So impressed with how you reason in these videos around sound. No, you might not hear it, but Yes you know it’s there. It’s all in the feeling and story. And it’s really up to the player to decide what she or he is willing to pay for.
Like others have said a tone control is a simple low pass filter whose cutoff frequency is a function the resistance of the pot and the capacitance. Material does not figure in the equation. Do use audio taper ( logarithmic) pots and you won’t have the big jump you experienced. Love your work.
The tone controls act like a frequency filter - rolling off bass or highs in frequency as you turn the knob. The resistance and capacitance work together to make a 'low pass' or 'high pass' filter. People will focus on ESR and ESL along with capacitance as it needs to work with the pickups all the way through to the amp input section (including the cord capacitance and inductance). Caps are very complex - their impedance (ie blocking) of the guitar signal varies with frequency. Each cap type, construction and even temperature changes this frequency impedance curve too. Also different caps produce different distortions and add both second and third harmonics from the signal entering into them. There's research out there on variations of harmonics being added to signals through different caps. Those harmonics change the tone and sound further - even more so as they go through the amp which then also alters on it's own harmonics. So it's possible to add more warm sound with a cap that adds more second harmonics (the class A distortion that people love out of tube amps) vs a colder hard thrash of adding third harmonic rich caps into the tone stack (which Class B and most transistor/fet push-pull stages have). It's also possible to make a tone stack that uses that to be able to balance between the clean and harmonic sounds you want rather than just rolling off the frequency..
High grade fancy capacitors would make more sense in a high pass filter, where the cap is actually in the signal path. I think this tone control was a low pass filter, with the cap taking the treble frequencies to ground.
@@tombryan1 Bullshit. Caps in amplifiers get the full signal passed thru and amplified a million time more. Caps in guitars get the signal passed to ground. Huge difference in cap application in each.
Also values are what matters. If the capacitors have the same capacitance then they will behave the same. They may have different tolerances and leakage current but if they are electrically the same there will be no difference. An interesting experiment is to build an external tone circuit where you can easily vary capacitor and pot. You don’t have to take the word of 50’s era manufactures. Leo Fender use the components he could easily source at the time.
You forgot to take tolerances into effect. You would need to measure both type Cap to match values first. Then the R C circuit will respond the same. When PIOs were made, that was the level of technology then. .047 is .047 regardless of materials. Like a 100ohm carbon resistance is still 100 if it's a deposit film. Assuming 0 tolerance again. You need a linear taper pot in there instead of that audio taper. B500k or B250k is what you want for more even transition. I like your reclaimed wood style guitars.
I agree with your point on tolerances. But not about using a B-pot. Tone = audio. You are rolling off a part of the spectrum, that is the "volume" of those frequencies, so you need an audio (logarithmic) pot. There are demos on YT. Linear will almost be like an on/off switch. But audio pots range in ratio - there are good and bad ones, good being more gradual, bad - more abrupt, despite the audio taper. I guess linear pots would be good to control lights or a cooling fan :)
@@alexk3088 Alex all I can say is you can have it your way because it's your choice. But you have the understanding of linear and logarithmic inverted or reversed. Linear means an equal rate of change from one end of the pot to the other hence the term linear . The logarithmic pot which is typically the a500k or a 250k, decrease the resistance from 0 to its maximum resistance very slowly and at the very end of travel the resistance increases very rapidly. I don't know what you watched on RUclips about this but I have being schooled and worked as an electronics engineering technologist for 44 years. I know the difference very well. the part resistance is the same regardless of the taper it's just the rate of change that is different. I prefer the b 500 over the a500 because I want the tone to change at a linear rate from 0 to maximum. That's my choice. I just thought I'd mention it. I'm sure you can Google a linear curve and a logarithmic curve and look at the difference between them on the Internet
@@2bikemikesguitartopics145 I have it exactly right (just as you described). The point is: our hearing is logarithmic, not linear, which is why they call them "audio taper'. I am not arguing or telling anyone what to do :) But audio/log taper pots will be heard as smooth and gradual (assuming good ratio), while linear will be heard as "almost nothing" and then a sudden "on/off" effect (even though they change the voltage gradually, in a linear scale. Which you choose - matter of taste. But there's only 1 way to describe them, that's not a matter of debate, IMHO.
Don't tell anyone, but I built a custom guitar amp using everyday stock electronic parts.... and it sounded awesome. A friend ordered one liked mine.... so I built his with the same speaker, same tube models, and same stock parts (some resistor brands were different)... I found that they sounded the same for the most part with a few extremely subtle differences. Any time you swap caps, you're going to have a difference in tolerance, because caps are sold with a 10-20% allowance, two from the same bag may have differences. If it sounds good it is good... don't need any magic mojo. I try and order the FRESHEST caps for new builds to ensure a reliable long life. The caps I use are usually just "house brand" caps that are sold to tube amp and radio repair techs... I can choose red "drops", or yellow tubes.... Yellow tubes are smaller, so those are used more often.
somebody might have talked about it before, I haven't looked, but Pio's need about a 300 hour break in to bloom. I put 6 caps in the crossover of my 1976 Klipsch Cornwall speakers. They sounded aweful in the beginning, but luscious after break in.
PU's have the biggest effect on tone. Appreciate you going through the effort, and for the negligible difference i heard - even that was probably affected by the environment as it was not a "sterile" testing environment or setup. I still have PIO in my one of my guitars though as i couldn't be bothered making another harness myself.
I think Snake Oil capacitors sound best. Seriously, if you consider what the capacitor is doing, shunting the high frequencies to ground, it really doesn't make much difference as long as the capacitor is behaving like a capacitor. (For an accurate comparison you really should have measured the capacitance of each capacitor because they could vary by as much as 20%.) If they are the same actual value (as opposed to marked value), they should behave _exactly_ the same. With respect to vintage capacitors… avoid. The deterioration of the paper inside the capacitor will increase the ESR and that will slightly change the characteristics of the filter because it will be behaving like a capacitor in series with a resistor - unless the capacitor has died completely, in which case it will be just a resistor. If you want to spend $3 to $20 on a capacitor as opposed to $0.10 for a capacitor you're only going to make the seller rich, you're not going to get any better sound. Of course, a $0.10 capacitor doesn't give you the same bragging rights. Audiophools may disagree.
I guess it sells $70 harnesses (made up of $10 worth of pots, couple of bucks worth of wire and a few cents in cap). But there's a ghost of "keef" in every PIO cap :)
I think the $1 cap is money well spent. I have heard that paper + oil caps have a 20 year shelf life whether they are used or not. Try a cap made in Denmark.
Good , they rarely mention the reliability of these parts. I have found that most well made but always have a weak wire which snaps very easily. Good for 1 off instalments.
Awesome《☆》Reminds me of a military surplus store on I-4 west of Daytona. They had a giant capacitor as big as a small garbage can. I think it was rated 1 Farad but it had a clear glass cover🤓🗣🔊☮✌👍🏾
I generally change my tone using the tone knob on the guitar. Since I figure that's what it's on there for. And my strings. Somebody told me years ago that strings have something to do with how a stringed instrument sounds.
You can _make your own_ paper-in-oil capacitors and if you like, make them with lead foil. If they are paper-in-oil they CAN go bad sitting on a shelf.
Yeah, you've got a linear taper pot in there, where you'd do much better with audio taper. As far as the caps go, if you can hear a genuine difference, then I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona for you!! I've been modding guitars and amps for almost as long as I've been playing (53 years and counting), and have tried tons of caps. Although there's some real junk out there, assuming reputable manufacturers any difference is perceived....another fad....the coolest new thing....and a great way for manufacturers to reap huge profits!! Paper in oil is the reason that you have to re-cap old amps!! They fail faster than anything else (at least the old ones do)! i would imagine that, with new manufacturing methods, they're better than they used to be, but I wouldn't waste my money! Good ol' Sprague orange drops...done!! It's kinda like the electric-guitar-tonewood argument. Some people will swear that they hear a difference. My oscilloscope says different! :-)
Certainly a paper cap in a 50 year old amp has seen different use than a paper cap in a low-volt, 50 yr old guitar, tho? I wonder if the problem is after time the material just dries out?
@@NewPerspectivesMusic ... It won't see the voltages as in an amp (tiny amounts of AC millivolts, as opposed to 300-400+ DC volts), and therefore not the physical stress.....which is what usually spells their demise. In a guitar, I wouldn't worry about component failure....I'd be more concerned with simply wasting money!! With the exception of the no-name, dollar-a-million junk caps, one .047 (or .022, etc.) isn't much different than another. I've gone so far as to even try the old 'domino' mica caps, which are reputed to be super-stable and bulletproof and....well, the O-scope doesn't lie! Regardless of what my brain tells my ears (because I just spent ten bucks on a fifty-cent cap), identical waveforms = identical sound coming out of my speakers, all else being equal! Anything else is what the Navy typically refers to as 'Bravo Sierra!' The applicable rule is, "Whatever the customer wants" to make them feel better and/or one step ahead of their friends! That *is* the guitar players' game, right?? LOL :-)
@@normjacques6853 - "Bravo Sierra" LOL. I like that term. Is that official Navy terminology? Yeah. Whatever the customer wants/needs to help them feel uninhibited by their instrument.
