In case anyone is curious: Whit Pidot went on to spend much of his career at McKinsey and is now an independent consultant, McGuire is a Lutheran pastor in Dallas, Kristen Clarke is the current Assistant Attorney General, and Derek Ho is a partner at a prominent DC law firm
@@NanakiRowan youre just too thick to understand these things Good thing you are not the authority. and my free speech does not end where your feelings begin.
I am black and I never wanted become what I was told to become. I wanted to become like those who I admired that is like many western intellectual heroes that are predominantly white men, though not solely as I have great admiration for Thomas Sowell, Neil Degrasse Tyson, and Malcolm X.
@George Khan Pointless to you, but to me no, for I think in terms of know thy self and I'm still figuring out the best way to articulate this in our contemporary landscape, but thanks for your feedback.
“There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically.”
The asian man is on point. The nubian sister, Clarke, is clearly shaken. She knows these ideas are being mainstreamed in theories such as CRT. She is disgusted that this topic is even being discussed in public discourse
@@jaymater3869 Lol you're either a troll or clueless . You mean Obama holding back black people? I'll let you figure out what percentage of irony and sincerity that's at.
The 2 white males would never in a million years volunteer to sit on this panel today. They would be petrified of being called racist, being cancelled, or having their careers and job prospects absolutely decimated just for speaking truth.
I liked Ho and Pidot. I thought their criticisms were very measured, intelligent, and relevant by and large. McGuire and Clarke made good points at times, but often sounded like they were running for office. Clarke's claim that Murray and Hernstein's book was in the tradition of Shockley is outrageous.
It isn't outrageous if you read the research literature and not just cherry pick the studies that purport to agree with Murray. It also helps if you read what population geneticists have said about this topic, the people who actually specialize in studying genetic differences between human populations in an evolutionary context. Rather than rely solely on research psychologists like Murray, who venture into subjects well above their paygrade.
@@themaskedman221 William Shockley believed that black people as a group were inferior and believed that anyone with an IQ of 100 (which presumably would have meant many if not most black people in his world) should be sterilized. Are you putting Charles Murray in the same category as that? Because for all the criticisms you can make of his work, that kind of naked racism is just not there.
@@BloggerMusicMan My position on the issue is that people like Murray and Shockley shouldn't get involved in the policy end of the discussion. It's troublesome to me that Murray is primarily concerned with advocacy for sweeping reforms to the welfare system - not forced sterilizations, but massive welfare cuts. He also supports something in the way of a "universal basic income", which is a more liberal position. Whatever Murray personally believes is irrelevant to me. I'm more concerned with the dubious science he published, and the role that similar "race science" has played throughout US history.
I usually don’t buy into stereotypes, but it amazes me how the performance of each student almost entirely coincides with the common stereotypes based on race, gender and ideology that have been perpetrated for some time, regardless of how odious some of them are.
@@themaskedman221 Correlation does not equal causation but we can take a simple logical step from certain facts. For example if a person has an IQ of lower than 70 then they're going to struggle studying at even a high school level. When we look at average IQ of different countries then we can make clear predictions about the fate of that nation and these predictions continue to hold up. Now at some point we are going to have to ask why exactly this particular correlation seems to hold true no matter how much we test it. We can also see that when races mix the effect on IQ can be measured, which adds to the idea of genetics playing a key role in intelligence and different races do have slightly different gene mixtures. Thus we see east-Asians and racial Jews having the highest IQs. I'm neither Asian or Jewish and yet I don't find it offensive that the average is higher in those races so why do people get upset when people point to the lower average in other races? I can point to studies which show all sorts of diseases are greater or lower in different races even when you control for as many variables as possible. Even within the same population groups you will find this. So the obvious question is why do we accept this is possible but above the neck we will not tolerate such ideas.
