judges everything from a viewpoint that everything against women is cultural injustice. I mean when she says that sex workers are being replaced when they are old and that it is happening because we as a society have something against women’s sexuality that’s just takes a cake.
Or "murders of sex workers are rarely investigated". Ok are the murders of drug dealers and pimps investigated? Like cmon now, murders in general are not investigated, murders of low class common criminals are certainly not investigated. Not that i think sex work should be illegal but it is.
What Sweet Anita said about a lot of men not having basic friendship skills is painfully true. My husband and I were talking about this and he admitted that his relationships with his male friends are very surface level with very little emotional support. The things me and my female friends are willing to share would be seen as "gay" with his friends, when it's just basic support.
Its an extremely tough hill to climb over. It takes me pretty much at least a year of being friends with a male to be able to delve into deeper topics such as mental health. Thanks for your perspective!
I feel SO insanely lucky to have more than one close male friend that I feel relatively comfortable talking about emotional/sensitive issues with. Because I see and hear so much of this.
Anita: "you can't be rejected until the person knows you" Anita: "i don't date people i dont ask out" The dichotomy of expecting people not to expect things beyond or outside of friendship ever but predicating the idea of rejection or acceptance itself not existing until someone is intimately close, before even starting a relationship is probably the source of friendzones
you should probably try and dismantle this concept of being stuck in a «friend zone » it will be ultimately very damaging for all your relationships with women, instead you should focus on seeing them entirely as a person (which you need to know a person before you can develop any romantic feelings). Being immediately sexually attracted to someone isn’t enough and doesn’t entitle either party to seeking anything more than a friendship
Look, people work on a spectrum, not in clear cut boxes! You are not expected to never have a change of feelings in relationships or pretend you don't have feelingss. You are expected to give proper raport of where you are at and allow the other person to check where they are at. And you are expected to manage your emotions and behaviours REGARDLESS of the outcome of the negotiation. She does not date people she does not ask out, cause she needs time to develop feelings. Because she's got trauma to handle! -> You can like a person and befriend them to get to know each other. If you develop further feelings: talk! Process the outcome. -> if you already have feelings, talk right away about being interested in dating! Process the outcome! There is no "friend zone". That is what we call it, when: - a person enters a friendship although they clearly have romantic interest already (aka betrayal of friendship) - when friends develop romantic feelings, doesn't communicate them and is resentful (betrayal of friendship) - when a friend develops romantic feelings, communicates them, gets turned down, is presented with an option to part or stay friends, chooses friendship BUT does continue to feed their romantic feelings rather than processing them in order to have a fully blown frindship (aka betrayal of friendship) -> You do not need to be friends to get to know a person. It's called "dating" or "hanging out in group setting" or "being acquaintaned" -> You do not have to have stable feelings towards other people. We all change through time. You are expected to be ready to handle change maturely and be ready to seriously priorise your choices (aka be ready to lose a friendship and part ways in mutual respect OR take a break from friendship to process the romantic feelings and choose friendship without resentment). You can expect issues, if you cannot stabilise your thoughts and emotions within a relationship for prolonged periods "friend zone"'s true name is "resentment". Anita said, that a "no" to a stranger, is not a personal rejection. Anita said, that she gets to know people and then sometimes develops feelings and then communicates those. Noone said no friend can ever develop romantic feelings. What she talk about is "As women, we lose too many male friends to their inabiliy to process their feelings sufficiently and be capable of maintaining a friendship once we have ruled out romance!". Not the "having feelings" is the issue. It's the "not knowing how to attend to them in mature ways". Feelings happen all the time. If you ever fell in love with a high authority person (or distant celebrity), still could maintain a work relationship (or your sanity) and managed to get to the point where they were "a person you liked" but no longer a love interest, then you KNOW how to do it! We sure as heck do not blame people for loving deeply! We are upset with the expectation of that having to result in relationship and only romantic relationship. And we are very upset with attention that is objectifying and has nothing to do with love or romanic relationship (aka men struggling with knowing what their intrinsic motivators are). Or upset with even musual purely sexual agreements that end up not mutual, but rather self-serving on one end. I hope this helps to clarify some stuff. These seem to be key points that are frequently lost and miscommunicated.
No. Absolutely not. I fucking hate that phrase "friend zone." Becoming friends with someone allows you to actually get to know them. If you are unable to see women, even those you're initially attracted to first as a friend or someone to get to know, I dont know what to tell you. It's not seeing women as having some kind of humanistic intrinsic value, it's seeing them only as someone to potentially fuck.
Im Sorry, but i didn't understand her. if someone initially approaches you, they only want your body, but if they get to know you first and then feelings develop, they will also be rejected. the only hope for a relationship is to be interesting enough to be approached by a woman. i wonder where that leads.
I’m gonna be honest, if you want to talk to a girl go talk to her. Folk dunno what they want until they see it and all their rules go out the window if they find you attractive/appealing enough.
Bro, it's still not her responsibility to accept you. And it's not like getting to know someone isn't ever the first part of a relationship. But if you only get to know women because you want a committed/sexual/romantic relationship, your negative bias is going to do you in. People who have no expectations get luckier, luck being a construct of the mind of course.
I want to stress that almost every committed/sexual/romantic relationship between two people occurred after and was contingent on them getting to know each other and understanding each other subsequently. The only scenarios where this isn't true are people rushing shit, or people dating to get over bad breakups. And those are both catastrophic scenarios.
She is talking about her self. She isnt looking for a relationship. She is also demi sexual , she needs to have to know someone for a long time in order to develop feelings for them. What she talks about is people that keeps pushing when she isnt interested in them.
I think what she doesn't realize is that the primary reason that these guy's feel and behave this way is because the believe/were taught that love is transactional. "If I want any girl to like me I have to somehow become worthy of liking by doing xyz" is exactly what someone thinks when they don't think they are inherently deserving of love. I think some of this is from parenting issues, some of this is from early rejections in childhood traumatizing them, some of this for me was that people (girls and guys) often used me for various things and I learned that the only way to socialize with people was to let them use me and as a reverse I tried to use them back so it wasn't just people walking over me. Almost none of these behaviors are caused by inherent evil or often even malicious intentions. Their usually a mix of bad parenting, trauma, bad examples, and they are never taught how to live
Exactly, it's externalising your self worth and it affects both men and women. She showed quite a lack of empathy there which is a shame but I get that she has things in her past that may preclude her from doing so.
"I think what she doesn't realize is that the primary reason that these guy's feel and behave this way is because the believe/were taught that love is transactional." Then it's not love anymore, it's lust. Women are also transactional, the only difference is that they don't have to pretend not to be transactional in order to get la1d.
"If I want any girl to like me I have to somehow become worthy of liking by doing xyz" If I want any guy to like me, I have to somehow look pretty, youthful and have a hot body so that I get attention. Same ish. In that scenario, If either got rejected they're not a victim. They're just unattractive.
I made an edit below, if you relate please read it. I think a key part of not putting girls in the fuck zone is being aware that you’re romanticizing women. I used to do that, now I don’t. The problem is, when I stopped doing that I inadvertently killed off my feelings for romance entirely. I learned it’s not something I wanted, it’s something I did in the hope for love when all I want is to be able to be seen as a vulnerable man and accepted. Being romantic (when dating) was a performance with an intended outcome, not a genuine expression. So killing off the part of me that romanticizes women has kind of killed off a lot of dating for me because now I see it as jumping through hoops as opposed to something I enjoy. I don’t know how to fix this, if I should, or if I’m just aromantic or something. I’m still trying to date, but it’s harder because I’m not interested in playing a traditional role. I don’t want to pay for dinners, or protect anyone, or any of that traditional gibberish. I want genuine expressions that I emotionally connect to, or nothing. Edit 3/9 I learned that what I am is called “Gender Non-conforming.” I found out there’s a whole section of some dating apps full of people who feel like I do. If you relate, maybe check it out. I barely even read the google definition and instantly knew it’s how I’ve felt the whole damn time.
I feel you on this. When I learned about being more respectful and not sexualizing women, it killed any desire to approach women or feel okay viewing them in a sexual light.. I haven't found the solution either.
This is definitely for the best in the long run (woman here). You’re not focused on meeting a role that isn’t authentic to who you are. Now you can focus (if you want) on finding people who likewise aren’t interested in playing games, filling a function, and just want to be themselves. It’s a far better foundation for making real friendships, regardless of whether they also have a sexual or romantic aspect to them. I wish you well in figuring out who you are and what you are actually looking for. ❤
@@Dimitris_Half Not at all. Sex is incredible. I believe the term is aromantic (if that’s what’s actually happening) when someone doesn’t experience romance. Unfortunately, they’re not linked for everyone.
1:02:20 You can see that Sweet Anita has internalized a lot of misandry, herself. At every point in the interview, she consistently assumes the worst in men. She thinks that if a man has trouble talking to women, it's automatically because he's a bad person or wants to become some stereotypical "player", and not that he just....has trouble talking to women. It's deeply ironic -- even tragic, actually -- that she has such a lack of empathy towards men on an interview that began with her lamenting the lack of empathy for women. I think it's also very telling about the nature of the society that we live in today, which is endlessly embroiled in bullshit identity politics that are all predicated on each side pushing their personal grievances and nobody listening to the other side. She wants men to listen to her but refuses to listen in return. To be very fucking blunt, sayiing to men with approach anxiety, "Just talk to women," is like someone saying to her about her Tourette's Syndrome, "Just stop making those weird noises with your mouth!" Lol, does she SERIOUSLY not get it? We aren't living in a god damn Nike commercial. Some things in life just are not as simple as, "Just do it." The fact that SHE, with her background and condition, is unable to understand this is enough to make me give up on humanity, to be honest.
Honestly, this interview really rubbed me off the wrong way because of the misandry. Like sure she had issues with several men being POS on her stream and stalking her IRL. But her attitudes and behaviour shown here IMO is no different than one of an incel. (Like this interview gave me the same vibe when Dr. K interviewed that one incel.)
Yes, she's been harassed and stalked all her life because of her being a woman and her disability. Yet here you are playing the perfect victim because she has internalized misandry, very understandably. Give me a break
As an attractive 25 year old man, I have found that being a safe and respectful person towards women in every possible way allows the people around me to put their guards down. And it is from this unguarded position tends to flip the script. Women who like me approach me and let me know and can even sometimes treat me in ways that would typically make a girl uncomfortable if a man treated her in the same way. A way to shortcut this is to walk through the world in respect to whoever you'll end up with in the end of it all. Why waste time trying to manipulate someone else into intimacy when they have no desire to be intimate with you already? Just love yourself as if that person who wants you is already there and wants the best for you.
Oh that last part is great but I found it helpful not to say "as if", because I learnt that the person that loves me and wants the best for me is already there and it's myself. Learnt that after a harsh rejection. Now I'm engaged, 36 years old and 7 weeks out from the birth of my first son.
This is an interesting interview to listen to. As a woman, for me personally I would prefer to have feelings develop by getting to know each other. I want someone to value me for more than my looks, because as we age we will eventually lose the things that people may have found attractive initially. Friendship is a good basis that can lead to more. If a man is upfront about his romantic desires from day 1, I do appreciate that honesty but if they have not known me it's difficult for me to get something started so soon. In addition, a lot of these men who approached me about love had done so with a lot of extremely negative undertones of desperation and unrealistic expectations. Desperation adds pressure, which kills attraction for me. And expectations can result in disappointments. One spoke poorly about his ex girlfriend and was talking of ways to take revenge, or prove her wrong, which I am not here for. If he speaks poorly about an ex in such a way, I'd fear he would treat me with such vengefulness or bitterness as well. Negativity is fine to a certain extent, unless there are indicators this may be harmful for future relationships too. Key thing is pacing, I have spoken to women guilty of the above as well. I overshare too soon and lose opportunity to make friends because of that. Treat each other you like as you would a friend, build it up slowly over time, and it will increase chances. I'd definitely be attracted to a man who shows me their hobbies, I show mine, we spend time on activities and make our talks personal as time progresses.
Honestly this is a great post and this is how i learnt to do it as a guy. Honestly i don't ask woman out at all. It puts folks on the spot. I love being friends with folks though, i really value relationships with everyone, so there is no expectations. Not only can it be attractive to see the hobby, but sometimes you can share one you didn't know about. One day, you just turn around and you are looking at each other differently! It takes longer and more effort but it has worked for me. Its got be safer too, i think. Random person on street, that you like, how do u know if they are any good as a romantic partner. Also i've seen the movie Under the Skin...just saying lol
You are speaking in near direct opposition to Anita here and to me goes to show one of the reasons why dating and relationships are so difficult. There are no rules to this courting process, it's just "do whatever you want" and hope that the person sitting across from you views that as the appropriate courtship dance. It still to this day is amusing if not worthy of asking why it is that we humans can't agree on what rituals are to be performed in order to adequately and appropriately display mutual interest so as to seek to minimize suffering in the process. I believe both genders capable of coming to such a conclusion in the majority, but it is a question whether either gender has anything left in the tank to discuss the matter to create 1 plan that creates less painful experiences for both genders.
As a man I agree. Whatever happened to the idea of friendships turning into romantic relationships?? If a young man or boy doesn't know all this theory then it's natural of him to approach someone as a friend and then ask them out after getting to know them. So, no, not all men who are in the friend zone are trying to manipulate you. That's how men tend to think naturally, until a dating coach tells them to approach more directly. Try to apply it to yourself, how would you have gone about approaching a person you liked in highschool or elementary school? Most people would try to be friendly at first, it's not really manipulative.
@japjeetmehton9921 I think this whole shitty idea of the friendzone has got to die. It's stupid. I have had guys I've dated tell me that they see me more as a friend, I didn't take it to mean that I had been "friendzoned." It just meant that we weren't right for each other and that's okay. It's okay for people to change their minds, but its also okay for people to develop feelings as they get to know someone better, its natural! Friendzone bullshit tarnishes so many young men's ideas about the value of friendship with women. It is an idea borne out of only valuing women for sex and it needs to die.
The problem with Anita's perception of regection is that she both rejects and is being rejected. For quite a lot of men it's simply not the case. You just get rejected and you feel like there's no other way to get a date (even if you don't like her)
That is a major explanation that needs to be discussed but it’s not the only one. On top of men having to always be the pursuers, we are also in a loneliness epidemic that’s mostly affecting men. When you have basically nothing if this person rejects you, that makes it hurt more. Being able to fall back on good friends and more options for gfs makes it not hurt.
men are only able to gain social, flirting and dating skills by going out and pursuing it and women have to deal with a bunch and gain those skills. This is also why men kind of have to put more effort into approaching, women have seen the basic stuff before. Approaching men to try to make friends and even for sex/relationships doesn’t require as much effort into what you are saying
@@MaejorArray It IS mostly affecting men. Men are vastly more likely to live alone than women. Men are also VASTLY more likely to not be in a relationship or to have had one in the last years. Men are also having significantly lower amounts of sexual experiences and most men these days by 18 will be virgin, which is significantly lower for women. Why do you think redpill/tate/incel/MGTOW whatever communities are growing significantly? Also, the thing about violence is just straight up a misandry stereotype. It's like me saying women are just usually the ones to react with emotional abuse as a result of loneliness. Men = violent propagates the male sexuality being creepy stereotype.
@@manumaster1990 Stella rebuttal... They're not saying the violent reaction is inherently masculine / a born characteristic of men. It's taught. Violence and revenge is glorified in the media and culture overall as justice and a masculine action/reaction. So when reality comes knocking at the door of many young men without a support system plus who are emtionally closed off (also taught) making them realise, that they have to work at themselves to be *desirable* to women/girls as well adjusted people, then they lash out at women/girls (I.e. the desired objects) for rejections. Bc instead of the promise and images patriarchy sold to them irl women/girls are as complex of human beings as they're. Women on the other hand are taught to be gentle and open with emotions so it's easier to have close friendships that support eachother. And if a women is angry and or violent they're labelled as undesirable, rude, hysterical that's why female rage is suppressed as opposed to manifesting in violent ways. No putting any moral judgements on either sides. These are observations of what the system teaches to and expects of both genders.
I think what Anita said about rejection and the guy not knowing her and only desiring her on physical levels is right in a way. At the same time, I think it's a little off. It's not necessarily about being rejected as a person, for who you are, but about the chance of getting to know that person being rejected for reasons outside of one's understanding or grasp. For someone with rewarding friendships and a healthy social life, this would usually be fine *however* because many guys are often lonely or undersocialised being denied the chance to even get to know someone is saddening and can contribute to a kind of learned helplessness. It really strikes me as a non-intentional vicious circle :/
It's also how things work? So many chances, whether it's a job or friendships or relationships, is based on how you initially come across and once you've got a foot in the door then you can prove yourself as a person. I think her feeling weird about a guy approaching her because they find her attractive is something that's unhealthy.
@@iRiDiKiit’s a given that men being the pursuer is how things work even outside of dating. She plays dumb in the video to pretend like that isn’t the cade
I recently found out she's demisexual, so it actually makes a lot of sense in a way. If you didn't know, demisexuality is when a person doesn't feel sexual attraction until they have a deep connection with someone. She doesn't feel attracted to someone that she just met because she has no connection to them. My only real problem there, is it kinda feels like she struggles to understand how much her experience is different from 'the norm', for lack of a better term. Like, obviously she doesn't know what it's like to want to be with someone she doesn't know, but she doesn't seem to care that she doesn't know what that feels like. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it sounds like she decided her view was 'correct', and anyone who doesn't see things the same way doesn't deserve sympathy. I'd like to see more interviews with her, to maybe clear up some confusion.
its kind of terrifying, though. we live in a world where you’re supposed to have seggs on date three. i would literally never date a guy who asked me out when i barely knew him as a modest woman because i would either have to give in early or be humiliated for “leading him on.”
I find these videos with Sweet Anita to be the most interesting on the channel. You have two people with vast amounts of knowledge and information from two different perspectives that ask questions and give productive, well-articulated, and incredibly informative responses. This is the kind of civilized, productive discourse that is missing from society, and watching these actually makes me feel like some progress is being made to at least try to get viewers to understand the major problems in our society and give them some food for thought for coming up with solutions.
58:55 "We don't speak different languages". She's contradicting herself here. Earlier in the conversation, she talked about how women talk about emotions a lot more. Obviously, men and women communicate differently. Not just men and women. You talk differently to your grandmother, differently to your coworker, differently to your boss. Obviously, there are different styles of communication used in different circumstances. You don't go on a date and talk to your date as you would talk to your boss. And you don't go into a business meeting talking the same way you talked to the other person on a date the night before. That's what is meant by the question "how do I talk to women?". And I don't see why she's trying to portray it in a negative light when someone attempts to figure out how to actually communicate with another person in a different way.
Something that's really interesting psychologically is how little her tics are happening throughout this conversation. I would assume its a sign of how passionate and engaging the conversation was.
Anita is a smart and very well articulated person. I started watching some of her streams after seeing her first interviews with Dr. K., and I learned a lot about topics I didn't think much about. However, I also started to notice how in every stream she always seemed to talk about women's suffering in society and how awful men are. She's always citing statistics and shooting down any kind of different experience or opinion in chat. She was even straight-up mean to her audience several times, treating her viewers as pathetic and inept men who were only watching her with the hopes of getting sexual with her. So much so, that, try as I might to brush off her generalizations, it started to really affect my self-esteem and make me feel awful and demoralized, even though I'm just a normal and decent human being like most people, and not a manipulative creep or whatever. I just had to stop watching her for my own mental health sake. I still think she can be smart, funny and kind, but she's not as empathetic as she thinks. Maybe due to her awful experiences with men, she's very dismissive of the feelings and struggles of men, which is ironic considering she's all about making men empathize with the feelings and struggles of women (which I think she succeeds in doing, like in this video). Anyway, I think these kinds of issues are complex and we should continue to cultivate compassion and empathy in our society by openly talking about these kinds of experiences, like in this video. To any men reading this, I just hope you know you are not a creep for finding a person interesting and wanting to get to know them, or wanting to find a romantic relationship, or fearing being rejected. Most people (men and women) are pretty decent and they go through more similar experiences than they realize.
I love everything you said. I think there can be something problematic when we generalize and talk about groups and try to find the bad guys. I don't think men are worse than women. I think some men, a small percentage are awful. But why do all men have to hear about it when they have nothing to do with it? Why do men, in general, need to do better, when most men are just normal people? Why educate people only on how hard it is to be woman? For example dr K makes videos usually for anyone, and many times about men, but he has also talked about female struggles a bit. We don't need to pick a side, we are not enemies, it's not a competition, and we can all learn about each others problems and be supportive. I think understanding and listening will help us more than being condescending and dismissive to other groups.
Considering she has an unfortunate history of being stalked, harassed, and received credible threats of death/rape, it doesn't surprise me one bit that she would be biased against men. She has every reason to. The shit she's been through is traumatizing to anyone.
It’s not exactly on her to be a source of validation for men though. I understand her frustrations when often times the topics she discusses are immediately shot down (hence why she has to constantly refer to statistics, as she is used to being bombarded with how these experiences aren’t real). So while I can see why this would make a guy feel wary of how they may come across to the point that it usurps the desire to listen in, I think the way she has evolved is a direct consequence of not only her personal irl experiences, but how painfully commonplace sexism (and sexism denial, funnily enough) is on the internet. A lot of guys also hold onto a lot of subtle biases in the way they even perceive women, which is hard to catch due to how men are often taught to not self reflect on their emotions for too long. I do think that if you aren’t a creep as you say you are, you shouldn’t feel targeted by her commentary in the first place, although I can see how the instinctual response would be to feel defensive
@Maria Santos I just wanna say that I appreciate seeing reasonable comments like this that don't just bash anyone who doesn't instantly agree with everything that was said. Level-headed discussion is sorely needed on this topic! I also like your point about defensiveness. It's easy for us to react defensively, especially when we've had experiences in the past of people disregarding our views or concerns, which is sadly quite common for men. But if someone says something that we feel is unfair or doesn't represent us, instead of reacting defensively we can choose to try to prove ourselves through our actions and how we interact with others.
One thing about the friendzone, as someone who was put into it by my first .... well, love, I guess, is that it doesn't always happen just by completely platonic interaction. In my case, we went on dates, kissed, made out, she sent me a postcard at one time when I was on vacation, saying how she misses me and spending time with me was "magical" (which is indeed something I still remember because even almost 20 years later, nobody has EVER said something like that to me again, even across multiple relationships). Then at some point she told me she just liked me as a friend and didn't want to lead me on. Well excuse me, woman! If that was you not wanting to lead me on, I shudder to think what it would look like to have you actually interested in someone. So yeah.... while I do understand the case of complete and utter loners mistaking basic human kindness as a sign of romantic attraction, there are certainly also cases of actual attraction that somehow didn't seem to be enough for whatever reason. So I daresay the topic is probably fairly nuanced, and there are people on both sides who cause an issue by their sheer cluelessness or indecision...
Yeah that’s a breakup not a friend zone. Uncool situation but it happens. There’s lots of dating where ‘we’re just friends/not exclusive/just casual’ sort of stuff when only one party knows of that going on. People suck sometimes
@@vortexvibes5944 I don't even think it's that. The attraction had a built in sell by date which she probably wasn't even aware of and couldn't predict. Maybe she saw something in him and time away/reflection made her change her mind. I read so many comments like the OP and because no one likes being rejected, they will criticise the one who rejected one without thinking that maybe they had valid reasons; they just don't know what they are or couldn't accept them if they did.
@@vortexvibes5944 Nah, I wouldn't see it as a breakup, we were never really together. It felt like it was going to go in the right direction until it wasn't, but it wasn't really there ...
