Caller Claims Complexity is Evidence of a Designer | Jimmy Snow and Eric Skeptics and Scoundrels
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
- Original Episode Here: • Is Jesus God? Allah? I...
Raymond from Arizona calls in to ask hosts Jimmy and Eric about their definition of God and whether they believe in a higher power. Jimmy explains his stance on assessing specific definitions of God presented by others. Raymond contends that the order and complexity of the universe, as well as the laws of physics, imply the existence of an intelligent designer. The hosts point out several flaws in Raymond's reasoning, including the argument from incredulity and equivocation fallacy. As the conversation progresses, it becomes increasingly contentious, with Raymond interrupting the hosts and failing to listen to their counterarguments. Growing frustrated with Raymond's circular reasoning and lack of evidence, Jimmy ultimately ends the call abruptly.
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This is the puddle being amazed the hole is perfectly suited to fit it.
That's so fcking true!!!!
As someone once tried to say to refute that analogy; But the pitcher WAS made to fit the water perfectly!
To which I responded: no, the pitcher was made in a shape, and the water then "fit perfectly". The water wasn't already in the shape of a pitcher, then the pitcher built around the water.
As someone once tried to say to refute that analogy; But the pitcher WAS made to fit the water perfectly!
To which I responded: no, the pitcher was made in a shape, and the water then "fit perfectly".
Well, The water wasn't already in the shape of a pitcher, then the pitcher built around the water.
I've seen rivers that exactly follow state lines! That's proof of design! 😆
Actually many things occur on earth that don't happen elsewhere, For example 1 day on Venus is 265 days here and our atmosphere is unique in comparison.
Eric's calm demeanor, soothing voice, and cultivated intelligence makes him an excellent cohost.
Yeah he is great with Matt 😂😂😂
A good counterpoint to Jimmy who is LOUD
Is that you Eric?
Yeah. If we could lose Dillahunty and Jimmy Snow, maybe pair him with Forrest or Gutsick Gibbon and we’d have a genuinely interesting show.
Never ceases to amaze how some people confidently believe they've figured out the answers to some of the most deeply puzzling questions about life, the universe, and everything using nothing more than their own personal incredulity, comically defective logic, and a sketchy understanding of basic science. It's a truly baffling phenomenon.
Religion is the great pacifier for the clueless.
Well said.
It is quite an interesting paradox of human psychology that the more simple minded a person is the more confident they are at thinking they understand complex subjects.
I'd cut off my pinky finger for a chance to hear Donald Trump talk about particle physics.
@@theriffwriter2194 that would be a waste of a good pinky tho
@@theriffwriter2194 Well, you could listen to him speak about nuclear power instead. That's a speech he actually held. And it's worse than one could imagine. Just google Trump Nuclear Speech.
Raymond doesn't seem very interested in actually listening, just waiting for his turn to talk
Scripthians are funny because they break down as soon as they're asked to stop reading their bullet points.
Do you know how many of the same nonsensical arguments 'theists' use?
@@plattbagarnScripthians is an awesome label for 'Theologists'.
If one lacks the capacity to process what they are being told. what does it matter if they listen? We have got to work on the state of education in the world.
@@plattbagarn Scripthians should be an actual word
Snowflakes are highly complex mathematical structures and they do not utilise heredity to pass on that complexity to other generations of snowflakes. Each one is also unique in its design. If complexity cannot be produced by natural means one can only conclude that there must be a God of Snowflakes creating each one on the fly.
The 'laws of physics' are mathematical descriptions of our empirical observations of objective reality. As far as we know today, there are no prescriptive 'laws' in any aspect of objective reality.
When a theist uses “law” in their argument they’re (fallaciously) trying to equate explanations of observations with legal rules.
@@jexelbur6872 They never seem to understand that while virtually all scientific 'laws' are actually in the form of precise mathematical equations, they come with limits on their applicability, like the laws of thermodynamics only applying to isolated systems.
What is objective reality? Who/what is the arbiter of objective reality?
@@RicardoMartinez-oy9dgwhy does there need to be an "arbiter of objective reality"?
Why does there need to be a purpose? Why does there need to be meaning?
Because Theist’s have to think every other species is useless and pointless while they think this universe is only made for humans.
Because otherwise people like Raymond would need to think, and that's scary. Argument from I can't be bothered....
I think 'just have faith' is the absolute funniest response.. its like saying 'don't know, and I don't want to let my denials go'.