@@NewPerspectivesMusic - I watched a video about capacitors last week(?). They mentioned the oil which soaked the paper was to keep water from soaking the paper.
Hi Tim, ear training is an important component in a musicians ability to develop responsive tone and feel. I began mine as a child. I've played some wonderful violins and others that are only suitable for decoration or playing around the campfire. These days I play guitar and there is a difference and guitars and how they are constructed and the components used. The paper in oil was noticeably better.
I just read (written by experienced sound engineer and instrumentist who build amps as well) that paper in oil caps actually are causing a strange reverberance of sound, and propylene/ polyester and mylar caps are focusing the sound. That makes the difference, and ofcourse the value of the caps, the rest is myth.
Well. I was in the camp that they couldn't possibly sound better, but those definitely sound different. Assuming it's not just a slightly off value due to tolerance, it sounds as though it compresses the peaks a bit. Many capacitors change properties slightly depending on the ac voltage level. It almost sounds as though the capacitance goes up when voltage goes up, as well as perhaps the series resistance, which is unusual. I wonder if there is a way to produce a similar effect with modern caps.
It adds a bit of sparkle to me, but not enough to survive a bunch of effects or compression. The problem is that while swapping the capacitor on the main signal generator (the guitar) will effect the tone, it won't make as much of a difference wholesale as if you had swapped out the coupling capacitors in your amp because you will have a bunch more caps in the signal chain that will definitely wash out the effect of a single cap earlier along the chain. Unfortunately, really nice audio capacitors are very cost prohibitive to do an entire amp out of and the difference is only justifiable if you're a professional musician or studio who is in a position to justify the pursuit of "perfect" tone at high expense. Even then, some people find they like the sound of inferior components better, saying that the ultra hi-fi stuff sounds too colorless. Worth noting that all of those people are guitarists... bassists love the hi-fi clarity because they fight the muddiness caused by bass distortion while the guitar sits comfortably in the midrange, thus why they like different amp characteristics.
Good video and confirms my own experience m. The only difference I hear with my own guitars comparing PIO against other and you really have to listen hard, and I hear it in this video too. Zero difference at all until you roll the tone off completely and other capacitors sound a little grainy and distort a little and PIO sound a little smoother and distort less. But anything bigger than 0.022uF ( or 0.033uF on single coils) generally sounds like mud when you do that. So unless you play a lot with rolled off tone knobs say with 0.015uF or 0.01uF capacitors ( which incidentally I occasionally do) then there’s really not much point in shelling out for PIO in my opinion. I used to buy into it but not anymore. I’m using sun tan mylar film capacitors at the moment because they were cheap for a whole bunch.
Its snake oil. Double blind tests have repeatedly found this, showing any difference in tone is down to tolerances. There is a reason PIO caps were abandoned in the 1950s - they were unreliable and unstable as they dried out and their value changed markedly after a couple of years. Any capacitpr will work fine in the tone circuit. Leo was quite happy to use disk ceramics in the '62 Strat, one of the finest sounding guitars of its type. I don't hear of anyone tearing these out and replacing with inferior PIO.
#1, you have to measure them, 2, 20% caps can be 40% different. #2, you can't accurately get the tone knob in the same spot. If it sounds the same at full and the same all the way off, ah, it's the same in-between. As another guy said, caps don't have "tone" it's all in it's value.
I think the story in our head often influences what comes out of the instrument. You're going to play a "magical" guitar differently than you play an off the shelf department store guitar. That alone is worth believing in whatever pixie dust we think exists.
i really liked that wicked tune! i have a les paul custom 68 reissue that l always thought dark sounding, so someone suggested pots and caps swap. Caps that are in at the moment are those ceramic 223. Now i don't see any reasons to change them as i don't hear any substantial difference( i only care about "fixing" "too dark tone" at this point). Maybe pots, but i didnt measure them yet to see if they are below 500k.. thanks for making video and saving me trouble of doing this myself, i would rather just play music! :)
Nurali Kushkov if it’s a bit dark a potentiometer value increase will certainly brighten it up. If need be you can use 1 Meg pots (Audio Taper is best) and then to counter for it being too bright - as 1Meg is often too bright) add a capacitor from hot to ground (hot to ground on the Jack is a perfect place, for example), start experimenting with alligator clips with values from about 1nF, 2nF, 3nF and so forth until you get the sound you like. When you do, solder it on. It doesn’t change the pot value, of course, but it will change the dominant frequencies that you hear.
I think a lot that factors in with the caps is the tolerance value. Some time ago, I ordered two 047UF "orange drops" that were on sale and I measured them with a friends Fluke to see how close they were in value. They were marked at 10% and the difference between the two was around 4%, I can't remember the exact values since both of em are installed in my basses. Not sure which way the tolerance goes when caps are hand made. I'd assume with hand made paper and oil, one can get away with low tolerance and if you measure, then pick and choose.
I tried like hell to find the magic mojo and probably spent $50 on assorted caps of the same value. I tried PiO, tropical fish, orange drops, vitamin Q, etc. I was ready to buy a cap off the Dark Web recovered from the Roswell UFO crash in 1947 when I decided to try going in the opposite direction. I bought a pack of 50 green Chicklet caps from China for $2 delivered, and after repeated testing through my extra creamy 65 Fender Pro Reverb I could tell no difference at all with any of them. That was about 5 years ago and didn't even bother to remove the green Chicklet from my guitar. I fully agree with what others have said about age and tolerances. Unless the ESR and cap values of cap 1 and cap 2 are identical the tone will be different, and age and manufacturing will ensure that it is. This isn't to say that a boutique cap can't sound better, but if it does it's because it has drifted over time.
@Slugg0matic- HaHa! You blew it dude! I scored the very last REAL surviving "Roswell" unobtainium capacitor on the dark web!! IT SOUNDS FREAKING AWSOME!! It's like Tom Sholz waisted all that time inventing the Rockman when he could have just added a single cap to perfect the "Boston sound" he was searching for!! I had to pay $11,000. for ONE capacitor, and it did get pretty beat up when the saucer crashed in the late 1940's... and it was only miraculously found in 2018 buried 4 feet under the surface with a metal detector modded with a divining rod gizmo running Ancient Egyptian software!! That is EPIC!!!! (I hope my wife doesn't find out I sold her DREAM trailer house to pay for it!!)
@@floydloonie4880Good for you! I hear alien technology from the 40's is top shelf stuff. I had given up chasing tone until I found a guy who knows a guy selling caps dipped in Unicorn blood, at midnight during a full moon. Saving my money now cause this is gonna hurt!
I came here without knowing anything about that there could be any difference. Would have been nice to keep it as a surprise which one is praised or hyped by community, so I wouldn't feel now biased. :) But, when I heard the paper version, I was really surprised to hear the difference as it is really not that bright, but warm and mellow. Thank you for the effort.
Evening, Tim! I noticed a major change in the overall tone. The cheaper capacitor had a glassy sound to me, where the more expensive capacitor had a warmer sound to my ears. Like I said when you did you tone wood test, all wood will sound good with good pickups, but the sound will change. Some are brighter, some are darker, some are fatter, some are more nasally. I think some people believe that sound is not affected in any way by the materials used, and that notion is just plain wrong. Your video test proved that, not only once but now twice. :) As for my preferred sound, I dunno. I think I like the more expensive capacitor myself. It softened the bite a bit to make it less painful to my hearing. Not that it hurt, but my ears did seem to enjoy the guitar's sound more with the more expensive capacitor because it lessened the glassy sound the cheaper capacitor had.
right on. thanks for chiming in. My wife can see more colors than me (most women can) which is why I ask her opinion on colors. I Imagine there are people who can hear more sound than me, too. One of the reasons I like making these vids - and debates such as these can never be settled!
@@NewPerspectivesMusic I think I'm in the same boat too. I am certain others hear things I don't, or see things I don't where it pertains to shades of colors.
I can hear a difference but I cannot say which is Better. It definitely cool as an experiment. So as a test box guitar if you had a way to switch between caps with the same pot setting on the same strum... with a single pole switch that goes from one cap to another. FYI I am very good at dreaming up very complex experiments for other people to actually do....
it would be cool to have a switch that chooses between multiple capacitors on one guitar. That's what a lot of those 70s foreign guitars with all the switches do, switch between different cap filters.
I had a 0.5uf one put into a Squier Bronco bass, the tech said it was a good decision and saved me spending ridiculous amounts of money. Going to put 0.033 into a telecaster. Getting harder to find in the UK . Since Brexit, can cost more to get them sent from the EU .
