Hey Kyle... You're mostly right here. Elevated is not exactly like "from above", its a close compromise when you have no-choice at all. I too have SVS Elevs x4, I agree that they sounded weak at ear-level for the reasons you mention: too low, locatable, small, far away etc etc My compromise was to put them up on stilts (2 ft high speaker stands on top of my towers) which gave me more height-locatable sound, yet allowed some diffuse quality which mimics an array of height speakers for things like thunder. You hear thunder at a "corner" vs a single speaker, that moves to a central phantom location as its transitioning to the next corner. There's more of a corner location effect, vs "discreet"-speaker location effect. Atmos isn't always discreet from what I'm hearing/ reading. I now get both height & semi-difuse quadrants, all in this particular compromise. Can't wall/ceiling mount in my unit. Its the best of both worlds as there is separation between lower bed layer drivers and upper Atmos drivers by 3 ft. Atmos layer is now at 5 ft mark in my 8ft ceiling room. Again the upper speakers now sound at-height, and are not too locatable so it sounds like 6 Atmos or > speakers, vs just the 4 corners. Try this experiment, mount your Atmos enableds high up ( even on either wall, if no towers) , but point at the ceiling to add that multi speaker array "feel". You might discover you like it too. Peace.
Just wanted to say thank you. My system has never sound as good as it does right now after watching your calibration video going back in and tweaking things. The sound is unbelievable. I have a 7.2.4. All Klipsch reference with a Pioneer elite sc-Lx 704 and I cannot be more happy with it so thanks again
Your experience flies in the face of a lot of professional sound critique articles on upfiring speakers. A few conclude they are just shy of in-ceiling units, and many find the bounced effect more realistic. Even the Dolby Installation Guidelines state that the upfiring effect is often more immersive. and more satisfying Sound does not bounce around sporadically, as you suggest. It travels along very defined geometric paths. If you've ever test-positioned absorbing sound panels along walls, you would well aware of how distinct and predictable those paths are that sound reflections take. It is as predictable as banking a pool ball. As long as the angle of the speaker, the ceiling height/composition, and distance to the listener are correct, the Atmos effect WILL immerse you. Flat, residential height, drywall ceilings are perfect reflectors. The subtle dispersion effect is often more realistic than a ceiling speaker (especially an angled ceiling unit) hitting you square in the face, giving away it's position. This is a great video for getting thought going. EDIT: if you have popcorn ceilings as some have pointed out, it may disburse the sound too much and make the effect difficult or impossible to achieve.
The Elevations are not designed to be upfirers, as they don't have Dolby's HRTF built into their design. They could be used that way with Audyssey since it can actually add the frequency changes in with EQ if a speaker is designated as Dolby enabled, but ARC and other auto-EQs don't do that to my knowledge.
I tried a set on my marantz 8015 with my calibration mic on an actual tripod where the tripod was place at each person's seat. Audyssy calibrated and they sound almost as good as my 4 in ceiling down firing speakers. I tried a set of the klipsch 800 series eith atmos built in and I tried a set of kef up firing atmos and klipsch. They each did very well. Another thing is speaker placement. This guys in this video his tow is off and they are way to close to the side walls. His room is too small. Sorry but if your going to cram all that stuff into a small room don't expect it to sound good. About the only thing he did right was the foam on the walls to get rid of standing waves.
Upfiring speakers vs inceiling/front height Atmos placement is a minor problem compared to having your left speaker pushed right up against a sidewall, while the right side has a few ft to its sidewall. This will really mess up your stereo image/width and phantom center
The workaround would be to slightly move the speakers about 6"-8" in and raise the up 2 - 2.5 ft with all the speakers on a platform ( may be and old tvstand/center), get a back projection screen or one that will allow sound through it, bringing down the new one lower like you have it in the movie houses. Remembering to remove the girls from your speakers . The only problem is you won't have a setup to look at when you're listening to music. It would disappear behind the screen. The plus is that it will be more realistic and all placement of speakers would be on par with your trying to acieve for the atmos speakers and the speaker imaging coming from behind the screen all-in-one with a very little damage and work.
PS After all that, I would go a little more crazy with it by going up another size on the screen with a panoramic screen or keeping the ratio with the next size up just moving back the projector to fill it up .
My vaulted cieling is too high, and the front wall is too far, so the best thing I did was set up some satellite speakers on the side walls as close to 45 degrees above, left, and right as possible. First I only set up front heights, and it already sounded like it was coming from pretty high, and I loved it! Next, I had another pair of the same satellite speakers and did the exact same setup again but for the rear heights. I only have a 7 ch receiver so I wired the left top heights in parallel and the right top heights in parallel. That seriously made the height immersion significantly better! Now all the height stuff feels like it's directly above me! I know that's not safe for the impedance but those speakers have a very small wattage rating and I don't listen to stuff too loud anyways so that's not a big deal in this case. Plus if I ever upgrade to a 9 ch, then I'll already have the speakers set up correctly.
Upfiring can be QUITE convincing...if everything about the whole setup is absolutely perfect! The science is sound (no pun intended), it's just the window of success is too small for 98% of people to enjoy it which is not what's is communicated to them.
Yeah, but you forgot about the wife factor so no speakers on the ceiling or wall. I'm using upfiring sitting on top of my entertainment unit (11 feet high) cranked up and they work okay given that I have a pitched 18-foot ceiling. Honestly, I even don't want speakers hanging on the wall and in-ceiling would be great but I don't have a crawl space and I'm not ready to do a wall-wired fishing expedition yet. So I'm thinking about adding another pair on top of my rear surrounds to switch to a 5.2.4. I have a Marantz SR5015 (which I love for music) and will experiment with setting the speaker/amp assign setup from "Front Height" to "Top Middle" for fun.
The height of the ceiling is important, plus the hardness of the surface of ceiling, and of course the angle of the upfiring speakers, related to the distance ofyour listeni position. Then you also have toing of the front speakers...in the end a lot of factors that play a role. Two speakers also can not produce a sense of location of height objects (this is partially simulated by your surround speakers, but it is a bit weird).
I think more r&d needs to be done on top firing speakers. I think what companies are doing are just sticking one of their common drivers used on their tower/bookshelves rather than one more directional and efficient. Hitting the ceiling will diffuse the sound a lot but if you have a more directional speakers then it will diffuse less. I think using "pro" speakers like the kinda used in concerts would probably result in better Atmos top firing sound
True, but then it restricts the listening position that much more as well. That’s the benefit of a ceiling speaker is that is can come directly from above and have a horizontal and vertical spread
Hire a professional to do it. And if you don't have the money to do that. Then use specific Atmos speakers that are designed to go at the very top of the front and rear walls. Flush at the top corner edge of the ceiling, much better than the bouncy upfiring Atmos modules!
7.3.4 My Atmos are Def Tech di8r in ceiling and man I could not be happier. I have a few short videos that do sweeps around the room and I cannot hear a gap throughout. I used the angles from the Dolby sites recommendations for them all best I could with a few compromises. Thanks for the video man!
You might have noticed that even Dolby has actually gone quiet on Dolby enabled up firing speakers and to a lesser degree in ceiling. Using in ceiling also limits the use of the like of Auro 3D, which if used as an up mixer on those weak Dolby Atmos tracks is way better. The solution is to have an arrangement such as the Yamaha presence speakers but possibly on a narrower alignment than in corners as Yamaha used to espouse. It’s also important to have the HEIGHT speaker settings (don’t use TOP settings if you have the option in your AVR, unless you are using a Voice of God) and the speakers angled to your ears as if you are STANDING at your listen position. You need that so that your ear level surrounds are separated directionally from the Heights.
I think the problem you are seeing is related to our ceiling which has a texture. I am running Klipsh Atmos speakers in the up firing Atmos method and they work great. Klipsh has specific guidelines for setup and one of them "rules" is that it will not work well with stucco or textured ceilings as it deflects the sound and diminishes the effect. with that ceiling I would wall mount and do down firing height mode. Your ceiling height may also be playing a lessor role in these not working.
I have the Pioneer Elite Andrew Jones Atmos system with SVS subs and a 5.2.4 Pioneer Elite receiver and honestly I think people that have issues don’t have it tuned correctly. I get great spatial sound. Maybe not as good as in ceiling but it’s pretty impressive.
If your going to bounce the sound off of the ceiling they shouldn't be on top of tower speakers. There sitting too low at that point. Instead try mounting them higher towards the ceiling on a stand or shelf or bracket. We tried this and it worked alot better.
I recently bought a Denon Atmos HT receiver and plan on buying Atmos speakers. I live in an apartment and will wall mount them using speaker mounts which are adjustable as my stereo is in the corner of the living room. Thanks for the tips.
I'd say upfiring is a 2 out of 10, height speakers are a 6 and overhead is a 9. The issuse is Atmos sountracks tend to be weak. I actually prefer Dts Neural X upscaled from 5.1
@@HOOK_NOSE_JEW I don’t know man, I really don’t find that to be the case. Also 90% of UHD movies are Atmos. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything streaming wise use DTS:X. I don’t dislike DTS:X I just don’t find it any better or worse then Atmos.
Your ceiling material and having a fan makes a huge difference too, I have been using up-firing for a few years now and am moving to a house with with higher ceilings so I think I am going to have to have them firing down due to the higher ceiling height.
