Biological Men in Women’s Sports | Purdue University
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- We discuss the claim, “Biological males should not compete in women’s sports.”
All of the participants felt there was something unfair about biological men competing against women. However, their agreement with the claim was not absolute. In this conversation, we hear various proposals on how to find a fair way for trans women to compete, from handicapping to incorporating weight categories to creating separate leagues.
This conversation was recorded with students and guests at Purdue University on April 16, 2022.
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Can’t get enough of these, I’m obsessed!! This process is incredibly cathartic to watch. It gives me hope that we can come together and have productive conversations. Thank you, Peter! This is an enormous service you’re providing for the future of human communities.
Thank you!
@@drpeterboghossian I’d work for you in an instant. I volunteer.
@@drpeterboghossian you’re the man, literally. Keep making the difference👍🏼
anthony magnabosco (if you've not already) has a whole back catalogue of amazing SE discussions if you need to binge.
@@drpeterboghossian competition knitting is totally a thing, FYI 😋🇬🇧🇺🇸👍
Love all your content, truly thanks ! 👍
I am amazed at how all of these young men made this such a complex question. The fact that they spent so much time trying to identify a "woman's sport" rather than addressing Biological men competing in Women's Sports is mind boggling.
Might have been a bit of a language barrier for some of them. There are people who think boys shouldn’t play “girly” sports (gymnastics, tumbling, cheerleading, and in America sometimes even soccer is considered feminine). I don’t think that’s a majority opinion, but it exists. So without a strong knowledge of what’s going on currently with women’s sports and trans ideology + not being a native english speaker, it may be confusing.
It was Peter that spent all that time Because he kept grilling them on that. It was clear what they meant even if there wasn’t an example. It was a waste of time for him to keep pushing them on it and discussing it. And I agree with Ponny, it may have been a Misinterpretation due to a language barrier
The original statement mentions “women’s sports”. They were not wrong to take it literally. It should have been …”compete against women”
@@ponny2948 Except that still doesn't deal with actual question. It talks around it. The specificity of "women's sports" is irrelevant.
@@andyfletcher3561 yes.
The question was not a complex one. I am dumbfounded at the mental gymnastics these people went through to complicate it.
🤣
Exactly, It is the post-modern curse, they think that to have a definite stance on anything is a blasphemy and that they should always avoid the strongly agree or strongly disagree at any cost, otherwise they can be seen as people who are not very open minded
@@radcyrus I think its valid to reserve the right to be wrong, not sure that is their justification though
Welcome to Engineering haha
@@thomaswright4489 That's funny but so right.
Loved the comment Peter made about no one complaining about women who transition to men playing in men's sports indicating it isn't about transphobia but rather fairness. Absolutely love that point because the proponents always revert to the accusation of transphobia when or if they aren't winning the debate. That pretty much shuts that who accusation down. Not to mention it's an accurate representation of what the issue people have really is.
Also women who indetifies as man competing in womens sports. Why are they there, and not on mens sports? No one questions that.
@@ivanlewis23 Do you have any examples of where a trans man is competing against women, there's plenty going the other direction but I've not heard of any examples your suggesting?
@@michaelparry2262 In most sports, there is no men's division, just general division and women's division. In general division, both women and men can play, but the standards of qualification are higher. For instance in 100 m run to qualify for “men's” division your time needs to be below 10.05 seconds, while female RECORD is 10.48second, therefore on practice the general division became men's division.
@@libertyprime1614 general division. Just like the Olympics thousands of years ago.
If men are freely allowed to compete in woman's sport, we go back to these times.
Effectively eliminating women's sports, only very few women will compete if any.
@@jakobali612 Yep, they will be stuck at the bottom.
I wish these were so much longer and far more of them. I watch these at work and they change the way I talk to people. I ask for more questions now and talk far less. I can't thank Peter and his team enough for putting these out.
I see what you did there. You crafty SE practitioner.
That Canadian Geometry line made me laugh out loud
Canadian geometry is different, though.
It's in metric 😉
@@ggggloveking9419 all the angles are in celsius?
