DANGEROUS Limp-Home Acura (Part 1)
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- Опубликовано: 27 авг 2024
- The owner of this sporty 2006 Acura TSX is getting tired of suddenly losing throttle control in traffic. It's a DANGEROUS Situation, especially with a child on board!
Intermittent problems can be notoriously hard to pinpoint, and this one is no exception.
Lots of valuable lessons to be learned from this case study :)
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Ivan
I had a Nissan a couple months ago with the same problem. The customer had installed a new DEFECTIVE pedal sensor incorrectly. took a bit to sort that out. Of course seeing a new sensor made me want to condemn something else....once I realized there was never any change in either of the outputs I stopped trying to find a different problem, lol. He had missed the small lever, but even after correcting that the sensor had a bad channel.
Look forward to seeing what this one is.
0.24V is almost perfect for the sensor B. Sensor A and B have different voltage ranges for redundancy - otherwise a short between the signal wires could not be detected. Hence why the freeze frame set at 0.44 volts - the difference between the two sensors was too small. It always expects SensorB Volts = 2x SensorA Volts.
I don't understand why the voltages would be different, but 2 readings that have to agree for something as important as throttle position makes sense.
@@mykofreder1682 The sensor is intentionally designed to have different voltages representing the same position. The computer is of course programmed to recalculate each voltage to the correct position. So even when one sensor gives 1V and the second 2V, the calculated position would be the same ~40% from both. If the result matches, computer gets the result as a correct input. But when there is a short circuit between the two wires, it sees the same e.g.1.5V on both lines, so when recalculated, the recalculated result for first sensor would be 60%, but from the second 30%. Because both should represent the same pedal position, which is impossible, so the computer recognizes there is a fault, can disregard the input as wrong (so goes to limp) and so then sets that mismatch code.
Generally there are two principal techniques are used for such redundancy purpose:
One voltage being half compare to the other (one has 0% at 0.25V and 100% at 2.25V, second has 0% at 0.5V and 100% at 4.5V; e.g. this Honda),
then each going from the opposite direction (e.g. one has 0% at 0.5V and 100% at 4.5V, the second has 0% at 4.5V and 100% at 0.5V)
Or some variation of both (one goes from 0.5->2.25 and the second 4.5->2.75 or so).
All the time the driver circuit in the sensor uses the same output stage (e.g. pull up; or the one side is stronger than the other), so when shorted the one attempting to drive higher voltage wins, so result is again position mismatch.
I (X-harness designer) would think if they have two sensors, one goes pop, you can still drive the car with the good sensor. All be it in Limp mode because the computer knows you have potentially a dangerous scenario. Your concept of differences in grounds is not sustainable as ground voltages can easily vary at different locations due to ground surges or loads. I would never use ground other than ground and would expect it to be zero Volts from a design viewpoint.
I appreciate your redundancy hypothesis, usually MAP v.MAF etc for IAC and so on.
I had another make of car with sensor 2 having 1/2 the voltage of sensor 1.
@@mykofreder1682 two different voltages ensures that there must be two valid signals present - if they read the same voltage, you have an issue and the engine goes into limp-home mode.
Also, the idea with two inverted voltages does not work (one sensor 0.5-4.5V, the other 4.5-0.5V). In that case, a short between the two signal wires would read as a valid 50% throttle position (2.5V), something you most definitely do not want.
Remember, this sensor is telling the ECU to which position the throttle valve should move; so any false reading has the same consequences as a sticking throttle cable!
Running a higher current through a multi--strand wire with some conductors having high resistance connections can sometimes heat the resistance enough to weld through the resistance. That "thermal junction" looked to me like a heat shrink compression joint used instead of a crip or solder. There were exposed conductors inside the plastic cap. Perhaps the branch being tested had surface oxidation and handling broke through the oxide. Doxit followed by solvent rinse? Then solder or mechanical splice.
Less than half way through this video you established that touching a harness in a specific spot recreates the problem yet you still haven't opened up the harness covering. My guess is chafed wiring under the plastic or you're upsetting a ground connection by tugging on the harness.
Agree with JimR. Open harness along the route where you were repeating the fault. Likely you moved the bared or punctured wire by moving the loom. Prob not what you wanted to hear.
I agree, at that point I'd overlay a new signal and ground wire from sensor ,test drive and see where u end up.