@@rejectionisprotection4448 I mean, I didn't ever criticize her. Not that kinda guy, why would I react with hostility to someone I loved, even if it was reacting to their rejection? It took me over a decade to really get over it though. I never found out the why of it - don't get me wrong, I wondered about it every day for years - but maybe that's for the best. She did tell me she didn't want to lose me as a friend (maybe she thought that since relationships are usually temporary, and the ones she experienced ended messily, we would hate each other afterwards. I dunno. I only know that I never had a bad breakup in my life, I'm still good friends with my first ex - and ironically, even better friends with her new bf). Turns out she lost me anyway since we drifted apart afterwards. Ah well. It is how it is I guess.
@@rogthepirate4593 That's the thing; there's no easy why. It may not even be tangible to her either. People often laugh at the phrase: "it's me, not you". From my pov, it's true. You can be going along fine, then something changes within, a realisation that where you're at isn't where you want or even need to be. It could be a relationship, a job, a way of life you thought was right for you. You can't always predict this either. Not criticising her or being angry at her rejection is irrelevant because it wasn't about you. She was being genuine with you as she could be during your dates, but then had a change of heart. The phrase: "People are in your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime" is quite pertinent and often comforting as well.
The problem is that men are constantly told they are shallow for judging on appearances and that women never do that. In reality, women judge partners just like men, in the first 10 seconds on appearance. You were never friend zoned, she just didn't want you. Women also resent being friend zoned. I have always tried to be kind and considerate to people regardless of male/female. Heaven forbid, if you don't reciprocate the advances of one of your female friends. They will hate you.
Omg the part about the friendzone where Anita says men think she is coming onto them just because she is doing baseline friend things was mindblowing. Made me realize I used to think that too of some of my female friends too (and I am gay).
I have the reverse happen because I am an average looking woman, I will be friendly to guys I meet and they will deliberately blank me because they think I'm trying to crack onto them! Just because I'm being friendly! There really is a massive gap in our society regarding reading social cues and I think it would be awesome if people did more to educate themselves and each other, it would probably help a lot of neurodivergent folks to whom these cues don't come naturally, too!
The unique challenge with men is that they are people who desire physical intimacy and romantic affection but are without the strategies and tools in order to satisfy them. What’s frustrating is hearing the shame, insults, and guilt hurled at men without offering any solutions aside from platitudes such as, “be yourself,” or, “confidence is key.” Critikal/Penguinz is especially guilty of this. You want men to do better and then continuously chastise men for even trying. How else does someone learn aside from trial and error? On top of not having a viable source of information to learn the social skills that would resolve much of this. Then when women get together with men who are the complete opposite of the typically afflicted “nice guy syndrome.” It’s send mixed signals and feels like a crapshoot, which in turn creates more A-holes. Combine that with this overarching pernicious attitude towards men from law, culture, media, and so on. It’s as if men are caught between a rock and hard place. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. It’s hard to empathize with a group of people (women) who are privileged with the sort of attention men want. B/c pretty privilege can take you pretty damn far. The majority of men cannot do this and have to develop a skill to receive this sort of recognition. It’s nice to hear some level of empathy from Anita. Most gestures like this are paltry by comparison. As for the rejection thing. Men don’t know you from a hole in the wall at first. All there is go on is how you look. The thing is the more a man is attracted to a woman the more invested they are in the outcome of the interaction. This results in men overthinking, future pacing, and hindering their ability to be confident, socially flexible, and spontaneous. An equitable scenario would be for women to place themselves in the position of sales. Each call feels as if it’s do or die with someone who looks about as friendly as a prisoner with money and it’s the salesperson’s last chance of keeping their job and paying their bills. That’s how it feels like for men. All. The. Time.
Isaac, when I feel burned out by the anxiety of the job, then what I do as a woman, is shift focus and self-care. Men are offered incredible loads of insights and input on how things can work better. The whole movement of feminism is exactly about adressing "What is not working, if you looked at it from the side of the person you are unsuccessfully pursuing". You said it yourself: Men are not well equipped to deal with these issues and hence "the lack of efficient help from men to men" is a pressing issue and not women doing their best to help, even though men are really ill equipped to listen to women (NOT by choice! It's a grave systemic issue that impacts all people equally, but within the spectrum of genders in different manner!) Do you understand, that plenty of women have no struggle to relate to how the whole dynamic is hard on men? While many men honestly struggle to concentrate on anything but their own side of the struggle. And when we have compassion, then the thing that does NOT happen, is that the focus is shifted. On the contrary. When we have compassion, we are stuck focusing on the perspective of men or we move on to "normal life" while frequently forgetting to attend to what issues are still left to process on the side of the female partner. Because men tend to be ill equipped in this way! We really really need you to start to understand, that you are the ones with the task to address the issue of "not helpful advice". You have to find out amongst men, why you lack helpful advice. You need to specify how and why it's not helpful and start asking more questions about these things! And it's vital that you yourselves decide to research and that you stop trying to get information about female perspectives solely from male peers! See the difference? --> Male peer group: Research WHAT is the problem, WHAT are the needs, WHAT are the expectations? WHAT is the assumed price for the partner for that expectation? --> Female peers: Ask for consent to clarify questions! Have a plan to attend to your emotions when feedback triggers you (cause it will and it's your job to be ready for that), present your conclusions about things regarding the dynamic and receive more input on it. Do you understand that women are constantly expected to do this hell load of emotional labor and "management of disregulation and confusion in men" just like you are expected to do stuff like financial labor or "labor of being the person who requests dates"? None of them is OK. We really gotta stop and regroup and stop taking ownerships that go past 50%. Dr.K is here to help us gather perspectives and help spot what is going on for whom. And in an upcomig step, we might head towards forming pools of helpful advice. Still, please, attend to your needs. They are your job!! When you find advice to be lacking, then talk about that! Come to HG discord and start asking more specific questions that concern your sppecific case!!! :3
@@KxNOxUTA "Men are offered incredible loads of insights and input on how things can work better. The whole movement of feminism is exactly about adressing What is not working, if you looked at it from the side of the person you are unsuccessfully pursuing." you must be joking... it's exactly the opposite of what you wrote. that movement nowadays has nothing to do with the suffragettes of the early 1900s; now that movement systematically seeks to destroy every human being born male in western countries. accumulating more and more privileges and reducing more and more responsibilities and reciprocity in women.
@@KxNOxUTA As a man I can tell you that most advice given to men who struggle with this stuff is borderline useless. Sorry but it is. It reeks of giving the most basic advice possible while trying to swat men to the side. Hell, 90% of the advice I hear is simply “go see a therapist” and nothing else, which is essentially the same as “Our movement don’t actually know how to solve these problems but maybe if you’re rich enough you can pay someone else to hear you rant about them so that we don’t have to”. It’s like trying to educate someone by simply saying “read a book”. It gets even more frustrating to hear this when you already go to therapy. Like they always assume men just aren’t trying hard enough. It’s dehumanizing and exhausting.
"It’s hard to empathize with a group of people (women) who are privileged with the sort of attention men want." You want the attention but women don't want it, they want the top tier men's attention. Remember that we're difference. Would you feel privileged If you only get attention from 60 year old or obese women? or would that be bothersome? that's how most pretty women view average men so getting attention from them is not a privilege. Yall preach that men and women are different but when it comes to this particular topic yall forget that fact. "As for the rejection thing. Men don’t know you from a hole in the wall at first. All there is go on is how you look. The thing is the more a man is attracted to a woman the more invested they are in the outcome of the interaction. " And this is where I lose sympathy for men because you were not in love, you are in lust. You are not a victim, you are just unattractive. So the prettier a woman gets, the more invisible you become. They're giving the same energy back.
"The stigma of female sexuality" part resonated with me. There's plenty more where that came from, sadly, and oftentimes comes directly from our mothers, aunts, sisters, friends. Unfortunately, we women also keep that stigma going
facts. internalized misogyny is VERY much a thing. Patriarchal norms are perpetuated by both genders. It's perpetuated by both genders and everyone suffers under it.
it's fake actually. you don't live in saudi arabia, in the west for example if you are a woman owning sex toys is considered empowering, while if a man owns them for himself it is considered a loser.
Stigmas & judgements are all around, on the women AND on men. Reality is complex. ^^ As there is stigma & judgments on women having a lof of sex ("sl*ts"), there is also a lot of stigma on men having very little sex ("rejects", losers, non-voluntary "inc*ls"). Men can also be shunned as "sl*ts", and women can also be shunned as "rejects". If there is confusion ^^: I'm talking stereotypes and generalizations; obviously, there always are numerous exceptions to the rule.
@@manumaster1990So two wrongs make a right to you? Men being shamed for owning sex toys AND women being shamed for sleeping with many people are both true phenomenon. That's why in progressives spaces ppl cheer women on for being open about their sexual needs, bc it's not historically accepted for women to admit that they have libido too or even to be enthusiastic about sex. Ppl shame men for being sexless and that's not okay either.
@@manumaster1990 what? Do u live around any Christians. There is alot of stigma of female sexuality in the Christian community and most people r Christian or has a lot of Christian culture in them
Fun thing I’ve learned from experience is that even if my feelings are not mutual, so long as the others don’t feel uncomfortable about still maintaining friendships…sometimes that’s made the friendship waaaay better. Now I don’t need to worry about some feelings getting in the way of friendship.
I think a key misunderstanding here is that these feelings aren’t always there when you first meet. I have met girls before that I was totally platonic with and became friends. Then as I got to know them a bit better, I started to appreciate them more and developed romantic feelings. There was no ulterior motive there and I wasn’t hiding my feelings because I legitimately wasn’t interested in them at first. It was only over time that I started to think about them in that way. I think in this type of situation it’s best to acknowledge those feelings and have a conversation with your friend about it as soon as possible
I think the experience that Anita talks of is different from that. To speak on my own experience, I've had people be genuine friends with me and then express interest in me and it be okay even though I didn't reciprocate, but I've also had men who make it clear that they weren't friends with me because they actually enjoyed my company. They just acted like my friend (at least in the latter half of the friendship) because they thought if they do X Y and Z then it will end in a relationship or sex. It's very clear the difference once you experience both. It's very different when someone stops being friends with you because they find no value in you once they find out they'll never get sex from you versus vocalizing that they need to pull back from the friendship in order to manage their romantic feelings. I have my own experience being "friendzoned" and we just had to talk about it and I had to pull back to set boundaries so that we can still be friends, because I still wanted to be his friend and wanted him to be in my life. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I worded that well.
1:05:56 The statement was in essence "You're not afraid of [romantic] rejection, so it's not surprising that you have trouble empathizing with men who are afraid of rejection", and then she starts talking about doctors and teachers in an attempt to validate not empathizing with that specific group because that group does not deserve understanding nor empathy. At one point in the interview she said something along the lines of "Men don't view women as people, I however view men as individuals" which is clearly her projecting her own attitude towards the opposite gender, she probably *wants* to view men as individuals but clearly doesn't or even has the energy to attempt to do so.
12:25 Yeah, the reason is called evolution with its economy of reproduction. _edit:_ After listening to the entire discussion I've reached the conclusion that this woman is utterly clueless regarding why men or women tend to act/think in some ways - it's as if she's never read or listened to something about evolutionary biology & psychology. She's spewing Feminist talking points from at least 10 yrs ago.
No, absolutely not! She is so clueless about what rejection is! Rejection is not the same thing as resistance. When she bought flowers for a guy and he didn't like the flowers, that was called resistance. He rejected her flowers, not her unspoken proposal. He resisted her advances. Someone not continuing a conversation due to lack of interest is not the same thing as rejecting a proposal to go on a date. It's just not. I remember someone being all mysterious trying to date me being anonymous and sending me a gift and I didn't know who it was. The person probably thought I wasn't interested in her. You might even say that I resisted her advances. But I didn't even know what her intentions were at the time, so I didn't reject her. I didn't even get the chance to reject her. Women do not give themselves a chance to get rejected, they don't give men a chance to reject them. They are apparently just as terrified of rejection as we are, and yet they still don't experience it as much as we do.
I think the fear rejection also has to do with the fact that approaching women especially when we are young is basically putting our self in a state of emotional voulnerability we arent put into before in our life. Having to suddenly interface with the world in a way that you have been told not to ( emotionally ) is really hard. We are told that we should supress emotion and we are also told that the one person you can emotionally be open with is your romantic partner. It creates a no win situation where if you want a romantic partner you have to open up emotionally but if you do and that gets rejected you are devistated because finally you opened up to someone and you got hurt. It’s absolutely not fair to blame women for this. We need to stop raising children in a way that stunts their ability to engage emotionally with the world.
this ^^^^^ omg this comment, thank you. Exactly. What you're describing are patriarchal norms and it's literally a case of emotional arrested development for boys and men. Like that is so fucked up we just gaslight boys and men into just not having emotions which is not how that works. It's a form of emotional and psychological detachment from their own selves. I don't understand why "emotion" is even a charged or bad word in the first place, like it's literally part of the human condition. There's nothing inherently bad or good about emotions, they just are.
I feel like the men she is talking about are the 3% of weirdos in her chat and they do not represent the average bloke on the street trying to be a decent guy. The assumptions she is making are partly just insulting. This Interview left me somewhat hopeless.
Probably why she doesn't fear the average guy on the street just as much. A lot of my fears of men went away when I left the idea of gaming college behind as well as leaving a very archaic church. But I still feel the fear now and then when I'm in certain environments. But most of the time I don't feel any creepy guys leering at me with hidden intentions. It's very much where you go
Friendzone/Fuckzone nonsense. 😕 I used to think like Anita. Because it’s sad to lose a friend, when they have unrequited romantic feelings for you. It’s easy to feel angry. But falling for someone isn’t a bad thing to do! And if it’s unrequited, breaking off the friendship is probably healthy. Sure it’s sad, but it’s no one’s fault.
@@Dimitris_Half let me ask you this.. if 20 men and women lived in jungle as tribe and men share everything with tribe , like they hunt for the tribe and protect from outside tribes, arent they entitled to womens romance in their tribes ? which is the only thing they offer. they cant fight as good as you and lacking in other areas. isnt it rude if men provide their services freely but women dont provide theirs, withhold to gain leverage and benefits for themselves within the tribe? i mean logical thing is to separate them and they should fend for themselves. friendzone is the same logic. its a unfair exchange of services. tbh this applies to the country.
@@Dimitris_Half your generation confuses wanting something with being entitled to it. I want a million dollars, I'm not entitled to it. Wanting a relationship with someone is not the same as feeling entitled to having a relationship with someone. Words matter.
@@ShermanWilliamsVideo yes you are entitled to it.. unless you are being politically correct..its unequal exchange of services if 20 men and women lived in jungle as tribe and men share everything with tribe , like they hunt for the tribe and protect from outside tribes, arent they entitled to womens romance in their tribes ? which is the only thing they offer. they cant fight as good as you and lacking in other areas. isnt it rude if men provide their services freely but women dont provide theirs, withhold to gain leverage and benefits for themselves within the tribe? i mean logical thing is to separate them and they should fend for themselves. friendzone is the same logic. its a unfair exchange of services. tbh this applies to the country. women want mens attention and men want to smash. friendzone gives them what they want but withhold what you want.
She's missing the point on couple of occasions. E.g. I personally reject majority of people after seeing them behave in certain way or after hearing 2-3 sentences they say. If I were wrong more often than not I would stop behaving like that but it works extremely well. Ignoring the first impression usually turns out to be mistake.
1:08:38 For someone who says she suffered from social anxiety, she has no empathy whatsoever. Pretty women are intimidating to most men, especially guys who are awkward to begin with. Lusting after your body has nothing to do with it. Some people, for example, are on the autism spectrum and can't even look people in the eye regardless of gender. She judges a man's shyness as an attack on her right to be perceived as an equal? Pure misandrist paranoia.
I just want to speak on Anita's thoughts on a guy across the room working up the courage to talk to her. The way she explains it, it just sounds so blissfully emotionally straight forward. For me at least pretty women elicit a strong feeling of apprehension in me that I have a psychologically have a need to overcome. To then approach a woman despite the fear elicits a feeling of triumph over my internal state. It's almost a form of therapy to work through deep feelings of inadequacy in the presence of women. And to that extent it is not fair to treat women as therapeutic objects to overcome my deep-seeded personal issues.
Isnt it normal to not wanna be friends with someone who rejected you? I mean I don't wanna be friends, I wanna be together but since you don't want that this relationship is done. Would be to hurtful to be with a girl you actually like knowing nothing can happen between you. Guys aren't entitled to romantic relationship with a girl just because he likes her And Girls aren't entitled to a friendship with a guy who they have rejected.
It's like if someone who you trusted and felt close to came to you one day all of a sudden and said "I want you to build me a house". And when you said no (and also how did they even get the idea), they'd say you no longer can be friends. Like sure, you're not entitled to their friendship, but also WTF? What house? There was never talk of any house. And now you're losing a friend over it. What the hell?
I agree, it's better to cut it off than staying in a friendship with unmet needs. The frustration will just boil over for the rejected person, go find someone else you'll have a more fulfilling relationship with.
entitlement is one thing and pretending is another. She was clear from the jump to her male friends that they're just friends and they accepted it but stopped because they can't pretend to be her friend anymore. Now that's on you.
How i'd put into words the difference between different genders on rejection is that men will assume they themselves are the problem and the girls will assume that the circumstance is the problem. And for men it's not only women, it's also high status men. If I go talk to a high status man and he rejects me as a potential friend for example. When going up to an attractive woman and getting rejected, the conclusion is that I'm just not high status enough or good looking enough and that thought is scary and does bad things to my confidence. So when getting rejected enough many times, those thoughts, through my own confidence and sense of worth, will further make me think that I'm getting rejected because of me and not because of just bad timing or something. I believe that women too get rejected but not with enough consistency for it to spiral like this.
Yah that's why I like it when women don't use a flat-out rejection either saying I don't want anything right now or I'm already in a relationship. Otherwise it often feels like the women rejecting me are saying I know almost nothing about you but what I can see is so bad it's not even worth the effort of looking deeper.
On the idea of fear of rejection, a lot could be tied to the fact that men are the ones who initiates in most times. usually to strangers. And when you see a stranger, looks is all you can go for. So essentially a no feels like "you dont look like a person worthy of my time" which can trigger all kinds of insecurities. Another thing is that I found it wierd hw she seemed mad, or atleast upset, about guys asking how to be better with women. As if wanting someone you like to like you back is somehow a bad thing.
Yeah that part low-key frustrated me. She talked earlier about how male sexuality is unhealthily repressed, and then shamed and labeled guys as horny animals for expressing their sexuality by flirting with strangers
She seemed confused about men "wanting to know how to talk to women", I say this because she states that you just talk to them like you would any other person and seems to think this means that men don't see women as people. The problem here is that by just talking to them like you would to any of your guy friends you are not expressing any desire to be a potential mate. Then next thing you know the woman only considers the man as a friend and nothing more leading the man to feel hurt and rejected if he actually does try putting his feelings out there and it doesn't work. Communicating friendship is different than communicating courtship.
The bridging the gap and jail example is excessive. At jail I know I'm around a bunch of people that don't care about breaking laws. As a COMPLETELY STRAIGHT man, I've been to LGBT+ bars and spaces with friends and had other men show attraction to me or attempt to buy me drinks. It's awkward at times but overall not that bad. If respectful, it's even oddly flattering despite the COMPLETE lack of attraction. I imagine it happening in jail would be MUCH WORSE. Also in that example I think many men are more fearful of the attack on their traditional masculinity then the sense of general unwanted attention itself.
I percieved what Anita said about feeling rejection is that she feels rejection when it is personal rejection. As in - You know me, my personality, my quirks, my mannerisms, my other friends/family etc. You are rejecting who I am... But when a man asks a woman out and they don't know each other its only based on looks or if they are busy or not in that moment. It isn't like they are getting personally rejected for who they are as a person.
Working up courage to go out and ask and having it not work out is still discouraging. Happens enough times and I’m sure any guy would start to feel like shit. What else is a normal human brain supposed to think when the only common factor is them in those situations? Rationally they know it isn’t them. But it sure feels like it.
@@uh4875 I agree. She's a very strong person and I admire that. I think most people are a bit more sensitive when it comes to this though. So we feel a bit down on ourselves for a little bit. We will be rejected many times before we find someone we date and that's not going to change and I don't think that's a problem. We feel rejected when we apply to a hundred jobs and don't get a single one, even if we got a couple interviews. We feel rejected when friends flake last minute on plans. We feel rejected when we ask someone out and they say no (for any reason). Maybe we don't all feel it to the same degree for each of these things, but speaking from my experience and talking a lot with my friends, these all seem common. So I think it's important to practice a response to rejection. If you're someone who gets very hurt by rejection, romantic or not, I think it's important to admit that and think about what makes you feel valued. For me, I look at my old scrapbooks, yearbooks, certificates (if it's from job hunting and I hear nothing back ToT), and I'll talk to my mom or grandma. If I know I might feel rejected later, like after asking someone out or after an interview, I actually plan in advance to get dinner with friends for that night because just by talking and laughing and hanging out with them I feel valued again. So if someone is hurt by rejection I think it's important to find what helps you. There are too many things out of our control that can make us feel that way, so we need to find ways to cope.
@@corneliahanimann2173 that's a good question and I wonder that too. How many times have we been told by our parents/guardians "not right now, I'm busy." When we approached them with something we thought was exciting? They didn't say "I don't love you enough right now kid, this is more important to me than you. You wait." But it can feel like that. Why? And why is it so different depending on who you talk to? For me, it wasn't that extreme, I didn't feel horrible if this situation happened as a child, but I did feel deflated and disappointed. I felt somewhat rejected. What I'm trying to say is that people can feel rejected even when it is nothing to do with them personally in numerous scenarios, not just asking someone out. If someone is aware they feel personally rejected even though they know it isn't about them (as in someone was just unavailable), can they figure out a way to cope? Why do so many people not have that? Can they find this same response in these other scenarios, or is dating a special case scenario? I think dealing with non-personal rejection is a bigger thing than just when you ask out someone new. My other reply talks more about that...
I actually disagree. She is bias in supporting her own ideas if they are to benefit her, but she shows no empathy (more or less inexperience) she’s very divisive, she doesn’t unite. She’s very biased that “MEN ARE WRONG AND WOMEN ARE RIGHT.” But Anita fails to understand men are also victims in this too. No one is born to be a predator. Anita has been conditioned and man I could imagine what a struggle that is not be diagnosed with Tourette’s and the stigma Anita had to face, that is Anita’s strength and empowerment. BUT! She is also forcing that narrative in everyone. “If I can do it, YIU-CAN-DO-IT-TOO!” That is not how it works and that will cause a division.
I think I know what is the problem with the her understanding. When you have negative outlook on yourself and it's hard then to ask someone out. Every NO you get is the confirmation of what you think of yourself. That's why it hurts so much and you feel rejected, unattractive, you think you will not find anyone ever. Probably she has healthy self-image and combined with hi maturity is why it's bothering her less than men.
I find it funny that Anita speaks of empathy and that men need to have more empathy for women and yet during this entire video her hatred and lack of empathy for men is so apparent. Not even trying to understand what rejection is like for most men and what most men go through in this read was telling enough on the type of argument she was trying to purpose.
She won't concede a single push back from the doc. She doesn't realise how much of a hypocrite she is. Whenever he tries to get a single admission or attempt to see the male point of view she sheds the most negative light on how the man would be feeling or that he only wants a root when approaching woman. Like she feels like a sex object right? Theres a heap of men who would only want a loving relationship and are nervous and she equates it to them being creepy and only wanting roots. It’s just absurd. Such deep rooted feminist thinking and talking points. Its kind of infuriating. She’s saying oh I’ve experienced rejection, why can’t men just get over it… I mean cmon. There’s guys out here who have never even been hugged or felt a loving embrace ffs. She cant come close to that. Women and men aren’t exactly the same. We have different sets of issues and expects empathy for her constant male attention and the threat of being violated but literally craps on men at the same time for their different but equally shitty situations
This is like a super intense version of main character syndrome, and being attractive and popular is a terrible way to extrapolate on what the human experience is like more than like 1% of the time. She’s way too aggressive and confident that *her* way is the only right way and interpretation of interpersonal and inter-gender interactions. She was shy and just let others dictate her world, and this seems like an overcorrection by a lot.
