Making FFXIV Jobs harder is a DUMB idea, Here's why!
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- Опубликовано: 7 авг 2024
- @XenosysVex footage used - • Xeno Reacts to FFXIV J...
In this video, we dive into why making Final Fantasy XIV jobs harder isn't the solution for improving gameplay. Instead, we explore how enhancing job mechanics and adding depth can make the game more engaging without increasing difficulty. Join us as we discuss the importance of balance and player enjoyment in MMORPG design. Whether you're a seasoned player or new to the game, this discussion is sure to spark some interesting thoughts on the future of FFXIV!
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EDIT:- IF YOU STRONGLY DISAGREE HERE AND ARE CAPABLE OF ARTICULATING YOUR POINTS PLEASE GET IN TOUCH VIA EMAIL OR DOWN BELOW . I AM LOOKING TO INTERVIEW PEOPLE ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THIS CONVERSATION
I appreciate this can be a little contentious but lemme no your thoughts or the direction you would go in the innevitable revist of job design in 8.0 please try to keep it respectable in the comments !
@@MythSamael I picked up WHM this expansion and FELL IN LOVE! And in doing so I believe I have the answer.
The problem is the mindset of players. I am very committed to the game, while I haven't had the opportunity to attempt Ultimates I have a few Savage clears under my belt and I enjoy the process of learning to master a job. WHM is perfect for me because I can keep myself engaged in easier content by challenging myself to always prioritize my oGCD heals so I can maximize my GCDs for damage. Dungeons do not require me to have this mindset. The beautiful thing about FFXIVs game design is that it's up to the player to play the way they want to, but it is also a double edged sword because of players who will only engage in deeper systems when they have no other option. If they can clear as a heal bot with everything put into piety so they can continue to heal bot, they will until the game prevents them from doing so.
I believe WHM, just as SCH was back in SB, is the golden example of what class design should look like. Easy to pick up and play but with many complexities to master.
FFXIV needs to cater to both the low commitment players and the high commitment players and optional complexities in class design is the best way of handling it.
I brought this up with the Viper changes. Are positionals outdated? Yes. Should they be replaced with stuff that's more interesting? Yes. But the problem currently is, the devs are just removing parts of jobs that actually make you do something and they aren't replacing them with anything or they replace them with stuff that is effectively passive like the BLM changes killing non-standard optimization and just forcing you to do the exact same rotation, the same way, always or you don't get the fire ball.
With Viper in particular, positionals are kind of the only thing you have to actually go out of your way to do so it causes an uproar to remove them unless they add something that at least adds some engagement, because a lot of us care more about feeling even a tiny bit engaged over having flat damage and the job goes from almost no engagement to braindead, it feels boring.
I would love for positionals to go if they gave Viper something else to manage or that let you switch up what you do moment to moment more since so much of it is automated.
That's the real issue to me, because they could do it if they wanted to, we have PCT and it feels very engaging without being overly difficult.
I think they need to get gone in order to open up encounter designs, ill die on this hill that difficulty should be in the content u do not the character you are
@@MythSamael That's your opinion, and I agree to an extent but I enjoy a job that makes me do something and/or gives me options that make me have to think about what I'm doing instead of just this autopilot rotation. So to me, if the choice is no engagement or minor engagement with positionals, I'd choose positionals until they can come up with something else to add to keep the jobs from feeling extra boring for me and others like me.
@@mismismismI'll be honest I hardly use the positionals partially because I neither need to do them and they are kinda annoying to do and hell there are bosses where it literally doesnt matter
@@TetsuRiken That's fair, you're entitled to your opinion and to an extent, I agree but there are also a lot that do and as antiquated as positionals are, they are at least something vs nothing. That's my actual issue currently, if they remove them from a job like Viper that is otherwise so automated it needs to be replaced with something that gives the job some kind of engagement IMO.
99% of content in the game is normal mode content, that's why I can't get behind the idea that fight mechanics alone can carry because the majority of content is already basically braindead. They keep removing things without adding so for a lot of us, even something small like positionals, at least keeps us awake doing old content and roulettes. But if they can give those jobs points of choice like how PCT has engaging options in their kit, then I'm 100% for removing positionals, but if they aren't going to add anything, I'd personally rather have something I can choose to actively do for 50 potency rather than nothing. But to each their own.
@@MythSamael the problem with that is once you know the fight, that's it. Fight design in FF14 will never be amazing because the devs design everything to be static. Like if the fight design in this game were engaging and dynamic, you would have a point, but they aren't. That just isn't how the game is design to be.
The way it should be in my opinion is like a dance. The baseline dance is the fight design but it's up to the players to be able add flourishes through engaging class design. There is no reason for two players of varying skill to follow the same rotation on the same job and get the near same result. The higher level player will just get bored of the game because there's nothing more to work on
I personally think positionals are fine as they are, people actively following them should rightly be rewarded with extra damage, but it should still be looked at as a damage bonus when hitting them rather than a damage loss for missing them. For example, Everkeep EX is easily cleared without either melee dps even trying to get a single positional or using true north, but that shouldn't be true for the upcoming savage tier content.
Maybe really what they need to do is change it from flank/rear positions to being behind the boss vs DON'T STAND IN FRONT OF THE BOSS YOU'RE NOT A TANK, rewarding basic, proper positioning in general.
I just think there an outdated obstacle now, I personally dont think lemme run to the side for an extra 30 potency is a good enough reason to constantly restrict encounter design. I think it worked in an age where the engines coudnt support grander fights but thats not the case now
I like this idea. Instead of "+40 potency when attacking from the flank" why not "-40 potency when attacking from the front"
Man, everkeep is a nightmare for positionals, you can only hit them so much because there is so much shit going on you need to pay attention to.
Fights like DSR is the reason why jobs dont have to be difficult to get fun out of the game and solely leave that to fight design. I dont know where people got the idea complexity=difficultly which is just no true at all.
DSR is a prime example aswell . !
