Love Suzanne Collins' take on the love triangle because Katniss wasn't just choosing between boys she's choosing between settling on a domestic life placating power in exchange for peace or rebellion and justice (in catching fire). And then in mockingjay it became choosing between healing from trauma or a pursuit of vengeance.
not that far into the video yet but def got me thinking abt the romantasy genre and how similar everything popular from there is these days… like it is 90% “enemies to lovers” (not even enemies most of the time, more like mutual dislike) and the main girl is always a 20-something (and white, maybe ethnically ambiguous if the author is feeling daring and wants the male love interest to relate her skin and hair colors to food) who is suddenly especially good at magic or fighting or whatever and it’s like 😭 cant we do something a liiiittle different? i know that’s the trend in the genre atm but seriously it’s Exhausting and getting to the point where i can’t tell anything apart from summaries
the description you just gave is reminding me of so many books I can't even count. everything is like each other, no one has originality or effort anymore
My insight as a writer: there’s this marketing tactic on social media with like the pic of the cover, surrounded by arrows with all the tropes. I feel insecure about my book because I didn’t write it with tropes in mind, so it doesn’t clearly fit into them, or into the popular ones. So now I’m like, will people even be interested if I can’t give them tropes within seconds? Lol!! I just have to…. Make them up I guess 😂 found family is one yaayyy 🎉😂
@@asmrglow if it makes you feel better, as a reader, not spoonfeeding me tropes actually makes me want to read a book all the more 😁 Let me work out for myself what tropes the author has used and deconstructed or put a unique spin on, because at least then the story flows naturally instead of trying to fit the constraints of a handful of tropes.
Tropes makes sense in fan fiction. You already know the characters and they’re usually a short snippets rather than full fleshed stories. This is why so many modern “romantasies” lack depth, they write with tropes in mind rather than focusing on the plot first AND THEN figure out the tropes
I tend to avoid samey books by sticking to diverse books and avoiding tropes. People say having high ratings is suspicious, but my ratings are mostly 4-5 stars coz I curated my reading (and I've been super lucky this year, hope that continues). We can pressure publishers to publish more diversely and creatively, but we also need to put our money into books we want to see more of. Kinda hard to change publishing, coz it follows the money, but I feel like we're pilots of our own reading journey. We can avoid those samey books and pick up different titles (I say that as someone who avoids nonfiction😂 but maybe I should expand).
Here’s my fear: romantasy was created and popularized by people who read deep, meaningful stories (e.g., The Hunger Games) and only wanted to pay attention to the romance bits. I hope we get to see more genre-blending where the things that are being blended still keep what makes them special.
WE NEED MORE POLY REP. There are so few good books with poly relationships I crey. Which is so sad because with poly there are so many possible configurations that could be explored. Maybe person A is in a relationship with both B and C. Or maybe they're all with each other. Or that but person C also has another girlfrienf. Whatever there's so many possible configurations unexplored in published fiction.
I don't think the problem with damsel in distress is that women get saved. In SoC that you mentioned Inej gets rescued not once but twice. It works because she's a badass character in her own right and does a lot of rescuing herself. Saving a lady becomes a problem when said lady is there solely to be saved by the protagonist and has no personality beyond that.
Early into the video, might edit later. I don't hate tropes, but when the trope is the only thing your book has, that begins to bother me. Not to mention you don't even make a good use of that trope. Ugh my biggest pet peeve. Like if you are gonna use a trope, USE IT GOD DAMN IT. Use it to your advanatage, don't make it the only thing that will sell your book. Take that trope and out your spin on it. The reason so many people still read the choosen one stories is because they all have a different story, reasons why something is happening. It's not the same cookie-cut characters with same looks and personalities. And cat-finishing (or trope-fishing?) It's when people use a trope to advertise the book but then you get something completely different. LIKE CAN WE STOP THAT?? If you sell me a book with enemies to lovers, I want them to try and kill each other. I want them to be on the opposing sides, I want them to hate each other. I don't want none of that The publisher and the book are trying to hammer it into your head how much they hate each other but then the first thought that comes to FL's head when she sees him is "Oh he's so fucking hot I want to screw him, but oh No he is the enemy, but he is so hot tho". Like I don't want that instant love and horniness, I want sexual tension while they try to kill each other. Publishers and writers need to understand why enemies to lovers is so hot. It's because they are taking each other seriously. They see each other as equals and and equal threat. The ML isn't seeing FL as a damsel in distress or "Kitten." And love triangles. They aren't a triangles if the dudes don't go for each other as well. Then it's just an intersection with FL having to choose. And more often than not the second choice is not even a choice. They have so little chemistry that right of the bat you know she will end up with the first guy.