I suspect that the type of friendships that Anita wants to have with men are very emotionally close. Honestly, that’s not always appropriate. Better boundaries = better friendships.
"My definition of a friendship overlaps with your definition of romantic engagement so clearly it's your fault and sucks to be you" there must be a saner middle ground here....
I would definitely agree that it's not as simple and clearcut as Anita puts it/her experiences. Responsability for this isn't 100% on the man's shoulders, even though he SHOULD make his intentions clear from the get-go (which takes confidence and social sophistication with male/female dynamics, which is something that is never taught but men are magically supposed to know). But having intimate friendship with the opposite sex is fraught with blurry lines and unclear boundaries potential (for both sides, although it's usually the men that tend to be more intimacy-starved and so "fall" for her).
She says she's been rejected for her tourettes a lot and yet cannot fathom how you could reject someone without actually knowing them? According to herself, she has experienced rejection of people that didn't even know her and did not want to get to know her over and over in her youth.
It's a mess... She made some good points, but there are inconsistencies. She's also feeling hurt and rejected by the friends who "fuck zoned" her. Yet they should not feel rejected and hurt because they had feelings for her... Eeehh...
When someone rejects "you" for your disability without knowing you they aren't actually rejecting YOU they are rejecting your disability. It's part of you sure but it's not You.
At around 1:14:39 she asks how can you reject someone before knowing them. And I think the answer should have been, that rejecting someone immediately is rejecting the outer appearance and not the inner self. If someone knew you then rejected you, they rejected the true you. So it’s sort of like a defense mechanism.
I watched all their interviews in a row. The first two were great. A smart, intelligent girl who talks, listens, learns and grows. The previous episode was different. Anita was doing a stream. She went on multi-minute tirades about how society is bad, roommates steal her underwear, and friends have a hidden agenda to manipulate her into a relationship. She felt victimized. When Dr. K pointed out that there was a pattern in her and her mother's lives, so she had the opportunity to make a difference, Anita became really angry, saying that the doctor was blaming her. From that point on, he stopped talking to her on such a deep level. Anita's problem is that her horizons are not as broad as she thinks they are. She makes a lot of assumptions about what others think. When talking about guys she simplifies their inner lives and uses templates. She selects facts from history that suit her, ignoring those facts that contradict it. She selects toxic statements from her chat as the voice of society. She does the same with the studies she selects to support her thesis. And the thesis is that she is a victim of manipulation, that society is systemically unfair to women, and she won't change anything, because it's not her fault, it's not the family pattern, it's the pheromones. Yes, the previous episode and the first part of this one were somewhat unpleasant to watch. I like her. I really do. I'm glad that from the middle of the recording she stopped making her long theses, went back to talking to K, and as she admitted, she learned something new. I hope to see her open to conversation again in the next episode.
@@MM_Legacy I agree 100%. It's obvious that she's been hurt so much in so many different ways that she fails to see that there's bad, sick people and that there's normal ones. When I listened to the part about women being degraded using sexuality against them or prostitutes / porn stars getting murdered I was like "who the hell does this?!" but the way she talked about it made it seem like she almost believes everyone's capable of violence of that degree when in reality the majority of people are repulsed just by thinking of these acts
For myself, the act of beginning a conversation is the most difficult part. It has nothing to do with how others will perceive. I have intentionally so few friends, and I don’t talk about women to them or family until I’ve been dating someone a while is promising. The issue I have in handling rejection, is that I don’t feel worthwhile to much of anyone outside my parents. People historically haven’t prioritized putting time and effort into me. So I just don’t bother (that and I know women get hit on undesirably enough). The only thing I’ve been able to do is some very sparse speed dating or other events like that where the other side is intentionally there. So the risk for me in this scenario is putting another vote on the “another person doesn’t see enough in you” side of the already touching the floor scale. I just don’t have the self esteem to be confident in believing someone is looking for me. Confidence comes from experience, which turns out to be a catch twenty-two for people who care how others perceive their own character.
Ah I don't know if it helps but thank you for you concern for us, very tired women, it sound sincere, even though it doesn't seem to help you anyhow, but still thank you
I don't know if it helps or not, but I don't look at dating as "I hope someone out there accepts me" so much as "I hope someone out there is right for me". I don't really see someone turning down a date as somehow my fault or some kind of flaw or defect with me. We're just not a fit. Hell, I originally asked my husband out and he declined, at the time it wasn't meant to be. Later we were in a better place to date and things worked out. Sometimes people are just not in the right place or not the right person at the time. I think approaching dating with the mindset of "I just want someone to say yes" actually sets you back. It gives the experience extra pressure and other people feel that as desperation. They may not feel that you actually are interested in them so much as you want someone at all, even if that isn't the case, and most people don't want to feel like they are seen as "you'll do" you know? I know it may seem like an "easier said than done" sort of thing but I hope a different perspective helps a little bit.
I relate so much to this! And I don't know what to do about it... going for online dating or a similar avenue seems to make sense at first. At least people are there for the express purpose of dating, so I don't need to feel bad for hitting on someone. But it's terribly exhausting, traditional gender roles are still somewhat expected, and nobody I met from online dating ended up being interested in me in the end, just adding to the feeling of being an uninteresting person little by little. It just sucks, and it often feels like there is no way out other than just pure luck
@@Alron222 Online dating is terrible. Watch Dr K's video on it. They don't actually want you to find a date because then you won't use the service anymore.
I think you got the part about confidence the wrong way around. Confidence doesn't really come from experience, but a lack of confidence does (at least in the case of personal interactions). Everyone is born confident; it's our experiences that chip away our confidence (i.e. have you ever seen an infant struggle with insecurities?). A lack of confidence is simply learned behaviour, and as with anything that can be learned, it can also be unlearned. Try asking yourself the question "why do I believe that I'm not good enough?" or "why do I believe that I'm not worthy of other people's time or affection?" and the answer will shine a light on the beliefs that are actively holding you back. In order to reflect on it, it can be helpful to write down the answer and read it back at a later point. Hope this helps.
the rejection thing i think has some to do with the undersexualization of men, like "this girl is about to open up or get creeped out based solely on my appearance & how i approach her" so it's a blow to a part of our ego that's already at a deficit. I think that evolutionary biology explains a lot more of what goes on in our heads than we want to admit.
Should people have to be sexualized in order for them to feel good about themselves? Should we just be respectful of people and see them as people instead of potential notches on the bedpost? Have we turned people (women) into a personal commodity to flaunt one's ability to be desired and wanted? I think "sex sells" advertisement campaigns has gone to another level of "sex sells the image of desirability" for people on a personal level which turns women (both in sense of body count and also visual aesthetic of attractiveness) into a form of social currency. I think there's a way of not seeing women (and men) as objects to look at but as fully formed people with their own desires that may not align with ours. Women just literally want to be seen and understood regarding the fact that no matter what we are sexualized. Men can be sexualized too, but they don't walk around feeling like people around them are constantly trying so hard to see through their clothes. I would desperately love to be able to bend over in a grocery store to grab my ragu and not feel anxious that I'm being sexualized (or someone will be bold enough it just touch me- which has happened) while I'm just shopping for groceries. It's so hard to grasp how exhausting it is to constantly feel dehumanized through sexualization at every turn. Men don't want to be sexualized, they want to feel desired and appreciated, and that's the problem. I feel like men don't understand the difference and that's why we are in this current dystopia.
@@sparklyninja12 So, what is the difference? How can one look at a potential approach and think to themselves, "it's okay to do this because it's not sexualizing"? Isn't the power to decide whether or not one is sexualized solely with the person being approached? And how can one act in the absence of that kind of understanding of what someone else will feel about the approach? Because I can assure you, there ARE people who will see any approach as sexualizing, regardless of the intention. Also, on a personal level, I absolutely want to be sexualized, I remember back when I was in grad school I was bending over in the grocery store in much the same way you described and got groped by a mentally disabled young woman. It's one of my most treasured memories.
@@myboatforacar The reason why most men don't have anything against being sexualized is because you arn't shamed for being sexual. Women who have had more than a few partners, hell even more than just one, we're slutshamed and considered low quality, used up etc.
@@ChrissyCat87 I would agree with you if this was 20 years ago but guys nowadays are definitely shamed for being sexual by certain people, though the key difference is that unlike women they’re not shamed for being sexualised. What I mean is that men being sexualised by women or the media, like hollywood actors, don’t get shamed for it, but guys (usually unattractive, socially awkward guys) are definitely shamed for expressing their sexuality or what they find attractive (and sometimes in ways that women aren’t). For example, an ugly man wearing skimpy clothes will be seen almost exclusively as “gross” or “creepy” whereas a woman in the same situation would at least be seen as “empowered” within certain social circles. Same goes for a guy openly discussing his turns ons and turns offs, which is usually seen as “pervy” or demeaning to women who don’t fit his criteria, whereas a woman doing the same thing within a socially-progressive circle may be considered expressive, confident and honest for voicing a preference. I’ll say yeah you’re absolutely right that women get shamed for being sexualised more than men, but in terms of sexuality in general I find there’s more double standards on both sides that no one wants to admit.
@@ChrissyCat87 I think that plays a part, but I also think it's because of the fact the sexualization of women is just so culturally ingrained that most men just don't think of themselves as very sexy, at all. I think a lot of dudes like the idea of being sexualized because whereas women have had to deal with unwanted sexualization for, well just history in general, men just haven't. It's like men are dying of thirst in a desert and women are drowning in the ocean.
When Dr K mentions that a lot of men are decent men the eye roll "if you say so" type expression Anita gave bugs me. I cannot tell if its because of her T or if she was emoting that she doesn't agree but isn't willing to argue the point.
Genuine question: if someone doesn't want more friends, and they just want a partner, how are they supposed to do that? If they make their intentions clear from the start, they are considered to only care about looks and that's bad. But if they get to know someone first and then ask, they are f**kzoning that person, and that's also bad.
You communicate the intend to know them better, you communicate your feelings/intentions after a few actual conversations at least. I mean, if you actually want a partner, not a fuck, you yourself would want to get to know the person first a little bit, wouldn't you?
How well did people know her when she was still worried about her nose? She hated her nose but did anyone who knew her actually hate her nose? Where did the trauma come from if rejection can't be imagined, or from someone you don't know?
While I understand her view of the friend zone, I feel that she's lumping in all "friendzoned" men with total jerks. There are a lot of genuine guys out there who make a friend with a female and develop feelings with said friend unintentionally. They don't want to ruin the friendship or are afraid of being emotionally open so they don't say anything, but their feelings of attraction become stronger and stronger as they grow closer to this friend that isn't attracted back to them. We certainly need to teach our boys to be more open so that they can communicate their feelings easier so they don't put themselves in impossible and unfair situations to their lady friends.
Good luck Anita! May your samskaras be digested and may you have your space of joy with relationships that you deserve. And thank you for talking about these here, hopefully this leads to better understanding amongst everyone. 🙏🏻
What you said about taking big bites of burgers makes no sense. Its basically like saying that exercising does not alter your physical appearance. Taking big bites(especially in early years of life) does change your facial structure just as mouth breathing changes your facial structure. What we do with our bodies matters and affects the development of your bodies.
This conversation was so enlightening the perspective of Sweet Anita made me understand so much in regard of aproaching girls and rejection and how ugly it can feel to them that I go to them whit a whole lot of fear or anxiety because I'm trying to get something out of them (wheter conciously or unconciously) , in this case a date. But the fact that I´m feeling such an intens pressure for some one whom I don´t know a thing about and who doesn´t Know me , KNOW makes no sense to me. There is so much brillance in this conversation but that part just clicked so hard in my mind. It is always an interesting and content packed conversation when Dr. K talks to Annita, It's so cool!
Fairly frustrated by this interview. Not really sure why. I felt like it wasn't much of a conversation and more like a lecture about what it's like to be a woman and how much that sucks.... thats cool but what made these kinds of interviews good was how they dived into the individual person's experiences and thier own perspectives. Instead this was a wierd conversation about other people in the general case (men and women as a group)
@@rulingstone123 wow get triggered much? btw ever think that you might be the problem here? the judgement is just oozing out of your comment. you literally dont know anything about me, but since im presenting as a male, you assume the worst. she said a lot of sweeping statements that apply broadly, and didnt bring much of her own personal perspective into things. meanwhile the other interviews dive deep into the personal details of the person being interviewed. just compare this one to the trump supporter interview and youll see what i mean. Or the therapy gecko one. both were great. the bar to measure against here is: can I get this information from anywhere on the internet? This video here was not really bringing anything that new to the table, just to a new audience. this channel has done better than that in the past.
@@rulingstone123 point out one sentence from my 2 comments that are saying that her experiences do not exist. go on. do it. read what I wrote again, and youll notice I AM ASKING FOR HER TO SHARE HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. SHE DID NOT SHARE ENOUGH. THAT IS THE COMPLAINT.
@YourMajesty you know what the problem is here? You are trying to tell me what I am thinking and what the subtext is behind my comments as if you somehow know my mind better than I do. And you literally have never met me before. It's one comment and all of a sudden you know what's going on. Maybe there's someone in your life that is like this, but don't put that on me. That's the same shit Anita was doing in this video. Talking about what the guys are all thinking about as if she knows. Dr K tried to get her to talk more about that and she just blew past it. But that's a huge fucking problem. You don't know what strangers have going on in their heads. The sooner you accept that the sooner your relationships with other people will improve, and I'm not just talking romantic. That's exactly what was frustrating me about this video as a whole. Don't tell me what men think and how they treat people. Tell me what you think and how people treat you. Its a video about you. And yeah, her comments about rejection and the complete lack of empathy she displayed made me really fucking uncomfortable. The idea that a guy approaching you at a bar only wants your body is another one. I personally have a lot of bullshit going on in my head when it comes to my fear of intimacy. It's not easy getting out of my head to try to get out there and find someone to ultimately have kids with. And the idea of the other person being all judgemental and unempathetic is triggering AS FUCK. Jesus I hope I don't end up with someone like her. But I probably won't since this whole fear of intimacy thing goes too deep anyway.... fuck it why am I wasting time here.
@YourMajesty > don't tell me how men think and what men do to people. Tell me what you think and what men did to you. It's a relatively minor nitpick, but its still what frustrates me with the video. Not saying she didn't experience this stuff. Just pointing out what I didn't like about the vid. Watch the other interviews I mentioned, therapy gecko was a great one. Trump supporter too. The first incel one as well.
A lot of conversations about women and men or women vs men are generalized, on both sides. I agree that that’s not helpful but we need to remember the things Anita specifically has gone through to develop such a deep concrete interpretation of (some) men’s behavior.
As a man that always had to defend having women friends, I really appreciate Anita saying what she said. I even cried a few times when she described how she felt when a friend told her that their friendship was a waste of time. Also, men, we need to get better at complimenting each other
I wanna put in a word for the manipulative friendzone guys.
I've often hit it off with a girl, taken my shot and been rejected, then denied her request to remain friends.
The key misunderstanding here is that this is not a ploy to gain anything from her. The girls I end up falling for are awesome people who I'd love to be friends with. However, I can't, for my own mental health. I can't see this person and vibe with them and constantly think, I want more from them. This is not a sexual desire (tho it can be too), it's a deeply romantic one. It's not that I pretended to be your friend to get to have sex. The friendship was genuine, feelings arose, and now I need more and can't continue like this. There is no ultrerior motive, this is just the sad facts.
Edit: This comment keeps spawning a lot of engagement and interesting conversations, so I thought I'd give an update.
So first off, I didn't mention that I HAVE reconnected with some of my former crushes, some of who are in relationships, and we have very nice and meaningful friendships. It just takes a lot of time to process these feelings and get rid of them.
Second, with my most recent crush, I actually tried precisely what Dr K recommended. After a few weeks of meeting in a group environment, I noticed feelings arousing. I spoke to her about it and she was very relived and glad to have it in the open, but shot me down and said she hoped we can continue as friends. I said I'm actually cool with that, thinking I'll stick it out, either until she develops feelings or until I get interested in someone else. Whether we end up as friends or partners, I'll be fine with both.
Well, that failed miserably. I was keeping up my end of the bargain, treating her like any other friend and still going on dates with other women. However, the friendship was still very weird, because she kept holding me at arm's length, reaching out on her own but shutting me down every time I offered to hang out. I know that's not what she intended, but I felt like a sort of toy that you can play with whenever you want, but it itself doesn't get any say. She liked me enough to spend time with me on her own terms, but still had no trust that I knew to respect her boundaries and wouldn't make an advance if I got the right opportunity. Sorry, that's not a real friendship and I don't need this. The whole experience was ultimately very draining and not worth it, but if anyone thinks I did something wrong here, I'm curious to know.
I think that this statement is highly underrated. I had a very close male friend, we started dating, it wasn't really working for him, he wanted to go back to being friends and I could not do it. I did not think there was any way I could be a part of his life now and not be embroiled in jealousy, neediness and insecurity, and begin to behave like a total psycho. so the friendship ended immediately irrepairably forever the day we decided to date.
It is unkind and unempathetic to expect that men who are generally starved of love and affection, will never develop romantic feelings for a female who provides them with that. Ironically in my case it was me, the woman, who got friendzoned, but the truth is that he confused the feelings of famial love with romantic love because he barely ever experienced familial love in his life at all. So he wanted to date me until he realised that what he really wished was that I was his mom or older sister. I think the common answer here is actually the difficult to accept reality that men in general are extremely emotionally damaged from a world that does not care about their feelings. The little girl who falls off her bike and scrapes her knee is rushed on by adults asking if she is ok and pampering her with hugs and kisses ... The little boy in the exact same situation is ignored by most adults, and one will come up to him and tell him its not so bad, its only a little scrape and big boys don't cry, so dust yourself off and get back on your bike.
All of this pain on both sides of the gender spectrum can be simply boiled down to multigenerational male trauma, which is ALL of our responsibility to heal, women raise men too, not just fathers, statistically more men are raised by women. This means that mothers raise boys to be devoid of self-love. Women play a role in creating the unempathetic misogynists, this needs to change.
@mikacakes Thanks, that was really nice to hear.
I do want to add that women shouldn't be thinking all men who develop crushes in a friendhip are just starved for affection (not saying you do). I've felt deeply connected to and cared by women I have platonic relationships with. What you said might read to some women who don't want guys' attention that they can't show them this kind of caring. And truth is, it definitely works, and it's not their responsibility. But the fewer women take those bullets, the more men are isolated from a healthy gender dynamic. And if you're capable of setting boundaries, VERY few guys will not respect them
I feel like the key phrase on this topic in the interview is „Is there going to be something more or am I wasting my time?“ at 45:42. She is not talking about a situation where people developed a genuine friendship and one of them caught feelings and ended the friendship because of that hurts, which is a completely valid situation.
“Am I wasting my time?“ implies „The only reason I approached you is because I wanted a relationship/sex, I don’t care about you as a person.“ It implies premeditation as in he started the friendship with that goal in mind, it implies that the only value that person sees in spending time with her is to get in her pants. Which is quite manipulative and malicious as it means that every nice experience and deep talk with that person was an act. It’s not something you would say if you genuinely cared about the other person.
Again I’m not trying to discredit your feelings here. Thats a shitty situation you found yourself in and I feel you, but I think you and Anita are talking about different situations.
@@mailysablubb9207 I 100% agree if the guy said it and meant it that way. That's an unambiguously shitty thing to say. But she uses this case as a representative for her rejection of dudes, which I just don't think it is.
This has completely nailed it on the head. I couldn't figure out what was deeply bothering me when Anita was talking about 'the friendzone' and it is exactly this
I went to a gender segregated school and a family of all women. I'm in my 40s now and realizing the subtle ways I never learned to see men as people. We were taught to see men, instead as just provider-aggressor-objects to seek out to fill some missing puzzle piece in a fantasy vision sold to us. It's fascinating to think about all the ways the segregation causes this on either side.
This reminds me of scenes in certain books and television shows (and even in real life!) where an older woman will instruct a younger one about how to "deal with" men. About how to manipulate him and make him think that he's doing what he wants but he's really following her. But always do it carefully because the man is a volatile entity who may erupt and then all is lost if that happens.
I know that a lot of these scenes take place in settings where women had little to no rights (thus why the characters had to resort to manipulation and subterfuge) but it always struck me as so incredibly toxic, the same way red pill/Tate instructions are.
I do think men and women need a deeper understanding of each other because without that our human instinct to see anything different than us as an enemy will ravage our relationships.
Interesting, as a guy I often don't take this into account or consideration, thank you for sharing
If you don't mind could you give an example of those ways you were taught?
That's how men are often boiled down to. Men are either something to be feared or used.
Tate is vilified (not yhat he should't be) for telling men "how women wörk and how to deal with them". Steve Harvey gets a talkshow on National tv.
As a lesbian, asking girls out made me respect men. That shit is SCARY.
🤝
its straight up , wild. and brutal.
They can really be brutal sometimes. I saw a girl vibing to some Kesha and I tapped her on the shoulder and smiled. Asking if she was liking the music. She looked at me and glared, then gave me a snobby 'No'. Not in the way that she was responding to my question. But in that she was rejecting me as a whole. Shame, I like some Kesha, and her interest in it is what made me want to talk to her.
@@TheReapergod36 the thought of “rejecting me as a whole” is harmful mindset and often untrue. From what I can tell you approached a stranger and tried to initiate a conversation. That’s not a bad thing at all and the fact you left her alone when you realized she wasn’t interested is great. You respected her boundaries. But her rejecting conversation with you is not rejecting you as a person. She doesn’t know you, she doesn’t know your personality, interests, flaws, dreams, etc. She didn’t reject you but a random stranger. It is very likely that she doesn’t dislike you personally but rather she just didn’t want to interact with anyone at the moment. It is likely if any other stranger interacted at with her at the time she would have given the same response. There are so many reasons why people don’t want to talk to another person all the time and you have no reason to think that who you are as a person is the reason why you were rejected. Don’t let these small things drag you down. Everyone is different and life is unpredictable. Keep doing your best in the world and don’t let your own assumptions bring you down. Your worst critic is yourself and don’t let you get yourself down.
I'm bi and I don't have problems with girls, but I usually know them first. I can imagine some women are disrespectful
When you are rejected by all strangers, every rejection becomes an affirmation on all your internalized negative feelings
underrated comment
I'd feel better if I got rejected by a close friend-- at least they were spending time with me for other reasons. But a stranger, who barely knows you and won't give you the benefit of the doubt, or even the time of day? A lot harder to externalize.
It's sad but true. I think this is super obvious for lots of things to. Just think of it from finding a job.
There’s so many dr k interviews with people who share this mindset. If literally every woman rejects you there’s obviously things you need to change that you’re oblivious to. The actions of others don’t reinforce our self image, we use the actions of others to justify the self image we already have, or want.
But strangers are obviously more likely to reject you than someone you know. Put yourself in their shoes. Some rando comes up to you and hits on you, possibly when you’re busy or preoccupied. More importantly, you know nothing about them. You don’t know what their motives are, if they’re a good person, or even if they have a personality compatible with yours. Why would you automatically say yes to them? Even if they’re really attractive. If a very attractive woman that I didn’t know came up to me and started flirting, I’d probably think she was either trying to sell me something or I was being pranked. Not because I don’t think I’m good enough for her, but because that behaviour is out of the norm.
I think the reason men feel rejected when asking out a girl has nothing to do with actual rejection but is more to do with the vulnerability that comes with admitting you like someone in a potentially platonic or romantic way. I think that's what a lot of the other comments want Anita to understand.