I don't think it is a ground connection problem, the ECT sensor ground didn't change at all. My guess it is a broken ground wire from the splice to the pedal sensor.
I love watching you during the diagnostic process, however I have to chuckle every time that you find something that's totally out of the normal expectations and respond with "that's totally cool". I don't think a lot of technicians are as excited to find things out of the usual as much as you are, but your end results more than speak for themselves, and the quality of teaching that you do is amazing!
Thanks for the kind words, Duane! It's the most exciting part of the job...finding issues that you haven't seen before and learning something new :)
I love how he asks simple questions.."sure there is the signal..is that right? Lets check the dealer specs
When I see part 1 I know he’s going to leave us on a cliffhanger 😂
⏱😬☀️
A remedial fix would be to just short out the two ground wires at the sensor connector.
Disconnect the sensors and ECM and pump in 100A from the APP sensor ground lead. First spot to smoke is your bad connection, "burn it in the clear". Joking of course.....
Why a joke? Many people do this, it gives results!
@@engeneer_ru5827 But also maybe more damage haha
Also, with your test light, you're probing poorly. You are checking for a ground fault in a 5V supplied circuit, with a test light supplied by 12V. That means then5V sensor supply will act as a sink if the ground wire is broken, leading to a slightly less bright test light, but it will remain lit!
Yeah I cringed at that, 5v no likey the 12v probe.
Interesting point! I've never seen a 12V light "backfeed" through a 5V regulator. Would make for an interesting experiment :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics yeah if you're feeding it from the +12v of the battery and you stick it on the ground wire of the 5v circuit and the ground connection is open circuit, it will try and push the 5v up to 12v. Easily checked beforehand, if you're seeing 5v on the ground wire then the ground connection is likely open circuit and should be investigated as such.
@@TheFool2cool Yup, it was indeed intermittently open on the ground...I usually rig up a small test light in that case and do the wiggle check while looking at the light. Except in this case the current from the light somehow "fixed" the open ground...never had that happen before :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Current can fix a connection. More often with switch contacts. The current burns off the oxidation and allows for a good contact. Likewise, mechanical movement can clean the contacts. At this point, I'd say that you have a connection with defective/corroded bonding. It's this close to being a good connection, but there's a light oxidation layer between them.
My 05 TL had a similar issue, I just replaced the accelerator pedal sensor. Works fine, no issues.
I was laughing when you was pulling on the wire asking do we fix it? As you have pulled on it to fix it. I'm like duh get the knife and start cutting that issue will be back after a few drives. I know you'll fix it and find a lose nut on a ground post or something with some minor corrosion or when the heat or the motor causing it to loosen up. Part 2 please.
dont forget "THE GREEN CRUSTY'S" monster !!!
Ensure that Thermal Junctions are clean/Deoxit or just use flux and solder to reconnect the wires. Then perform the wiggle test to see if it was the problem or not.
I am with you. I think the current of the light made a better connection. Solder the joint and shrink-rap the wires. Now we wait for Part-2.
Ivan makes this stuff not only interesting but entertaining too!! My most favorite of all you tubers in this genre! 👍
Ivan, Your one hand dexterity plugging and unplugging is amazing!
Close to the thermal joints the harness it self ground with a 10mm bolt to the engine.. it is metal encased in plastic hard to see but always corroded behind where the bolt meets the engine...
I think that I'd have followed Eric O's approach to not touching broken things so that you don't accidentally fix them. Specifically, once I'd identified the problem as a harness issue, which you did really quickly early on, I'd have stuck one side of the multimeter at battery ground and then opened up the harness at various spots to check on the ground resistance. You know it's good at the ecu and bad at the sensor, so just do a bunch of piercing between the two. It'd be the Newton-Raphson method of wire - fault discovery.
Passing higher current through a wire with a bad connection is an old trick for improving the connection at the point of high resistance. The heat will often clear the poor connection to a degree but it is by no means a permanent reliable repair. It's a roll of the dice. Naturally you're improving the connection by moving the splices around which will create some friction within the splice improving it.
Personally I would take the splice apart and remake it for peace of mind being assured it's not going to fail again.
sometimes pulling on a wire will let i "seat" better against whatever it is connected to. Pulling too much will pull it out. I have theories about the bulb load "fixing" the problem, but they all end up with it being a short lived fix. I have seen it on much higher distribution voltages in the street. It will be interesting what the final outcome is.
