Dragon: The Type Carried By The Numbers

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  • Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 111

  • @TheMasterBlaze
    @TheMasterBlaze Месяц назад +161

    "This just in! Local mathematician proves the historically powerful (and in-lore highly regarded) Broken type is broken!"

    • @EgregiousGremlin
      @EgregiousGremlin  Месяц назад +31

      an object in motion, stays in motion 🗣

    • @sshadowzlmao
      @sshadowzlmao Месяц назад +9

      ​@@EgregiousGremlina dragon with draco drops a draco

    • @zannebeidt0
      @zannebeidt0 Месяц назад

      Wait a minute… is he a mathematician?

  • @waterierStone
    @waterierStone Месяц назад +100

    I think that draco meteor is the reason special dragons are op like how d dance is why physical dragons are op. You can confidently send a draco meteor because there are only two types that resist or are immune. The only type that has that few bad matchups is Ghost. The best common ghost move, poltergeist, only has 110 power and fails if the user isn't holding an item.

    • @king_of_rats_Monfernep
      @king_of_rats_Monfernep Месяц назад +8

      90% of time PVP opponent has item

    • @rosstastic5213
      @rosstastic5213 Месяц назад +7

      i think you have Poltergeist’s effect wrong? it fails when the opponent isn’t holding an item

    • @nickvang7
      @nickvang7 Месяц назад +4

      How is the attacking move Draco Meteor the special equivalent of the set-up move Dragon Dance?

    • @tezminator
      @tezminator Месяц назад +3

      @@king_of_rats_Monfernep Yeah, but a really common move in battles is Knock Off to exactly remove the item and that's not even counting items that are consumable, like Focus Sash or Booster Energy, so although this is a small number compared to everything else in battles, it's a significant and relevant enough portion to make users of Poltergeist also have another attacking move that can hit foes even if they don't have an item.

    • @king_of_rats_Monfernep
      @king_of_rats_Monfernep Месяц назад +1

      @@tezminator Therefore 90%

  • @et34t34fdf
    @et34t34fdf Месяц назад +42

    I mean, there already was a dragon killing type, all they had to do was to give it dragon immunity, or at very least resistance, instead of Introducing a new, broken typing.
    Ice is just a sad typing, and fairy made it even worse.

    • @boshman11
      @boshman11 Месяц назад +8

      Ice used to be king in Gen 1 along with psychic (and normal). Now look what all the changes did to it…

    • @marioblaze2723
      @marioblaze2723 Месяц назад +9

      Well the ice type was always supposed to be "glass cannon" type, but they keep giving us slow tanks that would work better as steel types

    • @Ritsuemaru
      @Ritsuemaru Месяц назад +4

      Every time we get an offensive ice type it’s broken

    • @tangerinepaint3643
      @tangerinepaint3643 Месяц назад +8

      @@Ritsuemaru I’d rather have a broken offense ice type than an awful defensive ice type.

    • @Magic_Ice
      @Magic_Ice Месяц назад

      @@tangerinepaint3643yes more chien pao to ruin metagames

  • @lasercraft32
    @lasercraft32 Месяц назад +54

    GameFreak needs to stop focusing on Dragon and buff Rock Type... Its one of the worst types (almost every dual type is WORSE when given the rock type) and yet nobody ever talks about it. When debating the worst types, people always talk about Bug, Ice, and Grass, but rarely ever talk about how terrible rock type is!
    Like seriously... WHY is it such a terrible defensive type? I thought rocks were SUPPOSED to be "rock solid," as "hard as rocks," and "immovable as a mountain." :/

    • @ЮрийБогомолов-б8щ
      @ЮрийБогомолов-б8щ Месяц назад +5

      Rock/ground combination sucks the most (4× weak to grass and water + add *low* special defense of these mons and it makes hydro pump a 1 hit ko for them)

    • @Findmeiainthiding
      @Findmeiainthiding Месяц назад +12

      Rock types need some help. The way Ice/Poison/Bug have been getting slightly better over the years.