Edit: Coming from a girl who asked her boyfriend out and found it bloody scary.
That's actually really interesting! Goes back to the point they talked about earlier, where being emotional vulnerability is more difficult for most men.
@@evelinepieternella8088 Yes exactly - I dont usually comment but felt I wanted to in this instance
As a guy I can confirm this is very true
Its completely different for men. Your worth isn't being evaluated because you are considered to have it intrinsic.
@@ethosterros9430 I wouldn't necessarily say that. I think both men and women are told their worth isn't intrinsic, but they're linked to different things. Stereotypically, woman's worth is linked to beauty and desirability while man's worth is linked to power and ability to provide. Both of which can get really toxic to people's well being and self-confidence.
Here’s my theory on the rejection problem. Because men get taught a lot less about feelings and communication they actually end up being a lot more sensitive to these types of things, so if a man goes up to a woman in the supermarket and he gets rejected, it’s taken extremely personally and is a massive hit on their self-worth. The first thoughts in his head in that situation won’t be “She doesn’t know me so it doesn’t matter”, it’s “I’m not strong/attractive enough, I am bad at speaking, my social anxiety is getting in the way” etc.
That’s a valid theory,also the pressure that we get having to make 90% of the moves and we aren’t even taught social cues that woman do for us to know our chances are 0.Then you start to believe there’s a chance even the smallest of chances because she never said no.
I think another factor is that women are already validated enough. Women can get offended if they get rejected like men can, but in a lot of cases they'll probably have a feeling of self worth. Men don't have that self worth or constant praise so it's easier for us to take it on a more personal level as a lot of us don't really have much to fall back on.
@@frishter totally in line with what you said, a compliment for a man is something he's gonna cherish for his entire life for most of us xD So I guess the self worth as a man is way more difficult to gain on a daily basis
@@frishter I disagree, not just you but the whole premise. Okay, not the whole, but half of it I agree, that men are left without tools and more vulnerable in these situations, but than if a relationships ensues, women are more open to hits to their self worth. The fear of not being abel to “keep a man” is the same as for a man not being able to “get a woman”.
@@olympiaelda1121 One is cleary harder though lol. Just like not being able to find good food or keep good food rather than find any food at all.
Same for relationships, which are almost a base need like food as well. Not having them at all is significantly worse.
To add onto the question of, "How can you get rejected if they don't even know you?" You have to take into account how some people make entire character assumptions about you, way before you're even in talking distance.
Hell, back in grade school people assumed I was a school shooter simply because I was a dude who didn't talk much and wore a hoodie. It's not until they knew me that they realized all of their assumptions were baseless.
Now imagine if you want to go make friends with someone or ask them out, and before they've even heard you speak, they label you as a school shooter. You could perhaps see how you're already rejected before even being known.
Both men and women make assumptions very fast. There's even research that it only takes a few seconds for people to decide. Honestly I think only very beautiful people haven't experienced this happening to them and don't understand, because of the halo effect they have an advantage. But what people said about you sounds awful and painful. As an awkward introvert, people sometimes tell me things like "wow when I first saw you I thought you were very arrogant but you are chill". It makes me self-conscious that people I've never talked to, or only talked for a few minutes, already thought so negatively on me. Doesn't help with social anxiety lol.
I think you are somewhat projecting your assumptions onto other people here, I don’t think everybody sees someone who is quiet in a hoodie and immediately thinks ‘school shooter’. Outside of that, if this really is happening/ it upset/s you, you can try a sweater, blazer, cardigan, etc or socialising a little more.
To add even further to the "How can you get rejected if they don't even know you?", I think at least part of it is people realize how crucial the first impression is to someone creating an opinion of them. Where if you have given a shaky first impression it becomes difficult to overcome, and people with low self confidence can assume they will give a very poor first impression.
that's one nasty assumption to make... I imagine that really messes with your head, because to some degree it is provoking and poking you to do exactly that, even when you never even thought about it
@@MrHastygamer Yea, the projection was a little bit extreme haha. But it was just an anecdotal example of how people may label others as someone to avoid, for their own safety. Whether its school shooter, an aggressive creep or just a rude obnoxious person.
On the topic of getting rejected by strangers, I think a lot of men have the idea that women will say yes to a man who is a complete stranger if he has the looks, height or status she desires. So if a strange woman rejects him, in his mind what she's saying is "you're too ugly, short and low value for me".
You may be right. Because the reality is far from that. I'm a very average, if not kind of ugly woman, and even if the most handsome man in the world came up to me as a stranger and asked me out I wouldn't instantly say ''yes'' lol. He could be a serial killer or a horrible person.We could have absolutely nothing in common etc.
@@mercedesb2299 Well yeah but then why women dont like male friends with romantic intentions?
@@mercedesb2299 You are using false dichotomy. Getting with a woman is not either immediate hookup or worming your way to relationship via friendship, there are other ways.
A woman is much more likely to give her phone number or agree to a date if a guy is handsome and powerful. Would you disagree with this?
@Straga_Severa A man is much more likely to go out with a woman if she is in her twenties and pretty. Would you agree with that?
thats a false equivalence because the average man agrees to a date on much less standards. @@hdshjs
In reference to men being afraid of rejection, as someone with a relatively healthy emotional vocabulary, and who has been very scared of rejection, it's definitely not always about the "No". The "No" hurts, sure, but a lot of the fear is the what ifs around it. If it's a friend, what if it destroys the friendship? If it's someone you know through others, how will that hurt your relationship with them?
It should be easy. "Hey, I like you." "Aight, cool. I don't, not like that." "Ok. Not the response I wanted but that's fine. Wanna play some mario kart?" but there's so much AROUND that that it's a lot of feedback and noise overriding that simple process.
In my experience, fear almost always stems from a want to avoid losing something. Losing the friend. Losing the fantasy you've built up in your head. Losing your social group that you've built up. Or, in the case of fear of rejection approaching someone in a bar or whatever, sure people want to get their way, but it's also the potential reactions. Do they make a scene? Logically, no they won't but they MIGHT. Do other people around give you shit? Do your friends think less of you?
Yeah, I get that. There's all the awkward situation around it, things can't be unspoken.
I worry about, if I do know them they might just pretend they're interested for easy sex until they meet someone they actually have feelings for.
I think the part about losing the fantasy you've built up in your head is the biggest contender. Like Anita said, rejection from someone who doesn't even know you shouldn't really feel bad, since there's nothing invested to lose besides time taken during a quick conversation.
It's the total fabrication of what COULD come after that conversation that I feel many men are afraid to lose. Despite not having any solid reason for things to progress beyond a first meeting, it will still feel like you lost a possible future with this person. When in reality that person never intended to jump into a relationship with you, they weren't even thinking about you that way.
It's the disconnect between what men think they can gain from asking a girl if they want to date them, and what women actually consider a romantic encounter.
What you have to understand is that what you see as a potential romantic relationship she sees as platonic friendship, and once you reveal your true intentions, she will realise that you are in a way being deceitful and never saw it as platonic friendship.
@@NotoriousBBB well, except for if the crush or the feelings have been built up over time, which is pretty common aswell
I'd argue the 'losing the friendship' part for me is the most relatable and scary part. I've had crushes in the past, but only on friends I've known for at least a year, I don't really tend to fall in love with someone unless I know them well on an emotional level and that takes time naturally.
Issue is, once you get to that level of trust and friendship, the 'risk' of confessing is way higher because you invested so much in the friendship, if the feelings aren't reciprocated you might just lose it all, and that's infinitely worse than the simple 'no'.
Not saying this is anyone's fault and I have no idea how to fix it if it's even fixable, but that's what my personal fear of rejection boils down to.
I grew up in a household that was mostly female dominated. I had to put up with a lot of blame for being male because of the shortcomings of my father. I basically had do be the surrogate father figure for my three younger sisters afther my parents divorced when I was 9 years old. Being the only outlet for my mother's dissappointment in men, I took the brunt of demeaning comments from her. I was basically raised with the assumption that I was not fit to be with a girl/ woman ever, because I was a male and male equals bad - a disaster waiting to happen. This was mostly achieved through comparing me to my father (even though I don't share those bad traits with him) after hearing for years what kind of bad person my father was. My own feelings ended up being neglected, since showing feelings or lashing out was considered to be a proof, that I would be failing and endig up like my father. I had my first girlfriend with 29 - including my first kiss. Up until then I just believed, that relationships are a thing that others do, something that was never meant for me. I went through that "friendzone" bullsh*t during my teenage years, something that reinforced the notion that I was not worthy. I am off my third relationship for a year now and I still tense up when I meet a woman I consider a "possible match", even if it is CLEAR that she is not available. I think - in my case - that is because I grew up with the belief that women are above me. That I, as a man, have to be pleasant an perfect and flawless. And once I am confronted with the slightest possibility that I could be with that woman I get anxious. Because I KNOW I am going to fail. For many years, I was terrified of being rejected. This has somewhat shifted from fear towards resignation. I AM going to be rejected no matter what, since I am inadequate. I know intellectually that this is not true but I still can't shake this feeling.
I hope you’re good now mate but a lot of times I’ve noticed that most people have problems in life because of either an absent father or toxic mother or both.
I'm sorry you had to go through that stuff, dude. I can't tell you how you feel, but I do hope you do take into thought that not everyone in this world has to be perfect because we all screw up, even the ones we deem to be "perfect", but we hardly know what others go through, yet hope that we can be the ones that can comfort them. All I can say is, don't let stuff pressure you from the past, but learn to why you can be the better person now and so forth. As long as you're still breathing, you can still try. Take care of yourself.
My mom does that to me too: I can’t get mad or else I get compared to my dad, who is practically estranged from me now, and whom I still have some trauma from.
damn dude i wish i could hug you
I was raised by a mum with BPD and this also demolished my relationship with women as an adult
Please bring back interview style videos like this more often again!! I miss when you use to do these consistently! They're always great convos!!💚
Nah, IMO the Reddit post one is still the best since it helps Dr K helps average people which is majority of his demographic. Sure streams like this does help too to some extent but they definitely shouldn’t be the norm
more often u mean?
Your profile picture tho 😎
100% on this. I learn most from a conversation than I do a lecture. I’ve mostly stopped watching all non interview/conversation videos.
As long as they're not all famous streamers.
I think what Dr K was trying to piece together towards the end there was: to men, the door to a relationship with a woman they've never met is always open initially, and women saying that the door is closed is the rejection. To women, the door is initially closed, and therefore they can only reject guys if they have let him through the door first!
Exactly.
not really true not everyone thinks the way anita does about it, a lot of women will judge and reject you based on superficial factors like height or how expensive your clothes are or how handsome you are or whatever else based on how you appear during that short interaction. and it will be an intentional rejection and they will also view it that way. which is a far less mature way to look at it.
@@thespanishinquisition7560 and you're basing your opinion on what exactly? Those are just statemenrs that men mindlessly repeat without any substance
@@thespanishinquisition7560 So if you meet a woman like that you can be glad she rejected you right? Because why would you want to date her? If you only wanted to date her based off of looks.. you're not any better than her...
Why do men think the door is open though? Assuming the man is not just interested in a one-night-stand and hitting on her at a bar or something.
As a woman, i feel like she assumes a LOT of things about these specific kinds of men...
I liked the conversation in the beginning because she was explaining how these revenge porn and deep fakes can feel for the victim, but at the end i feel like she gets angry at men who cannot communicate like "a normal person" and therefore asks for advice and men who gets bitchy about being friend zoned and what not. (I do agree, there is no "zone" to be put in, you start out a friend and it either evolves or stays as is. You can start out as a romantic option but you will be well aware and in this case you'd probably not go "down" to being a friend if it doesn't work out afterwards)
I do think the constructive conversation turned sour there as she could not understand the "other side" and how hard it can be for both men and women to talk to the opposite sex regardless of romantic feelings or not.
The feelings of rejections in seemingly small conversations that SHOULD NOT matter, but for these people DO MATTER, is a huge problem that many people i know born in the 90'ies have or do struggle with.. I struggled talking to any guys that didn't approach me and start the conversation, even in school projects i struggled talking to the boys in the group, not because of romantic opportunities, but because i was afraid of rejection, being told to do my part of the project alone because i had nothing in common with them.. And they where all very nice people!
I have adult male friends today that struggle to get a partner because they don't know how to interact with females. They don't have many hobbies and therefore do not meet women nor have anything in common with the girls they meet.. It can happen the other way around too, i have a couple of female friends, that are or where in relationships with a guy where they had nothing in common with, it often end too because its hard to find something to do together if you cannot dig into the other persons hobbies.
I hope you guys and gals out there, who feel worthless and hopeless knows that you are good enough! You are worth being with, your hobbies are fun! You "just" need to find someone who shares the hobby or want to listen in or even try it out because they like YOU for YOU, and its not easy, i know, but get out there, have fun, enjoy life, do your hobbies, along the way you might find that special someone
most guys dont struggle they just dont want , they just struggle to find sex , partner and sex is different for men
@@justicethedoggo3648
Your assumption is exactly the type of thing Gwenx is talking about I think.
Many guys (mostly young ones) struggle with basic communication with women regardless if sex is even a thing they want with that specific woman.
The struggle to find a partner and the struggle to find sex is the same one and the sources of the problem are often the same - silly archaic social expectations, poor education in the subject etc.
It’s very hard to CBT your way through learned experiences and a vast majority of women I know share these same experiences. In the beginning when she said it was gaslighting for people to act like they don’t get it …. Yeah
I do think some of these men, who struggle, really just are looking for sex and not a relationship because they maybe don't know what relationships are about?
I hear my friends craving a relationship, but whenever the talk lands on woman and their needs, they back out and talk shit about how its "needy" for the woman to wanna sit and bench idk, sex and the city, with their partner or whatever the topic is. None of these guys are willing to put in the effort, to sacrifice, or to do the things needed of them.. They just want sex with a pretty girl.
Now most of those i know that wants a relationship, actually do find them self's in relationships, it just doesn't hold because they maybe ignore some red flags or their partner isn't willing to put in the work, or they just weren't super compatible to begin with. These guys know what a relationship takes, and that you have to adapt, change, and give up some things, to be in a balanced relationship that isn't just sex :)
Most girls have experienced something super uncomfortable from some guy out there. The entitlement or the friend zoning is the most annoying as we are all individuals, we owe nothing to nobody no matter what we do. You flirted with a girl at the bar, and later felt she was not your type? You don't "owe" her to go home and bang her, just because you where flirty. You don't owe her, to explain next morning over text, why you left early. You can have a change of heart, change your believes, change your opinion, and that should be okay.
I really do hope these video's Dr.K makes helps some guys and gals out there, struggling to understand and help us all do, and be better
A woman with sense, rare these days
You know, I sat and listened to the best of my ability.
The part that resonated with me was not being able to differentiate signals with friendly interactions.
I have experienced this more times than I'd care to admit.
I by default assume if someone wants to be around me that they're doing so because they want to be friends. I never assume sexual intent.
I've missed. So. Many. Signals. Where women have retro actively asked me why I never made a move.
I've been invited to stay the night at female friends houses. Not understanding the implication of what they mean when staying the night. Slept on couches when a bed has been offered. Stepped out of rooms when someone has started to change in front of me. And brushed off invitations of dates as hang outs with the homies.
I just assumed it was cause they were comfortable around me - and knew I wouldn't do anything that the offers were being made - NOT - that they were trying to drop a hint.
Maybe you're neurodivergent?
@@EyeOfTheTiger777 nope.
I mean unless ADHD counts. I do have a diagnosis of that.
I'd say it's probably more so to protect my peace of mind. It's safer and less emotionally turbulent to assume that someone's actions are what they are at face value.
Clear direct communication about intent is what differentiated the people that ended up being my partners - and the people who I end up missing signals. I do not like ambiguity I never have.
Alot of guys have this problem, better late than never. /shrug now that you know don't fuck it up next time :D
@@trulydumb506 ADHD does generally count as being neuro divergent!
I hope that you don't let yourself feel too bad about any of those situations. All I know is that if they weren't able to communicate clearly and directly what they were interested in, I don't know how emotionally available they'd be in general. (I don't want to make snap judgments about these people's character, I'm just working with the information you've given)
It seems to me like you're prioritizing being a good, kind, and respectful person above all else and you should feel good about that. Despite your username...I think you were the Truly Smart one in these situations :)
As a woman, I can agree with a lot of what she has said. HOWEVER, I also feel that she has clutched into her belief and her specific experience that she has now done the same thing. It seems that she cannot see a man as anything more than someone who wants her, or some other woman.
I would also like to know, how she approaches someone that she’s attracted to, and would like to ask out. Because all people have transactional experiences with others. In fact, any person who has been in a committed, live-in relationship has made some transactions with their partner.
At some quick google searching looking at the trending dramas around Anita, she is very forward and upfront with people she is interested in. If she is wanting to, and willing to hang out and be a friend with a person, she is. She is extremely supportove and caring of her friends, she has friends of all genders and positions in life and grew up with a very hard upbringing and has had more problems than most people do because of her condition, so you may not understand the difficulties she is going through in addition to "just being a woman" because she has a lot of ticks and stuff she cannot control that are actively making her life more difficult especially with the problems she highlights. She doesn't see men as "only people wanting her," she is scared that they will decide they want her and not take no for an answer no matter how long they've supposedly been platonic friends, which is VERY different
From what I've seen as a long time fan of sweet anita is that she troughout her life has had men and even woman fuck zone her to such a dispreportional degree compared to the avarage woman. That it's difficult to suspect anything else from men.
I also know that she has extremely sparingly had a maybe handful of men not do that too her.
Tho the exact details I'm unaware off and I'm quoting from memory.
It'd be good to know that non all men are trying to fuck zone you.
But in her specific case it's not strange or unfair for her to think that.
@@SeanHoltzman not “just a woman.” Quite a bit more, dealing with chronic illness, and several conditions of my own. In fact, the people who actually know me and my life story, feel it is a miracle I’m still on this earth. I listened to the entire interview, she is always the one who approaches and asks for a date, and will never accept a date from anyone who asks her out. This is her prerogative, but I would say that absolutely means that she feels any man who asks her out just wants to fuck her. That’s it, never giving a second thought to perhaps he thought she was a cool chick, or he liked her fashion sense, or perhaps she looked like an old friend and therefore immediately made the man feel at ease; there are many reasons an individual may ask a person out. To me, it seems she has made all of her decisions about men, before ever giving them a chance. But that’s just me.
Bingo. She's doing the exact thing to men that men have done to her. Complete lack of understanding/empathy towards what they go through and where they're coming from. Hopefully more open discussions with ppl from both sides can be had, instead of silos.
@@slow-adhesiveness-4933 I'm not your alpha male, I'm not a movie star, I'm far from smooth, I suffer from crippling self doubt etc etc. And yet, really frickin hot women are happy when I approach them and quite often that leads somewhere. They're totally bored with getting approached by narcissists. Stop theorising to justify your fears. Stop imagining you know what is going on in another person's mind because you've deduced the rules. It makes you look silly.
I love it how Dr. K take this as a learning experience for himself as well to better connect and understand people
@@vidzorko4492 You can learn from close- or narrowminded people still. She has her views and opinions and they are valid. I disagree with alot of the things she says and thats totally fine.
I liked her visualization of rejection though and how different it is for men and women because of how we approach each other. It actually makes alot of sense to explain it that way.
Getting rejected based upon a perceived lack of initial interest is still rejection. That’s how dating apps work. I think it should still be understood as something that can be entirely harmless. Hell, this has fueled the creation of art.
sure, but that rejection should only be as surface level as your relationship with the person. if you just saw someone for the first time, was sexually attracted and then got rejected, it’s not nearly on the same level as being rejected by a mother, friend or girlfriend
@@meghanohalloran729you don’t understand rejection in dating for men. Men are expected to be the pursuer in dating which is hard and requires a lot of motivation and investment since especially the men struggling with dating aren’t as socially adept and charismatic.
Society values men and men value themselves on their ability to do well with women. You have heard all of this before.
None of what I said would matter if the man in question had a great social circle and tons more opportunity for women to fall back on, rejection doesn’t hurt when you have other options, but we are in a loneliness epidemic with a record amount of single people so men don’t have that stuff
@@meghanohalloran729 true but when it's often and that is usually the case for men. It can prove to be really damaging and hurtful. You would think constant exposure to rejection would make men neutral. But that isn't the case at all. Just like how constant abuse doesn't fix the issue.
@@meghanohalloran729 wrong.
@@meghanohalloran729 It does not have to be that kind of rejection to hurt a lot though. It causes you to relive every other rejection you've had, many of which are not from strangers but from people who genuinely knew you and were just not interested. The reason for this is that guys are rejected CONSTANTLY, especially in dating where they must approach first.
Even just walking down the street, you are rejected as a guy. People move to the other side of the street. People put as much space between you and them as possible. There is no way to convince your primate brain that this is not complete and utter social rejection, even if these people do not know you. They treat you like a wild animal, on the off chance that you are one of the very few that deserve to be treated that way (which is fair btw, I'm just saying you have no context for how often men are rejected).
There have been pieces written by trans men that put this into perspective as well.
Anita generalizes men the EXACT same way some red pill groups generalize women. This is the toxicity that makes dating miserable for everyone. We need to address both sides, that's what Dr. K does well.
Good point
Yep, this jumped out to me immensely in this conversation. She's doing the exact things men/people have done to her; a complete lack of understanding of the other person/where they're coming from/empathy for their suffering and position. Hopefully HG can provide a more open and safe environment to share perspectives, because on the public domain, 90%+ of the public conversation is around bolstering women and telling men they are priviledged, or at least thats how it feels like. That'll lead to nowhere but resentment on both sides and clowns like Andrew Tate getting huge following simply for acknowledging that men suffer. Not good.
She says generalizations the whole video but then when she talks about rejection, what most people generally do doesn’t matter, only how she personally gives and experiences rejection matter
@@ZapatosVibes Exactly, influential people like her make terrible generalizations and it causes groups of people to be paranoid and scared of another group of people. This is why society is where it's at today
@@varsa507 but women have a right to be scared of men, because men are disproportionally a danger to women, most men are not a threat but some are (some women to but in a way smaller scale), how is someone supposed to know if a certain man is going to be a danger or not, you can’t blame them for being cautious
taking rejection personally: it's easy to start to take rejection personally when you say "hi" to a girl and their response is "ew, gross".
That's awful 😢
@@lillierose5304 had a friend confess to his female friend. Her compassionate answer was, literally, "men are such scum, why did you destroy our friendship?" and then leaving the scene.
Such a female thing to do, the entire universe to revolve around her.
@@michajastrzebski4383 sounds like she was an immature very mean person.
And now, to find out that people like Anita are couching their response in assumptions about a person without even knowing them.
@@michajastrzebski4383
sUcH a fEmAlE tHiNg tO dO..
OBvIoUsly ALL women are like that and men are ALL literal Angels who only use women who dEsErVe iT... AM I RIGHT FELLAS? 🧔♀️🔥💯💪
21:20 I absolutely LOVE this point by Anita. The idea that men are undersexualized and women are oversexualized. And then that men and women hear about each other's experiences (men never getting the attention they want and women getting all of the attention they DON'T want) and can't empathize with each other, I love this so much.
I've had this thought kicking around in my head for a long time that each sex has what the other sex wants. Men want attention and women want to be left alone.
I've seen arguments between children that were resolved with empathy. Literally.
It can't be one sided, though. It can't be women empathizing with men's frustration, and men saying, "finally you get it! Will you go out with me now??"
It requires men to understand the frustrations women have - and the dangers men and sex pose to women.
And I commend Dr. K for these shows, because this is exactly what he's trying to do.
You think women don’t like attention?
@@574882 Most people like attention. It's *type* of the attention women get that they don't want. Anonymous attention from people they don't know is fine, especially if they're getting paid, but the sexual advances from men online and in person who they don't find attractive is the attention they don't like.
