Brent Watches - Divided Loyalties | Babylon 5 For the First Time 02x19 | Reaction Video
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- Join Brent as he does his first watch of the Babylon 5 Season 2 episode, "Divided Loyalties." In this one, Lyta Alexander returns to Babylon 5 to suss out a Manchurian Candidate. Ivanova and Talia move SUPERFAST into a relationship, meanwhile Sheridan and Delenn continue to be really cute together. So join Brent as he dives into his first watch of this episode.
And be sure to catch our main show, Babylon 5: For the First Time, when Brent is joined by Jeff to take a deep dive into the episode, searching for those Star Trek-like messages, and seeing if they should have watched it sooner. New Episodes drop on Mondays.
This show is produced in association with the Akin Collective, Mulberry Entertainment, and Framed Games. Find out how you can support the show and get great bonus content like access to notes, a Discord server, unedited reaction videos, and more: / babylon5first
Producers:
Follow us on Twitter: / babylonfirst
Website: www.babylon5fi...
All rights belong to the Prime Time Entertainment Network, WBTV, and TNT. No copyright infringement intended.
Copyright Disclaimer, Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for 'fair use' for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. Non-profit, educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
"This rewrites Ivanova's character..." I'd say it deepens her, it gives more meaning to her past behavior. Now we see that she wasn't just angry at the Psy Corps because of what they did to her mother, but also afraid of them because of what they might do to her if they were to scan her... and find out. (Note, on both counts, by the way, that Susan was always very careful to say she hated the Psy Corps, not telepaths.)
3:15: It is around October/November. Keep in mind that each season covers one year, starting with New Year and ending with New Year's Eve. And since you are almost through season 2, it must be around that time.
I'm most amused about how you and Jeff were both right and wrong about this episode all at the same time. ;)
Definitely the most right they have ever been
Fun fact, originally the traitor was supposed to be Takashima, the first officer in the pilot, she was the one who stopped Sinclair's elevator to make him miss the meeting with Kosh.
To add to that, Takashima was also meant to be the person who shot Garibaldi, or at least the artificial persona
@@ACIoanninahe's not put that part together from the reaction. Might not want to know for rewatching
@JC this has nothing to do with the rewatching because it's an alternate storyline
@@ACIoannina it's not the alt story, it's Brent not seeing a connection. And he didn't want to be told about connections he didn't see. For rewatching. The ending of your comment, not the original
@@jcmoore2013 Planned storylines and reveals that never happened because the character was dropped aren't spoilers. Takashima wasn't a traitor because the character was replaced by Ivanova and the storyline transferred to Talia. Before this episode it would have been a spoiler because it would have revealed there's a traitor, now it's not.
In Sheridan’s dream, Ivanova asks “do you know who I am?” and has a raven on her shoulder. The raven has often been associated with second sight, all the way back to Odin.
In Judeo Christian religion the dove (on Garibaldi) and the raven (on Ivanova) are associated with Noah and how both birds find land but the raven found land associated with the old ways (antediluvian), while the dove is associated with new ways. I am cribbing here, I'm sure there are more refined interpretations than mine. I do prefer your raven/second sight motive though, just not sure what that artificial dove on Garibaldi is.
@@ianstopher9111 Maybe war and peace. Can’t go wrong with those. There’s probably a mix of metaphors in the dream.
Wow its totally obvious now you mention it but all these years that one just slipped me by, 20 god damn years! How dense am I feeling right now.
This episode rips my heart out every time. 😭
Glad you liked this one Brent. its one of those episodes where you see the threads woven through many of the pervious episodes suddenly stand out and connections and inferences make sense.
I was yelling at the speaker last week with Jeff's prediction and Brent's addition. I love when you guys stumble on something.
Glad you got it done before Monday. Your effort to get it done as fast as possible is appreciated, as is the way you edit it together (done very well). In a few weeks, you will have earned a well deserved break, for a week, from editing videos! It's going to be a wild few weeks until then!
I’m so happy to see people watching this again. Childhood memory unlocked. I remember waiting for these episodes to come out and my dad and I would watch then
Another thing that occurs to me is that the idea of personality implants fits well in a universe that has things like the "death of personality" that was mentioned as a penalty more humane than death that was mentioned in a previous episode (Season 1, Ep. 21, 'The Quality of Mercy' -- in which Talia had to deal with a prisoner condemned to the death of personality).
