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LS Swap Basics - Oil Pump Shimming Debunked
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- Опубликовано: 6 янв 2022
- In this video series I discuss the why’s and how’s of LS oil pump installation.
There are a lot of videos on RUclips where LS engine builders use shims to center the inner oil pump gear or the outer gears before they tighten the oil pump bolts. I analyze why this should not be done and how I think installation should be done. There are two gears inside the oil pump that mesh in a way to move oil through the engine. But the inner gear is free to move around wherever it wants to provided it stays on the crankshaft. The inner gear will be pushed by dynamic oil pressure forces to rest on the crankshaft gear in a position that balances all forces exerted upon it.
Let’s say you do shim it. Now the inner gear is centered but the pump body can still move around a little before it’s bolted down. But what have you accomplished? The relationship between the pump body and the inner gear is still not determined so you’ve not achieved anything regarding the pump body.
So the point of these videos is to analyze the situation and determine what should really be done based on science.
I’m not condoning these but in case you aren’t familiar with the shimming process here are links to several videos that show how it’s done:
• Gm LS oil pump alignme...
• LS Tech: Installing th...
There are many more if you search for “SHIMMING LS OIL PUMP”. None of them offer any scientific evidence that shimming the oil pump does anything useful.
Pretty sure its the space of the larger ring to the housing, thats behind the cover. The larger ring spins and using the feeler gauge to make sure there is an even gap for the oiling of the outter ring. Otherwise the backside of the bigger ring rubs on the housing and wears. I thought it was BS too but look around at other videos... shimming makes sense.
No it doesn’t. I’m sticking to what I said. There are many more videos and comments that don’t shim the oil pump. The pump is self adjusting by design.
Yeah, I saw the same thing after examining the m295 oil pump/ there is a ridge on the back housing just next to the rotor that measures 53.06mm, the outside teeth of the crankshaft gear measure 52.86mm leaving a .2mm gap from the rear housing to the drive gear on the crank gear. Just take apart an oil pump until you only have the rear housing in hand and place it over the crank snout- it is pretty obvious why the shims are necessary at that point to keep the housing from rubbing on the crank. That being said, i have installed several without shims and haven't had an issue, but i don't like the idea of that housing rubbing and self-clearancing against the crank gear.
I'm a 20+ year Senior Master Automotive and Diesel technician, and I've not seen or heard of anything supporting the need for the shimming either. If it's not in a factory shop manual then it's bullshit. Flow dynamics support your theory.....as well as common sense. Good video.
Thanks, too many people just follow what others do. I’m guilty of that too but if it’s costing me money I analyze if it’s necessary and stop if it doesn’t make sense. Engineers in manufacturing go to great lengths to reduce cycle time so they wouldn’t put in a part that has to be shimmed. At least not on the factory floor.
Even on ALLdata service manuals they say absolutely nothing about shimming the gear when installing a new pump, I just checked for mine today, glad to get multiple of other opinions, mainly from your video as well as everyone in the comments, so thank you!!!
I’m going to put out another video in a month or two that shows what I believe is the best way to install an LS pump.
It’s not about the gear on the crank. It’s about the outer rotating part of the gear assembly. You don’t want it rubbing the housing it’s best to center it. 99% of the time it’s fine to just bolt it on and go but I’m going to center mine
You’re wasting your time it’s not gonna stay centered, dynamic oil pressure is going to move it to wherever it wants to go.
Think of it like this. building a car is an assembly line industrial process. There’s no way gm engineers designed something that required such a meticulous shimming process to install a part.
Also, if the oil pump requires shimming, and there’s many many people that are not doing it, where are all the failures ?
Thank you, sir. I thought I dropped the pump and thought I broke it ha ha but anyways, thank you.
Glad to help
mate no one shims the internal gear ,, one takes off the cover of the pump after its placed loose on the engine and one gets two feeler gauges and you place it between the body and the outer gear , then you tighten the water pump to the engine. pull the shims out , tighten the cover to the pump , done , the outer gear is not fixed it spins slowly so this allows oil between the body of the pump and the outside edge of the outside gear , other wise it will wearing too the housing of the pump , take one apart and you will see ,, mellings go in to detail on the instruction sheet , or just ring them ,,, cheers
You’re wasting your time. Read all the comments. This is my last reply to your original comment. In my description I said if you have scientific evidence I’ll hear your point but if all you’ve got is everybody else does it or some non- sensical explanation that’s not evidence. I tell you what post a video link to one experienced well known engine builder like Steve Morris who shims LS oil pumps and we’ll talk.
actually one shims the outer ring against the case not the internal you must take the cover off,,, this is why one can move the. whole item on the 4 bolts so one can shim , sorry you. dont know what you are thing about. even mellings , have this written down on the installation sheet ,,
Go watch it again and again cause you missed something.
