By right of succession according to Jaehaerys' law: Aegon By the word of Viserys: Rhaenyra One thing is for sure: If Viserys had just named Aegon heir, the problem would've been solved. Yeah Rhaenyra would've sputtered and gone on another tangent about how all men are pigs, but what else is new? Sputtering wouldn't have caused open war.
@@Mmm-nj5dk Yes, this was the real problem. She'd put Strong boys on the throne. It's funny how people hate Otto for being a schemer trying to put Hightowers (with pure Targaryen features and the surname Targaryen) on the throne, but are okay with Rhaenyra putting Strong brood on the throne.
While Rhaenyra's sons have Targaryen blood, they have no Velaryon blood. Yet Lucerys was set to inherit Driftmark and bescome Lord of the Tides. That is in fact high treason. Sure, Luke was set to marry Laena's daughter and through her their children would have Velaryon blood, but the fact remains: Jace might have a claim to the throne though his mother's blood but Luke is a bastard and as such has no claim to Drifmark. Rhaenyra's is incredibly lucky that Viserys would rather keep his head in the sand and Corlys is obsessed with his legacy...
Corlys had a gay son.... medieval times don't have ivf sooo someone had to father the next generation. High treason indeed but they ignored it because they forced a straight woman and gay man together
@@ayshagaylealso, and people can argue against this if they want but it’s kinda bs if they do, Laenor CHOSE Luke to be his heir. People act as though Laenor had no idea and they try and compare Rhaenyra’s kids to Cersei’s (even though Robert had no idea and, unlike Laenor, would have been pretty pissed off.)
I mean, the head of the house gets decide his successor. And Corlys and Laenor agreed. I get the others are upset but that's just the reality of having a head of the house, that they can do probably more than they should
All of the Targaryen's have Velaryon blood, Aegon and his sisters had a Velaryon mother, Jaehaerys' and his siblings mother was Velaryon and that same woman was later mother to Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheon, the latter of which is Rhaenys' mother. Rhaenyra's sons are not biological descendants in the main line of succession of house Velaryon, but Corlys and Laenor always acted and claimed as if they were and it's their choice to knowingly do so despite being aware of the truth. They both also show genuine love and affection for the kids, Corlys even says to Rhaenys that he won't name Baela his heir even as a tribute to Laena because it will 'cast an even darker shadow' over the boys' heads. Corlys is an ambitious man, but he also loves his family, even if some of them aren't actually (closely) related to him, his actor has even said that he wants his character to be devastated and furious at Luke's death in season 2 'because that's his grandchild'. Treason is a crime against the sovereign and the realm as a whole, the high treason is Jace being heir after Rhaenyra as she is passing him off as legitimate while she's heir to the throne, it has nothing to do with Luke and Driftmark. Funnily enough if you crunch the numbers, by percentage, Alicent's children are more Velaryon than Rhaenyra's and Rhaenyra's are more Targaryen than Alicent's.
It was stablished that male succession would prevail over that of females after the Dance, so it would always be clear from the start who would be king, no matter the will of the previous king.
@@Alejojojo6 It wasn't established that the male line would always prevail over the female. That is just a lie made up by the usurper Viserys II in order to help his steal the birthright of the true queen Daena the Defiant. I think even the usurper's son Aegon the Unworthy must have realized that wrong when he legitimized Daena's son Daemon Blackfyre.
One thing you and most viewers don't take into account: Rhaenyra is a TERRIBLE politician and diplomat, she always had the advantage of supporting the king and the status of heir, but she managed to bring the situation to war. At the moment when it's time to prepare for the conflict, she makes an alliance with Daemon and their first thing they give the capital to the enemy, and seven years later they wonder why everything has changed in the city and the country is ruled by the greens. This is the most striking but not the only example, her proposal for the wedding of Luke and the princess is not only insulting to Alicent, but also disastrous for her daughter, who in the event of a conflict between the factions will be held hostage by the blacks, and in the event of a rebellion of the lords against the bastard may even die, this wedding would not solve a single problem. P.S. Rhaenyra left her dying and loving father for seven years and returned for political support (without her father she would have lost), she is not only an inept politician, she is also a terrible and ungrateful daughter who spoils everything for herself, she did not give me a single reason to root for her and her family
Also, Rhaenyra willingly leaves the Blackwood and Bracken kids to fight to the death seemingly not giving a single shit about them. She also says that the wants of the small folk do not matter. Then when sending her son to make an important alliance with the Baratheons she offers literally nothing compared to the Greens offering a marriage alliance. I think she's more than shown that she isn't any better at diplomacy than her brother
Yeah no book all the greens in the book except maybe Daeron and Halaena are all pretty terrible people Alicent literally makes up rumors about a 10yr old Rhaenyra having sex with Criston Cole and left Viserys body rot for 10 days while they were scheming to have Aegon on the throne Show Alicent is way nicer
Lol the greens in the book are alot more villainous lol. Aemond is just a psychopath with the biggest dragon, Alicent is a bitch. Otto is well Otto. Criston is practically the same. Aegon II is pretty terrible but his bond qith Sunfyre is very admirable. Daeron and Haelena are probably the only likable ones.