Why would the bulb load fix anything? Pulling on wires is a tried and test method of finding poor connections.
in harness splices are just plain evil. had my share of bad ones. to the point i look for them in the circuit i'm working on. i believe what they call a "thermal joint" is where the wires are fused together with a process like spot welding. they often break from flexing one strand at a time until they are all broke and just touching each other. somewhere in that process the problems start.
Definitely one of the more interesting case studies.
And kudos to all of the commenters. I'm not an electronics guru by any means, and don't understand a lot of the concepts they mention, but I always find the comments fascinating and I learn from them.
Thanks to Ivan for this most interesting study and thanks to the knowledgeable commenters!
It's a beautiful exchange of information and experiences... Everybody learns from each other! 🙂
My thought on light load fixing circuit is the higher amperage kinda gives a weak weld from the heat of increased amperage in circuit at weak connection. Will usually break again if not properly fixed.
Exactly :)
Maybe even the heat generated by the higher current is increasing the contact pressure in the "thermal joint", thus reducing resistance across that coupling.
Next step: I would check the oil and call it done.
😂
The Honda 2.4 is a notorious oil burner lol
Thanks for bring us along. We're anxious to learn the ultimate problem.
I would check that splice joint solder it shrink wrap it make it watertight and run a nice new ground wire overlay to the app be sensor and go from there but it's it's nice to have rhyme or reason to wear the problem is in the harness with the voltage drop I agree great video can't wait for part two
Great lessons here Ivan. Thanks!
I would look at the throttle peddle and note all the colours, then the under bonnet harness gets a good fondling and tugging wire by wire :-D
That thermal junction might be a safety device in case of fire in the engine bay, still sounds dodgy as hell though.
Do you think that fire would reliably disconnect wires inside that little sock? They looked to be twisted together. Why would you want sensor grounds disconnected in a fire anyway? Large power feeds or something like a fuel pump feed I can understand, but the APP sensor??
Let the Pine Hollow binge watching begin.....
I had the engine out on my '03 Forester to replace head gaskets. Got it back together. Ran poorly! Got codes for TPS and ICV. I could wiggle the connection on the TPS and get different values on my scanner. I was getting ready to put in a different pig tail on the TPS. Turns out, I had missed tightening a ground wire group. I must have been bumping the loose ground wires with my arm when I was wiggling the TPS connection. Runs great after establishing a good ground.
Awesome!
I can tell you that, As a driveway mechanic, (a parts cannon professional) Those whom live within range of Ivan, Are lucky!!!! Myself, I am always looking to improve & to do things correctly the 1st time & that us exactly why I watch specific automotive channels!!!! Those whom test b4 they guess!!!
Here's a method that may help here. Since it appears the test light "fixed" the problem, the problem area needs to be located. Disconnect all sensors and the ECM from the sensor ground reference circuit. Connect a jumper wire at the ECM connector and ground it. Next, connect a higher amperage test lamp (at least 4 amps) to battery positive and connect the other lead to the APP sensor B ground reference terminal. This will place a heavy load on the circuit which will likely help to locate the problem area in the circuit. If the test lamp can light, the trouble spot should at least heat up sufficiently to locate it.
Car is like 20yrs old, overlay some new signal/ground wires and call it a day. I'd also do a quick inspection on the motor/trans mounts to make sure the engine doesnt have excessive movement, yanking on the harness.
Ivan, looks like your in it up to your eyeballs! Can't wait to see how this one turns out! Thanks for Sharing!
On to part 2. You may have to open up the harness loom and/or that thermal splice to get a better look.
Had this similar issue in my VW some time ago. Out of nowhere the car would loose acceleration, check engine light on and a code related to throttle body position mismatch. It was worse on a rainy day. Figured out to be the wiring harness rubing against the front beam and chafered the wires that carries power to the throttle motor. When it got wet somehow the signal did not reach the TB module. Repaired the wiring and it has benn running perfect for more than 5 years.
Next step would be to remove the test light from the equation to see if the problem reappears.