Because his ego demands it
@artistjoh perfect question. Why is a god required for purpose? Why can't people determine their own purpose? So what if our existence and evolution is just something that happened because certain processes happened in a place where we could thrive as a species? That doesn't mean we can't find meaning in our lives. I don't need any god to tell me my life is important.
The moment he said "look at the trees" I would've ended the call but they were talking over him so maybe they didn't hear it.
A "look at the trees" argument with some word salad, once more.
Ooh! Infinite regressions, my favorite.
All top-down origin scenarios (deities or really any agent first) necessarily include the infinite regression issue, something that cannot be defined away. If one rejects the possibility of infinite regressions in objective reality then one also necessarily rejects all top-down, agent first origins. If one accepts the possibility of infinite regressions in objective reality then one also necessarily accepts that no specific agent can sit at the origin because top-down scenarios can't have finite origins. Agent first origin scenarios are irrational, illogical, or both.
Bottom-up origin scenarios (quantum fields or something more basal first) can work because quantum theory, supported by innumerable objective empirical experiments, shows that there are hard limits to how small and simple things can be. All of our available objective empirical evidence points exclusively and unambiguously to an objective reality that is built from the bottom up, from the quantum fields, no agency required or evident.
Wow, that's a great, well worded argument . It's refreshing to hear from someone as intelligent as you are. Thank you.
I second the above comment!👋
@@clipperwing Thanks, but it has taken all of my 69+ years to get to the point where I can be this articulate. It also helped to spend my career designing integrated circuits and the processes they are fabricated on, it made me understand the power of the empirical sciences.
So. Someone on instagram pointed me to an argument where he says that I don't believe in a god so therefor I believe that I believe in a universe where a complex evolutionary tree that was based on "random genes" (dna) trans mutilating for millions of years and given the universe is that old, why aren't there multiple universes of life given the time? I'm atheist but I found this argument very puzzling. How can this be explained?
@@jetgrav7419 First, lacking a belief in a deity does not lead to any other beliefs.
As far as evolution goes, biological evolution, the change in allele frequencies in populations of organisms over generations, is an observed fact. It has been observed in every population of organisms ever studied genetically.
The scientific theory that explains all of the available objective empirical evidence, the Modern Synthesis, is the single most thoroughly vetted theory in all of science ever, full stop. No part of evolutionary biology has anything to do with whether deities are real or not, the notion is simply not a factor. It is interesting that no scientific study of any aspect of objective reality has ever required a deity to explain what happens.
It is not that atheism causes us to accept the findings of such an incredibly well vetted theory, it is that religious beliefs often conflict with empirical science causing the devout to reject science, the single most reliable methodology we have to explore and explain objective reality.
Raymond cant define most of the words he rambles off. It sounded like he said something though.
Raymond is extremely misinformed, but at least he's polite.
The fact that evolution specifically describes how life adapts and evolves to fill ecological niches just absolutely destroys this guy's argument. I guess when you say, "I can't figure it out, so a guy did it," you're tipping us off that either you're not intelligent enough to understand the science, or you're too lazy to try.
I said the same!
Entertainment WHILE learning… I just can’t get enough! Thank you two!!
20:15 I WANT TO BELIEVE!
This is exhausting. Does anyone have anything original to say?
Very rarely.
So using the same argument: the universe doesn’t seem designed to me, therefore it’s not. QED /s
Nature works in mysterious ways!
Jimmy’s response in the beginning of this video about Raymond’s incredulity should be a video short/clip for sure. What an amazingly articulated way of describing the argument from incredulity. I want to show that part to some of my Christian family when they make the same argument as Raymond. I haven’t yet finished the video, however, and perhaps it gets even better.
You know it was a hectic call when Jimmy has to end it by saying "for the love of God, _don't_ eat poop!".
My first question for Raymond would have been : Exactly, when did you stop going to school?. I know it's nothing the show would ask it's just what I would ask him.
"Rocks have the need to be connected to the earth! Without rocks, the earth cannot exist!"
Dude stop ✋️ 😂🤣💀
The ignorance on display is truly scary smh
Religion teaches people to be ignorant. The cruel harshness of living is a hard thing to accept. So a religious devotion bring comfort to people who prefer not to face it head on.
@@Earthling247 exactly I always say the scariest part about religion. Is that, it means you’ve given up…..
You’ve given up on science, the truth, and actual discovery. You’ve chosen to utilize religion as a crutch.
It’s very sad.
"Let's just look at the trees", no he didn't. 🤣Let Raymond fist fight a bear and see who is the apex.
why can't they just be honest..?
My higher power is REALITY.