One detail I always liked about Talia's and Susan's little romance is that no one in the show ever acts surprised. It's simply... a thing that happens, like all other relationships on B5. Kudos to JMS for making the first lesbian relationship in sci-fi be just a normal part of two characters' lives.
If they blinked, they might have missed it. There’s actually no indication that the other officers were aware. The whole thing lasted a few days and occurred under the guise of Talia needing a temporary place to sleep.
@@sdfried4877 It is true that there is no sign IN THIS EPISODE that the others knew about the romance, but frankly, from having been in similar places, I'd be surprised if they didn't (did you notice Garibaldi stopped pursuing Talia shortly after the "elevator" episode?). Also, I don't think it's a thing that started a few days ago -- the romance, for all we know, may have started shortly after they shared that first drink way back in Season 1. Maybe they weren't about to live together, but I don't think Talia was a stranger to Susan's quarters (she starts making jokes too quickly).
@@Asehpe No doubt, Talia pursued Susan FROM DAY ONE but winning her over took exceptionally long. We’ve been privy to the whole thing, to the extent that it exists, and even to us the escalation of the relationship beyond friendship only appears to have cryptically occurred during this single episode.
After the outcome of this episode, my impression is that Susan most likely told no one about this for some time due to her shame at being used. I can’t say more.
Fun to be the pedant and say DS9 did Rejoined (lesbian kiss... sort of... between two Trill women) literally only a couple weeks after this first aired in the US.
@@meropetied Mirror Universe Kira was played as bisexual as well.
Great reaction. I have been patiently waiting for this episode. I love your face to the reveals and surprises of the episode. I am anxious for Monday show to discuss Talia and Susan relationship, Susan reveals that she is a latent telepath,
And Lyta return.
Patricia Tallman has had small roles on TNG and DS9. She is also a stunt woman.
She did stunt work for Gates McFadden, Nana Visitor and Laura Seen (Jurassic Park).
Jeff: Lyta coming back would be awesome
Me: He's gonna blow a gasket
A Few Moments Later
Me: Yup
Now, after he's gotten through most of season 3:
"I wanna see Talia again, or at least mention her"
OH SHE GETS MENTIONED
At the beginning, "totally see where this one's going". At the end, "did not see it going that way... "
The thing that gets me is that the activation of the artificial personality will kill the host. They did a great dishonor in not getting the last will and testimony from folks before their scans, maybe let them have a call to their loved ones. I guess that's the point, this is war with the fate of billions on the line, what's one murder, but it certainly makes our heroes a little grey.
This was one of the last 4 episodes of Season 2 that had a World Premiere on Channel Four in the UK ...And what a shocker it was ...
I have to say, I had my doubts about these "Brent watches" postings at first. I mean really, who wants to watch someone watching a video! However they have become a much anticipated posting. It's like having a friend come into your home to watch one of your favorite shows and waiting for their reaction. I especially get a kick out of Brent jumping in his chair when he makes a discovery. Well done guys and thanks for all your efforts.
There’s a few other good reactors out there. Medusa Cascade is literally on S5 episode 21 so there’s a lot to watch.
@@sdfried4877 That must be on Patreon. General releases are in the middle of season 5. Many delays due to copyright issues as I am sure you already know.
@@robertdendooven7258 True. Sloppy reporting on my part. She is in the middle of Season 5.
@@sdfried4877 I am not on Patreon, so I have no Idea where she is at. I think she is done with season 5 though. It takes time to edit and re-edit when copyright issues come up in one of her videos. Two more episodes are scheduled for this week.
@@robertdendooven7258 She has done all but the finale. On RUclips, she just did A *redacted* of Telepaths.
Brent: "Oh my GOD"
Collective fan base MUHAHAHAHA
I love the way Lee folds the data crystal into Ranger Derek's hand like your grandma does giving you some money.
You’re going to ‘rewind’ it? That’s very 90s 😂
Straczynski said that in the future being gay or straight would be thought of like being right or left handed. No one would give a shit. So that's why there's no coy dodging or "will they won't they?" It's all down to Ivanova not trusting people period; that's why they never hooked up before. They gayness was so insignificant as to not be worthy of anybody mentioning, and that was damned progressive for today, let alone the 90s.