I was an English instructor at a university for years and did a very similar exercise with my students when we got to the argumentative writing section of composition. Honestly, the best part about it was that they learned that disagreeing doesn't mean hatred or animosity. It was a chance to test their ideas and change their minds, or hone their own beliefs and perceptions. It was a space for inquiry and curiosity.
I just felt ALL of my students deserved a place where they could speak with as reduced a sense of judgement as was possible. It was incredible to see them think things through.
Keep that critical thinking coming, Peter!
That is just fine and dandy until some SJWs enter the discussion...then you see the hatred and animosity litterally taking a physical shape in the room... :DD
@@dimercamparini That's why classroom management is critical. A good number of my colleagues come from a purely academic place, where they have never had to enforce rules and boundaries. I come from a background of ranch work where rules and boundaries are critical to maintain fairness, order, and structure, which makes people feel safe. I was not afraid of my students. They were much less dangerous than an injured cow.
Everyone got equal speaking time and if someone went over their time, I gently but firmly reminded them that everyone in the classroom gets X number of minutes and that they were being selfish by taking more than their share. That worked in 99% of the cases, except one were I kicked him out of the classroom and docked his participation points until he decided to come and be a part of the community and not run roughshod over his classmates.
My colleagues were extremely uncomfortable with this method, but it is critical to maintain very fair and consistent rules so everyone from my quietest student in the back to my chronic hand-raiser in the front had a space to speak. My classes were consistently filled, so there's that, I suppose.
@@rskye11 I appreciate the effort...is good work...
Problem is that most of the time today those ppl that cause havoc in the classrooms not only are allowed to run rampart (and stomp on the less vocal or more shy), but they are also actively backed up by their professors, because they share the same ideology...and they think their duty is to try to spread that as much as possible instead of trying to promote a double-way conversation to maybe find some common ground or at least view different perspectives and ideas.
2:20
"I know nothing about sports with balls."
An avid badminton, crew, and skeet shooting fan.
Good for Purdue, so much more open to discussion than the West Coast videos.
Best panel yet. Actually woulda preferred had someone disagreed (for discourse purposes), but absolutely none of them seemed ideologically motivated, which was refreshing.
Purdue University is a great university and a voice of sanity in the increasingly insane world of academia
@@m.davidmccormick7062 I went to Purdue. Great school.
This thought exercise is so important, I hope more people can see it. Every time a video is uploaded I watch it as soon as possible.
Also I wanted to note that softball, rhythmic gymnastics, and artistic (synchronized) swimming are all considered to be womens sports.
I think an interesting question could be based on the hearings, especially when Rep Hawley clashed with the college professor.
@@DrDeuteron well I have nose rings so I can’t hold that against her 😆 but her tone and quick attacks I take issue with, she certainly isn’t creating critical thinkers if she can’t be one herself
It looked like a father teaching his daughter.
She was clueless
@@DrDeuteron I felt like many of the experts were like that. I know that the representatives can get heated but usually people testifying keep themselves respectful.
Softball exists in current day because few females seem to have desire or shown competitive skill at playing with the men. Synchronized swimming in many organizations allow men to compete.Rythmic gymnastics ...mmmm kinda like softball, but in reverse. Men haven't shown a desire or skill.
@@AbelRamirezII whatever the reason for them to exist doesnt matter, they still do as women sports, men can play but they are traditionally womens sport so I understand them saying they feel men can play womens sports but don’t feel like they should compete against women. I also think womens polo has a different set of rules, so though polo isn’t a womens sport womens polo is different then mens polo.
“Can I say this here?” That question just shows how much censoring exists on college campuses.
The only thing I dislike about this channel is not having more of these to watch.
They just don’t want to admit that they didn’t initially go to the “strongly disagree” line because this modern society subconsciously shames people for being firmly against trans women competing in women’s sports, that’s the real reason. They just made up the whole thing about not being sure if the moderator meant women’s only sport vs sports 😂
I would gladly stand on the strongly disagree line, I don’t care if everyone attacks me for it 🤷🏻♂️
Probably true - it's interesting that exercises like that can show those societal pressures, even if they're subtle. -PB Team
@@drpeterboghossian I would have sat on the "agree line" simply because (unless I misread it) the quote said sports and not *professional* sports.
