Pawn, Player, or Perfect Queen? Jane Seymour
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- Опубликовано: 6 фев 2025
- She was the woman who replaced Anne Boleyn, the queen who finally gave Henry VIII a son, and the wife he never tired of. But was Jane Seymour truly the perfect Tudor queen-or just the perfect pawn?
Was she a meek, obedient consort?
Did she play the game and win?
Or was she simply used by those around her?
Henry VIII’s courtship of Jane began while Anne Boleyn was still queen. But when did it really start? And how much did Jane truly know about the downfall of her predecessor?
Her story is one of quiet ambition, political manoeuvring, and, ultimately, tragic sacrifice.
What do you think-was Jane Seymour a pawn, a player, or Henry’s perfect queen? Let me know in the comments!
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#TudorHistory #JaneSeymour #HenryVIII #AnneBoleyn #TudorQueens #HistoryUncovered #OnThisDay
I have always assumed Jane was Henry’s ‘perfect wife’ because she didn’t live long enough to fall out of favor.
I agree. I also think that it wasn't just a matter of "wife gives Henry a son, therefore wife is safe now" as a lot of people seem to think. Henry would get bored. I think a lot of this wasn't just about having sons, but Henry being lusty, treating the Queen's staff as his personal harem. I found it funny that Katherine Parr had made her ladies in waiting to look unappealing (by wife 6, they would have seen a pattern) to Henry and he was frustrated and called them crows (I think they wore black).
Yes, and gave him just what he wanted, a son.
@ I think the wife who gave him an heir was "safe: in terms of her position as queen. She would have been cheated on but that was just the expectation. Jane would have never been removed from her position as queen if she had lived.
I feel this is an accurate assumption though. She provided a living son.
I think that the difference between Anne and Jane was that Anne was around for years while Henry was trying to annul his marriage to Catherine of Aragon. While he was piously talking about how scripture related to the validity his first marriage, everyone around him knew that it was due to his affair with Anne.
TBH, in Jane's case, I think that he was sick of Anne and was looking for a replacement. If it hadn't been Jane it would have been some other women and Anne's fate would have been the same.
Yes, I think he was determined to set Anne aside.
I'm still dying to know and am perplexed as to why Chapuys found Jane to be cold and haughty while others liked and praised her. Was he comparing Jane to Catherine of Aragon and found her lacking or did he see a side to Jane nobody else did. Maybe he mistook Jane's quietness for coldness or maybe he was just in a position to bravely state what everyone else was thinking regarding Jane's character. I like to consider Jane a relatable, ordinary and quiet person but when you see what her brothers and her son were like i.e. cold and haughty, you'd wonder how much different Jane really was. She is a true enigma.
Yes, Chapuys really wasn't impressed with her on first impressions!
I trust chapuys
I wonder if Jane simply didn't like Chapuys.
@@whiteroses7515 Fair point
It will simply be "one of those issues...". We were not there.
Thanks Claire 🧡
As I've often said and thought, I believe Jane reminded Henry of his mother Elizabeth of York in ways. From what is to be believed, both were quiet, gentle women who were religious, obedient and didn't really get involved in affairs of the Court and council etc.
Henry 8 and all the men around him were to varying degrees manipulative, scheming monsters.
I think monsters is too harsh, but it is true, that the nature of court life did require a degree of ruthlessness. This was amplified by their firm belief that it was their duty to advance their family (this is why every one of Henry's wives came with their own family and friends, as a package of favourites to bestow titles and rewards). We'd condemn that as nepotism today, but they thought of it as quite natural and desirable. Last, but not least, for nobles, there were few avenues of career available and all of them intersected with the King. The whole economic and social system was built around the King, so they had to try to be in his good graces. It's not like they could resign and just find different employment. Worse still they were in debt, often directly to the crown. So, I see them as caught in a black hole that was the court. Whether they liked it or not, they had to play the game and playing the game required doing some immoral things.
And let me tell you, from personal experience in politics, it's a slippery slope. You do things that are indeed necessary for survival, but then you start doing more and more things that aren't necessary and doing mental gymnastics to justify them, until the border between right and wrong is erased. Politics has a way of turning every moral question into grey relativity. You're not a monster, but you do things that are immoral.
She reached the highest point of favor by giving birth to a son. Then she died before she could fall at all. Leaving her the perfect Tudor queen in the King's eyes.
I noticed that in history people who die young, before their time get a lot of forgiveness. Case in point: JFK in the US. Had he not been assassinated, I think history would view him in a more negative light, considering his connections to the mafia and his drug habit. But since he died before his time, he didn't live to become "the villain" (villain is a strong word, but still).