@@laughingachilles No, you cannot take a step from one fact. You have to take into account all factors. For example, Nigerians are America's most educated ethnic group, educated people tend to have much higher IQ scores. Does this make Black Nigerians genetically superior or does American immigration that selects for educated well off immigrants skew the results which is why East Asian and Jewish Americans, primarily descended from well off, educated immigrants, perform well on IQ which are biased towards those who have received a good Western education and were not even intended by their creator as a marker of intelligence. If you measured the intelligence of Haredi Ashkenazi Jews in Israel who largely don't receive proper education due to their religious beliefs, their IQ scores are a lot lower. I don't know what your point on countries is about. After years of French colonialism and neo-colonialism, Mali is not a rich country today, but it was one of the richest country 500 years(the empire of Mali) and to date, Mansa Musa is the richest man to have ever lived, Mali still have the same ethnic demographics that it did back then, what changed was the environment and circumstances. Same with Argentina and Brazil, they used to be on their way to matching the US in terms of prosperity, but failed into dictatorship and financial trouble, did their demographics change? No, it was the circumstances and of course bad decisions made by power hungry people at the top. Moreover, the IQ score gap has been closing and unlike your claim which you never cited, multiracial adolescents show no IQ score gap with white children so it's clear that differences in IQ scores are environmental, not genetic, otherwise Black Nigerians would be the more superior than everyone else, including other Black people. Race in of itself is a construct and people of the same race can be more genetically similar to a human of another race than each other, human "races" share 99.9% DNA. This video thoroughly explains all the flaws of the bell curve and "IQ is caused mostly by genetics" argument. ruclips.net/video/UBc7qBS1Ujo/видео.html www.brookings.edu/research/multi-racial-adolescents-show-no-test-score-gap-with-whites/ www.edweek.org/leadership/black-white-gap-in-iq-scores-closing-study-finds/2006/06 www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-reshaping-race-debate-21st-century/ www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-general-science/are-you-there-race-its-me-dna
Instead of blowing hot air, simple go to any STEM or engineering departments, civil, electrical, computer science, you will get the IQ of human groups.
That is a very unscientific way to assess the intelligence of human groups......unless since you don't work in any of those departments, you're trying to tell us that you're no more intelligent than the average black person.....
McGuire is making a philosophical and sociological argument, rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of the science. He also evades Ho's question on the validity of the data by arguing a position taken by the Bell Curve.
@George Khan 1) How does / what part of my comment "demonstrated...low IQ"? 20 What's your correlation between race and IQ, and the "science" you use to support / validate it?
In the opening, yes, but not later in the discussion, where he states the statistical methods to combat colinearity, the point that the problem itself should be addressed (nutrition), and the fact that asians and jews outperform whites despite also historical disadvantages. He even slickly and brilliant replied to a nasty/off-topic comment regarding socrates intended to bring him down
The very fact that the authors have been the subjects of never ending personal attacks while their body of work has gone virtually unchallenged speaks volumes to the validity of their work. When your opponents utter words like racist and white supremacy multiple times in their counter arguments, it's safe to say that you have won the discussion.
@8.00 Charles Murray didn't "make up the theory" he discovered it through careful research. He has NO position on politics he is a biologist! Wow the emotions with regards to this topic is astounding. Truly is the 22nd Century 3rd Rail!
No positions on politics lol? The book literally exists to draw political conclusions and Murray is a self described libertarian. The book is motivated far more by politics and racism than science
Very good panel. The discussion is clearly dated. These days correcting for unconscious bias is widely encouraged, which seems to allow reconciliation between Ho and Brent McGuire. As Ho says, we are all subject to psychological biases of group and identity, yet we can also be judged as individuals if the tools to correct for such bias are generalized.
Tragically, unconscious bias training is not backed by any research: in fact the research suggests that attempts to mitigate unconscious bias make it worse.
Murray argued to stop welfare to keep what he considering less intelligent people from breeding. The argument wasn't racist as some claim as he didn't say don't give welfare payments to a particular group but it did sound like unsavory early 20th century eugenics. There are indisputably group average differences in performance in IQ testing, academic performance, and economic outcomes. From one perspective its largely meaningless as no one is an average. There is a lot of overlap of these curves so people on the lower curve can still outperform people on the highest curve. It might be nurture but It's hard to dismiss the possibility it might not be purely nurture. If you look at the men's hundred meter Olympics final black men are clearly disproportionately represented. Same story for Jewish Nobel prize winners in physics. One can argue its some sort of nurture bias but seems unlikely given the era we live equal rights are the norm (unlike prior centuries). This doesn't mean someone black can't be a Nobel laureate in physics but as it stands they are outliers. Ditto for any Jews winning hundred meter final in the Olympics. There is evidence to support that admixture between groups and/or mutation might shift a groups average position. For instance, ancient Israelites are largely inconsequential from academic achievement standpoint. If look at Jews by group average today they are ahead among identifiable groups. Its hard to say if this is due to mixing Jews have done over the centuries or mutation but it's not implausible. Of course the trouble with noting group average difference is that it can create cognitive bias in some when judging individuals... aka racism...and we all know the horrors and injustice that can result from that line of thinking. On the other hand, If these differences are not result of just nurture those looking to fix these outcome difference using nurture methods alone might mean well but will fail in their efforts because they wouldn't be addressing root cause. Assuming that there is a genetic reason (which is by no means certain) IMO one possible solution to resolve it might be to genetic engineer all children using some technology like CRSPR thereby making the idea of racial difference meaningless. Intelligence clearly is influenced by biology on at least an individual level. Just figure out the genes involved and modify fertilized embryos to be smarter, more beautiful. healthier, and stronger. And then make the technology freely available for every family that wishes to take advantage of it (assuming it's one day possible and safe).