@MythSamael for me that and monster hunter generations ultimate serve as prime examples of adding complexity without feeling like you're fighting the game since in that game hunter styles dedicated how your weapon would play/slightly change the moveset of each respective weapon but still made it easy to play which let capcom focus on making the high/g rank monsters the main thing for difficulty. While people still formed stuff like metas and try to tell people what's optimal, like in ff14 you can clear basically any content regardless of playstyle as long as you know what you are doing/understand the monsters moveset.
If your example is ultimates, then you have a poor case. Gameplay should not be engaging only in content that only comes out twice a year at best
@somnus970 I mean ultimates don't have to be the sole examples it's just one that many point to since they are usually well designed fights. You could also point to extremes and savage about stepping up difficulty even if it's a small margin. Even some of the normal content for dungeons and trials in DT are a step up from things that came before which gives me hope for the raid series following the same.
positionals should go because it was for a bygone era where fight design didn't have 50 thousand lasers and ground target aoes happening across 5th dimensional space
coudnt say it better
That let me cook joke was an unreal amount of layers
Yeah XD i always fancied myself a comedy writer
@MythSamael Well it shows!
I've been playing since ARR, positionals are extremely outdated and effectively add nothing to the gameplay. Positional die hards make its inclusion make it sound like you're doing Tekken style wavedashes when it's not. Especially since True North invalidates it or you're on Monk and you have that, plus Riddle of Earth which makes Monk ignore it all together. And as you said, it should be more of the integration with it's system which should be the key factor. Like Warrior & Dark Knight with their meters. And this should lead to a cash out to huge damage or be like Viper and just leave next to no downtime at all.
exactly, u can make a job interesting and more complex with making it so god damn 5d chess your fighting against it and the boss in every fight
i played monk back in HW with that job you EARNED your top on the AGGRO list with the ridicoules Positionals and greese lightning uptime, When stormblood came..... you didnt earn sh1t they f4cked monk with new gap close skills and other sh1t and in my opinion lost their place as top dps even tho they still had their positionals... that was when positionals became a hassle and not a reward..... ATM im playing VIPER with a few positionals... is it fun? YES. is it to much Button Pushing for No Reward? YES. Are The Positionals useful and makes the game play better? NO because of their 2 Charges its just clutter, instead of just making one big skill that did all of it, they weirdly had to make 2 diffrent skills linked to 2 other skills instead of just making one big skill, and for the love of god JP. make more off global cooldown skills......there is notthing more annoying than waiting for the global cooldown to finish to use uncoiled Fury.... ALSO Meleee Jobs with positionals SHOULD ALWAYS Have More DMG than Ranged Jobs except HARD CASTING JOBS were good positioning SHOULD be rewarded with MORE DMG.... Just my smol Rant lool
I agree with most of this but disagree with more damage, No job should be punished for not being another job
Myth: Dragoons jump I guess?
Me, DRG main: *crying in they took away jumps*
Also jumps contributing to the job design in anyway but just doing damage. kek
Wait what seriously :O did they actually take away jumps
@@MythSamael *sad nod* 1 was taken away completely and the other turned into a no damage gap closer TT^TT
@@MythSamael yeah they took shatterdive from us and plunge from dark knights
I think Bard is the poster child for engaging without being complicated. Especially during wanderer's minuet, you've got to keep track of your pitch perfect stacks while spending your meter and heartbreak shot stacks, and making sure you don't overwrite a hawk eye proc. Mages ballad is also very engaging with how quickly you can build up heartbreak shot! Army's paean gives us a nice bit of downtime, only needing to worry about the dot refresh and Hawk eye procs, before bringing us back to burst town! There's such a nice flow and cadence granted by all the different phases of the rotation. More jobs could learn from its example, and integrate more stances that change the feeling of your rotation beyond whether or not you're in your burst phase.
The only caveat of course being that bard is incredibly punishing if you die at all, it would be nice if song cool downs were just a little shorter so you can get back to the proper rotation eventually without sacrificing too much uptime on your songs.
@@Monstercloud9 The point was not that its hard, I know it's not, the point was that every song brings a bit of its own flavour to shift how you're thinking about what you're pushing. Engaging, not hard. Excuse me for being excited about the job and getting to main it after being the designated healer for the entire time I've been raiding
@Monstercloud9 I don't know how you're missing that I'm saying the effects of the songs
that change what you're focusing on
is the engaging part of songs, not the actual song management
Just stepped in and got rid of him, Hes been trolling across a bunch of comments now and ended up using slurs. Its just some kid with a want to argue and naturally no legitimate point. Children these days sheesh x
You've got to use the concept of job floor and job ceiling when talking about these things. I don't think the job floor should go as low as it was in heavensward, doing 30% of your damage because you fucked up your rotation would make balancing content nightmarish and be too much for what the game is now. Likewise though I don't like as much rigidity as is in the game now.
Endwalker black mage losing that bit of wiggle room is a good example, pictomancer has that same amount of wiggle allowed with needing to prepare in advance for burst but depending on the fight can shift around what to use where.
I agree positionals have long overstayed their welcome but that's not the only thing being removed from jobs, Samurai losing hissatsu kaiten is a good example. It's a gap between floor and ceiling that gives you more room to optimise and express skill but even if unoptimised doesn't lower the floor too much. Summoner is a good example of too much simplicity, it has an abundance of instant casts, is incredibly rigid and doesn't have any gameplay quirks to optimise or express yourself. They added a third summon and you can't even decide the order the major summons go. It's too on rails.
The final part is that whilst fight design can be toned up to account for that the bulk of content in the game is outside of that area, dungeons for healer were improved vastly for me this xpac by having to heal significantly in a lot of the bosses. Especially since healer damage rotation has been supremely streamlined over time.
I'm with Xenos anyhow, tone fights down a smidge and tone jobs up a smidge. Also give healers decision making on damage, also bring back the Aero 3 animation.