I would redo the thermal connections, Ivan, for a start then check the split in the harness open it up check for chaffing
you are too good a mechanic.. myself and 4,000,000 of your viewers would have run a new ground wire from the tps about 15mins into the diagnosis and sent it out the door :)
Thank you Ivan. Great diagnostic video as always.
I'd remove the test light and give the bad connection time to cool off. By loading the circuit, you caused the connection to heat up. This resulted in thermal expansion which improved the connection. Hopefully when it cools, the bad connection will show itself. In electronics they use freeze spray to try to find bad connections. I wonder if blasting those thermal connections with freeze spray would help locate the problem?
Wow, fiddle, fiddle!! That fixes itself lol. But it seems that the wire may have pushed itself to the ground wire. But I'll see the conclusion in part 2, lol!! Great video, cool diagnosis!!
Great diagnosis and troubleshooting Ivan! Looking forward to seeing the permanent fix in the next video. Quite interested to find out your strategy for the fix. Cheers!
Resolder everything in the "thermal joint" and run an overlay wire from there to the APP sensor? It looks like it is an easy path. What the heck is a "thermal joint" anyway? Is it not actually soldered but just twisted together under some heat shrink like it looks like in the video? If so, that is really sketchy.
It looks like the bundle of wires compressed with very high pressure...never seen this "cold solder joint" technique before haha
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Makes sense from a manufacturing perspective I guess but I still wouldn't trust it. If a wire was loose in there, it would explain why jiggling things could make it 'come good'. If it is such a good technique, why doesn't every manufacturer use it? Why don't we see it more in newer Honda products? Since 2006 they have had plenty of time to see how well it works and it seems they decided it is not worthwhile?
Wires mashed together is a widely used method in mass production
Home suffering with head cold. Thanks for video
Get well soon!
we are waiting for the second part, greetings Iván 😅😀
It has to be between the splice and the APP-B sensor, with it more being a little more likely coming from the splice, but I think I would let to cool off for awhile and come back to it checking the splice first before it has a chance to heat up again.
Man that Think Tool Software looks exactly like my Launch!
Heat and or arcing?
Nice detective work ivsn.thats what i afmire about your work👌
Nice Vid bro! Intriguing Diag and superb demonstration! Anyone owning a 04-08 Nissan VQ 6/10 chance knows how these same codes are as well.
This is a scenario most DIY venturing maxima/alti v6/350z owners and swear they are problematic POS's can relate to:
A>get any/all of those same codes (usually after good heat soak - brings car to a halt/1500rpm cut/sounds catastrophic to non car folk with all the backfire esp if they were revved out high in a manual when it happens lol. Then;
B>buy a oem gas pedal (250$+ then labor if you have a alum pedal car) - clear codes - Good!
C>In near future, comes back with identical issue> code now for the 1+/6 Throttle Body failures with possibility for flashing SES light>Replaces TB(200+ at dealer)>clear>Good!
D>In VERY near future>sells car at a loss because its a POS and their over $700 into a "serious" problem with 0 solutions.
*VQ owning Reader- does this sound like a debilitating portion of your life?(Does mine lmao)
-All it probably ever needed was a new connector at the throttle body. They all sucked lol. I've gotten pretty good deals on a few 05-06 Altima SE-R's because they were having this exact same problem Ivan's attacking here! Two were 6 speed manuals! Both fixed with a new connector lol.
Good day to all!
Dang that started as a fun diag until you accidentally fixed it then it turned into a tugging war from frustration 😂 I feel you there Ivan. I’m sure it’s somewhere close to where you could recreate the problem!
add a seperate ground wire to that sensor ground
My guess is that the wire inside of the plastic sleeve is damaged and running together with another wire. Or not making contact at all my next action would be to run a external ground wire and just tell the owner to drive it hard and see if it breaks down again :)
I would replace that suspicious ground wire right into the Thermal Connection. Leave it at that and tell customer that you fixed a fault that you diagnosed (intermittent). Chances are it will be ok or not ok, you take a 50/50 gamble.
Obviously if the symptoms return there is something more serious somewhere and take it from there.
Customer drove 3+ hours to get a 100% diag and repair, so I'm not doing a 50/50 gamble haha
You also had a Circuit too low DTC. A bad ground doesn't cause that only ref or signal wire could do that.
Love your videos. keep up the good work.