So if you're playing a casual sport with your family, then of course you can do whatever you want; men and women competing together. It's just for fun.
Good discussions though.
@@drpeterboghossian I applaud you for doing these exercises! Definitely are a great eye opener
@M B 100% correct! They’re afraid of the TG cabal’s attacks!! Their weapon of choice is to slur the opposition with the “transphobic “ label. Since when are ad hominem attacks okay?? Not a fan of Hawley but see the defiant against truth, science and evidence Bridges play the attack game!!
Maybe although I think it's more likely to be a true explanation for someone who isn't a native English speaker.
Having conformity with categories is key to this entire issue. This is something we should really think about.
Also, the actual number of transgender?/transexual? athletes is miniscule.
If a person CHOOSES to hybridize their natural biology, should they then forfeit any right to engage in sports which respect categorical conformity?
Hint: The logical basis is effectively the same as our rules against performance enhancing drugs.
Is it really that difficult to just go to "STRONGLY AGREE", on this question? It seems there is a "fear factor" of standing against, biological male athletes, competing in STRENGTH SPORTS for female athletes!
I like these videos a lot but prefer it when Peter doesn't share his own opinions on the questions. Doing so makes it feel like he has an agenda other than encouraging rigorous thinking and open discourse.
Purdue University is a great university in a time where universities are becoming increasingly insane. Proud to be a Boilermaker!
I think what the guys were talking about with the women only sports were sports that only allowed women at the highest level of competition, such as Synchronized swimming and rhythmic gymnastics.
Keep pumping them out as long and as many as possible. These are fun
Thanks for watching!
We are a democracy!!! Just have the conversations and be open to all the perspectives! No one is right 100% of the time. Very nice to hear this professor promoting a free speech zone. Makes my heart feel good. I don't care if some students have a different position than me
That's the whole point of being in college, to ask questions, see other peoples point of view and maybe learn from past mistakes that society has made.
I definitely LOL’d at “Canadian Geometry”.
Wow, Purdue. Got my MS there 1984-1987. Love it.
Nice! MS there, 2014 for me.
Was the first guy thinking about something like synchronized swimming?
Peter - I really hope these exercises never end. This is the best application of philosophy and epistemology to a layperson crowd. To encourage non-philosophy students to think about cogency, induction and deduction for contemporary issues is truly a gift. Keep it up!
Amazing thought provoking conversations. This is what I image college should be. We have to be able to discuss these topics in a calm way to find common ground.
I love Peter's videos. These discussions make me realize how absurd U.S. univerisities are however. We need more brain power focused on civil and structural engineering, biochemistry, climatology, physics, quantum mechanics, etc, and we are focusing far too much energy on gender theory and gender pronouns. If an upcoming climate crisis, whether man made or not, is impending, we need way more people focusing their energy on creating solutions for that. If there is going to be world wide famine due to fertilizer and grain shortages, we need scientists to focus on that.
I feel the same way. And sometimes it feels like so many are trying to figure out what gender identity is to better someone's well-being, when there is only a very very small minority that is "suffering" with this problem that really isn't degrading their health. While we have a large number of people caught in drug addictions and suicides, and no one seems to care.
I don’t entirely agree on your premise that people can only really talk about either STEM or social issues. Purdue is a massive engineering university and is certainly pumping out engineers every year, but that doesn’t mean that those same engineers can’t have opinions on real social issues. Obviously things like climate change is a looming threat that should be taken more seriously, but we can do two things at the same time.
Thanks, Peter. Imagine, going to a University and doing the job of a teacher!:)
Just remember each bloke is taking away a WOMANS place. Think about it if your Daughter had lost a place taken by a MAN.