Yeah i feel this would be a fair compromise
@@PhantaminiumTC Honestly all they have to do is not make 99% of story bosses Tank and Spank encounters. The issue with that is too many players ignore mechanics and if story content required players to actually do mechanics it would further the divide between the opposing player bases.
tbf theyve done better in dawntrail with this. The dungeon difficulty is absolutely a step up
@@CivilChev I think going back from all encounters being tank and spank and introducing more concepts such as add centric, cleave and council fights would allow SE to be more liberal when it comes to balancing jobs. Right now, jobs are basically fully balanced around single target dps, thats the only metric that realistically ever matters in the majority of content with dps checks. WoW in comparison has more situations in which the target count differs on all levels of play, so there is value in different jobs having different dps profiles.
@@MythSamael The enemies hit harder and there is more mechanics to dodge, but if the tank knows the fight and doesn't get hit by mechanics the DPS still aren't required for the clear and in some cases neither is the healer.
The last time I saw a dungeon boss where DPS were required was ShadowBringers. There was a boss that dropped seeds and you needed to pick up the seed and carry it to a square that wouldn't be affected by the boss's next attack otherwise the seed would become a hard hitting add.
Making more mechanics like this is how we eventually fix this problem. Also bring back ailments that need to be Esuna'd.
I would love to see Job Ascension modes for the Jobs. Like Trance from FF9 a limited window during combat where you get a new stronger skillset for doing correct combos etc and filling a bar like a limit break but just for you. Like Red Mage going into Grey Mage mode and having huge blasts that heal and damage for a short time. Not a whole new action bar with 15 abilities but like 2 or 3.
as a fan of ff9 i completely agree, a trance would be fucking more epic then the generic limit breaks we have
8:37
That's the thing I want for melee in XIV. I would love a more in depth combo system, chain combos and stuff like that. Good video. 👍
thank you ! appreciated and i agree
i always thought positional were fine i actually didn't even really know people had a problem with them
casters have cast times that lose more damage if it gets interrupted and they have to master the .5 slide which is kinda like a positional ?
though i have no real attachment to them,
ranged dps feels kinda boring though (maybe outside of dancer).. while i dont play them all that often
sage has always been fun for me, i love the idea that if a shield i put on breaks i get to cast a bigger spell.
sage tbf is a good example of complexity over difficulty. Its not necessrily hard to play but it does have a few abilities that interact in differant ways
Maybe it's cause I come from fighting games but I like when games have like 4 or 5 characters that are harder to immediately pick up and play. A few characters (or classes) there for the people who really wanna push themselves. Sometimes it's just more fun to press more buttons and move around and shit. Also I've never been good at it but I always loved hearing old black mage mains talk about how they were gonna optimize a fight. Not sure how much it's changed but it seems like that's not really a thing anymore which is a shame
that in itself isnt a bad thing, like i said the problem is when people want it rewarded. Because then u create a situation where u wanna do the most damage u HAVE to play those jobs
I also think positionals need to go. They're from a different time. They're an outdated mechanic, like squadrons. Fights weren't nearly as complex as they are now back when positionals mattered.
I've been playing red mage since it was released and I feel like they did a pretty decent job of making it more engaging and interesting without necessarily increasing the difficulty. But I don't see how they could do this on a whole across the board without revamping the entire combat system and all the content to accommodate it. A couple of things I wished were different was the way materia was handled, and the limit break system. Both of these could have made the game so much more interesting. For instance, every player having an individual limit gauge that either makes them go super Saiyan for 30 seconds, or does a badass attack, or gives them access to a new combo, or whatever. And this limit gauge would be filled a tiny bit by just normal play, but more so by successfully completing mechanics, And would deplete a bit for each failed mechanic.
Then the material system. I wish it was more like FF7. Sure you could have some passives on there, but damn, it would be cool to suck it a wind materia into my sword and be able to do an extra 10% wind damage, or throw on a quake materia and gain access to an Earth based AoE attack that I didn't have originally. Or be able to equip a gravity materia and then make myself float for 6 seconds. Unfortunately, this just isn't the game for that. It's way too focused on static combat design and everyone using the same burst windows, which is evidenced by the fact that the only way they can think to make content more interesting is to just throw in more mechanics and stack them on top of each other.
Some very good points !
I think it'd be nice if there were more options that didn't have as much impact on performance. Less optimization and more expression. It sucks when you want to be a pyromancer but *must* mix in ice attacks or smth.
Or on the flipside, more abilities that are boosted based on the scenario. Similar to positionals but a bit more dynamic, like something that does more damage to stunned targets, or to enemies about to attack (like the Counter system in fighting games like Tekken).
@@Poppy_AndFriends really good suggestions ! Anything to make the combat more dynamic that isn't just run 3 yards and hit side
@4:00
Oh endwalker monk. God I miss it.
I've seen other games do that kind of cross job combo and it works in those games but in an mmo it might as well just be a mug-reskin. Because (in the example given) they'd have to make element resistance matter again.
Oh i agree completely i was just using other examples, I no that kinda comboing is a pipe dream
As one of the two dragoon mains, I can confirm, I just think jumping is really fun . XD The animations are cool. But for real, I agree with your points. Thank you for the thoughtful insights and the commentary. I know I would never have dreamed of trying to even play some jobs if they were super difficult to master, let alone trying to do harder content (and hey, look at me, prepping for Week 1 DT Savage prog! Couldn't have imagined that when I was a sprout forgetting what a Tank Stance was!). And casual players are the lifeblood of the game; it amazes me how some hardcore raiders forget that they're kind of a minority of the player base (especially when, in my experience, 90% of the time it's the Heaven's Legend eating the floor because they underestimated how much daamge that AOE would do in a normal dungeon). Not saying don't make content for the hardocre players but that fine balance between accessibility and difficult fight design is what keps the game engaing and alive for everyone involved.
Sorry, er, I mean, man your opinion is wrong, what's wrong with positionals, make me weave fiffteen oGCDs between my basic attacksa and do circuits around the arena or I'll riot :')
Ah yes thank you for the correction at the end, i needed more non sensical comments in my life XD
naa we need so many abilities we need a 4th Hotbar filled with Abilities.
i cant believe i didnt mention the fact that they cant just keep adding buttons every expansion XD
Jobs aren't hard to play because of positionals, but because almost all jobs suffer from buttonbloat.