Let’s analyze one particular video on oil pump shimming. But before I do, let me make one thing clear. I’m a scientist. All I’m doing is presenting information to come to a common understanding amongst all engine building enthusiasts so that we do the best possible job and save ourselves money. I’m not calling anyone out for being ignorant or poor engine builders. I’m sure I’m doing things that I don’t need to do and if someone sees me doing unnecessary work I sure would like to know. But I also ask that commenters post valid evidence based answers or provide data to back up their posts. Just because it’s done on another well liked video doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do something. Let’s help that person by persuading him that his methods are not founded on science and save him some time or money.
The video I want to evaluate is found here:
ruclips.net/video/CWCIdhG04LY/видео.html
In this video the outer oil pump gear is being shimmed to position the loosely mounted housing before torquing the housing to the block. But what is the housing being aligned to? In the thumbnail it’s clear the crankshaft and the outer gear aren’t concentric (can’t be or it won’t be a gearotor pump) so it’s not aligning to the crank. In the video the outer gear is resting on the inner gear which in turn is resting on the crank. The inner gear is not shimmed to be concentric with the crank so the inner gear is in an indeterminate position determined by gravity and contact points with the crank sawtooth gear. My conclusion is that the housing has been aligned to a random position determined by random contact points between the outer and inner gears and random contact points between the inner gear and the crank gear with all random contact resulting from gravity and a random crank rotation position. So this video shows a method that makes the least logical sense to me.
To improve on his method, let’s say we shim the inner gear to the crank to make the inner gear concentric with the crank. We have now eliminated the random position of the inner gear and gained control of the inner gear’s position. Due to inner/outer gear contact points the housing will be shifted upwards by 0.001”-0.003 before torquing it down. But all we’ve done is give the inner gear a little more wiggle room on the crank. When the shims are all removed, the inner gear is going to drop a few thousandths due to gravity. The outer gear is going to drop less ( I guess; it depends on the shim thicknesses he used) but is mostly constrained by the now secured housing. So what will happen is the outer gear will rotate clockwise just a little as the contact points change between inner and outer gears as the inner gear drops out of concentricity with the crank.
But let’s look at this again. The crank is motionless during this process. If the engine is built right it has close to 0.002” of main bearing clearance. So assuming it has no rods installed yet (or dynamic oil film) it will be sitting 0.001” lower in the block (or higher if the engine is upside down). So now we’re back to having a random crank position because we really don’t know where it’s going to be while it’s running. So ultimately the oil housing was shimmed to a crank position that will not exist while it’s running.
I really don’t see any benefit of shimming LS oil pumps. I’m going to do a follow up video to explain my understanding better.
that's not the way it is shimmed. you shim the OUTSIDE gear, not the inside gear. So you are completely wrong. If you would have done your homework and even watched other videos then you'd be better educated on how to properly shim the LS oil pump so it is perfectly centered and it IS NEEDED. Looks like you don't allow Comments from viewers because you only want to believe your own misinformation that then gets turned into a misinformative video.
You don’t have to shim it at all. Waste of time. You do it your way I’ll do it mine.
There's a video from Mehling that the instructor demonstrate and tells you no need to shim. Just install, leave bolts loose, turn shaft 1/2 around and tighten bolts. That's from the makers, ijs.
Im in agreeance with you. Shimming is BS. Yes the outer gear is off center, so the center of axis will move if the pump is clocked, However, the .015" or so of play between the bolt holes and bolts means the housing center axis only moves a fraction of an inch, a few tenths (.0001") if any. I plan on doing a video that will explain this with math so we can call put this myth to bed.
Actually I plan to do a video on installing the pump but not with shimming. There is an optimum way to install it although the benefits are negligible.
Terrible terrible information. This guy clearly doesn't understand how this pump operates. Have fun with your oil failure comebacks.
Clearly you don’t read the internet as its all over that people bolt it on and run it. I’ve been running a 6 liter for almost two years no problems just slap it on and go.
Yeah, if I pull that apart now way I'm not shimming it. The right way not the way he's explaining. Also I opened a ls1 OEM original pump with 30k miles and the outer gear was rubbing on the housing.