Guitar Myth-Busting! Are Paper-In-Oil Capacitors Better? | Guitar Tweakz
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- Опубликовано: 23 июл 2024
- #guitars #guitarelectronics
I really REALLY wanted to compare paper-in-oil "vintage" capacitors with modern ones. I swapped enough of them over the last years but I never invested the time for a proper shootout. Now is the time, let's do some myth-busting. Enjoy Guitar Tweakz!
Here are the two capacitors from the video (Thomann affiliate links):
Mojotone paper-in-oil: bit.ly/3lZdJbH
Orange drop: bit.ly/3jkM5nU
Follow me on instagram: @kris_barocsi
** Why the "Includes paid promotion" message? **
According to german laws everyone has to mark their videos as advertisements as soon as there's a single "subject relevant" product, tag or link in it. Even if you didn't get paid for making that video. Sounds confusing and it really doesn't help the viewer to see which is a paid review and which isn't.
--- The line of truth: Is this actually a paid review? No it isn't. (I update this line for every video).
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
0:22 Intro playing | PJD St John + Kasleder Toxic Twins
0:50 What are we doing today
1:20 The guitar of the day: Johnny :)
2:26 Playing | PJD St John + Kasleder Toxic Twins + UAFX Golden
2:48 The comparison rounds are...
3:58 Let's swap the orange drop cap
5:52 ROUND 1 | Neck P90 Clean | Tone at 10
6:35 ROUND 2 | Both pickups clean
7:48 ROUND 3 | Bridge humbucker (Toxic Twins)
9:17 ROUND 4 | Neck P90 overdriven (Toxic Twins)
10:44 First impressions
11:14 It felt different using the two caps
12:00 "Let's play some more"
Gear used in this video:
(the Bitly links are Thomann affiliate links)
-PJD Guitars St John: pjdguitars.com/
-Kasleder Toxic Twins: bit.ly/2VJRDiO
-UAFX Golden Reverb: bit.ly/3vS36JN
-REVV Dynamis 7/40 head: bit.ly/2IxwoId
-Universal Audio OX BOX bit.ly/2IyOeuj
-One Control Agamidae switcher: bit.ly/2YZgiib
-Cordial CRI series cables: bit.ly/2XiVLBR
-Evidence Audio patch cables: bit.ly/2Ixylo1
Other gear I use in my videos:
-Fender Telecaster Custom Shop '53 reissue
(a similar custom shop tele: bit.ly/2KFVJld)
-Harley Benton Fusion-II Roasted SSP bit.ly/31FVawf
-Gibson Les Paul Custom Shop '58 reissue bit.ly/2FxKvek
-Gibson Les Paul CM 2015 - heavily modified (thin nitro refin; Lollar Dog Ear P90; Emerson electronics)
-Barocsi Troublecaster - Custom built T-style guitar with Gretsch Filtertrons
-Barocsi "Frankenstrat" (2000 Fender American Standard body + Warmoth neck)
-Kasleder Time Trap delay: bit.ly/3jQkha6
-Xotic Super Clean: bit.ly/36fsHka
-Honey Bee Double Trouble: bit.ly/33COaU3
-Walrus Audio D1 Delay: bit.ly/2W4McqU
-Supro Tremolo
-REVV G2: bit.ly/2NbpV9R
-Walrus Audio Lillian phaser: bit.ly/3czfxB8
-Analogman King of Tone analogman.com
-Tate FX Raise the Dead Ge: tatefx.co.uk
-Dunlop Gypsy Fuzz pedal: bit.ly/2VKw4K0
-J Rockett Archer overdrive: bit.ly/2Ges1z8
-Two Notes Captor X: bit.ly/33FPfcW
-Morgan 1x12 cab Twilight: bit.ly/2KFihDq
-NUX SOS Looper bit.ly/31TMxPx
-Ernie Ball cables and strap: bit.ly/2Io0dfg
The speech mic:
-SENNHEISER MKH 416: bit.ly/2w1EAMP
Audio Interface:
-Audient iD44: bit.ly/2Jo73zN
Check out the Thomann Music channel for some wicked guitar videos:
/ musikhausthomann
Cheers,
Kris 
Видеоклипы
Your demos are great by the way!
Thanks for not talking in between samples
It really lets us hear the difference!
Im definitely getting an old school cap
Thank you for this thorough demo. The difference is noticeable when you are running the tone pot down, particularly halfway. P&O is mellower, cuts the highs just a bit and therefore enhances the mids. I have a P&O cap on 2 teles, and orange drop on 2 others. The Orange drop ones are definitely more chimey, and put out a more "modern" tone. I use them mostly for rythm parts. The 2 others are vintage spec'd, also in aspect, and are breathtaking in bluesy solos. To each his own... ! Cheers Kris
Hi Kris. Great video there's a lot of things that can effect the tone even with the same value of capacitors, they all create a bandpass filter effect for specific frequencies. Things like physical size, dielectric, type of materials used for composition, also Voltage rating can be over size or smaller, even the orientation of the component with regards to the ground sheilding can also make a difference. Thanks, all the best with your Sonic quest.
