German POWs in the Soviet Union
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- Опубликовано: 19 май 2024
- Part of Eastern Front Week on WW2TV
With Susan Grunewald
German POWs in the Soviet Union
POW and Internment Camps
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Susan Grunewald is a Digital History Postdoctoral Fellow at the University of Pittsburgh World History Center. She received her Ph.D. in History from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh, PA USA in May 2019. susangrunewald.com/
Susaan's forthcoming book:
From Incarceration to Repatriation
www.cornellpress.cornell.edu/...
Today Susan will talk about German prisoners of war (POWs) in the Soviet Union from 1941 to 1956. Exploring the economic, political, and legal considerations for their long-lasting detainment after the end of the war. She will talk about her use of the Geographic Information System (GIS) mapping through the program ArcGIS, and how she has mapped the locations of the POW camps across the entire Soviet Union to support her claim that the POWs were initially held for economic considerations.
Other WW2TV Shows about Prisoners of War / Concentration Camps
Prisoners of the Empire - Inside Japanese POW Camps • Prisoners of the Empir...
The Sobibor Uprising - Breakout from a Death Camp • The Sobibor Uprising -...
Task Force Baum - The Secret Raid on a POW Camp - March 1945 • Task Force Baum - Patt...
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Развлечения
While a student in Germany in the 70’s I worked the summer with a guy who was captured in Stalingrad. He was in the Luftwaffe, but not an aircrew, a mechanic I think. He was one of 10,000 in his POW camp, but less than 900 came home ten years later. He helped rebuild Stalingrad after the war. He was a small thin man, probably why he survived. Could chug a bottle of beer faster than you could pour it out. He worked hard everyday for barely more than minimum wage at Ramstein Air Base. He loved Americans and wanted to retire in Texas.
Lol yeah the Soviets wouldn’t have starved them if there was more food 😂😂😂😂 This “expert” is in la la land
@@Ira88881 There were plenty of former Allgemeine SS. They created a postwar organization to benefit former SS soldiers and their families. It’s amazing how special you are. Such a big boy!
@@recessional5560 Please show up YOUR book...oh, none?
The Russians didn't invite them. The came to destroy The Soviet Union.
You'd think that if he was _Luftwaffe_ he could have gotten a ride out..................
My great Uncle had the unfortunate name Adolf Heidrich and was captured in Koenigsburg in 1945 and repatriated in 1954. He rebuilt Kiev during his enslavement. They would line up naked once a week, a nurse would pinch their butt for fat. If there was a pinch, they could still work. When He was told he was free, he protested “my work here is not finished”! They said, no you had better go home now. He returned, knocked on the door and said “Happy birthday Mutter” to his surprised wife.
Thanks for sharing this story!
Intresting how he protested being freed, reminds me of the symbolic meaning of the scene in 'A bridge over the river Kwai' where the officer tries to stop the destruction of the bridge they built.
We all search for a meaning of being part of something greater than ourselfs, to build something that lasts beyond your own life feels very meaningful for sure.
Were they allowed to send letters home during their enslavement?
My grandmother’s brother in law never came back from Stalingrad, they did not know for sure that he was dead until 1953 when one of his comrades got released and came home and told the family that he was killed during the fighting. I will watch this episode tomorrow.
He dead
My Uncle Jack Keddy was a paratrooper in Operation Market Garden. He took a bullet in the leg and became a POW of the Germans till the wars end a year later. He survived the camp but never said much to me or his family.
A great man .
My father in law was in the Hungarian army and captured by the Russians during the battle of Budapest. He was sent to POW camp in the Ukraine and wasn't released until 1947
Thanks for sharing. What a difficult situation he survived I'm sure. Glad he made it home.
@@davidlavigne207 great stories about being captured inside buda castle and a Russian soldier taking his watch but not bothering to search him when he had a pistol and grenade in his pockets. He did ditch those tho as they were marched off which was a wise move 😁
@@davidlavigne207, this is the wrong attitude. Maybe, in your opinion, criminals in prison are also experiencing a difficult situation? A few years in the camp for those who served in the army of the Third Reich and its allies is not a difficult situation, but a just punishment.
Moreover, a very minor light punishment - he was given only 2 years, in 47 he was already at home. This is a very merciful punishment.
Какую тяжёлую ситуацию он пережил? Он всего лишь понёс заслуженное наказание. Может быть, по-вашему, преступники в тюрьме тоже переживают тяжёлую ситуацию?
Это неправильное отношение. Несколько лет в лагере для тех, кто служил в армии третьего рейха и его союзников - это не тяжёлая ситуация, а справедливое наказание.
Причём очень незначительное лёгкое наказание - всего 2 года ему дали, в 47 году уже был дома. Это очень милосердное наказание.
@@DmitryTihomirow Agreed but it's not to be forgotten that the Third R hanged several men who refused to report for c onscription . Serving in the army. esp towards the end of the war was no an option that could be avoided by working in a hospital or some such.
So what?
My uncle who was captured in 1944 in Romania, was sent to a prison camp in Tiflus, Soviet Georgia. Today known as Tbilisi, he died in February 1945 from typhus. A survivor of the camp would later write my aunt and mail her a map to the best of his memory where my uncle was buried. He also added that everyone would listen to his stories of his travels to North and South America before the war.
By far the best presentation of this week's series. Easier topic to discuss than some of the earlier ones, but Susan's extensive research and mapping was quite impressive. Her presentation dispelled a lot of common myths about Siberia. Disturbing to note that some POWs were not released until 1955. How many perished during the 10 years after the war would be an interesting number. Excellent presentation--I'm glad she built her presentation so that questions could be asked afterwards. Thanks Susan! Thanks Paul--I hope you find another topic to bring her back she is excellent!!!!
The Sovjetunion officially uphold the status of war with Germany until 1955!
As long as there is war with another country, POWs can legaly hold in captivity.
But in reality, "Germany" in 1955 didn't exist as a state for already 6 years. First there were the allied occupation zones, then West- and East Germany.
Very eye opening presentation. My grandfather was a POW from May 1945 to October 1946 when he died. The Russian death certificate stated "atrophy" as the cause of death.