Not entirely. Sound doesn't work like all those Atmos pictures shows. It spreads out from the source. By the time sound from upwards firing speakers reach the ceiling, it has already spread out quite a bit. And not only will it spread out more on the way down, it will also lose some sound that's absorbed by the ceiling surface. The result is that the sound will just sound a bit muddled and that it's hard to truly tell where it's coming from... since by the time the ceiling-bounced sound reaches your ears, those same soundwaves are also coming from other directions and it's wide. I'm sure this is something they can resolve with tech in the future. But the tech is not quite there yet. In order for it to truly work, they'd need to be able to shoot soundwaves to the ceiling in a narrow path. I think it's impressive that it works as well as it does right now, but simulating isn't as good as real speakers just yet. Besides that, we've yet to really have a true 360 audio sound. They say Atmos is a sound bubble, but that's not really true. If that was the case, they could make it sound like something's right next to your ear, slightly further, slightly to the side, etc. They can't do that precise 3D placement of sounds yet. So proper surround sound tech still has some ways to go.
@thenonexistinghero I totally understand what you mean. Dolby Atmos greatly depends on speaker placement, and how high your ceiling is. I think that I lucked out. The ceiling in my living room is low, and my surround speakers are placed directly behind me at an angle. I've watched the star wars movies all of my life and when I say that I literally can hear an x-wing or tie fighter fly overhead from the upper left hight channel, to the rear right upper surround channel. It does work. And to add...all Dolby Atmos soundtracks are not created equal. That also depends on how the studio mixed the meta data at the studio before distribution. I'm going to suggest a few 4k movies for reference material. The Star Wars saga, all of the recent Godzilla/King Kong movies, Ready Player One, The Hobbit Trilogy, and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. The Matrix Saga, damn near all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, except for Thor Ragnarok...and many more.
@@antonioowensby8823 I've seen a few recommend movies and while it does sorta work... it mostly does when I stare at the screen. When I focus on a speaker that the sound is coming from, I can hear it coming from a speaker. That being said, I'm restricted to streaming. Many of those movies are either locked behind a paywall or don't have Atmos support for the streaming version. Some also don't have Atmos support for streaming in all regions (like Soul and Spider-Man Homecoming for Disney+). I'm not saying it doesn't work at all. Just that there's still quite a difference even in an ideal setting (I don't have an ideal setting, but there's plenty of tech RUclipsrs who do and they all pretty much say that upfiring isn't on the same level as downfiring ceiling speakers).
Some major reasons it's not working is the fact that he has multiple panels that reduce sound by absorbing it. And he has a textured ceiling which also deflects soundwave into a scattered pattern and not directly hitting the viewer. He also has a fan in the room which of that is on will disrupt the Atmos effect. This is highly unideal he even has paintings in the room which will cause the effects from Dolby Atmos to be terrible or diminished. Small Apartments are not ideal for Dolby Atmos Home Theater set ups. Because you can't have the volume high enough to enjoy the Atmos effects efficiently without neighbors complaining. This is definitely a home setup that is not professionally done and needs a lot of work.
Yeah Ive been a bit frustrated with the whole Dolby Atmos setup. I bought a pair of Pioneer upward firing Dolby Atmos speakers and then read or heard that 2 pair was best so I bought another pair. I have since replaced 1 pair and swapped for a Polk Audio S35 Center Channel and a pair of S20's to improve my front stage - Ive been trying to avoid cutting holes in the ceiling since i dont own my home....and Ive also wrestled with the placebo question. Ive also added another subwoofer which creates a nice rumble - but the atmos thing still seems to struggle at moderate volume..
In my experience, they work. And I have even bought the cheapest of them all, the small Onkyo ones. It might be that I live in a new building with build of hard concrete with a relative low sealing. But they work, maybe not pinpoint, but I got helicopters over my head.
Man I have helicopters flying over my head even with LR surrounds. No need for atmos speakers at all. I would see the main benefit from atmos for better objects location in the 3d space of your room. I think this upfiring installation may produce some sound from above but not be able to properly place objects in space as the sound is too scattered and undirected. You know the stereo effect but in 3d space..
The reason your Atmos sound bad bouncing it off the ceiling is because the speakers aren’t the correct type. The only ones that work correctly that way are concentric drivers. Otherwise your mids and highs hit your ears at different times. Go watch Andrew Jones on the Pioneer Atmos design. I think he made another set with Elac too. In order for your speakers to sound correct, they need to be up on the wall or ceiling pointing at you. Use a laser pointer to make sure your angles are correct. Most people who reflect their speakers don’t even have them reflected at the correct angles either.
I have an up firing system in my lounge of the bedroom and in-ceiling downstairs...if the point is having a total immersion...a sense of being there...then my PioneerT22As do the job...submarine creaks, bullets flying, planes overhead, roof collapses, rain, singing, etc....all sound for real...and well places me in the environment...it doesn't sound much different than my dedicated home theater.....
Damn it! I just got the Klipsch speaker sett from Costco, the tower speaker has the atmos on the top built in. So I screwed to put the high. I did get klipsch atmos pair separate, to put them beside me up high , with 9.2 receiver, trying to make 5.2.4 set up. I got low ceilings in the basement, hopefully it helps. Great video tho! Thanks buddy.👍
Is that the new one with the atmos in all 4 speakers, that you can only get from costco?. Let me know how it sounds. I was telling my friend about it, since he was looking for something like that, and he us a big klipsch fan.
@@4tothes25 I know which one talking about, they all the same. I was looking at them too. I got the one with towers, bookshelfs and center, without subwoofer. The tower is the R-625FA . Did already have a 10” klipsch sub, and 12” Velodyne . Love them both!
As much as I want Atmos this will save me a ton of money on a cheap setup now realizing that it's always best to go big or go home. So now for the time being I'll go without Atmos for probably another 10 years until I can own a place and install some good in ceiling speakers.
I agree with you on some parts, but you also have textured ceilings which is going to mess with sound waves. Just like having a ceiling fan and atmos speakers is not good, but for your situation being that far away. It would be more ideal if have height speakers than up firing.
Thank so much for the video! I almost bought some klipsch reference premiere atmos speakers til I saw this. I'm currently running a klipsch reference 5.1 setup. I have a 8ft ceiling and sit back 16ft from a 150inch screen.
your ceiling is very textured too which will really diffuse and scatter the sound a LOT more than if the ceiling was flat... that said I agree upfiring is still a big compromise either way.
i think forward facing is always going to be best if not in ceiling, as soon as they market speakers as atmos they cost 2500 bucks, when you can get equal or better hieght speakers for 900 bucks
Happy New Year! Hope all goes well in 2022! Yes to elevation speakers! I had a pair of bouncy house speakers on top of my mains when Atmos first came out and had B&W Ds6 for rear ...same results as you....then got the SVS elevation for front and since my mains are 3 feet from the wall behind them SVS tech guy said to put the front Elevation on side wall firing down about half way in room or middle of room with the B&W at the back and after doing a new calibration with this set up and the third sub behind main seating position (2 subs up front) dont really feel the need for adding a fourth sub with the third sub behind the couch ...any ways its a big improvement with action movies it is like you are in the middle of the movie and the Tanks in Fury are in your room right with you and you feel it in your seat yeah a lot better this way! Good luck with that project! Have fun!
Upfiring rears sound good in my room. But I found some Samsung surrounds with brackets in storage and mounted them to the ceiling and it's much better.
I originally was going overhead, then got uncomfortable making holes in the ceiling. I temporarily went “up-firing” and yeah… it sucked. Cranking the volume up, as you suggested, made me feel them (thanks!) but yeah, they’ll go on the ceiling after all.
It is as simple as creating the correct angle from speaker, to ceiling, to listener. As long as you have a hard, flat surface, sound reflects off at the same angle it comes in--just like banking a pool ball off a rail. Change the speaker angle or height and it moves the sweet spot closer or further from the listener.
@@FisherCatProductions Thanks for your response, so I did install them high up after all and it is much much much better. The verticality is now present and effective. I will say this, the height channels are still not as impressive as the surround ones in terms of how it “expanded” the experience for me. Similar to how 60fps to 144fps was huge in terms of benefit, but 144fps to 240fps, while yes it was better, it wasn’t as impactful. However, I’m glad its done and I do have “wow” moments. Cheers, tks again for your inputs.
@@WhyKlef Glad it worked. It makes sense that the overhead does not have the increase in impact that surrounds have. In real life there is far more sound originating "around us" than "above us". Depends on what movie you are watching, of course. Keep messing with volume and crossover any you may be able to tweak it further if it is not up to par. Just realize that "par" is very subtle in most movies. Ciao.
I plan on upgrading from DD 5.1 w/2 subs to to 5.1.2 but using 2 subs and 2 speakers mounted up above firing downwards. Just looking for a decently priced used Atmos 4k AVR.
you can use a lazer pointer, a small mirror and the mrs! lol, I got mrs to stand on a chair holding the mirror on the ceiling, and I pointed the lazer from the speakers to listen position via ceiling
I Love the new lighting intro... and your intro speech is SO fast man. Talk really quickly. =) ...and of course.. bouncing is LAST resort if people can avoid it.