Take care best regards. John.
Amazing playing!...and I did notice the warmer yet Crystal clear tonality of the paper in oil capacitor when I played it through my studio monitors and Thanks by the way. .you've helped me make up my mind and go with a swap for my ernie ball music man st vincent I m positive it'll be a great match for the dimarzio mini humbuckers.. I've been contemplating it for a couple years..but I'm all in now thx! Now I'm going to go have another listen you'vegot an amazing tone ! ..and I want that guitar !...
great video! i noticed more of a difference in the bridge pickup than the neck p90. honestly, both caps sound great, but the bridge with the paper in oil sounded so pretty.
Wow, what an excellent AB comparison. Kris you have literally oepened my ears to something remarkable. Great demo, great guitarist!
Very interesting comparison. I preferred the paper oil when the tone was rolled back, that was more obvious with clean tones than with distortion.
Kris your videos are the best on RUclips thank you for your passion and invaluable information ❤🙏🏼
Thumbs up. What I heard across the board on all of the tests was that, the orange drop are kind of shrill, where the PIO have more frequency width, where the slight curve of frequencies in the mids made the tone more dimensional, which gave the whole note more depth. To me anyway. I’ve watched both videos now and it is very interesting regarding two different cap value differences. Just got an older ‘56 Gold Top with P90’s that going to mod. I’ve got different manufactured NOS .022 PIO caps in my cap box, most are Russian. It will be interesting to hear the difference, when putting the lower value in the bridge, and the higher neck. I’m doing BKP 550 pots with an audio taper of 20%. It will be really interesting to hear the difference.
The other thing I want to mention is that the comments have been as interesting as the videos. Thanks, it’s really opened my eyes to how I look at caps!
It sounds as if there are less highs and a bit more mids with the paper-oil. I recently built an esquire where I have an orange drop on the classic tone and a paper oil (not of the same value obviously )for the eldred mod and the feel, tone aside, is very different. All that time I thought that it was just the nature of the eldred mod but after this video I can see that there is more to it. Thank you for the great content once again Kris 🤘
After watching this I searched for videos comparing caps and found a cool idea in a StewMac video where he wired two caps to a switch that’s connected to the guitar via crocodile clamps. That way you can really compare them A to B while playing.
thanks alot Kris !! vitamin sounded more open and clear even on youtube !! for tone lover ! i definitly whant that in my Les Paul !!!
I didn't expect to notice as much difference as I did. Through my studio monitors the difference was more obvious, especially on the neck pup. On the neck P90 overdriven part, the pick attack sound is quite different. The PIO cap just sounds sweeter to me, but I think the orange drop has a more usable tone variation. Thought the PIO got too muddy past halfway. I splashed out for a pretty expensive PIO cap for one of my guitars recently. Didn't do an A/B, but I'm pretty happy the end product.
Personally, I would go with the brighter cap. You can always roll tone off. You can’t add it.
When my Std 50s LP gets here, I'm swapping the ODs for Bumblebees. This video simply verified what I already knew. Thanks for taking the time for this demo, Kris.
OMG!!! I was expecting to not hear a difference whatsoever but it’s actually a night and day difference! The vitamin T literally sounds so much smoother and yes… even prettier! I am listening on a pretty expensive pair of headsets so I’m pretty sure I’m not just hearing things. Again, I completely expected to not hear a difference! I’m honestly shocked!
There is a "FLY IN THE OINTMENT" that I did not know about until a couple weeks ago. Capacitors have a "Polarity" that affects "noise" and may affect tone. Please watch this 6 minute RUclips video: "Testing capacitors for orientation of outside foil end". It shows you how to test for polarity to make sure the proper leg of the capacitor is being sent to ground. There are other videos on RUclips regarding this topic including ones that tested the capacitors with an Oscilloscope.
I followed the instructions in the video and tested 3 Orange Drop Capacitors that I have, and as mentioned in the video, the printing on the capacitor does NOT indicate which leg is the "outside foil end." I didn't have an Amp handy to test the capacitors so I used my HX Stomp and connected the capacitors to the Input Jack, using a cable as shown in the video. I had to turn up my Stomp all the way to hear the difference in noise when touching the capacitor, but it was there. I have since made sure my capacitors are properly oriented/connected to the pot and ground.