@@574882 women don't like _unwanted_ attention.
I also think men try to understand women through _projection_ but women's experience in the world is different from men's. (For instance, men rarely get unwanted attention. More specifically, men don't fear violence from women, like women do from men.)
@@574882all humans like attention of some sort, even since babyhood, women just dont like the "bad touch" vibes, i like to describe the bad touch vibes as drawing poop emojis on someone's whole body while they are asleep with permanent marker, so that when they wake up they have to waste days washing it off, such frustration, such insult!
I think im in the minority when i say i really appreciate her unfiltered view of how she sees friendzoning. The fact that she made me feel uncomfortable and frustrated by her explanation only helped me get a broader perspective that everyones views on the world differ greatly and that despite my biases i was somehow able to see it from her perspective while also dissagreeing heavily. Especially as a guy, I could not relate to a single one of her feelings.
Can you please expand on that? Why did it make you frustrated?
@@nadinesereda-sass158 oh yeah sure, while i dont relate to that guy in in said situation i know a few who have been in those situations. weather it be rejection or freindzoning. and i think there is just a nuance that is tough for each side to understand eachother's intentions and feelings in that situation. and bridging the two sides together may be close to impossible on a widespread scale, i think at least. Im not saying her feelings are wrong but her assumption about the guy in that situation isn't totally aligned with how they actually feel.
Yeah, it's called "being wrong". Another way in which women are just like men: they can be wrong, too. 🤣
i also appreaciated her takes as well as thought of them as partially to extreme. im not a man so can find reesoance and validation in many things she says while i have to acknoledge that she is misssing some pieces of the puzzle. She really brilliantly summarizes the signals someone sends when they eg are afraid of the firendzone. while there might be a valid reason for that kind of concern just accepting the mere concept of it into your world view sends signals of dehumanization and alienation that one would only want to respond to by anger. And anger and not even being shown your not seen fully as a person really is gonna make it hard to want to even see the other side. I wish we could just abandon those weird terms and constructs and look at cases more individually
@@cube22111 She annoys me as hell, I'm not gonna watch that full interview. I think she has a very skewed viewpoint. She sees all men as rapists, and then disregards the whole data of unhappy women who hit the walll, still haven't found a relationship and no longer can. We have the data! And the studies. Women dating options peak at 20 and tank at 40, men dating options is the exact opposite, they peak at 40. It would be fine if she said she doesn't want this and that personally, but when she blames society for trying to teach her these facts, because these impair her freedom... When she's 40, she's gonna blame society again and say, men are all perverts because they want a young, fertile woman.
Not only that, when women get pregnant before 30, they have way less risks of everything, and I would guess (though I'm not a woman) that they're not keen on having a c-section.
I bet that she's going into clubs to drink, sexy dressed, maybe with makeup, and then is surprised that the drunks are approaching her, and from there she deducts that all men are like that. It's not like she gets approached on the street at daylight.
This got me thinking...
When she said that it's not normal to see a person and immediately get scared of rejection when thinking about talking to them... I thought about how it feels when you see an potential client, or a potential business partner.
You get scared of rejection in the same manner because that person has something you want, and you're afraid that if you fail to convince them, then you'll have lost any future chance of getting what you want from that specific person.
And since every woman is a different mostly unique package, then the anxiety gets even higher, because you'll have lost any chance to "get" that specifically unique "product or service". Since no one can offer exactly the same.
I mean, it's the same feeling.
And it's scary, because you're so focused on what you want... that you don't care at all about what the other person wants.
You're not thinking about how you can serve that client or enrich that woman's personal life experience. You're wholly focused on "how can I extract what I want out of this person", and that is frankly a shitty way to do business or approach relationships.
I mean, we all despise that salesman-kind of attitude that's just trying to manipulate you into giving them your money, to manipulate you into saying "yes".
And I imagine, for many women it's exactly like that.
That is a veeeery good description. Now the horrible misconception here is, not your mistake LOL. The misconception is part of what is actually happening in these exact scenarios!!
There is a false assumtion going on with the "sales person" (and sometimes also the "client" towards the "company"): In which they are convinced, that the difference in "deals" equals difference in happiness. And that is a terrible lie we were taught!!!!!
Turns out, that missing out on deals is not a big problem. ESPECIALLY when your main income isn't (and never should!!!) relying on the success of these deals to start with, but rather your regular "prouct sales" (e.g. exchanges taking place during: self-care, friends, family, work relationships, platonic fun social interactions with strangers).
As it turns out, you can be missing out on many "unique deals" and not lose much at all. On the contrary, you can gain. Every time you get scared of the loss, you can learn how to process loss. NOT to be numb to loss, but to be OK sitting with the feeling of loss!!!!! And then you stop obsessing over lost deals. You can offer deals and see of there's interest. And when there isn't, then you sit with loss and appreciate the avoidance of getting stuck with an unwilling client!!! It gets easier and easier to truly look at your clients and what both of you need to be satisfied with whatever business echange you may have!
Losses are scary, because you are tying your worth and success to the client, when they have 1000 reasons to have different needs than you! Losses are scary, because you believe that you must bend to serve clients. When in reality, the whole point is: The business offers what it sees clients need AND is within the businsses means and interest. And clients choose to come in and choose to express what else they may need. And from there, talks are held, which needs can be covered between these parties and which need to be supplied by external parties. So, it actually doesn't even matter if the clients and their deals are different! X'DDDD You just cover what you can, and many different parts will always be supplied by other parties!
The consistant part is you, the sales person and your offer. What business goes and overthrows itself, each time a client comes into the shop, takes a round and leaves without buying anything? :'D And if the shop shuts down cause noone buys, does the sales person cease to work??? Or live??? Or do they check on themselves and see what next step they can take?
This is great! First half I was pissed at you like in "we are not products!" way. But somehow I continued reading and was like "oh.. it's just model and a very good one". So, thanks for good model and you also seem to have good writing skills, so my compliments there too:)
@@KxNOxUTA, I love that you took my analogy and ran with it.
I completely agree. Relying on a single potential client to make up the whole worth of your business is a terrible strategy indeed.
And it is also true that many times you're just not supposed to be doing business with certain people. Those clients may look alluring... They may look like big catches... But the truth may be that they're a horrible fit for your business's goals and aspirations.
So it turns out that sometimes, many rejections are just protecting you both, the client and yourself, from getting involved in a deal that will only bring ruin to both of your businesses.
So we gotta learn to be lighthearted about it. Not all deals are meant for our business.
And in very much the same manner, not all relationships are meant for our lives.
And we gotta learn to be okay with that truth.
Just like in business...
Exactly! The first premise someone is working from is what is wrong in the first place: how can I extract something out of them? They're not seeing women as humans, they're seeing them as some kind of vending machine. No one should expect or feel entitled to anything from anyone because wtf? A lot of guys need to deprogram from all that shit that pickup artists have shoveled into their brains. They need to not even consider them as a source of information because what they're selling is literally based on misogynistic bullshit. It's also so detrimental to men as well because of all the internalized patriarchal bullshit. It teaches guys how to be disassociated and detached not only from themselves, but from people around them. And that is the basis of this isolation.
@@Sarah-re7cg This crap is not even coming from pickup artists.
It's simply our natural inclination to treat every obstacle as a puzzle to solve.
When we want something, our natural first response is to approach the issue from logic, and try to create a path in our mind to reaching that goal.
But human relationships aren't as clean cut. Outcomes aren't as clearly defined. And things get messy often. Which is why approaching it from logic *is* the mistake.
Human relationships aren't a problem to be solved. They are an experience to be lived and shared.
Outcomes don't matter. What matters is the shared journey. The feelings shared. And the joy experienced. The tears, the bliss, the heartbreak, all of it!
To live it fully, and earnestly. Without having a specific goal in mind.
Simply... to be in the moment...
That's how the best friendships are experienced, and the best courtships too.
She's very smart, and very articulate. She's very blind to her own biases and how she's projecting her traumas, and her own lack of empathy.
Yet she was spouting her trauma the entire time while denegrating the male experience and what they suffer.
@@Wavewave583 Different person. For starters, everyone has their own trauma and biases. That's just part of being human. In terms of reducing, you're the only one who did that. OP commented on things Sweet Anita did/said, not on the entirety of their part in the conversation. You are of course free to disagree with Zeb's conclusion (I personally agree with them), but you may find it useful to ask why you assumed that a generalization or reduction had occurred.
frankly, worst kind of person to have in one's life.
This is a woman that has dealt with stalkers before just keep that in mind. Despite her skewed understanding of the reality of a male/being a male. She like everyone else on this planet has conditioned herself to accept her own "beliefs." So there is no need for judgement just understanding of why she thinks this way. It is also acceptable to tell someone they are wrong when they are clearly wrong. You don't have to be disrespectful just be honest. In no way does this viewpoint help her in life, it does however help feed her limitations. You don't have to be an addict to your doom and gloom as if it will always keep you safe, it doesn't and it never will.
When women rejecting you puts you at risk of being kidnapped or murdered by them, then we can talk
I always wanted to be a friend with someone first, before dating her. I've sort of had the opposite problem with women not understanding that I would be open to dating them if they would bother to be my friend first.
That what I did to find my husband. We both stay in the friendzone for a long while. Checking if we can be friends before blooming this into something else.
Been married to him for 14 years.
Being friend is actually important and all friendships grows but it doesn't always grow in the same way and if you don't have feelings and the other one have them it's actually healthy to stop that relationship and everyone should respect this hard situation on both side.
I feel a lot of resentment coming from this person, who has probably had a lot of bad experiences with men, so it's probably understandable, but I still get a knot in my stomach listening to her.
Nobody gives that same empathy to men complaining about women. A lot of what she said was exaggerating, like the study about degrading a women in a video game? Tons of men have the opposite problem that they don’t degrade women but put them up on a pedestal.
@Mina Botieso putting women on a pedastel, especially if the woman doesn't want to be put there, is dehumanizing also. Saying this as someone who's prone to doing that, too; it can make it very uncomfortable for the other side and is not fair.
@@blaulin damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Never change, you lot. Never change.
@hillehai women who want to be put on a pedestal are weird, though lol. I don't think you should cater to them
@@hillehai and I personally deem myself logically consistent btw
Hah, I love how he immediately rejected the idea that you cannot be rejected without being known. Anita, approaching someone and even several meters away without even saying a word, being greeted by the hardest eye-roll and the most annoyed look known to mankind is not exactly confidence boosting. Being (non verbaly) told I am not even worth a human greeting is some hardcore rejection.
Edit: keep in mind, if you actually choose someone to shoot your shot at, you
1. noticed something you liked about that person
2. you have a goal, it's insanely hard not to have hopes and dreams about how that is going to go. expectation -> suffering
It takes a lot of introspection to get over that. It's not by default.
I assume that according to your high moral stance of how Anita and all woman should school their face to smile pleasantly at everyone "giving a human greeting", you are not a hypocrite and you smile kindly at elderly ladies and gentelman, at obese ladies and gentelman at ugly ladies and gentelman and at children? Because I don't get why this addresses specifically woman?
@@hdshjs Assume along. No where did I make a moral judgment, it's going to have reasons people act a certain way and I certainly didn't say anything about smiling.
I did say, that recoiling at the idea of any form of interaction is a form of rejection even if you nothing about them. And taking that action personal is the default option for most people.
He had to take some time to think about what to say after that moment but he was immediately able to push back on her rejection explanation because it’s so obviously not the reality for men and women.
She talks for the whole video about studies and macropicture generalizations but then when she talks about rejection, it’s all personal anecdotes.
I like her mindset that she only wants to date people that she asks out but that’s not reality. She talked about how she handles rejection because she knows that’s not how it mostly jappens
i don’t think it’s your fault, most people just don’t like being approached by strangers i think
@@julius-ceasar wrong.
I honestly believe that some people lack or lost compassion because at one point in their life (or a constant experience), they were hurting and no one gave a f**k. The world treated them like sh*t, so they learned to treat other people like sh*t. It's not too late to change that, life is filled with RNG and those same people could've just asked emotional support from level 100 narcissists (hopefully they also change/d). I hope they find their compassion again.
Really missed these long-form content creator interview content, what a tasteful treat!
Literally this. When the world's given you nothing but shit, you aren't taught how to be a decent person. It doesn't excuse being a horrible person, but it is an explanation. Trauma does weird things to people.
Yeah, I was in the same boat. It took me verbally abusing a cousin of mine to a degree that even I was shocked I ever said those words to him to realize I have become the very thing that I despised with abject hatred. And it was that hatred that led me to do the same. I still regret that to this day because I know those words would also stick to him in the same way the words that plagued my mind for years have.
This was part of a stream, and Dr K talked exactly about this before this
@@csanadtemesvari9251 Yeah, I watched this live. And this belief started after Dr.K explained why people lack compassion. All credits to him tbh.
Literally me right now. My parents kicked me out when I was 19. I have no friends. I've learned that this world doesn't care about anyone and you have to learm to survive on your own. And I'm fine with that, but I sure as hell aint caring about anyone else then.
I'm not deep in this yet but Anita Sarkissian did not "just review" games.
This is just such a disingenuous statement.
Not to justify any harassment she may have experienced, but the backlash against her was definitely not without merit.
Agh the compliment thing is so real. I come from a toxic family and kids being nice to me at school used to boggle my mind lol.
It's so true that men will receive a genuine compliment on a random afternoon and hold on to it for the rest of our lives
@@steveloge8119 well, let today be that afternoon! If that's you on the photo - gorgeous beard and objectively a very handsome man who's rocking said beard! **bows and fades back into shadows**
A date told me there's no point complimenting me. With my looks I probably hear that I'm pretty all the time. I was an adult and had only been told it once.
@@steveloge8119 I still distinctly remember being called handsome at prom like 10 years ago
Idk why men not being complimented would ever be a reason for assault. There are ugly women too who never get compliments and they generally aren’t creating revenge porn or murdering sex workers.
It is a pretty wild assumption from Anita that men who are her friends and then ask for sex/romantic interactions had those all along and where just hiding them instead i the possibility that the men may have developed those feelings DURING THE FRIENDSHIP.
Yeah, that's what disturbed me most about this conversation. I'm surprised Dr.K didn't react one bit to that. And especially that "sleep with me or I dump you as a friend" BS she ranted about at 46:34. A pretty toxic opinion if you ask me.
Shows complete lack of understanding of how emotions work.
She talks as if she's entitled to have a man's friendship no matter what, and if he chooses to end that friendship because he had developed romantic feelings, well, let's label him as "he was just my friend because he was hoping for sex"
Exactly. One could say that is being demisexual - being emotionally attracted to someone. Emotional attraction sort of requires emotional attachment and nurturance. I suppose skills can be developed to help demisexuals, but again. Where does one find these skills?
@@zorkan111 This is a take that assumes that that she is lying about her friends saying things such as "Or was I wasting my time" or the thing to that effect. That's not a toxic opinion, that's her perception of the situation based on what she experienced. She does not ever express any entitlement to men in her life to be her friends. What she expressed multiple times was asking people if they are interested, and they refused to commit, and then blindsiding her.
She also described telling people that she will let them *know* if she is interested in them, and some people still getting upset with her for not sharing her feelings.
What that is a description of, is one of a huge oversight of empathy and maturity on the part of the person asking Anita to reciprocate, when she has done all that she can do to let them know she is not interested before they decide to make these choices.
I am not sure where you are hearing entitlement "no matter what" to friendship in that.
I can understand why you might feel "he was just my friend to get sex" would be an overstatement, but in the context of telling people you are friends, and treating them as a friend, and asking them if they are interested in you, with those people refusing to admit it, only to wait *years* to tell her they were hoping she would accept them, how is this her fault?
In this situation she is guilty of what, exactly? Because I want you to really think about how you would feel if someone who you were not interested in, played your friend for years only to ask if you are gonna date them, and indicated that that is why they wanted to be your friend, not just because they liked you for you. Like really really think about that.
@@DadMusashi Yes, but then the point still stands that she generalizes her perception as the objective standard.
Also she repeatedly uses the clear formulation of "rejecting someone" NEVER of "being rejected".
The way how Anita keeps the perspective of the one who reject CONSISTENTLY during the interview is to me a pretty strong hint that she rarely or never has faced romantic rejection in her life.
@@TheCap319Your only a creep if she doesn’t find you remotely attractive lol nah just make a move the first few instances you start feeling attracted. It’s a lot easier to walk away with the rejection.
If you let it go on a women had only maybe 50-60% into you she will be worried about the friendship being ruined and won’t take that risk on dating.
Sooner the bandaid is pulled I think is the best chance and easiest outcome. Plus it shows you go after what you want.
Her concept of the friend zone is odd... she's implying that people cannot grow feelings for each other by getting to know each other more and supporting each other and going through experiences. She's assuming you immediately like someone and if you get feelings down the line or build attachment you are manipulative and a bad person.
Maybe that is true for those who have honed their skills... But when boys will be boys is a phrase that exudes emotional neglect, it is hard to understand this subtly when it's coming from such an emotional deficit due to social emotional neglect of men that results in "normative male alexithymia".
Yeah, she doesn feel rather "black and white" on sexual attraction.
Yeah, and that whole point doesn't resonate with what she's saying somewhere after 1 hour mark. Especially in that "I'm the initiator" part of the dialogue. So like it's okay if she would grow feelings and then tells, but somehow she completely denies the same possibility for the other side
I agree. She comes off very judgemental, assumptive, and condescending.
I think she just lost too many friends to that
She has a lot of interesting points, but I really don't like her idea that just because people, in this case men or mostly teenage boys have trouble talking to the opposite sex, she thinks it's because they're bad people for some stupid reason or another. I personally was bullied by most girls my age until I was 14, so it took a while for me to act "normal" with them. It wasn't the hardest thing ever, but I had to learn by myself that not every girl is gonna hate me the second she sees me, but some people will struggle with that. Pretty hateful and judgmental stance to have on this. Asking for empathy and having none whatsoever to give back, she even says so herself.
Yep, it's a deeply sexist assumption from her.
She got me feeling like a sexist when I agree with her?? I’m so confused…
@@fergalicious6337 She's a sexist no doubt about that
There is a separate type of friendzone that gets rarely talked about: Those who for some reason are unable to clearly express their interest in someone, and instead, send out the wrong signals, signals of a platonic friendship. Those people don't feel entitled to the other person's genitals, they do view the other person as a person, but feel miserable, because it seems to them as if no one is interested in them romantically, and/or they feel miserable because they feel that something is wrong with _them_, but can't find out what exactly. This can be heartbreaking and soul-crushing. These people aren't assholes; rather, they need someone to talk to. But often, they are also loners who have trouble connecting with people in general.
The best remedy is a friend who for example watches them when they try to approach someone who they are romantically interested with. The feedback they get from that friend can then be eye-opening. One example for a wrong signal is that they just never clearly ask that person out for a date, and rather, just talk about hanging out, going shopping etc. - stuff that friends do. These people then often are unaware that they are doing this, so a friend who then tells them "you should have asked him/her out directly" would help out so much.
You are responsible for your own life and self growth. I see men waiting for someone to come save them or show them the way.
Taking ownership of what you don’t know and then taking action to learn on your own is just how life goes.
If you waited for someone how to tell you to do everything at work, then you’d never be employed or promoted.
Yes it’s uncomfortable and yes you will make mistakes but that is life.
Take ownership and stop making excuses.
I think a lot of people's problems roots in problems in self-confidence and insecurities, in one way or another. Even for the "assholes". Self-confidence helps to be OK with rejection, because the person know that it does not mean that they suck as a person, they would still feel safe with their self image to not be destroyed by a rejection. So yes, I agree with you, I think most people who are sick scared of rejection just need someone to talk to, maybe a therapist too, to help themselves build a solid self image that will not be shaken by being rejected by someone else.
@meredithwilliams4326 thanks for the casual reminder men are alone in the world and no one wants to help.
A lot of men grew up without good male role models so not knowing how to approach romantically, either through over or under shooting, is increasingly common. The danger is over shooting will sometimes work so gets reinforced.
I appreciate Anita and always enjoyed her interviews, but I feel like in this interview particularly there have been some great overgeneralizations and even dangerous assumptions in my opinion. For example, I feel like it's a dangerous message to send to women that they shouldn't go to the police after being SA'ed because 'the police will do background checks on you and try to discredit you', and while this happens in some places in the world (Japan for example is notoriously bad at handling these cases), it's inaccurate to say that this is always how it is.
Another example is with the idea that when a woman does OnlyFans or pornography and then becomes a teacher, that she gets fired immediately. This is true, but it is equally true to male porn stars. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that society sees men (unlike women)'s sexuality as a dangerous thing, and so nobody could convince me that if the school's management found out that Mr.Smith also goes by "Bob the Gangbanger", that they would not immediately fire them on the spot.
I understand that this is how she feels, and after what she went through I can't even blame her for feeling this way, but I would be lying if I said that I feel like a lot of her arguments felt somewhat one-sided and should at the very least be challenged.
Again, not trying to invalidate her experiences or how she feels, but something about the way things were being said bothered me.
Agreed, i just really appreciate how she stands up for sex workers, who are often dehumanized. she could have been more clear that she was talking about sex workers of all genders. at least i hope she was.
Also, I disagree with her story about guys who are afraid of getting rejected because they're afraid of failing to fulfill their sexual needs with her body, like, omg o_o are guys, or even anyone else, just not allowed to be attracted to anyone else? Like, sorry, not sorry, not everyone is demisexual...
@@vidzorko4492 word
In the UK, if you report a r*pe to police, they're allowed to take the victim's phone and search everything on there, and they are also allowed to use the victim's therapy notes. They do this to discredit the victim so it doesn't go to court, if you don't believe me look it up.
@@Bioniclema90 Yeah and moreover, it's so incredibly damaging to have women tell you that all you want is sex. It's putting you in this box where you're like a dog wagging his tail at a treat, and it feels so dehumanizing honestly. I can look at a girl and think she has beautiful eyes and a nice smile and it makes me feel warm inside. I can look for deeper connections with people. As a man, it can be so so damaging hearing that opinion, because we are not taught about that as kids, and now every time we feel something, we immediately have to chalk it up for just being "sexual desire", and its so confusing.
It also adds to the harmful idea that men and women cannot be friends, 'because if you feel even remotely affectionate towards your female friends, you must want more'.
I had to talk with my friends about this to fully understand this, but as someone who grew up with a misandrist mother (whos is much better these days, love you mom lol), _that_ is what really bothered me.
You guys, we can feel emotions too, and we aren't wrong or bad for feeling them.
The lack of empathy around friend/fuck-zoning is so frustrating to me, because it seems like both sides can very clearly articulate how it feels from their side, not realising that the experience of the other side is fundamentally very similar. Person A has an expectation of what their connection with person B should result in, but person B doesn't want that, so person A feels hurt/disappointed/rejected. Neither person is entitled to anything from the other: the man is not entitled to the woman's affection/love/sex, and the woman is not entitled to the man's time/friendship.
Based on this conversation, I would disagree on the experience being similar because the "friendzoned" side is playing a game from the beginning to make the other side fall in love with them and is then disappointed when they lose the game/realize that all their investment didn't lead to the desired outcome. The "fuckzoned" side is in the meantime convinced they are building a genuine friendship here because the other side acts accordingly to that purpose and so they behave authentic and friendly the whole time, only to find out that the other side just didn't make their intentions clear and are now openly disappointed because they didn't fall for them. These seem to be 2 very different experiences of hope, trying your best and manipulating while getting rejected in the end vs. building and having trust while getting "betrayed" in the end. Sure, eventually both are disappointed in the other side but for very different reasons: The fuckzoned one because of the other side not being entirely genuine from the start as well as just giving up this friendship and the friendzoned one because of the other side being too genuine/friendly.