Caps are notoriously imprecise in value, so the notable difference in brightness of tone with the tone knob up full is very likely due to that. If you want better consistency in the electronics from guitar to guitar then you could opt for small tolerance components, including the pots (which increases their cost). As someone else mentioned here PIOs are a fairly old design and prone to degradation over time so their values will alter. I would be inclined to say that their capacitance will reduce given their construction, and they will begin to take on resistive value. I believe the result will be to gradually brighten the tone of a low pass filter. If you want to give your guitars a story you could opt military spec electronic components. All military electronics are chosen for longevity. Aircraft are likely to have the more precise tolerances (though choice of tolerance is typically based on what the purpose of the component is within the particular circuit. Marine equipment will have water and humidity as design factors. Army will likely prioritise temperature, vibration and humidity. To be honest the only parameters of concern here for you really are longevity and tolerance. Longevity will help to maintain your reputation. Tolerance/Precision is normally specified but as for the other parameters you would have to do a little digging to find out. I'm sure there are plenty of military nuts about who can help with that.
My ears can tell that not only the value but the material, physical size and price of the capacitor along with what type of magnets your guitar pickups have can change and shape your guitar tone for better or worse. The longevity varies. Paper and oil can dry up and leak over time and lose value. If you like the sound from a paper and oil cap its worth the maintenance. Experiment with different caps. Let your ears decide what you like is best.
The one thing that I will agree with on Tim is that "Music is Magic". I know nothing about capacitors or any of the other components that go into making a guitar. However, I did not hear any difference in tone but then again, we all hear things a little differently anyway. I guess if one wants to believe that a cap can make a big difference it guitar tone, then they probaly just spent to much on the guitar in the first place! I was wondering how that guitar would have sounded without the cap wired in? Anyway, great video as always............ :)
In theory, the tone knob on 10 bypasses the capacitor all together so that's the true tone. Some people remove the cap all together to get the "true tone" from the pickups and make all adjustments on the amp. I've made/modified a few instruments and bypassed the tone knob all together. I don't miss it :)
with the tone being shaped by pups, amps, and pedals, even if people can notice slight differences in caps, does it matter at all ? is it worth the trouble if paper in oil vs orange drops if they are at the same value?.....i use 22 ......a 22 is a 22 all day ....... old paper in oil caps change over time (get defective, but give a nice tone) , but the new ones shouldn't matter too much
Word. Spend a fortune in magic snake oil caps and then stomp a distortion pedal and phaser and delay and play thru an overdriven amp and then claim you hear a difference. It's all bull-shittery.
Capacitors have a value. The different types of capacitor exist because of the 'environment' they have to work under: temperature, voltage (before they go bang), tolerances, physical size (compared to value - different materials are physically bigger for like values). Your test is ok, but paper and oil caps (as do electrolytic caps) fail over time and their values change. The difference you suspect you hear is this value swing from what's written on the capacitor itself - due solely to the fact that they are cheap old products which no electronics guy would buy. We also have to consider the tolerances, certain materials have a 20% tolerance, so a 0.47uf cap could be as little as 0.38uf or as much as 0.56uf. Other materials have maybe a 2% tolerance, so the same 0.47uf would realistically be between 0.46uf and 0.48uf. Old stock caps like yours could easily be 20-30% under value, so could in fact be 0.33uf. A better test would be to compare same (tested) value caps of different types. In those circumstances I am 101% sure you would notice no difference between mylar, ceramic, electrolytic, oil/paper, etc. Invest in a capacitor tester then buy a bag of 10cent caps....test them all and keep just the ones which are between 0.46 and 0.48uf. You may discard over half of them depending on the type. Tip: guitar signals max out at less than 40mV so any capacitor from 1v to 1000v will suffice.
Nice one!! Very good, accurate and informed comment. Just a minor correction: signal of a pickup can swing 1 volt if active, and passives can be 100s of milivolts too.
@@clasicradiolover can't really compare a radio with a musician application. One tries to reproduce a sound, the other looks to create a specific type of sound.
@@garyt123 You already said what my point is. A capacitor has a value, what it's made of makes mo other difference in how it works. Other than temperature tolerances. It's going to sound the same. To me paper in oil is an old antiquated type. But hey you use what you like and I'll use what I like.
The tone capacitors is part of the low pass filter ( cut high notes ). When you change the capacitance values, and potentiometer cursor position, you acting on the cutoff frequency of the filter.
I THINK THERE IS NOT DIFFRENCE IN TONE. YOU WIN A PRIZE BUT I DON'T HAVE ONE TO GIVE YOU. BUT I LOVE YOUR CREATIVITY ON PALLET GUITARS THEY LOOK GOOD. AND SOUND IS THE NECK NUT BRIDGE AND PICKUPS. NOTHINGG ELSE CHANGES THE TONES.
In essence, it shorts the high frequencies to ground. Capacitive reactance opposes the flow of an oscillating current, like an electrical soundwave. Whether you do paper/oil or a ceramic disc, the performance and efficiency might be different per farad value, but the end game should be the same. It almost seems like your roll-off slope is more linear, but that's more of a case of mechanics improvement or select-ability than overall tone. In addition to doing a blind test, maybe it would be good to analyze something like this with a oscilloscope and determine which harmonics etc might be muted or enhanced. Then ask yourself whether human ear drums are capable of distinguishing it. In these placebo effect electronics circuits people should be asking themselves, "what does this actually do and how does it do it" more than just going with some "vintage hype".
Pretty sure I hear the same thing that I found when trying PIO. PIO have less mids and seem a little clearer. I wouldn't say PIO are necessarily better, it depends on the guitar. In your guitar, I think the standard caps sounded better.
I just spent $500 on a couple of NOS bumble bee caps, now my tone sounds so beautiful and creamy, I am now the best guitarist in the world! hahahahaha!
Darn. I extracted about a dozen Bumble Bee caps from an old TV I'm restoring and threw them into e-waste. I would have sold them to you for much less than $500.
I have both paper in oil capacitor and a cheap little chiclet cap. I like them both. The green chiclet cap has vintage vibe too since it’s in a 1994 guitar. I don’t think I will replace it since it a part of the 90s history
The biggest difference would be the ESR and linearity of the capacitors. Paper and oil are extremely linear and I would be willing to bet the paper and oil is using aluminum or copper for the metal in them so they should have a lower ESR. Edit: Basically the electrons can move from layer to layer with less resistance . Side note if you felt like playing around you could make some lower values very easily. Using copper coil and thin paper. there are quite a few DIY articles out there. Another thing you might want to check out are Dayton foil bypass caps they aren't oil but they are foil. Since this isn't a high voltage application the benefits should be there. Oil is for displacing air which raises the voltage breakdown, Dayton caps are around $1 for the lower values.
Thanks.....enjoyed the video, yes slightly more tonal warmth on the paper/oil cap to my ears, but to the casual listener its miniscule stuff I think. Interesting to see other comments on tone variations, i'm an advocate of wood being the must significant tone changer , but to the average listener again I don't think peoples ears are that attuned to nuances like this !
I believe you have to test the the cap for value , I have metered many caps from the same company and type and they vary sometimes as must as 10 percent , vintage ones 10-30 percent /plus minus
At last a youtuber playing music who actually realises the sound he here's is not the sound we here, I've mentioned this on many videos where people in the comments are saying " this certainly sounds better with that amp or this amp" etc
Tim, I really love that you are doing this. Paper/oil caps DO change the waveform a bit, you can actually see this on a oscilloscope, BUT I’m not sold that many folks actually have the critical hearing ability to really hear the changes but who knows. I know I hear things that others don’t... :-) I like to work on amps and guitars, capacitors work a lot alike in both. Poly and mica caps are fast switching at higher frequencies. Film and paper/oil caps are actually much slower switching because of their dielectric materials. A lot of designers will put in poly caps for loud hard rock and metal guitar circuits and oil caps for bluesy jazzy guitar stuff. Ceramic caps are kind of in the middle, thus the reason I think they get installed stock in so many guitars. When I’m designing with a tone circuit, i usually work with three things, the pot (250k, 500k or 1meg, audio taper), the capacitor size (I always use oil caps), and the bleed resistor size and position (series, parallel, or none), and usually do a ton of substitution to find out what I like best. I personally find that once I figure out, what I like for a particular setup (pups, bridge and switches) the same combo works as long as I don’t change anything. You can build the same guitar over and over and it will sound the same. Change to a different bridge though and all bets are off. At least for me... I had to edit this... I read a comment about oil caps being no good because they go bad in amplifiers. That’s ridiculous, in an amplifier you are attacking 30 or 40 year old caps with up to 600 volts! Then blaming the cap for leaking? Come on... You are talking about caps that have absolutely no voltage running through them. They will be good and not change basically forever. This is why so many old tube guys clip out good sprague “bumblebee” and “black beauty” caps and sell them for guitar circuits. They are shite in an amp but could be used till the end of time in a guitar tone circuit... Now, in my mind they aren’t any different than any other cap but that’s not the point. The point is, there is nothing wrong with the installation of a paper/oil cap in a tone circuit.
right on, I figured some of you had more knowledge and info than I! There is certainly a difference in electronics when you start sending tons of power through them vs passive guitars I'm sure!