I only tested the capacitors to determine which leg was the "outside foil end" to eliminate possible noise. I did not test them to see if or how that affected the tone. I would not be surprised if it did, as capacitors send high frequencies to ground when used on a tone pot.
@Kris - Did you test the capacitance of each before they were installed? I'd be interested in knowing if they were identical. I'd heard that if the capacitors have the same rating, they'll sound pretty much the same. You video proved that to be totally false (assuming both were properly oriented as described above). The paper-in-oil "vintage" capacitors sounded noticeable warmer and smoother than the modern Orange Drop capacitor. So much so, that I have to consider trying one, though I would like to first see if that warmth and smoothness could be achieved by simply turning down the tone pot a little with an Orange Drop Capacitor being used.
The video was very interesting, shocking, and as it turned out, it could have been an add for "Why you need a paper-in-oil "vintage" capacitor." Myth confirmed! Thanks
I too saw that or a similar video on capacitor polarity. It hadn’t occurred to me before, but was one of those “obvious when you think about it” moments.
@@jimblight8446 I was switching my bridge pickup to a stacked humbucker with dual rails, and wanted to make sure I knew what would be an appropriate capacitor for it, when I ran into the "polarity" info I'd never heard of before!
While there are polarized caps...the problem is that most caps are not like diodes...that is, not all caps are polarized and there is no reason why mfrs would not identify which ones are. The non-polarized types are merely two conductors with a less conductive material between them (...mylar, polyester, ceramic material, etc) Think of non-polarized caps as narrow doorways for frequencies: Frequencies are not restricted more when they pass thru in one direction vs the other.
Thus, sorry...but, if you hear a difference reversing a non-polarized cap, it is very likely in your mind only. The only way to truly verify this is with an oscilloscope &/or software to produce a Bodie plot.
@@olenfersoi8887 You can verify this by simply testing it. I did it by connecting the Caps using a Jack plugged into the Instrument Input of my HX Stomp. The difference is not big, but is easily noticeable on some Caps, not so much on others. Anyone can test easily it for themself. Just test a variety of Caps. No need to trust anyone. Just use your own ears.
Love this kind of nerdy videos ❤️
I'm hearing a bit more warmth in the PIO capacitor. Orange drop is brighter and and has more presence.
Great comparison! Thanks for doing this! I'm working on a complete electronic upgrade on one of my guitars so this information is incredibly useful!
Thank you! ❤
100% the same opinion. I do have PIO in all of my 4 guitars though. I have 50's wiring on my les paul where the tone pot is in the signal path, so there, the cap does affect the tone more.
Thanks for the video
Even if you used other orange capacitor it will may sound and feel a bit different.
That's the good point about analog electronics; no two components are equal the same.
I think it's a too nerdish question, but it is very very relevant.
As always, it's important to have very good quality components. Chances are that your sound will be better.
Glad someone make a video like this.
So coaked wha-wah sound, in the middle position (tone rolled off) is very useful.
Cheers,
I saw a comparison of the same two types of caps with the *exact* opposite result: the orange drop was the warmer of the two. Also, the difference noted here would be easily compensated for with a tweak of the guitar's tone knob or the amp's treble knob.
Technically there IS scope for a differing dynamic response from the different construction methods.
As well as Capacitance, capacitors have a little Inductive Reactance and ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance), ESL … there's a long list of possible variables.
With the larger plate area and foil mass of the paper-oil one could well imagine different inductive behaviour going on in there.
BTW Kris, I didn't see you verify the actual capacitance as opposed to the stated capacitance.
As others have noticed ...
Tolerances can vary more than you might expect.
There was enough difference to convince YOU.
It would take some Double Blind testing to verify any further than that.
Another thought, did you verify the Inner and Outer ends of both capacitors?
It IS a thing you know.
More of a noise shielding thing than tone usually, but at these cork sniffing levels it might be a contributing factor also.
Exactly, there are more values on capacitors, then capacitance.
I just wonder. Did you test the caps to see if they read the same? Could the difference be in the tolerance between caps? Possibly. Enough of a difference to make a difference? Hmm...not really. You nailed it when you said “will your audience know the difference? Nope.” As usual, awesome video brother!
without having done that, this comparison not very useful. sorry, i love Kris' videos, but without having checked the actual value (as opposed to nominal value), we only were proven that one capacitor sounds different compared to a different capacitor. the material of the capacitors is different, we know that, and the value is.... we don't know if it is different or not. so I am asking for a followup, please.
@@tolvajakos Totally agree. The tolerance of capacitors varies greatly from about 5% (the better modern ones, but orange drops are not even that good, they are listed as having 10% tolerance by the manufacturer) up to even 20% (more the electrolytics and wait... yes, those old paper-in-oil caps :) )
And for me this doesn't matter at all, I usually either have the tone pot turned all the way up or even removed. I use it only in one-pickup guitars, like the LP Junior.