I think the Ashkenazi Jewish triumph on IQ tests dispels the viewpoint that intelligence is mostly innate or genetic and is instead socioeconomically driven Ashkenazi Jews have been historically dehumanized as the anathema of eugenicists. How can you reconcile claims of biological inferiority via in-breeding with mental superiority? It seems that tribalism and cloistered collectivism is most conducive to IQ-positive environments, thus making nurture the primary determinant. How else could a “recessive” people be so transcendent in a category supposedly beholden to genetics?
@@ajj403 "How else could a “recessive” people be so transcendent in a category supposedly beholden to genetics?" In the modern era there is no compelling evidence Ashkenazi were "recessive" . Don't confuse the distorted narratives of fascists that claimed Ashkenazi were not great performers. There hasn't been an identifiable group per capita of greater thinkers than Ashkenazi for the last century or so. (I would give the title to western Europe before that. Between 15th-19th century western Europe dominated intellectually) Nurture clearly does play a role too. There are some exceptions but for the most part great Jewish scientists are almost non-existent prior to the 19th century. It's not like Jews magically became biologically smarter in the last hundred years. The sudden jump in performance seems to be due to a cultural movement away from the religious fundamentalism that Jewishness had represented for the most of it's history. An interesting question arises though. Why weren't at least Hellenized Jews in antiquity great performers like modern Jews? Israel was a backwater in antiquity with virtually no notable scientific accomplishments. Back then Greeks were by far the dominant intellectual group as well far more advanced in science. You would think at least Hellenized Jews might have been much better performers. My guess is some assimilation on non-Jews into Jewish identity happened while living as a minority in other states during the middle ages. This created a more intelligent genetic mix than either that eventually crystalized into Ashkenazi (which would also explain why non-Ashkenazi Jews don't perform as well on average) . In other words, the leaderboard for the group average intelligence curves change with time. Although members of sundry ethnic groups may have common ethnic identities, their actual genetic and culture makeup get mixed with time. There is also constant evolution. All it takes is the right mutation in someone in another group to potentially eventually elevate the entire group in the standings. This would also explain why a group can intellectual dominate for a period but not in perpetuity.
The Bell Curve has never been discredited, and i'll bet CLARKE never read the book. All you have to do is look at the societies that different people have created to know which is the more intelligent group.
When Mr. Ho mentioned the relationship between The Bell Curve and the publication Mankind Quarterly the coversation died in my opinion. Guilty by association.
@@dieyou2000 so you and @Ricky Muse ignore the core of all the other things he said because of 'his goals' in 1 comment. Isn't that exactly what you accuse him of?
Everyone on here who is arguing against the ball curve are making the same non-argument. First you say there are no differences in intelligent between races, then you go on to explain all of the reasons you believe these racial differences in intelligent exist. What you're doing is seeing things for how you want them to be instead of for how they are currently today . When you equalize for IQ racial disparities basically disappear, because two different people with an IQ of 105 regardless of race will have roughly the same ability to solve complex problems, set goals and Achieve them, etc... same as two different people with an IQ of 85 will have the same likeliness of violence, criminality, inability to defer gratification... etc.
"When you equalize for IQ racial disparities basically disappear. [...]" - Don't you think you're leaving out a tiny bit of historical context here?? The over-representation of surtain racial minorities in the criminal justicem can be largely expained by socio-economic factors. Ex: White people made a lot of money from free labor -> Americans invest newfound wealth on the military and education -> White-Americans become wealthy and educated -> White-Americans doing well in 2024. Ex2: Black people have been persecuted for +400 years -> Black children are more likely to be exposed to concentrated poverty, poor access to public/early education, harmful chemicals (such as lead) and pollution, do to the momentum of redlining, racial zoning laws, blockbusting, de jure segregation and the actions of private actors -> The African-American community lacks a significant amount of intergenerational wealth that would have otherwise shaped and secured the fortunes of Black children, do to things like housing segregation and systematical disenfranchisment. To wit: More than 50% of wealth is actually inherented, *not* earned. Often trough real estate or family -> desperate people often resort to desperate measures in order for them and their families to survive -> Black-Americans aren't doing well in 2024. Seriously, it’s not rocket science. And as wise man once said: “You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, ‘you are free to compete with all the others,’ and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.” - Lyndon B. Johnson
@LilReezy_1437 how did I leave out historical context by pointing out that any two people what's an IQ of 105 regardless of their race are going to have roughly the same ability to solve complex problems set goals and Achieve them, Etc..., With everything you just wrote you're doing the exact same thing. You've wrote a list of reasons why you believe that these differences exist.
kind of inarguable the bell curve is flawed as Ho points out where he sasy enviroment is a factor in gene expression.We know it happens in animal species.Environmental factors such as diet, temperature, oxygen levels, humidity, light cycles, and the presence of mutagens can all impact which of an animal's genes are expressed, which ultimately affects the animal's phenotype.Same with humans but we can add psychological impacts to that.