Yes, she died before he could get bored of her or do something wrong.
Five of the six wives time and time again get bad press even to this day and a lot of it can be unfair, unfounded, misunderstood etc. Stubborn, arrogant Aragon, cruel homewrecker Boleyn, cold and calculating Seymour, stupid airhead howard and boring, neglectful Parr etc etc. These women weren't perfect saints but they didn't deserve what Henry and co put each through🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹🌹
Three things 1/ i don't know why people blame Jane for Anne's death - Even if Jane did not exist , the same thing would have happened 2/ There is no way Henry would have ever divorced her, as Edward needed to be the most 100% legitimate child in history, so Henry would want no doubt cast on her or him 3/ Do people realize just how constrained Jane was? Previously, she could have joined a nunnery, but she no longer had that option ,and a good marriage was what Tudor women were bred for .We will never know the answer to your question & I think it's going to remain one of those great frustrating mysteries
Very interesting! Good point about the different views of Anne Boleyn and Jane Seymour.
Another excellent, well-considered presentation. Always a pleasure to listen to your erudite summaries.
Thank you!
I'm sure Jane had no compunction about going after Henry. As a Catholic, she wouldn't have considered Anne and Henry's marriage a valid one. I'm sure she thought Anne would go to a convent or be sent to waste away at a far off manor, as Katherine of Aragon had done. But once her relationship with Henry turned into a literal bloodbath, there was nothing she could have done about it. What was she going to do, say "No thanks Henry, changed my mind"? That would have gone over real well. I have to wonder if any of Henry's wives after Katherine of Aragon actually wanted to be married to him. They got to be queens, yes, but at a very high price.
Yes, I don't believe she had much agency.
Anne was just as cold and cruel towards katherine of Aragon .
Henry Vlll was a horrible monster.
He kills his wife.
Next day, proposes to Jane Seymour.
If I was Jane, I'd run away.
I'm sure the men in Jane's family would not let her do that.
Blessings everyone,
❤️🙏❤️
It's not just the men, but run where, with what money and do what? Nobles didn't have much choice themselves how to live their lives and they were heavily dependent on royal favour. It's not like Jane could resign her job, move to another city and find another one. Then, she had family to think of, family that Henry could have punished for what she did.
@@octavianpopescu4776 😄 I have to say that you are right. All of what you said was true back then.
Poor Jane, she had no choice. 😢
❤️🙏❤️
I wish we could go back in time and save these women!
@@octavianpopescu4776 Well put! Anne Boleyn made a retreat back to Hever, and we know how that went.
Pawn, player, or perfect queen? Yes, yes and no. We know that she was a pawn being coached by her ambitious family and Carew. I believe that she was a willing pawn.That would make her a player, at least in the marriage game. Henry was tired of Anne. I feel that the Seymours saw an opportunity, a void waiting to happen, and stepped up. We know that the Seymours were ambitious. She may have felt some residual loyalty to Catherine and Mary, too. As to being the perfect queen, I don't think so. A definition of a queen's role, in part would be an heir and at least one spare, that lives. Catherine of Aragon gave birth to a short lived baby boy, but we all forget about that when talking about her failed fertility. Jane died when Edward was still a newborn. Had Edward died too, it wouldn't even be a question. Edward lived, though, so that made Jane a successful consort for Henry, but not perfect..
Once again, after listening to your videos, I have so many questions. I would love to know what Jane really felt about it *all.* The previous wife's execution might have given her cold feet. What would the reign of Henry and Jane look like if she lived?
My favorite wives are Catherine of Aragon, Anne of Cleves and Catherine Parr, in that order. Although, for me, Catherine Parr lost her luster in later life after she didn’t step in on behalf of Elizabeth against the abuse of Thomas Seymour.
Yeah,she was just as much a party to the abuse in my view 😡
I couldn't agree more. I honestly can't see how anyone can be true fans of the others. Sure, I feel bad for them in some respects, but they weren't necessarily good people.
@@luxste I do feel sorry for Catherine Howard. She was just a spoiled teenage girl. I think she was just having fun and didn’t realize the enormity of the consequences. She was certainly guilty as charged but she didn’t deserve to be beheaded. Compared to what Henry 8th got up to, she was an angel. Poor kid!
Katherine Parr is my favourite. I like her, including her flaws. So take that as a disclaimer. Thing is: I'm not sure how abusive Thomas Seymour was. Because what we know of those events come from the testimony of one person: Kat Astley and she presents a contradictory image. On one hand she found his behaviour inappropriate, but on the other hand, let's not forget this: she thought he would have made a good match for Elizabeth. Then, there were other people witnessing what was happening and she's the only one who complained about it. Why not the others? And if he was abusive, why would Astley think Elizabeth should have married him? I know that this topic is prominent today in media, older men and young underage girls, but I'd say: I don't think it was as clear-cut abusive and we don't know who did/thought what. Another thing to keep in mind is that this was testimony collected after Seymour's downfall and people had a direct interest of dissociating themselves from him.