@@tolvajakos of course it is not possible, that 1 cap will sound different to other, if they have all the values the same. What is often forgotten is, that capacitor (or potenciometer, resistor etc) has also other values then capacity ;)
Hey guys, I’ll measure these two caps for you soon in another video and tell you my thoughts on this and explain why I didn’t measure them in the first place. 👍 Cheers!
@@KrisBarocsi Thank you! Looking forward to it.
Very interesting video.
The difference is more noticeable on clean sounds.
Subtle differences, but when you rolled off the tone knob there was a noticeable clarity that wasn’t present with the modern cap. Thanks for a great video.
it would've been better if you also include the smaller caps which are very common. Thanks for this comparison vid!
different types of capacitors may distort the audio signal for example ceramics, also that may have a different inductance and resistance due to the manufacturing process also the quality factor of each cap may be different
Agreed with you and many others here. The difference would not be noticed by an audience but it was surprisingly obvious to me. But as someone else said, you should measure the actual value of each cap because that alone could account for a difference. For exemple, the difference between a .022 and .047 in both Strats and Teles is drastic. In my Tele, a 0.22 makes for a tone that is way too bright. In my Strat with the pickups I have it's great (orange drops in both cases).
I also am using a Vitamin T o/p .22 ,but I also have a Mojo tone o/p .47 ,that I can switch between on a P/P pot.
Works great. Especially coil splitting . In an 1991 ESP/LTD ec400vf.
Nice video! I did a similar experiment on my italian channel with 4 different caps of same value different materials. You could clearly hear the difference. I do like paper in oil, very clearer than the others i tried, but don't really use much the tone knob so...🤷
Let me put it like this, I have one guitar with a paper oil cap and that is the only one I love messing with the tone knob on. It's an SSS strat...... now after seeing this, going to upgrade a couple more of my guitars with HH and P90 configs. There was a real smoothness especially in the Neck P90 that I loved, but hey then again it would be minimal to the audience but not to me. Before I get called a cork sniffer..... I do not drink alcohol so no wine bottles.... coffee sniffer...hmmmm maybe.....but experimentation makes the modding world go round.
I suspect the difference we are hearing is due to the two capacitors being in a different part of their tolerance range, rather than the difference in dielectric material. In the links Kris gives us, the tolerance of the paper in oil cap is given as +/- 10% which is described as 'very accurate'. The tolerance of the orange drop cap is not stated
that's actually the real test. Most people seem to forget that there is a tolerance level. Watch the last Andertons about the Klon. same story.
The real test is to measure 100 of each type. Match them up as accurately as possible and compare them across the range.
That would be a scientific approach to sound, or at least an real attempt. Have you ever seen that?
The hysteresis is different even if the uF value is the same. You can hear it.
All you have to do is measure them 🤷 Even the cheapest digital multimeters measure capacitance. It's not magic lol
@@JC-11111 Hey guys, and that’s what I‘ll do very soon in a video. I’ll measure these two caps for you and tell you why I didn’t measure them in the first place. 👍 Cheers!
I've swapped a LOT of caps, and the material definitely does make a difference.
To my ears, Paper in Oil have be best sound, having more "air", "openness", and make the guitar "come alive". Ceramic is the next best, but is a bit too bright, clean, and sterile compared to Paper in Oil. Everything else makes every guitar I've tried them in sound "dead" and "lifeless", and that includes Orange Drops.
It doesn't matter whether it's an .015 uf, .022 uf, or .047 uf, Paper in Oil's just sound better when compared to other materials, and you'd be hard pressed to hear any difference from one in the same value range to another, as the tolerances don't make as much of a difference in what you hear as the material the caps are made of themselves.
This is my conclusion after a few years worth of real world testing of pretty much every kind of cap out there that I could find.
Definitely cleaner and slightly warmer. Before I upgrade pickups I lower them and if that doesn't work I try other value capacitors. The latter usually saves me time and money.
Paper oil seemed slightly mellower & warmer when clean, but not too much. My VOS Customshop es335 also has them and it sounds beautiful along with the microphonics from the unwaxed custumbucker alnico lll pickups
Do you think using VERY LOW values like .0047 or .0033 in a Strat will work well or be too subtle? I recently tried .010 and absolutely love it so I’m wondering if it would be worth trying even lower
Damn, that Paper in Oil cap is the cat's meow...! THAT's a great sound... I've got orange drop caps in my Les Paul and have just felt it was a bit "flat" sounding... kinda what I'm hearing with the orange drop in your guitar. The paper in oil sounds more 3-Dimensional, with clearer mids, more depth the the bottom end, and more nuances overall... and I don't care if the audience can tell a difference, it's about the guitar speaking for me... I just ordered up some PIO caps... thanks for the demo...!