The ole “let them eat poop”argument. Well done lol
"Common sense is not science" that is correct Jimmy but, unfortunately common sense isn't even that common. "Common" sense is a misnomer.
The common sense thing reminds me of this quote: Think of how dumb the average person is, and realise half of humanity is dumber.
I can’t remember where it is from.
23:15 that is a very good way to put it.
I would bet that the caller thought he got the better of that discussion.
I am a life long atheist. I have no 'definition' of any deity. In fact, defining a deity is a required subjective act because deities cannot be described objectively. I am not even sure what a deity is generally supposed to be or be actually objectively capable of.
He is absolutely wrong about the existence of 'order' in nature. The only thing we observe in nature is chaotic systems, systems that are capable of producing what appears to us as order as easily as they are capable of producing wat looks like randomness. Nature is chock full of chaotic systems interacting wit each other.
I'd argue it's very ordered. Unpredictable, maybe, with out current understanding, and not always conducive to life. But certain effects always require certain causes, as far as I can tell.
Something like a tornado can be reasonably called chaotic, but primarily because it disrupts the particular order we've developed, whether buildings or even lives.
@@denverarnold6210 Don't confuse chaos with randomness, they are not at all the same. In fact, we have no way to determine if any dataset is actually 'truly random' or if one is completely ordered. Chaotic systems are fully deterministic, just wildly nonlinear.
@@letstrytouserealscienceoka3564 i was more trying to trying to show how we sometimes unintentionally conflate the two with that point; not to say you were.
He's hopelessly stuck in incredulity mode.
Oooohhh nooooo Raymond 😂😂😂😂
I recommend watching at x1.5 speed
“Let’s just look at the trees”. Jesus fucking christ.
The natural world and our descriptive methods and laws have PATTERNS. These people seem to confuse/conflate patterns with design.
When I hear cohosts making complex points including logical fallacy terms which I assume the caller will not understand, and then the caller says something like: "Okay, but my point is that anyone can see that...' and then he repeats what he just said, it sounds like the caller did not in fact understand, which could have been predicted. Sometimes the caller is simply not listening or is not serious, but too often it feels like the hosts have trouble avoiding unexplained intro logic terms and concepts, defining technical terms like abiogenesis or quantum, or explaining philosophical references--and most people are very reluctant to say they didn't understand a particular word or concept.
I completely agree with Jimmy in that the universe exhibits zero appearance of design.
Patterns and structural order in of themselves are not necessarily hallmarks of design. People who see design in the universe are just experiencing pareidolia mixed with some cognitive bias.
WHERE'S THE AGENCY BUDDY?
Am I the only Japanese speaker here?! In Japanese the "law" amphiboly cannot exist, because the language uses different words for "human" law (Houritsu: 法律) and physical laws (Housoku: 法則) If your callers are going to commit amphiboly, please refer them to the Japanese language!
I already knew what amphiboly meant, and didn't have to Google it at all 😶
He ... he actually said the thing. He actually said "look at the trees," holy flurking snit.
It's *NEVER* about god and *ALWAYS* about ignorance and irrationality.
How come the constants are exactly what we need them to be for human existence...because if they weren't, no one would be around to be complaining. The constants are right for human life on Venus, thus there isn't anyone on Venus to complain
Education is sadly lacking in the United States
28:25 we have some pretty easy experiments that show that bees, tortoises, fish, chicks etc. can solve more or less complex logical problems, do simple math etc. there's some on youtube i think, this guy should take a look...
If we can eat jello we can eat poop. But it has to be disinfected, and deflavoured, then artificially re-flavoured 1st, and nobody's done that to poop yet. The Japanese considered it in the 90s but abandoned the project. So don't eat poop. (At least not yet).😆
This guy sums up why we think theists are dumb
So what is the design of the blind spot for ? why design the same hole for food and air
Why design disease, and all those interesting creatures can kill ya
ETC ETC
Raymond, I have Raccoons in my backyard whose species has been around for 25 million years. We humans have been around for a couple of hundred thousand years. We have a ways to go before we can claim superiority! We’re technologically more advanced, but may bring about our own demise while Raccoons cheerfully go on about their business. 😜😜🍸😜😜
Yeah he might like the idea of being the “apex” species, but place him anywhere in the wild and he won’t last a week. 😂
Meanwhile the creatures around him will have no trouble surviving in the same environment.
@@kaiza6467 Which of these atheist leaders is in your opinion the greatest? _Mark answer with X_
____ Joseph Stalin
____ Vladimir Lenin
____ Mao Zedong
@@MilitantAntiAtheism You forgot to mention Hitler. Why?