"an expectation of what their connection with person B should result in" weird way of putting it bro
Yeah, it really was somewhat disturbing to listen to her rant at 46:34 about "sleep with me or I dump you as a friend". She says "that's a horrible thing to do to someone" as if she's entitled to the guys friendship.
She doesn't seem to understand that, once you develop romantic feelings for someone, it can be excruciatingly difficult to just casually hang out with them without being in a romantic relationship.
She seems to misconstrue man not being able to hang out with her anymore with her with "oh, he was just using our friendship to get to sex".
@@maxweber5250 My understanding of the term "friendzoned" is that it refers to any situation where a man wants a relationship/sex from a woman, but the woman "only" wants to remain friends. I've never heard it used, or used it myself, to refer specifically to men manipulating women into sex.
If that is actually what the term "friendzoned" means and I've just been using it wrong my whole life, how can we refer to a situation that's essentially the opposite of the one you described, where a man believes they are building a genuine connection that's building towards something more? Maybe the nomenclature around all this has just evolved and I missed it?
@@evedotcom I'm curious to hear why? To expand a little, the way I see it is: if the man wants a relationship/sex from a woman, and spends time with them, doing things with them they wouldn't normally do, because they believe that's how they can build towards what they want, then they have an expectation of what that relationship will eventually lead to. Likewise, if a woman wants to be friends with a man, and spends time with them assuming that they're building towards a friendship, then the woman has an expectation of what that relationship will lead to.
I (female) actually started finding a way to sneak in that I have a boyfriend in the first 5 minutes with just about any guy. Not like, "I have a boyfriend," but like "O yeah my boyfriend loves that video game."
Thank you, I can tell you're a really kind and gentle person, very tactful. Please teach more wmn to do it this way
I always wondered if women do that deliberately!
@luddite31 TBH, I'm not trying to lead anyone on, and I just wanna be friends, so the quicker we get on the same page that I'm looking for friendship over romance, the better. I can't speak for everyone tho.
That being said, I personally have close friends that I would probably die for, so being designated as a friend instead of a lover isn't an insult.
It's just we're monogamous creatures, so we can't have sex as I have found someone for that role, ya know?
i do thatttt
As a dude, I greatly appreciate stuff like this. I would never want someone to knowingly try to come between my gf and I when I have one, so I hold myself to the same standard. When a girl makes it clear she's taken, it makes conversation so much easier to navigate because I cut out any and all idea of being flirty.
"What about your experience does not translate into empathy for men who are afraid of getting rejected?"
Yeah I wish he really pushed her for a direct answer to that specifically
most likely because she has experienced her entire life as a woman.
Bro she explains it pretty decently. She doesn’t determine her self worth on how other see or treat her. She knows that someone rejecting her must have nothing to do with her as a person bit everything with the person that rejected her.
@@Leonie-tz3tz
Because she doesn't need to develop a personality to attract men
Men have to be smart, kind, empathetic, confident, have social status, be financially stable, in order for woman to even consider them
Do you think Anita needs to be anything more than a good-looking woman to attract men?
@Ungabunga.44 OR she just has an internal sense of self confidence, like a healthy individual. You shouldn't judge your worth based on others sexual intrest in you, and just because you're rejected doesn't mean there is anything wrong with you. People have their own preferences. It's not arrogant or thinking you're perfect, it's the mentality everyone should cultivate
It's easy to get over rejection and be ''mature'' when you've actually been told ''yes'' at any point in life. If you've only gotten ''no''-s, you can't not internalize that.
..yeah woman should say "yes" to the guy with his tracktor on his fb pic who asks "Are you shy?" As second sentence.. yeah we really should really empatise with this kind of guys. 😅🥲
Creeeepyyyy.....
@@lisaart5301 Literally not what he's saying, lol.
@@lisaart5301 it’s hard making men complaining about dating seem more reasonable than women but you have accomplished it
@@minabotieso6944 is it tho?
Yes, this relates to the idea that the number 1 reason single people get into relationships is having prior experience. That you've explored this new facet of Life.
A facet the inexperience of can feel like a train that already left the station without you. But since the willingness to get there is the number 2 reason, you can catch up to it with that train instead.
Rejection is subjective and often tied to prior insecurities.
It's amazing that Anita has reached the point of personal growth whereas rejection doesn't project her value as a person for her, but that doesn't deny the feelings that another person might feel when denied a conversation etc.
She is in no way responsible for that at all - but at the same time you can't decide what rejection is and isn't as it's up to each individual person.
A man being nervous to start a conversation doesn't have to be that he wants to get in her pants, it might just be that he wants to be seen, to be interesting enough or be worth the time.
As a man, not being able to even entertain a conversation with a woman is painful enough. Sex is in a different galaxy, when the words coming out our mouths fall flat.
As a woman, I would say Anita's understanding of rejection is also not shared with most other women. But it's important to note that she is a demisexual, so that will affect how she views rejection.
@@brennam954 This is why when someone uses a word and defines am action differently than 99% of the population does, and once she is aware of that fact she still uses it her way, there's no point in me continuing the conversation. Imagine a person that defines "love" and "loving someone" entails literally owning the other person. You'd never want to be near such a person. Same concept here mostly.
@@O_Canada I mean, I can imagine the female group shitting on one of their own if she wasn't able to get a guy's phone number, but at the same time girl friend groups are much more tight nit. They're much more likely to shit on the guy for having refused one of them. I've never seen that with a guy group though.
I'm shocked that no one has pointed out that Anita is also coming from the perspective of being literally stalked and romance zoned by her friends for YEARS as shown by her first interview. She has to think of rejection this way because it's much harder to reject the hoards of people who like her otherwise
Not sure why it's so difficult to understand that it is intimate for men to share their feelings. We are very selective about it, because we expect ourselves to be strong , someone who can provide support instead of needing it. So when we do it, understand that this is special and rare, nothing like the way women do it. And we do not want our problems to be shared around by someone we confided our deepest thoughts in.
oh, women do understand this. Most just dont care, because they love that sweet sweet gossip fuel about someone. He's always just a means to her ends.
As far as I listen to her, she basically judges everything from a viewpoint that everything against women is cultural injustice. I mean when she says that sex workers are being replaced when they are old and that it is happening because we as a society have something against women’s sexuality that’s just takes a cake.
Or "murders of sex workers are rarely investigated". Ok are the murders of drug dealers and pimps investigated? Like cmon now, murders in general are not investigated, murders of low class common criminals are certainly not investigated. Not that i think sex work should be illegal but it is.
What Sweet Anita said about a lot of men not having basic friendship skills is painfully true. My husband and I were talking about this and he admitted that his relationships with his male friends are very surface level with very little emotional support. The things me and my female friends are willing to share would be seen as "gay" with his friends, when it's just basic support.
Its an extremely tough hill to climb over. It takes me pretty much at least a year of being friends with a male to be able to delve into deeper topics such as mental health. Thanks for your perspective!
I feel SO insanely lucky to have more than one close male friend that I feel relatively comfortable talking about emotional/sensitive issues with. Because I see and hear so much of this.
@@baaqu69 You dont talk to women often, do you?
@@xB0505 …Here comes the shaming……..
@@k9blazesensation People should be shamed for being misogynists tho. If my comment offended you it probably hit the mark
Anita: "you can't be rejected until the person knows you"
Anita: "i don't date people i dont ask out"
The dichotomy of expecting people not to expect things beyond or outside of friendship ever but predicating the idea of rejection or acceptance itself not existing until someone is intimately close, before even starting a relationship is probably the source of friendzones
you should probably try and dismantle this concept of being stuck in a «friend zone » it will be ultimately very damaging for all your relationships with women, instead you should focus on seeing them entirely as a person (which you need to know a person before you can develop any romantic feelings). Being immediately sexually attracted to someone isn’t enough and doesn’t entitle either party to seeking anything more than a friendship
*friend zone
@@meghanohalloran729 ahh i lve never been in the friend zone
I was just examining the dynamics i think lead to those scenarios
Look, people work on a spectrum, not in clear cut boxes!
You are not expected to never have a change of feelings in relationships or pretend you don't have feelingss. You are expected to give proper raport of where you are at and allow the other person to check where they are at. And you are expected to manage your emotions and behaviours REGARDLESS of the outcome of the negotiation.
She does not date people she does not ask out, cause she needs time to develop feelings. Because she's got trauma to handle!
-> You can like a person and befriend them to get to know each other. If you develop further feelings: talk! Process the outcome.
-> if you already have feelings, talk right away about being interested in dating! Process the outcome!
There is no "friend zone". That is what we call it, when:
- a person enters a friendship although they clearly have romantic interest already (aka betrayal of friendship)
- when friends develop romantic feelings, doesn't communicate them and is resentful (betrayal of friendship)
- when a friend develops romantic feelings, communicates them, gets turned down, is presented with an option to part or stay friends, chooses friendship BUT does continue to feed their romantic feelings rather than processing them in order to have a fully blown frindship (aka betrayal of friendship)
-> You do not need to be friends to get to know a person. It's called "dating" or "hanging out in group setting" or "being acquaintaned"
-> You do not have to have stable feelings towards other people. We all change through time. You are expected to be ready to handle change maturely and be ready to seriously priorise your choices (aka be ready to lose a friendship and part ways in mutual respect OR take a break from friendship to process the romantic feelings and choose friendship without resentment). You can expect issues, if you cannot stabilise your thoughts and emotions within a relationship for prolonged periods
"friend zone"'s true name is "resentment".
Anita said, that a "no" to a stranger, is not a personal rejection.
Anita said, that she gets to know people and then sometimes develops feelings and then communicates those. Noone said no friend can ever develop romantic feelings. What she talk about is "As women, we lose too many male friends to their inabiliy to process their feelings sufficiently and be capable of maintaining a friendship once we have ruled out romance!". Not the "having feelings" is the issue. It's the "not knowing how to attend to them in mature ways". Feelings happen all the time. If you ever fell in love with a high authority person (or distant celebrity), still could maintain a work relationship (or your sanity) and managed to get to the point where they were "a person you liked" but no longer a love interest, then you KNOW how to do it!
We sure as heck do not blame people for loving deeply! We are upset with the expectation of that having to result in relationship and only romantic relationship. And we are very upset with attention that is objectifying and has nothing to do with love or romanic relationship (aka men struggling with knowing what their intrinsic motivators are). Or upset with even musual purely sexual agreements that end up not mutual, but rather self-serving on one end.
I hope this helps to clarify some stuff. These seem to be key points that are frequently lost and miscommunicated.
No. Absolutely not. I fucking hate that phrase "friend zone." Becoming friends with someone allows you to actually get to know them. If you are unable to see women, even those you're initially attracted to first as a friend or someone to get to know, I dont know what to tell you. It's not seeing women as having some kind of humanistic intrinsic value, it's seeing them only as someone to potentially fuck.
Im Sorry, but i didn't understand her. if someone initially approaches you, they only want your body, but if they get to know you first and then feelings develop, they will also be rejected. the only hope for a relationship is to be interesting enough to be approached by a woman. i wonder where that leads.
I’m gonna be honest, if you want to talk to a girl go talk to her. Folk dunno what they want until they see it and all their rules go out the window if they find you attractive/appealing enough.
Bro, it's still not her responsibility to accept you. And it's not like getting to know someone isn't ever the first part of a relationship. But if you only get to know women because you want a committed/sexual/romantic relationship, your negative bias is going to do you in. People who have no expectations get luckier, luck being a construct of the mind of course.
I want to stress that almost every committed/sexual/romantic relationship between two people occurred after and was contingent on them getting to know each other and understanding each other subsequently. The only scenarios where this isn't true are people rushing shit, or people dating to get over bad breakups. And those are both catastrophic scenarios.
She is talking about her self. She isnt looking for a relationship. She is also demi sexual , she needs to have to know someone for a long time in order to develop feelings for them. What she talks about is people that keeps pushing when she isnt interested in them.
I think what she doesn't realize is that the primary reason that these guy's feel and behave this way is because the believe/were taught that love is transactional. "If I want any girl to like me I have to somehow become worthy of liking by doing xyz" is exactly what someone thinks when they don't think they are inherently deserving of love. I think some of this is from parenting issues, some of this is from early rejections in childhood traumatizing them, some of this for me was that people (girls and guys) often used me for various things and I learned that the only way to socialize with people was to let them use me and as a reverse I tried to use them back so it wasn't just people walking over me. Almost none of these behaviors are caused by inherent evil or often even malicious intentions. Their usually a mix of bad parenting, trauma, bad examples, and they are never taught how to live
Exactly, it's externalising your self worth and it affects both men and women. She showed quite a lack of empathy there which is a shame but I get that she has things in her past that may preclude her from doing so.
"I think what she doesn't realize is that the primary reason that these guy's feel and behave this way is because the believe/were taught that love is transactional."
Then it's not love anymore, it's lust.
Women are also transactional, the only difference is that they don't have to pretend not to be transactional in order to get la1d.
"If I want any girl to like me I have to somehow become worthy of liking by doing xyz"
If I want any guy to like me, I have to somehow look pretty, youthful and have a hot body so that I get attention.
Same ish. In that scenario, If either got rejected they're not a victim. They're just unattractive.
I made an edit below, if you relate please read it.
I think a key part of not putting girls in the fuck zone is being aware that you’re romanticizing women. I used to do that, now I don’t. The problem is, when I stopped doing that I inadvertently killed off my feelings for romance entirely. I learned it’s not something I wanted, it’s something I did in the hope for love when all I want is to be able to be seen as a vulnerable man and accepted. Being romantic (when dating) was a performance with an intended outcome, not a genuine expression.
So killing off the part of me that romanticizes women has kind of killed off a lot of dating for me because now I see it as jumping through hoops as opposed to something I enjoy. I don’t know how to fix this, if I should, or if I’m just aromantic or something. I’m still trying to date, but it’s harder because I’m not interested in playing a traditional role. I don’t want to pay for dinners, or protect anyone, or any of that traditional gibberish. I want genuine expressions that I emotionally connect to, or nothing.
Edit 3/9
I learned that what I am is called “Gender Non-conforming.” I found out there’s a whole section of some dating apps full of people who feel like I do. If you relate, maybe check it out. I barely even read the google definition and instantly knew it’s how I’ve felt the whole damn time.
I feel you on this. When I learned about being more respectful and not sexualizing women, it killed any desire to approach women or feel okay viewing them in a sexual light.. I haven't found the solution either.
damn this hit differently
This is definitely for the best in the long run (woman here). You’re not focused on meeting a role that isn’t authentic to who you are. Now you can focus (if you want) on finding people who likewise aren’t interested in playing games, filling a function, and just want to be themselves. It’s a far better foundation for making real friendships, regardless of whether they also have a sexual or romantic aspect to them. I wish you well in figuring out who you are and what you are actually looking for. ❤
@@Dimitris_Half Not at all. Sex is incredible. I believe the term is aromantic (if that’s what’s actually happening) when someone doesn’t experience romance. Unfortunately, they’re not linked for everyone.
@@Sahdirah Thank you! 😁
1:02:20 You can see that Sweet Anita has internalized a lot of misandry, herself. At every point in the interview, she consistently assumes the worst in men. She thinks that if a man has trouble talking to women, it's automatically because he's a bad person or wants to become some stereotypical "player", and not that he just....has trouble talking to women.
It's deeply ironic -- even tragic, actually -- that she has such a lack of empathy towards men on an interview that began with her lamenting the lack of empathy for women. I think it's also very telling about the nature of the society that we live in today, which is endlessly embroiled in bullshit identity politics that are all predicated on each side pushing their personal grievances and nobody listening to the other side.
She wants men to listen to her but refuses to listen in return. To be very fucking blunt, sayiing to men with approach anxiety, "Just talk to women," is like someone saying to her about her Tourette's Syndrome, "Just stop making those weird noises with your mouth!" Lol, does she SERIOUSLY not get it? We aren't living in a god damn Nike commercial. Some things in life just are not as simple as, "Just do it." The fact that SHE, with her background and condition, is unable to understand this is enough to make me give up on humanity, to be honest.
Honestly, this interview really rubbed me off the wrong way because of the misandry. Like sure she had issues with several men being POS on her stream and stalking her IRL. But her attitudes and behaviour shown here IMO is no different than one of an incel. (Like this interview gave me the same vibe when Dr. K interviewed that one incel.)
Yes, she's been harassed and stalked all her life because of her being a woman and her disability. Yet here you are playing the perfect victim because she has internalized misandry, very understandably. Give me a break
As an attractive 25 year old man, I have found that being a safe and respectful person towards women in every possible way allows the people around me to put their guards down. And it is from this unguarded position tends to flip the script. Women who like me approach me and let me know and can even sometimes treat me in ways that would typically make a girl uncomfortable if a man treated her in the same way.
A way to shortcut this is to walk through the world in respect to whoever you'll end up with in the end of it all. Why waste time trying to manipulate someone else into intimacy when they have no desire to be intimate with you already? Just love yourself as if that person who wants you is already there and wants the best for you.
Oh that last part is great but I found it helpful not to say "as if", because I learnt that the person that loves me and wants the best for me is already there and it's myself.
Learnt that after a harsh rejection. Now I'm engaged, 36 years old and 7 weeks out from the birth of my first son.
This is an interesting interview to listen to. As a woman, for me personally I would prefer to have feelings develop by getting to know each other. I want someone to value me for more than my looks, because as we age we will eventually lose the things that people may have found attractive initially. Friendship is a good basis that can lead to more.
If a man is upfront about his romantic desires from day 1, I do appreciate that honesty but if they have not known me it's difficult for me to get something started so soon. In addition, a lot of these men who approached me about love had done so with a lot of extremely negative undertones of desperation and unrealistic expectations. Desperation adds pressure, which kills attraction for me. And expectations can result in disappointments. One spoke poorly about his ex girlfriend and was talking of ways to take revenge, or prove her wrong, which I am not here for. If he speaks poorly about an ex in such a way, I'd fear he would treat me with such vengefulness or bitterness as well. Negativity is fine to a certain extent, unless there are indicators this may be harmful for future relationships too.
Key thing is pacing, I have spoken to women guilty of the above as well. I overshare too soon and lose opportunity to make friends because of that.
Treat each other you like as you would a friend, build it up slowly over time, and it will increase chances. I'd definitely be attracted to a man who shows me their hobbies, I show mine, we spend time on activities and make our talks personal as time progresses.
Honestly this is a great post and this is how i learnt to do it as a guy. Honestly i don't ask woman out at all. It puts folks on the spot. I love being friends with folks though, i really value relationships with everyone, so there is no expectations. Not only can it be attractive to see the hobby, but sometimes you can share one you didn't know about.
One day, you just turn around and you are looking at each other differently!
It takes longer and more effort but it has worked for me. Its got be safer too, i think. Random person on street, that you like, how do u know if they are any good as a romantic partner. Also i've seen the movie Under the Skin...just saying lol
You are speaking in near direct opposition to Anita here and to me goes to show one of the reasons why dating and relationships are so difficult. There are no rules to this courting process, it's just "do whatever you want" and hope that the person sitting across from you views that as the appropriate courtship dance.
It still to this day is amusing if not worthy of asking why it is that we humans can't agree on what rituals are to be performed in order to adequately and appropriately display mutual interest so as to seek to minimize suffering in the process. I believe both genders capable of coming to such a conclusion in the majority, but it is a question whether either gender has anything left in the tank to discuss the matter to create 1 plan that creates less painful experiences for both genders.
@@Erad1288 you nailed it!
As a man I agree. Whatever happened to the idea of friendships turning into romantic relationships?? If a young man or boy doesn't know all this theory then it's natural of him to approach someone as a friend and then ask them out after getting to know them. So, no, not all men who are in the friend zone are trying to manipulate you. That's how men tend to think naturally, until a dating coach tells them to approach more directly. Try to apply it to yourself, how would you have gone about approaching a person you liked in highschool or elementary school? Most people would try to be friendly at first, it's not really manipulative.
@japjeetmehton9921 I think this whole shitty idea of the friendzone has got to die. It's stupid. I have had guys I've dated tell me that they see me more as a friend, I didn't take it to mean that I had been "friendzoned." It just meant that we weren't right for each other and that's okay. It's okay for people to change their minds, but its also okay for people to develop feelings as they get to know someone better, its natural! Friendzone bullshit tarnishes so many young men's ideas about the value of friendship with women. It is an idea borne out of only valuing women for sex and it needs to die.
The problem with Anita's perception of regection is that she both rejects and is being rejected. For quite a lot of men it's simply not the case. You just get rejected and you feel like there's no other way to get a date (even if you don't like her)
That is a major explanation that needs to be discussed but it’s not the only one.
On top of men having to always be the pursuers, we are also in a loneliness epidemic that’s mostly affecting men. When you have basically nothing if this person rejects you, that makes it hurt more. Being able to fall back on good friends and more options for gfs makes it not hurt.
men are only able to gain social, flirting and dating skills by going out and pursuing it and women have to deal with a bunch and gain those skills.
This is also why men kind of have to put more effort into approaching, women have seen the basic stuff before. Approaching men to try to make friends and even for sex/relationships doesn’t require as much effort into what you are saying
@@MaejorArray It IS mostly affecting men. Men are vastly more likely to live alone than women.
Men are also VASTLY more likely to not be in a relationship or to have had one in the last years.
Men are also having significantly lower amounts of sexual experiences and most men these days by 18 will be virgin, which is significantly lower for women.
Why do you think redpill/tate/incel/MGTOW whatever communities are growing significantly?
Also, the thing about violence is just straight up a misandry stereotype. It's like me saying women are just usually the ones to react with emotional abuse as a result of loneliness. Men = violent propagates the male sexuality being creepy stereotype.
@@MaejorArray wrong.
@@manumaster1990 Stella rebuttal...
They're not saying the violent reaction is inherently masculine / a born characteristic of men. It's taught. Violence and revenge is glorified in the media and culture overall as justice and a masculine action/reaction. So when reality comes knocking at the door of many young men without a support system plus who are emtionally closed off (also taught) making them realise, that they have to work at themselves to be *desirable* to women/girls as well adjusted people, then they lash out at women/girls (I.e. the desired objects) for rejections. Bc instead of the promise and images patriarchy sold to them irl women/girls are as complex of human beings as they're.
Women on the other hand are taught to be gentle and open with emotions so it's easier to have close friendships that support eachother. And if a women is angry and or violent they're labelled as undesirable, rude, hysterical that's why female rage is suppressed as opposed to manifesting in violent ways. No putting any moral judgements on either sides. These are observations of what the system teaches to and expects of both genders.
It's funny how many people forgets to see the opposite gender as just people
Fear of rejection is not about loss of value, its about loss of hope.
I have to agree with you. But I don't think that's the way it is for everyone necessarily.
I think what Anita said about rejection and the guy not knowing her and only desiring her on physical levels is right in a way. At the same time, I think it's a little off.
It's not necessarily about being rejected as a person, for who you are, but about the chance of getting to know that person being rejected for reasons outside of one's understanding or grasp. For someone with rewarding friendships and a healthy social life, this would usually be fine *however* because many guys are often lonely or undersocialised being denied the chance to even get to know someone is saddening and can contribute to a kind of learned helplessness.
It really strikes me as a non-intentional vicious circle :/
It's also how things work? So many chances, whether it's a job or friendships or relationships, is based on how you initially come across and once you've got a foot in the door then you can prove yourself as a person. I think her feeling weird about a guy approaching her because they find her attractive is something that's unhealthy.
@@iRiDiKi I don't think it's unhealthy. You can not like it but I think it's just what it is.
@@iRiDiKiit’s a given that men being the pursuer is how things work even outside of dating. She plays dumb in the video to pretend like that isn’t the cade
I recently found out she's demisexual, so it actually makes a lot of sense in a way. If you didn't know, demisexuality is when a person doesn't feel sexual attraction until they have a deep connection with someone. She doesn't feel attracted to someone that she just met because she has no connection to them.