I'm running 5.1.4 system using a Denon 4700h, Klipsch kg4.2 mains, RP504C center,rp502s surrounds and 4 svs prime elevations. Room is 17L X 14W X 8H. Front primes are mounted on the wall close to the ceiling facing forward, while the rears are mounted on the left and right side walls close to the ceiling facing the middle of the room. I can hear the fronts ok and the rears i'm installing tonight, so I'll have to let you know how they sound later. My question is: Can I crank up the volume on the front heights even though audyssey room correction has set the levels? Keep up the great videos.
Installed the rear heights on Saturday and what a difference it makes having 4 height channels. System seems more alive now. Can't wait to go back and rewatch those special movies.
I just got a 4700 last month to replace my 20+-year-old 5.1 receiver. I was thinking of replacing my front mains with Klipsch towers w/integrated Atmos units (forgot model #) and possible a new center speaker. Right now I don't own my house so I don't want to put holes in the walls or ceiling (except just to hang pcs). My bedroom/stereo is a couple feet smaller than your media room. The Audyssey calibration was a new experience for me.
the Atmos speakers should be 45deg up from your seated position, so no surprise they still sounded like they were in front of you, you have more like 30deg in that room...
Are we to assume you ran Audyssey each time you severely altered the configuration? You didn’t say a word about that. In fact, in Amp Assignment, there is a configuration specifically for up firing speakers. I don’t think you apartment managers are going to appreciate you cutting huge holes to put the speakers in the ceiling.
@@Kpaceguy Joe n Tell has a video about switching from 2 to 4 Atmos. I saw it after yours. It too involved the SVS Elevation speakers. What I gathered, due to their design, those speakers are not intended to be used as “bouncy house” speakers anyway. Here is something for you to ponder. Rotate your height speakers sideways, so the drivers are horizontal instead of vertical. The theory is regarding sound stage. When a speaker is vertical it has a wide horizontal soundstage. We don’t want heights to be wide. If you rotate that soundstage in line with you, you WILL hear a difference. I don’t know if you can do it with these speakers, the mount is crucial. For my Def Tech satellites and for a friend with large Polk satellites, it makes a significant difference. Just picture it in your mind. I simply loosened my mounts, and laid the speakers horizontal. I did not rerun Audyssey. The change in sound was immediately noticed. Play some Atmos music from Apple Music or Tidal, that you are pretty familiar with. I LOVE to do this type of tweaking!
Yes up firing is the worst. I had the prime elevation I got those speakers as soon they put them on the market. They are a really good speaker I used them as a high and on the ceiling where is works the best. But they were to bulky. Then I fund Polk Audio OWM3 and I sold the prime. I have this Polk and I love them the seat flat on the ceiling with the right bracket you can even angle them and they are not expensive I have four of them.
My current setup I,m using B&W in-ceiling speakers, but before that I had a pair of Elac upward firing atmos speakers…total waste of money. Running them off a atmos capable Denon I heard no over head effects what so ever, even on aggressively mixed UHD discs like King Kong Skull Island. I stayed with them for 4 months trying to tweak them to work until I finally threw in the towel.
Hello Kyle I would like to say I hope that all is well with you there in Ky with the snow and all in the area. I used Onkyo 410s sitting on top of my towers and I didn't hear them and I didn't crank them up at all, so I decided to get another set and I bought a set of speaker mounts and I have installed the mounts on the bottom of the speakers using screw inserts to be able to angle the speakers to the listening area. I installed each speaker in the corners of the room and I put them about 2" from the ceiling and I am pleased with the results they are working for the most part like they should, but I have discovered that you have to use atmos speakers to get the best results because of the crossover for atmos speakers are a very different crossover than the normal standard type crossover. I have a house and I am not going to cut my ceiling for atmos speakers because this theater thing is always changing and I don't know what maybe next.
Question did you run your av receiver speaker calibration again once you changed the speaker placement? Ive had Dolby atmos enabled speakers for about 2 years. I had the sony ones, now i have the new polk ones. Sony was amazing and the polk ones are even better. I can hear mine perfectly and its insane! Everyone that comes to my place are blown away when I put a dolby atmos movie or demo disc on. I have the pioneer elite VSX-LX304 av receiver and you can adjust speaker placement and distance from listening area and for how far they are from the ceiling. Im not sure why you are having issues, im very surprised, especially since before I first got my dolby atmos enabled speakers i went to a best buy listening room and they had in ceiling speakers and my system at home with my enabled speakers, sound better than what best buy was doing. Also have you watched the video by Andrew jones when he says he prefers dolby atmos enabled speakers over putting them in the ceiling? I have a feeling something in your av receiver isnt set on the right setting and thats causing you the issue. Let me know your thoughts
Everytime you add, remove or change something you run calibration. It's not that there's something wrong, it's the one sounds better than the other and is is far less from dependant
@@Kpaceguy hmmmm i guess I just got lucky with my setup. Maybe my room and ceiling height is perfect for upfiring speakers and thats why I get beyond amazing results. Everytime someone new comes to my place the first thing they do when Dolby atmos kicks in is look at the ceiling and ask, "where are your speakers in the ceiling?" " I hear them but I dont see them!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I have a question. I also have the Sony Atmos speakers. I have a 5.1.2 system. I have an Onkyo 696 receiver. Now I have the Sony toppers on my surround speakers because I can’t put them on top of my front speakers. So my question is in the receiver settings do I have to select the topper speakers on my surrounds or can I select top middle since I have my toppers pointing to reflect towards the middle of room? I did a calibration of both settings and the top middle sounds better then if I select toppers on surrounds. Understand what I mean?
You are right I have my SVS height firing up I can not hear nothing from them. When I get my man cave done I will place them on the wall. But now nothing
I'm using a Denon AVR-X6700 and all the Atmos speakers have gone on the walls. This garbage that it'll magically bounce off the ceiling is just that. It's absolute nonsense. 🤦🏼♂️
I have a regular 7.1 receiver with 4 dipole def techs about 9 feet off the ground and about 5 feet apart.. two mains are def techs 2000s and center is cs9080 powered .. all sound good and spacious but you got me curious about dolby atmos now .. maybe I'll get an entry level receiver this year 🤔
Finally someone who is saying the truth! I have never believed anyone saying that you can have proper atmos with this ceiling bounce installation (soundbars for example). You must sit in proper position and have the right ceiling, height etc. and still I would imagine the effect is mediocre at best. Thx
1st off you need 4 atmos speakers instead of the 2 that you have, that type of speaker is not enough to crank since it's bouning. You also need to change the time alignment for those speakers when you've pointed them up. Also that ceiling it's not smooth so it's very diffused. Also you have that side ceiling on the left reflecting even more instead of It directing like it should to the ceiling. Pointing up is the only way for some folks they just need to know how to do it properly. PS Raising your towers and desktop speaker stands 6" and taking off the grills on your Atmos speakers make a difference.
@@Kpaceguy Awesome, try adjusting 5-6 ft difference in the (Atmos) settings and slightly crank it one last time before you go back to mounting them on walls and putting back your old settings to see what I'm talking about. PS I'm looking into some white DJ speaker stands that will probably supplement screwing the atmos speakers to the wall. May help for WAF factor. I will have to figure something out.🤷🏾♂️
@@avh700 I have two upFiring Klipsch RP500SA's on adjustable speakers stands behind my 65inch Sony Z9D. My flat ceiling is just shy of 8 feet high. The face of my RP500SA's is about 3 feet from the ceiling. My two RP500SA is set several DB's higher than my Bed Level speakers. I run 5.1.4. My two upFiring rear speakers are Focal Evo. My Atmos effects are awesome(I hear Atmos Objects coming from many different places in the Sphere, even objects crawling traveling on ceiling top). I have over 50 4K blue rays discs with Atmos or DTS X. Rest of my speakers are Klipsch. Subs SVS. Paradigm. My upFirinf Focal EVO's sits on a stationary built cabinet shelf counter. I have been to high end Audio/Visuals stores with Home Theater demo rooms. My choice for the upFiring was a ThoughtOut decision.
@@larrywong7834 I love how you put it behind the TV. It helps the illusion of not seeing the speaker and having the ambience of the atmos (3D sound ) come out at you. Well done!
@@avh700 What he said. And take heed of how satisfied Larry Wong is. Changing the height, the distance, or the angle of the speaker is critical to hitting the listener with the sweet spot. It's like banking a pool ball off a rail.
Nice video. I recommend the 30 degree angle from the ceiling or on top of the wall like for auro 3d. Hey kpace could you give me a tip for a good 9.1. Reciever? I wann use 4 height speakers and not only 2 but I don't wanna spend thousands on an avr. At the moment I've got a Yamaha rxv 683. It's a 7.2. Reciever but I wanna upgrade. Any recommendations? Greetings from Germany 👍
You know I wonder could it be based on the speaker when it comes to up firing atmos speakers for example could a Klipsch horn be better than a SVS Twitter when it comes to up firing atmos. 🤔
@@Kpaceguy interesting I am getting Klipsch soon so I was just kind of curious about that I know it can be subjective from person to person though it still is a interesting result. 😏
I want to know when we talking about ceiling height are we referring floor to ceiling or from the speaker to ceiling? For the SVS height speakers are talking about the speakers facing up toward the ceiling or just facing toward the center of listening area?
From floor to ceiling is usually what people are talking about. But they say 8ft ceilings are best because of the typical speaker height your floor speakers are.