You can't expect a normal player to handle 30+ hotkeys just to play your damn class.
Viper is the perfect example how to do it, i don't even want to play a lot of jobs without pcombo anymore, it is just uncomfortable to handle so many buttons when it is not neccessary
I think you hit the nail in the head considering that Pictomancer doesnt exactly play itself and is quite dynamic.
Sure you have a single combo button (Which shouldve been a standard for majority of jobs tbh because... it is kind of pointless to keep tank combo strings in separate buttons.) but your decision making is on when you throw out your damage tools outside of burst windows since you will be hardcasting and weaving in between.
There is also Tempera Coat which rewards you like Sage when shields pop. It isnt mandatory but it was a nice thing to have.
The biggest thing I think Picto did right is the fact that you always will have to be aware of when and where you do your burst and you collecting your creatures overtime.
Viper on the other hand... they werent kidding about it being a Press the Shiny button because the job requires you to make sure you dont overcap. But there wasnt anything interesting considering it plays almost adjacent to reaper.
Oh god i can gush about picto for hours but ive loved the job before this version existed so im bias. But no i agree with u the combo thing especially and i cant help but feel like the combo button was a thing on all jobs that got reversed when people fucking cried about it
@@MythSamael I'd wish for more jobs like Picto where you just have to manage certain things where you don't have to stuff ALL of them in one combo to play competently.
ATM the issue why most of every job plays the same is due to how most jobs follow a template rather than just use the template as a reference.
A single combo button would require alot of redesign for a majority of classes to be fun. It works for picto because it effectively makes the filler more interesting and has alot of mechanics build around it and it works for Viper, because again its a fun jump btween both combo lines with other mechanics happening regularily to accompany it.
But imagine Reaper with a single combo button. It would be miserable.
@@shizachan8421 TBH Reaper's more about their gallows/gibbet on their fillers. Fundamentally speaking. There is no real reason to keep single string combo buttons separate.
If anything it means that there should be stuff that is in the filler more than ever. Again. Similar to Picto where you are all about maximizing your Muse skills and timing them to synchronize without overcapping.
To further add to this. That is I think should be integrated into job designs and reworks moving forward where you should be more kept to more than just a 3 button string in your filler because... doing the same 1-2-3 over and over again is no different from healers spamming 1 dps button.
Which is why I think making more interactive stuff in the filler instead of making the filler just 3 buttons and an oGCD is one healthy direction that they can take moving forward. Or make the actual 1-2-3 more interactive. TBH the combo system is cool n all but it only will work well if there is ways to make it actually interactive.
Like Monk which is a cool class to play but it constantly gets shafted due to how tight its execution is.
Fk positionals running around like an idiot for 50 more dmg is stupid af. What do hard jobs even mean?.. Muscle memory kicks in after a week anyways.
Yeah there is so many people staunchly defending positionals as fun, but that run 3 yards and hit his but is the reason fight designs are limited -.-
@@MythSamaelthey should give them to 1 job and be done with it, give every fight that matters the closed circle so you don't need to design around it
As someone who played caster last expansion and refused to play summoner, it was really frustrating. I absolutely hate playing the job after the rework, and though I definitely agree that there need to be some easier jobs that are accessible to play, EW summoner was an awful addition to the game as it pushed out other casters into oblivion for endgame content. It is really unhealthy when one job has more clears than other jobs in the same role combined due to completely removing the thought process of rotation or, well, casting while still filling the caster slot. Some of my friends got rejected from savage/ultimate statics for not agreeing to play summoner, and myself in some non-pf groups I was told to swap to summoner. I got lucky with my current static that does not care which of the casters I play as long as I have fun, but SE really need to do something about summoner going forward.
I dont mind it since its rework but yes it is a great caster option for high movement fights so i can see why it would create a bias in progression which I agree is a bad thing when players enforce it .
@@MythSamael I'm very curious to see how caster balance will look like starting with the upcoming Tuesday, as currently picto is everywhere due to being shiny and new. Personally wonder if people will start blacklisting picto and black mage in pfs like they did with black mage last expansion, even though it was doing a lot of damage. It is a general thing that people will go for a path of least resistance, just hope it does not overshadow other jobs again.
blacklisting is litteraly why i created this community static, Sick of the bs people spread about needing add ons and having to play certain classes its all pure cope by bad actors ruining the game.
On one hand I agree on the other hand I do think difficulty has its place in the game for both job & combat.
Stormblood encounters was the perfect mix of job difficulty and combat encounters. The only drawback was that there was old systems still tact into the game at that point (ie depuffs that certain classes put on the boss),
Misshapenchair is probably the worst creator (because his whole stance is they took away that was a button bloat) who has complained about the simplication of XIV jobs and hasn't really put anything forward on how to fix it. Although to his credit has mention that difficulty does not always mean fun.
I liked stormblood but not enough to really change my stance, I think difficulty should be concentrated in the content you do
@@MythSamael Agreed, on this not everything has to be a complete sweat fest...and because this game is primarily a PvE game there's really no need to complete against other players. Yet other players try to find competition in a game that barely has any to begin with.
Sure PVP is a minor thing in the game but we dont even talk about it. Raiding again its all about the PvE experience and players should not be forced into playing a META comp just to clear content.
seem like the way they make the jobs harder is to just keep adding more buttons. which certainly makes it harder to find more space on my cross-hotbar but aside from that...
tbf thats a problem in itself, they cant just keep adding buttons XD
@@MythSamael if they add any more buttons to AST or SCH I'm gonna have to start deleting low-level actions
Two things you DO NOT want Square to do: Increase the difficulty of the game (remember what happened in Gordias)
Make jobs very difficult to play + what I previously mentioned.
I think they need to remove positionals but make the jobs more fluid and interactive. Bring back dots and more supportive abilities.