This is my first time watching your channel and I agree with SO much you said! Trope subversion is in itself my favorite thing, though I have standard tropes I like too. I HATE love triangles (more like angles), I'm either like 'NO one get together and stay friends' or 'form a triad and get over it'. Found family is wonderful but sometimes people in fandom force a mom or dad role on characters that are the same age or only a little older than the other characters and it's weird. I look forward to watching more of your videos!!
To me, this is only a problem if readers are only reading mainstream traditional publishing books. Because indie, self-pub and the lesser known trad books are giving the creative, inventive stories that people say they want; they’re just not marketed as much.
@@andiman44 it happens in both, unfortunately. I've dipped into a lot of indie/self-pub books that have the same problems, if not worse, because they hope following the same trends will help them gain traction. It's a vicious cycle
@@emackenzie I don’t disagree. I just think that overall, indie and self-pub is where you’ll see more out the box ideas and stories cause traditional publishing won’t touch them; there’s usually more actual diversity too. But trend hopping is definitely still an issue.
Marketing is everything and I don't even really blame people. How is anyone supposed to find out about the next great classic if they don't even know where to find it? Meanwhile look at Jenna Morecci. I mean her books are not trash, but I'm convinced 100% they're only as popular as they are because she puts so much work into marketing her own books.
So, I'm in the midst of a bachelor of arts in writing and publishing and the industry honestly feels like it's become such a shit show. If you want to traditionally publish a novel, you have to market it to an agent or publisher by providing "comp titles" - meaning that you have to say "my book is like ACOTAR mixed with Hunger Games" or "Fourth Wing meets Red Queen" for them to even glance your way. They want you to have recognizable tropes in your novel because it's all a numbers game to them. It's not about talent or story, it's about the money, and if you can prove that your novel follows the conventions that have already been proven to be marketable and popular, only then will they consider you a worthy investment. As an aspiring author, it feels so degrading to have to narrow my own novel pitch down to "it's like [insert popular series here]" just to get looked at. But I can pretty confidently say that the reason everything feels the same is the same reason movies are feeling the same now, because no one wants to take a risk, they just want more of what's already proven to make a profit. It's even started trickling down to Self-Publishing, because if an author is aiming to be picked up after publication, they feel like they have to follow the trends just to get the attention of a publishing house. tldr; it's capitalism, sorry
I’m in the same boat as you! It’s so disheartening as a writer when all I want to to just write and share MY stories. Not copy things from other authors just to be even considered!
I can't stand the trope where the love interest does something that the MC absolutely doesn't want to 'protect them' because it's usually something that doesn't even protect them + just makes the LI seem controlling. (I can think of 1 example where it worked and that was only because it was a minor action in an extreme situation.
I love anthologies that say play with tropes. Either all the authors get the same very general trope to play with or tropes they must subvert. There’s a pin I got with romance tropes on the spines of a book stack. I want that design but with tropes that I love.
Hi, I cancelled my fairyloot subscription few years back as most books felt the same, not only trope wise but writing as well. They literally could have been written all by the same author I couldn’t distinguish them really.
I think this is what happens when you go for trendy books. Books that go on trending do so because the majority loves it. That's not always a good thing. That often means that they went "safe", that they followed tropes that has gone on trending often. That's why personally, I look for books / series where they have a small community, but a damn strong one, one where people either hate it, or the love it to death. If I hate it, I'll probably know pretty quickly. If not, I might have found a new book / series that I want to protect with my soul.
Damsel in distress is a very common trope in fairy tales: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel, Little Red Riding Hood, and Snow White, to name a few. Simply because we have lots of retellings doesn't stop that from being true. So maybe rethink your statement about who knows little about what.
Yeah, my point exactly. You know nothing about fairy tales. The original tales of these stories were not damsel in distress stories even if VARIANTS of them became such. And for every example given I can list you 20 that are not and still feature female protagonists. But thank you for doubling down and confirming my assumption. :)
@twilightguardian lol, are you well? The 'original' stories you've worked yourself up about are what fairytales originated from: folklore. These were called 'folk' tales. Fairytales came to be because they wanted to make the stories child friendly, which is why one of the defining characteristics of a 'fairy' tale is the happy ending. The originals are not normally seen as fairytales because they were all gore and tragic and lacking the happy ending. So, really, go somewhere else with your outrage cause I said what I said. Also, just because there are a lot of stories with female heroines that aren't damsels does not change the fact that there are a lot with damsels, which is why it is known as a common trope.