    • @sashiboop
      @sashiboop Месяц назад +8

      Rock is similar to ice in the sense that its moves are more valuable than the type itself; stealth rock and rock slide could be argued to be the strongest move of singles and doubles respectively, yet you rarely see actual rock types using them! I genuinely don't think I've seen a tera rock pokémon before, and I've seen *tera bug* get use. What a fall from grace compared to their power in gen 1, yet I'm not quite sure how you'd even buff them. I'd say either give them a better defensive spread or maybe increase rock move accuracy when used by a rock type?

    • @lasercraft32
      @lasercraft32 Месяц назад +6

      @@sashiboop At the moment, Rock just has _so many_ weaknesses, and not enough resistances. imo Rock should at the very least be resistant to itself (like come on... have you ever tried bashing two rocks together? It doesn't do much). Its strange that steel can get a whopping 10 resistances while rock only gets 4.
      It would also help if Rock/Ground wasn't such a bad combination. One should be weak to water, and the other should be weak to grass, but not both... If they split the weaknesses between them, then all the Gen 1 Rock/Ground types would still be weak to both, but it would lose the 4x weaknesses.
      And... Well... Here's a crazy idea... It might be a little _too_ much, but what if Rock type wasn't weak to _either_ grass or water? Think about it, WHY is rock weak to those? Water type is (I assume) because of water erosion, but that usually takes a _very_ long time. If you splash water on a rock it won't actually do anything. And grass doesn't make much sense either because most plants can't grow well on rocky surfaces, they can only take root in softer soil.
      That would give Rock type 3 weaknesses and 4 resistances, which is actually pretty average (not sure how much it would impact dual types though). But when Steel/Fairy and Steel/Ghost exist, I don't think it would be too overpowered.
      I'm just throwing out ideas here, though. I'm not an expert on game balance.

    • @aquashuriken1634
      @aquashuriken1634 Месяц назад +2

      ​@@lasercraft32I can see water, but let's not nerf grass, a borderline bad type, to help buff rock

  • @yasuohatsu3374
    @yasuohatsu3374 Месяц назад +9

    Thank you for this vid.
    Yeah even all the way back in 2013 when they threw in the fairy type, I sincerely thought the developers handled balancing the dragon type in a half baked way because shoehorning in a new "counter" type for dragon didn't fix the core issue. It wasn't that dragon was inherently a broken type (well okay being resisted only by steel was a bit much, but that could have been easily fixed by having a few more existing types resist dragon), it's that sooooo many of the high BST monsters, particularly the pseudo legendaries, happened to be dragons. And they often came complete with great movepools, a trusty setup move in dragon dance, and from gen 4 onward a powerful STAB for both attackers (Draco Meteor for special, Outrage for physical)... yeah of course Pokemon like that would dominate, it would be perplexing if they didn't.
    So how did Gamefreak address the the over saturation of high stat dragons? Very, very halfheartedly. Sure, after Gen 5 they stopped having ALL 3 boxart legendaries be dragons... but they still kept making dragon types out of pseudo legendaries, and every gen after still had a dragon type legendary or two. Gen 9 was especially bad, moreso after DLC (looking at you, oh-so necessary Duraludon evolution and Paradox beasts).
    And maybe it's because Dragonite is my favorite Pokemon and the likes of Rayquaza and Hydreigon are runners up... but past few generations when they give us an all powerful dragon type, I'm just unimpressed. Like big deal, we already got perfectly good ones.