They had to let Talia go because Sheridan and co. are part of EarthGov and they have no legal power to hold her, especially if PsyCorps is demanding her return. Killing or detaining her would've caused more problems than it solved.
3:15 I seem to remember one of the fanzines at the end of season 5 wrote up a complete timeline of the show, with precise dates when known, so it would track that this episode takes place towards the tail end of the year.
i enjoy your logical deduction of what could be coming
You wanted to see me, Captain?
Yes, Zack. Thank you for coming.
That is all.
Because Zack was wearing a Nightwatch band he was not going to be told by Sheridan he was doing a good job. A divided loyalty.
Yes, this one leaves many questions, many which we might like to answer, but will have to stop ourselves from doing, just as we had to stop ourselves from revealing too much early on this season when some questions were brought up. But one thing about B5 is it does things you don't expect -- and yet , it does so in a way which makes you go "woah, that fits." Like what you learned about Susan.
I don't remember how far back it was - but at some point way back, you or Jeff predicted that Ivanova's reason for being so opposed to being scanned was because she was a telepath. So go ahead and chalk up a point for team First Time here cause you guys nailed it. In addition to some other obvious things you nailed for this episode in particular.
As a gay man, back in college in the 90's when we were just beginning to push the limits of being openly gay, this came out. It was the first time on the main TV channels we saw a homosexual relationship, albeit obliquely. It was so powerful at the time I can't even describe it...and then to have poor Talia murdered and that love ended in its infancy. So freaking tragic and moving.
I just noticed they set up that Garibaldi had a PPG before Talia grabbed it. It might even imply that he didn't properly secure it when he put it back.
maybe, but it's more likely a production thing they were hoping no one would notice. 🙂
Interesting. Your combined prediction about Talia and Lyta was right yet not right. . It was such a great prediction.
You seeing Lyta... that alone was worth the whole video. Yeah, I do believe you, it was the first time...
Not really rewriting Ivanova. I can't give you details (spoilers), but there has been hints here and there, but now it's out in the open.
I can't answer your questions without ... spoilers... but I agree, this is an excellent Talia episode.
Be seeing you!
Glad you enjoyed the episode, Brent! This really hits hard since at least in terms of the series, had some major changes to the core cast characters in terms of revelations and sheds some light on just how sinister the Psi Corps is with their sleeper program. The technology to implant a hidden personality that completely overrides the original and destroys it is truly frightening.
If you think that this episode was good, the next three will really kick things into high gear as you and Jeff finish off Season 2. This is where things kind of kick into high gear for a bit.
I am eagerly awaiting the full podcast where you and Jeff dissect the episode and see if there are other things that get picked up on that were either cut or not. Lots of things in this episode that are great during a re-watch!
I think there are a couple of really good eps coming up, but also one that is a bit controversial as far as the fan base, and is one of my least favorites.
Feeling great coming out of the shower...Remember early this season, only command staff had water showers. Maybe that was the real source of Talia's attraction.😄
"You only love me for my hot water!"
When Ivanova comes out to Sheridan, it's the classic coming out to your parents. Talk about triggering and emotional. Also the whole concept of the fake personality... being gay you have to fake a life that's not really your own, and when you come out it's like destroying that other person. The tribute JMS did for us and the barriers broken in this episode had lasting effects. Three cheers.
I like this episode. It isn't one of my favorites, but it certainly ranks up there, and is very memorable. Great insights Brent (won't say which ones) I also love that watching this show with you guys means I see things that "I" missed on all of my re-watches. I don't follow baseball, so I hadn't picked up on that detail as to when in the year it is.
But more I enjoyed your enjoyment of the show. I can't really comment on it more without spoilers so will stop here, I also will wait to comment on the upcoming episodes, some I await with baited breath, others... trepidation. Boy this sure is fun!
I've already seen the full version on Patreon, but am looking forward to what you leave in for this one.
This is exactly why I prefer reactors to edit their videos. You see what is important to them.
@@Matej_Sojka I appreciate the time and effort it takes to edit them properly. It is not easy
Thanks for watching and being with us on Patreon
@@brentallenlive As expected you missed out a "key" scene 😀
JMS gave each of the main cast members an optional 'out'; a way to write them out of the story if they left the show.