I came to the U.S. in 1966 but still have family in Germany. Sometime in the early 2000's they received documents about what happened to my grandfather. He had a leg injury when he was captured for which he received treatment in a hospital(this surprised me). After he recovered from his injury he was sent to camp 147 (is there a map with camp number locations available ?).
Fantastic show, really interesting. Great research Susan and well presented too. Yes, please do come back for another interesting show.
Today’s show definitely did not disappoint! Excellent presentation by Susan👍🏽
As always, Woody, a great presentation shining a light on another under-reported area of the war.Thank you and I am sorry I missed it.
What a treat! I only wish I could have been present for the livestream, but unfortunately had to work. I am burning with questions, and one comes to mind. I would have liked to ask Dr. Grunewald if treatment of the POWs varied based upon what skillsets they brought to the table. Did those with technical abilities such as engineers, managers, electricians, plumbers, masons, miners, mechanics etc. receive better treatment and rations as opposed to unskilled laborers? I have reached out to her through her website and am hopeful for a response. I don't believe I have ever seen such a brilliant approach to research. It is an almost forensic analysis of the raw data of her sources to uncover new truths that is revolutionary. We must have her back when her book is published. I was enthralled with her mastery of the work. Well done WW2TV!!
Fully agree with you David, amazing presentation and myth shattering. I´ve a question too. Is there evidence that POW´s skilled in handcraft where deliberately held longer in captivity? Would´ve made sense.
@@andreasfiege8388 Here is the answer I received from Dr. Grunewald when I posed the question to her directly through her website:
Dear David,
"I'm glad you liked the presentation. Thank you very much for taking the time to ask me the question. You are correct, it was very common for the POWs to be used based on their previous experience. There was even a directive from Stalin himself telling NKVD officials to use POWs based on their skills. In addition to taking prisoner demographic information, Soviet authorities took note of the professions of their captives. They weren't always used according to their skills, but there are a handful of additional POW memoirs that discuss mechanics working on machines in machine shops, for example, or those with certain language skills being used to read instructions of looted technology that the Soviets didn't understand. Let me know if you have any other questions. Best wishes, Susan."
I recommend visiting her website as she has many of the maps and sources available for public viewing. I am sure she will be as gracious to you as well if you contact her. Thanks for the reply Andreas.
Thanks David for sharing the answer with me. Have a nice day.
Amazing work Susan, and thank you Paul for bringing such great speakers to us.
That is a pretty crazy photo of the two prisoners being moved along by village women with their pointed sticks. I'm pretty sure that just out of camera range are a couple Soviet soldiers with something stronger than a couple of sticks.
Not necessarily, you are basically illiterate and deep in land that hates you, prob beaten up from fighting.
I wouldn't really stress over bunch of german pow being almost unguarded.
My brother in law was the lieutenant in the German army. He was the leader of a machine company and was captured in the battle near Oreal whey his platoon was overrun. He was shipped off to Archangel in the arctic to one of the camps in the area. The Russians immediately asked for soldiers with skills. He said that he was a cook. I do not know how much he knew about this but he figured that the chance of survival was greater if you worked in the kitchen. He came back to Germany in the 50s and had a hard time returning to school because of his age. He eventually became a business person. I received all this information from my other German brother in law who was substantially younger then his brother and was born in Koblence on the Rhine in a bomb shelter in 1944.
An absolutely amazing presentation! Dr. Grunewald's incredible research and ground breaking use of Google maps to locate German POWs creates a whole new view of this aspect of World War 2 history. I hope other historians take Dr. Grunwald's lead to take a new look at other aspects of history. Once again WW2TV brings a new view of history to the world.
Thank you Dr. Grunewald for an engaging and enlightening presentation. I learned a lot.
I'm thrilled that you are using techniques similar to those pioneered in public health and health services research going all the way back to Dr. Snow on Broad Street! The challenge in the context of history is, of course, accurate and objective data to plug into models. I think you are really on to something that will deepen our understanding (where it can be applied).
Another great episode with a fascinating presentation by Dr Grunewald. Well done!
Many thanks!
Fascinating-always wondered if Jozef Bauer's book "As Far As My Feet Will Carry Me" was true (Bauer as a German POW claimed to be held at a lead mine in Far Eastern Siberia. He claimed to have walked over 4000 miles after escaping, and crossed into Iran. Not only was his story fantsatic, beut he describes crossing the Lena River (impossible without a boat). Of course, provided you avoided towns, you could walk across most of siberia without seeing a soul.
The Soviet officer who just wandered off from his duties to pursue him makes me doubt how true his story is.
Simply incredible and impressive ! Thank you so much!
Great presentation,well done Susan,very informative.👍
I have come to this video only now, and I find it breathtaking. I grew up in the 1970ies and 1980ies, and it was always clear in every WW2 documentary, that all German POWs in the USSR were in Siberia. Just the film images of German captives marching off in the snow after the capitulation at Stalingrad: it was always understood that they went directly to Siberia. Thank you so much for this eye-opening presentation, Peter(sorry for any typo, didn't have my glasses at hand)
Great presentation, both for subject matter and discussion of techniques. Very interesting how Siberia misconception was from WW1 practice
What an incredible presentation! This is what makes WW2TV so great. New scholarship methods, young historians, fresh perspectives, myth busting. Thank you so much.
very interesting show...well presented and researched. Hope to see Susan back on ww2tv!
I hope so too!
Great informative show - Thank you
Brilliant I love all stuff about the war and what went on behind the scenes other than just battle's
When I started to watch I thought its not my cup of tea, but stuck with it and it ended up being fascinating, I would like to know more on the 6th army’s fate after the mentioning of the death rates and relation to fact they were basically more than half dead at the time of surrender.
Many young Germans in Stalingrad would go to sleep at night and never wake up. Doctors were brought in to figure out what was happening. Their verdict was "malnutrition".
If you read a day in the life of Ivan Denisovic it clearly shows the inmates seperated in to groups who compete against each other in the work camp for extra food rations. Which was essentially an extra bowl of gruel. The English version of the movie is fantastic. It gives you a great insight as to how the men lived and wotked.