It should be clear. Men transition to women and dominate sports. Women transition to men and do not. If you cannot see the advantage then you are denying it or blind and putting athletes at risk as well as discouraging them from participating
Who are some examples of men who transitioned to women who were discovered to have done it just to dominate women's sports, or is that just a conspiracy theory on your part?
@@technoloverish weather the transition is done maliciously or not is not the point I was trying make, however you would have to be ignorant if you assumed that everyone had peoples best intentions in mind. Clearly a guy that wants to transition to a women and then mma fight them isn’t having their opponents best interests in mind……
@@technoloverish Lia Thomas comes to mind. That’s one example.
@@truthseekerredonly1987
And Brock Turner is one of several examples of men who are rapists. By that logic, would you say every man is a rapist? Also, has it been proven that Thomas transition just because she wanted to dominate women's sports, or are you just assuming that?
In a sane society this subject would be laughed out of sports.
I love your content sir, thanks for sharing them. You are one of the rare people who are actually concerned with thought processes rather than the thought itself. It's amazing, You're bringing back my juvenile love for philosophy.
Had this set to remind me, didn't receive a notification. Classic RUclips.
Notice how they all still hesitate and are timid with their positions...they are so condtioned to accept this that they are very hesitant to admit they don't agree with it. Absolutely sad.
Who is the woman making up people's minds for them? Not sure she was very useful at all
How could they be confused by this straight forward question?
Hey, You! Loud mouth woman - no leading the witness. No putting words in their mouths. No assuming you know what they think. Let Peter B lead them into their own thoughts. He's good at it.
An example of a "woman's sport" would be netball, which was created specifically for women to play. Men could play that sport theoretically but socially that tends not to happen.
It happened in Australia with an all boys team, won the competition to screams of outrage.
This is my new favorite RUclips channel.
I absolutely love this approach and Peter is clearly a master at it. I’m please keep them coming as much as possible.
P.s. I really like the digital graphics that you’ve added!
Aww. This one was so short! Keep them coming!
Thanks for watching!
"Canadian geometry" .... LOVE IT! ... yes. I'm a proud Canadian (veteran too).
LUCKY
I liked the conclusions, when Peter just started saying, "It's about what's *fair*," but most of this was just eight minutes of misunderstandings and confusion.
In Belgium and the Netherlands(origins) they play korfball. Its a bit like basket, but with all other rules. In this sport men and women compete together. Each team has 4 men and 4 women. Could this work in other teamsport ?
I'm a bit unhappy with this one. I thought Peter and the other host Lady interfered too much.
They were too suggestive with their comments. Peter normally refrains from doing this.
Captain here! Rhythmic gymnastic is an example for woman's only sport. *flies away*
Proud of my university today
Rythmic gymnastics and synchronized swimming are examples of sports where typically only women are allowed to compete.
Never thought about the handicap category. I've changed from Strongly agree to agree.
The interpretation of women's sports didn't make much sense to me either. Must have been lost in translation. I can't think if any sport for women only.
Synchronized swimming and rhythmic gymnastics.
People aren’t thinking about the differences that occur at the extremes of men and women
Assuming you might read this. PLEASE try to force people and pre-face that they don't have to speak at all times. The most interesting episodes are when polar opposites, or some discourse.
I always think Peter is going to say something sarcastic or snarky but without fail, he keeps his cool everytime! Not trying to catch people in gotchya situations just trying to ask questions and bring people together to compare ideas. Very cool
Field Hockey is a sport only played competitively by women.
The Question though should have been: biological men should not compete AGAINST women in women's sports.
I love this series! It is so refreshing to see this kind of discussion and an open forum to discuss and potentially be swayed by different perspectives. Keep it up Peter! Excellent work!
This type of discussion is exactly what America needs right now but is actively trying to be eliminated by some.
I just wish these were longer
I have yet to be convinced that sports were fair before trans inclusion issues or that fairness in sports is something I should care about. Never quite understand why this conversation doesn't start there.
Wow, so short! And where are the arrogant bullies calling everyone who disagrees with them a bigot and transphobe?