Is it? Most of the Greens were laughably evil in the books, the Blacks were almost laughably evil in Rhaenyra/Daemon; but most Blacks seemed generally well adjusted.
The big problem is that Viserys didn't choose Rhaenyra because he thought she deserved it and was the best candidate, but simply because there were literally no other Targaryens and because of the Aemma guilt trip. Viserys always wanted his son to be the heir before Aemma death.
@@michaelnkomphela8231 Just because no female didn't rule after Rhaenyra's time, doesn't undermine Viserys' decision. Viserys had 3 sons after Rhaenyra. He could've passed the royal inheritance to any one of them at any point, but he didn't. He stood firm in his decision in Rhaenyra to the very end. This shows that he clearly believed in her.
@@michaelnkomphela8231 And she didn't necessarily lose either. Rhaenyra is not some feminist revolutionary who wants to overturn the Westorosi patriarchy.She just wants what every other character wants, to inherit the iron throne, while honouring her father's legacy. She does sit on the throne. And although her reign is brief, her son (Aegon III) becomes king , with her other son (Viserys II) as his hand and eventual successor.
Team Dorne for sure. Just sit back, relax, eat popcorn, and watch as the crazy blondies kill each other using their big magical fire-breathing lizards.
What makes House of the Dragon a good civil war story is its ability to make you have to think. Yes, once people choose a side, they will tend to view things less objectively and find ways to support and defend why they made the choice they did. But this happens on both sides As said in the video, there is no clear choice, which is what the best civil war stories should create.
The problem is that GRRM based The Dance off of the War of succession between Stephen and Matilda. Which was a fight between Henry I daughter Matilda and his nephew Stephen. Inheritance law would of had Matilda inherit, but many Barons (and the Church) opposed the idea of a Queen, so went to Henry’s closest male relative, aka his nephew Stephen and offered him the crown. In this case the legal heir vs the an heir preferred by the culture and religion, you can see how they were both able to field large enough support to fight. However, GRRM made the Dance a fight between a brother and sister. The Kings son vs the Kings daughter. Westeros law is male Primogeniture, Furthermore, Jaehaerys Great Council started a precedent for not only excluding women from inheriting the crown (Rhaenys), but that men couldn’t inherit through the maternal line (Laenor). Yes, the Lords of Westeros swore a vow to Rhaenyra, but 1. This could of been seen as a vow to crown a daughter over a brother, upholding the law and not continuing the precedent started by the Great Council. 2 Aegon had not yet been born. 3 After Aegon was born Viserys did not request the vow renewed or change Westeros’ law to equal Primogeniture. I just don’t think it is realistic in the world established in ASOIAF, that Rhaenyra would have as much support as she does.
Except the Targaryens aren't native Westorosi and the practices of their dynasty have been built on making the rules as they go. There was no King of the 7 realms before Aegon forced everyone to recognize him. Incestuous marriage is still outlawed in Westeros, but the Targaryen's specifically have been granted an exception due to Jaeharys maneuvers. Even the great council was an unprecedented event that was of Jaeharys invention. Viserys could have argued that the council was not precedent for male vs female progeniture but that it was instead a precedent for the a ruling king to be able to designate a rightful heir (in the event of multiple claimants) while he was still living. That was arguably the intent of Jaeharys anyway
@@frosthounded Viserys could also have stated that he was setting a new precedent that the daughter of a first marriage would inherit before the son of a second.
@@DavidbarZeus1 The problem is that despite what people say the King cant just do whatever he wants because you need people to support you and the Lords were never going to accept Rhaenyra while the king had a son. Viserys was a naive and feckless king who really should have known better.
Morally it should be Rhaenyra not because she is more suited for the role but also because she is the eldest child and the king himself wanted her on the throne. But unfortunately, by Westerosi traditions the male heir always goes first no matter how terrible that infibula may be. So their both rightful heirs in a sense. But I would say Rhaenyra’s claim makes more sense morally and Aegon’s makes more sense considering the culture and Medieval time period.
Tradition plays the role of law in feudalist society. What you are arguing is that it is unfortunate that there is any "law" however bad, and that the will of previous monarch should be the law instead, thus you are arguing for the transition to absolutism. Also she is not morally superior, her morally bad decisions will just come later. In the books they are clear. Anyway, concept of "rightful heir" is monarchist bullsh*t
She was NOT more suited better for the role. The King only wanted her to rule to spite Daemon and prevent him from ruling. There is no such thing as a "moral" right to rule, anyway.
@@dippy8053 Mothering 3 bastard children, neglecting the duties of your status and feminine position, whoring around, acting like a spoiled cnt, neglecting authority and so on are not the characteristics of a ''morally'' suited contender. By her standards she's not even worthy of being a princess. This is a fantasy show, but women like her would've been the type to meet the axe in medieval times.