  • @igitot
    @igitot Месяц назад +31

    doing arceus' work truly thank you

  • @kanaxaufxanax490
    @kanaxaufxanax490 Месяц назад +30

    14:03 thats not correct. It boosts Special Attack, Special Defense and Speed by one stage, not attack. So physical attacking bug types can not use it

    • @Pi-eipp
      @Pi-eipp Месяц назад +7

      I think he confused it with victory dance

    • @EgregiousGremlin
      @EgregiousGremlin  Месяц назад +11

      I mixed up the stat categories boosted by Shell smash with those of Quiver Dance 😭, but hopefully the math i was implying is still understandable

    • @X-35173
      @X-35173 Месяц назад +2

      ​@@Pi-eippV Dance boost attack, defence, and speed

    • @Pi-eipp
      @Pi-eipp Месяц назад

      @@X-35173 yeah

  • @CratthewF
    @CratthewF Месяц назад +16

    I think it would’ve also been interesting to only consider fully evolved pokemon. I don’t feel that looking at dratini or caterpie is particularly relevant, at least not in a competitive sense. And while i guess there are a few pokemon that are usable with eviolite or for an ability only the pre-evolved form gets, i’d guess that ignoring them would skew the numbers less than including them.

  • @thearrivalcyberseignister8898
    @thearrivalcyberseignister8898 Месяц назад +2

    Dragon is like sukuna, the thing it had going for is raw stats and an exepcional boosting move but then the authors decided that is not enough so they keep giving it massive buffs than anyone else would dream off only to become too strong and having to be killed by a massive convenience

  • @beanburrito4405
    @beanburrito4405 Месяц назад +8

    Meanwhile, Bug type is the type let down by its stats. If you look at the type itself, it’s not even that bad. If it were that bad, then Bug/Steel wouldn’t be considered an elite type. It’s better than Ice and Rock and probably about on par with Poison

    • @yungmuney5903
      @yungmuney5903 Месяц назад +1

      Nah bug is pretty bad. That offensive chart ratio should be a criminal offense.

    • @beanburrito4405
      @beanburrito4405 Месяц назад +2

      @@yungmuney5903 But do consider that it has super-effective damage against Grass and Dark, two very prevalently-typed Pokemon in competitive. Meanwhile, it resists Fighting and Ground, two of the most common attacking types. The type isn’t good, just decent, but it isn’t nearly as bad as Ice or Rock which is very, very likely to be a liability unless you’re a glass cannon. Along with Poison, I’d put it in the same category as Psychic and Normal for just being kinda ok

    • @InsertFunnyThingHere
      @InsertFunnyThingHere Месяц назад +3

      I mean bug is resisted by a good ammount of types and isn't that good defensively even if it has pretty decent resistances, but like yeah if over half the bug types weren't just ass or reliant in a singular gimmick that rarely has to do with the bug type it wouldn't have nearly as bad a reputation as it does

    • @jaschabull2365
      @jaschabull2365 25 дней назад

      Yeah, the fact that it was, like, the one type that had an advantage against psychic in gen 1, but they still aren't usable in gen 1 competitive because the developers decided to give only one of them a STAB attack that wasn't leech life, then gave that one poison type so it stood no chance against psychic types anyway really is a testament to how short an end of the stick they got.

  • @ampisbadatthis
    @ampisbadatthis Месяц назад +3

    its also carried by its solid neutral STAB and lack of weaknesses, especially prior to gen 6

  • @Snickersowaty
    @Snickersowaty Месяц назад +4

    GameFreak definetly need to nerf Dragon, Fairy and Steel type, and focus on buffing typings like Bug, Rock, Grass, Ice (and personally i would love small buff for psychics, since they fell off hard, after being OP in Gen1)

    • @Avianeyes
      @Avianeyes Месяц назад +3

      i feel like dragon doesnt need the nerf anymore as much as it used to, but oh my fucking god why did they make fairy resist bug

    • @sussybeam55
      @sussybeam55 Месяц назад +4

      Fairy need a nerf not dragon 😂
      2 weaknesses
      3 resistances
      1 Immunity
      It can attack 3 types for super effective
      Only 3 type resisted it

    • @goGothitaLOL
      @goGothitaLOL Месяц назад

      @@sussybeam55and all three types that resist Fairy are weak to EQ, one of the most common and used attacking moves in the game since Gen 1