If you are talking about a wall mounted SVS facing down, then floor to ceiling. If you are looking at up-firing speakers, the critical measure is speaker to ceiling, since changing that distance changes the bounce angle.
I just bought a soundbar with 2 up firing speakers built in. It is weird but it’s working, let me explain. In order for me to hear the reflected sound, I have to max out the speaker output (the up firings only) but I can hear it coming form the soundbar instead of the ceiling…… 😮💨😛🤪 so to me it’s not working but those speakers do produce sound so guess it is working? 🤣🤣😂
I am doing the same thing and in the same situation. I have Sony up firing speakers and live in a apartment. I tried to listen to James Bond the other night and could not get any sound at all because with Yamaha you have to calibrate with the microphone and I an looking for that now. So I will let you know if I have the same result
Auto calibration may not work well with upfiring. Crank them up manually, just don't let the overhead get overwhelming. It is supposed to be a subtle addition to the surround, and of course only heard when there are the occasional overhead objects in the movie.
Atmos upfiring speakers suck... kind of ... they are unbelievably angle and room sensitive. I found I had to set my Atmos speakers distance to 52ft (my avr limit), for contrast my other 7 are set to 10feet and even then they are subtle. Ceiling speakers are the way to go
When a person have that kind of a home theater, they should be in a house, not in an apartment, to potentially disturbing your neighbors. If you're in an apartment, you can't mount in-ceiling Dolby Atmos speakers because of the unit that's above you.
@@Kpaceguy Congrats. When you move in, you are really going to enjoy your home theater like never before, without worrying about any management restrictions, and potential complaints from your surrounding neighbors about your sound system.
Kpace guy then what is the best place for Atmos..I am planning to add a pair of Atmos stairs.. Where can I place? Directly above listening position which is not cumbersome to drill holes in the ceiling or place above the screen like you.. Let me know which is the best place I have same problem like you..I am staying in an apartment..I cannot put holes in the cealing..
@@EctoPlasmic If you are doing a 5.1.2, ya, Dolby says your overheads should be off the the side, just ahead of you. Why would wall speakers be any different than in ceiling? The only reason to put a single pair of Atmos up front is if they are up-firing so you can get the correct bounce angle down onto the listener. Just treat you wall mounts like the overheads in the Dolby Guide and you will be OK.
I can't do much but LOL at the video title, you've clearly shown you're not great at setting up atmos upfiring speakers. did you not bother experimenting with the angle the speakers are at, left at the default angle unless you're sat very close to the speakers the sound will bounce WAY in front of your seating position. Atmos sounds great on my setup with upfiring speakers, took some experimenting with increasing the angle of the speakers but they're working great now.
@@Kpaceguy well I'm guessing not, unless your sat so far from your front speakers (if the atmos speakers were placed on top of them) that you can't angle the speakers enough to have the bounce aimed at your seating position which certainly can be an issue with upfiring speakers depending on how large the room is or if the ceiling height isn't that high. Been running an atmos setup since 2016 with a Yamaha RX-V681 & the cheapest upfiring atmos speakers on the market at the time (Onkyo) and on first install there was no overhead effect at all, searching online on a/v forums I found discussions about increasing the angle of the speakers so the bounce off the ceiling is aimed just in front of your seating position (although not to much otherwise it'll just sound like it's coming direct from the speaker). Another tip was to increase the db for the atmos speakers as they have got more work to do bouncing the sound off the ceiling. The atmos demos sound fantastic & films that make good use of atmos sound just as good, I have zero complaints about using upfiring speakers but there's a lot more trial & error involved than in ceiling atmos speakers.
@@Kpaceguy sadly in ceiling speakers wasn't an option so I had to use upfiring speakers but the title to this video is totally incorrect & flat out misleading to anyone thinking about getting a dolby atmos setup & contemplating upfiring speakers, they work just fine.
I bought Costco kiplisch atmos speakers and Yamaha receiver I really don’t notice any sound difference and receiver tends to drop sound I think my kiplisch system was waste of money and receiver
@Kpaceguy by the looks of your videos I would say no. And you say equipment as if its good or something lol. Again learn how to calibrate your stuff. There's many people on RUclips myself included who have elaborate home theater rooms and not just some shotty projector and screen with white van speakers who have tried up firing atmos speakers and they are almost as good as out in ceiling down firing speakers above our heads. Before trying to sound smart actually learn about speaker placement and using a good receiver and using its calibration mic and calibration system. Your speaker tow is wrong. Your placement is wrong and then you wonder why it sounds bad. 🤷
@Kpaceguy only thing that's hilarious is you living in suck a small place trying to make a theater room with bad placement and then bashing on suppliers because it sounds bad. Angry? Far from it. It's been good entertainment. Can't wait until the next video.
It is a pity that the industry is not honoust about the Atmos tech. Without a good setup of speakers the effect is very, very thin. without good sound engineering of the movies, it is neglectable. Rooms often have many limitations to get it right. Audiophiles have trouble to get 2 speakers set up right. Now we have to setup 8 or 14 speakers at the right position. How on earth would a mortal pull that off? And how the hell can we convince our non-audiophiliac partners to "decorate" our rooms in the optimal manner?
"Not honest"? The only thing you said that is accurate is "without a good setup." There are more than enough resources to make a good, simple setup possible for a DIY home theatre. A number of folks on this discussion used the advice of others to change from "it sucks" to "wow, I guess it works." Upfiring speakers and upfiring sound bars are no more of a distraction than surrounds.
No offense but your apartment doesn't look totally ideal either. 😔 Cramped, popcorn ceiling, a lot of stuff scattered around. The sound may be going wild there.
The only people that claim up firing atmos is close to the real deal is people that either have never heard a good Atmos setup or have no other option thus want to convince themselves that is good. Is not.. Simple as that.
Define "need". You need at least two. If you don't like it, go with 4. Look at the Dolby Installation Guide. You may want your rear overheads just in front of your couch and off to the side.
Reflecting sound is exactly what you don't want in a surround sound system. Want to hear a door knock behind you? Put a speaker behind you, do not try to bank shot a door knock off the ceiling. Want to hear a bird tweet just a few feet above your head? Put speakers over your head. Want to hear a gun shot to the right side of you? Put a speaker to the right side of you. I believe these speaker makers are doing what they can to reflect our money into their wallets.
Hey Kyle...
You're mostly right here. Elevated is not exactly like "from above", its a close compromise when you have no-choice at all. I too have SVS Elevs x4, I agree that they sounded weak at ear-level for the reasons you mention: too low, locatable, small, far away etc etc
My compromise was to put them up on stilts (2 ft high speaker stands on top of my towers) which gave me more height-locatable sound, yet allowed some diffuse quality which mimics an array of height speakers for things like thunder. You hear thunder at a "corner" vs a single speaker, that moves to a central phantom location as its transitioning to the next corner. There's more of a corner location effect, vs "discreet"-speaker location effect. Atmos isn't always discreet from what I'm hearing/ reading.
I now get both height & semi-difuse quadrants, all in this particular compromise. Can't wall/ceiling mount in my unit.
Its the best of both worlds as there is separation between lower bed layer drivers and upper Atmos drivers by 3 ft.
Atmos layer is now at 5 ft mark in my 8ft ceiling room. Again the upper speakers now sound at-height, and are not too locatable so it sounds like 6 Atmos or > speakers, vs just the 4 corners.
Try this experiment, mount your Atmos enableds high up ( even on either wall, if no towers) , but point at the ceiling to add that multi speaker array "feel". You might discover you like it too.
Peace.
Just wanted to say thank you. My system has never sound as good as it does right now after watching your calibration video going back in and tweaking things. The sound is unbelievable. I have a 7.2.4. All Klipsch reference with a Pioneer elite sc-Lx 704 and I cannot be more happy with it so thanks again
Thanks man I appreciate it!
Your experience flies in the face of a lot of professional sound critique articles on upfiring speakers. A few conclude they are just shy of in-ceiling units, and many find the bounced effect more realistic. Even the Dolby Installation Guidelines state that the upfiring effect is often more immersive. and more satisfying Sound does not bounce around sporadically, as you suggest. It travels along very defined geometric paths. If you've ever test-positioned absorbing sound panels along walls, you would well aware of how distinct and predictable those paths are that sound reflections take. It is as predictable as banking a pool ball. As long as the angle of the speaker, the ceiling height/composition, and distance to the listener are correct, the Atmos effect WILL immerse you. Flat, residential height, drywall ceilings are perfect reflectors. The subtle dispersion effect is often more realistic than a ceiling speaker (especially an angled ceiling unit) hitting you square in the face, giving away it's position. This is a great video for getting thought going.
EDIT: if you have popcorn ceilings as some have pointed out, it may disburse the sound too much and make the effect difficult or impossible to achieve.
That would be me
@@Kpaceguy Sorry man. That sucks LOL
The Elevations are not designed to be upfirers, as they don't have Dolby's HRTF built into their design. They could be used that way with Audyssey since it can actually add the frequency changes in with EQ if a speaker is designated as Dolby enabled, but ARC and other auto-EQs don't do that to my knowledge.