2:04 Field hockey, softball, rhythmic gymnastics, and artistic swimming
Womens lacrosse is a totally different game than what the men play also
According to a totally viable google search I'm sure... "Interestingly, there are three sports events; softball, rhythmic gymnastics, and artistic swimming that are exclusive to women athletes. In the history of the Olympics, only female athletes have taken part in these."
I'm sure feminists are working on making it for men too since they're looking for equality right?
@@J040PL7 Unsure friend. Just was looking into this man's statement that there were "women only sports" which Peter was asking in reply are there any even? Apparently yes, learned a thing.
Womens lacrosse is also a vastly different game from mens lacrosse, with different equipment, rules, field layout, etc.
Synchronised swimming came to my mind too. Checking it out, I learnt in the late 19th century, synchronised swimming was a male-only event. However, in the 20th century it became a women's sport, with men banned from many competitions. In the U.S., men were allowed to participate with women until 1941, when synchronised swimming became part of the Amateur Athletic Union. In 2015's World Aquatics Championships, men competed in synchronised swimming for the first time.
Re the Olympics, there are many sports not included. Cricket, squash, racquetball, several martial arts, and all the surface watersports (water skiing, wakeboarding, surfing) for example. Rugby Union has been in and out a few times. The Olympics is just one of many competitive events.
I came into comments to say this same statement.
Netball, Uneven Bars, Beam, Synchronized swimming, and let's not forget Jelly Wrestling.
This is so frustrating to watch, I feel sorry for Dr Boghossian
If only you could teach a person like Mr. Beast to do videos like this. So worthwhile. Thank you.
I think what the Black gentleman was saying was handicaps are given in golf but not typically in other sports. Giving handicaps in other sports would make things very complicated.
Sports are separated into male and female by bodies not personality, identity, desire, presentation, or thinking.
While I very much enjoy your work, it’s both ridicolous and sad that we’ve arrived at a place where we have to specify “biological” males, implying «unbiological» or any other kind of male have ever existed in human history.
I would encourage you to consider removing the word «biological» from the question/claim, but I understand that this could possibly hault the thought exercise further for those not agreeing with the very definition of what a man is.
Thanks, and keep it coming!
Why is the lady holding the mike telling the host what the students are saying? Why are they not able to answer for themselves?
Not too long ago there was a boy who came from Ireland to the US. He played field hockey but there were no boys field hockey leagues so he joined a girls team. There was outrage. A similar thing happened to boys trying to join a swim team. They had to join girls teams.
yeah there’s a big big difference between mens field hockey and womens field hockey
@@loverlypie the details of the story is that the boy (13) was 4 foot 8 and 82 pounds. And to quote the first line from an AP article, "He's too good, and that's too bad."
No. Period. Create another classification.
“We want your opinion, but we’re holding the mic”
The problem with this gender debate is that Gender Identity is confused with Gender.
It semantics, but extremely important
I think the confusion was a cultural barrier.
I think the confusion with women’s sports vs women’s division of sports means…softball is traditionally a woman’s sport but men can play softball as long as it’s against other men. Women’s division would be like soccer where you have the same game but it’s played in different divisions.
These are great to watch, but I was a bit frustrating, the semantic confusion about "women's sports." All need to be clarified was, "Should biological men compete in female divisions of sports?" Then there's no "option C" way out of it.
Right, also how have non of these people not heard of soft ball?
field hockey would be the perfect example of a woman's sport.
In the US maybe but not elsewhere. I went to school (boys') in the UK where field hockey was played during the winter when we were not playing cricket.
Why is the mic lady getting involved?
Hopefully this idea of dialogue will start to catch on with society.
Things like this give me hope...
Why is that attention seeking lady interfering? Is she a mind reader... That experiment was interrupted by her several times. Plus... There are female sports.... Roller derby, much of cheer and dance is female, special categorizing in gymnastics, sync swimming, equestrian is quickly becoming female. Lacrosse, is a formerly strictly female sport... So, these people are just lazy! Why are there no female chess champions?
Good thing Mr Boghossian participates in the game.