You, my friend, are full of sh!t. Sorry. If you want to learn more about caps and their cutoff freq, just Google for the equation involved. Hint: nothing in the equation mention "cap type", "dielectric type", "oil type". It's physics. Maths. This is Real world, not unicorn mojo world.
right, I suppose there's less variation in something with higher tolerances, but when I do this sort of stuff I try to strip it down to what's important: "I swapped caps and this is how it sounds," y'know?
but again, tolerance itself does not affect the sound. If a PIO is 20% higher capacitance that the rated value and you like the tone better, then you can get a regular capacitor with 20% higher capacitance.
Good video thanks for the work man good job I'm making a skateboard guitar right now so I thought that was funny you when you first said it was out of some old wood I was like cool thanks man
Love the Ukraine cap guy. Been using Soviet-era surplus caps about 15 years. My primary instrument is a P Bass. I'm on the Tone knob the whole evening and can definitely tell the difference in the usable range. They are superior to Chiclets, which are very binary in their response. Whether they sound different in a blind test is entirely irrelevant. If they help you play better, there's your audible difference right there. Yes, music is magic.
PIO has sweeter tone, less gritty high. Inherent character of PIO is earlier high freq roll off. You should try paper lacquer capacitor, code MKL MKB. Perhaps your potentiometer is log taper, shouldn't it be linear taper?
Kecap Manis It’s because the values are different. The purpose of a capacitor and what it does is explained well by DylanTalksTone. Watch his video he explains it very well. The values being the same, they will sound exactly the same. Over time the pio fails and it will change the tone since it is not functioning properly.
All things EQUAL, there should NOT be ANY difference in audio output which is simply a result of electrical output. To say otherwise goes against electrical and physics laws. The differences you may here are due to the tolerance differences of each cap which could be anywhere from 1%-40% (20% for one cap and 20% for the other) depending on how precise the manufacturer or seller of EACH wanted to be. As a side note, get a 5 position rotary switch and swap out the tone pot completely, hook 5 different capacitors to each leg... now you have a clearly definable and consistent value that can be dialed up. Change the cap values to taste.
I love it man it's all about the story I skated the skateboards back when I was a young man I'm 54 now had to quit a few years back first guitar built its ghetto fabulous you got skills you want to see it I'm making a video about it on my channel
I heard a steep drop on the last one too so you’re not too deaf... the capacitor in my guitar is soldered to the left end lug (looking at it from the top with the lugs pointing up) and the pickup looks like it was soldered to the middle one (that’s why I opened it up). Does that matter? Or ...must..the capacitor be connected to the middle lug like in most diagrams? I’m waiting to solder it back together so i can play it again so need some help.
I would assume the lug to which the capacitor is soldered to would effect the rate to which it effects things? I'm honestly not sure about that. I've also seen them soldered to the third lug but I've never messed around with that myself or know why. In general, when working with someone else's electronics design, I would put it back exactly as it was unless I really understand what's going on and am making conscious changes.
@@NewPerspectivesMusic yes I figured out enough at the end to realize there may be a reason why it was the opposite way round so I've soldered it back the way it was and it sounds ok. Thanks for the reply.
Boyz Capacitors have tolerances. A little difference in value can easily be heard. For example .015uF at +15% is .017uF .022uF at -15% is .018uF As long as you do not compare capacitors with the same MESURED value, your test is wrong.
After 40 years building audio electronics. I have come to know that quality parts are expensive but they outlast cheap parts! Do they sound better, not when the cheap parts are new. But as things age, the higher quality parts will still be within tolerance years down the road. So, with that in mind, they will function and sound better as time marches on. 1 last point, the old Vitamin Q, Sangamo, and others. That used metal and glass bodies for their caps will last for decades. They do not dry out! I have used some that are 65+ years old. Plus, in my opinion, they are often superior to new "boutique" manufactured caps. Because manufacturers are not allowed to use the same chemicals that were used in 1940'-60's. Coupling caps in a tube amplifier will make a difference and not subtle. Measurements are always a good approach don't trust your ears.
Mr. Fister yes, I use a Yamaha Pacifica311H with a P90 and a Humbucker, a split pot and a Mylar cap. I open the guitar and see the split pot with 250 k...I swap it to a normal pot with 500k and the sun is shining. I Test Mustard, orange drops and Mylar caps...in my ear it is a good sound without a splitpot and I am happy with it. I don’t need split Humbuckersound. But why put Yamaha little Alpha pots in it?🙈💥🎸😎🎼👍
Mini pots in cheap guitars are no different than CTS or Bourne's potentiometers. In fact, if you use a split pot, its footprint is identical as one of those "cheapos". Also, you'll find mini pots in high end gear like amps and pedals.
Buttered Biskit yes!!!! Imagine how expensive pedals would be if they filled them with paper-in-oil caps and fancy pots 🤯. Cheap stuff, if in spec, is fine
I’m trying to find information on caps for guitar amplifiers. A lot on RUclips about caps for guitars but not a lot for amps. I’m surprised guitarists would be upset about cap prices when they’re only going to be using one or two, after buying expensive tone wood and boutique pedals Wouldn’t an EQ pedal be easier and more impactful on tone, or just tweaking the tone on the amp? That said, I’m trying to learn why I paid more for fancy caps in my amp, and once I do maybe I’ll have a new obsession
In the quest for "better tone" I think some people prefer to spend money than practice :) I agree that off the instrument is the best place to make electric guitar tone changes, but it is nice to have another quick color at your fingertips. A lot of my guitars have tone drop switcheds with several capacitors instead of one and a knob. some of them have no caps at all, just a volume knob :)
Cap is a cap, don't matter what it's made out of. It's value is what matters. You have to take into account tolerance. Signal NEVER passes thru a cap, it can't, the two leads are not connected together, they charge and discharge so what they are made of doesn't matter. A 30 cent mylar cap sounds exactly like a 100 dollar bumblebee cap if they are exactly the same value.
So impressed with how you reason in these videos around sound.
No, you might not hear it, but Yes you know it’s there.
It’s all in the feeling and story. And it’s really up to the player to decide what she or he is willing to pay for.
Like others have said a tone control is a simple low pass filter whose cutoff frequency is a function the resistance of the pot and the capacitance. Material does not figure in the equation. Do use audio taper ( logarithmic) pots and you won’t have the big jump you experienced. Love your work.
thanks man!
Yup. Fcutoff = 1/(2*R*C*pi) .
I don't understand why there is so many opinions about this. We've only designed with it for about a century.
Hell yeah that was night and day kid. Instantly discernible.
The tone controls act like a frequency filter - rolling off bass or highs in frequency as you turn the knob. The resistance and capacitance work together to make a 'low pass' or 'high pass' filter. People will focus on ESR and ESL along with capacitance as it needs to work with the pickups all the way through to the amp input section (including the cord capacitance and inductance).
Caps are very complex - their impedance (ie blocking) of the guitar signal varies with frequency. Each cap type, construction and even temperature changes this frequency impedance curve too.
Also different caps produce different distortions and add both second and third harmonics from the signal entering into them. There's research out there on variations of harmonics being added to signals through different caps. Those harmonics change the tone and sound further - even more so as they go through the amp which then also alters on it's own harmonics.
So it's possible to add more warm sound with a cap that adds more second harmonics (the class A distortion that people love out of tube amps) vs a colder hard thrash of adding third harmonic rich caps into the tone stack (which Class B and most transistor/fet push-pull stages have).
It's also possible to make a tone stack that uses that to be able to balance between the clean and harmonic sounds you want rather than just rolling off the frequency..
I just tried and NOS Erie .02uf ceramic in my Tele and it colored the tone in an unpleasant way I was surprised to hear that..
High grade fancy capacitors would make more sense in a high pass filter, where the cap is actually in the signal path. I think this tone control was a low pass filter, with the cap taking the treble frequencies to ground.
I've heard they make no difference in guitars but do make a difference in point to point wired amps.
@@davidcudlip6587 you heard wrong. Caps function the same, no difference
@@tombryan1 Bullshit. Caps in amplifiers get the full signal passed thru and amplified a million time more. Caps in guitars get the signal passed to ground. Huge difference in cap application in each.
Just now watched this video. I agree with those who suggested changing what I think is a linear taper pot to audio (logarithmic)taper) pot
Also values are what matters. If the capacitors have the same capacitance then they will behave the same. They may have different tolerances and leakage current but if they are electrically the same there will be no difference. An interesting experiment is to build an external tone circuit where you can easily vary capacitor and pot. You don’t have to take the word of 50’s era manufactures. Leo Fender use the components he could easily source at the time.