I agree. and double agree on gordias
Classes aren't meant to be difficult to use in an MMO - infact most games are made to be deceptively simple but require advanced skill/player knowledge to execute at a high level. (FPS, MOBA, RTS) Even Fighting Games have started to address simplifying of controls for mass appeal or if its Tekken the controls are simple but the execution and understanding of the game comes from playing.
In MMOs however we have a spectrum of players.
Casual - Softcore - Midcore - Hardcore - Elite
Now a Hardcore player has done current Savages and Ultimates, if you're playing WoW they are a Mythic Raider, They got a good Mythic+ IO score, good parses, good gladiator ranking.
Elite players are world first raiders or world first contenders.
Most elitist complaints about an MMO come from a sub-section of Hardcore players who think they are Elite or even Midcore players trying to pass off as being hardcore.
Where as an actual Elite player thinks about (How can I get more people into doing the stuff I love to do)
An Elitist will think (how can I make myself more challenged and separate myself from everyone else)
coudnt agree more!
I think the way to add more complexity is to take the skills that just do damage or just reduce it and add interesting secondary effects to them. For example, Unmend and the Enhanced Unmend synergy (also give us back plunge not whatever this useless dash shit is). Add an MP heal equal to about 75% of a siphon strike and apply a DOT to an enemy, let's call it Hemhorrage. If you expend Dark Arts to empower an Edge or a Flood, detonate the DOT in an aoe, inflicting a 10 second vulnerability up debuff to the enemy and allowing all allies to heal for the damage done to the enemy while the debuff is active, let's call that debuff Sacrificial Brand. Have more abilities interact with Dark Arts in general. Dark Mind and Dark Missionary, for example, can now give a bit of a shield if you're holding onto a Dark Arts charge, or Carve And Spit can become an aoe.
Notice how this affects the synergy. Instead of just the usual rotation, you now also have a reason to use unmend more, in a way that benefits the entire party instead of just a dps gain for yourself. Yes, it does do damage, but that's to reward you going out of your way to branch your rotation, and not to just insta-weave your charge away the moment you get it. Suddenly, it's not just 'You get an extra attack, lucky you.', it's basically a stance.
Exactly that and follows the main point of my video - You can make jobs more interesting without making them infuriatingly difficult
I feel like in DRK's case there is the elephant in the room that the job redesign for Shadowbringers was just a complete and utter failure. It removed job identity from Dark Knight and has it ever since left as a style over substance job where the core is basically just warrior with more weaving. For the last years, its double weave intense burst period was basically all it had in distinct gameplay identity, while the gameplay outside of that was incredibly stale, this became super clear now in Dt, once they removed some of that ogcd load and therefore also decreased the business inside the burst.
old DRK had a better foundation to tweak and change. I personally also don't understand why they removed blood weapon instead of returning it to its old version, where it could be an interesting and unique spin on the typical tank 1 minute dps cd, by increasing speed and ressource generation instead of flat damage.
@@shizachan8421 I agree, I feel like they've been progressively casualizing it more and more for some reason. It doesn't make sense, either, because it's ENDGAME PLAYERS they're affecting, who already got used to the mechanics and have been asking for the ability to do more in terms of versatility and complexity. Instead, it's just been net-nerfs and oversimplifications.
I honestly am beginning to suspect part of why DRK keeps getting shafted is the community circlejerk around TBN. The way some people talk about it, they make it sound like it's the only reason they play that job. A basic ass shiekd that gives them ONE MORE OGCD to weave and they're talking about it like it's the second coming of Minfilia.
@@shoebill4887 Honestly, I think the double weave heavy burst wasn't good for DRK either. Tanks just should have this intense double weave periods as this prevents them from being able to push their mitigation without ruining their entire rotation. The engagement should come from other places and more opportunities to single weave inbetween, see GNB. Old DRK in my opinion had a strong foundation, they could have simplified it more and made it more accessible without ruining the entire job by making it a copy of warrior
And TBN is problematic because at this point, it isn't even that superior to other tank mits and DRK is still taxed for it.
@@shizachan8421 I fully agree
Meanwhile the worst timeline, machinist being one of the more difficult jobs AND putting out bad dps.
The idea at the end of jobs effecting each other on the battlefield would have to be handled very carefully. There was a similar system up until Stormblood of certain jobs being able to apply piercing/slashing/blunt damage debuffs to enemies. That system was rightly scrapped due to it effectively enforcing certain party compositions for optimal gameplay. Any attempt at a similar kind of system would have to be designed in a way that avoids creating an objective meta.
Oh i understand that, was just spitballing suggestions
Doesnt help some job gadges feel like they just exist to show your actually doing somebut its tied to only one action (looking at you scholar). I wish they added more ninjutsu to weapon skill movesets like raiton to the gap closer or the no gap closer. (Gods they should have gotten rid of one of them.) Anyways jobs should have their own little feel to how they work. Im fine with jobs that are easy to pick up and arguably harder to master. But in the end as long as the hot bar bloat isnt making me wish i can roll in some nuclear waste to hopefuly grow a third hand... Or foot to do rotations... What? Id make thay extra limb do work...
im still salty that all the other jobs didnt get the combo button viper and picto got. litteraly why not you NEVER use the base combo in any other order ( special exception to samurai & monk )
Jobs need to be playable for everyone and not just ppl making an PhD in it.
And i say that as someone who loved HW mch and drk.
But i understand why the changes happend.
I just wish that they get some kind of rework because the feel like war clones.
Right now i enjoy vpr
Its fast flashy and good to use.
Difficulty should be adjusted with the fights not the jobs and they seem to go that way
Spot on !
I do not agree with people arguing harder class needs more damage; as some other watchers have pointed out, look to fighting games - there are a wide breadth of extremely simple characters, and more complex/technical characters, but the complex/technical characters aren't better, and sometimes aren't even 'good', theyre just much harder to pilot. People like that design, because it is fun to learn, and you have more to master. No one cares about the reward of their character being better, they care about the reward of doing cool stuff that not just everyone can do. I think ff14 could do the same with jobs; we can have some more difficult, some much simpler, and still feel rewarded for doing cool stuff with the hard job, not rewarded with higher DPS.