What’s the movie called
Great job. I enjoyed the video talk and learned many things.
Excellent presentation 👍⭐️
Well now, wasn't Susan flipping brilliant? Well done both. A great episode.
Great episode & guest. Yet again.
Great episode! Really liked this presentation :)
Hello folks. Another outstanding presentation. Lots to learn here.
Great presentation. More evidence that history is a dynamic field and there are any number of historical assumptions that we think we know but it turns out we don’t.
Wow, just catching up on this now and what an eye opening show. Completely blows the idea of all prisoners being worked to death in Siberia. I loved the the comment about how the Russians believed the buildings by German prisoners were of better quality, brilliant.
Fantastic presentation by Susan. Excellent detail and research. Thank you. Looking forward to Susan's next visit
THANKS FOR SHARING.
Fantastic and very informative presentation that shreds a lot of long held beliefs about German POWs in Russia.If you have even the slightest interest in #WW2 you really need to watch this.
On one of my trips to the Urals to visit a Russian church I was given a local newspaper with an article how local people were taking care of graves of PWs.
Excellent discussion. Thanks, I had two uncles do POW time in the USSR, Karl and Herbert.
Amazing work Dr Grunewald has here! I see the hand of Fear of Siberia that Goebbels pushed (among others) played it's role in the minds of Germans in WW2 post-Stalingrad to the end of the war. Myth-busting and great show!
Dont usually get to watch these on the "day of". WOW! So glad I did!
My grandfather was captured by the Americans and handed to the French. He was in captivity for 5 years after the war. He was in a POW camp for the first year and then worked on a farm. Similar to what the Soviet Union done.
Great stuff as always 👍
When people say ‘what is there new to learn about WW2?’ I answer ‘there is still a massive amount we don’t know or we think we know but we are wrong’
This is one example as was said we have an idea that every POW ended up in Siberia. In reality they were more likely to be in the west of the USSR where the reconstruction was most needed.
I wonder how many of those who returned to W Germany post WW2 were interviewed by Western intelligence agencies about the USSR and their experiences.
Very interesting. Thank you!
Incredible research!!!!
I think you have great guests and ask really good questions. An American fan .
One of my uncles, a journalist/correspondent was living in Moskou during the 2nd world war. He knows from experience how mindblowing enormous the damage was done to Russia. Apart from the human casualties, estimated from 20 to 30 million (apart from the killed Russian prisoners soldiers) the material damage was enormous. It took a lot of time and manpower to repair all that and the Russians argued very simple and straightforward: you Germans caused all this, you clean it up’.
The German POWs in the US were paid for their labor, by the farmers who used them. Many of them emigrated to the US after the war. Every one of them, bar none, speak very well of their treatment while captive. They had access to PXs and had the right to buy stuff at the same prices the American servicemen. I am very proud of the treatment of these people and the length our government went to make sure that the Geneva conventions were observed.
The USA is the only country that was not affected as a result of the 2nd World War, but, on the contrary, incredibly enriched as a result of it.
And in the USSR, as a result of the war, there was terrible devastation, the population was starving, so German prisoners of war in the USSR could not have the same conditions as in the USA.
The Germans didn't destroy anything in the USA. Why was it necessary to send German prisoners of war to the United States? They could have been left in West Germany.
But in the USSR they destroyed everything, so they had to help rebuild.
США - единственная страна, не пострадавшая в результате 2мв, а, наоборот, невероятно обогатившаяся в её итоге.
А в СССР в результате войны была страшная разруха, население голодало, поэтому немецкие военнопленные в СССР не могли иметь те же условия, что в США.
Немцы в США ничего не разрушили. Зачем было нужно отправлять немецких военнопленных в США? Их можно было оставить в западной Германии.
А вот в СССР немцы всё разрушили, поэтому они должны были помогать восстанавливать.
German POWs were sent to the USA during the war and not after it. Main reason was they could easily be guarded and fed in USA.
Well yeah the US wasn’t invaded and didn’t have bombs dropped on their cities by the Germans. The US didn’t have their citizens forced to walk through minefields to clear them or have food, water and clothing ripped from them
@@LarryDaLobstah, уou are right, the West has no idea how the population of the USSR lived during the war and after the war. Therefore, in almost all the comments here, people accuse the USSR that German prisoners were mistreated, poorly fed, and many prisoners of war died. But the captured Germans in the USSR were fed better than Soviet children were fed at that time. The prisoners' rations included meat, eggs, and butter. But many Soviet children did not see such products during the war and after the war. My mother was born in 1937 in the village and she told me that at that time there was such a famine that they cooked soup from nettles and quinoa, collected frozen potatoes and beets in the field. The men were at the front, and after the war the wounded and crippled returned. Women and teenagers had to plow. There were few tractors, because all tractor factories produced tanks. If there were tractors, then women and teenagers plowed on tractors. And if there were no tractors, then, as in ancient times, with the help of a plow, into which women themselves were harnessed. Two women were pulling a plow, and a third woman (or teenager) was plowing, leaning on the handles of the plow. There were no horses, because they were all taken to the front.
If there were cattle - cows, bulls, then it was easier - a cow or a bull was harnessed to the plow. But there were practically no livestock in the territories liberated from the occupation, because the occupiers stole all the livestock (cows, goats, sheep, pigs) to Germany. Poultry (chickens, geese, ducks, turkeys) were also sent to Germany. Even the earth was sent - chernozem: the upper fertile layer was cut off and loaded into wagons.
In 1944, the government of the USSR decided to overtake part of the cattle from the eastern regions to the European part of the country in order to restore the number of cattle in the liberated territories. Thousands of cattle from Kazakhstan were driven under their own power to Ukraine to help the Donbass liberated from the Nazis. And since the men were at the front, this hard and responsible work - to drive a huge herd of cattle across the steppes, forests and rivers for thousands of kilometers to the west was entrusted to Kazakh teenagers, in fact, almost children. And they coped with this responsible task, were not afraid, did not lose a single cow. It was a real feat.