You forgot to take tolerances into effect. You would need to measure both type Cap to match values first. Then the R C circuit will respond the same. When PIOs were made, that was the level of technology then.
.047 is .047 regardless of materials. Like a 100ohm carbon resistance is still 100 if it's a deposit film. Assuming 0 tolerance again. You need a linear taper pot in there instead of that audio taper. B500k or B250k is what you want for more even transition. I like your reclaimed wood style guitars.
"047 is .047 regardless of materials" And there's only one parameter concerning capacitors.
I agree with your point on tolerances. But not about using a B-pot. Tone = audio. You are rolling off a part of the spectrum, that is the "volume" of those frequencies, so you need an audio (logarithmic) pot. There are demos on YT. Linear will almost be like an on/off switch. But audio pots range in ratio - there are good and bad ones, good being more gradual, bad - more abrupt, despite the audio taper. I guess linear pots would be good to control lights or a cooling fan :)
@@alexk3088
Alex all I can say is you can have it your way because it's your choice. But you have the understanding of linear and logarithmic inverted or reversed. Linear means an equal rate of change from one end of the pot to the other hence the term linear . The logarithmic pot which is typically the a500k or a 250k, decrease the resistance from 0 to its maximum resistance very slowly and at the very end of travel the resistance increases very rapidly. I don't know what you watched on RUclips about this but I have being schooled and worked as an electronics engineering technologist for 44 years. I know the difference very well.
the part resistance is the same regardless of the taper it's just the rate of change that is different. I prefer the b 500 over the a500 because I want the tone to change at a linear rate from 0 to maximum. That's my choice. I just thought I'd mention it. I'm sure you can Google a linear curve and a logarithmic curve and look at the difference between them on the Internet
@@2bikemikesguitartopics145 I have it exactly right (just as you described). The point is: our hearing is logarithmic, not linear, which is why they call them "audio taper'. I am not arguing or telling anyone what to do :) But audio/log taper pots will be heard as smooth and gradual (assuming good ratio), while linear will be heard as "almost nothing" and then a sudden "on/off" effect (even though they change the voltage gradually, in a linear scale. Which you choose - matter of taste. But there's only 1 way to describe them, that's not a matter of debate, IMHO.
@@2bikemikesguitartopics145 here's a short video where we can all use our ears to decide: ruclips.net/video/7ANG3OrL5HI/видео.html
I installed a nos sozo 223 cap in my guitar on 50’s wiring. It’s perfect
Don't tell anyone, but I built a custom guitar amp using everyday stock electronic parts.... and it sounded awesome. A friend ordered one liked mine.... so I built his with the same speaker, same tube models, and same stock parts (some resistor brands were different)... I found that they sounded the same for the most part with a few extremely subtle differences. Any time you swap caps, you're going to have a difference in tolerance, because caps are sold with a 10-20% allowance, two from the same bag may have differences. If it sounds good it is good... don't need any magic mojo. I try and order the FRESHEST caps for new builds to ensure a reliable long life. The caps I use are usually just "house brand" caps that are sold to tube amp and radio repair techs... I can choose red "drops", or yellow tubes.... Yellow tubes are smaller, so those are used more often.
somebody might have talked about it before, I haven't looked, but Pio's need about a 300 hour
break in to bloom. I put 6 caps in the crossover of my 1976 Klipsch Cornwall speakers. They sounded aweful in the beginning, but luscious after break in.
Absolutely brilliant thank you
The buzzsaw blade clock on the wall is a serious piece of kit!
You have a linear taper pot on the tone.
The sweet spot is just a couple degrees right before drop off.
PU's have the biggest effect on tone. Appreciate you going through the effort, and for the negligible difference i heard - even that was probably affected by the environment as it was not a "sterile" testing environment or setup. I still have PIO in my one of my guitars though as i couldn't be bothered making another harness myself.
The "plastic" capacitor you have there is a polyester film capacitor, also known as a mylar capacitor.
It could also be polypropylene film capacitor, which makes no difference anyway.)
@@SlavaGen The hell it doesn't. Bro to say polyester and polypropylene don't sound different is absolutely absurd
I think Snake Oil capacitors sound best. Seriously, if you consider what the capacitor is doing, shunting the high frequencies to ground, it really doesn't make much difference as long as the capacitor is behaving like a capacitor. (For an accurate comparison you really should have measured the capacitance of each capacitor because they could vary by as much as 20%.) If they are the same actual value (as opposed to marked value), they should behave _exactly_ the same. With respect to vintage capacitors… avoid. The deterioration of the paper inside the capacitor will increase the ESR and that will slightly change the characteristics of the filter because it will be behaving like a capacitor in series with a resistor - unless the capacitor has died completely, in which case it will be just a resistor. If you want to spend $3 to $20 on a capacitor as opposed to $0.10 for a capacitor you're only going to make the seller rich, you're not going to get any better sound. Of course, a $0.10 capacitor doesn't give you the same bragging rights. Audiophools may disagree.
wow this is a nice vid demo i like the vintage it can easy to add some crazy nodulation effects experiments thank you
I guess it sells $70 harnesses (made up of $10 worth of pots, couple of bucks worth of wire and a few cents in cap). But there's a ghost of "keef" in every PIO cap :)
Styroflex and Teflon caps are nice too! Pios rule!
I think the $1 cap is money well spent. I have heard that paper + oil caps have a 20 year shelf life whether they are used or not. Try a cap made in Denmark.
Good , they rarely mention the reliability of these parts. I have found that most well made but always have a weak wire which snaps very easily. Good for 1 off instalments.
As long as the cap is accurate thats all that matters. In fact the paper oil ones are temperature sensitive so their value is going to fluctuate.
Awesome《☆》Reminds me of a military surplus store on I-4 west of Daytona. They had a giant capacitor as big as a small garbage can. I think it was rated 1 Farad but it had a clear glass cover🤓🗣🔊☮✌👍🏾
I generally change my tone using the tone knob on the guitar. Since I figure that's what it's on there for. And my strings. Somebody told me years ago that strings have something to do with how a stringed instrument sounds.
Your blessed! I'm defenitly going to keep supporting your channel💪💪👊
That's a really nice sounding guitar riff and I enjoyed this video!
I will only use the crustiest and dustiest capacitor in my stash of the correct value.
You can _make your own_ paper-in-oil capacitors and if you like, make them with lead foil. If they are paper-in-oil they CAN go bad sitting on a shelf.
Yeah, you've got a linear taper pot in there, where you'd do much better with audio taper. As far as the caps go, if you can hear a genuine difference, then I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona for you!! I've been modding guitars and amps for almost as long as I've been playing (53 years and counting), and have tried tons of caps. Although there's some real junk out there, assuming reputable manufacturers any difference is perceived....another fad....the coolest new thing....and a great way for manufacturers to reap huge profits!!
Paper in oil is the reason that you have to re-cap old amps!! They fail faster than anything else (at least the old ones do)! i would imagine that, with new manufacturing methods, they're better than they used to be, but I wouldn't waste my money! Good ol' Sprague orange drops...done!! It's kinda like the electric-guitar-tonewood argument. Some people will swear that they hear a difference. My oscilloscope says different! :-)
Yeah. That pot taper does make it difficult to do any fine adjustment.
Certainly a paper cap in a 50 year old amp has seen different use than a paper cap in a low-volt, 50 yr old guitar, tho? I wonder if the problem is after time the material just dries out?
@@NewPerspectivesMusic ... It won't see the voltages as in an amp (tiny amounts of AC millivolts, as opposed to 300-400+ DC volts), and therefore not the physical stress.....which is what usually spells their demise. In a guitar, I wouldn't worry about component failure....I'd be more concerned with simply wasting money!! With the exception of the no-name, dollar-a-million junk caps, one .047 (or .022, etc.) isn't much different than another. I've gone so far as to even try the old 'domino' mica caps, which are reputed to be super-stable and bulletproof and....well, the O-scope doesn't lie! Regardless of what my brain tells my ears (because I just spent ten bucks on a fifty-cent cap), identical waveforms = identical sound coming out of my speakers, all else being equal! Anything else is what the Navy typically refers to as 'Bravo Sierra!' The applicable rule is, "Whatever the customer wants" to make them feel better and/or one step ahead of their friends! That *is* the guitar players' game, right?? LOL :-)
@@normjacques6853 - "Bravo Sierra" LOL. I like that term. Is that official Navy terminology?
Yeah. Whatever the customer wants/needs to help them feel uninhibited by their instrument.
@@NewPerspectivesMusic - I watched a video about capacitors last week(?). They mentioned the oil which soaked the paper was to keep water from soaking the paper.