@@NanakiRowan Obviously the intention is to isolate genetic differences in individuals with environmental variables held constant. Thereby proving there is a genetic component to intellectual capacity. If you're referring to heritability among groups, that's already a well-established fact for anyone with a functioning brain.
@@jfkst1 That's the intention, but the intention hasn't yielded any proof of heritability differences in intelligence between groups. Quite the opposite really, on both theoretical and empirical grounds. So again, as I asked, and as you didn't answer, please tell me what the study of twins, who are obviously of the same race, tells us about differences between races. Anyone with a functioning brain can see that results between two 100% genetically identical people of the same race, tells us nothing about genetically unidentical people of different races.
@@NanakiRowan There's a foundational knowledge base required to understand why the twins studies are relevant that you clearly either lack and/or are unwilling to acknowledge as it conflicts with you worldview.
Care to elaborate so that I can help guide you toward a more realistic way of seeing this debate? Thats the better part of me speaking. I'm pretty sure your referring to the students' performances while comparing and contrasting their deliveries which would have little to do with their IQ. It could rather more plausibly be indicative of how much time they put toward preparing for the event, how comfortable the student felt in the environment or a plethora of other reasons that to me would seem more reasonable than to project my own racial biases on them. Further more as life long learners and even for those who are of intellectual minds, do not strive to become the person with the highest IQ with a desire to outdo our peers as if in some manner of competition, however we should strive to use our many gifts to make a positive impact on the world and the people who we encounter throughout life to make it more meaningful while ultimately leaving a legacy behind of who we were and what we stood for in life; not a score that will mean nothing to the world or the generations to come unless used to advance humanity in such a way that gives it meaning.
![Yeat & Summrs - GO2WORK [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/NEFEwfPcXRA/mqdefault.jpg)
In case anyone is curious: Whit Pidot went on to spend much of his career at McKinsey and is now an independent consultant, McGuire is a Lutheran pastor in Dallas, Kristen Clarke is the current Assistant Attorney General, and Derek Ho is a partner at a prominent DC law firm
Clarke tried to shut down SF and censor free speech.
@@bevs9995 Hate speech is not "free speech", and hate speech is not without consequence.
@@NanakiRowan youre just too thick to understand these things
Good thing you are not the authority.
and my free speech does not end where your feelings begin.
@@NanakiRowan My free speech does not end where your feelings begin.
Now be gone, BW
@@bevs9995 As I said, hate speech is not "free speech" and is not without consequence.....as Nazis tend to find out lol
I am black and I never wanted become what I was told to become. I wanted to become like those who I admired that is like many western intellectual heroes that are predominantly white men, though not solely as I have great admiration for Thomas Sowell, Neil Degrasse Tyson, and Malcolm X.
Thomas Sowell and Malcolm X?
@@theevster3413 ruclips.net/video/T2hPQ86lGV0/видео.html
@@theevster3413 ruclips.net/video/T3PaqxblOx0/видео.html
@George Khan Pointless to you, but to me no, for I think in terms of know thy self and I'm still figuring out the best way to articulate this in our contemporary landscape, but thanks for your feedback.
@@mpcc2022 why do you engage with people who patronize you and view you as inferior?
“There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically.”
The Bell Curve 2, Track and Field Edition.
Kristen Clarke is now the second-most powerful person at Department of Justice. Affirmative action has served her well
its a pity people are not hired on merit!
And failure and blame seems to have served you just as well
It’s great to be an idiot if you’re black in America as her trajectory shows.
I love this debate because it shows a time when people could sit in a college and debate, instead of shouting and cancelling each other.
WASP academic culture. It’s almost like culture comes from a people.
This was at Harvard, mind you
A debate would be some of the panel in favour of the bell curve and some against wouldn't it?
@@justStardust940 these kids are the best of the best! Scary!!!!
The asian man is on point. The nubian sister, Clarke, is clearly shaken. She knows these ideas are being mainstreamed in theories such as CRT. She is disgusted that this topic is even being discussed in public discourse
Dr Francis Cress Welsing shot Shockley down
Only the ones at the top have the power to hold black people back
@@jaymater3869
You mean the ones in power of Detroit & Baltimore?