This storyline was Talia/Andrea Thompson's out, as she left B5 and moved to another show.
**No Spoiler**: This episode was released on 11 Oct. 1995. DS9's _Rejoined_ aired on 30 Oct of 95. These ep's were big news at the time, because of the lesbian romance aspects of both shows. Both networks had to be careful in how they played the shows, because no one knew how the audiences would react. It was the Kirk/Uhura kiss all over again. Personally, I think _Divided Loyalties_ is the more impactful of the two, because of the clear implication of "bed time". Both work, though.
Talia left and snagged a gig at NYPD Blue, so to speak. Lyta (Pat Tallman) was on maternity leave if I recall correctly. So when she came back she had slimmed down some, making her look younger. A little trivia, Pay Tallman was a stunt double for the likes of the Beverly Crusher character. She's also in the opening scene of Roadhouse in the bar. As for leftover stuff, Ironheart gave Talia a "gift" that made it possible for her to block scans even by psycops. They also said when the code is sent the original personality is destroyed. Nothing remains.
Now is the time for Jeff and Brent to praise streaming etcetera. When I was young watching B5 on PTEN on Saturday afternoons, this episode was pre-empted multiple times by the Knicks and Mets as I remember. It took over a year for me to find out what happened to Talia.
Babylon 5. Boldly going where no 90s SF had gone before.
FYI, Andrea Thompson wanted to leave the show to pursue other opportunities. B5 is one of the first ensemble cast productions and many actors do not like all the downtime between their character's arcs. She went on to being a CNN anchor and starring JAG among other shows. Tallman was busy being an actor and stuntwoman on ST properties and other SF shows.
that was part of it. the other part is that thompson was married to jerry doyle and they were breaking up at the time.
Great episode and it leads to some interesting things ;)
Nice catch on the implication of the timing thanks to the World Series. Not a big thing, but one of those little details that you can notice if you know the sport.
You are asking a lot of the same questions I asked way back when.
This episode was one I remember so much. Talia turning was something I did not saw coming. I was is this real? I love this episode and I love it even more when I rewatch it. And I can't wait till next week. One of my fave episodes is coming. S2 E 20...
This was my absolute 2nd favorite episode of this season... my favorite is yet to come .... gosh, I'm SO wanting to answer all of your questions.... DOES Talia leave the show? ARE she and Susan an item? But I WON'T . I WON'T I WON'T !!!! :D NO spoilers :D I'm glad you liked it :)
I guess the crown goes to Jeff... 🤣
Well Brent, we can answer your questions about this episode in what the Grey 17 Podcast calls the "Beyond The Rim" section. Sorry. LOL!
Lyta returns: once again, Brent is King of Predictions!
I don't know about Brent, but Jeff had been partially spoiled about Lyta's return by a youtube comment.
Now with this episode revealing that Talia is Control, it makes no sense at all that Control told Abel Horn to kill Talia in Spider in the Web.
Perhaps it was a way to throw everyone off the trail. No one would suspect that Talia's other personality would send Abel to kill herself.
The seasons run from early Jan to late Dec. So yeah, Oct is about right.
Just a reminder, Jeff suggested it was about Talia and PsiCorp first- Brent just ran with it
but he did go with it in a way which is still surprising
@@hornorsilk2901 True that
Brent said Lyta. Just throwing that out there.
@@brentallenlive Yes you did
Right. Brent can carry the crown but can’t really put it on his head from his own effort this time
Yeah Talia and Susan being a thing was definitely heavily implied here, and JMS made sure to write it in a way that it was no big deal.
❤️❤️❤️❤️Best Boy has appeared❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
Yes, JMS is very progressive and sent subtle signals that the Talia/Ivanova relationship began antagonistically.
Re: Kosh. "What drug or heaven are you in?". Great comment. I'll say no more on that.
As for Susan and Talia, absolutely there's meant to be a relationship there. Progressive as it was at the time (90s), I think it's a shame that it only happened just before the Talia reveal happened, so was never fully built up. It just all seemed a little rushed, and then it was over, but perhaps that was necessary for the plot. To take a metaphor from another medium, it's just another "brick in the wall" for Ivanova.
I believe you. You deserve your crown.