@@TheSSBBfan666dude was king during one of the worst wars in the realms history of course he’s not favored amongst the small folk, if given time to reign in a time of peace I believe he would’ve been a competent king based on the council (the very council Vissy T had) he had serving the realm. He’s only ever shown to be irrational when pushed to the limits, he doesn’t fly to dragon stone and burn it after his sons death he lays a trap which speaks to his methods of retaliation and concept of ruler ship
if it makes you feel any better the show is what really happened whilst the books are recollections made by maesters who hated the targaryens, so aegon was digusting and we have yet to see what happens to rhaenyra
ok and? The whole war was pushed because people were not accepting of the idea of Rheynera being ruler. Lot of shit happened as Aegon 2 was one of the worst kings in Westerosi history and Aegon 3 (Rheynera's son) worked a lot to undo his fuck ups@@lindsey7951
Even if there was no sucession law history shows us that customs in effect basically work the same way, especially in regards to "chosen heirs" who would not normally be heir by the laws or customs and other alternate succession plans. Medieval kings could not really do whatever or kill whoever they wanted without justification contrary to popular belief. The things Aerys II did would be grounds for deposition in most medieval societies for example. Even if there was no constitution per se the equivalent of one would the consultation and approval of the lords of the realm (The peerage basically) and the realm's highest officers. The Great Council translates to that pretty well and given that Jaehaerys would select whoever they decided on (Even if it was Rhaenys!) and that there were other Great Council's that decided the rightful heir later on serve to prove its legitimacy. Also, I don't see the Great Council as establishing a hard rule but it did set a precedent. The issue with breaking precedent like that is that invites the possibility of anyone with a drop of royal blood theoretically being able to claim the throne. Monarchy and primogeniture are both objectively bad ways to choose the ruler of the country but what they had going for them was consistency so there would always be one rightful heir. If there is more than one person who arguably had the best claim yhen the kingdom is in extremely hot waters, even if someone like Viserys couldn't see it. The seeds of every sucession war are like this, even if they are sowed decades before the war actually happens. Aegon and his brothers have an intrinsic claim no matter what so even if Rhaenyra gets the throne they or any of their descendants down the line can make a pretty convincing argument that they are the rightful kings. That basically means a war is guaranteed no matter what. Also, their claims existed from the moment they were born because they were born under the male primogeniture system and that also means they have birthright. If there was a Great Council many years down the line they would choose Aegon II's descendants over Jace's. For a woman to have the birthright a law about absolute genderblind primogeniture would have to be passed and the female heirs would have to be born after it was passed. So yes, while the systems supporting Aegon II are sexist, in the context of the setting he does have the best claim to the throne. When Rhaenyra was born nobody said to Viserys "A new heir your grace" and nobody hailed her on her second name day. If Aegon was the designated heir nobody would have to come down to swear solomn oaths of loyalty to him because it would already go without saying. These might be minor context clues but they are very telling. If woman are allowed on the throne then Rhaenys is the rightful heir. If not then Aegon. If anyone were to look at a family tree of House Targaryen using male preference, male only, and genderblind primogeniture then those are the only two conclusions you can come to for who is heir. This is a huge problem for Rhaenyra. If someone can just pull up a family tree and decisively conclude that they have a bettwr claim than you then you are screwed. The Blacks cannot and do not really sit the throne until all the Greens are dead and even then they follow the rules of succession that supported Aegon.
Was looking for this comment. Great work writing this -- better than I could have. The fact of the matter is that, royal decree or no, some conflict was inevitable because of the inherent claims of Aemond and Aegon. Factor in the fact that EVERYONE knows the boys are bastards (and the stigma bastards have in this world), and it won't take long for some lord or two to come to the conclusion that Viserys' true-born sons should sit the throne. The only way to have avoided this was to have acknowledged Aegon as the heir. Rhaenyra may not be happy, but there would be little she could realistically do.
@@mikeygigs There would probably be 'claims' further down the line but it wouldn't really be because of the paternity of Rhaenyra's kids, it would be because people have something to gain from pushing and/or backing a claim and the paternity issue would just be the excuse. The biggest factor in the setting it that despite them having all these codes or honor and chivalry, most of the time they get thrown out as soon as they become inconvenient. The reason Westeros (if not their entire planet) is stuck in stagnation so badly is because 'the game of thrones' feeds on the inherent selfishness of the people who inhabit it - very rarely does any of the characters do the right thing simply because it's the right thing, especially when there's a cost to it (Duncan & Aerion for example). Westeros has succession issues constantly, I don't think it would even matter if they were Aegon or Rhaenyra's descendants, the squabbling is inherent to the continent. But if Rhaenyra and her descendants did well as sovereigns then any claim isn't going to get enough traction to actually amount to anything, even the dance as a whole saw majority of houses side with Rhaenyra and a significant amount remain neutral despite paternity claims, the main issue those against her seemed to have was that she was a woman, not that her 3 eldest sons might be bastards. The Blackfyre rebellions, especially the first, proved that being a bastard doesn't mean that people wont support you. Many houses that supported Daemon bordered Dorne and there was a strong anti-Dornish sentiment since Daeron's wife was a Martell, him being a bastard was less important to them than removing the growing Dornish influence at court. Some supported Daemon because it was advantageous for them to do so, some preferred him as the ideal image of a Valyrian prince over the Dornish-looking Prince Baelor, some of them simply believed that he would be a good king.
If you read the book it's painfully clear that Rhaenyra solely has a claim because Viserys made her his heir. The actual claiments are Aegon and Daemon. Rhaenyra would only have a legit claim if Rhaenys does too, than the actual heir should be Rhaenys and her (grand)children
She has a claim because she’s a Targaryen and the eldest child of the former king and to add to that Viserys had her declared his heir. The only reason she’s not immediately recognized as the next ruling monarch is because she’s a woman, but her claim is the strongest of the claimants in terms of actual Westerosi inheritance law.