My only real problem there, is it kinda feels like she struggles to understand how much her experience is different from 'the norm', for lack of a better term. Like, obviously she doesn't know what it's like to want to be with someone she doesn't know, but she doesn't seem to care that she doesn't know what that feels like.
Maybe I'm overthinking it, but it sounds like she decided her view was 'correct', and anyone who doesn't see things the same way doesn't deserve sympathy.
I'd like to see more interviews with her, to maybe clear up some confusion.
its kind of terrifying, though. we live in a world where you’re supposed to have seggs on date three. i would literally never date a guy who asked me out when i barely knew him as a modest woman because i would either have to give in early or be humiliated for “leading him on.”
I find these videos with Sweet Anita to be the most interesting on the channel. You have two people with vast amounts of knowledge and information from two different perspectives that ask questions and give productive, well-articulated, and incredibly informative responses. This is the kind of civilized, productive discourse that is missing from society, and watching these actually makes me feel like some progress is being made to at least try to get viewers to understand the major problems in our society and give them some food for thought for coming up with solutions.
58:55 "We don't speak different languages". She's contradicting herself here. Earlier in the conversation, she talked about how women talk about emotions a lot more. Obviously, men and women communicate differently. Not just men and women. You talk differently to your grandmother, differently to your coworker, differently to your boss. Obviously, there are different styles of communication used in different circumstances. You don't go on a date and talk to your date as you would talk to your boss. And you don't go into a business meeting talking the same way you talked to the other person on a date the night before.
That's what is meant by the question "how do I talk to women?". And I don't see why she's trying to portray it in a negative light when someone attempts to figure out how to actually communicate with another person in a different way.
Something that's really interesting psychologically is how little her tics are happening throughout this conversation. I would assume its a sign of how passionate and engaging the conversation was.
Anita is a smart and very well articulated person. I started watching some of her streams after seeing her first interviews with Dr. K., and I learned a lot about topics I didn't think much about. However, I also started to notice how in every stream she always seemed to talk about women's suffering in society and how awful men are. She's always citing statistics and shooting down any kind of different experience or opinion in chat. She was even straight-up mean to her audience several times, treating her viewers as pathetic and inept men who were only watching her with the hopes of getting sexual with her. So much so, that, try as I might to brush off her generalizations, it started to really affect my self-esteem and make me feel awful and demoralized, even though I'm just a normal and decent human being like most people, and not a manipulative creep or whatever. I just had to stop watching her for my own mental health sake.
I still think she can be smart, funny and kind, but she's not as empathetic as she thinks. Maybe due to her awful experiences with men, she's very dismissive of the feelings and struggles of men, which is ironic considering she's all about making men empathize with the feelings and struggles of women (which I think she succeeds in doing, like in this video).
Anyway, I think these kinds of issues are complex and we should continue to cultivate compassion and empathy in our society by openly talking about these kinds of experiences, like in this video. To any men reading this, I just hope you know you are not a creep for finding a person interesting and wanting to get to know them, or wanting to find a romantic relationship, or fearing being rejected. Most people (men and women) are pretty decent and they go through more similar experiences than they realize.
I love everything you said. I think there can be something problematic when we generalize and talk about groups and try to find the bad guys. I don't think men are worse than women. I think some men, a small percentage are awful. But why do all men have to hear about it when they have nothing to do with it? Why do men, in general, need to do better, when most men are just normal people? Why educate people only on how hard it is to be woman? For example dr K makes videos usually for anyone, and many times about men, but he has also talked about female struggles a bit. We don't need to pick a side, we are not enemies, it's not a competition, and we can all learn about each others problems and be supportive. I think understanding and listening will help us more than being condescending and dismissive to other groups.
Considering she has an unfortunate history of being stalked, harassed, and received credible threats of death/rape, it doesn't surprise me one bit that she would be biased against men. She has every reason to. The shit she's been through is traumatizing to anyone.
True empathy is significantly harder than a lot of people think, and a lot of people who claim to be highly empathetic aren't.
It’s not exactly on her to be a source of validation for men though. I understand her frustrations when often times the topics she discusses are immediately shot down (hence why she has to constantly refer to statistics, as she is used to being bombarded with how these experiences aren’t real).
So while I can see why this would make a guy feel wary of how they may come across to the point that it usurps the desire to listen in, I think the way she has evolved is a direct consequence of not only her personal irl experiences, but how painfully commonplace sexism (and sexism denial, funnily enough) is on the internet.
A lot of guys also hold onto a lot of subtle biases in the way they even perceive women, which is hard to catch due to how men are often taught to not self reflect on their emotions for too long. I do think that if you aren’t a creep as you say you are, you shouldn’t feel targeted by her commentary in the first place, although I can see how the instinctual response would be to feel defensive
@Maria Santos I just wanna say that I appreciate seeing reasonable comments like this that don't just bash anyone who doesn't instantly agree with everything that was said. Level-headed discussion is sorely needed on this topic!
I also like your point about defensiveness. It's easy for us to react defensively, especially when we've had experiences in the past of people disregarding our views or concerns, which is sadly quite common for men. But if someone says something that we feel is unfair or doesn't represent us, instead of reacting defensively we can choose to try to prove ourselves through our actions and how we interact with others.
One thing about the friendzone, as someone who was put into it by my first .... well, love, I guess, is that it doesn't always happen just by completely platonic interaction.
In my case, we went on dates, kissed, made out, she sent me a postcard at one time when I was on vacation, saying how she misses me and spending time with me was "magical" (which is indeed something I still remember because even almost 20 years later, nobody has EVER said something like that to me again, even across multiple relationships).
Then at some point she told me she just liked me as a friend and didn't want to lead me on.
Well excuse me, woman! If that was you not wanting to lead me on, I shudder to think what it would look like to have you actually interested in someone.
So yeah.... while I do understand the case of complete and utter loners mistaking basic human kindness as a sign of romantic attraction, there are certainly also cases of actual attraction that somehow didn't seem to be enough for whatever reason. So I daresay the topic is probably fairly nuanced, and there are people on both sides who cause an issue by their sheer cluelessness or indecision...
Yeah that’s a breakup not a friend zone. Uncool situation but it happens. There’s lots of dating where ‘we’re just friends/not exclusive/just casual’ sort of stuff when only one party knows of that going on. People suck sometimes
@@vortexvibes5944 I don't even think it's that. The attraction had a built in sell by date which she probably wasn't even aware of and couldn't predict.
Maybe she saw something in him and time away/reflection made her change her mind.
I read so many comments like the OP and because no one likes being rejected, they will criticise the one who rejected one without thinking that maybe they had valid reasons; they just don't know what they are or couldn't accept them if they did.
@@vortexvibes5944 Nah, I wouldn't see it as a breakup, we were never really together. It felt like it was going to go in the right direction until it wasn't, but it wasn't really there ...
@@rejectionisprotection4448 I mean, I didn't ever criticize her. Not that kinda guy, why would I react with hostility to someone I loved, even if it was reacting to their rejection?
It took me over a decade to really get over it though. I never found out the why of it - don't get me wrong, I wondered about it every day for years - but maybe that's for the best.
She did tell me she didn't want to lose me as a friend (maybe she thought that since relationships are usually temporary, and the ones she experienced ended messily, we would hate each other afterwards. I dunno. I only know that I never had a bad breakup in my life, I'm still good friends with my first ex - and ironically, even better friends with her new bf).
Turns out she lost me anyway since we drifted apart afterwards.
Ah well. It is how it is I guess.
@@rogthepirate4593 That's the thing; there's no easy why. It may not even be tangible to her either.
People often laugh at the phrase: "it's me, not you". From my pov, it's true.
You can be going along fine, then something changes within, a realisation that where you're at isn't where you want or even need to be. It could be a relationship, a job, a way of life you thought was right for you. You can't always predict this either.
Not criticising her or being angry at her rejection is irrelevant because it wasn't about you. She was being genuine with you as she could be during your dates, but then had a change of heart.
The phrase: "People are in your life for a reason, a season or a lifetime" is quite pertinent and often comforting as well.
The problem is that men are constantly told they are shallow for judging on appearances and that women never do that. In reality, women judge partners just like men, in the first 10 seconds on appearance. You were never friend zoned, she just didn't want you. Women also resent being friend zoned. I have always tried to be kind and considerate to people regardless of male/female. Heaven forbid, if you don't reciprocate the advances of one of your female friends. They will hate you.
"Hell hath no fury..."
Omg the part about the friendzone where Anita says men think she is coming onto them just because she is doing baseline friend things was mindblowing. Made me realize I used to think that too of some of my female friends too (and I am gay).
that says a lot about how men are treated and conditioned i think! even if im wrong, thank you very much!
Yes I have learnt to not be so nice because it often gets mistaken for me hitting on them.
I have the reverse happen because I am an average looking woman, I will be friendly to guys I meet and they will deliberately blank me because they think I'm trying to crack onto them! Just because I'm being friendly! There really is a massive gap in our society regarding reading social cues and I think it would be awesome if people did more to educate themselves and each other, it would probably help a lot of neurodivergent folks to whom these cues don't come naturally, too!
The unique challenge with men is that they are people who desire physical intimacy and romantic affection but are without the strategies and tools in order to satisfy them.
What’s frustrating is hearing the shame, insults, and guilt hurled at men without offering any solutions aside from platitudes such as, “be yourself,” or, “confidence is key.” Critikal/Penguinz is especially guilty of this.
You want men to do better and then continuously chastise men for even trying. How else does someone learn aside from trial and error? On top of not having a viable source of information to learn the social skills that would resolve much of this.
Then when women get together with men who are the complete opposite of the typically afflicted “nice guy syndrome.” It’s send mixed signals and feels like a crapshoot, which in turn creates more A-holes.
Combine that with this overarching pernicious attitude towards men from law, culture, media, and so on. It’s as if men are caught between a rock and hard place. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t.
It’s hard to empathize with a group of people (women) who are privileged with the sort of attention men want. B/c pretty privilege can take you pretty damn far. The majority of men cannot do this and have to develop a skill to receive this sort of recognition.
It’s nice to hear some level of empathy from Anita. Most gestures like this are paltry by comparison.
As for the rejection thing. Men don’t know you from a hole in the wall at first. All there is go on is how you look. The thing is the more a man is attracted to a woman the more invested they are in the outcome of the interaction. This results in men overthinking, future pacing, and hindering their ability to be confident, socially flexible, and spontaneous.
An equitable scenario would be for women to place themselves in the position of sales. Each call feels as if it’s do or die with someone who looks about as friendly as a prisoner with money and it’s the salesperson’s last chance of keeping their job and paying their bills.
That’s how it feels like for men. All. The. Time.
Isaac, when I feel burned out by the anxiety of the job, then what I do as a woman, is shift focus and self-care.
Men are offered incredible loads of insights and input on how things can work better. The whole movement of feminism is exactly about adressing "What is not working, if you looked at it from the side of the person you are unsuccessfully pursuing".
You said it yourself: Men are not well equipped to deal with these issues and hence "the lack of efficient help from men to men" is a pressing issue and not women doing their best to help, even though men are really ill equipped to listen to women (NOT by choice! It's a grave systemic issue that impacts all people equally, but within the spectrum of genders in different manner!)
Do you understand, that plenty of women have no struggle to relate to how the whole dynamic is hard on men? While many men honestly struggle to concentrate on anything but their own side of the struggle. And when we have compassion, then the thing that does NOT happen, is that the focus is shifted. On the contrary. When we have compassion, we are stuck focusing on the perspective of men or we move on to "normal life" while frequently forgetting to attend to what issues are still left to process on the side of the female partner. Because men tend to be ill equipped in this way!
We really really need you to start to understand, that you are the ones with the task to address the issue of "not helpful advice". You have to find out amongst men, why you lack helpful advice. You need to specify how and why it's not helpful and start asking more questions about these things! And it's vital that you yourselves decide to research and that you stop trying to get information about female perspectives solely from male peers!
See the difference?
--> Male peer group: Research WHAT is the problem, WHAT are the needs, WHAT are the expectations? WHAT is the assumed price for the partner for that expectation?
--> Female peers: Ask for consent to clarify questions! Have a plan to attend to your emotions when feedback triggers you (cause it will and it's your job to be ready for that), present your conclusions about things regarding the dynamic and receive more input on it.
Do you understand that women are constantly expected to do this hell load of emotional labor and "management of disregulation and confusion in men" just like you are expected to do stuff like financial labor or "labor of being the person who requests dates"?
None of them is OK. We really gotta stop and regroup and stop taking ownerships that go past 50%.
Dr.K is here to help us gather perspectives and help spot what is going on for whom. And in an upcomig step, we might head towards forming pools of helpful advice. Still, please, attend to your needs. They are your job!! When you find advice to be lacking, then talk about that! Come to HG discord and start asking more specific questions that concern your sppecific case!!! :3
@@KxNOxUTA "Men are offered incredible loads of insights and input on how things can work better. The whole movement of feminism is exactly about adressing What is not working, if you looked at it from the side of the person you are unsuccessfully pursuing."
you must be joking... it's exactly the opposite of what you wrote. that movement nowadays has nothing to do with the suffragettes of the early 1900s; now that movement systematically seeks to destroy every human being born male in western countries. accumulating more and more privileges and reducing more and more responsibilities and reciprocity in women.
The issue is Male disposability.
@@KxNOxUTA As a man I can tell you that most advice given to men who struggle with this stuff is borderline useless. Sorry but it is. It reeks of giving the most basic advice possible while trying to swat men to the side. Hell, 90% of the advice I hear is simply “go see a therapist” and nothing else, which is essentially the same as “Our movement don’t actually know how to solve these problems but maybe if you’re rich enough you can pay someone else to hear you rant about them so that we don’t have to”. It’s like trying to educate someone by simply saying “read a book”. It gets even more frustrating to hear this when you already go to therapy. Like they always assume men just aren’t trying hard enough. It’s dehumanizing and exhausting.
"It’s hard to empathize with a group of people (women) who are privileged with the sort of attention men want."
You want the attention but women don't want it, they want the top tier men's attention. Remember that we're difference.
Would you feel privileged If you only get attention from 60 year old or obese women? or would that be bothersome? that's how most pretty women view average men so getting attention from them is not a privilege. Yall preach that men and women are different but when it comes to this particular topic yall forget that fact.
"As for the rejection thing. Men don’t know you from a hole in the wall at first. All there is go on is how you look. The thing is the more a man is attracted to a woman the more invested they are in the outcome of the interaction. "
And this is where I lose sympathy for men because you were not in love, you are in lust. You are not a victim, you are just unattractive. So the prettier a woman gets, the more invisible you become. They're giving the same energy back.
"The stigma of female sexuality" part resonated with me. There's plenty more where that came from, sadly, and oftentimes comes directly from our mothers, aunts, sisters, friends. Unfortunately, we women also keep that stigma going
facts. internalized misogyny is VERY much a thing. Patriarchal norms are perpetuated by both genders. It's perpetuated by both genders and everyone suffers under it.
it's fake actually. you don't live in saudi arabia, in the west for example if you are a woman owning sex toys is considered empowering, while if a man owns them for himself it is considered a loser.
Stigmas & judgements are all around, on the women AND on men. Reality is complex. ^^
As there is stigma & judgments on women having a lof of sex ("sl*ts"), there is also a lot of stigma on men having very little sex ("rejects", losers, non-voluntary "inc*ls").
Men can also be shunned as "sl*ts", and women can also be shunned as "rejects".
If there is confusion ^^: I'm talking stereotypes and generalizations; obviously, there always are numerous exceptions to the rule.
@@manumaster1990So two wrongs make a right to you? Men being shamed for owning sex toys AND women being shamed for sleeping with many people are both true phenomenon. That's why in progressives spaces ppl cheer women on for being open about their sexual needs, bc it's not historically accepted for women to admit that they have libido too or even to be enthusiastic about sex. Ppl shame men for being sexless and that's not okay either.
@@manumaster1990 what? Do u live around any Christians. There is alot of stigma of female sexuality in the Christian community and most people r Christian or has a lot of Christian culture in them
Fun thing I’ve learned from experience is that even if my feelings are not mutual, so long as the others don’t feel uncomfortable about still maintaining friendships…sometimes that’s made the friendship waaaay better. Now I don’t need to worry about some feelings getting in the way of friendship.
I think a key misunderstanding here is that these feelings aren’t always there when you first meet. I have met girls before that I was totally platonic with and became friends. Then as I got to know them a bit better, I started to appreciate them more and developed romantic feelings. There was no ulterior motive there and I wasn’t hiding my feelings because I legitimately wasn’t interested in them at first. It was only over time that I started to think about them in that way. I think in this type of situation it’s best to acknowledge those feelings and have a conversation with your friend about it as soon as possible
I think the experience that Anita talks of is different from that. To speak on my own experience, I've had people be genuine friends with me and then express interest in me and it be okay even though I didn't reciprocate, but I've also had men who make it clear that they weren't friends with me because they actually enjoyed my company. They just acted like my friend (at least in the latter half of the friendship) because they thought if they do X Y and Z then it will end in a relationship or sex. It's very clear the difference once you experience both. It's very different when someone stops being friends with you because they find no value in you once they find out they'll never get sex from you versus vocalizing that they need to pull back from the friendship in order to manage their romantic feelings. I have my own experience being "friendzoned" and we just had to talk about it and I had to pull back to set boundaries so that we can still be friends, because I still wanted to be his friend and wanted him to be in my life. Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I worded that well.
1:05:56 The statement was in essence "You're not afraid of [romantic] rejection, so it's not surprising that you have trouble empathizing with men who are afraid of rejection", and then she starts talking about doctors and teachers in an attempt to validate not empathizing with that specific group because that group does not deserve understanding nor empathy. At one point in the interview she said something along the lines of "Men don't view women as people, I however view men as individuals" which is clearly her projecting her own attitude towards the opposite gender, she probably *wants* to view men as individuals but clearly doesn't or even has the energy to attempt to do so.
I appreciate Anitas courage to talk about this.
I find her stimming positively relatable.
12:25 Yeah, the reason is called evolution with its economy of reproduction.
_edit:_ After listening to the entire discussion I've reached the conclusion that this woman is utterly clueless regarding why men or women tend to act/think in some ways - it's as if she's never read or listened to something about evolutionary biology & psychology. She's spewing Feminist talking points from at least 10 yrs ago.
No, absolutely not! She is so clueless about what rejection is! Rejection is not the same thing as resistance. When she bought flowers for a guy and he didn't like the flowers, that was called resistance. He rejected her flowers, not her unspoken proposal. He resisted her advances. Someone not continuing a conversation due to lack of interest is not the same thing as rejecting a proposal to go on a date. It's just not. I remember someone being all mysterious trying to date me being anonymous and sending me a gift and I didn't know who it was. The person probably thought I wasn't interested in her. You might even say that I resisted her advances. But I didn't even know what her intentions were at the time, so I didn't reject her. I didn't even get the chance to reject her. Women do not give themselves a chance to get rejected, they don't give men a chance to reject them. They are apparently just as terrified of rejection as we are, and yet they still don't experience it as much as we do.
I think the fear rejection also has to do with the fact that approaching women especially when we are young is basically putting our self in a state of emotional voulnerability we arent put into before in our life. Having to suddenly interface with the world in a way that you have been told not to ( emotionally ) is really hard. We are told that we should supress emotion and we are also told that the one person you can emotionally be open with is your romantic partner. It creates a no win situation where if you want a romantic partner you have to open up emotionally but if you do and that gets rejected you are devistated because finally you opened up to someone and you got hurt. It’s absolutely not fair to blame women for this. We need to stop raising children in a way that stunts their ability to engage emotionally with the world.
this ^^^^^ omg this comment, thank you. Exactly. What you're describing are patriarchal norms and it's literally a case of emotional arrested development for boys and men. Like that is so fucked up we just gaslight boys and men into just not having emotions which is not how that works. It's a form of emotional and psychological detachment from their own selves. I don't understand why "emotion" is even a charged or bad word in the first place, like it's literally part of the human condition. There's nothing inherently bad or good about emotions, they just are.
You didn’t miss man.
I feel like the men she is talking about are the 3% of weirdos in her chat and they do not represent the average bloke on the street trying to be a decent guy. The assumptions she is making are partly just insulting. This Interview left me somewhat hopeless.
Probably why she doesn't fear the average guy on the street just as much. A lot of my fears of men went away when I left the idea of gaming college behind as well as leaving a very archaic church. But I still feel the fear now and then when I'm in certain environments. But most of the time I don't feel any creepy guys leering at me with hidden intentions. It's very much where you go
Friendzone/Fuckzone nonsense. 😕
I used to think like Anita. Because it’s sad to lose a friend, when they have unrequited romantic feelings for you. It’s easy to feel angry. But falling for someone isn’t a bad thing to do! And if it’s unrequited, breaking off the friendship is probably healthy. Sure it’s sad, but it’s no one’s fault.
@@Dimitris_Half yes, obv if someone rejects you, don’t be an arsehole about it!
@@Dimitris_Half were any of them acting like they were entitled to it?
@@Dimitris_Half let me ask you this.. if 20 men and women lived in jungle as tribe and men share everything with tribe , like they hunt for the tribe and protect from outside tribes, arent they entitled to womens romance in their tribes ? which is the only thing they offer. they cant fight as good as you and lacking in other areas. isnt it rude if men provide their services freely but women dont provide theirs, withhold to gain leverage and benefits for themselves within the tribe? i mean logical thing is to separate them and they should fend for themselves. friendzone is the same logic. its a unfair exchange of services. tbh this applies to the country.
@@Dimitris_Half your generation confuses wanting something with being entitled to it. I want a million dollars, I'm not entitled to it. Wanting a relationship with someone is not the same as feeling entitled to having a relationship with someone. Words matter.
@@ShermanWilliamsVideo yes you are entitled to it.. unless you are being politically correct..its unequal exchange of services
if 20 men and women lived in jungle as tribe and men share everything with tribe , like they hunt for the tribe and protect from outside tribes, arent they entitled to womens romance in their tribes ? which is the only thing they offer. they cant fight as good as you and lacking in other areas. isnt it rude if men provide their services freely but women dont provide theirs, withhold to gain leverage and benefits for themselves within the tribe? i mean logical thing is to separate them and they should fend for themselves. friendzone is the same logic. its a unfair exchange of services. tbh this applies to the country. women want mens attention and men want to smash. friendzone gives them what they want but withhold what you want.
She's missing the point on couple of occasions. E.g. I personally reject majority of people after seeing them behave in certain way or after hearing 2-3 sentences they say. If I were wrong more often than not I would stop behaving like that but it works extremely well. Ignoring the first impression usually turns out to be mistake.
1:08:38 For someone who says she suffered from social anxiety, she has no empathy whatsoever. Pretty women are intimidating to most men, especially guys who are awkward to begin with. Lusting after your body has nothing to do with it. Some people, for example, are on the autism spectrum and can't even look people in the eye regardless of gender.
She judges a man's shyness as an attack on her right to be perceived as an equal? Pure misandrist paranoia.
It was a poor take but I feel like she probably just misconstrued herself, I mean cmon you can’t just claim she’s a psychopath based on that 😂
I just want to speak on Anita's thoughts on a guy across the room working up the courage to talk to her. The way she explains it, it just sounds so blissfully emotionally straight forward. For me at least pretty women elicit a strong feeling of apprehension in me that I have a psychologically have a need to overcome. To then approach a woman despite the fear elicits a feeling of triumph over my internal state. It's almost a form of therapy to work through deep feelings of inadequacy in the presence of women. And to that extent it is not fair to treat women as therapeutic objects to overcome my deep-seeded personal issues.
Isnt it normal to not wanna be friends with someone who rejected you?