"It looks like it's going to be Ivanova but obviously it's going to wind up being somebody else" Good call. Regarding the Ivanova revelation "That's huge"... "This rewrites Ivanonva's character" -- Great comment. A nice reward for paying attention. My other comments about it are . As to why Lyta didn't just walk around the station sending the password she probably expected the revealed spy to attack her when unmasked and wanted to make sure that she had protection when sending the password.
Virtually Anything we would say about Talia and Lyta and Ivonova for that matter at this point would be a spoiler. Especially if one is going for what the general audience knew at the time of airing... Which was next to nothing...
But now at least I can say that your two's speculations about this episode were so close and so far at the same time that it's amazing.
Well, we can say that in the past, Ivanova had some really bed experiences with relationships to men. And now, her first relationship to a woman turned out to be a catastrophe as well.
Question about spoilers - when you're finally all done watching are you ok with us telling you things about plot threads and characters and why certain decisions were made along the way? Or is that the kind of thing you're hoping to discover with your own research?
IMO it depends if they do Babylon 5 for the Second Time, so they can start to see the bits they missed, like the Markab and mentions of Zha'ha'dum.
@@ianstopher9111 mild allusions to spoilery stuff in this comment so read at your own risk - I was thinking less about strictly story/lore related things and more about casting decisions and why certain changes were made due to circumstances behind the scenes. There are some interesting things going on behind the scenes with regards to this episode in particular that brought the thought to my mind, and Brett *definitely* picked up on some of the directions the story was *intended* to go but never actually did due to some complications behind the scenes.
Once we hit B5 for the second time, our inclination that all spoilers are allowed, but we reserve the right make a change once we actually get there.
(Spoiler for something *other* than Babylon 5)
This episode was written and filmed sometime in late 1994 or early 1995. Chuck Palahniuk's original novel of FIGHT CLUB was still being written around the time this episode premiered in the UK and US. I wonder if he saw this episode mentioning a second personality that could only come out at night when the main personality was asleep?
Oh, in episodes like this it is SO hard to not say anything that might constitute spoilers 😂
Mind if I drop a question for the end of season thing? SO you know that Knives was originally set in a different part of the season, rather than where it aired (which is where you watched it). Do you think it is better to have it there where it maybe breaks up a group of heavier episodes (In the shadow... Conf & Lam... This one)? or would you have preferred it where it was originally placed?
We have no opinion. The episodes come as they come. As we understand it, for the most part in the first couple of seasons anyway, episodes can kinda be shuffled around and it's not a big deal.
While it has all that Refa stuff in the A story, I do wonder if the original script was intended for Season 1, along with Eyes, Grail, Survivors, and Believers.
Without any spoilers, Ivanova is one of the earlier 'lesbian' character on TV and it's definitely what JMS wanted. They are subtle hints and vibes on a possible developing relationship with Talia even before this episode. I can't remember what tip me off personally but I remember this episode didn't surprise me, it just made me happy they finally overtly imply.
I would say more like Bi-sexual and not exclusively Lesbian.
What about background spoilers? Not about the characters, but the actor?
Sure
Andrea Thompson, who played Talia, went on to JAG, then NYPD blue, in more central roles.
This is no longer a spoiler now. Takeshima from the pilot episode was going to be the original sleeper agent but since she didn't return for the series, JMS switched it to Talia.
She would have shot Garibaldi in the back too. Would have been great.
Since Brent and Jeff keep wondering about whether XXX or YYY will come back, filling in some of Takeshima's plan does rob them of wondering if she will come back in the same way.
@@ianstopher9111 Good point. I actually had a lengthy response on a different subject and realized it could be a spoiler and deleted it all.
Man I loved your reaction about ivanova!
Your path is getting more into star fury territory!
Given that you don’t want spoilers for yourselves, you might want to change the thumbnail for this video as it does narrow the field of suspects for people who are coming to the episode cold.
Basically anything said about Ivanova. Lyta, and Talia at the point you asked would be spoilers. Some will be dealt with in this episode other?.... Well listen close to dialog.
They wanted to have them be a couple, but also didn't want to deal with the backlash... so this is the only place it is semi-out in the open
The Stargate reference made me laugh out loud (not for any spoilery reason.. I just love when you make connections like that)
The episodes just get better and better from here
some do, some don't. let's not hype the future :)
Originally Control was supposed to be Takashima.
yes, but changed once S1 began
Yeah, a number of things had to be shuffled around when cast members weren't available and had to be recast.