I couldn't hear much of a difference between them , but there is a chance that if you try a different value paper in oil cap like go from .22 to .33 to .47 which are the most commonly used. Or use random values and see. That could be a great follow-up video.
Interesting video, but would the difference be less with modern wiring?
That guitar sounded beautiful from the beginning. The cap swap did add a bit more sweetness, but it was small nonetheless. To me, I'd go with the PIO cap. Why not make an already awesome guitar even better for a small price.
Years ago I bulked bought a couple of huge boxes of a hundreds of NOS Russian PIO caps. I haven't used many about 20 from each box. But I did notice that each one sounded different than the others when tested with each other. Some darker and some brighter. I think it could have been that some have dried up a little. But saying this, they all sounded better than the standard caps I was using prior..
no jokes, could you sell me a couple? looking for a 0.015uf and a 0.47uf
One thing I've noticed is not all paper in oil caps sound the same. I've tried the Duellund Paper in oil 0.022 with humbuckers and didn't like it when rolling down tone, but then I tried the Emerson Custom paper in oil of the same value and it sounded a million times better. The Emerson Custom Paper in oil caps are my go to caps.
Chris your channel is very interesting
Keep it up and you'll be the king of RUclips 😍
You teach me a lot of things 👍
Thanks to you I am progressing.
Haha, I’m not sure about that but still, thanks so much for the kind words! 😅🥳
I really like the paper in oil tone more. It is very subtle but it did sound a tiny bit darker and smoother. Might buy some just to see for myself in a few guitars i find bright.
great video! thank you very much:)
I thought the PIO cap made it sound warmer and a little fatter, definitely sounded more different in the mids. I watched one video, can't remember who did it, but he put all the different type and value caps on a board connected to a selector switch and his pickup so he could switch to different caps while he was playing and you could hear the difference between them. I think in his video I liked the PIO cap sound the best as well.
Subtle difference. A little warmer/smoother for the PIO IMO; but really probably not noticaaeable in a band situation. I'm sticking a PIO in my Gretsch Electro Jet - let's see how it goes... Always nice to do little experiments.
Did you check them with a meter and make sure they measured the same? Because caps of the same make and model can sound different between each other because of the tolerance in capacitance
Can the sound of "ok" pickup be improve with that mod ?
Gimmick for tone sniffers. Next 10w-30 or olive oil in your caps lol. Dang I was wrong. Nooooo. Questioning all life choices….
Are you going to keep the paper in oil or go back to orange cap?
😂 Love it. I don’t know yet, I quite like both. The orange drop is a bit more modern and the Mojotone is sweeeet. I think I’ll stick to the paper-oil first and see how I like it.
10w-30? Man what bullshit, you gotta use at least 10w-60, gotta have that thermal stability for high performance.
@@valebliz 😂🤣 Love it. Oh how about a capacitor that you can change the oil on the fly. Truly get dorky with it.
@@forester057 that's an idea to make money with lmao
I changed a lot of Capacitors in my Guitars. The Bumblebee style is not different in sound if it has the same capacity as the Orangedrop. That is missing in Your Video.The Caps are delivered in a tolerance of +- 5% if they are good quality ! I never picked two with the exact same Value of nanofarad !!! I think that the magnetism of the Pickups influences Foil-caps more the ceramic caps. That may be a little fact for a difference, Keep on going with Your interesting good Videos.
I used to do not use the tone control on my guitars till the day I've tried a guitar (Gibson) with paper in oil ... it's just like play a transitor amp or tube amp ... much more organic. I remember I asked my luthier to unwire all my tone pot (only use volume) and I came back with a stock of PIO from Russia. And I also add treble bleed on volume control (330) as I was always on 10 !!! I can have now so many sounds only just with the volume knob. I've tried a lot (orange drop ...) and the best for me is 0.22uf PIO on all my guitars (included single coil)
And how do you calculate the voltage of these capacitors?
Next time, you can just use alligator clips & wires to connect the different caps rather than solder and desolder over and over. You can also do that if you want to test out different rating caps of the same type(all orange drop, etc...) and decide what you think sounds best before soldering it in. See whether you like .022 better than .047 or even try something like a .001 🤷
I use paper in oil for all my builds and mods. The A/B on this video was night and day and that completely confirmed and justified all the money I have spent over the years. It was obvious to me and I was able to blindly pick out which cap i was hearing by having another person start the video at a different point with perfect results.
i've always used orange drops. but i agree with you, it is night and day.
The Mojotone Vitamin T caps are the best. Especially when paired with their vintage taper pots. Have yet to find anything better.