  • @eiknaurjensen7927
    @eiknaurjensen7927 Месяц назад +16

    Seems a bit strange to include not fully evolved pokemon in the stat aggregates. The choice of what to include of course depends on what exactly you're trying to measure, but I think it makes sense to consider an evolution line as one entity, instead of multiple seperate ones, and to represent an evolution line by its final form in these statistics. If you include not fully evolved pokémon into these statistics, you end up skewing the data arbitrarily in favor of single stage pokémon. I find it counterintuitive that the introduction of kingdra in gen 2 makes dragons better, I mean it certainly isn't better than dragonite.

    • @sephikong8323
      @sephikong8323 Месяц назад +4

      I mean, in Gen 2 is debatable as both are EXTREMELY niche in OU, but in Gen 3 it's actually a fact that Kingdra is essentially better than Dragonite however. Dragonite is essentially never seen as it's strictly outclassed by Salamence in almost every way outside of Special Bulk (as Salamence has Intimidate so in practice it has better physical bulk, and even that better SpD is offset by the fact Salamence has access to Wish and is a better bulky walbreaker as a result) as well as Thunder/Thunderbolt and Focus Punch, but those are really minor compared to what you lose by not being Salamence. Meanwhile Kingdra is probably the best abuser of Rain (or at least it's debatable with Ludicolo, Omastar and him all having upsides compared to one another) and as such has a genuinely valuable niche in a pretty good anti meta (but unreliable) strategy which ultimately gives it much more usage and viability than Dragonite
      I think people tend to forget how ........ not great Dragonite was in the earlier gens (and in the worst possible way as it also has way too much stats to be allowed in the lower tiers so it was just perpetually stuck in a limbo of seeing very little play for the first 3 gens, and even in Gen 4 it really took the bans of Garchomp and Salamence for it to come into his own

    • @derrickcrowe3888
      @derrickcrowe3888 Месяц назад +4

      @@sephikong8323 While that's all well and good, this video wasn't talking about competitive viability and was really only looking at BST. Kingdra's 540 puts it near the bottom of fully evolved dragon types, which really shouldn't bring the average up like the video suggests. It's also further complicated by the fact that Kingdra's earlier forms aren't dragon types, so their BSTs aren't averaged into the data.

    • @Ditidos
      @Ditidos Месяц назад

      I think it makes sense because you are going to use the lower forms in the singleplayer stage. It's not just about the competitive scene.

    • @eiknaurjensen7927
      @eiknaurjensen7927 Месяц назад +1

      ​@@Ditidos Like I said, it depends on what you're trying to measure. If you're interested in how strong each type is during a standard playthrough, obviously you cannot just look at final stage pokémon, but I don't think the approach used in the video is particularly good for this either, since it doesn't take into account at which stage of the game each pokémon is available. This is a problem, because what can be considered "good stats" isn't constant.
      Take for instance floragato and drakloak which both have a bst of 410. This bst is great at level 16 when you obtain floragato, but dreepy doesn't evolve into drakloak until level 50. By that point floragato has long since evolved into its final stage, and so has most other pokémon, so 410 bst is now rather underwhelming.
      Clearly, these pokémon are not equally powerful in the context of a playthrough, but they are in a vacuum.
      The result of evaluating every pokémon in a vacuum is that the dragon type ends up appearing the strongest, not because dragons are strong throughout a playthrough, but because they don't show up until the end.

    • @Ditidos
      @Ditidos Месяц назад

      @@eiknaurjensen7927 That's true. This analysis tries to be too generic and cover every situation, which is why it might suffer from other white room math scenarios.

  • @ufailowell
    @ufailowell Месяц назад +3

    should have done this on a fully evolved basis.

  • @mesplin3
    @mesplin3 Месяц назад +13

    Dragon is gamefreak's favorite type. Yeah, it's carried by the numbers. The type itself is just a bit better than normal.
    Also ground/dragon is a pretty good combination.