King Jaehaerys should have made Rhaenys his heir after both his sons died. At least he should have been the one to make the decision. There is another thing: The first time Jaehaerys skipped over Rhaenys his sister-wife Alysanne was angered that he chose Balon over Rhaenys stating that his heir should be his previous heirs child instead of another child.
The problem with that is it might imply that his older sister Rhaena had a stronger claim to the throne than Jaehaerys himself. Because, you know, she did. Viserys's best bet is to invoke the law that Jaehaerys and Alyssane passed which said that a lord could not disinherit his children from his first marriage in order to allow children from a future marriage to inherit.
This is Westeros, the heir of the iron throne should be of patrillineal descent of Aegon the conqueror, not of some minor dragonlord wannabe house like House Velaryon, as it would have happened if Rhaenys was made Queen.
@@magister343 At that point it doesn't really matter though. When Aemon dies, Rhaena herself is already dead, along with her daughter Aerea who died much earlier. Rhaena's second daughter Rhaella might've still been alive, but she became a Septa, which disqualifies her from the succession anyways. Rhaena doesn't have any eligible living descendants, so it really wouldn't affect Jaehaerys' own claim. And Jaehaerys' 'Widow's Law' about it being illegal to disinherit children in favour of their younger half-siblings really only applies when the first wife has sons. If a lord's first wife didn't have any sons, but his second wife did, the sons of his second wife come before any daughters his first wife had, no questions asked.
@@MRJR-xi4bnif Jace ascended, he would’ve adopted the surname “Targaryen”; no Velaryon, by blood right would’ve ever sat the throne. In the books there are occasional cases of this. Harold Hardyng will do the same if he inherits The Eyrie from SweetRobin. He’ll take his Grandpa Lord Jasper Arryn’s name. Prince Mors Martell was succeeded by his daughter. Her son succeeded & dropped his father’s name & went by the last name “Martell”; the Martells handled every subsequent instance of this, the same way
And then in a decade you'd have Daemon invading to press his/Viserys's claim. The realm would be more likely to support this usurpation than any attempt Rhaenys would have made so in this way picking Viserys was the more stable outcome.
Spolier ahed: In the book we don't see much of Aegon II as a ruler cuz he gets seriously wounded in one of the first battles and only reappears in the end of the war. But we do see a bit of Rhaenerya and she is a weak and paranoid ruler, but of course the situation could not be worse with the realm at war and the royal treasure kidnapped by the greens. However in the dragon pit invasion she is completely omisse and looses 4 dragons in a single night which turn out to be detrimental for the house Targaryan falling later on.
That is how the history by the Maesters portrays her, but apparently they are taking a different approach in the show and Rhaenyra will actually face Aegon and Aemond along side Rhaenys. Keep in mind this is a battle where Aegon the King would be seriously wounded by his rival and a female. That would bolster Rhaenyra’s standing and the Greens and Maesters couldn’t have that.
@@Jacaerys1 Pure cope. If the show is the real canon, then if anything the histories has been pro-Rhaenyra propaganda than pro-Green; framing the Greens as pure evil with no redeeming qualities.
@@lulu-vp2yc we get 4 different accounts of dance of dragons and in none of them does Rhaenyra do anything at all. I’m not hating I think she’s an interesting character but it’s the truth
9:10 it's soo ironic and funny. "Strong boys aren't officially bastards", hell yes, nothing about bastards is official 😄 (unless they were legitimized by the king) Jokes aside, I think that anyone who has eyes and has ever seen a Velarion or even Rhaenyra herself could realize that her children are supposed to look like valyrians and they DON'T. There were literally dozens of people in the Red keep, all the servants who work there daily, guests from other regions, that gives you dozens of possible witnesses which is MORE than enough and natural for the "rumors" to be spread across the land without Alicent or anyone's specific efforts
I think at least book wise since their grandmother princess rhyneys has black hair. But even as someone who’s team black, this was rhaenyas dumbest mistake
@@applefly8 Rhaenys has black hair when she was young, but she started greying early in life. By the Dance of the Dragons she had mostly silver hair, although some black streaks remained. Rhaenys mother Jocelyn Baratheon was the child born in a scene that clearly inspired how the show handled Aemma's death. Jocelyn survived the c-section but her mother Alyssa Velaryon died. Alyssa was the sister of Coryls's grandfather, the widow of King Aenys I, and the mother of King Jaehaerys. Jocelyn's father Robar Baratheon was a descendant of Orys Baratheon, Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half brother. Jocelyn was thus Valyrian on both sides despite the black hair she passed on to Rhaenys. In the show Viserys and Coryls signed a special treaty that requires Rhaenyra's children to bear the name Velaryon until ascending the throne. I think that would technically apply to all her children regardless of who their biological father was, and could stand in for an official bill of legitimacy.