I tried a set on my marantz 8015 with my calibration mic on an actual tripod where the tripod was place at each person's seat. Audyssy calibrated and they sound almost as good as my 4 in ceiling down firing speakers. I tried a set of the klipsch 800 series eith atmos built in and I tried a set of kef up firing atmos and klipsch. They each did very well. Another thing is speaker placement. This guys in this video his tow is off and they are way to close to the side walls. His room is too small. Sorry but if your going to cram all that stuff into a small room don't expect it to sound good. About the only thing he did right was the foam on the walls to get rid of standing waves.
Upfiring speakers vs inceiling/front height Atmos placement is a minor problem compared to having your left speaker pushed right up against a sidewall, while the right side has a few ft to its sidewall. This will really mess up your stereo image/width and phantom center
Yup. And there's no where else for it to go
@@Kpaceguy thats a bummer man. Can you flip the room 90deg?
@@jamiet74 I have had this room in every configuration possible. This actually has the least problems out of all the ways I've had it
The workaround would be to slightly move the speakers about 6"-8" in and raise the up 2 - 2.5 ft with all the speakers on a platform ( may be and old tvstand/center), get a back projection screen or one that will allow sound through it, bringing down the new one lower like you have it in the movie houses. Remembering to remove the girls from your speakers . The only problem is you won't have a setup to look at when you're listening to music. It would disappear behind the screen. The plus is that it will be more realistic and all placement of speakers would be on par with your trying to acieve for the atmos speakers and the speaker imaging coming from behind the screen all-in-one with a very little damage and work.
PS After all that, I would go a little more crazy with it by going up another size on the screen with a panoramic screen or keeping the ratio with the next size up just moving back the projector to fill it up .
My vaulted cieling is too high, and the front wall is too far, so the best thing I did was set up some satellite speakers on the side walls as close to 45 degrees above, left, and right as possible. First I only set up front heights, and it already sounded like it was coming from pretty high, and I loved it! Next, I had another pair of the same satellite speakers and did the exact same setup again but for the rear heights. I only have a 7 ch receiver so I wired the left top heights in parallel and the right top heights in parallel. That seriously made the height immersion significantly better! Now all the height stuff feels like it's directly above me! I know that's not safe for the impedance but those speakers have a very small wattage rating and I don't listen to stuff too loud anyways so that's not a big deal in this case. Plus if I ever upgrade to a 9 ch, then I'll already have the speakers set up correctly.
Upfiring can be QUITE convincing...if everything about the whole setup is absolutely perfect! The science is sound (no pun intended), it's just the window of success is too small for 98% of people to enjoy it which is not what's is communicated to them.
Yeah, but you forgot about the wife factor so no speakers on the ceiling or wall. I'm using upfiring sitting on top of my entertainment unit (11 feet high) cranked up and they work okay given that I have a pitched 18-foot ceiling. Honestly, I even don't want speakers hanging on the wall and in-ceiling would be great but I don't have a crawl space and I'm not ready to do a wall-wired fishing expedition yet. So I'm thinking about adding another pair on top of my rear surrounds to switch to a 5.2.4. I have a Marantz SR5015 (which I love for music) and will experiment with setting the speaker/amp assign setup from "Front Height" to "Top Middle" for fun.
In ceiling definitely has the highest WAF (wife acceptance factor).
Some of us wives don’t mind. I just purchased the SVS elevations and my husband will be mounting them this weekend.
The height of the ceiling is important, plus the hardness of the surface of ceiling, and of course the angle of the upfiring speakers, related to the distance ofyour listeni position. Then you also have toing of the front speakers...in the end a lot of factors that play a role. Two speakers also can not produce a sense of location of height objects (this is partially simulated by your surround speakers, but it is a bit weird).
I think more r&d needs to be done on top firing speakers. I think what companies are doing are just sticking one of their common drivers used on their tower/bookshelves rather than one more directional and efficient. Hitting the ceiling will diffuse the sound a lot but if you have a more directional speakers then it will diffuse less. I think using "pro" speakers like the kinda used in concerts would probably result in better Atmos top firing sound
True but then that will drive up cost significantly. Upfiring atmos speakers are for a budget way to add ATMOS to your HT
True, but then it restricts the listening position that much more as well. That’s the benefit of a ceiling speaker is that is can come directly from above and have a horizontal and vertical spread
I think the best atmos positioning is in the ceiling for the right effects but i dont want to cut holes in my new ceiling in case i mess it up.
Hire a professional to do it. And if you don't have the money to do that. Then use specific Atmos speakers that are designed to go at the very top of the front and rear walls. Flush at the top corner edge of the ceiling, much better than the bouncy upfiring Atmos modules!
7.3.4 My Atmos are Def Tech di8r in ceiling and man I could not be happier. I have a few short videos that do sweeps around the room and I cannot hear a gap throughout. I used the angles from the Dolby sites recommendations for them all best I could with a few compromises. Thanks for the video man!
You might have noticed that even Dolby has actually gone quiet on Dolby enabled up firing speakers and to a lesser degree in ceiling. Using in ceiling also limits the use of the like of Auro 3D, which if used as an up mixer on those weak Dolby Atmos tracks is way better. The solution is to have an arrangement such as the Yamaha presence speakers but possibly on a narrower alignment than in corners as Yamaha used to espouse. It’s also important to have the HEIGHT speaker settings (don’t use TOP settings if you have the option in your AVR, unless you are using a Voice of God) and the speakers angled to your ears as if you are STANDING at your listen position. You need that so that your ear level surrounds are separated directionally from the Heights.
I think the problem you are seeing is related to our ceiling which has a texture. I am running Klipsh Atmos speakers in the up firing Atmos method and they work great. Klipsh has specific guidelines for setup and one of them "rules" is that it will not work well with stucco or textured ceilings as it deflects the sound and diminishes the effect. with that ceiling I would wall mount and do down firing height mode. Your ceiling height may also be playing a lessor role in these not working.
Its 8ft as recommended but yes it's tectured which had an effect
I have the Pioneer Elite Andrew Jones Atmos system with SVS subs and a 5.2.4 Pioneer Elite receiver and honestly I think people that have issues don’t have it tuned correctly. I get great spatial sound. Maybe not as good as in ceiling but it’s pretty impressive.
If your going to bounce the sound off of the ceiling they shouldn't be on top of tower speakers. There sitting too low at that point. Instead try mounting them higher towards the ceiling on a stand or shelf or bracket. We tried this and it worked alot better.
I recently bought a Denon Atmos HT receiver and plan on buying Atmos speakers. I live in an apartment and will wall mount them using speaker mounts which are adjustable as my stereo is in the corner of the living room. Thanks for the tips.
I'd say upfiring is a 2 out of 10, height speakers are a 6 and overhead is a 9. The issuse is Atmos sountracks tend to be weak. I actually prefer Dts Neural X upscaled from 5.1
Same to me sometimes DD sounds better to me than Atmos
@@HOOK_NOSE_JEW "sometimes DD sounds better to me than Atmos" said NOBODY.
@@twistacatz atmos signal is to quiet.....dts x sounds amazing
@@HOOK_NOSE_JEW I don’t know man, I really don’t find that to be the case. Also 90% of UHD movies are Atmos. And I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything streaming wise use DTS:X. I don’t dislike DTS:X I just don’t find it any better or worse then Atmos.
@@HOOK_NOSE_JEW Well, volume regulation is for this.
Your ceiling material and having a fan makes a huge difference too, I have been using up-firing for a few years now and am moving to a house with with higher ceilings so I think I am going to have to have them firing down due to the higher ceiling height.
I honestly believe that it depends on the Atmos track, the height and what type of ceiling, and the acoustics of the room.
Not entirely. Sound doesn't work like all those Atmos pictures shows. It spreads out from the source. By the time sound from upwards firing speakers reach the ceiling, it has already spread out quite a bit. And not only will it spread out more on the way down, it will also lose some sound that's absorbed by the ceiling surface. The result is that the sound will just sound a bit muddled and that it's hard to truly tell where it's coming from... since by the time the ceiling-bounced sound reaches your ears, those same soundwaves are also coming from other directions and it's wide.
I'm sure this is something they can resolve with tech in the future. But the tech is not quite there yet. In order for it to truly work, they'd need to be able to shoot soundwaves to the ceiling in a narrow path. I think it's impressive that it works as well as it does right now, but simulating isn't as good as real speakers just yet. Besides that, we've yet to really have a true 360 audio sound. They say Atmos is a sound bubble, but that's not really true. If that was the case, they could make it sound like something's right next to your ear, slightly further, slightly to the side, etc. They can't do that precise 3D placement of sounds yet. So proper surround sound tech still has some ways to go.
@thenonexistinghero I totally understand what you mean. Dolby Atmos greatly depends on speaker placement, and how high your ceiling is. I think that I lucked out. The ceiling in my living room is low, and my surround speakers are placed directly behind me at an angle. I've watched the star wars movies all of my life and when I say that I literally can hear an x-wing or tie fighter fly overhead from the upper left hight channel, to the rear right upper surround channel. It does work. And to add...all Dolby Atmos soundtracks are not created equal. That also depends on how the studio mixed the meta data at the studio before distribution. I'm going to suggest a few 4k movies for reference material. The Star Wars saga, all of the recent Godzilla/King Kong movies, Ready Player One, The Hobbit Trilogy, and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy. The Matrix Saga, damn near all of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, except for Thor Ragnarok...and many more.
@@antonioowensby8823 I've seen a few recommend movies and while it does sorta work... it mostly does when I stare at the screen. When I focus on a speaker that the sound is coming from, I can hear it coming from a speaker.