I understand you but i feel like it is a hard comparison to make cause thats not really a team game in the sense that ffxiv content is. and a static leader in pf sees 2 jobs with the same output but he knows that idk what 1/4 dragoons for example arent good at the job cause its difficult in this scenario he can and will veto we have warcraft as an example of this.
@@MythSamael Is your argument to make jobs simpler than they currently are, or to not increase their difficulty beyond where they currently are? I am having a hard time figuring out where you stand on 'current' design, other than positionals. Do you think rotations of current Dawntrail 100 jobs are too hard?
no no im perfectly willing to accept jobs needs looking at and they are on 8.0 my stance hear is more as a reponse to those saying jobs should be more difficult
@@MythSamael I think we are mostly on the same page; I think some jobs are too simple atm, but the ones that ARE a bit more involved are fine.
i believe they should start thinking outside the box in job design. Every job within their roles just feels the same to me.
i agree, id like to see more interesting core mechanics
We dont need harder jobs we need harder fights. More off the wall mechanics and one off systems like we see in a lot of ARR dungeons where they were just throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks. Sure not all of it was great but it was memorable and engaging because you had to think anf engage to figure out the boses gimmick.
I agree completely, you shouldnt have to fight a boss AND yourself
Yea multiple iterations just turned fights into dancing around while pressing dps. arr they still believed in doing other stuff... like firing a stupid Cannon at a dragon... I still miss the old version of that dg
I'm probably the one special weirdo who likes positions but thats cause I come from a Xenoblade background... I kind of wish they actually mattered and gave a big OOMPH! to you hits that's noticeable when you follow them.
They used to and people hated it, fights were more boring for it. I get some people like the whole run slightly to the left for 30 more potency but its a barrier to better fight designs
Jobs really don't need to be difficult to be engaging or fun. Take Red Mage as an example. Its core is very simple: cast spells, keep balance, fancy sword stuff, do flips. But it is *so fun*.
Playing since ARR, and holy moly has every changed, fights included. For mechanics to continue evolving and be interesting, I think positionals need to go.
Couldn't agree more.
Watch the devs actually make jobs harder only for the community to either complain it’s too hard or just abandon the job completely
tbh i think making them "harder" is not even an option for them considering the amount of feedback they ignored for a few more simplifications this expanion and some people will cry about anything
@@MythSamael fair
I know we already debated this in the Discord, but I still maintain that positionals aren't that big of a deal. I don't consider it a damage tax because you're not losing anything by not doing them. They are there as a bonus for putting in the effort. Are they outdated? Sure. Is it a big enough deal to fuss about? No. If you enjoy them, do them, if not, ignore them. This is a topic that I feel like people just wanna have something to complain about. That being said, I appreciate your stance on jobs finding a balance of being complex enough without becoming too difficult. Complexity does not have to mean difficult.
Positionals are the reason they cant expand fight design they add nothing. Also you lose potency for not doing them,,,that is a tax
@@MythSamael I guess it's a glass half full/empty thing. I see it as gained for doing it, not loss for not.
If your progging and fail a damage check hitting 0/28 positionals we've got problems cabrone.
The biggest problem with the want for more complexity or even difficulty in classes is due to the huge difficulty gap between story content and high-end duties.
Seriously, you're playing two COMPLETELY different games! Story content can all be won through attrition. So long as the tank is really good and or the healer and tank know the fight, everyone can get a clear even when the DPS don't do anything. It'll take longer, sure, but it can be done.
High-End duties change that completely by having an enrage timer and a damage down debuff from failing mechanics. Now it's no longer a battle of attrition. Now you actually need to have an understanding of your rotation and how to play the game, which is something you're NEVER required to do outside of High-End duties.
The biggest issue is when people finally understand High-End content is a different game but they still have to engage in story content to progress in the MSQ and/or keep up with their weekly tomes since their BiS is based off of both Raid Gear and Augmented Weekly Tomes Gear. These players are bored to sleep doing story content because the skill ceiling required for story content is LOWER than the skill floor required for High-End content.
So long as these two commutites have to continue to interact with each other this debate will be unending.
I understand both sides of the positional argument. When doing story content positionals is an optional optimization that can be used to keep your brain active during the content, but in High-End duties I can understand the frustrations of trying to do positionals on fights that require a lot of kiting and dodging precise mechanics.
Someone said this already and I absolutely agree, I think StormBlood was the best balance we've seen of combat complexity and class complexity.
Yeah stormblood seems to be a popular middle ground for sure
Harders jobs are needed. Positionals are not, outdated af. Doing top was fucking boring on caster and ONLY exciting on blm for p6 and once you timelined it, it was boring as well. I then did melee in the fight and oh god it was so boring. Only monk had somewhat any opti and even then it was meh. Problem is, classes are so streamlined that once you know how to play it, you can fit the same exact rotation in almost every fight and it works just fine. Classes need some type of excitement, a lot of them are just afk gage dumps now with barely any management. Thats why EW monk was like the few exception of any complexity but that was pushing it lol.
i disagree, you can make jobs more interesting without making them more difficult. More difficult jobs gatekeeps casual players. More interesting jobs with more difficult encounters is a superior design for a game that is litteraly designed to cater to many
Why does gatekeeping casual players matter they don’t do any meaningful content no matter how easy they make the jobs anyway
Something something something comment, something something something FFXIV. You know for the algothingy YT has.
Haha awww Ty
People complain about class/job design and balance in all mmorpgs, and always will. But they all keep playing regardless. I am in favour of a big change in the way jobs are played, but I couldn't care less about how "difficult" they are, I prefer the difficulty to be in the encounters, not so much the buttons I press.
At the moment, the difference between an experienced player and a new player is painfully obvious, with the experienced player often doubling the dps of the new one. To make jobs harder will just increase the gap between these two groups.