It has been a while since I read Fire and Blood, but I think I remember it mentioning that she developed her first silver streak at around age 20. By age 55 the silver hairs outnumbered the black. @@sodaandstars4389
Aegons only a rapist in the show right? Also these bastards that are so “kind” blinded a kid because he took their aunts dragon which is normal according to Targaryen tradition. I’m not saying what Aegon did was okay but like Jace and lucerys aren’t the perfect kids you make them out to be, also rhaenyra herself is tyrannical by natur considering how just after her sons blinded her brother, instead of punishing her sons to teach em something she instead deflected the fact her brother was getting stitches in his eye and called him out for treason tryna get him in further trouble, and her dad even ended up supporting her and pushed for the treason stuff even though his son was getting stitched infront of him. Imagine that same exact situation but instead rhaenyra was queen and the person in question was just some petty lord… These kids nor their tyrannical mother are fit for the throne.
JACE DOESNT EVEN KNOW HIGH VALYRIAN PROPERLY LOL it’s so plainly obvious that their bastards, it was only a matter of time before people would have called her out on it.
@@louthebot6684 I mean being a targ doesnt really automically mean that you know high valyrian... anybody can learn high valyrian if they have money, scrolls, books, and tutors who specialize in the culture and language
You hate the more kind and decent young men just because they’re bastards. They didn’t choose to be unlike Aegon and Aemond who were rapist, drunk, violent, and psychopaths. Let’s list the BAD things they did and Alicunt’s sons takes the prize. And in terms of Aemond losing his eye, did you not pay attention to how he was holding a rock to smash Jace’s head in? Should Luke just stay and watch his brother getting murdered by his much bigger uncle who mocked his father and Laena’s death? You’re a fool. Too blinded by the greens to actually acknowledge their bad actions. 🤡
@@louthebot6684 You’re being petty and nitpicking just to justify your biased hatred. But does Aegon and Aemond know proper high valyrian? atleast Jace and Luke showed soooo much character of a good future ruler compared to Alicunt’s sons and that you can’t deny.
IF we really do it by the book it's Aegon II hands down. Why you may ask? Simply because it's the Law. The Great Council of 101AC states that males should have priority over females when it comes to the Throne. It's what made Viserys I king in the first place over Rhaenys. So, Viserys I naming Rhaenyra his heir was purely out of whim. The Dance could have been avoided if this stupid fk didn't remarry and just proclaimed Daemon his heir and have him marry Rhaenyra. But when he sired Aegon II and Aemond and didn't change the succession it all went downhill from there. It also didn't help Rhaenyra birthed bastards and stupidly weakened her claim. After the Dance male priority to the throne was never questioned again. Fast forward to couple hundred years.. That's why Aegon VI or Young Griff is a big deal. Because IF it's true that he is indeed Rhaegars son then his claim is stronger than either Daenaerys and Viserys.
The law? The faith of the seven believe incest is an abomination. But turn their heads when Valyrians do it. The law is, who's ever in charge says it is.
@@TJ-fe7rr yes Jaehaerys I put it into law using the GC101AC with the help of the great lord of Westeros so it's not purely brute strength as you say. When Viserys I broke it the Dance happened. After the Dance male progeniture was never questioned again.
I think it's an interesting conversation knowing how terrible of a Queen Rhaenyera was. Both were terrible rulers. Fire and Blood provides all the answers and what happens and they certainly make her out to be the better ruler in the show.
To be fair to Rhaenyra and Aegon both, they became King/Queen during war time, and brutal war and desperation does absolutely bring out the worst of traits in human beings and rulers. And I think Rhaenyra and Aegon II both experience that moral degrading over time in fire and blood, especially when combined with experiencing the loss of children, followers, betrayals, etc. The kind of suffering that would alter and harden a lot of people even outside of war. I think had either one been able to rule in a time of peace like Viserys, then Rhaenyra and Aegon both would’ve been very different. But I imagine that would also be boring to read. 😂
@mybeloved4231 agreed for sure.. I'm just going off of the story fire and blood where Martin writes how they were both terrible . I loved Fire and Blood and Dance of the Dragons was one of the most interesting time periods.
At the end of the day Aegon I earned the crown by conquest. This is the precedent that trumps all. In the event of conflict, whoever takes the throne by force and sits as victor is the rightful ruler.
I’m disagreeing that RT is mature n fair. 16 plus years n still has to go to her demented crippled father to protect her inheritance because she kept screwing up. Her marriage proposals to both Alicent n Rhaenys are all made last minute by her in a desperate situation. 😂
I think that the laws of succession should have been followed. Boys inherit, girls inherit only if there are no boys. Visery's demanding his daughter be heir contradicted centuries of tradition, precedent and law and created a civil war. On top of that we got a look at both Rhaenyra and Aegon as king and queen. Rhaenyra was a paranoid, arrogant, coward who did little to nothing for her own faction and did way more things to hurt her faction while also standing by while her rule collapsed on itself. She sent Rhaenys to a battle and didn't give her any backup. She didn't provide any good rewards for her Dragon riders (arguably the most important asset of the war) prompting 2 of them to defect, and when they defected she tried to punish the other dragonseeds costing her the support of the Valerians. And when the mobs of kings landing attacked the dragons she did nothing, causing many dragons to die and later she was forced to evacuate the city where she was later captured and executed. Aegon on the other hand fought to the bitter end for his throne. He fought in 2 dragon battles and sustained heavy injuries both times. He was crucial to winning the battle of rooks rest and capturing dragon stone. He also reinstated order in kings landing and brought the prophet to justice. Aegon's main flaw was that he didn't heed the Sea snakes advice of handing out pardons to the lords who didn't support him as well as not attempting to tame Silverwing both actions would have secured his victory. Also Rhaenyra's Strong bastards would have created a power dispute in of it self. If she did come to power, many lords would want her sons with Daemon to succeed over her first 3 potential causing another civil war. Overall Aegon wouldn't have been a good king, but he would have been an inoffensive king that maintained the status quo that Jaehearys and Viserys established. While Rhaenyra's reign would be seen as illegitimate by many and her heir as illegitimate by many more. Bottom line, house Targaryen would have been better off if Viserys never bothered fucking with the succession laws established by his grandfather.