That being said, I'm restricted to streaming. Many of those movies are either locked behind a paywall or don't have Atmos support for the streaming version. Some also don't have Atmos support for streaming in all regions (like Soul and Spider-Man Homecoming for Disney+).
I'm not saying it doesn't work at all. Just that there's still quite a difference even in an ideal setting (I don't have an ideal setting, but there's plenty of tech RUclipsrs who do and they all pretty much say that upfiring isn't on the same level as downfiring ceiling speakers).
Some major reasons it's not working is the fact that he has multiple panels that reduce sound by absorbing it. And he has a textured ceiling which also deflects soundwave into a scattered pattern and not directly hitting the viewer. He also has a fan in the room which of that is on will disrupt the Atmos effect. This is highly unideal he even has paintings in the room which will cause the effects from Dolby Atmos to be terrible or diminished. Small Apartments are not ideal for Dolby Atmos Home Theater set ups.
Because you can't have the volume high enough to enjoy the Atmos effects efficiently without neighbors complaining. This is definitely a home setup that is not professionally done and needs a lot of work.
You'd bring a professional into an apartment?
Yeah Ive been a bit frustrated with the whole Dolby Atmos setup. I bought a pair of Pioneer upward firing Dolby Atmos speakers and then read or heard that 2 pair was best so I bought another pair. I have since replaced 1 pair and swapped for a Polk Audio S35 Center Channel and a pair of S20's to improve my front stage - Ive been trying to avoid cutting holes in the ceiling since i dont own my home....and Ive also wrestled with the placebo question. Ive also added another subwoofer which creates a nice rumble - but the atmos thing still seems to struggle at moderate volume..
In my experience, they work. And I have even bought the cheapest of them all, the small Onkyo ones. It might be that I live in a new building with build of hard concrete with a relative low sealing. But they work, maybe not pinpoint, but I got helicopters over my head.
Man I have helicopters flying over my head even with LR surrounds. No need for atmos speakers at all. I would see the main benefit from atmos for better objects location in the 3d space of your room. I think this upfiring installation may produce some sound from above but not be able to properly place objects in space as the sound is too scattered and undirected. You know the stereo effect but in 3d space..
The reason your Atmos sound bad bouncing it off the ceiling is because the speakers aren’t the correct type.
The only ones that work correctly that way are concentric drivers. Otherwise your mids and highs hit your ears at different times.
Go watch Andrew Jones on the Pioneer Atmos design.
I think he made another set with Elac too.
In order for your speakers to sound correct, they need to be up on the wall or ceiling pointing at you. Use a laser pointer to make sure your angles are correct.
Most people who reflect their speakers don’t even have them reflected at the correct angles either.
I have an up firing system in my lounge of the bedroom and in-ceiling downstairs...if the point is having a total immersion...a sense of being there...then my PioneerT22As do the job...submarine creaks, bullets flying, planes overhead, roof collapses, rain, singing, etc....all sound for real...and well places me in the environment...it doesn't sound much different than my dedicated home theater.....
Damn it! I just got the Klipsch speaker sett from Costco, the tower speaker has the atmos on the top built in. So I screwed to put the high.
I did get klipsch atmos pair separate, to put them beside me up high , with 9.2 receiver, trying to make 5.2.4 set up.
I got low ceilings in the basement, hopefully it helps.
Great video tho! Thanks buddy.👍
Is that the new one with the atmos in all 4 speakers, that you can only get from costco?. Let me know how it sounds. I was telling my friend about it, since he was looking for something like that, and he us a big klipsch fan.
@@4tothes25 I know which one talking about, they all the same. I was looking at them too.
I got the one with towers, bookshelfs and center, without subwoofer. The tower is the
R-625FA . Did already have a 10” klipsch sub, and 12” Velodyne . Love them both!
You can just run more power for the upfiring atmos speakers alone. Give it its own power and you will hear the difference
Power doesn't = Volume
As much as I want Atmos this will save me a ton of money on a cheap setup now realizing that it's always best to go big or go home. So now for the time being I'll go without Atmos for probably another 10 years until I can own a place and install some good in ceiling speakers.
I agree with you on some parts, but you also have textured ceilings which is going to mess with sound waves. Just like having a ceiling fan and atmos speakers is not good, but for your situation being that far away. It would be more ideal if have height speakers than up firing.
Thank so much for the video! I almost bought some klipsch reference premiere atmos speakers til I saw this. I'm currently running a klipsch reference 5.1 setup. I have a 8ft ceiling and sit back 16ft from a 150inch screen.
I have my upfiring speakers mounted on the wall like height speakers. It doesnt blend with the left and right channels and i boost the DB a bit too
Yes if they have a keyhole mount or brackets. That's how I use my front 2 atmos speakers
I got rid of my Prime Elevations and purchused Focal Dome Flax for Atmos. Like the size of the speakers when attached to ceiling and they sound great.
your ceiling is very textured too which will really diffuse and scatter the sound a LOT more than if the ceiling was flat... that said I agree upfiring is still a big compromise either way.
i think forward facing is always going to be best if not in ceiling, as soon as they market speakers as atmos they cost 2500 bucks, when you can get equal or better hieght speakers for 900 bucks
Happy New Year! Hope all goes well in 2022! Yes to elevation speakers! I had a pair of bouncy house speakers on top of my mains when Atmos first came out and had B&W Ds6 for rear ...same results as you....then got the SVS elevation for front and since my mains are 3 feet from the wall behind them SVS tech guy said to put the front Elevation on side wall firing down about half way in room or middle of room with the B&W at the back and after doing a new calibration with this set up and the third sub behind main seating position (2 subs up front) dont really feel the need for adding a fourth sub with the third sub behind the couch ...any ways its a big improvement with action movies it is like you are in the middle of the movie and the Tanks in Fury are in your room right with you and you feel it in your seat yeah a lot better this way! Good luck with that project! Have fun!
Upfiring rears sound good in my room. But I found some Samsung surrounds with brackets in storage and mounted them to the ceiling and it's much better.
I originally was going overhead, then got uncomfortable making holes in the ceiling. I temporarily went “up-firing” and yeah… it sucked. Cranking the volume up, as you suggested, made me feel them (thanks!) but yeah, they’ll go on the ceiling after all.
It is as simple as creating the correct angle from speaker, to ceiling, to listener. As long as you have a hard, flat surface, sound reflects off at the same angle it comes in--just like banking a pool ball off a rail. Change the speaker angle or height and it moves the sweet spot closer or further from the listener.
@@FisherCatProductions Thanks for your response, so I did install them high up after all and it is much much much better. The verticality is now present and effective.
I will say this, the height channels are still not as impressive as the surround ones in terms of how it “expanded” the experience for me. Similar to how 60fps to 144fps was huge in terms of benefit, but 144fps to 240fps, while yes it was better, it wasn’t as impactful.
However, I’m glad its done and I do have “wow” moments. Cheers, tks again for your inputs.
@@WhyKlef Glad it worked. It makes sense that the overhead does not have the increase in impact that surrounds have. In real life there is far more sound originating "around us" than "above us". Depends on what movie you are watching, of course. Keep messing with volume and crossover any you may be able to tweak it further if it is not up to par. Just realize that "par" is very subtle in most movies. Ciao.
Thank you so much for this knowledge and experience, i will get high above TV or like your advise mid ceiling above viewing seat. Thank you
Thanks for watching!
I plan on upgrading from DD 5.1 w/2 subs to to 5.1.2 but using 2 subs and 2 speakers mounted up above firing downwards. Just looking for a decently priced used Atmos 4k AVR.
you can use a lazer pointer, a small mirror and the mrs! lol, I got mrs to stand on a chair holding the mirror on the ceiling, and I pointed the lazer from the speakers to listen position via ceiling
THANK YOU very much for this advice my friend!
Use a mirror and a laser to find the sound path.
I don’t agree , it is the way to go , this guy has too small upfiring speakers for the distance his sofa is from them, poor set up.
Sooo you imply that there are bigger atmos speakers out there than these that we should sit in top of our speakers?
@@Kpaceguy no , you want your sofa closer to the screen and speakers. Then you may find you’ll have more impact with the upfire rebound.
I Love the new lighting intro... and your intro speech is SO fast man. Talk really quickly. =)
...and of course.. bouncing is LAST resort if people can avoid it.
I'm running 5.1.4 system using a Denon 4700h, Klipsch kg4.2 mains, RP504C center,rp502s surrounds and 4 svs prime elevations. Room is 17L X 14W X 8H. Front primes are mounted on the wall close to the ceiling facing forward, while the rears are mounted on the left and right side walls close to the ceiling facing the middle of the room. I can hear the fronts ok and the rears i'm installing tonight, so I'll have to let you know how they sound later. My question is: Can I crank up the volume on the front heights even though audyssey room correction has set the levels? Keep up the great videos.
If you can't hear it, yes. But May wasn't to raise your crossover a tad
Installed the rear heights on Saturday and what a difference it makes having 4 height channels. System seems more alive now. Can't wait to go back and rewatch those special movies.