    • @defintlynoob4263
      @defintlynoob4263 Месяц назад

      Fairy types wouldn’t exist if dragon wad their favourite, and the demonic being that is zacian crowned would’ve never existed to terrorise vgc

  • @shiruotakuno28
    @shiruotakuno28 Месяц назад +7

    Man I love data

  • @goofboy619
    @goofboy619 Месяц назад +12

    Colress RUclips channel? 😳

  • @Paradoxe_0
    @Paradoxe_0 Месяц назад +3

    I think Ghost will be the new “dragon” in terms of brokenness. Sure, everyone talks about fairy dragon, steel and sometimes water needing debuffs, but no one talks about ghosts. it only hits 2 types for super effective, but it’s still better than dragon beating only other dragons. Also considering it’s counters are normal types if they even count, cuz ghosts are also immune to normal, and normal is generally a bad type on it’s own, and the dark type which isn’t bad but suffers from weakness to fighting and especially fairy. Basically, ghost types moves are only resisted by dark types, terapagos, Ursaluna since those are the only ones able to consistently hit ghost types while being immune to them.
    Now, are there any types that could be made to counter ghost ?
    No, cuz as they say, ghosts can’t die. Dark beating ghost is already confusing but any other type beating it doesn’t make sense.

  • @lazybones8962
    @lazybones8962 Месяц назад +2

    1:20 I've never heard someone butcher a name so bad

    • @EgregiousGremlin
      @EgregiousGremlin  Месяц назад +1

      whoever running this channel must be a fraudulent pokefan 🗣️

  • @ThatHollowGuy
    @ThatHollowGuy Месяц назад +3

    Love the music you used, especially Bleach!

  • @Churdizard
    @Churdizard Месяц назад +5

    Good editing cuh

  • @pawandhillon6653
    @pawandhillon6653 Месяц назад +1

    Phenomenal, underrated channel

  • @endy7630
    @endy7630 Месяц назад +2

    Pretty sure the dragon type was designed to be carried by stats. They barely interact with the type chart, but in turn their base stats tend to be higher than any other type, no other type in the game does anything like that at all.
    The real problem with the dragon typing (at least nowadays) is how well it synergizes with a ton of other types. Conversly, pure dragon type pokemon tend to suck.

  • @JakeMshon
    @JakeMshon Месяц назад +2

    Game Freak really had to Nerf dragon types 😔

  • @gabrielespindola4461
    @gabrielespindola4461 Месяц назад +6

    Game Freak: dragon type are too powerfull, weneed to make a New type to nerf It!!! Procedes to make kommo-o, dragapult, baxcalibur, goodra, ultra necrozma, eternatus, miraidon and koraidon.

    • @yasuohatsu3374
      @yasuohatsu3374 Месяц назад +1

      That sums up my frustration since X and Y perfectly.

    • @goGothitaLOL
      @goGothitaLOL Месяц назад +1

      And don’t forget Dracovish, Roaring Moon, Raging Bolt, Gouging Fire, and Archaludon

  • @Deyvid6meme
    @Deyvid6meme Месяц назад +4

    Da dragoon Type

  • @lordinfernape4753
    @lordinfernape4753 Месяц назад +1

    14:05
    Thats not true because boosting moves boost the stat, which is calculated with EVs and IVs, it doesnt boost only the base stat, so the average bug type Pokemon using quiver dance actually gets steonger and outspeed most Pokemon, including Dragons
    Most if not all stat boosting mechanics in this game actually apply calculations on the entire stat instead of just the base stat, this is why for example Regigigas is so terrible, if Sloe Start only halved the base speed and attack in calculations, it would actually br a solid bulky choice bander in lower tiers since 80 base attack isnt so bad, it would be as strong as a Golbat and as fast as a Regi.
    Reslity is that slow start makes it as strong as a Venonat and as slow as a Ryhorn

  • @JFCA_Solar
    @JFCA_Solar Месяц назад

    We do have to keep in kind that most of the dragons at 600+ BST are Ubers thus not usable ALL the time