One trope I will hate until the day I die is the "born sexy yesterday" trope and a ton of romantasy books are guilty of it. It's when the fmc is put in an unfamiliar situation they aren't prepared for so she's fully dependent on the "nice guy" and eventually, falls in love with him.
Speaking of tropes...I don't know how people are going to do when Dune Messiah comes out cause it flips the heroes journey on its head and it's more political intrigue than anything...the director(can't think of his name right now) might have to play up seeing the actual battles
Fortunately this is highly common in romantasy… to be more specific: tropes are present for thousands of years. But how you execute it? The too badly written… now that’s not hard sci-fi or epic fantasy, etc. chosen one … yeah… until the character is a 150m small girl Mary sue… etc… And then there is Malazan taking the tropes dropping them out starting with : there is no main character… 😁 Dystopian: Parable of the Sower. Here you go. Octavia Butler. Earthseed is a real religion inspired by the science fiction of Octavia Butler, specifically her books, Parable of the Sower (1993) and Parable of the Talents (1998)
The thing is most "Love Triangles" isn't a Love Triangle it's a Love Arrow. A TRIANGLE IS CONNECTED ON ALL SIDE SO THAT MEANS THE 2 MALE LEAD SHOULD FALL IN LOVE TOO! A LOVE TRIANGLE IS A 3 PERSON POLY GROUP. I love Love Triangles but it's so frustrating to be reading and find it's actually a Love Arrow but was promoted at a love Triangle. If all 3 people don't all fall for each other and become a poly group it's not a love Triangle it's a Love Arrow.
Love Suzanne Collins' take on the love triangle because Katniss wasn't just choosing between boys she's choosing between settling on a domestic life placating power in exchange for peace or rebellion and justice (in catching fire).
And then in mockingjay it became choosing between healing from trauma or a pursuit of vengeance.
not that far into the video yet but def got me thinking abt the romantasy genre and how similar everything popular from there is these days… like it is 90% “enemies to lovers” (not even enemies most of the time, more like mutual dislike) and the main girl is always a 20-something (and white, maybe ethnically ambiguous if the author is feeling daring and wants the male love interest to relate her skin and hair colors to food) who is suddenly especially good at magic or fighting or whatever and it’s like 😭 cant we do something a liiiittle different? i know that’s the trend in the genre atm but seriously it’s Exhausting and getting to the point where i can’t tell anything apart from summaries
I definitely agree. A lot of fantasy romance in the new age plays the same trope over & over again.
the description you just gave is reminding me of so many books I can't even count. everything is like each other, no one has originality or effort anymore
Right?? It’s so annoying!
It's giving the isekai genre in anime. Stories and tropes near identical, right down to the mc's generic appearance😭
My insight as a writer: there’s this marketing tactic on social media with like the pic of the cover, surrounded by arrows with all the tropes. I feel insecure about my book because I didn’t write it with tropes in mind, so it doesn’t clearly fit into them, or into the popular ones. So now I’m like, will people even be interested if I can’t give them tropes within seconds? Lol!! I just have to…. Make them up I guess 😂 found family is one yaayyy 🎉😂
@@asmrglow as a writer, I'm struggling with that as well😭😭 the only trope I know I have is a slow burn
@asmrglow same. I don't write with tropes in mind. I see the story and write. I feel like that disrupts the storytelling.
@@asmrglow if it makes you feel better, as a reader, not spoonfeeding me tropes actually makes me want to read a book all the more 😁 Let me work out for myself what tropes the author has used and deconstructed or put a unique spin on, because at least then the story flows naturally instead of trying to fit the constraints of a handful of tropes.
Tropes makes sense in fan fiction. You already know the characters and they’re usually a short snippets rather than full fleshed stories. This is why so many modern “romantasies” lack depth, they write with tropes in mind rather than focusing on the plot first AND THEN figure out the tropes
Just write your book! If it’s a good story it will always have readers tropes or not. 😊
I tend to avoid samey books by sticking to diverse books and avoiding tropes. People say having high ratings is suspicious, but my ratings are mostly 4-5 stars coz I curated my reading (and I've been super lucky this year, hope that continues).
We can pressure publishers to publish more diversely and creatively, but we also need to put our money into books we want to see more of. Kinda hard to change publishing, coz it follows the money, but I feel like we're pilots of our own reading journey. We can avoid those samey books and pick up different titles (I say that as someone who avoids nonfiction😂 but maybe I should expand).
Here’s my fear: romantasy was created and popularized by people who read deep, meaningful stories (e.g., The Hunger Games) and only wanted to pay attention to the romance bits.
I hope we get to see more genre-blending where the things that are being blended still keep what makes them special.