You might want to remove this as from this video he has not connected the two. Might give a clue in relation to re-watch
And originally, Lyta was intended to be the telepath in season 1, but Patricia Tallman had other commitments. So, Talia Winters was introduced. The Jason Ironheart gift was an explanation for her augmented telepathic abilities the Psi Corps didn't know of, to give her some mysterious background.
@@jcmoore2013 I don't think of this as something anyone would pick up on a watch so much as we know it because JMS said so.
Remember that Homeguard guy from season 1 who was Ivanova's on/off lover? Her love life really sucks, which is one of the things which made her quite a cynical person.
Never forget that JMS was the co-creator of Sense8, so you'll see some very progressive views be planted throughout his career.
Talia WAS "very dry" ... but that is how TELEPATHS "have to be", because they HAVE TO CONTROL THEIR ABILITIES and "keep them in check". That is what the Psi-Corps teaches them ... self-discipline. They have to be "detached from everyone" and the charming Talia in the beginning of this episode is kinda off.
You NEED PERMISSION to "enter someone else's mind" (or else society would be controlled by telepaths), which is why Lyta didnt "just do it". Even though she is on the run, she still obeys this rule.
The thing about Lyta's age might have been a hairstyle and lighting thing. She's filmed much differently in the pilot.
The hairstyle in the pilot definitely made her look older but she was around 37 in this episode anyhow.
Nevertheless, the character seems to have immaculate hair and makeup once she appears after med bay.
She's not the only one whose appearance looks different from the pilot. The prosthetics on G'Kar and Delenn were significantly altered.
@@lordpuki1375 All for the better, although G’Kar’s makeup continues to develop.
They were very much implying that it was the aftermath of the two women having sex.
No, think back to Talia's conversation with Sinclair about sex with telepaths...
You have no idea about Babylon 5. Once a question is asked- the answer given is not the one you expected- so then there is another question and it goes on and on.
As far as letting Talia go, they have nothing to hold her on. There is no proof she shot the security guards and she committed no other crimes. Even having her head messed with, it is a rogue telepath (Lyta) against a card carrying member of the PsiCorps (Talia). That would be like a drug addict accusing a law enforcement officer with a spotless record of being a mass murderer. As for the rest of your questions I can only say WAFO. Sorry, any other answer is a spoiler.
I've always thought that Talia and Susan where heading towards a relationship, but never fully got there. They shared a bed, yes, but sometimes people do. Sometimes my colleagues at work go places and stay over, and they share rooms and/or beds. None of them are together. I just am not sure Susan would trust Talia, since she is still part of Psycorp and you hear that intimacy between telepaths allows you into each others minds. I am sure it was going that way and JMS was definitely willing to have non-straight relationships. He couldn't probably push too much through due to the time, but there is a scene later which has people pretending to be together, and no-one cares. I won't give more details due to spoilers, but I guess he pushed that through as they aren't gay, just pretending.
I think they were an item, because of something I won't mention from a future episode. Still... I think the time that passed since we first heard of Susan's mother and now was supposed to be enough for her and Talia to slowly get closer -- ever since they shared that first drink. Susan does not trust Psy Corps, but B5 is so much about individuals being more than their work that I could see that as simply Susan learning the difference between Talia as a person and the Psy Corps as her employer.
@@Asehpe That thing you’re referring to does not have to imply they were an item.
@@sdfried4877 I agree, but I do think they just hadn't reached that stage, nothing is clear about their relationship
@@samanthagibson5791 And this was by design. Although Claudia happily announced in the Summer of 1995 that her character would be having a lesbian relationship in season 2, the powers that be clearly decided to minimize it.
"It sounds pretty Star Trekky to me!"
Not this era of Trek. Trek wouldn't feature its first canonically LGBT characters until *the mid-2010s,* because Rick Berman was terrified that adding a gay or bisexual character would lose viewers.