She did step in when she realized how serious it was and separated Elizabeth from Seymour.
i think Jane allowed Henry to think he had done the right thing in removing both Catherine and Anne. He thought his first 2 marriages were cursed, and wife 3 giving him a son will have reinforced how 'cursed' they were. I agree that Jane is a bit of all 3 pawn, player, and perfect queen, but how long would being perfect queen have lasted if she had lived longer i wonder. Fascinating video, thanks, i really enjoy the channel :)
I think she would have been safe after providing Henry with a son, but I'm not sure how happy she would have been.
Thank you!
@@anneboleynfiles Am i a bad person for thinking she would have been fine? After all, she only would have had to sleep with him to get pregnant , and after menopause, not at all. Then she could happily be a queen & mother and Henry's mistresses could have dealt with his manky leg & his bad temper
Her death after childbirth was of course, a terrible tragedy. I just can’t get over the fact that they became engaged the day after his previous wife was beheaded. It’s just cringe worthy. She’s probably my least favorite of all of his wives. She was lucky enough to have a son, but not lucky enough to live through it.I’m not a fan of Jane.
I am not a fan of Jane Semores either. Maybe that's why Henry. Liked her.
Mealie mouth.
Me neither!!!
❤️🙏❤️
She wouldn't have had many choices. The king was clearly dangerous
She's my least favourite just because I find her really shadowy. It's frustrating we don't know more about her.
Thank you Claire, I think Jane was Henry's favorite because, she dud give him a legitimate son, and she died young before she had time for him to grow tired of her.
Wasn't Henry often telling people he could have done better than Jane in terms of her looks? I think he was already "tiring" of her pretty early on in their marriage. She fortunately got pregnant soon and then (sadly) died before he could cycle through her. She would have never been officially discarded as the mother of the heir, but Henry's affection for her as she was an individual woman would have waned, though he still would have loved her for having a son.
Correct. He was recorded as saying he wished he had waited before tying himself to Jane as there were much better looking women at court than her
Yes, there is a mention of him commenting on the looks of some ladies at court not long after the marriage.
It took her 8 months to get pregnant, so not that quick. I wonder if Henry was getting nervous and frustrated about it.
@ He probably was but I think he was definitely will to give it a year. I have no doubt Jane was upset and frustrated every time she got her period.
She is all of the above ...
The first two I would say yes to. Was she a perfect Queen to that I would have to say no. She was never in that position long enough to make much of an impact. Because she took on the role of wife she was never going to make any changes like Katherine and Anne. She blended into the background
I think she was most likely a pawn, manipulated by Henry, her brothers, and by the Catholic factions of the court. Possibly, she was also a perfect wife, but only because she didn't upset Henry's applecart too much before producing the required heir. I really dont see her as much of a player, but would love to be able to travel back in time to find out if she did have her moments.
She wasn’t much of a victim at the same time either. She knew what she was getting into but went ahead with it anyway
Definitely a pawn, probably a player to one degree or another or she wouldn't have successfully kept Henry's interest. But how exhausting it would have been to be the "perfect" meek and mild queen, always setting aside your own beliefs and hiding your real feelings, walking on eggshells with Henry's fickle moods.
I always learn something new in these videos. I wasn't aware that Henry VIII required a dispensation to marry Jane Seymour. Provided by the ever obliging Archbishop Cranmer? Thanks, Claire!!
I feel so sorry for Cranmer. He was in bits that day. He'd wept in front of Alexander Alesius that morning, and then he had to go and sort out a dispensation for wife number 3. Horrible.
Thank you!
@@anneboleynfiles I do too. Cranmer still supported Anne, but had to capitulate to his King.
She was in her 20s when she became one of Catherine of Aragon's ladies. She was from a prominent political family ... she knew the game, and as soon as Henry showed interest she had no choice but to play. Playing as a virtuous pawn, but a player nonetheless. As for "perfect queen" - she had a short tenure so no chance for scandal or conflict with Henry. If she had lived, her influence in raising her son, her social power over court decorum, and her family could have been significant.
Henry was an egomaniac
The only way, IMO, that Jane could be anything other than...a number of negative terms I can think...is if she had reason to believe Anne deserved what happened. She would need to believe she had personally witnessed behaviour that was so criminal that death was deserved. Maybe she believed she did.