I like them a lot too. I put them in 2-3 guitars already and I always loved what they did to the tone pot. Cheers
The tone with the paper oil st the middle tone position has a notable difference to me, it seemed to be a warmer tone with a rougher edge darker tone the lower the setting of the tone know. I liked it myself I would like to try it on my strat with hot pickups on it. It's taken time to get use to how to setup these pickups the lower the volume and tone setting are exactly the best settings in my case already and use Amp or pedal to boost the lack of volume by doing thar.
The PIO seem to be more effected than the OS by lowering the tone. Although couldn't hear it as dramatically on the neck as I could the bridge. Also it may be more evident in the room than when listening to the recording.
Living dangerously, as always, I like it. Not agreeing or disagreeing (though the heart of the matter is in whether both caps had the same exact reading), but a question comes to mind: if PJD build a 3K€ guitar (gorgeous btw) sparing no expense and even using BKP pots, why would they not use paper caps if they thought they were actually better? surely not for the 12€ difference?
Hey Chris, very interesting thoughts. I’d love to discuss this in my next Comment Time video. Cheers!
I agree with you, the paper-oil brings out a warmer, but more importantly, CLEARER tone with the pot on 10. And yes, I think it got dark sooner. Really interesting!! Cheers, mate! 🤘🏻🖤
A tone pot on 10 is in full bypass, that’s pure pickup . We Learn something new every day.
Not actually true, I tested this theory and there is still an audible difference. Try it yourself. @@theofficialdiamondlou2418
After listening to the A/B comparison I definitely concluded the paper foil cap is smoother, well rounded and what I think would be an easier tone to record. The bite of the modern orange drop is aggressive but lacks that smooth mid warmth. Impressive. I think I will try some of these vintage caps. Thanks Kris!
I noticed a difference too but I like the orange better. sounds more opened to my ears…
Exactly. There is no better or worse here. Just different flavours. 🥳
Pour les P90 les quelle qui faut? 0,047 / 250 liutopia c'est bien sa?
It seems to me that the orange caps deal better with deeper notes, but those paper oil ones are really good on the high notes?
Great video 👍👍 Not much of a difference but there is one!
There are two important differences...price and less stability with time for the paper in oil.😄
And it would have been useful to measure the precise value and tolerances of both capacitors. Little differences in value will change how the tone knob responds when it's turned...but no differences at all when the knob is on 10, because there's no work done by the capacitor when the tone knob is fully opened.
I was looking for this comment lol
You literally can’t hear the difference between the caps unless you roll the tone
I do that today in my lp with 57 classic.. I fell pío change the gain of both pickups, before (orange drops) it began break volume knob at 7, after (pio) over 8 but pio have more warm an detailed sound (feels)
did you measured both capacitors?
Question: did you measure the parameters of the capacitors to ensure that they are nominally identical (capacitance value, equivalent series resistance(ESR)?).
Asking because you can't rely on just the numbers printed on them. Capacitors generally have a 5% or 10% value tolerance, meaning that your .022uF capacitor could have a value of anything between .0198uF to .0242uF *out of the box*. ESR can be measured as well, but tends to be so low - of the order of 0.1 ohm - that it's not relevant. Also, the foil wrap direction *may* have an effect, but only insomuch as one orientation may help to reduce hum so again, not really relevant to tone.
That capacitance tolerance, however, is the main thing. It is going to be way more noticeable than minor tonal differences due to whether it's a PIO or Orange Drop; the tone circuit shapes the frequency response of the guitar according to the value of the capacitor so if you're not testing with capacitors of identically matched nominal values, the experiment unfortunately can't be trusted. a 5% difference in capacitor value means a 5% difference in where the tone control 'bites'. That's huge; nearly the difference between A (440Hz) and Bb (466Hz).
Also; maybe a blind test with somebody else changing the caps but not telling you which is fitted before you play it would be more scientific. You may not believe you have confirmation bias but it can't be helped.
Not meaning to criticise to offend, please don't take it that way!
I have spent 3 nights in a row comparing a wide range of styles of capacitors I have on hand. I can confirm that even the cheapest and smallest voltage rating ceramic disc cap compared to 600 volt real vintage orange drops and other vintage types had very very little if any difference at all, as long as the values were within .005. And almost all of the vintage caps were way out of spec and I had to choose carefully to match values to perform an accurate test. A cap measuring .022 sounded darker than one measuring even .017. I compared for hours and hours hoping my vintage poly caps would sound better. They look cool but they didn't. I ended up keeping the .022 measuring (.017-.019) disc caps that came stock in my 1991 Les Paul classic because the values were the right tone. I had just changed my pots out for Mojo tone 500k audio taper pots all were within 4% spec. and did the 50's wiring. I wanted the neck pickup when rolled all the way down to zero to have a nice warm slightly bassy singing sound. I tested cap values from .001 to .047 and the value range that sounded best was around .015 - .022 if I went to .033 it was way too dark and dull and the guitar felt harder to play. .017 even in the tiny little ceramic disc caps nailed the woman tone!! and felt like a sustaining violin the guitar notes were so smooth. I did not have any paper and oil ones on hand, but I know that I could've used my vintage orange drops or other really nice poly caps but I'll save those for my amps. Remember we are dealing with millivolts the large high voltage caps are not necessary. The ACTUAL CAP'S VALUE is far more of an audible variable than any nuance of ESL or ESR of different capacitor types and makes.