Hi Tim, ear training is an important component in a musicians ability to develop responsive tone and feel. I began mine as a child. I've played some wonderful violins and others that are only suitable for decoration or playing around the campfire. These days I play guitar and there is a difference and guitars and how they are constructed and the components used. The paper in oil was noticeably better.
I just read (written by experienced sound engineer and instrumentist who build amps as well) that paper in oil caps actually are causing a strange reverberance of sound, and propylene/ polyester and mylar caps are focusing the sound. That makes the difference, and ofcourse the value of the caps, the rest is myth.
If you think it changes the sound, go for it! I am sure that in 50 years from now they will be looking for pre "Cold War 2 Era" caps... :P
haha! pretty much.
Can anyone tell me where I can get Jurassic granite capacitors, I am into to "rock" and roll sounds 😂
Well. I was in the camp that they couldn't possibly sound better, but those definitely sound different. Assuming it's not just a slightly off value due to tolerance, it sounds as though it compresses the peaks a bit. Many capacitors change properties slightly depending on the ac voltage level. It almost sounds as though the capacitance goes up when voltage goes up, as well as perhaps the series resistance, which is unusual. I wonder if there is a way to produce a similar effect with modern caps.
It adds a bit of sparkle to me, but not enough to survive a bunch of effects or compression. The problem is that while swapping the capacitor on the main signal generator (the guitar) will effect the tone, it won't make as much of a difference wholesale as if you had swapped out the coupling capacitors in your amp because you will have a bunch more caps in the signal chain that will definitely wash out the effect of a single cap earlier along the chain. Unfortunately, really nice audio capacitors are very cost prohibitive to do an entire amp out of and the difference is only justifiable if you're a professional musician or studio who is in a position to justify the pursuit of "perfect" tone at high expense. Even then, some people find they like the sound of inferior components better, saying that the ultra hi-fi stuff sounds too colorless. Worth noting that all of those people are guitarists... bassists love the hi-fi clarity because they fight the muddiness caused by bass distortion while the guitar sits comfortably in the midrange, thus why they like different amp characteristics.
Good video and confirms my own experience m.
The only difference I hear with my own guitars comparing PIO against other and you really have to listen hard, and I hear it in this video too.
Zero difference at all until you roll the tone off completely and other capacitors sound a little grainy and distort a little and PIO sound a little smoother and distort less. But anything bigger than 0.022uF ( or 0.033uF on single coils) generally sounds like mud when you do that.
So unless you play a lot with rolled off tone knobs say with 0.015uF or 0.01uF capacitors ( which incidentally I occasionally do) then there’s really not much point in shelling out for PIO in my opinion. I used to buy into it but not anymore. I’m using sun tan mylar film capacitors at the moment because they were cheap for a whole bunch.
Its snake oil. Double blind tests have repeatedly found this, showing any difference in tone is down to tolerances. There is a reason PIO caps were abandoned in the 1950s - they were unreliable and unstable as they dried out and their value changed markedly after a couple of years. Any capacitpr will work fine in the tone circuit. Leo was quite happy to use disk ceramics in the '62 Strat, one of the finest sounding guitars of its type. I don't hear of anyone tearing these out and replacing with inferior PIO.
#1, you have to measure them, 2, 20% caps can be 40% different. #2, you can't accurately get the tone knob in the same spot. If it sounds the same at full and the same all the way off, ah, it's the same in-between. As another guy said, caps don't have "tone" it's all in it's value.
I think the story in our head often influences what comes out of the instrument. You're going to play a "magical" guitar differently than you play an off the shelf department store guitar. That alone is worth believing in whatever pixie dust we think exists.
right. If pallet wood is your mojo, come to me. if it's unicorn and ebony, go to prs :)
The Doors of Perception are now open...to all.
i really liked that wicked tune!
i have a les paul custom 68 reissue that l always thought dark sounding, so someone suggested pots and caps swap. Caps that are in at the moment are those ceramic 223. Now i don't see any reasons to change them as i don't hear any substantial difference( i only care about "fixing" "too dark tone" at this point).
Maybe pots, but i didnt measure them yet to see if they are below 500k..
thanks for making video and saving me trouble of doing this myself, i would rather just play music! :)
Nurali Kushkov if it’s a bit dark a potentiometer value increase will certainly brighten it up.
If need be you can use 1 Meg pots (Audio Taper is best) and then to counter for it being too bright - as 1Meg is often too bright) add a capacitor from hot to ground (hot to ground on the Jack is a perfect place, for example), start experimenting with alligator clips with values from about 1nF, 2nF, 3nF and so forth until you get the sound you like. When you do, solder it on. It doesn’t change the pot value, of course, but it will change the dominant frequencies that you hear.
Snake Oil.. all of it..
I think a lot that factors in with the caps is the tolerance value. Some time ago, I ordered two 047UF "orange drops" that were on sale and I measured them with a friends Fluke to see how close they were in value. They were marked at 10% and the difference between the two was around 4%, I can't remember the exact values since both of em are installed in my basses. Not sure which way the tolerance goes when caps are hand made. I'd assume with hand made paper and oil, one can get away with low tolerance and if you measure, then pick and choose.
Caps are usually sold at a 10-20% tolerance, so you can grab two out of the same lot and find differences.
I tried like hell to find the magic mojo and probably spent $50 on assorted caps of the same value. I tried PiO, tropical fish, orange drops, vitamin Q, etc. I was ready to buy a cap off the Dark Web recovered from the Roswell UFO crash in 1947 when I decided to try going in the opposite direction. I bought a pack of 50 green Chicklet caps from China for $2 delivered, and after repeated testing through my extra creamy 65 Fender Pro Reverb I could tell no difference at all with any of them. That was about 5 years ago and didn't even bother to remove the green Chicklet from my guitar.
I fully agree with what others have said about age and tolerances. Unless the ESR and cap values of cap 1 and cap 2 are identical the tone will be different, and age and manufacturing will ensure that it is. This isn't to say that a boutique cap can't sound better, but if it does it's because it has drifted over time.
@Slugg0matic- HaHa! You blew it dude! I scored the very last REAL surviving "Roswell" unobtainium capacitor on the dark web!! IT SOUNDS FREAKING AWSOME!! It's like Tom Sholz waisted all that time inventing the Rockman when he could have just added a single cap to perfect the "Boston sound" he was searching for!! I had to pay $11,000. for ONE capacitor, and it did get pretty beat up when the saucer crashed in the late 1940's... and it was only miraculously found in 2018 buried 4 feet under the surface with a metal detector modded with a divining rod gizmo running Ancient Egyptian software!! That is EPIC!!!! (I hope my wife doesn't find out I sold her DREAM trailer house to pay for it!!)
@@floydloonie4880Good for you! I hear alien technology from the 40's is top shelf stuff. I had given up chasing tone until I found a guy who knows a guy selling caps dipped in Unicorn blood, at midnight during a full moon. Saving my money now cause this is gonna hurt!
A Guitar with plug in capacitor modules would be great!!!
I agree with you. Nothing really noticeable until the very end!
I came here without knowing anything about that there could be any difference. Would have been nice to keep it as a surprise which one is praised or hyped by community, so I wouldn't feel now biased. :) But, when I heard the paper version, I was really surprised to hear the difference as it is really not that bright, but warm and mellow. Thank you for the effort.
You dont know how they function but you are testing them, got it
Evening, Tim! I noticed a major change in the overall tone. The cheaper capacitor had a glassy sound to me, where the more expensive capacitor had a warmer sound to my ears.
Like I said when you did you tone wood test, all wood will sound good with good pickups, but the sound will change. Some are brighter, some are darker, some are fatter, some are more nasally. I think some people believe that sound is not affected in any way by the materials used, and that notion is just plain wrong. Your video test proved that, not only once but now twice. :)
As for my preferred sound, I dunno. I think I like the more expensive capacitor myself. It softened the bite a bit to make it less painful to my hearing. Not that it hurt, but my ears did seem to enjoy the guitar's sound more with the more expensive capacitor because it lessened the glassy sound the cheaper capacitor had.
right on. thanks for chiming in. My wife can see more colors than me (most women can) which is why I ask her opinion on colors. I Imagine there are people who can hear more sound than me, too. One of the reasons I like making these vids - and debates such as these can never be settled!
@@NewPerspectivesMusic I think I'm in the same boat too. I am certain others hear things I don't, or see things I don't where it pertains to shades of colors.
I can hear a difference but I cannot say which is Better. It definitely cool as an experiment. So as a test box guitar if you had a way to switch between caps with the same pot setting on the same strum... with a single pole switch that goes from one cap to another. FYI I am very good at dreaming up very complex experiments for other people to actually do....
it would be cool to have a switch that chooses between multiple capacitors on one guitar. That's what a lot of those 70s foreign guitars with all the switches do, switch between different cap filters.
I had a 0.5uf one put into a Squier Bronco bass, the tech said it was a good decision and saved me spending ridiculous amounts of money. Going to put 0.033 into a telecaster. Getting harder to find in the UK . Since Brexit, can cost more to get them sent from the EU .