@@TheBigM10 Funny moustasche guy truly loved islame, and he made several agreements with the muslims armies. Even today muslims adore him as a second muhammad, and there's a reason for that, since socialism, which was the building block for his party, is backwards compatible with islame.
For example, atheist religion teaches that pdfilia is liberating for children.
Well, islame teaches it is fine too, it's just a religious right from al Lah.
But the _result_ is the same.
Modern raccoons as a species have maybe been around 2 million years. You're thinking of the whole family procyonidae. While a larger taxonomic grouping, like a family, may persist for quite a long time, individual species within that group inevitably go extinct within a few million years, although exactly how long depends on the species. It's called the background extinction rate.
also, it's not by chance that water boils at 100 and freezes at 0..... we decided to call 100 and 0 those specific temperatures to make math easier 😅 of course "somebody made it this way", we did.
Among us Freedumb People water boils at 212 and freezes at 32. None of those Euro-commie hippy math numbers!
One of our breathing holes is also an eating hole. If that hole gets blocked, then we choke and possibly die. Tell me the intelligence behind that. That doesn't seem intelligent to me.
Balance in nature is simply due to the fact that physics seeks the lowest energy state. It has no choice because energy cannot be created (creation is a fallacy). It is the absence of choice (and therefore, the absence of an intelligent 'higher power'), that results in constants such as the laws of physics. It is the desire to invert this reality which drives theists to proclaim an intelligence behind the universe rather than recognize the very lack of intelligence as the source of natural order. They want to assume chaos should be the result of a non-intelligent universe but that makes no sense. Non-intelligence means there is no ability to choose other than the lowest energy state, and this is what drives all of chemistry, leading to biology, and the strict and constant laws of physics.
Instead of saying it has to be we can say it could be or it possibly could be. This way it's still open to evidence. There is no has to. There is only maybe some way it could be possibly.... Not very likely but...
Ahh "common sense", the reason we had to develop science so that we could get a real understanding how the universe works. Good job Raymond
Modern humans are trained to see modern human design. What people did, even 10,000 years ago, was VASTLY different from modern life, art, philosophy and more
"The earf needs rocks, therefore god" ~ Raymond. The laws of physics are basically laws given by sky daddy like the 10 commandments, also Raymond.
“Just because I don’t understand something, that doesn’t mean I’m willing to chalk it up to some fairy tale.” -- (TV Matt Murdoch/ Daredevil) (This is one of my all-time favorite quotes!)
Always find this one funny because Matt Murdoch lives in a world were beings that could be described as gods actually exist
Raymond is essentially arguing TAG but digging into the idea using more real talk than your regular TAG philosopher
"we can see order" now show me a GOD that is active in our reality.
Is this GOD intelligent enough to show himself to all and end all doubt?
0:57 - ask question and immediately continues talking...🙄
Green? If I remembrer you turn green with jealousy (in the golden goose one of the evil sister was green with jealousy.... soooooo ) 😂😂😂😂
Most of the callers problems are he looks at nature and completely ignores the billions of years of the processes involved to adapt to the surroundings ?
It's his ignorance of what it's taken to get everything on earth to its present state !
I wish God would come over and redesign my living room for me.
The caller sounds like Jesse Lee Peterson.
It's always the same foundation for their argument.
"I don't understand it, it's too hard to think about it so I'll just say God did it"
the caller is dead wrong,, but hes the best ive heard out of the theists, in a long time...
Often there’s something I can get out of these callers, this is not one of those. Raymond is a bong philosopher (whether there’s a bong involved or not) so talking to him is just going to be frustrating.
The sad part is there are a lot of people in this country who think just like raymond. Maybe a third of the population. The human race is in a lot of trouble.
Nature appears designed because WE design things based on nature.
I wonder what it is like inside Raymond's head.
Echoey
woo Jimmy Snow for the positive autism representation!
One argument against complexity as proof of a creator is that in this model God a complex creator would be eternal and have no creator .
Wouldn't that god be the most complex thing imagined? Therefore he would also need a creator per this argument. And on and on and on.
@@joecoolioness6399 ya that’s a better wording then I had.
Nature appears to have a design based on the environment its in.. BIOLOGICAL requirements.
When dude started the call by asking Jimmy, an atheist, what his definition of god is, you just know that the call isn’t going to be productive…and it wasn’t.
Totally misunderstanding nature follows natural laws. While there is the second law of thermodynamics thisbonly wirks in closed systems. The Earth is no closed system and every living cell establishes a wall, so it has the inside and an outside and there is no law that forbids a cell to order the inside with energy.