In the 1980s, a feature film "The Long Milky Way" ("Долгий млечный путь") was made about this grandiose heroic humanitarian operation at the Kazakhfilm film Studio. A very good movie.
Everyone who criticizes the USSR here for the bad attitude towards the captured Germans should watch Soviet films about the war, both documentary and artistic, in order to understand what a terrible war it was, how hard people lived, what feats they performed not only at the front, but even in the rear - labor feats, as well so that everyone knows and does not forget what crimes were committed by the Nazis.
@@LarryDaLobstah, вы правы, на западе не представляют как жило население СССР во время войны и после войны. Поэтому здесь почти во всех комментариях люди обвиняют СССР в том, что с пленными немцами плохо обращались, плохо кормили, много военнопленных погибло. Но пленных немцев в СССР кормили лучше, чем в то время питались советские дети. В паёк военнопленных входило мясо, яйца, масло. А многие советские дети во время войны и после войны таких продуктов и не видели. Моя мама родилась в 1937 году в деревне и она рассказывала, что в то время был такой голод, что они варили суп из крапивы и лебеды, собирали в поле мороженую картошку и свёклу. Мужчины были на фронте, а после войны вернулись раненые и калеки. Пахать приходилось женщинам и подросткам. Тракторов было мало, потому что все тракторные заводы выпускали танки. Если были трактора, то женщины и подростки пахали на тракторах. А если тракторов не было, то, как в древние века, с помощью плуга, в который впрягались сами женщины. Две женщины тащили плуг, а третья женщина (или подросток) пахала, налегая на рукоятки плуга. Лошадей не было, потому что их всех забрали на фронт.
Если была скотина - коровы, быки, то было легче - в плуг впрягали корову или быка. Но на территориях, освобождённых от оккупации, скотины практически не было, ведь оккупанты угоняли всю скотину (коров, коз, овец, свиней) в Германию. Отправляли в Германию и птицу (кур, гусей, уток, индюков). Даже землю отправляли - чернозём: срезали верхний плодородный слой и загружали в вагоны.
В 1944 году правительство СССР приняло решение перегнать часть скота из восточных районов в европейскую часть страны, чтоб восстановить поголовье крупного рогатого скота на освобождённых территориях. Тысячи голов скота из Казахстана перегонялись своим ходом на Украину в помощь освобождённому от фашистов Донбассу.
А поскольку мужчины были на фронте, эта тяжелая и ответственная работа - перегнать огромное стадо крупного рогатого скота через степи, леса и реки за тысячи километров на запад была поручена казахским подросткам, по сути, почти детям. И они справились с этой ответственной задачей, не испугались, не потеряли ни одной коровы. Это был настоящий подвиг.
В 1980-х годах об этой грандиозной героической гуманитарной операции на киностудии "Казахфильм" был снят художественный фильм "Долгий млечный путь". Очень хороший фильм.
Всем, кто здесь критикует СССР за плохое отношение к пленным немцам, надо смотреть советские фильмы о войне - и документальные, и художественные, чтоб понимать, какая страшная это была война, как тяжело жили люди, какие подвиги они совершали не только на фронте, но даже в тылу - трудовые подвиги, а так же, чтоб все знали и не забывали, какие преступления были совершены нацистами.
I must admit that I was surprised that there were no POW camps in Siberia. It makes total sense why not, they were where the work required them to be; but it's not what I was taught in college. And I was a history minor. Great show. Can't wait to watch more on this channel.
A bit late reply for you, but there were definitely Gulags in Syria, but very little of the German POW were sent there.
Enlightening!
Alexander Solzhenitsyn was a artillery officer and while in Prussia fighting made comment about Stalin and got 8 years It was hard in begging but he said he finagled a decent job thus not suffering nearly as bad as most other Soviet citizens. But no picnic for sure
His expose of Gulag System was very important but put in exile in early seventies
A great courageous man no doubt
..
Still trying to catch up missed presentations due to holiday. Watching Susan Grunewald’s stream, an excellent presentation for me the best of the week. Destroyed my myth of thinking German POWs were held in Siberia. I found this an enthralling stream, thanks to Paul and Susan.
Excellent show! I think it was in some Tom Clancy novel where a character is discussing the Vlasti's preoccupation with German workmanship and that the dachas outside of Moscow for the party elite were done by German POW's. Most Americans are surprised to learn that effects of the war continued well beyond V-J Day. The fact that Britain still had rationing into the 1950's would astound people. It's been said that the 2nd World War had one winner (USA), one villain (Germany) and one hero (Great Britain).
why was the uk a hero? maybe in british schools, everywhere else they fled the european continent and didnt come back until the americans lead the way and provided the equipment and food to supply their army. Soviet blood and american manufacturing won the war while the uk ran
@@420bengalfan
'maybe in british schools', 'the uk ran away'
Tell us, what nations' schools did you learn your history, since it sounds rather narrow-minded and immature. The USA didn't have a monopoly on manufacturing. For example, in 1940 the UK was outproducing Germany in aircraft such that during the Battle of Britain it was shortage of pilots that was the potential problem, not aircraft. The RAF was able to replace it's aircraft losses much better than the Luftwaffe was. And Soviet manufacturing outshone their German adversaries once their factories were up and running East of the Urals.