I mean I don't wanna be friends, I wanna be together but since you don't want that this relationship is done. Would be to hurtful to be with a girl you actually like knowing nothing can happen between you.
Guys aren't entitled to romantic relationship with a girl just because he likes her
And
Girls aren't entitled to a friendship with a guy who they have rejected.
Exactly. The funny thing is that she doesn't understand how entitled she is.
It's like if someone who you trusted and felt close to came to you one day all of a sudden and said "I want you to build me a house". And when you said no (and also how did they even get the idea), they'd say you no longer can be friends. Like sure, you're not entitled to their friendship, but also WTF? What house? There was never talk of any house. And now you're losing a friend over it. What the hell?
I agree, it's better to cut it off than staying in a friendship with unmet needs. The frustration will just boil over for the rejected person, go find someone else you'll have a more fulfilling relationship with.
entitlement is one thing and pretending is another. She was clear from the jump to her male friends that they're just friends and they accepted it but stopped because they can't pretend to be her friend anymore. Now that's on you.
How i'd put into words the difference between different genders on rejection is that men will assume they themselves are the problem and the girls will assume that the circumstance is the problem. And for men it's not only women, it's also high status men. If I go talk to a high status man and he rejects me as a potential friend for example. When going up to an attractive woman and getting rejected, the conclusion is that I'm just not high status enough or good looking enough and that thought is scary and does bad things to my confidence. So when getting rejected enough many times, those thoughts, through my own confidence and sense of worth, will further make me think that I'm getting rejected because of me and not because of just bad timing or something. I believe that women too get rejected but not with enough consistency for it to spiral like this.
Yah that's why I like it when women don't use a flat-out rejection either saying I don't want anything right now or I'm already in a relationship. Otherwise it often feels like the women rejecting me are saying I know almost nothing about you but what I can see is so bad it's not even worth the effort of looking deeper.
On the idea of fear of rejection, a lot could be tied to the fact that men are the ones who initiates in most times. usually to strangers. And when you see a stranger, looks is all you can go for. So essentially a no feels like "you dont look like a person worthy of my time" which can trigger all kinds of insecurities.
Another thing is that I found it wierd hw she seemed mad, or atleast upset, about guys asking how to be better with women. As if wanting someone you like to like you back is somehow a bad thing.
Yeah that part low-key frustrated me. She talked earlier about how male sexuality is unhealthily repressed, and then shamed and labeled guys as horny animals for expressing their sexuality by flirting with strangers
She seemed confused about men "wanting to know how to talk to women", I say this because she states that you just talk to them like you would any other person and seems to think this means that men don't see women as people. The problem here is that by just talking to them like you would to any of your guy friends you are not expressing any desire to be a potential mate. Then next thing you know the woman only considers the man as a friend and nothing more leading the man to feel hurt and rejected if he actually does try putting his feelings out there and it doesn't work. Communicating friendship is different than communicating courtship.
i love the lectures but this style of video is where dr ks channel really shines. more like this pls!
Thank You for bringing the interviews back!! Combining real world examples/issues with the wisdom of Dr. K is good content.
The bridging the gap and jail example is excessive. At jail I know I'm around a bunch of people that don't care about breaking laws. As a COMPLETELY STRAIGHT man, I've been to LGBT+ bars and spaces with friends and had other men show attraction to me or attempt to buy me drinks. It's awkward at times but overall not that bad. If respectful, it's even oddly flattering despite the COMPLETE lack of attraction. I imagine it happening in jail would be MUCH WORSE. Also in that example I think many men are more fearful of the attack on their traditional masculinity then the sense of general unwanted attention itself.
I percieved what Anita said about feeling rejection is that she feels rejection when it is personal rejection. As in - You know me, my personality, my quirks, my mannerisms, my other friends/family etc. You are rejecting who I am... But when a man asks a woman out and they don't know each other its only based on looks or if they are busy or not in that moment. It isn't like they are getting personally rejected for who they are as a person.
Working up courage to go out and ask and having it not work out is still discouraging. Happens enough times and I’m sure any guy would start to feel like shit. What else is a normal human brain supposed to think when the only common factor is them in those situations? Rationally they know it isn’t them. But it sure feels like it.
But then why do so many people here feel so hurt for not getting personally rejected?
@@uh4875 I agree. She's a very strong person and I admire that. I think most people are a bit more sensitive when it comes to this though. So we feel a bit down on ourselves for a little bit. We will be rejected many times before we find someone we date and that's not going to change and I don't think that's a problem. We feel rejected when we apply to a hundred jobs and don't get a single one, even if we got a couple interviews. We feel rejected when friends flake last minute on plans. We feel rejected when we ask someone out and they say no (for any reason). Maybe we don't all feel it to the same degree for each of these things, but speaking from my experience and talking a lot with my friends, these all seem common. So I think it's important to practice a response to rejection. If you're someone who gets very hurt by rejection, romantic or not, I think it's important to admit that and think about what makes you feel valued. For me, I look at my old scrapbooks, yearbooks, certificates (if it's from job hunting and I hear nothing back ToT), and I'll talk to my mom or grandma. If I know I might feel rejected later, like after asking someone out or after an interview, I actually plan in advance to get dinner with friends for that night because just by talking and laughing and hanging out with them I feel valued again. So if someone is hurt by rejection I think it's important to find what helps you. There are too many things out of our control that can make us feel that way, so we need to find ways to cope.
@@corneliahanimann2173 that's a good question and I wonder that too. How many times have we been told by our parents/guardians "not right now, I'm busy." When we approached them with something we thought was exciting? They didn't say "I don't love you enough right now kid, this is more important to me than you. You wait."
But it can feel like that. Why? And why is it so different depending on who you talk to?
For me, it wasn't that extreme, I didn't feel horrible if this situation happened as a child, but I did feel deflated and disappointed. I felt somewhat rejected.
What I'm trying to say is that people can feel rejected even when it is nothing to do with them personally in numerous scenarios, not just asking someone out. If someone is aware they feel personally rejected even though they know it isn't about them (as in someone was just unavailable), can they figure out a way to cope? Why do so many people not have that? Can they find this same response in these other scenarios, or is dating a special case scenario? I think dealing with non-personal rejection is a bigger thing than just when you ask out someone new. My other reply talks more about that...
I actually disagree. She is bias in supporting her own ideas if they are to benefit her, but she shows no empathy (more or less inexperience) she’s very divisive, she doesn’t unite. She’s very biased that “MEN ARE WRONG AND WOMEN ARE RIGHT.” But Anita fails to understand men are also victims in this too. No one is born to be a predator. Anita has been conditioned and man I could imagine what a struggle that is not be diagnosed with Tourette’s and the stigma Anita had to face, that is Anita’s strength and empowerment. BUT! She is also forcing that narrative in everyone. “If I can do it, YIU-CAN-DO-IT-TOO!” That is not how it works and that will cause a division.
I think I know what is the problem with the her understanding. When you have negative outlook on yourself and it's hard then to ask someone out. Every NO you get is the confirmation of what you think of yourself. That's why it hurts so much and you feel rejected, unattractive, you think you will not find anyone ever. Probably she has healthy self-image and combined with hi maturity is why it's bothering her less than men.
I find it funny that Anita speaks of empathy and that men need to have more empathy for women and yet during this entire video her hatred and lack of empathy for men is so apparent. Not even trying to understand what rejection is like for most men and what most men go through in this read was telling enough on the type of argument she was trying to purpose.
She won't concede a single push back from the doc. She doesn't realise how much of a hypocrite she is.
Whenever he tries to get a single admission or attempt to see the male point of view she sheds the most negative light on how the man would be feeling or that he only wants a root when approaching woman.
Like she feels like a sex object right? Theres a heap of men who would only want a loving relationship and are nervous and she equates it to them being creepy and only wanting roots. It’s just absurd. Such deep rooted feminist thinking and talking points. Its kind of infuriating.
She’s saying oh I’ve experienced rejection, why can’t men just get over it… I mean cmon. There’s guys out here who have never even been hugged or felt a loving embrace ffs. She cant come close to that. Women and men aren’t exactly the same. We have different sets of issues and expects empathy for her constant male attention and the threat of being violated but literally craps on men at the same time for their different but equally shitty situations
This is like a super intense version of main character syndrome, and being attractive and popular is a terrible way to extrapolate on what the human experience is like more than like 1% of the time.
She’s way too aggressive and confident that *her* way is the only right way and interpretation of interpersonal and inter-gender interactions.
She was shy and just let others dictate her world, and this seems like an overcorrection by a lot.
People use the term friend too loosely.
I suspect that the type of friendships that Anita wants to have with men are very emotionally close. Honestly, that’s not always appropriate. Better boundaries = better friendships.
"My definition of a friendship overlaps with your definition of romantic engagement so clearly it's your fault and sucks to be you" there must be a saner middle ground here....
@@ragemachinist like valuing a friendship that isn’t so intense and intimate, yeah
Nicely put, thanks for the insight.
I would definitely agree that it's not as simple and clearcut as Anita puts it/her experiences. Responsability for this isn't 100% on the man's shoulders, even though he SHOULD make his intentions clear from the get-go (which takes confidence and social sophistication with male/female dynamics, which is something that is never taught but men are magically supposed to know). But having intimate friendship with the opposite sex is fraught with blurry lines and unclear boundaries potential (for both sides, although it's usually the men that tend to be more intimacy-starved and so "fall" for her).
@@ZapatosVibes yup! I agree
She says she's been rejected for her tourettes a lot and yet cannot fathom how you could reject someone without actually knowing them? According to herself, she has experienced rejection of people that didn't even know her and did not want to get to know her over and over in her youth.
It's a mess... She made some good points, but there are inconsistencies. She's also feeling hurt and rejected by the friends who "fuck zoned" her. Yet they should not feel rejected and hurt because they had feelings for her... Eeehh...
When someone rejects "you" for your disability without knowing you they aren't actually rejecting YOU they are rejecting your disability. It's part of you sure but it's not You.
At around 1:14:39 she asks how can you reject someone before knowing them. And I think the answer should have been, that rejecting someone immediately is rejecting the outer appearance and not the inner self. If someone knew you then rejected you, they rejected the true you. So it’s sort of like a defense mechanism.
I really hope Anita is willing to come do another interview. She is genuinely so insightful and I learn a lot from her discussions
I watched all their interviews in a row. The first two were great. A smart, intelligent girl who talks, listens, learns and grows. The previous episode was different. Anita was doing a stream. She went on multi-minute tirades about how society is bad, roommates steal her underwear, and friends have a hidden agenda to manipulate her into a relationship. She felt victimized. When Dr. K pointed out that there was a pattern in her and her mother's lives, so she had the opportunity to make a difference, Anita became really angry, saying that the doctor was blaming her. From that point on, he stopped talking to her on such a deep level.
Anita's problem is that her horizons are not as broad as she thinks they are. She makes a lot of assumptions about what others think. When talking about guys she simplifies their inner lives and uses templates. She selects facts from history that suit her, ignoring those facts that contradict it. She selects toxic statements from her chat as the voice of society. She does the same with the studies she selects to support her thesis. And the thesis is that she is a victim of manipulation, that society is systemically unfair to women, and she won't change anything, because it's not her fault, it's not the family pattern, it's the pheromones.
Yes, the previous episode and the first part of this one were somewhat unpleasant to watch. I like her. I really do. I'm glad that from the middle of the recording she stopped making her long theses, went back to talking to K, and as she admitted, she learned something new. I hope to see her open to conversation again in the next episode.
@@MM_Legacy I agree 100%. It's obvious that she's been hurt so much in so many different ways that she fails to see that there's bad, sick people and that there's normal ones. When I listened to the part about women being degraded using sexuality against them or prostitutes / porn stars getting murdered I was like "who the hell does this?!" but the way she talked about it made it seem like she almost believes everyone's capable of violence of that degree when in reality the majority of people are repulsed just by thinking of these acts
@@MM_Legacy This.
For myself, the act of beginning a conversation is the most difficult part. It has nothing to do with how others will perceive. I have intentionally so few friends, and I don’t talk about women to them or family until I’ve been dating someone a while is promising.
The issue I have in handling rejection, is that I don’t feel worthwhile to much of anyone outside my parents. People historically haven’t prioritized putting time and effort into me. So I just don’t bother (that and I know women get hit on undesirably enough). The only thing I’ve been able to do is some very sparse speed dating or other events like that where the other side is intentionally there. So the risk for me in this scenario is putting another vote on the “another person doesn’t see enough in you” side of the already touching the floor scale.
I just don’t have the self esteem to be confident in believing someone is looking for me. Confidence comes from experience, which turns out to be a catch twenty-two for people who care how others perceive their own character.
Ah I don't know if it helps but thank you for you concern for us, very tired women, it sound sincere, even though it doesn't seem to help you anyhow, but still thank you
I don't know if it helps or not, but I don't look at dating as "I hope someone out there accepts me" so much as "I hope someone out there is right for me". I don't really see someone turning down a date as somehow my fault or some kind of flaw or defect with me. We're just not a fit. Hell, I originally asked my husband out and he declined, at the time it wasn't meant to be. Later we were in a better place to date and things worked out. Sometimes people are just not in the right place or not the right person at the time. I think approaching dating with the mindset of "I just want someone to say yes" actually sets you back. It gives the experience extra pressure and other people feel that as desperation. They may not feel that you actually are interested in them so much as you want someone at all, even if that isn't the case, and most people don't want to feel like they are seen as "you'll do" you know? I know it may seem like an "easier said than done" sort of thing but I hope a different perspective helps a little bit.
I relate so much to this! And I don't know what to do about it... going for online dating or a similar avenue seems to make sense at first. At least people are there for the express purpose of dating, so I don't need to feel bad for hitting on someone. But it's terribly exhausting, traditional gender roles are still somewhat expected, and nobody I met from online dating ended up being interested in me in the end, just adding to the feeling of being an uninteresting person little by little. It just sucks, and it often feels like there is no way out other than just pure luck
@@Alron222 Online dating is terrible. Watch Dr K's video on it. They don't actually want you to find a date because then you won't use the service anymore.
I think you got the part about confidence the wrong way around. Confidence doesn't really come from experience, but a lack of confidence does (at least in the case of personal interactions). Everyone is born confident; it's our experiences that chip away our confidence (i.e. have you ever seen an infant struggle with insecurities?). A lack of confidence is simply learned behaviour, and as with anything that can be learned, it can also be unlearned. Try asking yourself the question "why do I believe that I'm not good enough?" or "why do I believe that I'm not worthy of other people's time or affection?" and the answer will shine a light on the beliefs that are actively holding you back. In order to reflect on it, it can be helpful to write down the answer and read it back at a later point. Hope this helps.
the rejection thing i think has some to do with the undersexualization of men, like "this girl is about to open up or get creeped out based solely on my appearance & how i approach her" so it's a blow to a part of our ego that's already at a deficit. I think that evolutionary biology explains a lot more of what goes on in our heads than we want to admit.
Should people have to be sexualized in order for them to feel good about themselves? Should we just be respectful of people and see them as people instead of potential notches on the bedpost? Have we turned people (women) into a personal commodity to flaunt one's ability to be desired and wanted? I think "sex sells" advertisement campaigns has gone to another level of "sex sells the image of desirability" for people on a personal level which turns women (both in sense of body count and also visual aesthetic of attractiveness) into a form of social currency. I think there's a way of not seeing women (and men) as objects to look at but as fully formed people with their own desires that may not align with ours. Women just literally want to be seen and understood regarding the fact that no matter what we are sexualized. Men can be sexualized too, but they don't walk around feeling like people around them are constantly trying so hard to see through their clothes. I would desperately love to be able to bend over in a grocery store to grab my ragu and not feel anxious that I'm being sexualized (or someone will be bold enough it just touch me- which has happened) while I'm just shopping for groceries. It's so hard to grasp how exhausting it is to constantly feel dehumanized through sexualization at every turn. Men don't want to be sexualized, they want to feel desired and appreciated, and that's the problem. I feel like men don't understand the difference and that's why we are in this current dystopia.
@@sparklyninja12 So, what is the difference? How can one look at a potential approach and think to themselves, "it's okay to do this because it's not sexualizing"? Isn't the power to decide whether or not one is sexualized solely with the person being approached? And how can one act in the absence of that kind of understanding of what someone else will feel about the approach? Because I can assure you, there ARE people who will see any approach as sexualizing, regardless of the intention.
Also, on a personal level, I absolutely want to be sexualized, I remember back when I was in grad school I was bending over in the grocery store in much the same way you described and got groped by a mentally disabled young woman. It's one of my most treasured memories.
@@myboatforacar The reason why most men don't have anything against being sexualized is because you arn't shamed for being sexual. Women who have had more than a few partners, hell even more than just one, we're slutshamed and considered low quality, used up etc.
@@ChrissyCat87 I would agree with you if this was 20 years ago but guys nowadays are definitely shamed for being sexual by certain people, though the key difference is that unlike women they’re not shamed for being sexualised. What I mean is that men being sexualised by women or the media, like hollywood actors, don’t get shamed for it, but guys (usually unattractive, socially awkward guys) are definitely shamed for expressing their sexuality or what they find attractive (and sometimes in ways that women aren’t). For example, an ugly man wearing skimpy clothes will be seen almost exclusively as “gross” or “creepy” whereas a woman in the same situation would at least be seen as “empowered” within certain social circles. Same goes for a guy openly discussing his turns ons and turns offs, which is usually seen as “pervy” or demeaning to women who don’t fit his criteria, whereas a woman doing the same thing within a socially-progressive circle may be considered expressive, confident and honest for voicing a preference. I’ll say yeah you’re absolutely right that women get shamed for being sexualised more than men, but in terms of sexuality in general I find there’s more double standards on both sides that no one wants to admit.
@@ChrissyCat87 I think that plays a part, but I also think it's because of the fact the sexualization of women is just so culturally ingrained that most men just don't think of themselves as very sexy, at all. I think a lot of dudes like the idea of being sexualized because whereas women have had to deal with unwanted sexualization for, well just history in general, men just haven't. It's like men are dying of thirst in a desert and women are drowning in the ocean.
When Dr K mentions that a lot of men are decent men the eye roll "if you say so" type expression Anita gave bugs me. I cannot tell if its because of her T or if she was emoting that she doesn't agree but isn't willing to argue the point.
Everytime I have seen some Anita content made in past 2 years it reeks with casual misandry.
Genuine question: if someone doesn't want more friends, and they just want a partner, how are they supposed to do that? If they make their intentions clear from the start, they are considered to only care about looks and that's bad. But if they get to know someone first and then ask, they are f**kzoning that person, and that's also bad.
You communicate the intend to know them better, you communicate your feelings/intentions after a few actual conversations at least. I mean, if you actually want a partner, not a fuck, you yourself would want to get to know the person first a little bit, wouldn't you?
How well did people know her when she was still worried about her nose? She hated her nose but did anyone who knew her actually hate her nose? Where did the trauma come from if rejection can't be imagined, or from someone you don't know?
While I understand her view of the friend zone, I feel that she's lumping in all "friendzoned" men with total jerks. There are a lot of genuine guys out there who make a friend with a female and develop feelings with said friend unintentionally. They don't want to ruin the friendship or are afraid of being emotionally open so they don't say anything, but their feelings of attraction become stronger and stronger as they grow closer to this friend that isn't attracted back to them. We certainly need to teach our boys to be more open so that they can communicate their feelings easier so they don't put themselves in impossible and unfair situations to their lady friends.
Good luck Anita! May your samskaras be digested and may you have your space of joy with relationships that you deserve. And thank you for talking about these here, hopefully this leads to better understanding amongst everyone. 🙏🏻
What you said about taking big bites of burgers makes no sense. Its basically like saying that exercising does not alter your physical appearance. Taking big bites(especially in early years of life) does change your facial structure just as mouth breathing changes your facial structure. What we do with our bodies matters and affects the development of your bodies.
Even how much and the way we sit during the day changes our physical appearance.
This conversation was so enlightening the perspective of Sweet Anita made me understand so much in regard of aproaching girls and rejection and how ugly it can feel to them that I go to them whit a whole lot of fear or anxiety because I'm trying to get something out of them (wheter conciously or unconciously) , in this case a date. But the fact that I´m feeling such an intens pressure for some one whom I don´t know a thing about and who doesn´t Know me , KNOW makes no sense to me. There is so much brillance in this conversation but that part just clicked so hard in my mind. It is always an interesting and content packed conversation when Dr. K talks to Annita, It's so cool!
Fairly frustrated by this interview. Not really sure why. I felt like it wasn't much of a conversation and more like a lecture about what it's like to be a woman and how much that sucks.... thats cool but what made these kinds of interviews good was how they dived into the individual person's experiences and thier own perspectives. Instead this was a wierd conversation about other people in the general case (men and women as a group)
@@rulingstone123 wow get triggered much?
btw ever think that you might be the problem here? the judgement is just oozing out of your comment. you literally dont know anything about me, but since im presenting as a male, you assume the worst.
she said a lot of sweeping statements that apply broadly, and didnt bring much of her own personal perspective into things. meanwhile the other interviews dive deep into the personal details of the person being interviewed.
just compare this one to the trump supporter interview and youll see what i mean. Or the therapy gecko one. both were great.
the bar to measure against here is: can I get this information from anywhere on the internet? This video here was not really bringing anything that new to the table, just to a new audience. this channel has done better than that in the past.
@@rulingstone123 point out one sentence from my 2 comments that are saying that her experiences do not exist. go on. do it.
read what I wrote again, and youll notice I AM ASKING FOR HER TO SHARE HER PERSONAL EXPERIENCES. SHE DID NOT SHARE ENOUGH. THAT IS THE COMPLAINT.
@YourMajesty you know what the problem is here? You are trying to tell me what I am thinking and what the subtext is behind my comments as if you somehow know my mind better than I do. And you literally have never met me before. It's one comment and all of a sudden you know what's going on. Maybe there's someone in your life that is like this, but don't put that on me.
That's the same shit Anita was doing in this video. Talking about what the guys are all thinking about as if she knows. Dr K tried to get her to talk more about that and she just blew past it.
But that's a huge fucking problem. You don't know what strangers have going on in their heads. The sooner you accept that the sooner your relationships with other people will improve, and I'm not just talking romantic.
That's exactly what was frustrating me about this video as a whole. Don't tell me what men think and how they treat people. Tell me what you think and how people treat you. Its a video about you.
And yeah, her comments about rejection and the complete lack of empathy she displayed made me really fucking uncomfortable. The idea that a guy approaching you at a bar only wants your body is another one. I personally have a lot of bullshit going on in my head when it comes to my fear of intimacy. It's not easy getting out of my head to try to get out there and find someone to ultimately have kids with. And the idea of the other person being all judgemental and unempathetic is triggering AS FUCK. Jesus I hope I don't end up with someone like her. But I probably won't since this whole fear of intimacy thing goes too deep anyway.... fuck it why am I wasting time here.
@YourMajesty
> don't tell me how men think and what men do to people. Tell me what you think and what men did to you.
It's a relatively minor nitpick, but its still what frustrates me with the video.
Not saying she didn't experience this stuff. Just pointing out what I didn't like about the vid.
Watch the other interviews I mentioned, therapy gecko was a great one. Trump supporter too. The first incel one as well.
A lot of conversations about women and men or women vs men are generalized, on both sides. I agree that that’s not helpful but we need to remember the things Anita specifically has gone through to develop such a deep concrete interpretation of (some) men’s behavior.
As a man that always had to defend having women friends, I really appreciate Anita saying what she said. I even cried a few times when she described how she felt when a friend told her that their friendship was a waste of time. Also, men, we need to get better at complimenting each other
I wish scientists would clone men like you. Seriously, You are needed. Thank you for treating us like people
@@somabalestra1131 and thank you for the kind words! I hope we all can make the world a little more compassionate and kind