It would take a really bad designer to design a universe that can easily be destroyed if anything changes the slightest bit within it. Any designer who put people on an Earth that has hurricanes, tornadoes, volcanoes, tsunamis, etc. was a horrible designer. Any designer who made very few places where a human can survive is a poor designer if its goal was to create humans. Any designer who made our bodies able to get easily injured, subject to illnesses, and made us so our breathing tube is next to our eating tube was an incompetent designer.
raymond is not equipped for this
Not by a looooong shot
Do not eat poop.
I hate these sort of arguments. You can literally swap out the word gif for big foot and come to the same conclusion that big foot creates the universe
My guy is working to hard to sound profound!
This world follows perfectly the laws of nature, all the constants of nature, all our natural expectations, and there is no possible way our universe to work outside anything this perfectly natural laws… would shows that our universe is perfectly natural and doesn’t need anything else, such as a god or supernatural.
Now I don’t claim the world is perfect… but if it were it would disprove the need of god 🙃
Fine tuning argument is proof against god
Isn’t it logical to think nature evolved to fit the conditions on earth ? Rather than vice versa
Douglas Adams said it well... "This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!"
Then why did gawd do such an AWFUL job of designing the Bible? 😂
"Science just thinks the universe came from nothing!"
Firstly, false. Secondly, how did god make it again?
This caller not interested in knowing what we know, and how we know it, willful ignorance on show.
can these theist callers just say ... words lack the substance to describe gods and their works.
then we can politely ask them to stop making up words about the gods....
that would be splendid.
Which is better:
1. Let Them Eat Poop! (But not really)
--- Jimmy Snow or
2. Let Them Eat Poop!*
--- Jimmy Snow
* Do NOT actually eat poop.
Number two.
@@HystericalSej thanks for voting. I will comment more after others have had a chance. 🗳 ✅️
I don't know why, but some dude on the internet told me to eat poop.
#2 (obviously)
HA! "Number 💩 two!"
Im starting to get sick of that whole something from nothing argument. I keep hearing it alot lately. What I find is Theist's seem to have very little imagination and wisdom.
Raymond is not remotely Arizona's best when it comes to brains...granted, he is trying, sort of...
No.
No...ol' Raymond failed yet again, hence he's not even "sort of" trying.
Let Ray-Ray's current predicament stand out as a reminder to all of us that completing school IS cool.
My intelligence is so amazing, that the literal universe must have been made by a mind like mine. 🤦♀️
Common sense is a product of your COMMON experiences.
( People lying, short distances, trees growing up, wind,etc )
It doesnt work when related to universal scales, cos you have no COMMON experiences of how the whole universe works.
😁🌏☮️
Trees also grow down.
I am a Christian but I don't deny science. So evolution is a thing. The problem I have with this guy's argument is that he is saying that since Nature is so ordered and interdependent, therefore God. But I would say, given billions of years to develop, of course Nature would appear ordered and interdependent. Even so, is Nature really so ordered? There is a lot of chaos roiling in the background. My belief in God is irrationally based on faith. Proof is not possible.
It might seem ordered to us but according to entropy the universe is more chaotic now than it was at the big bang
All you have to do is look at DNA. It's full of useless information
Nature is NOT ordered, there is dependance and inter-dependance but no (designed or not) order. The dependance well understood by applying the “survival of the fittest idea”. Ie all systems continually adapt to all other systems (their environment) naturally as lack of adaption squeezes them out of existence over time. That creates something that may look ordered (by something) but is simply dependance
Appreciate you coming around happyhippo4664. Glad that you've said it flat out that proof isn't possible. I respect Christians that admit that. (I was one of them) Having a discord about all this will only advance our knowledge...and maybe one day we can come up with some kind of proof test with science.
Why not switch to the Flying Spaghetti Monster?
Truth doesn't matter to you. You believe what you want. And if you vote for US Christians then you are harming people.
Things are so amazing something had to make it all? Well wouldn't that thing that made it all be even more amazing? So what created that thing? And on and on and on. It's a dumb argument.
Reymond is a bad listener.
AI is God.
Sorry, maybe y'all can wait just a second. I'm out. To much content out there to care about what Raymond has to say.
common sense is an oxymoron.
Common sense doesn't actually exist. Rather, there is a shared level of basic education. For instance, for an adult it is "common sense" to look both ways before crossing a street. But as we know... you have to be taught that when you are a kid.
Raymond sounds like he is very uneducated and repeats things again and again.
God Over Djin!
Raymond likes Jello.