I just got a 4700 last month to replace my 20+-year-old 5.1 receiver. I was thinking of replacing my front mains with Klipsch towers w/integrated Atmos units (forgot model #) and possible a new center speaker. Right now I don't own my house so I don't want to put holes in the walls or ceiling (except just to hang pcs). My bedroom/stereo is a couple feet smaller than your media room. The Audyssey calibration was a new experience for me.
the Atmos speakers should be 45deg up from your seated position, so no surprise they still sounded like they were in front of you, you have more like 30deg in that room...
Are we to assume you ran Audyssey each time you severely altered the configuration? You didn’t say a word about that. In fact, in Amp Assignment, there is a configuration specifically for up firing speakers.
I don’t think you apartment managers are going to appreciate you cutting huge holes to put the speakers in the ceiling.
They've seen it and said nothing. But I use anthem arc room correction Yes I run it with every change
@@Kpaceguy Joe n Tell has a video about switching from 2 to 4 Atmos. I saw it after yours. It too involved the SVS Elevation speakers. What I gathered, due to their design, those speakers are not intended to be used as “bouncy house” speakers anyway.
Here is something for you to ponder. Rotate your height speakers sideways, so the drivers are horizontal instead of vertical. The theory is regarding sound stage. When a speaker is vertical it has a wide horizontal soundstage. We don’t want heights to be wide. If you rotate that soundstage in line with you, you WILL hear a difference. I don’t know if you can do it with these speakers, the mount is crucial. For my Def Tech satellites and for a friend with large Polk satellites, it makes a significant difference.
Just picture it in your mind. I simply loosened my mounts, and laid the speakers horizontal. I did not rerun Audyssey. The change in sound was immediately noticed.
Play some Atmos music from Apple Music or Tidal, that you are pretty familiar with.
I LOVE to do this type of tweaking!
Yes up firing is the worst. I had the prime elevation I got those speakers as soon they put them on the market. They are a really good speaker I used them as a high and on the ceiling where is works the best. But they were to bulky.
Then I fund Polk Audio OWM3 and I sold the prime. I have this Polk and I love them the seat flat on the ceiling with the right bracket you can even angle them and they are not expensive I have four of them.
My current setup I,m using B&W in-ceiling speakers, but before that I had a pair of Elac upward firing atmos speakers…total waste of money. Running them off a atmos capable Denon I heard no over head effects what so ever, even on aggressively mixed UHD discs like King Kong Skull Island. I stayed with them for 4 months trying to tweak them to work until I finally threw in the towel.
Hello Kyle I would like to say I hope that all is well with you there in Ky with the snow and all in the area. I used Onkyo 410s sitting on top of my towers and I didn't hear them and I didn't crank them up at all, so I decided to get another set and I bought a set of speaker mounts and I have installed the mounts on the bottom of the speakers using screw inserts to be able to angle the speakers to the listening area. I installed each speaker in the corners of the room and I put them about 2" from the ceiling and I am pleased with the results they are working for the most part like they should, but I have discovered that you have to use atmos speakers to get the best results because of the crossover for atmos speakers are a very different crossover than the normal standard type crossover. I have a house and I am not going to cut my ceiling for atmos speakers because this theater thing is always changing and I don't know what maybe next.
Question did you run your av receiver speaker calibration again once you changed the speaker placement? Ive had
Dolby atmos enabled speakers for about 2 years. I had the sony ones, now i have the new polk ones. Sony was amazing and the polk ones are even better. I can hear mine perfectly and its insane! Everyone that comes to my place are blown away when I put a dolby atmos movie or demo disc on. I have the pioneer elite VSX-LX304 av receiver and you can adjust speaker placement and distance from listening area and for how far they are from the ceiling. Im not sure why you are having issues, im very surprised, especially since before I first got my dolby atmos enabled speakers i went to a best buy listening room and they had in ceiling speakers and my system at home with my enabled speakers, sound better than what best buy was doing. Also have you watched the video by Andrew jones when he says he prefers dolby atmos enabled speakers over putting them in the ceiling? I have a feeling something in your av receiver isnt set on the right setting and thats causing you the issue. Let me know your thoughts
Everytime you add, remove or change something you run calibration. It's not that there's something wrong, it's the one sounds better than the other and is is far less from dependant
@@Kpaceguy hmmmm i guess I just got lucky with my setup. Maybe my room and ceiling height is perfect for upfiring speakers and thats why I get beyond amazing results. Everytime someone new comes to my place the first thing they do when Dolby atmos kicks in is look at the ceiling and ask, "where are your speakers in the ceiling?" " I hear them but I dont see them!" 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@4tothes25 What is your ceiling height?
@@ralphm923 8ft
I have a question. I also have the Sony Atmos speakers. I have a 5.1.2 system. I have an Onkyo 696 receiver. Now I have the Sony toppers on my surround speakers because I can’t put them on top of my front speakers. So my question is in the receiver settings do I have to select the topper speakers on my surrounds or can I select top middle since I have my toppers pointing to reflect towards the middle of room? I did a calibration of both settings and the top middle sounds better then if I select toppers on surrounds. Understand what I mean?
You are right I have my SVS height firing up I can not hear nothing from them. When I get my man cave done I will place them on the wall. But now nothing
SVS doesnt make upfiring speakers. Theyre strickly height speakers.
hmm...Most soundbars including real expensives have atmos upward firing speakers
This whole bounce off the ceiling shit always sounded like straight bs.
I'm using a Denon AVR-X6700 and all the Atmos speakers have gone on the walls.
This garbage that it'll magically bounce off the ceiling is just that.
It's absolute nonsense. 🤦🏼♂️
I have a regular 7.1 receiver with 4 dipole def techs about 9 feet off the ground and about 5 feet apart.. two mains are def techs 2000s and center is cs9080 powered .. all sound good and spacious but you got me curious about dolby atmos now .. maybe I'll get an entry level receiver this year 🤔
Finally someone who is saying the truth! I have never believed anyone saying that you can have proper atmos with this ceiling bounce installation (soundbars for example). You must sit in proper position and have the right ceiling, height etc. and still I would imagine the effect is mediocre at best. Thx
1st off you need 4 atmos speakers instead of the 2 that you have, that type of speaker is not enough to crank since it's bouning. You also need to change the time alignment for those speakers when you've pointed them up. Also that ceiling it's not smooth so it's very diffused. Also you have that side ceiling on the left reflecting even more instead of It directing like it should to the ceiling. Pointing up is the only way for some folks they just need to know how to do it properly. PS Raising your towers and desktop speaker stands 6" and taking off the grills on your Atmos speakers make a difference.
I have 4
@@Kpaceguy Awesome, try adjusting 5-6 ft difference in the (Atmos) settings and slightly crank it one last time before you go back to mounting them on walls and putting back your old settings to see what I'm talking about. PS I'm looking into some white DJ speaker stands that will probably supplement screwing the atmos speakers to the wall. May help for WAF factor. I will have to figure something out.🤷🏾♂️
@@avh700 I have two upFiring Klipsch RP500SA's on adjustable speakers stands behind my 65inch Sony Z9D. My flat ceiling is just shy of 8 feet high. The face of my RP500SA's is about 3 feet from the ceiling. My two RP500SA is set several DB's higher than my Bed Level speakers. I run 5.1.4.
My two upFiring rear speakers are Focal Evo. My Atmos effects are awesome(I hear Atmos Objects coming from many different places in the Sphere, even objects crawling traveling on ceiling top). I have over 50 4K blue rays discs with Atmos or DTS X. Rest of my speakers are Klipsch. Subs SVS. Paradigm.
My upFirinf Focal EVO's sits on a stationary built cabinet shelf counter. I have been to high end Audio/Visuals stores with Home Theater demo rooms. My choice for the upFiring was a ThoughtOut decision.
@@larrywong7834 I love how you put it behind the TV. It helps the illusion of not seeing the speaker and having the ambience of the atmos (3D sound ) come out at you. Well done!
@@avh700 What he said. And take heed of how satisfied Larry Wong is. Changing the height, the distance, or the angle of the speaker is critical to hitting the listener with the sweet spot. It's like banking a pool ball off a rail.
It's better to do middle top elevation than do upfiring.
Nice video. I recommend the 30 degree angle from the ceiling or on top of the wall like for auro 3d.
Hey kpace could you give me a tip for a good 9.1. Reciever? I wann use 4 height speakers and not only 2 but I don't wanna spend thousands on an avr. At the moment I've got a Yamaha rxv 683. It's a 7.2. Reciever but I wanna upgrade. Any recommendations? Greetings from Germany 👍
Anything Marantz denon or yamaha
@@Kpaceguy right on, love my Denon.
Are you building a closet for Tristan Jones to hide in?
Do you have a video on your speaker system or maybe a budget version of your setup, thanks
I have 100s of videos yes
You know I wonder could it be based on the speaker when it comes to up firing atmos speakers for example could a Klipsch horn be better than a SVS Twitter when it comes to up firing atmos. 🤔
Then again it could be based on how far you need to travel some speakers are more suited for closer range than others. 🧐
It's definitely based on speaker but I've used 3 different brands from the same distance and had similar experiences
@@Kpaceguy interesting I am getting Klipsch soon so I was just kind of curious about that I know it can be subjective from person to person though it still is a interesting result. 😏
I want to know when we talking about ceiling height are we referring floor to ceiling or from the speaker to ceiling? For the SVS height speakers are talking about the speakers facing up toward the ceiling or just facing toward the center of listening area?