The only way in which I'll accept a love triangle is if it's poly and I get a thruple
WE NEED MORE POLY REP. There are so few good books with poly relationships I crey. Which is so sad because with poly there are so many possible configurations that could be explored. Maybe person A is in a relationship with both B and C. Or maybe they're all with each other. Or that but person C also has another girlfrienf. Whatever there's so many possible configurations unexplored in published fiction.
I don't think the problem with damsel in distress is that women get saved. In SoC that you mentioned Inej gets rescued not once but twice. It works because she's a badass character in her own right and does a lot of rescuing herself. Saving a lady becomes a problem when said lady is there solely to be saved by the protagonist and has no personality beyond that.
Early into the video, might edit later.
I don't hate tropes, but when the trope is the only thing your book has, that begins to bother me.
Not to mention you don't even make a good use of that trope. Ugh my biggest pet peeve. Like if you are gonna use a trope, USE IT GOD DAMN IT. Use it to your advanatage, don't make it the only thing that will sell your book.
Take that trope and out your spin on it. The reason so many people still read the choosen one stories is because they all have a different story, reasons why something is happening. It's not the same cookie-cut characters with same looks and personalities.
And cat-finishing (or trope-fishing?)
It's when people use a trope to advertise the book but then you get something completely different.
LIKE CAN WE STOP THAT?? If you sell me a book with enemies to lovers, I want them to try and kill each other. I want them to be on the opposing sides, I want them to hate each other. I don't want none of that
The publisher and the book are trying to hammer it into your head how much they hate each other but then the first thought that comes to FL's head when she sees him is "Oh he's so fucking hot I want to screw him, but oh No he is the enemy, but he is so hot tho".
Like I don't want that instant love and horniness, I want sexual tension while they try to kill each other. Publishers and writers need to understand why enemies to lovers is so hot. It's because they are taking each other seriously. They see each other as equals and and equal threat. The ML isn't seeing FL as a damsel in distress or "Kitten."
And love triangles. They aren't a triangles if the dudes don't go for each other as well. Then it's just an intersection with FL having to choose. And more often than not the second choice is not even a choice. They have so little chemistry that right of the bat you know she will end up with the first guy.
This is my first time watching your channel and I agree with SO much you said! Trope subversion is in itself my favorite thing, though I have standard tropes I like too. I HATE love triangles (more like angles), I'm either like 'NO one get together and stay friends' or 'form a triad and get over it'. Found family is wonderful but sometimes people in fandom force a mom or dad role on characters that are the same age or only a little older than the other characters and it's weird. I look forward to watching more of your videos!!
To me, this is only a problem if readers are only reading mainstream traditional publishing books. Because indie, self-pub and the lesser known trad books are giving the creative, inventive stories that people say they want; they’re just not marketed as much.
@@andiman44 it happens in both, unfortunately. I've dipped into a lot of indie/self-pub books that have the same problems, if not worse, because they hope following the same trends will help them gain traction. It's a vicious cycle
@@emackenzie I don’t disagree. I just think that overall, indie and self-pub is where you’ll see more out the box ideas and stories cause traditional publishing won’t touch them; there’s usually more actual diversity too. But trend hopping is definitely still an issue.
Marketing is everything and I don't even really blame people. How is anyone supposed to find out about the next great classic if they don't even know where to find it?
Meanwhile look at Jenna Morecci. I mean her books are not trash, but I'm convinced 100% they're only as popular as they are because she puts so much work into marketing her own books.
The problem I have with the damsel in distress is it is always a boy/ man who has to save them giving boys a stereo type.
@@markreadsbo and they arent even grateful after getting rescued
ooooh noooo women having fantasies of being saved. call scooby to figure out this great dilemma.
So, I'm in the midst of a bachelor of arts in writing and publishing and the industry honestly feels like it's become such a shit show. If you want to traditionally publish a novel, you have to market it to an agent or publisher by providing "comp titles" - meaning that you have to say "my book is like ACOTAR mixed with Hunger Games" or "Fourth Wing meets Red Queen" for them to even glance your way. They want you to have recognizable tropes in your novel because it's all a numbers game to them. It's not about talent or story, it's about the money, and if you can prove that your novel follows the conventions that have already been proven to be marketable and popular, only then will they consider you a worthy investment. As an aspiring author, it feels so degrading to have to narrow my own novel pitch down to "it's like [insert popular series here]" just to get looked at. But I can pretty confidently say that the reason everything feels the same is the same reason movies are feeling the same now, because no one wants to take a risk, they just want more of what's already proven to make a profit. It's even started trickling down to Self-Publishing, because if an author is aiming to be picked up after publication, they feel like they have to follow the trends just to get the attention of a publishing house.
tldr; it's capitalism, sorry
Thats why i read lit fic now
I’m in the same boat as you! It’s so disheartening as a writer when all I want to to just write and share MY stories. Not copy things from other authors just to be even considered!