I think the difference is mainly due to the actual value deviation. I'm interested why old inferior technologies are always "better" somehow in the guitar world :)
Thank you very much for the comparison, Chris.
Now what capacitor do you have in your guitar? the original orange drop or the paper in oil?
Kris! It's different! I hate when the "secret sauce" stuff turns out true. Mostly because I have yet another thing to chase. But the orange drops weren't bad. The guitar went from great to even better.
Exactly! There’s no better or worse here, that was my point. They changed the pick attack and the tone overall but I liked both. The orange drop sounded more modern, that’s all. Thanks for watching!
In the neck position I prefer Orange Drop for the spank and clarity, for the bridge humbucker a softer attack and rounder sound of the Paper-Oil is better specially for the overdriven tones.
I have 2 Russian PIO caps waiting to go in my gold top when I swap in the pots I bought months ago. I just did it to do it 🤷 I had no predisposed beliefs of what I would or wouldn't get when I purchased them and I still don't.
orange drop was more punchy in mids and lower mids. i liked it better for overdrive sounds, but the scoop in mids was nice for clean tones. so paper and oil was better for that.
That St John is a beautiful beast, P90s sound epic. Defo keep the oil in paper caps in it, sounded very perky with those in.
It's cool trying to get the best tone but you can get many many more variations and a boost with an eq pedal.
maybe warmer treble and less ice pick tones....but maybe really maybe
but i like how it sounds its very warm
edit: also dynamics are more pronounce
I like the paper-oil cap. It sounds a little bit nicer when played clean. On distortet sound, I can't tell the difference.
Great video!
Thanks Andreas!
THE ORANGE DROP DEFINITELY SOUNDED BRIGHTER RIGHT THROUGH THE TONE RANGE BUT THE PIO CAP SOUNDED SMOOTHER TO MY EARS! I LIKE THE BRIGHTER SOUND PERSONALLY & 0.OO037NF WOULDN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE DIFFERENCE SO MAYBE CAPS DO GET SMOOTHER THE OLDER THEY GET EH?
can someone use a 1.5 uf on strat . ?
I recently replace my cheap capacitor with mojotone 600v 0.47uf and its totally change the whole sound, its louder and wide...i have more headroom to tweak it :D
I'd say do the test again, but test the caps to make sure they are as close as possible. That, and for the nerds like me, add in a super cheap SMD cap of the same value, do a double blind test. SMD caps can be had for pennies.
The orange drops have a metallic, harsher sound was as the paper in oil have a rounder, woodier sound. I think if you're playing modern rock, metal, punk, indie, or whatever you probably want the orange drops. It seems like it's going to cut through loud mix better. If you're playing jazz, blues, or even classic rock, you might want to drop the money on the paper in oil.
Oil-in paper seemed to be warmer and have more clarity across tone changes.
Thank you for the content. This is an old post. Let's pretend I disagree with your conclusions, it doesn't matter. We are all just trying to learn. I am happy to read the comments and learn from the expertise of others. I come from an electrical engineering background and still am willing to entertain many things I would be surprised. Currently I am trying to determine when it makes sense to change pickups. I need very compelling reasons because I have so many tone shaping tools. In your experiment I determined three things. One, if I were playing alone, I like the fatter sound. Two, if I were looking for a guitar to sit in a mix the best, I would prefer the tighter tone with less bass frequencies. Three, without knowing the actual values of the caps, I don't think I can write it off to different construction and materials. I would need to do a lab experiment to make any conclusive determinations. Also, I would add to the experiment, tone shaping. What I mean, knowing in this case both caps had a different tone, attempting to match the guitar tone with each of the caps to match the tone of the other. So, the stock cap plus extra bass eq compared to the PIO with a little bass rolled off. In other words, could I prove that even if the caps were identical in values/ratings, with little adjustments, I can get the same tone. Most of the time we are splitting hairs and ignoring the most obvious boost to great guitar tone, the thing many guitarists skip while tone chasing, the performance of the player. So much time spent tone chasing with less time spent, writing songs and practicing.