I wish the microphone lady would have just held the microphone instead of trying to speak for and over the students that were trying to articulate their thoughts. It also seemed like the group of female students sitting in the back had a lot to say, but didn't want to actually do the work of standing on a line and discussing their opinions.
That last point made sense but 6th graders are expected to compete with 8th graders. Usually exactly how that age division is broken down.
I don't understand how not one of them could think of sports that are woman's sports like field hockey or the different events in gymnastics or the difference with lacrosse or softball 😂
Truly amazing. Where is this guy from. He has never heard of softball?
The whole hang-up about the participants not knowing if Peter meant "a sport for women" and "the women's category of a sport" is absolutely baffling. The ones who thought he meant "a sport only for women" couldn't even come up with a sport that is only for women until someone shouted out "knitting".
I was thinking of something like cheerleading or synchronized swimming. But yeah, obviously the question is about all female divisions in all sports. That was kind of an over-complication, it’s easy to understand which of the 2 was the real question being asked
I can sense the “fear factor” here. They agree but too scared to articulate their positions.
Netball is an example of a sport that’s only played by girls in the U.K.
Balance beam, uneven bars, field hockey, softball are examples of “sports/events for women”.
Field hockey is a male dominated sport in warmer countries that don't play ice hockey.
Those first two are sports. They are events.
@@hkrause6565 it’s a woman’s sport in Canada, idk that
@@jamesbizs my comment says “events “
I never took a course on logic but I was able to figure it out and frame most of my arguments in a logical manner. Why can't these people?
When people offer the game of golf as a sport in which men and women might compete because of the handicap system it tells me they don't really understand the issue.
How do you insert a handicap system into physical contact sports like rugby or football or MMA?
Still can’t over the lady. What is a woman’s sport? If you can’t name one then it doesn’t resist right?
Who is the female with the microphone trying to put words in dude's mouth?
I see a lot of people say there should be separate leagues, but the problem is the interest in such leagues is minuscule at best. Who is going to watch these leagues, who is going to spend the money needed to maintain them, and how many people are even going to compete at the level required for a league? There's not enough demand to make it work financially. The end result of forcing it likely means the burden will fall on people who have no interest or stake in it at all.
If people who want to identify as women want to compete so badly, then compete with those whom you are fairly matched against based on biology. Do not impose your will on others and take their accomplishments away from them by cheating.
We still don't have an example of a sport that exists, is only ever played by women, and never played by men. To pretend that they don't know what is meant by 'women's sport' shows a level of disingenuousness worthy of any pilitician. They are afraid to give an answer. Very depressing!
I’ve got one: camogie. It’s a girls only sport played in Ireland. It is comparable to hurling, a mens only sport played with a hard leather ball and a big stick. There are slightly different rules for the womens game so it is definitely considered a womens exclusive sport.
Either way I agree with you - a distinction without a difference. Everyone in this clip is still against bio men in womens sports and/or womens divisions. They should be confident in their views.
I wish someone would ask me! 😁
A worthwhile consideration is that segregation of men's and women's sports is de facto discrimination, serving fairness.
The balance beam at the Olympic games is woman's sport. Can u imagine watching men do that?
The humanity
Ringette is a woman's sport. And lots of men's and women's sports are different even though they have the same name: hockey, lacrosse, gymnastics.
Strongly Agree. MEN competing in women's sports is CHEATING.
These exercises in his various videos have often demonstrated the fragility of language and the various personal definition and understanding of words and phrases.
It's a silly question. I can understand the confusion. "Sport" is too open. 8 ball, snooker, darts are sports. Should men compete against women? Sure, no advantage. On the other hand, swimming, track, fighting, weightlifting are also sports? No, men should not compete against women.
Not sure if it isnt mentioned in another comment - but i would like to suggest 'Cheerleading Competitions' as a woman only sport that could be opened up to male or trans teams without detriment to the female competitors. Or maybe this already happening?
Competitive cheerleading has been coed for a very long time with teams wanting a mixture of men and women for occupying the varying roles on the team.