@@southafricanizationofsociety20 it is always the same ones
@@jaymater3869 Lol you're either a troll or clueless . You mean Obama holding back black people? I'll let you figure out what percentage of irony and sincerity that's at.
I would love to get every single one of these students and audience back in that room and run this again today.
The 2 white males would never in a million years volunteer to sit on this panel today. They would be petrified of being called racist, being cancelled, or having their careers and job prospects absolutely decimated just for speaking truth.
It's not a question. It's not an opinion. Just data. And it's irritating. But it's real.
I liked Ho and Pidot. I thought their criticisms were very measured, intelligent, and relevant by and large. McGuire and Clarke made good points at times, but often sounded like they were running for office. Clarke's claim that Murray and Hernstein's book was in the tradition of Shockley is outrageous.
It isn't outrageous if you read the research literature and not just cherry pick the studies that purport to agree with Murray.
It also helps if you read what population geneticists have said about this topic, the people who actually specialize in studying genetic differences between human populations in an evolutionary context. Rather than rely solely on research psychologists like Murray, who venture into subjects well above their paygrade.
@@themaskedman221 William Shockley believed that black people as a group were inferior and believed that anyone with an IQ of 100 (which presumably would have meant many if not most black people in his world) should be sterilized.
Are you putting Charles Murray in the same category as that? Because for all the criticisms you can make of his work, that kind of naked racism is just not there.
@@BloggerMusicMan My position on the issue is that people like Murray and Shockley shouldn't get involved in the policy end of the discussion. It's troublesome to me that Murray is primarily concerned with advocacy for sweeping reforms to the welfare system - not forced sterilizations, but massive welfare cuts. He also supports something in the way of a "universal basic income", which is a more liberal position.
Whatever Murray personally believes is irrelevant to me. I'm more concerned with the dubious science he published, and the role that similar "race science" has played throughout US history.
I usually don’t buy into stereotypes, but it amazes me how the performance of each student almost entirely coincides with the common stereotypes based on race, gender and ideology that have been perpetrated for some time, regardless of how odious some of them are.
What's so amazing about that? What's amazing is how many people regularly fall prey to the correlation = causation fallacy.
@@themaskedman221 exactly. Racists think theyve done their research bc theyve heard podcasters refer to Murray lol
@@themaskedman221
Correlation does not equal causation but we can take a simple logical step from certain facts. For example if a person has an IQ of lower than 70 then they're going to struggle studying at even a high school level. When we look at average IQ of different countries then we can make clear predictions about the fate of that nation and these predictions continue to hold up.
Now at some point we are going to have to ask why exactly this particular correlation seems to hold true no matter how much we test it. We can also see that when races mix the effect on IQ can be measured, which adds to the idea of genetics playing a key role in intelligence and different races do have slightly different gene mixtures. Thus we see east-Asians and racial Jews having the highest IQs. I'm neither Asian or Jewish and yet I don't find it offensive that the average is higher in those races so why do people get upset when people point to the lower average in other races?
I can point to studies which show all sorts of diseases are greater or lower in different races even when you control for as many variables as possible. Even within the same population groups you will find this. So the obvious question is why do we accept this is possible but above the neck we will not tolerate such ideas.
@@laughingachilles No, you cannot take a step from one fact. You have to take into account all factors. For example, Nigerians are America's most educated ethnic group, educated people tend to have much higher IQ scores. Does this make Black Nigerians genetically superior or does American immigration that selects for educated well off immigrants skew the results which is why East Asian and Jewish Americans, primarily descended from well off, educated immigrants, perform well on IQ which are biased towards those who have received a good Western education and were not even intended by their creator as a marker of intelligence.
If you measured the intelligence of Haredi Ashkenazi Jews in Israel who largely don't receive proper education due to their religious beliefs, their IQ scores are a lot lower.
I don't know what your point on countries is about. After years of French colonialism and neo-colonialism, Mali is not a rich country today, but it was one of the richest country 500 years(the empire of Mali) and to date, Mansa Musa is the richest man to have ever lived, Mali still have the same ethnic demographics that it did back then, what changed was the environment and circumstances. Same with Argentina and Brazil, they used to be on their way to matching the US in terms of prosperity, but failed into dictatorship and financial trouble, did their demographics change? No, it was the circumstances and of course bad decisions made by power hungry people at the top.
Moreover, the IQ score gap has been closing and unlike your claim which you never cited, multiracial adolescents show no IQ score gap with white children so it's clear that differences in IQ scores are environmental, not genetic, otherwise Black Nigerians would be the more superior than everyone else, including other Black people. Race in of itself is a construct and people of the same race can be more genetically similar to a human of another race than each other, human "races" share 99.9% DNA.