I can't stand the trope where the love interest does something that the MC absolutely doesn't want to 'protect them' because it's usually something that doesn't even protect them + just makes the LI seem controlling.
(I can think of 1 example where it worked and that was only because it was a minor action in an extreme situation.
Yea I've seen the overprotective trope before as well and just sigh
I hate love triangles too!! Friends to lovers, arranged marriage and marriage of convenience are my favorites
I love anthologies that say play with tropes. Either all the authors get the same very general trope to play with or tropes they must subvert.
There’s a pin I got with romance tropes on the spines of a book stack. I want that design but with tropes that I love.
Ooooo that pin sounds cool. I'm also a Pinterest babe
i think that is why I am so picky on the fantasy books that I will read
Hi, I cancelled my fairyloot subscription few years back as most books felt the same, not only trope wise but writing as well. They literally could have been written all by the same author I couldn’t distinguish them really.
I think this is what happens when you go for trendy books.
Books that go on trending do so because the majority loves it. That's not always a good thing. That often means that they went "safe", that they followed tropes that has gone on trending often. That's why personally, I look for books / series where they have a small community, but a damn strong one, one where people either hate it, or the love it to death. If I hate it, I'll probably know pretty quickly. If not, I might have found a new book / series that I want to protect with my soul.
Ooh! This video gives me an idea for a project for my high school literature class. Thanks for the discussion!
Tell me you know very little about fairy tales without telling me you know very little about fairy tales:
“Damsel in distress”
Damsel in distress is a very common trope in fairy tales: Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel, Little Red Riding Hood, and Snow White, to name a few.
Simply because we have lots of retellings doesn't stop that from being true. So maybe rethink your statement about who knows little about what.
Yeah, my point exactly. You know nothing about fairy tales. The original tales of these stories were not damsel in distress stories even if VARIANTS of them became such. And for every example given I can list you 20 that are not and still feature female protagonists. But thank you for doubling down and confirming my assumption. :)
@twilightguardian lol, are you well? The 'original' stories you've worked yourself up about are what fairytales originated from: folklore. These were called 'folk' tales. Fairytales came to be because they wanted to make the stories child friendly, which is why one of the defining characteristics of a 'fairy' tale is the happy ending. The originals are not normally seen as fairytales because they were all gore and tragic and lacking the happy ending. So, really, go somewhere else with your outrage cause I said what I said. Also, just because there are a lot of stories with female heroines that aren't damsels does not change the fact that there are a lot with damsels, which is why it is known as a common trope.
@@twilightguardianhave your fingers cramped up hunny? Or are you googling what to reply
One trope I will hate until the day I die is the "born sexy yesterday" trope and a ton of romantasy books are guilty of it. It's when the fmc is put in an unfamiliar situation they aren't prepared for so she's fully dependent on the "nice guy" and eventually, falls in love with him.
There is nothing, and I do mean NOTHING, that will make me hate love triangles 😅
I'll never let bad execution poison the trope itself for me. I think it can be compelling when actually done well, but it's very easy to get it wrong
Speaking of tropes...I don't know how people are going to do when Dune Messiah comes out cause it flips the heroes journey on its head and it's more political intrigue than anything...the director(can't think of his name right now) might have to play up seeing the actual battles
I love a good political intrigue situation so I'll be excited! I do want to read all the books before the movies finish so I need to get a move on!
Fortunately this is highly common in romantasy… to be more specific: tropes are present for thousands of years. But how you execute it? The too badly written… now that’s not hard sci-fi or epic fantasy, etc.
chosen one … yeah… until the character is a 150m small girl Mary sue… etc…
And then there is Malazan taking the tropes dropping them out starting with : there is no main character… 😁
Dystopian: Parable of the Sower. Here you go. Octavia Butler.
Earthseed is a real religion inspired by the science fiction of Octavia Butler, specifically her books, Parable of the Sower (1993) and Parable of the Talents (1998)
The thing is most "Love Triangles" isn't a Love Triangle it's a Love Arrow.
A TRIANGLE IS CONNECTED ON ALL SIDE SO THAT MEANS THE 2 MALE LEAD SHOULD FALL IN LOVE TOO!
A LOVE TRIANGLE IS A 3 PERSON POLY GROUP.
I love Love Triangles but it's so frustrating to be reading and find it's actually a Love Arrow but was promoted at a love Triangle.
If all 3 people don't all fall for each other and become a poly group it's not a love Triangle it's a Love Arrow.
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