Caps are notoriously imprecise in value, so the notable difference in brightness of tone with the tone knob up full is very likely due to that. If you want better consistency in the electronics from guitar to guitar then you could opt for small tolerance components, including the pots (which increases their cost). As someone else mentioned here PIOs are a fairly old design and prone to degradation over time so their values will alter. I would be inclined to say that their capacitance will reduce given their construction, and they will begin to take on resistive value. I believe the result will be to gradually brighten the tone of a low pass filter.
If you want to give your guitars a story you could opt military spec electronic components. All military electronics are chosen for longevity. Aircraft are likely to have the more precise tolerances (though choice of tolerance is typically based on what the purpose of the component is within the particular circuit. Marine equipment will have water and humidity as design factors. Army will likely prioritise temperature, vibration and humidity. To be honest the only parameters of concern here for you really are longevity and tolerance. Longevity will help to maintain your reputation. Tolerance/Precision is normally specified but as for the other parameters you would have to do a little digging to find out. I'm sure there are plenty of military nuts about who can help with that.
My ears can tell that not only the value but the material, physical size and price of the capacitor along with what type of magnets your guitar pickups have can change and shape your guitar tone for better or worse. The longevity varies. Paper and oil can dry up and leak over time and lose value. If you like the sound from a paper and oil cap its worth the maintenance. Experiment with different caps. Let your ears decide what you like is best.
When I jump from 3:30 to 7:40 it sounds a lot brighter at 3:30. Theres no way I would blow £50 on a bumblebee cap put it that way.
The one thing that I will agree with on Tim is that "Music is Magic". I know nothing about capacitors or any of the other components that go into making a guitar. However, I did not hear any difference in tone but then again, we all hear things a little differently anyway. I guess if one wants to believe that a cap can make a big difference it guitar tone, then they probaly just spent to much on the guitar in the first place! I was wondering how that guitar would have sounded without the cap wired in? Anyway, great video as always............ :)
In theory, the tone knob on 10 bypasses the capacitor all together so that's the true tone. Some people remove the cap all together to get the "true tone" from the pickups and make all adjustments on the amp. I've made/modified a few instruments and bypassed the tone knob all together. I don't miss it :)
with the tone being shaped by pups, amps, and pedals, even if people can notice slight differences in caps, does it matter at all ? is it worth the trouble if paper in oil vs orange drops if they are at the same value?.....i use 22 ......a 22 is a 22 all day ....... old paper in oil caps change over time (get defective, but give a nice tone) , but the new ones shouldn't matter too much
Word. Spend a fortune in magic snake oil caps and then stomp a distortion pedal and phaser and delay and play thru an overdriven amp and then claim you hear a difference. It's all bull-shittery.
Capacitors have a value. The different types of capacitor exist because of the 'environment' they have to work under: temperature, voltage (before they go bang), tolerances, physical size (compared to value - different materials are physically bigger for like values).
Your test is ok, but paper and oil caps (as do electrolytic caps) fail over time and their values change. The difference you suspect you hear is this value swing from what's written on the capacitor itself - due solely to the fact that they are cheap old products which no electronics guy would buy. We also have to consider the tolerances, certain materials have a 20% tolerance, so a 0.47uf cap could be as little as 0.38uf or as much as 0.56uf. Other materials have maybe a 2% tolerance, so the same 0.47uf would realistically be between 0.46uf and 0.48uf.
Old stock caps like yours could easily be 20-30% under value, so could in fact be 0.33uf.
A better test would be to compare same (tested) value caps of different types. In those circumstances I am 101% sure you would notice no difference between mylar, ceramic, electrolytic, oil/paper, etc. Invest in a capacitor tester then buy a bag of 10cent caps....test them all and keep just the ones which are between 0.46 and 0.48uf. You may discard over half of them depending on the type. Tip: guitar signals max out at less than 40mV so any capacitor from 1v to 1000v will suffice.
Nice one!! Very good, accurate and informed comment. Just a minor correction: signal of a pickup can swing 1 volt if active, and passives can be 100s of milivolts too.
@@ricardoc.8468 Thanks for the correction Ricardo.
Cheap and the first thing removed if someone is refurbishing a 50's radio. Sme techs say they may sound warmer if they are leaking power through
@@clasicradiolover can't really compare a radio with a musician application. One tries to reproduce a sound, the other looks to create a specific type of sound.
@@garyt123 You already said what my point is. A capacitor has a value, what it's made of makes mo other difference in how it works. Other than temperature tolerances. It's going to sound the same. To me paper in oil is an old antiquated type. But hey you use what you like and I'll use what I like.
The tone capacitors is part of the low pass filter ( cut high notes ). When you change the capacitance values, and potentiometer cursor position, you acting on the cutoff frequency of the filter.
I THINK THERE IS NOT DIFFRENCE IN TONE. YOU WIN A PRIZE BUT I DON'T HAVE ONE TO GIVE YOU. BUT I LOVE YOUR CREATIVITY ON PALLET GUITARS THEY LOOK GOOD. AND SOUND IS THE NECK NUT BRIDGE AND PICKUPS. NOTHINGG ELSE CHANGES THE TONES.
In essence, it shorts the high frequencies to ground. Capacitive reactance opposes the flow of an oscillating current, like an electrical soundwave. Whether you do paper/oil or a ceramic disc, the performance and efficiency might be different per farad value, but the end game should be the same. It almost seems like your roll-off slope is more linear, but that's more of a case of mechanics improvement or select-ability than overall tone. In addition to doing a blind test, maybe it would be good to analyze something like this with a oscilloscope and determine which harmonics etc might be muted or enhanced. Then ask yourself whether human ear drums are capable of distinguishing it. In these placebo effect electronics circuits people should be asking themselves, "what does this actually do and how does it do it" more than just going with some "vintage hype".
Pretty sure I hear the same thing that I found when trying PIO. PIO have less mids and seem a little clearer. I wouldn't say PIO are necessarily better, it depends on the guitar. In your guitar, I think the standard caps sounded better.
I just spent $500 on a couple of NOS bumble bee caps, now my tone sounds so beautiful and creamy, I am now the best guitarist in the world! hahahahaha!
You are no longer an ordinary guy now 😆
Darn. I extracted about a dozen Bumble Bee caps from an old TV I'm restoring and threw them into e-waste. I would have sold them to you for much less than $500.
I have both paper in oil capacitor and a cheap little chiclet cap. I like them both. The green chiclet cap has vintage vibe too since it’s in a 1994 guitar. I don’t think I will replace it since it a part of the 90s history
To my surprise I felt that the paper in oil capacitor sounded, for a lack of better words, less muffled. Perhaps it’s all in my imagination.
is that an a500 on the tone, or the b500?. It sounded linear to me. Either way, GREAT TONE VARIATIONS.
The biggest difference would be the ESR and linearity of the capacitors. Paper and oil are extremely linear and I would be willing to bet the paper and oil is using aluminum or copper for the metal in them so they should have a lower ESR.
Edit: Basically the electrons can move from layer to layer with less resistance . Side note if you felt like playing around you could make some lower values very easily. Using copper coil and thin paper. there are quite a few DIY articles out there.
Another thing you might want to check out are Dayton foil bypass caps they aren't oil but they are foil. Since this isn't a high voltage application the benefits should be there. Oil is for displacing air which raises the voltage breakdown, Dayton caps are around $1 for the lower values.
Do you use LOG pots on tone control ? I don't hear a lot of difference on the beginning of the course, but a huge one at the end.
The first russian capacitor is not pio. This is a paper in wax. This capacitor have much leakeage, not good to compare with another types
Interesting testing. Thanks for sharing!😄
cheers!
Good nerding!
Thanks.....enjoyed the video, yes slightly more tonal warmth on the paper/oil cap to my ears, but to the casual listener its miniscule stuff I think. Interesting to see other comments on tone variations, i'm an advocate of wood being the must significant tone changer , but to the average listener again I don't think peoples ears are that attuned to nuances like this !
I believe you have to test the the cap for value , I have metered many caps from the same company and type and they vary sometimes as must as 10 percent , vintage ones 10-30 percent /plus minus
That is a paper in wax cap, like a 50's grey tiger cap.