@DavidbarZeus1 no. Aegon Targaryan had an elder sister Visenya. He succeeded his father as the lord of Dragonstone and was the one that became king despite having an elder sister. The Targs followed the same basic succession laws as the lords of westeros.
@@Paul-te6kb Is Aegon being lord because he was a guy or because he married Visenya though? If Visenya had married someone else, would things be different? We don’t know enough about Valyria to say anything for certain
@DavidbarZeus1 Again false. Visenya was in no way seen as more powerful than Aegon. When Aegon died his eldest son by his 2nd sister wife Rhaenys (who was younger than him) inherited both westeros and dragonstone and Visenya's son Meagor inherited nothing. Visenya being elder meant nothing in the line of Succession.
It’s all King Visereys fault, finally someone knows who’s to blame for the Dance of Dragons…weak and foolish king, he should have married Rhaenyra to Daemond. That the simple but solid solution, instead he became Otto Hightower’s puppet.
I was with until marrying Daemon to Rhaenyra. That doesn't actually fix anything. What Viserys should have done was marry Aegon to Rhaenyra. Or he should not have remarried at all and had sons. Or he should have kept Daemon as heir. Or if he really wanted Rhaenyra he should have made actual legal changes to the succession and passed a law codifying it. There's a lot of things Viserys could have done that would have been smarter
Not ONCE has an elder Targaryen sister been crowned to the Iron Throne above her younger brother before this point. The ONE time it happened, a Civil War happened... AND she placed 3 bastards in line for the Throne after her. She was already breaking over a Century of Precedence, but she was committing High Treason to the 3rd Degree; Firstly cause of their illegitimacy as bastards cause they can't inherit titles by law Secondly for letting them usurp the main line of House Targaryen Thirdly for letting then usurp the main line of House Velaryon So while both Aegon and Rhaenyra are BOTH poor options, Aegon has more Legitimacy all around.
Lets be totally fair here. This is by tradition. Do you know why they held the Council of 101? It was a decision by Jaehaerys after his First Son and Heir died, then he named his younger Son his Heir, and then he died. Lords were already building up their armies (at least Corlys and Daemon) to push their, or their families claim. It was blatant there would be civil war and Jaehaerys never specifically named an heir after Baelon. Had he named one, this might have been totally avoided but he did not, then got sick and called a council to avoid a war already brewing. Viserys named his Heir. There's no if, and or but's there. He had lords swear their allegiance to her. These two situations are very different. The King CHOSE his heir here, where he didn't before. There was no war brewing until Alicent poisoned her kids minds as they grew older. Aegon was expecting his sister to take the crown. The small council only showed their betrayal AFTER the kings death. The Bastards thing is far more obvious in the show than the books. It's ambiguous at best in the books. There's an argument that Aegon's kids with Helaena are actually Aemonds which would make his kids bastards and both Aemond and Aegon would only have bastard heirs. Directly Incestual bastard heirs. In the show you have a decent argument for both the usurping house Targaryen and Velaryon argument. However in the books that's not clear at all. So I guess I'll let you have that, however Usurping isn't a crime, that's how Robert became King and everyone lined up under him. Aegon has more legitimacy only in that he is a Male. The King named his Daughter till the day he died and nobody said shit to him about how they wouldn't play ball till he was dead. Bunch of snakes and leeches. Consider this. If Alicent, The Hand of the King, The north, the Vale and the Riverlands all supported Rhaenyra, because Viserys Named her. If Aegon, Aemond and her family all stood behind her as they should have, what lord would've risen up? What lord in the 7 Kingdoms would've started a civil war when all the claiments are fine with it. If not for the plotting and betrayal of the Greens, there wouldn't have been a civil war. Prior to the council of 101, war was already brewing. It wasn't here. At most you might've had a Greyjoy Rebellion. Which is fine, that happened when Robert Usurped the throne using his right of conquest and valyrian blood generations back. But no civil war.