The Americans, with all their economic and material advantages had problems on D-Day, despite the fact that the Allies spent 2 years planning. This shows that an Allied landing in France was no picnic. And the UK had a lot on its plate between Dunkirk and D-Day, it's not like they were sat around doing nothing. British forces returned to the continent twice prior to D-Day, the first being being an unsuccessful raid at Dieppe along with the Canadians (showing how difficult a landing in France would be) and the Italian Campaign, since Italy is in Continental Europe. Below is just some of the campaigns, fronts, efforts and events related to the European, so is incomplete and doesn't include either actions prior to Dunkirk or the war in Asia. Sure, plenty of other countries had their hands full, but as I said, Britain didn't just "run away" and then do sod all for the next 4 years. I think you're being rather disingenuous.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Britain
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistance_during_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_campaign
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Mediterranean
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(World_War_II)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bombing_of_Mandatory_Palestine_in_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Bahrain_in_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Iraqi_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_African_campaign_(World_War_II)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria%E2%80%93Lebanon_campaign
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_convoys_of_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Soviet_invasion_of_Iran
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_invasion_of_Sicily
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_invasion_of_Italy
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodecanese_campaign
@@johndoe6298 tldr
@@420bengalfan bollocks. The Americans did what they always do. Sit on their hands and let others do their fighting. Ukraine is a case in point. America doesn’t ever do anything unless there’s money in it for them. The real winners of WWII was Russia and yes the British were the heros’ alongside the Russians. The Americans provided the BS,
great video..Italy in 1992 received from Russia a database of POW. Numbers were 64500 POW, 38000 death in lagers, 22000 repatriated ( included 12k previously detained by Nazi, rest unclear ). Deaths during transfers to prisons estimated in 22K not accounted for. Source M.T Giusti LA MEMORIALISTICA SULLA PRIGIONIA IN RUSSIA
The German POWs would have known they were not in Siberia, and would have had some reasonable understanding of where they in fact were, for the simple reason that at least some of them would have had the skill and interest to estimate it from the transportation. They would have been able to monitor, measure and calculate the overall direction and distance of their transport, and the result would have been very different for Siberia vs. coal fields 300KM southeast of Moscow.
Thanks!
I've read that, like, 30% of the Soviet Union was absolutely, completly destroyed in WWII and that they lost, at least, 20,000,000 people. This must be taken into account. I am not an apologist, just an avid student of that war.
Congratulations to the lady for saying 'football'. Very thoughtful and considerate.
Very interesting topic. Appears her book hasn't been published yet (as of 4 Oct 2023) and her PhD thesis is presently under embargo, so will have to wait to dig into things. At first the Germans not being sent to Siberia appears to be a revelation, but thinking about it is it such a significant difference? It's kind of like, 'Sure extended captivity under Stalin is dreadful, but not as dreadful as extended captivity under Stalin _in Siberia_ .'
Though she asserts the USSR adhered to Geneva re food, clothing, and the like, the Geneva Convention covers far more than that. They're supposed to be paid for their work, and that work cannot be war related such as fortifications, munitions, etc. Religious needs, intellectual diversions, and sport facilities must be provided. POW shelter must be similar to that provided to one's own military at base came (not temp/field camp). The seriously injured and ill must be returned home w/o undue delay at peace. Notification of death in captivity must be sent. The Allies granting themselves 2.5 years after hostilities ceased to hold POWs for work isn't provided for by Geneva. I get there are logistical difficulties, yet the US was able to repatriate about 6.5 million Asians from 30 September 1945 to 31 December 1948 plus hundreds of thousands of European, Australian, and American civilians and POWs in addition to shipping American military personnel home.
Though not a topic of the talk, there is still relevance to the prolonged holding of Japanese POWs by the USSR that was unjustified based on the grounds given to hold Germans and Stalin's reneging of Article 9
of the Potsdam Declaration, which stipulated that the 'Japanese
military
forces, after
being completely disarmed, shall
be permitted to return to their
homes with the opportunity to lead peaceful and productive lives.' Japan didn't invade the USSR; there is no legitimate claim of damage done to it. The Red Army rolled over the IJA / Kwangtung Army, suffering few casualties. And the two nations were only at war from 7 Aug to 2 Sep 1945. The USSR was no China or Philippines, two countries devasted by Japan yet neither held hundreds of thousands of Japanese to perform labour. Many Japanese civilian noncombatants in Manchuria, northern Korea, Kuril Islands, and Sakhalin were swept up as well by the Soviets. For more than two years the Soviets impeded Japanese repatriation by making all kinds of demands on the US. An agreement was reached on 19 December 1947. From June 1948 onwards, the Soviets did not fulfil their 50k monthly quota as specified in the agreement (MacArthur had offered to transport 360k per month), in spite of MacArthur's repeated protests; they suspended repatriation for periods of several months without any apparent justification. Interrogation of Japanese repatriates revealed forced labour and communist indoctrination in political camps. In the December '47 agreement, the Soviets guaranteed to return all Japanese surrendered military personnel and all Japanese civilians who desired to come back to Japan. This did not happen. Most of those 600k+ Japanese held by the Soviets from late '45 to early '56 were in Siberia and the Russian Far East, though some were transported west to Ukraine. Why? Sherzod Muminov writes in _Eleven Winters of Discontent_ on 23 August 1945 Stalin ordered the NKVD to 'select up to 500,000 Japanese
. . . physically fit to work in the conditions of the Far East and Siberia'
and transport them to the Soviet Union. This order took even Soviet
officials by surprise, since only a week earlier,
on 16 August, the Soviet government
had ruled out taking any surrendered Japanese
to the USSR.
Turning historical perceptions upside down is becoming a habit on WW2TV. Gives a completely new perspective on German POW's in the Soviet Union. Great presentation.
This was the first time that I have come accross anyone (apart from me) on RUclips who knows the diffrence between GULag and GUPVI. I have known quite a bit about German POWs in the USSR before. However, the mapping work done by Ms. Grunwald is stupendous. It would be great if there were more historians that understand the value of relying on statistical analysis in addtion to textual narrative.
Being a great fan of the French Annales School, I try to apply numerical fact checking to broad statements.
Similar examples:
* Lend-lease saved the USSR from total collapse before the end of 1941.
Facts: lend-lease shipments in 1941 ammounted to about 365,000 tons (2.1% of the total 1941-1945). By a rough calculation that is enough materiel to operate a Soviet Front (army group) for about 60 days. In the period June 22, 1941 - December 31, 1941 the Red Army operated 10 Fronts. So the Red Army consumed about 30x the materiel supplied by lend-lease during this period, lend-lease supplied about 3% during this time.
* Onslaught by the "Asiatic Hordes" (troops transferred from Siberia) saved the USSR in 1941 and was the reason for the success of the Moscow counter-offensive in Decmeber 1941.