  • @TDA_REAL
    @TDA_REAL Месяц назад +4

    Dragon 🐉 🐲

  • @spyke7311
    @spyke7311 Месяц назад

    I think the Dragon type's extra form stat boost is a bit exaggerated due to the non-playable Eternamax Eternatus' 1100+ base stat total.
    Overall by sheer stat quantity the dragon type is one of the best types, but overall in a competitive sense, I'd say Steel, Fairy and Water are better types, mostly due to Dragon's lack of usefull defensive utility, due to its Ice and Fairy weakness. I'd say Ghost is a better offensive type due to it's more reliable STABs and less crippling weaknesses.
    Dragon's not a bad type by any means, but it's not top 3 material either.

  • @TheMrParagon
    @TheMrParagon Месяц назад

    This is exactly what I thought when fairies were introduced. Dragon type isn’t broken Dragon Pokémon are. If you let other types be pseudo and make less dragon legendaries every type would be on the same level as dragon

  • @alexpfeifle879
    @alexpfeifle879 Месяц назад

    It is definitely carried by favoritism and high stats, but at the same time I imagine a dragon type Rattata would also be extremely annoying early in the game since it would resist all starter base types including Pikachu 😅

  • @alwkAorie
    @alwkAorie Месяц назад +1

    We doing some math 🗣🧮

  • @lordinfernape4753
    @lordinfernape4753 Месяц назад +1

    Actually dragon dance Reshiram isnt too bad😂

  • @ldmtag
    @ldmtag Месяц назад

    Wait, did you say there exist zero Dragon/Grass pokemon?😮 But Applin line though!

  • @tobiasgund8048
    @tobiasgund8048 Месяц назад +3

    Quiver Dance boosts SpDef, not Att.

    • @EgregiousGremlin
      @EgregiousGremlin  Месяц назад +1

      I mixed up the stat categories boosted by Shell smash with those of Quiver Dance 😭, but hopefully the math i was implying is still understandable

  • @justmusic5234
    @justmusic5234 Месяц назад +4

    I feel like there are too many dragon types nowadays

  • @Reptoslica
    @Reptoslica Месяц назад +1

    Dragon the best type ong

  • @RancidRuffian
    @RancidRuffian Месяц назад +1

    Peak content

  • @deazee2288
    @deazee2288 Месяц назад

    Dragon types is a nepo baby

  • @roi8649
    @roi8649 Месяц назад +3

    yap fest
    (i watched the whole thing)

  • @snakey1315
    @snakey1315 Месяц назад +1

    Good

  • @LeviAuren
    @LeviAuren Месяц назад

    I feel like it’s unfair to use NFEs in base stat average comparisons. Because why would you use them (outside of a few eviolite mons)?
    Just something that’s always bothered me

  • @secondbeamship
    @secondbeamship Месяц назад

    Pokemon never made the types balanced. By their very nature types have more or less supereffective or resistant advantages. If they all were equal then they wouldn’t be different save an aesthetic difference. Pokemon types are more RPG archetypes.

  • @fraudsquad2169
    @fraudsquad2169 Месяц назад +1

    banger

  • @KanderUdon
    @KanderUdon Месяц назад +3

    Ong grass is better than dragon

    • @Mardshima89
      @Mardshima89 Месяц назад +1

      Especially in VGC with the omnipresent mushroom.

  • @deltawavey7535
    @deltawavey7535 Месяц назад

    12:23 You didn't put tyrantrum and tyrunt on there, so there's 9

    • @w1ll0ww1sp_
      @w1ll0ww1sp_ Месяц назад +1

      that's 590+ bst. neither meet the criteria.

  • @Blastosie_Offical
    @Blastosie_Offical Месяц назад +7

    That is singlehandedly the worst pronunciation of Pecharunt i've ever heard

  • @StatPadYT
    @StatPadYT Месяц назад +1

    bruh