@@Holy_Discourses For the future please write in paragraphs so I can address points easier in a more coherent form...What's with people these days using the word "Cope" like they understand what it means when they don't. I'm not "coping" I'm just giving you the facts as they exist in this world. 1. 99.9% of the time a King isn't going to pick some random Peasant. So your strawman is wasted. There's literally dozens of family members in most situations one would pick before a stranger. Not gonna give it more than that. 2. I agree. Aegon chose his own heraldry and changed his familial religion in an attempt to add to stability. Keep in mind he didn't stop the tradition of Brother/Sister marriage which also would've improved stability. So it's not like he gave up everything. Future Targaryens still married immediate family against the traditions and religion of Westeros. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. 3. The Council of 101 proves literally nothing. It's simply saying that when GIVEN THE CHOICE. The lords would prefer a male heir over female heir. This is the first and only time they've EVER been given the choice. So I don't see the relevance. Especially since we have the benefit of Hindsight. Which suggests that without the treason of the Green Council, there wouldn't have been a civil war. Only the people who backed Aegons claim went to war with Rhaenyra. If Alicent and Aegon never pushed his claim, there would've been no war. Maybe a lord would've announced his independance and been quickly conquered, but we have no evidence for this. 4. I'm not overblowing the ambiguity. It is VERY gray in the books. There is no certainty to the claims and the majority of the people making those claims are people with their own angle or loyalty. You could make that point about Aegon in the book, I'm not here to argue ambiguity. The council of 101 was to set the record straight on THAT Succession. Not succession in general. Where's your evidence for that? You're incorrect. The king didn't just choose whoever he wanted. His First Son Died, Then he named his Second Son. His second son died and the only people immediately next in line was the daughter of his first son, or the two sons of his second son. Up till this point it was always a First Son and their children who would take the throne. When that was not possible, the Council was called. You're incorrect all around. 5. There is no social contract. You follow what the dragon lord says or he shits fire on your people. That's how it was for most of Targaryen history. It was a system of fear and power not love and loyalty. You're mistaking English lords with Westerosi. English lords could team up and attack the King, he had no dragons. Why do you think nobody ever tried to properly overthrow the Targaryens till after the blackfire rebellions? Dragons, not love and trust. The Mad King wasn't deposed by a large movement. He was deposed by family of the people he killed, who didn't agree with his actions. His murder and burning of people was defended by half the realm don't forget. Your arguments are just falling apart. No war after Roberts Rebellion? The Greyjoys rebelled a few years later and were squished by the the other lords. You know your history? He wasn't chose by the people. He walked in, took the crown and used his Targaryen blood as more a justification for taking the throne than being chosen by the people because of it... 6 .The Civil war happened because of Otto and Alicent. Full stop. If they didn't push Aegons claims, Aegon wouldn't have. Who else would've gone to war over a claimant that didn't see himself as a claimant? If there was a social contract, why didn't all the lords come to the King and tell him they refused to see his Heir as legitimate? Instead half the lords agreed to defend her right and the others kept their mouth shut. If you wanna come out with some facts I'm happy to have this conversation, but you've offered not much to work with.
Aegon was no better, all he did was make bastards too. Yes his was under wraps, hers couldn't her husband was gay. Having kids was her forced upon duty by her father abd as a woman.
@@TheSandwichMonster Dude, it was another 25 years since Rhaenyra was named Heir. Most of the high Lords were dead, and new Lords didn't swear fealty. And it was all before Aegon was born. And Aemond isn't the father of Helaena's kids. Hell, the intro of the show already confirms it, so that's off the wraps already. Viserys was a fool, what a ridiculous decision. Rhaenyra being made the heir to keep Daemon off the Throne was a temporary solution to a still existing problem, until the King got a firstborn son (Aegon II). Then Aegon would've been made Heir, and no Dance (unless Daemon and Rhaenyra commit some Rebellion/Usurping stuff. Viserys naming Rhaenyra Heir basically means he admits his own rule was illegitimate, cause by this logic, Rhaenys should've been Queen
@@thalmoragent9344 It's unfortunately as simple as this. The great Council was needed because the kings DIRECT HEIRS died. Several claimants were building up armies and supporters to fight for their claims if need be. Full stop. This wasn't the case before the Dance of Dragons. The sides and armies were made/raised after the kings death and after Alicent committed treason. If it were not for Alicent/Otto pushing Aegons claim (who didn't want to be king), no dance would have happened. Full stop. There would have been no war if Alicent didn't push Aegons claim and Aegon didn't agree to it.