Facts: A total of 28 divisions (18 rifle, 1 mountain rifle, 3 tank, 3 mechanized, 2 mountain cavalry, 1 unknown type) were transferred from the Trans-Baikal Military Region (Siberia) in 1941. In fact this military region showed continous growth from a few hundred thousand in 1941 to about a million in 1945 when it made up 2/3-s of the force employed by Vassilevsky in the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation. Of those transferred. two rifle divisions were added to the complement of the Western Front which excuted the counter offensive with about 80 divisions. The previous losses were actually replaced by new mobilizations in Russia, Kazakstan (for example the famous Panfilov Division), Kirgizistan, Georgia, Armenia, etc. Among its other failures, German intelligence completely underestamated Soviet mobilization capability. The door was kicked in, but clearly the whole structure was not so corrupt as to collapse ( to refer to what Hitler said on the eve of Barbarossa).
* The Russian winter stopped the Germans.
The following facts are not definitive, but I think indicative: analyzing the Wehrmacht casualty statistics of Rüdiger Overmans, one sees that in the period June 1941-June 1944 German casualties are about the same for the winter (October-March) and Summer (April-September) months during this period (there is a spike December 1942-January 1943, should be obvious to most why). I stopped at June 1944 becasue Overmans' data is for total casualties, but in the cited period German casualties were almost exclusively on the Eastern Front.
Lady, you are a bright light and a breath of fresh air. Flame on. Love from Cape Town SA
Interesting and informative. Excellent time consuming research project. Historians did a very good job presenting actual facts from fiction. Good idea having prisoners assist with reconstruction of decimated cities/rail ways/farms and the likes. Food/medical supplies and the likes. Were in short supply during and after the war.
Years ago in my youth, 1970's, I knew the daughter of a German prisoner of war. I showed an interest in his experiences, he was taken prisoner after Stalingrad if memory serves.
The description of his treatment at the hands of the Russians bore no resemblance to the Geneva Convention. Its easy to contradict the recollections of people who experienced the treatment at first hand when they are no longer with us.
I suppose the Red Army and the NKVD were good guys really....
@@datruth66392 if I where to repeat his recollections RUclips would delete it.
Similar behaviour to that as used on October 7.
Absolutely appalling degenerate sadism...
Thanks Susan and Paul
This makes so much sense for why and where the POWs were kept so long - needed for labor/rebuilding in population centers vs. punishment in Siberia. The Soviets could just not afford to keep the POWs in the hinterlands for the sake of punishment. Excellent presentation. Thank you.
It is estimated that at least 3.3 million Soviet POWs died in Nazi custody, out of 5.7 million. This figure represents a total of 57% of all Soviet POWs and it may be contrasted with 8,300 out of 231,000 British and U.S. prisoners, or 3.6%. About 5% of the Soviet prisoners who died were Jews.
Groundbreaking research and myth busting by Susan Grunewald. Mind is spinning at the arguements presented. Sadly, the myth of German POWs in Siberia is transfixed in Western people's minds & will take a long time to die, if the Hollywood trope is still being used (did not expect the Muppets film reference). Bring her back again please.
Cracking Watch!
I wonder what the experience of the German POWs in Central Asia was like. I notice there is a big cluster near Tashkent and Tajikistan.
Not to mention my grandmother remembered in Tennessee the German POWS That were used in Farming. She remember that they were Hard working and after the war some wanted to become AMERICANS
I am no Nazi lover but I found this offensive-slavery is slavery but the presenter seemed to be OK with it….
Have you heard what the Germans did to Red Army POWs in ww2 ? Compared to that these guys got off lightly
Then you missed the point I think. This was about the camps, where they were and the purpose. It wasn't about the morality of the program
@@mathewkelly9968 Germans doing horrible things to Russian conscripts doesn't make it ok for Russians to do horrible things to German conscripts.
She sounds like an apologist for the Commies.
@@WW2TV yes it was because it excused it because it was "needed" i think you are missing the point
Dr. Zhivago basically stated in the vast Siberian emptiness. It's synonymous with suffering in Russia.
I listened to a recent biography of a German soldier in WW2 where he recounted a train full of Russian prisoners being left on a siding until all them died.
My wife's Opa was 6th Army didn't return to Germany until 53. He was missing 3 fingers from frost bite.
This would seem to bear out von Luck's accounts of being a prisoner
An incredible explanation… what happened to all those soldiers … they never come back???
I had a German guy work for me his father and two uncles were captured by the Russians his father’s civilian trade was butcher and his two uncles were carpenters before the war . He laughed said thank goodness the Russians let his father go in the 1950s said probably they had no need for a butcher but his uncles never returned said probably because they needed carpenters .
In the 60's, on manoeuvres in Germany, a day off and four of us walking back to our encampment, we were picked up by a passing motorist and his wife, he offered to drop us off at the 'Wood' where our tents were located. He said he had been a prisoner of war by the Russians, and offered to take us home for some beer also he was not elevated until 1948.
When she was 14, mother used to mad dog the German POWs shoveling snow Syracuse NY.
My father was one of the pow prisoners. Sadly he seldom spoke of his difficulties. He is no longer with us and death has taken the info with him. He was as I understand at a place called Stalino. He was released because of close to death due to starvation. He had to sign a form that he would not ever return to o Russia. Death was rampant due to starvation. I am still trying to find where my Grandfather died and if he was also in a camp. He never returned after the war. Is there any documentation to be able to find where he died?
Wow!
4 minutes in....SOLD!
If it is still the current state of history, about 1.4 Mio. German POWs didn't survive sovjet captivity.
In the Cold War Age, the Soviet Union and her east European allies exclusivly were blamed for this fact. If this isn't true or only to a much lesser degree, where did the POWs die?!
Yes, I think that she is re-writing history in favour of the Soviets. The Americans and British loved the J****-Bolsheviks back then. Putin is now a nationalist and so now they hate him.