From floor to ceiling is usually what people are talking about. But they say 8ft ceilings are best because of the typical speaker height your floor speakers are.
If you are talking about a wall mounted SVS facing down, then floor to ceiling. If you are looking at up-firing speakers, the critical measure is speaker to ceiling, since changing that distance changes the bounce angle.
I just bought some klipsch RPs....I think I'm going to hang them instead of sitting on front towers.
Good choice
How about keeping the speakers in that position, but raising them to 30cm from the ceiling?
How would one do that?
Dolby atmos say in ceiling speakers when they should be heights, 5his to stop them from being sued by Aura 3D.
I just bought a soundbar with 2 up firing speakers built in. It is weird but it’s working, let me explain. In order for me to hear the reflected sound, I have to max out the speaker output (the up firings only) but I can hear it coming form the soundbar instead of the ceiling…… 😮💨😛🤪 so to me it’s not working but those speakers do produce sound so guess it is working? 🤣🤣😂
Wouldn't Audyssey room correction fix the tower Placement volume issue?
It would try. But boosting is generally a bad idea
I am doing the same thing and in the same situation. I have Sony up firing speakers and live in a apartment. I tried to listen to James Bond the other night and could not get any sound at all because with Yamaha you have to calibrate with the microphone and I an looking for that now. So I will let you know if I have the same result
Auto calibration may not work well with upfiring. Crank them up manually, just don't let the overhead get overwhelming. It is supposed to be a subtle addition to the surround, and of course only heard when there are the occasional overhead objects in the movie.
Atmos upfiring speakers suck... kind of ... they are unbelievably angle and room sensitive. I found I had to set my Atmos speakers distance to 52ft (my avr limit), for contrast my other 7 are set to 10feet and even then they are subtle. Ceiling speakers are the way to go
In ceiling speakers are the only way to go.
When a person have that kind of a home theater, they should be in a house, not in an apartment, to potentially disturbing your neighbors. If you're in an apartment, you can't mount in-ceiling Dolby Atmos speakers because of the unit that's above you.
Put a down payment for my house
@@Kpaceguy Congrats. When you move in, you are really going to enjoy your home theater like never before, without worrying about any management restrictions, and potential complaints from your surrounding neighbors about your sound system.
Kpace guy then what is the best place for Atmos..I am planning to add a pair of Atmos stairs.. Where can I place?
Directly above listening position which is not cumbersome to drill holes in the ceiling or place above the screen like you.. Let me know which is the best place
I have same problem like you..I am staying in an apartment..I cannot put holes in the cealing..
Then put them on the wall
How do you wire a so nice all house speaker house stereo system
So putting Atmos speakers high/near ceiling on the side wall near your MLP is better than putting them on the front high ceiling right?
Yes slightly in front and slightly behind angles down above you. Dolbys website explains this well
@@Kpaceguy I can't find it for on walls though, I could only find dolby's in-ceiling recommendations. can you link it?
@@EctoPlasmic If you are doing a 5.1.2, ya, Dolby says your overheads should be off the the side, just ahead of you. Why would wall speakers be any different than in ceiling? The only reason to put a single pair of Atmos up front is if they are up-firing so you can get the correct bounce angle down onto the listener. Just treat you wall mounts like the overheads in the Dolby Guide and you will be OK.
Dolby Atmos? Are we still living in a cave. Bring on Auro 3D bro lol
Is it good enough for those that don’t have any other choice but bouncing?
Yes
Great video
@@jaycastillo9313 I appreciate it
The best is front height and rear height setup
kyle how do you deal with the wiring if you mount speakers on ceiling or are the3y wirelss?
Wire race tracks
@@Kpaceguy ooh I’ve never heard those words will check it out thanks for keeping it real
I can't do much but LOL at the video title, you've clearly shown you're not great at setting up atmos upfiring speakers. did you not bother experimenting with the angle the speakers are at, left at the default angle unless you're sat very close to the speakers the sound will bounce WAY in front of your seating position. Atmos sounds great on my setup with upfiring speakers, took some experimenting with increasing the angle of the speakers but they're working great now.
Had an atmos system for 4yrs. You don't think I've tried everything in the book?
@@Kpaceguy well I'm guessing not, unless your sat so far from your front speakers (if the atmos speakers were placed on top of them) that you can't angle the speakers enough to have the bounce aimed at your seating position which certainly can be an issue with upfiring speakers depending on how large the room is or if the ceiling height isn't that high.
Been running an atmos setup since 2016 with a Yamaha RX-V681 & the cheapest upfiring atmos speakers on the market at the time (Onkyo) and on first install there was no overhead effect at all, searching online on a/v forums I found discussions about increasing the angle of the speakers so the bounce off the ceiling is aimed just in front of your seating position (although not to much otherwise it'll just sound like it's coming direct from the speaker). Another tip was to increase the db for the atmos speakers as they have got more work to do bouncing the sound off the ceiling.
The atmos demos sound fantastic & films that make good use of atmos sound just as good, I have zero complaints about using upfiring speakers but there's a lot more trial & error involved than in ceiling atmos speakers.
@BudgieFan39 I don't even use them this way I have them in the ceiling. I just did it for video purposes
@@Kpaceguy sadly in ceiling speakers wasn't an option so I had to use upfiring speakers but the title to this video is totally incorrect & flat out misleading to anyone thinking about getting a dolby atmos setup & contemplating upfiring speakers, they work just fine.
Excellent info, man. Thanks!
I appreciate it
Could I get a link to those celing brackets? They would be perfect for me!
Svs uses them on their speakers. They come in the box but they may sell it separately. They're designed for their own speakers
I bought Costco kiplisch atmos speakers and Yamaha receiver I really don’t notice any sound difference and receiver tends to drop sound I think my kiplisch system was waste of money and receiver
I wish I had watched your video before I purchased the Klipsch Reference R-26FA speakers.
We live and we learn
Great review and advice. Thanks.
Thanks for watching
Hi what’s the best Dolby atmos speaker to buy thanks.
There's not an answer to that question
Where did you get those ceiling speaker mounts,that i definitely need
They come with the speaker
@@Kpaceguy do you have a link to them?
It sucks because you never calibrated them.
You really think I have all this equipment and never calibrated any of it?
@Kpaceguy by the looks of your videos I would say no. And you say equipment as if its good or something lol. Again learn how to calibrate your stuff. There's many people on RUclips myself included who have elaborate home theater rooms and not just some shotty projector and screen with white van speakers who have tried up firing atmos speakers and they are almost as good as out in ceiling down firing speakers above our heads. Before trying to sound smart actually learn about speaker placement and using a good receiver and using its calibration mic and calibration system. Your speaker tow is wrong. Your placement is wrong and then you wonder why it sounds bad. 🤷
@@darrelldarrell1447 This is hilarious. Always amazes me how upset people are on the internet.
@Kpaceguy only thing that's hilarious is you living in suck a small place trying to make a theater room with bad placement and then bashing on suppliers because it sounds bad. Angry? Far from it. It's been good entertainment. Can't wait until the next video.
Thanks for watching
You also have to account for how bad is that room.
That's the whole point of the video. Rooms differ too Much to go this route
It is a pity that the industry is not honoust about the Atmos tech. Without a good setup of speakers the effect is very, very thin. without good sound engineering of the movies, it is neglectable. Rooms often have many limitations to get it right. Audiophiles have trouble to get 2 speakers set up right. Now we have to setup 8 or 14 speakers at the right position. How on earth would a mortal pull that off? And how the hell can we convince our non-audiophiliac partners to "decorate" our rooms in the optimal manner?
So true. This is why I remain on the sidelines, continuing with 5.1 surround.
"Not honest"? The only thing you said that is accurate is "without a good setup." There are more than enough resources to make a good, simple setup possible for a DIY home theatre. A number of folks on this discussion used the advice of others to change from "it sucks" to "wow, I guess it works." Upfiring speakers and upfiring sound bars are no more of a distraction than surrounds.
Clearly not suitable if treatment is on the ceiling, they wont work at all then i guess 😮
No offense but your apartment doesn't look totally ideal either. 😔 Cramped, popcorn ceiling, a lot of stuff scattered around. The sound may be going wild there.
It's not lol so I don't use upfiring for that reason
I don't understand what's worth watching vs the investment . Seems like You'd spend your money on things that matter.
You do you....
Good video
The only people that claim up firing atmos is close to the real deal is people that either have never heard a good Atmos setup or have no other option thus want to convince themselves that is good. Is not.. Simple as that.
Purpose of your comment, issss?
I have a small room like you and want to add Atmos speakers on my celling so I want to know do I need 4 of them?
I have 4 and won't ever have less
Even though my couch is up against the wall?
@@chrishessey9733 yes used to have mine that way and had them directly above my head
Define "need". You need at least two. If you don't like it, go with 4. Look at the Dolby Installation Guide. You may want your rear overheads just in front of your couch and off to the side.
Reflecting sound is exactly what you don't want in a surround sound system. Want to hear a door knock behind you? Put a speaker behind you, do not try to bank shot a door knock off the ceiling.
Want to hear a bird tweet just a few feet above your head? Put speakers over your head. Want to hear a gun shot to the right side of you? Put a speaker to the right side of you. I believe these speaker makers are doing what they can to reflect our money into their wallets.
Do you have a link to those ceiling mounts?
SVS only sells them with their prime elevation speakers