Otherwise, even if she was not complicit in what happened to Anne, even if Jane was largely ignorant of the machinations and predetermined outcome, she is reprehensible!
It has been said Henry did not force any woman to be his mistress or wife. How could Jane become engaged to Henry so soon after Anne's judicial murder? By that time she should have known every detail. Perhaps Anne's downfall was based partially upon a loose remark about seeking a dead man's shoes. Jane certainly sought to fill not only a dead woman's shoes but also her bed!
I would never allow a man who murdered his wife, legally or otherwise, to touch me! How could any woman share intimacy with such a monster who would kill his wife and queen and the mother of his daughter???? The very thought makes my skin crawl! It is so much worse concerning Jane because her predecessor was destroyed so that Jane could take her place!
Either Jane believed Anne was guilty as charged, at least of treason, or Jane and her family were heartless, greedy usurpers. We do not have evidence to prove either premise.
As far as Jane's death after providing the precious prince, the word karma always comes to mind. Henry certainly deserved a lot of karma! Perhaps the careers, mistakes and bloody demise of Jane's brothers under their nephew's reign, shows us that all these siblings were greedy, ruthless and careless.
Jane family were heartless, greedy usurpers. Look how they behaved when they got their claws into the young Edward VI. They had total control of that child and acted like they were running the country.
I never knew that Anne and Jane were cousins. Interesting as ever, Claire!
I don't think Henry forced any of his wives, but it would have been difficult to say no to him. Anne said no, but he pursued her relentlessly, and, at the end of the day, he had the careers and lives of these women's families in his hands. Catherine Parr was in love with Thomas Seymour but felt she had to say yes to Henry. Sad.
Didn't Jane taunt Anne by opening and shutting a locket given her by the King that had a picture of the King and herself inside i? She would also openly sit on King's lap giggling when she knew Anne would pop in? I had understood that she was a bit nasty to Anne waving her relationship with the King her Anne face all the time.
There's a story told in a 16th century biography of Jane Dormer that Anne came across Jane on the king's lap and that she had a locket with his portrait inside, but it's hard to know the truth of that. I'm sure Chapuys would have written about it if he'd heard the story. Even in the book, it's not exactly Jane taunting Anne, more Anne finding them like that.
Brilliant analysis.
Thank you!
I think that Catherine of Aragon was the best queen and she was loved by the people in a way that no other of the other queens that came after her
Catherine was born royal. Henry would not have lifted a finger. AgInst. Her .
Incorrect.
@@suziemartin3587 He would have, if he could have. I don't think it's a coincidence that the only 2 wives he didn't kill or threaten to kill (let's not forget he threatened Jane and Katherine Parr) were the 2 who were foreigners and had influential relatives he couldn't get to.
Catherine Parr was also quite intelligent 😊
She was certainly the queen the public knew best, but then she was married to Henry VIII for nearly 24 years.
The tendency these days is to portray Jane as a scheming minx who followed Anne's example of being hard to get on purpose. But couldn't she have been making a genuine if not very clever attempt to discourage his advances? Henry had displayed his ruthless ways long before his jousting accident and had already executed numerous people more or less on a whim. My guess is that she was simply terrified by him. And clearly she would not gotten any support from her family if she had defied him by turning him down outright. What choice did she have?
Who on earth is saying she got what she deserved? That's just horrible.
If you have that as your personal belief, I highly recommend therapy and self reflection. Often the bad guys don't know they are the bad guys. I'm telling you: you are a bad guy.
She wasn't perfect but even if she'd been a thousand times more scheming, manipulative and ambitious than the evidence suggests, she still didn't deserve to die so young, barely knowing her only child.
I never thought of Anne as the sole reason that Henry’s marriage to Katherine ended.
Yes, he was infatuated with Anne, but I think it was his realization that he would NEVER have any more children with Katherine that made up his mind.
Now, would Henry have tired of Jane if she had lived?
He had certainly strayed during his marriage to Anne, and shockingly soon, too. He was unfaithful to her during her confinement after Elizabeth’s birth, and regularly again after that. Perhaps it was because he’d lusted after her for so long that the reality of their sex life couldn’t possibly live up to the fever dream that had lasted six years.
Anne’s stubborn and vindictive behaviour didn’t help of course, but once again, it was her several miscarriages that tipped the scales against her.
I think that if Jane had lived, and quite possibly borne more children, things would have gone very differently for her. Henry at last seemed to have acquired a gentle, fruitful wife. He might have had a couple of quiet dalliances, but might very well have spent his middle age happily settled with a fitting, if somewhat bland, woman.
He might well have tired of her, but he would never have divorced or executed her as long as her son Edward lived. It would have cast doubt on Edward's legitimacy.