Some truth to the exaggeration...as if all the camps are in Siberia. But you keep saying Siberia myth. Its not a myth,just wildly exagerated,& overstated. By her numbers 13% were in Siberia...that means it isn't a myth. But certainly many people think that is an accurate picture of most,or all camps...obviously that's untrue. But I almost felt like the guest was going too far the opposite way...almost bordering on minimizing,or underrating how many German POWs died. We don't let concentration camp guards off the hook..."well many of those people died from starvation or exposure." Yes that's true,but like the NAZI camp guards,even if they didn't intentionally murder many of the victims,they still are responsible for not caring for them...not caring if they died. Obviously,the lack of food,& everything is a factor...but you could say the exact same about Japanese,& German camps.
And Stalin is the EVIL,POS who intentionally caused an extreme feminine in Ukraine. I don't need to go through the litany of Stalin's crimes, usually committed by the NKVD,but he was every bit as evil,as Hitler. And his brand of communism,was as evil as NAZIism...rivaled only by the Khmer Rouge,Make,& probably N Korea...among communist regimes.
She isn't incorrect,& pointed out the exaggerations,& myths. But I feel like she was a bit of an apologist. The Nazis,& Japanese needed the labor of their victims also in theory-more than Russia-but we still hold them responsible for deaths from starvation...they still purposely murdered many,& even when they starved purely over lack of food...that doesn't make it ok,or absolve their captors. Exact same goes for the Russians. Although,it is more understandable cuz the Russians were brutalized 1st,& Russia did intentionally kill far less people.
I'm sure economic,& manpower needs factored in more in deciding whether they would hold them longer or not...rather than revenge or punishment. Cuz Stalin did the same thing to Soviet citizens...would require quotas to be arrested,regardless of guilt,built solely on labor needs,& Stalin paranoia.
But she also says "many POWs died after Stalingrad." That's an understatement...in fact the overwhelming majority never returned home alive.Sure more probably live if Paulus surrendered earlier,but he was forbid to do so by Hitler,predictably. And how many more really would've survived,& ever seen their homes again? If you die of starvation,exposure,exhaustion or a bullet in the head...does it matter that your murderers motives were actually economic,not punishment based. Makes sense to point it out,& study...but still is a morale crime. And makes not a damn bit of difference for the victims,whether of Stalin,Mao,ISIS,Pol Pot, or Hitler,etc. Again,she's not making stuff up...& much of her work is great. But she seems to be somewhat of a Soviet minimalist or whatever. I'd love to hear what her personal beliefs on communism are. Cuz in my opinion,it's every bit as evil as NAZIism. The hundreds of millions of innocents in the 20th century...murdered by communism bear undeniable proof of this. Just like the NAZI death camp,& burial sites prove how evil they were. On the whole-fascinating,& informative,but maybe slightly misleading at times...or bending a bit too far to fix opposite exaggerations,& myths.
Jason, I think you are judging this on the basis we didn't discuss the subject on a human level. But that wasn't really the point of the show. This was about the camps and where they were and the myths that surround them, based on her mapping. I also have guests who look at WW2 through the lens of human experience, but that wasn't the purpose of this particular show
Well said.
I agreed with most of your comment.
But it's VERY weird to me how you blame the Soviets for those who died from starvation or exposure, while giving Paulus a free pass "because Hitler ordered him to not surrender."
Shouldn't, by _your_ logic, we hold _Paulus_ responsible for the mass die-off from exhaustion?
Why do you blame the Soviets for being unable to keep alive the people who'd already been totally wrecked and run into the ground by Paulus?
(and, in large part, themselves too, because there were plenty of opportunities to desert and surrender at night, which some did - I wonder if/suspect that those who did that had a _way_ higher probability of surviving)
As for the Siberia part, isn't it also a definitional problem?
As in, do we count _all_ places east of the Ural mountains, or where exactly do we draw the line?
(in high school, maps usually said Siberia was basically everything north and east of Mongolia, which would exclude the comparatively major population centers of Yekaterinburg to Novosibirsk, for example)
@@MrNicoJac when did he give paulus a pass he said the nazis were as bad as the communist which is correct one just happened to also invade poland but the uk needed them as an ally to fight the bigger threat at the time because germany was closer
@@420bengalfan
the USSR did not invade Poland.
СССР не вторгался в Польшу.
My grandfather was a machinist and then became a doctor when the depression hit. He was a great man.
Paul/Susan, A great presentation. Very interesting subject together with the new method of research. Your presents got me wondering what will happen with Ukrainian POWs! The downside of the presentation is that it will cost me around £50 to get the book on Stalins Italian POWs!!!! 😂😂😂 Bob
@Shelldrake, exactly.
It makes completely sense that Imperial Russia sends prisoners of WWI in Siberia, they need to be sent far from the frontlines, while the war is continuing. I think that Britain sent many captives in Canada. It also makes sense that WWII POW are in the West rebuilding. Very solid argumentation, which is needed because the myth is strong.
Gulag: Chief Directorate of Camps.
"About a million and a half were released.....or died."
Lets be honest lady, they all died.
That's clearly not true is it? They didn't all die. A lot did, but not all of them
@WW2TV The majority did, including the "displaced."
What the authorities said they fed the pow's, vs what the local authorities said they fed the pow's, vs what the pow's actually ate never matched up. At any level. Ever. Using the first 2 as evidence is laughable.
"The troops ACTUALLY stationed in Siberia is only 13%!!!!!"
So fucking what? You think anyone gives a shit about about only suffering in -39 degree weather versus -47 degree weather? It's semantics, nothing more.
"The soviets didn't sign the Geneva accords....but....but....they admired it."
Oh, shut the fuck up. None of their actions backs this claim up. Not one. Being a bit less inhumane than the germans only makes you the second worst regime in the mid 20th century. No consolidation prize there, partner.
"But the Soviets couldn't adequately accommodate the mass influxtion of pow's..."
Oh, did the germans get a pass for this in 1941?
"The soviets just needed the labor to rebuild all the infrastructure that the nazis destroyed.."
Is that why they seized every policeman, fireman, mailman, utility worker, rail line worker, sanitation worker, and everyone else with a uniform in Germany and shipped them off to the Gulag? Is that why they seized german pow's returned to East Germany by the English and Americans (most who never fought in Soviet Union) and were instantly shipped off to the Gulags?