Yeah not sure how to explain the "LOW Voltage" DTC!
The bad ground seems to be just some crusty contact (mainly dry solder joint), which usually has a kind of semiconductor properties (copper oxide was used as a principal semiconductor material to actually manufacture rectifiers before the Ge or Si semiconductor technologies took over). Once you connect the higher load, it locally heats up, forms a micro weld or something like that and becomes conducting well for a while. So that is quite normal behavior for such defects and why it could be deceptive to test them with such high current tester - it may "heal the contact" for a while and so make your diagnostic difficult...
That's exactly what happened :)
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics It is therefore better to use a continuity tester function of a multimeter than such light. The multimeters use barely 200mV test voltage and currents below 1mA, so voltage low enough to not be able to electrically break down the thin oxide layer (for breakdown, you need at least few volts to accelerate the electrons to cause any change in the material so posibly "repairing the connection". Below 1V the electrons do not get fast enough to alter anything).
I would move the wires and see if the condition comes back, if it is intermittent, with engine vibration, the connecter may be losing the ground if the connecter is sliding apart slightly. Maybe the ground is not seated properly in the connecter or are frayed wires in the wire itself.
Great videos Ivan. I appreciate your inquisitive nature. On a side note I got my PHAD transducer kit last night. Can't wait to try it out. It will be a double learning curve as we pair it up with the Autel Ultra. We got to try the Autel out at SEMA and decided to give it a go.
That's awesome! Enjoy the transducer!
Use the force Ivan
Install a long green / yellow ground jumper, call it done.
Running 12v through a circuit designed for 5v isn't a good idea. I would have tied a scope to it and tracked it using a wiring diagram. Running extra current can heat up a bad connection and get it going again.
Ivan, what would you do out here in the desert? Our wires, as well as our cars, don't rust, the rattle snakes eat the mice and none of these problems that make up the majority of your videos exist. Now the paint gets eaten off of our cars by the sun, and the rare sandstorm, so my friend's body shop is always busy doing complete resprays (nobody paints a complete car back in the rustbelt as the car disintegrates prior to that being needed) and the engine swap out guys have a heathy business since our engines wear out after about 200,000 miles (although the car's bodies are perfect) but green crusties and rusted out ground connections don't exist.
Yeah I would probably get really bored in AZ 😅
frustration = amount of time/effort to locate an illusive fault! After replacing my water heater no hot water to dishwasher. Disconnected water feed hose at both ends and could easily blow thru it. Reconnected it and still no water. Turns out the hose went into shut down after 1st reapplication of water TOO FAST = water hammer that hose was designed to prevent. Hose passed air but not water. Replaced hose and all was well. Don't ever disregard the laws of physics. Note: defective hose goes to shutdown whenever pressure is present AFTER THAT FIRST WATER HAMMER EVENT.
looking forward for the next video in part 2 just to say sth about your lead and the multimeter,
i know it's hard to record a video one hand and diagnostic at the same time but ,the way you connect the leads make me confusing ,stop and watch several times trying to understand the pattern of the leads,just make me more confused🙂
do a favor please , explain briefly how you connect the leads in the circuit.
Best whishes.
I've been meaning to say this for a while now but it still amazes me how many people keep on throwing parts at a car without doing some research first and how many watch your channel Ivan to know that throwing parts at the issue is not the right way to fix cars etc. I get that "NEW" parts sometimes don't work as they should but there are channels like yours that consistently say not to become a "Parts Changer" as you could also create other issues alomg the way without realising.
unplug the test light. I think it's giving you a false ground. or leave it in permanently and tell the guy if the bulb ever burns out, replace it. no more app issues.. lol
If you're going to run high current through a circuit to test connections, be ready with a thermal imager to find the hot spot(s).
I didn't think 300mA was "high current", but apparently it was enough to reestablish a better connection haha
By high current, I mean relative to the normal current for that circuit. If your going to stress test a circuit, you might as well flow a few amps through it and really heat up that bad connection/broken wire.
My next move would be a simple ohm test on the wire from the sensor to the soldered splice. ( I don't have all those fancy scopes and scan tools)
Ohm test would show that the connection is perfect :)
Great video.