The double DPS is an exaggeration though i agree with the larger point
possitionals arent that bad on monk from my experiance with it so far *my monk is only lv80 atm could change later dunno tho* but i have a back 123, an aoe 123, and a flank 123 and due to how monk works i can adapt my combo based on my possition but on viper its sort of a clusterfuck and so i just use true north.
I understand there easier to manage now i just think the system itself is outdated and needs throwing out.
I am literally on the verge of dropping astrologian because of the change to the card system
yeah my friend dropped astro aswell for a similiar reason
I always ask the same question, if you think a more difficult battle job makes things better you must be someone who wants more difficult crafting jobs and macros removed so you do it all by hand too. Dynamic choices and taking advantage of small changes to the moment that are rewarded, not adding more 1 2 3 combos.
coudnt say i tbetter
@@MythSamael They added more crafting buttons, I don't see anyone on the forums praising SE about all the new complexity and options for crafting. Revist though for gathering is great though.
When you learn that the crafting solver plugin has 1.2 million downloads since its update from dawntrail that might be telling what people think of bloated jobs final fates are. I think that is mainly the reason crafting jobs are not complained enough about with there design is because everyone who does it has the plugin doing it or the macros to side step the process as much as possible. The crafting jobs are not fun at all, complex with a lot of options sure but I do not look down on anyone who uses macros they looked up online, we have better things to do.
The problem is that they can't make the jobs more interesting or less homogenous without sacrificing balance.
I agree that WoW has had some of the best designed classes of any MMO ever. There's been some chronically bad ones too but something like Legion Fire Mage is pretty much the gold standard for MMO class design in my opinion.
What makes WoW classes fun to play is the perception that you're breaking the game and they achieve this largely through procs and varied damage profiles. Getting several crits in a row on Fire Mage feels good. Warriors spamming execute feels like you're getting away with something you shouldn't be. AoE classes that get to go HAM on add phases is just straight dopamine. Even if your class isn't topping the meters all the time, if there are situations where you can go off, it makes it feel fun to play.
The balance in XIV is so much closer than in WoW because all the gear, and all the damage profiles are tightly controlled by the devs. Everyone aligns their burst during 2 minutes now. The most variance you have is for classes that can pool their resources for specific phases. If they wanted to make classes more like WoW, they would also have to radically change their boss design to accommodate it, otherwise people would only play the highest DPS job that would naturally arise from the imbalance.
I disagree with this, I think they can make the jobs significantly more interesting without worrying about balance. You can re structure the core of a class within a margin of era without destroying the balance
Ummm agreed. All there is to say.
Complex vs simple is a weird goldilocks issue
If complex jobs deal too much damage then simple jobs get left behind, but if they don't deal more damage then simpler jobs become more popular because they are less risky.
That said I don't think the answer is to just have uniform complexity, the answer is to reward both for good playing but have the jobs that are more complex have a bit of extra damage, and party support.
Speaking of Dragoon, it's a more complicated Job then viper. There are more things to manage, animation locks, and you can screw up your 5gcd combo. It probably should be doing more damage then viper... on the high end of things. Or as a reward let the Dragoon buff the party or self heal itself more when the player is performing well.
I will just never agree to any form of damage reward for a more complex job, A player should never be punished for a job choice
@@MythSamael That's where it gets sticky.
If you have a more complex job and a simple job and the result is the same... the player who picked the more complex job is the one being punished.
So either all jobs need to be the same complexity, or there has to be a balance struck where all jobs can comfortably clear all content but the jobs that require more investment can do a little better as a result.
@@mechaulfr9600I agree with this as long as the benefit is slight to not be detrimental to the idea that every job can clear content. Tbh, I think each job having their own form of unique complexity on top of a standard rotation that, when engaged with, provides some sort of buff/bonus/utility in the fight would be good. Most of these buffs and bonuses and utility buttons are relegated to a single ogcd you pop and are done with though. Figuring out how to make the same thing a larger part of a rotation or series of buttons pressed would feel really good imo. I'm talking like Scholars' speed boost - it's cool its there, it isn't necessary to clear content, but it does make some mechanics easier to do! Figuring out how to make that happen as part of a greater rotation or unique class system would be cool imo.
Edit: I think it would be cool because of OTHER buffs or things scholar could do would also need some sort of larger interaction than an ogcd to make happen, it becomes a strategic choice for the scholar on what to give the party since both can't be done at the same time. Not every ogcd needs this treatment ofc, as I think it would make things too difficult rather than making interesting complexity, because players do need the flexibility of core pieces of their kit being available easily (ogcd heals for instance, red mage ogcd for auto-proc, etc.)
The people who want more difficult jobs absolutely dont want the old way of no flank no combo on the fights we had this expansion.
Honestly I'd love to talk about ideas and such but it ends up being too long for a comment lol. Appreciate the video on this!
haha its why i made the video , it is a long conversation and its not easy to have an articulate anywhere, Im already struggling to keep up with peoples various counters in the comments
@@MythSamael I think it shows the community actively are thinking in how to fix it or ideas at least. Pct and vpr being such well designed jobs shows what we could have but there's still that difference in complexity of players that needs to be talked about.
Two words: Healer Strike.
This is what you get when you make every job too easy, powerful, and accessible. The bottom line is that the other roles have to suffer for it.
No one suffered from the fake healer strike.
I disagree completely, I also mention nothing on power. The only point of this video is complexity > difficulty.
Hard agree
If anything, they should just make the content harder
Exactly this, you shoudnt have to fight against your job and the boss. put all that design dynamic on boss fights and make them more epic
I completely agree and I think that there are a lot of gatekeepers that actually have the view of "well if you don't like it, then don't play it" or they just call people noobs because they don't want to spend every waking moment optimising their character and job, newsflash, I have like 3 MMOs that I play and I don't want to devote too much time optimising a character when the game doesn't even have any content that I want to do worth optimising.
Personally I love the viper job, but like all melee jobs, I think positionals are aids and I agree that they limit encounter design.