"Solzienytsen's writings about The Gulag Archipelago were translated in the west by the CIA." Seriously, dude? You offered zero pushback to this, despite easily obtained proof of bs? You should feel bad for this. I'm embarrassed for you.
There might have been a few informative nuggets in this interview, but the majority of it was a manufactured puff piece designed to make the Soviets look "less bad" than previously thought. Your guest would be thoroughly destroyed on a debate stage with any second rate historian.
You're entitled to your opinion
What are you making up and why? I see that anti-Soviet and anti-communist propaganda has brainwashed you very well.
Что вы выдумываете и зачем? Я вижу, антисоветская и антикоммунистическая пропаганда очень хорошо промыла вам мозги.
All POW camps where essentially low cost labour sources and it was indeed in the capturer's interest to keep the workers alive. Hey, there's ample evidence that even in German concentration camps before the war that was the case!
I wonder if this is where the idea of American POWs remaining in Vietnam in the late 1970s and 1980s came from?
No connexion i don't think
I wonder if any stayed, or even if it was possible.
Is she trying to find excuses for the soviets using slave labor on industrial scale? That would be immoral and disgusting
Not excuses just explaining
Just admit you're angry she's not giving you a daily dose of Right-wing demonization propaganda
@@ntokozosibanyoni1421 100% agree
Вы знаете, что было на советской земле после изгнания оккупантов?
Вы знаете сколько городов, мостов, заводов, школ, больниц, электростанций, шахт, жилых домов было разрушено нацистами, сколько сёл и деревень было сожжено до тла вместе с жителями?
Вы знаете о том, что оккупанты уничтожили более 7 млн. советских мирных жителей (это равно числу погибших на войне немецких военнослужащих), а более 4 млн. советских мирных жителей умерло от голода и болезней?
Вы знаете о том, что в нацистских концлагерях было умерщвлено более 3 млн. советских военнопленных?
Вы знаете, что население СССР и во время войны, и после войны голодало?
По-вашему мнению, гнусно использование рабского труда и нельзя это оправдывать?
А кто, по-вашему, должен был восстанавливать разрушенное?
Советские вдовы, старики, сироты и инвалиды?
Или, по-вашему, они должны были десятилетия после войны жить в руинах, бедствовать и голодать, потому что огромная часть молодых трудоспособных советских мужчин были убиты на войне?
Вы знаете о том, что и во время войны, и после войны в СССР была огромная нехватка рабочих рук и на мужских работах работали женщины и дети?
В шахтах под землёй, на лесоповале, на заводах, в поле на тракторах, машинистами паровозов и т.д.
По-вашему, гнусно использовать рабский труд немецких военнопленных? По-вашему, советские граждане, невинно пострадав от агрессии Германии в течение 4 лет войны, ещё и после войны должны были страдать, восстанавливая собственными силами то, что разрушил агрессор?
Что у вас в голове?
Германия была агрессором, у неё не было и быть не могло никакого морального права и обоснования использовать принудительный труд советских людей, потому что СССР ничем не провинился перед Германией.
А у СССР было моральное право и основания использовать немцев, чтоб они восстановили то, что они разрушили.
Немцы, все вместе и каждый немецкий солдат в отдельности, принесли неисчислимые страдания советскому народу, и немцы должны были искупить свою вину, хотя бы восстановив то, что они разрушили.
Ведь они не могли воскресить миллионы тех, кто погиб из-за агрессии Германии, так хотя бы должны были потрудиться на благо народа, которому они причинили зло.
Месть? Какая месть? Это слово вообще здесь неуместно. Это не месть. Это наказание и предоставление людям возможности искупить вину перед невинными жертвами.
И, кстати, многие немцы осознавали (в отличие от вас), что это справедливо, видя, какие разрушения и какое горе принесла советским людям война.
Do you know what happened on Soviet soil after the expulsion of the occupiers?
Do you know how many cities, bridges, factories, schools, hospitals, power plants, mines, residential buildings were destroyed by the Nazis, how many villages and villages were burned to the ground together with the inhabitants?
Do you know that the occupiers killed more than 7 million Soviet civilians (this is equal to the number of German servicemen killed in the war), and more than 4 million Soviet civilians died of hunger and disease?
Do you know that more than 3 million Soviet prisoners of war were killed in Nazi concentration camps?
Do you know that the population of the USSR starved both during the war and after the war?
In your opinion, the use of slave labor is abominable and it cannot be justified?
And who, in your opinion, was supposed to restore what was destroyed?
Soviet widows, old people, orphans and the disabled?
Or, in your opinion, they had to live in ruins, be poor and starve for decades after the war, because a huge part of young able-bodied Soviet men were killed in the war?
Do you know that both during the war and after the war in the USSR there was a huge shortage of workers and women and children worked in men's jobs?
In mines underground, at the sawmill, in factories, in the field on tractors, by locomotive drivers, etc.
In your opinion, is it abominable to use the slave labor of German prisoners of war? In your opinion, Soviet citizens, having innocently suffered from German aggression during the 4 years of the war, also had to suffer after the war, restoring on their own what the aggressor destroyed?
What's in your head?
Germany was the aggressor, it did not have and could not have any moral right and justification to use forced labor of Soviet people, because the USSR did not do anything wrong to Germany.
And the USSR had the moral right and grounds to use the Germans to restore what they destroyed.
The Germans, all together and every German soldier individually, brought incalculable suffering to the Soviet people, and the Germans had to atone for their guilt, at least by restoring what they had destroyed.
After all, they could not resurrect millions of those who died because of German aggression, so at least they had to work for the benefit of the people they had wronged.
Revenge? What kind of revenge? This word is generally inappropriate here. This is not revenge. This is punishment and giving people the opportunity to redeem themselves in front of innocent victims.
And, by the way, many Germans realized (unlike you) that this is fair, seeing what destruction and what grief the war brought to the Soviet people.
Top shelf historiography.
How did the Soviets treat those POWs who were Jewish
Jewish humour? 😂
Jews in the Nazi army? Damn at that point let them go for being such good spies
Russia was known for its pogroms against Jews. In Hitlers Germany there were no Jews in the military, that was forbidden. So no Jewish POW’s.