Edit: I'm happy to count Jadzia as bi and/or genderfluid, but they always wrote in plausible deniability there - she was attracted to her ex-wife because she remembers being a man attracted to her, and Dax's male host memories are driving their brief affair, and her changing gender is due to her being a composite alien made up of a symbiote and a host - so I'm not counting that as the writers adding a bisexual, genderfluid character. Her queerness is an incidental by-product of her being an alien and they were always quick to downplay it.
no, they had LGBT characters in the 90s. They had their ways to do such stories. Remember Dax
@@hornorsilk2901See my edit above. I'm happy to consider Dax bi, but I don't count it as the writers writing a bisexual character because it's all wrapped up in the quirks of her being an alien.
Bashir and Garak were a bit coated but once Berman realized, he did all he could to dispell that notion. Still, the actors consider them a couple and played them as such
@@ACIoanninaSure, but the point is that Star Trek, around the same time as this episode and for a decade afterwards, was hunting down any gay subtext in any of their episodes and shooting it for sport.
That episode was a great approach to the transgender discussion.
There were lesbian couples on TV in the nineties. There weren't on Star Trek, but that's Star Trek. This was not shocking at the time.
OMG, how did you know?
Cause I'm in the corps
What an episode! Lyta Alexander is back. Patricia Tallman was the original telepath of the show, but couldn't be cast for season 1. So, Andrea Thompson was introduced as Talia Winters, and the whole Jason Ironheart story was necessary to get a secretly augmented telepath the Psi Corps doesn't know about. Now, Lyta is back and visits Kosh, while Talia seems to have turned evil. What a plot twist.
NO SPOILERS
@Nikioko - perhaps edit? Could be a spoiler???
@@chrisnielsen9885 I didn't, but you did. Let me put it this way: Lyta Alexander being back was something the two expected because they have seen Shots with her. And the only more thing I said was that they had to replace her in season 1 due to other commitments Patricia Tallman had. I didn't say whether or nor this will be a one time reappearance, or she might become a recurring character. But the last scene with Kosh gives you a clue. Talia's personality is destroyed, according to what Lyta said. So the question is what will happen to the Jason Ironheart plot now. Does Talia still have the gift of telekinesis, or was that wiped along with her old personality. If she still has telekinetic powers, that would make her a powerful weapon in the hands of Psi Corps.
@@chrisnielsen9885 Now you need to edit this, because the pushback is too spoilery. I've done it too. If things get corrected then this will be the problem.
@@Nikioko let me put it this way - you’re giving them more information than they had. Don’t do that
I had a question for the last episode that I forgot to ask.... I was wondering if you think the plague was because of the shadows trying to eliminate a potential threat and not necessarily just a random happening?
Hadn’t considered that at all. We’re not even really sure what the shadows are or what they do.
Andrea Thompson married jerry doyle. Talia married chief garibaldi also irl.
I would have loved if they did the Romance between Ivanova and Tallia. But the Talia Actress wanted to leave the show so JMS wrote her out.
Are they a couple - let me know - don't let me know - no let me know. As River Song would put it..."Spoilers!"
Don’t know if it’s just me but I always liked Talia better than Lyta personally.
JMS is the king of queer subtext
Your predictions were so almost on point with this episode but far from the reasons you thought.
Portraying a same-sex relationship in the 1990s is not that revolutionary. This is a time when shows like Melrose Place or Hooperman had gay characters in or out of relationships.
It is true that for the most part, sci-fi shows shied away from this. Here we got a Lesbian relationship. For 30 minutes before Ivanova's lover turned into a villain. Baby steps...
Sure you didn't look... lol
Promise I didn't
@@brentallenlive Okay then. Lol. I also found Talia a bit poorly used and uninteresting at times. I do love Pat Tallman as an actress and stunt performer though. She did a cool stunt in one of the Austin Powers films. Also has a RUclips channel...
@@brentallenlive i dont get how you guys would guess a random character from the pilot would return for this
@@JamesC1981 I think they said that they have seen stuff with Lyta and figured out that she will return eventually.
Its not a spoiler, its a production note. So if you don`t wanna know don`t open Read more
You sure?
JMS intendet a lesbien relationship between Ivanova And Taliya. However mid 90tis it was not deemed...save to show it on screen.
Remember that Ivanova had some really bad relationships to men in her past. So, that is plausible.
I think the official position is that Susan is bisexual.
@@Asehpe Yes. She definitely had relationships with men before the Talia thing. We actually saw one in season 1, and the guy turned out to be a xenophobic jerk.