This video thoroughly explains all the flaws of the bell curve and "IQ is caused mostly by genetics" argument.
ruclips.net/video/UBc7qBS1Ujo/видео.html
www.brookings.edu/research/multi-racial-adolescents-show-no-test-score-gap-with-whites/
www.edweek.org/leadership/black-white-gap-in-iq-scores-closing-study-finds/2006/06
www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php
sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2017/science-genetics-reshaping-race-debate-21st-century/
www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-general-science/are-you-there-race-its-me-dna
@@toade1583thank you for this thorough breakdown.
Instead of blowing hot air, simple go to any STEM or engineering departments, civil, electrical, computer science, you will get the IQ of human groups.
That is a very unscientific way to assess the intelligence of human groups......unless since you don't work in any of those departments, you're trying to tell us that you're no more intelligent than the average black person.....
McGuire is making a philosophical and sociological argument, rather than the merits (or lack thereof) of the science. He also evades Ho's question on the validity of the data by arguing a position taken by the Bell Curve.
@George Khan Why would you assume that?
@George Khan 1) How does / what part of my comment "demonstrated...low IQ"? 20 What's your correlation between race and IQ, and the "science" you use to support / validate it?
@George Khan You're obviously uninformed and presumptuous. :)
In the opening, yes, but not later in the discussion, where he states the statistical methods to combat colinearity, the point that the problem itself should be addressed (nutrition), and the fact that asians and jews outperform whites despite also historical disadvantages. He even slickly and brilliant replied to a nasty/off-topic comment regarding socrates intended to bring him down
1:09:00 Dull is simply an old-fashioned scientific qualification for intelligence around an 80 IQ. Like moron. It doesn't mean the person is boring.
The very fact that the authors have been the subjects of never ending personal attacks while their body of work has gone virtually unchallenged speaks volumes to the validity of their work. When your opponents utter words like racist and white supremacy multiple times in their counter arguments, it's safe to say that you have won the discussion.
I don't know who have you seen debunk this theory, but The Bell Curve has more holes in Logic than a Swiss Cheese.
@@new3sc any chance you can link me a good review of the bell curve that shows this?
@@stephenb8924 Search for "Shaun The Bell Curve". You will find his video... Is quite long.
@@new3sc Please refer us to academic sources, not videos made by youtube nobodies
@@coles5451 if you watched this video on RUclips, you can also watch the one I mentioned.
@8.00 Charles Murray didn't "make up the theory" he discovered it through careful research. He has NO position on politics he is a biologist! Wow the emotions with regards to this topic is astounding. Truly is the 22nd Century 3rd Rail!
No positions on politics lol? The book literally exists to draw political conclusions and Murray is a self described libertarian. The book is motivated far more by politics and racism than science
Where was Shaun when we needed him?
Facts
Very good panel. The discussion is clearly dated. These days correcting for unconscious bias is widely encouraged, which seems to allow reconciliation between Ho and Brent McGuire. As Ho says, we are all subject to psychological biases of group and identity, yet we can also be judged as individuals if the tools to correct for such bias are generalized.
Tragically, unconscious bias training is not backed by any research: in fact the research suggests that attempts to mitigate unconscious bias make it worse.
People will avoid truth at all costs.
the truth is that no race is superior
@@AC-mp7cx thanks for proving my point by inventing yet more 'truth'
its not invented, internet warrior@@kirkgoshert7876
@@AC-mp7cxintelligence doesn’t equal superiority
Truth is a tool of the patriarchy
the link in the description that says "More video info at" purposely left out Mcguire's name, but has the other three names.
imagine being right 30 years later LOL
Murray argued to stop welfare to keep what he considering less intelligent people from breeding. The argument wasn't racist as some claim as he didn't say don't give welfare payments to a particular group but it did sound like unsavory early 20th century eugenics.
There are indisputably group average differences in performance in IQ testing, academic performance, and economic outcomes. From one perspective its largely meaningless as no one is an average. There is a lot of overlap of these curves so people on the lower curve can still outperform people on the highest curve.
It might be nurture but It's hard to dismiss the possibility it might not be purely nurture. If you look at the men's hundred meter Olympics final black men are clearly disproportionately represented. Same story for Jewish Nobel prize winners in physics. One can argue its some sort of nurture bias but seems unlikely given the era we live equal rights are the norm (unlike prior centuries). This doesn't mean someone black can't be a Nobel laureate in physics but as it stands they are outliers. Ditto for any Jews winning hundred meter final in the Olympics.