"Paper-in-oil or snake-oil?" the title I'd chose :P
Damn… I missed that opportunity 😂🤦♂️
@@KrisBarocsi Nah, "snake oil" is Chappers' registered trademark, ehehehe
There is clearly a difference.
However, a problem arises when using the concept of "better." Preferences should be left up to the subjective whims of individuals, rather than crystalized in edict touted as objective "truth." Thank you for this well-balanced demonstration!
Agreed! I tried to avoid using the word "better" in the video, for that exact reason. Both great, just different. Cheers
Now put both those caps on a meter and measure the actual capacitance and the ESR value at the same temperature, then do the same but warm them with a hairdryer and measure the ESR. I think you will find that the values drift more due to temperature based on the material the cap is made of. And when the values drift, so does your tone.
PIO definitely sounded better to me! Would it be a practical conversion though? For a studio use only guitar I would say yes, on stage they probably would not hear the difference most likely and doubt would be as sturdy. Split decision here.
I think you don’t have to worry about durability of the paper and oil caps. There’s 59 Les Pauls with them in still going strong after 60+ years not to mention countless strats and telecasters. What I do know is they tend drift upwards in values as they age that could be considered the character of these caps whilst Orange drops will reman more close to tolerance over time.
5:10 - 5:25 .... There is two nice dry solder joints that will have at best a poor connection.
Interesting experiment...now do that same testing with tube amps and ss amps...using paper in oil capacitors, using a scope
The last mass produced paper in oil capacitors are far beyond "Best before", even NOS. And, Paper oil usually has huge tolerances in production, without tolerance markings, test says nothing. Usually for Paper Oil is +/-20%. Codes for old "bumblebee", color of 4th ring: green 5%, White 10%, black 20%, orange 30%, yellow 40%. If you buy those, if 4th ring is not green, you are even more ripped off. More modern color coded capacitors use different colors. Paper Oil degrades much more over time than modern materials. Modern materials produce much tighter tolerances. And if you really want PIO, check the market. PIO is available at $1 a piece (i.e. tubestore).
As 5% was "best you can buy" for Paper Oil", that's standard for even the cheapest (Orange Drop Style) capacitors today. Tolerance classes today go from B ( 0,1 % ) to M ( 20 % ) - J (5%) ist just the 3rd worst tolerance you can buy. A 5% tolerance cap ( 220 ) can be anywhere between 210 ans 230 ... and this makes a tonal difference.
Regarding to a shop, where Vitamin T is to buy, this is 10% class ... so anywhere between 200 and 240 ...
Nerdy indeed. But some of us are quite twisted enough to actually want to hear that. No wonder Bonamassa has his Nerdville museum. Thanks, man.
Didn't hear a noticeable difference besides the paper oil cap being slightly brighter, thanks for the benchmark though. Nah listened again with better headphones and it does change the tone
for me i i like the paper & oil sounds expensive to me in my own opinion
i want to try it on my LP guitar
My guess is every person posting on guitar forums that PIO caps are "no different" than film or ceramic caps have never ever played a guitar with PIO caps in it. I have personally put them in two guitars and they made them sound wildly different. I put the old soviet PIO caps you see advertised on Ebay into a Les Paul with Gibson 490r / 500t pickups and it gave the guitar seemingly endless sustain and a "throatier" tone..Think of the Seymour Duncan APH2 tone on steriods. I also put Vitamin Q PIOs in another with 57 CLassics. This didn't change the tone as drastically but OMG it made it so much sweeter. Counternote, when I changed the 500T pickup in the first guiatr to a Dimarzio super distortion, it sounded horrificly bad with the PIO cap and I had to change it to the original Gibson stock. So yes PIO caps do infact change the tone, sustain and other charcteristics. The change can be quite drastic. As to if it's "better", that is a subjective opinion and different people will have different views. But IGNORE anyoine who says "they don;t change the tone". That is a lie.
Right away, you give a error in your method by installing different caps in different guitars that are, by their very nature, not identical. There are too many inherent variables in pickups & pots...as well as setup, etc, even from two supposedly identical guitars from the same manufacturer, to attribute the tonal differences strictly to the capacitors.
To prove you point, you would have to change the cap(s) in the same exact instrument, and analyze the output with accurate test equipment. Our hearing is far too subjective to be trusted outright.
@@olenfersoi8887 People who can't spell and have no ability to use grammer should not be telling others about their crackpot theories they can not back up with evidence. You are dismissed.
I didn't notice any difference. The difference if any is barely perceptible. I put oil and paper caps in a few of my guitars years ago and at first thought that it sounded a little warmer but I reverted back to my beloved orange drops. So much of tone chasing is cork sniffing. After 40 years of chasing tone, I am still using Les Paul or Strat through a Marshall.