I'd rather a more simplistic job design with some engaging class mechanics and then have a Mythic+ or Fractal like system that encourages you to play the more simple job design in harder content, rather than make the whole difficulty being job design in easy content.
@@Monstercloud9 Optimising class: Most of the classes you haven't been playing 100 levels. That's a false assertion. Perhaps I find optimising a class less engaging than optimising the individual fights.
"Also you arguably only have to learn the class once" - False. Challenging class design means you need to spend extra mental load to keep performing with the class on many different fights, which as the video OP suggests, means they need to simplify fight design. I would rather more simplistic class design with more challenging fight design.
As classes become more challenging, if you make the fights more challenging you start to see less engagement (this happened with raiding and Mythic+ in World of Warcraft).
Yeah your more in line with what is the average ffxiv player - Difficulty should be tied exclusively to the content u do, You shoudnt have to fight your character and the boss
If I may ask, what is actually wrong with "If you don't like it, don't play it"? If you don't like a job but others do, you should look to another job that might be more your style rather than try and take others' fun. Sure, it might be an issue if you can't find *any* jobs you like, but I find it perfectly okay if not everyone likes every job, so long as everyone can find a job that they do like. Or am I misinterpreting what you meant?
Also re: Optimizing Jobs, I find it a good way to get enjoyment out of content I don't find engaging and would be disappointed if I found out I was doing exactly as well as I could with little thought beyond "What leads into what?" (which, for me, takes like two to five minutes per new skill unlock when leveling and thirty minutes tops if I got a job like Picto/Viper right when I unlock to get to a point where my rotation feels "acceptable"). If you find certain content too "easy"/uninteresting, your job can make up the difference by trying to get closer to the skill ceiling, but that only works if you haven't already hit it.
Also also, quiet note: I personally advocate for "more difficult" (read: higher skill ceiling, low skill floors are good) jobs at least partially because I am fine with kinda sucking, even for my whole game time. I was not a good Summoner from the time I unlocked it through to like five or six years later when I bothered to learn how to play it well in ShB because I didn't want to completely disappoint my first raid group and even then I still wasn't good. I was only good in EW and I chalk that up to the skill ceiling being too low.
@@varia2354 "If I may ask, what is actually wrong with "If you don't like it, don't play it"?"
The issue with the 'if you don't like it don't play it' is not only a shit attitude (everyone is entitled to their feedback) but if you say that enough of the time it leads to critical shortages of players playing a job / class (eg. this happens a lot in WoW). Then what you have is entire classes that get basically no changes and don't keep up with the rest of them and just get left behind (shaman, looking at you). On top of that it just makes people not want to play the game if you constantly tell them to "go play something else".
"but I find it perfectly okay if not everyone likes every job"
If a job is too difficult for a majority of people to enjoy the content, they'll stop playing the content. What if I love the aesthetics of a job but because of the BS mechanics of a job i'm unable to participate in more content, that's 1 less person doing the content and over time this leads to attrition of the game, which is the reason that the developers should listen to feedback en mass. Not everyone has to like a job and that's ok (not everyone gels with the aesthetics or basic playstyle of a job), but if it's purely because it's overly difficult and unfun, I think that's where the class design should be looked at. But I guess some people like when only 2 people play their job so they can be special snowflakes /shrug
Look at the end of the day I don't care what Squeenix does because I don't do content that matter, but I constantly hear people bitching and moaning because people aren't doing the content because they're bored, well they can't make more high quality content that people can do if they make jobs so complicated that the JOB is the difficulty rather than the CONTENT, but hey man, you're entitled to your opinion just like the rest of us and its up to square to decide what they action and what they don't.
69th like. Nice.
niceeeeee
Why are positionals that bad?
You just need to move...and you even have True North, c'mon
Because that move 3 yards to the left for 30 more potency that u wont even no that u have landed properly or not thanks to poor feedback and built in server latency is litteraly a BARRIER to better boss fight designs. c'mon
@@MythSamael They could make it matter more, making you gain ( not lose ) 100 or such potency by correctly placing yourself, making the fight engaging *and* rewarding players who perform well
ezpz
The problem isn't the positionals, it's that they've been made nigh irrelevant ( unless you're parsing ) to accomodate for players who do not want to be moving around in the fight
As for poor feedback any visual queue can help on that, and server latency is not something we can change i think(?) but don't take my word for that, who knows what SE is cooking
Im assuming u didnt play back when positionals mattered or ud see this as a horrible idea that didnt work
Poistionals and the ranged tax are antiquated concepts from a decade ago, both should be eliminated from gaming.
Add the invul tax for tanks to that list
DRK GOT HARDER AND LESS INTERESTING RAHHHHHHHHRRRRGGHH
I hadn't noticed yet
Fastest downvote I have ever given a video
cool no reason, no opinion just straight to the point letting everyone no you have the combined intelligance of a toaster. gz
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A true , non thirsty hero. I salute theee
I feel like those who want jobs to be harder are the types who want them to have Mortal Kombat combos or something.
I'd rather not have Machinist feel like I'm trying to play a character like Predator in MKX or Warrior feel like Ferra/Torr. I'd mention Jason but he's unironically the easiest to learn with his Slasher variation (I'm totally not saying that because I like the sound design of his machete in MKX)
yeah honestly i agree though. Difficulty should not be tied to the job you play thats silly - It should be purely in the content you do. You shoudnt have to fight against yourself and the boss at the same time and theres ways to make gameplay interesting without making it difficult
@@MythSamaelOh for sure. Being both a Mortal Kombat player (partially) and a Soulsborne fan, I enjoy a good challenge but challenging bosses are far more enjoyable. Unless it's Waterfowl Dance, I still get PTSD from Malenia since I needed to be at her for the platinum. My friends all acknowledge I'm the best Elden Ring player in the group because I'm the only one who managed to 100% the game.
That said, I do enjoy the positionals on Viper but also find them annoying since bosses love to move every second this expansion. Missing out on +50 potency with every missed positional. I wouldn't be upset if they were removed, especially since some bosses can't even be hit from behind without me falling off the map