Try CTS 450G audio taper pots they are easy to find i 250k 500k and 1 meg. These pots have a very smooth transition from 1 to 10
At last a youtuber playing music who actually realises the sound he here's is not the sound we here, I've mentioned this on many videos where people in the comments are saying " this certainly sounds better with that amp or this amp" etc
Hears.. auto correct
Thanks
Tim, I really love that you are doing this. Paper/oil caps DO change the waveform a bit, you can actually see this on a oscilloscope, BUT I’m not sold that many folks actually have the critical hearing ability to really hear the changes but who knows. I know I hear things that others don’t... :-)
I like to work on amps and guitars, capacitors work a lot alike in both. Poly and mica caps are fast switching at higher frequencies. Film and paper/oil caps are actually much slower switching because of their dielectric materials. A lot of designers will put in poly caps for loud hard rock and metal guitar circuits and oil caps for bluesy jazzy guitar stuff. Ceramic caps are kind of in the middle, thus the reason I think they get installed stock in so many guitars. When I’m designing with a tone circuit, i usually work with three things, the pot (250k, 500k or 1meg, audio taper), the capacitor size (I always use oil caps), and the bleed resistor size and position (series, parallel, or none), and usually do a ton of substitution to find out what I like best. I personally find that once I figure out, what I like for a particular setup (pups, bridge and switches) the same combo works as long as I don’t change anything. You can build the same guitar over and over and it will sound the same. Change to a different bridge though and all bets are off. At least for me...
I had to edit this... I read a comment about oil caps being no good because they go bad in amplifiers. That’s ridiculous, in an amplifier you are attacking 30 or 40 year old caps with up to 600 volts! Then blaming the cap for leaking? Come on... You are talking about caps that have absolutely no voltage running through them. They will be good and not change basically forever. This is why so many old tube guys clip out good sprague “bumblebee” and “black beauty” caps and sell them for guitar circuits. They are shite in an amp but could be used till the end of time in a guitar tone circuit... Now, in my mind they aren’t any different than any other cap but that’s not the point. The point is, there is nothing wrong with the installation of a paper/oil cap in a tone circuit.
right on, I figured some of you had more knowledge and info than I! There is certainly a difference in electronics when you start sending tons of power through them vs passive guitars I'm sure!
You, my friend, are full of sh!t. Sorry. If you want to learn more about caps and their cutoff freq, just Google for the equation involved. Hint: nothing in the equation mention "cap type", "dielectric type", "oil type". It's physics. Maths. This is Real world, not unicorn mojo world.
Only that's not paper in oil. But I agree with you on the point you make.
It has more "Zing" with the oily cap.
You forgot about part's tolerances, which the PIO has 20%.
right, I suppose there's less variation in something with higher tolerances, but when I do this sort of stuff I try to strip it down to what's important: "I swapped caps and this is how it sounds," y'know?
but again, tolerance itself does not affect the sound. If a PIO is 20% higher capacitance that the rated value and you like the tone better, then you can get a regular capacitor with 20% higher capacitance.
Good video thanks for the work man good job I'm making a skateboard guitar right now so I thought that was funny you when you first said it was out of some old wood I was like cool thanks man
Love the Ukraine cap guy. Been using Soviet-era surplus caps about 15 years. My primary instrument is a P Bass. I'm on the Tone knob the whole evening and can definitely tell the difference in the usable range. They are superior to Chiclets, which are very binary in their response. Whether they sound different in a blind test is entirely irrelevant. If they help you play better, there's your audible difference right there.
Yes, music is magic.
PIO has sweeter tone, less gritty high. Inherent character of PIO is earlier high freq roll off. You should try paper lacquer capacitor, code MKL MKB. Perhaps your potentiometer is log taper, shouldn't it be linear taper?
Kecap Manis It’s because the values are different. The purpose of a capacitor and what it does is explained well by DylanTalksTone. Watch his video he explains it very well. The values being the same, they will sound exactly the same. Over time the pio fails and it will change the tone since it is not functioning properly.
All things EQUAL, there should NOT be ANY difference in audio output which is simply a result of electrical output. To say otherwise goes against electrical and physics laws. The differences you may here are due to the tolerance differences of each cap which could be anywhere from 1%-40% (20% for one cap and 20% for the other) depending on how precise the manufacturer or seller of EACH wanted to be.
As a side note, get a 5 position rotary switch and swap out the tone pot completely, hook 5 different capacitors to each leg... now you have a clearly definable and consistent value that can be dialed up. Change the cap values to taste.
Clueless.....
I love it man it's all about the story I skated the skateboards back when I was a young man I'm 54 now had to quit a few years back first guitar built its ghetto fabulous you got skills you want to see it I'm making a video about it on my channel
Are the pots Audio Taper? It didn't show a big difference in the 100% to 25%.
Perhaps it's the added up total of all the parts in the end, not just one.
I think paper in oil caps are great!! Oh.... Wait a minute.... That may be because I make my own! Ha ha!
Definitely prefer the paper much clearer tone
I heard a steep drop on the last one too so you’re not too deaf... the capacitor in my guitar is soldered to the left end lug (looking at it from the top with the lugs pointing up) and the pickup looks like it was soldered to the middle one (that’s why I opened it up). Does that matter? Or ...must..the capacitor be connected to the middle lug like in most diagrams? I’m waiting to solder it back together so i can play it again so need some help.
I would assume the lug to which the capacitor is soldered to would effect the rate to which it effects things? I'm honestly not sure about that. I've also seen them soldered to the third lug but I've never messed around with that myself or know why. In general, when working with someone else's electronics design, I would put it back exactly as it was unless I really understand what's going on and am making conscious changes.
@@NewPerspectivesMusic yes I figured out enough at the end to realize there may be a reason why it was the opposite way round so I've soldered it back the way it was and it sounds ok. Thanks for the reply.
I'd be looking for a pot with a smoother taper. Even with headphones, it's hard to hear much change except for the drop off into darkness.
Caps make a big difference in amps, like Sprague orange drops vs Mallory 150s.
Yup, way more then in guitars.
Boyz
Capacitors have tolerances.
A little difference in value can easily be heard.
For example
.015uF at +15% is .017uF
.022uF at -15% is .018uF
As long as you do not compare capacitors with the same MESURED value, your test is wrong.
*measured :)
After 40 years building audio electronics. I have come to know that quality parts are expensive but they outlast cheap parts! Do they sound better, not when the cheap parts are new. But as things age, the higher quality parts will still be within tolerance years down the road. So, with that in mind, they will function and sound better as time marches on. 1 last point, the old Vitamin Q, Sangamo, and others. That used metal and glass bodies for their caps will last for decades. They do not dry out! I have used some that are 65+ years old. Plus, in my opinion, they are often superior to new "boutique" manufactured caps. Because manufacturers are not allowed to use the same chemicals that were used in 1940'-60's. Coupling caps in a tube amplifier will make a difference and not subtle. Measurements are always a good approach don't trust your ears.
I think the type and quality of the pots has far more affect in the tonal spectrum.
Keep doing what you do brother.
Mr. Fister yes, I use a Yamaha Pacifica311H with a P90 and a Humbucker, a split pot and a Mylar cap. I open the guitar and see the split pot with 250 k...I swap it to a normal pot with 500k and the sun is shining. I Test Mustard, orange drops and Mylar caps...in my ear it is a good sound without a splitpot and I am happy with it. I don’t need split Humbuckersound. But why put Yamaha little Alpha pots in it?🙈💥🎸😎🎼👍
Mini pots in cheap guitars are no different than CTS or Bourne's potentiometers. In fact, if you use a split pot, its footprint is identical as one of those "cheapos". Also, you'll find mini pots in high end gear like amps and pedals.
Buttered Biskit yes!!!! Imagine how expensive pedals would be if they filled them with paper-in-oil caps and fancy pots 🤯. Cheap stuff, if in spec, is fine
Pretty guitar btw
What is the value of that Capacitor
I’m pretty certain that those Russian caps that you show & installed into your guitar aren’t PIO style capacitors!
I’m trying to find information on caps for guitar amplifiers. A lot on RUclips about caps for guitars but not a lot for amps. I’m surprised guitarists would be upset about cap prices when they’re only going to be using one or two, after buying expensive tone wood and boutique pedals
Wouldn’t an EQ pedal be easier and more impactful on tone, or just tweaking the tone on the amp?
That said, I’m trying to learn why I paid more for fancy caps in my amp, and once I do maybe I’ll have a new obsession
In the quest for "better tone" I think some people prefer to spend money than practice :) I agree that off the instrument is the best place to make electric guitar tone changes, but it is nice to have another quick color at your fingertips. A lot of my guitars have tone drop switcheds with several capacitors instead of one and a knob. some of them have no caps at all, just a volume knob :)
"tone snobs" 🤣
A beautiful guitar. PIO caps tend to round off the highs and emphasize the lower mids vs polyester caps
"This guitar goes to 396*." That's one more increment of 36*."
I fixed the tone cap issue; I disconnected it.
lol That is def a thing!
Try a no load pot
What about the mallory 150 .1uf for strats what better NOS K42Y .1uf or mallory 150 .1uf ?? For a 64 strat sound
Cap is a cap, don't matter what it's made out of. It's value is what matters. You have to take into account tolerance. Signal NEVER passes thru a cap, it can't, the two leads are not connected together, they charge and discharge so what they are made of doesn't matter. A 30 cent mylar cap sounds exactly like a 100 dollar bumblebee cap if they are exactly the same value.