There is evidence to support that admixture between groups and/or mutation might shift a groups average position. For instance, ancient Israelites are largely inconsequential from academic achievement standpoint. If look at Jews by group average today they are ahead among identifiable groups. Its hard to say if this is due to mixing Jews have done over the centuries or mutation but it's not implausible.
Of course the trouble with noting group average difference is that it can create cognitive bias in some when judging individuals... aka racism...and we all know the horrors and injustice that can result from that line of thinking. On the other hand, If these differences are not result of just nurture those looking to fix these outcome difference using nurture methods alone might mean well but will fail in their efforts because they wouldn't be addressing root cause.
Assuming that there is a genetic reason (which is by no means certain) IMO one possible solution to resolve it might be to genetic engineer all children using some technology like CRSPR thereby making the idea of racial difference meaningless. Intelligence clearly is influenced by biology on at least an individual level. Just figure out the genes involved and modify fertilized embryos to be smarter, more beautiful. healthier, and stronger. And then make the technology freely available for every family that wishes to take advantage of it (assuming it's one day possible and safe).
I think the Ashkenazi Jewish triumph on IQ tests dispels the viewpoint that intelligence is mostly innate or genetic and is instead socioeconomically driven
Ashkenazi Jews have been historically dehumanized as the anathema of eugenicists. How can you reconcile claims of biological inferiority via in-breeding with mental superiority? It seems that tribalism and cloistered collectivism is most conducive to IQ-positive environments, thus making nurture the primary determinant. How else could a “recessive” people be so transcendent in a category supposedly beholden to genetics?
@@ajj403
"How else could a “recessive” people be so transcendent in a category supposedly beholden to genetics?"
In the modern era there is no compelling evidence Ashkenazi were "recessive" . Don't confuse the distorted narratives of fascists that claimed Ashkenazi were not great performers. There hasn't been an identifiable group per capita of greater thinkers than Ashkenazi for the last century or so. (I would give the title to western Europe before that. Between 15th-19th century western Europe dominated intellectually)
Nurture clearly does play a role too. There are some exceptions but for the most part great Jewish scientists are almost non-existent prior to the 19th century. It's not like Jews magically became biologically smarter in the last hundred years. The sudden jump in performance seems to be due to a cultural movement away from the religious fundamentalism that Jewishness had represented for the most of it's history.
An interesting question arises though. Why weren't at least Hellenized Jews in antiquity great performers like modern Jews? Israel was a backwater in antiquity with virtually no notable scientific accomplishments. Back then Greeks were by far the dominant intellectual group as well far more advanced in science. You would think at least Hellenized Jews might have been much better performers.
My guess is some assimilation on non-Jews into Jewish identity happened while living as a minority in other states during the middle ages. This created a more intelligent genetic mix than either that eventually crystalized into Ashkenazi (which would also explain why non-Ashkenazi Jews don't perform as well on average) .
In other words, the leaderboard for the group average intelligence curves change with time. Although members of sundry ethnic groups may have common ethnic identities, their actual genetic and culture makeup get mixed with time. There is also constant evolution. All it takes is the right mutation in someone in another group to potentially eventually elevate the entire group in the standings. This would also explain why a group can intellectual dominate for a period but not in perpetuity.
Ho probably has an SAT score of like 500 points over CLarke.
That seems to be a modest estimate.
Fascinating! I tuned in for 2 minutes and watched the whole thing.
45:18 This dude is dressed just like the actors in the Key & Peele skit "Black Republicans"
The Bell Curve has never been discredited, and i'll bet CLARKE never read the book. All you have to do is look at the societies that different people have created to know which is the more intelligent group.
Yeah it has and hasn't been picked up by any institution to date. You sound like a dunce
@@Charlii931603 Der...
It's been discredited so many times by so many individuals and boards. Just say you've not read them.
@@TRUTHSORE Never ,NOT ONCE DISCREDITED. Calling Charles Murray a racist is not discrediting.
@@TRUTHSORE Name them.
When Mr. Ho mentioned the relationship between The Bell Curve and the publication Mankind Quarterly the coversation died in my opinion. Guilty by association.
Yeah the fact that Murray cited and individually thanked white supremacists and white supremacist organizations kind of makes his goals clear.
Classic ad hominem. Refute the data. Not the people.
@@dieyou2000 so you and @Ricky Muse ignore the core of all the other things he said because of 'his goals' in 1 comment. Isn't that exactly what you accuse him of?
@@mrawesome2742 you can easily do both, are you ridiculous?