It looks like there are clusters of wired at a common voltage joined together, most likely by some machine then capped. It's probably very good but not perfect over time. My first attempt would be to hold all the wires together (so they don't go flying if they are just held together mechanically), remove the cap and see how the connection is done, from pressure of the cap or solder. Regardless, it probably has to be reheated and soldered.
No solder. It's a "cold joint"...wires fused together by some massive crimping pressure lol
I'm guessing that the current from the test light blew out the short circuit which was acting like a fuse. Maybe a wire fragment about the width of a human hair, or a conductive salt water Intrusion.
DANGEROUS DANGEROUS!
What was the resolve of the previous “DANGEROUS Honda Electric Steering (Severe Pull)” Honda sensor issue?
No idea, never headr back from the auction car lot haha
Auctions usually work on the bigger idiot principal
I'm from County College, PA
Dear Lord, Give us the wisdom to connect to the battery ground before we fight the electronic demons. AMEN
What would I do? wait for part 2 cause I don't have a clue
Next step? Make borscht, swap for car advice with Ivan.
The light pulls more amps than the sensor does
14:17 if it was a ground problem then it would be with bolth APP sensor data pids, not just the sensor B, i still think this is a single signal wire issue, curious to see what happens when you pull it apart at this point
26:29 so you push on the harness in a particular spot and the voltages go crazy, i would have started pulling it out/apart and investigating, maybe i missed something
I just pushed g35 a mile on my city streets. Towing is just too depressing
Splice from coolant sensor ground wire to APP ground wire and we’re done. Thats what i’d do
I'D TELL HIM TO TRADE IN!
What is a thermal joint?
Looks like you powered through some green crusties with your test light and reestablished the ground connection, great diag and observation.
No it doesnt work like that at all.
If you knew the sensor grounds were bad, could you have just ran solid grounds to the sensor instead of finding the break?
I have learned that it's better to invest time to find the root cause of the problem, because you might find more surprises in the same location :) You will see in Part 2!
@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics awesome.
But my question is, would running grounds still work?
I hate new cars! My Nissan 94 pickup is sooooo much simpler that I can work on it. Now they have modules for everything.
Yup. Got a real fun one coming up on a 13 Murano where the dealer quoted 7 THOUSAND dollars to replace a module...and it wasn't even the right one hahahaha
Could you bypass the bad ground to battery?
What the hell is a Thermo-joint?????😮
These problems are why I have grey hair my friend. I thought you had it a t the thermal connector.
I thought so too! So close...
Ivan your camera is blurry for some reason.
Hey Ivan can I pick your brain maybe you got some ideas, got an 07 Hyundai I’m dealing with, it throws lean bank 1 and bank 2. Start the car up and straight away bank 1 and 2 show about plus 20 short term, upstream O2 sensors look fine but the downstream O2s are stuck at about .42MV, if you attempt to force it rich or lean the downstreams will not respond at all no matter what. After the car idles for about 45 minutes or so the downstreams will slowly start to rise to .7 and the fuel trims will level out to an acceptable range, at which point you can now get the downstreams to respond if you force rich or force lean the engine. I did try to replace just one of the O2s which did not make a difference. No other codes set in the PCM. Possible the heater circuit for the downstreams is not working correctly? Would that cause this issue? Never really come across this and it’s sort of kicking my butt.
Mysterious
I'm only 2 minutes into the video and my guess is intermittent bad connections due to the Green Crusties !!! Let's see if I was close.
Good guess, but it gets more interesting :)
My next step would be to give up and call you.
What is "thermal joint" ??? I guess we have to wait... I have lost some respect for German precision. Those bundle caps look really sketchy. I had Audi Quattro; gave me 240Kmi over 20 years. Most fun, reliable car I ever had.
Spray the connections with deoxit.
Hi Ivan what is a good scan tool that you recommend? I'm thinking about picking up the autel elite.
ThinkTool Pros with Launch software. See description!
Spanky lost.
I would at least get a look at the sensor at the pedal, rule it out if nothing else
How would you "look" at it? We proved the ground on Sensor B was intermittently dropping out within 10 minutes! Now finding the location of the fault is the hard part :)
Time to start cutting away the wire looms near where the problem showed itself. You moved something for now but I'm sure it will happen again..
Leave it to honda to "fix itself".
Иван, ты так любишь применять байпас, для проверки! Почему, в этом случае, не захотел продублировать провод массы?