„How very romantic!“ 😂 I just love your videos.
Thank you!
Pawn of her family but also a player. She knew to keep her mouth shut, after Henry threatened her when she asked to restore the abbeys, it is said. Anne found her sitting on his lap. A dull, plain woman, not too clever but quite cunning. Perhaps that is the wife he wanted. If she hadn't given him an heir she'd have been for the chop, though.
We don’t know enough. Was Jane the type who sat there, doing fine embroidery while telling Henry she has no interest in that Catholic stuff; she was only interested in raising their future sons? Catherine of Aragon was the Mother of the Nation for over 20 years. She was the patron of charities and well loved. Once Henry set his sites on her, Jane would have had no choice but to give in. The males in her family were ambitious so they would have put an enormous amount of pressure on her.
Make no mistake that was a rewrite of history. Why do you think Henry told her to mind her own business and to remember what happened to Anne if she ever interfered again. He wouldn’t have given that warning if she was sitting there doing embroidery. She tried to do what Anne did by leading him when the pilgrimage of grace broke out and that is why Henry shut her down
She didn't do much to speak up for the rebels or to stop the dissolution, and who could blame her as her predecessor had gone to the scaffold. When a tyrannical king shuts you down, you stay shut done.
Catherine of Aragon is the favoured wife for me, Anne of Cleves next. Don’t like choosing ‘sides’ but hard not to, isn’t it? I may be way off base but I’ve never seen Jane as the ‘weak willed little flower”. Bull. You don’t get engaged to someone when the previous wife is still ‘here’ and you don’t marry within hours of your predecessor’s demise. Oh no, king or not , you could convince him t for a little ‘time’ for your ‘sensibilities’. I know, plenty of reasons but - in a way - a brave woman. I mean, who’d want the job? Wearing a put aside queen , an executed queens jewels, possibly clothes. Oh - yuk. Poor girl lost her life after an agonising birth though, no one deserves that. For many of us these days it is, literally, ‘but for the grace of G-D ( and medical advancement) there go i’ 🙏🙏👵🇦🇺
I like to see all six of them as victims of an awful man. I can't imagine what it must have been like being involved with the king and then finding out your predecessor was actually being executed.
Did she have any choice? Seems she couldnt say no
I have a hypothetical question. What if Jane Seymour bore a daughter? Would there have been an Anne of Cleeves? Would Mary regain the throne if Henry had no son? Would England have gone Catholic or would there be civil war?
It's hard to know what would have happened. If she'd had a daughter and lived, there would have been pressure on her to get pregnant as quickly as possible, and she could well have been set aside if that didn't work out.
If she'd died after the birth, then I think Henry would have looked for wife number 4 very quickly, and who knows who that would have been in late 1537/1538?
He was obsessed with a son and couldn't really see either of his daughters as rulers.
Ooft they are all related to each other, how confusing.
Is there a possibility that the Catholic faction set Queen Anne up? In league with Cromwell? She must have had a lot of enemies.
They were definitely a factor in her fall.
Pawn
No she was more than that. She knew what she was doing
I wish we knew.
These peoe really believed in divine right of kings. The royal blood was all important. Princess Mary and her supporters were going to always follow succession.
Yes, but let's just say their interpretation of what that right was, seemed to blow with the wind. Consider Edward V vs Richard III, Jane I vs Mary I, James VI&I. Everyone was in Edward V's favour, proclaiming him King, until they decide to declare him a bastard and some, sure, out of genuine belief and I'm sure many others out of political expediency, switched to Richard III. Then Henry VIII's will, they apply it only when convenient and how it is convenient, which is how the 1553 crisis happens and later, after Elizabeth I's death, James VI&I who had 0 right to the throne is just made King by the council, completely going against the law and Henry VIII's will, which was oh so important in 1553. Divine right wasn't that divine and it wasn't as much a right and they knew it.
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Anne Boleyn is the only wife of Henry VIII I have no sympathy for.
I'd love to know why.
@@anneboleynfiles A lot of reasons but largely her cruelty towards Catherine when she was in power is the clincher.
@Riftrender she definitely didn't do anything to stop the cruelty, but she certainly wasn't the person in charge of it.
All these women had flaws, but I think Henry VIII was the true monster and these women his victims.
I think Jane was EVIL. She knew that she was meddling with a married man. And it's offensive that she married him less than 30 days after his wife's murder.
I think Henry was the one in control, though. I always wonder how much control these women had. I think Anne was rather brave in saying no to him, but he wouldn't stop his pursuit of her.
@@anneboleynfiles Unfortunately, trying to reject him only turned him on.