Everyone on here who is arguing against the ball curve are making the same non-argument. First you say there are no differences in intelligent between races, then you go on to explain all of the reasons you believe these racial differences in intelligent exist. What you're doing is seeing things for how you want them to be instead of for how they are currently today . When you equalize for IQ racial disparities basically disappear, because two different people with an IQ of 105 regardless of race will have roughly the same ability to solve complex problems, set goals and Achieve them, etc... same as two different people with an IQ of 85 will have the same likeliness of violence, criminality, inability to defer gratification... etc.
"When you equalize for IQ racial disparities basically disappear. [...]" - Don't you think you're leaving out a tiny bit of historical context here?? The over-representation of surtain racial minorities in the criminal justicem can be largely expained by socio-economic factors.
Ex: White people made a lot of money from free labor -> Americans invest newfound wealth on the military and education -> White-Americans become wealthy and educated -> White-Americans doing well in 2024.
Ex2: Black people have been persecuted for +400 years -> Black children are more likely to be exposed to concentrated poverty, poor access to public/early education, harmful chemicals (such as lead) and pollution, do to the momentum of redlining, racial zoning laws, blockbusting, de jure segregation and the actions of private actors -> The African-American community lacks a significant amount of intergenerational wealth that would have otherwise shaped and secured the fortunes of Black children, do to things like housing segregation and systematical disenfranchisment. To wit: More than 50% of wealth is actually inherented, *not* earned. Often trough real estate or family -> desperate people often resort to desperate measures in order for them and their families to survive -> Black-Americans aren't doing well in 2024. Seriously, it’s not rocket science. And as wise man once said: “You do not wipe away the scars of centuries by saying: Now you are free to go where you want, and do as you desire, and choose the leaders you please. You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a race and then say, ‘you are free to compete with all the others,’ and still justly believe that you have been completely fair.” - Lyndon B. Johnson
@LilReezy_1437 how did I leave out historical context by pointing out that any two people what's an IQ of 105 regardless of their race are going to have roughly the same ability to solve complex problems set goals and Achieve them, Etc...,
With everything you just wrote you're doing the exact same thing. You've wrote a list of reasons why you believe that these differences exist.
McGuire is a typical conservative, saying "liberal" 500 times and politicizing everything. No facts in his opening monologue whatsoever. 🤦
just look at south africa before and after apartheid or see the world iq map. no need to be a scientist
What about Timbuktu?
Rhodesia, Zimbabwe
Pls cut it better, 10 minutes wasted.
kind of inarguable the bell curve is flawed as Ho points out where he sasy enviroment is a factor in gene expression.We know it happens in animal species.Environmental factors such as diet, temperature, oxygen levels, humidity, light cycles, and the presence of mutagens can all impact which of an animal's genes are expressed, which ultimately affects the animal's phenotype.Same with humans but we can add psychological impacts to that.
Identical twins studies proves intelligence has a genetic component.
@@jfkst1 What does the study of twins, who are obviously of the same race, tell us about differences between races?
@@NanakiRowan
Obviously the intention is to isolate genetic differences in individuals with environmental variables held constant. Thereby proving there is a genetic component to intellectual capacity. If you're referring to heritability among groups, that's already a well-established fact for anyone with a functioning brain.
@@jfkst1 That's the intention, but the intention hasn't yielded any proof of heritability differences in intelligence between groups. Quite the opposite really, on both theoretical and empirical grounds. So again, as I asked, and as you didn't answer, please tell me what the study of twins, who are obviously of the same race, tells us about differences between races. Anyone with a functioning brain can see that results between two 100% genetically identical people of the same race, tells us nothing about genetically unidentical people of different races.
@@NanakiRowan
There's a foundational knowledge base required to understand why the twins studies are relevant that you clearly either lack and/or are unwilling to acknowledge as it conflicts with you worldview.
we just made a Bell Curve video
Since most are offended by links the link can be found by clicking on the channel, Injoy :)
80 IQ😂
Ho doesn’t present any facts. He is a young man without life experience
I see the bell curve in action during this debate.
Care to elaborate so that I can help guide you toward a more realistic way of seeing this debate? Thats the better part of me speaking. I'm pretty sure your referring to the students' performances while comparing and contrasting their deliveries which would have little to do with their IQ. It could rather more plausibly be indicative of how much time they put toward preparing for the event, how comfortable the student felt in the environment or a plethora of other reasons that to me would seem more reasonable than to project my own racial biases on them. Further more as life long learners and even for those who are of intellectual minds, do not strive to become the person with the highest IQ with a desire to outdo our peers as if in some manner of competition, however we should strive to use our many gifts to make a positive impact on the world and the people who we encounter throughout life to make it more meaningful while ultimately leaving a legacy behind of who we were and what we stood for in life; not a score that will mean nothing to the world or the generations to come unless used to advance humanity in such a way that gives it meaning.
Fact