Jorah said it best. Aegon had no claim to any of the kingdoms of Westeros and had no right to them, he took them simply because he COULD. Westeros law and culture was anti-polygamy, but Aegon said "Too bad, I don't give a fuck about your customs, Targaryens are above the law and I can have two wives if I want them." and the people accepted it because they had no choice. Westeros law and culture was anti-incest, but Aegon said "Too bad, I don't give a fuck about your customs, Targaryens are above the law, and we will marry our own family if we want to." and the people accepted it because they had no choice. Targaryens had absolute power, or at least they were supposed to. The existing laws and customs do not matter when Targaryens exist and have dragons at their disposal. When King Viserys declared that his daughter would rule after him, everyone else should've accepted it as well, regardless of their opinions on the matter or the existing traditions. Anyone that took issue with it should've been treated to dragon fire until they went down the list of heirs to someone that thought it was fine. Viserys was a weak, toothless, and ineffectual king. He allowed his Hand to run the kingdom for him, amassing his own power and wealth at the expense of the realm, he ignored serious issues that required his attention, and declared his daughter heir without really taking the time to train her up to that role and condition the rest of Westeros to get used to seeing her in a position of authority and power that they must respect. Instead, he decided to spend all his time banging his new underaged wife, whelping some boys off her, and completely ignoring all of the people who started talking about how they took issue with a female heir when he had male sons now. The idiot even named his son Aegon. If Daemon had been king, and wanted HIS daughter to rule after his death, you can be damn sure she would have. He would've reminded anyone that stepped out of line why the Targaryens were the absolute rulers of the 7 kingdoms in the first place. The mistake was too many weak kings who allowed the self interested lords under them to dictate policy and enforce traditions that did NOT align with Targaryen beliefs. If they were as ruthless as Tywin was to his enemies and Aegon was to his enemies, people would get the message very quickly that even dancing around the thought of disobedience was met with the end of their entire house. Armies can't fight dragons, and only the Targaryens had dragons. Personally, I think both sides of the Dance of Dragons are fucking stupid. Rhaenrya fucked around her whole life, having a bunch of bastards without even caring, taking no responsibility or even expressing a desire to rule until her father was almost dead. Meanwhile, her bitch ex-friend Alicent completely betrayed her and was too bitter about her own situation to tolerate Rhaenyra ruling. She was butt hurt Rhaenyra lied to her, butt hurt Rhaenyra had bastards, butt hurt Rhaenyra's kids cut out the eye of one of her kids (even though it was her own kids fault for being a shit bag), etc. She and her father conspired together to orchestrate this situation that they KNEW would lead to war and death just for a power grab for the sake of house Hightower and wanting her kids to be the rulers. All of them acted selfishly. None of them deserve to rule. But as far as "rightful" heir? The RIGHTFUL Heir was Rhaenyra. Regardless of all those other lords' opinions and beliefs, they all SWORE OATHS of fealty to serve her and acknowledge her as heir to the crown. That means for ANY of them to rebel against her, to not support her, or to support her rivals, would be violating their oaths. And that is a much bigger and more serious crime and offense and a straight up CRIME than simply the "custom" of not letting women on the throne. Every lord that sided with the greens are oathbreakers and should've been punished by death.
@@beeeeeesburyBecause he STOLE a dragon. And not just any dragon, but the one belonging to a recently deceased family member. That dragon was supposed to go to one of her children but because Aemond was a selfish little twat, he decided to go steal it instead. He deserved to lose his eye. And honestly, if Viserys hadn't been such a profoundly weak king he would've punished him far more severely for committing such a crime. The rest of the family was still mourning the loss of a beloved family member and he took advantage of that to essentially rob her grave during the funeral. It was reprehensible on a number of levels. Maybe the dragon would've rejected other riders, but we don't know because they weren't even given the opportunity to try. It should've gone to the previous rider's children first. That is why Aemond was a little shit and a twat. And then after he had stolen the dragon, he came back being smug about it. There was no remorse, not even sympathy or empathy for the loss of the family member, he didn't give a damn. He was an awful person and only became more cruel and shitty as he got older.
@@TheDrexxus dragons can't "go to" a child, that's not how they work. The only way you can genuinely steal a dragon is with something like dragonbinder, and I don't remember Aemond blowing any horns lol. If dragons could be inherited, Viserys would have ridden Vermithor instead of balerion.. (Also, who's fault is Aemond's smugness? Why would you expect anything less from a literal child confronting his bullies, who bullied him for not having a dragon, after claiming the largest dragon in the world??)
If you are arguing that there is no law but "might makes right" and Targaryens can do what they want because they have dragons, why does that not also go for the Greens? I can't with this logic. If Aegon I had no claim but took the throne by force, why should Aegon II and his brothers not be allowed to do just the same? They are after all Targaryens, have dragons and are therefore above the law. That's the logical conclusion of this "might makes right" nonsense. There is no rightful ruler with this mindset but the one with the larger army. You can't on one hand say that customs and laws do not matter, only power matters, but then turn and around and cry that Rhaenyra was wronged because her "lawful" throne was stolen and the oaths should have been respected. If traditions and laws do not matter, neither do some stale oaths of 20 years ago or the whims of deceased king. Also Aemond did NOT steal a dragon. That's more show pleb nonsense. In the book canon Vhagar was unclaimed for months until Aemond claimed her, Rhaena never once objected to it and there was not even the slightest mention that Vhagar belonged to Rhaena or that she was meant to claim her. Because dragons don't get passed down parent to child and one small girl throwing a tantrum doesn't automatically meant she is entitled to a boeing sized dragon. Aemond claimed Vhagar and won her fair and quare just like Daemon claimed Caraxes. I'm tired of this biased nonsense, Aemond was the only one wronged that day, he was severely maimed unpunished because of his favouritist shitstain of a father and you think that wasn't even enough? No wonder he became cruel and bitter, because anyone would with a family like this where your own father doesn't give shit about you or your siblings because you were born to the wrong mother.
The Targaryens go through male Primogeniture (Rhaenys was never considered to be Queen, it was his son Laenor who was considered). This male Primogeniture laws is what makes Jaehaerys I and Viserys I sit on the throne. They both sat on it above older female relatives. After the dance, it sat a precedent and never again could an older woman take the throne from a male heir. So Viserys doing what he wants by taking down the own laws that made him king in the first place do not offer him a lot of legitimacy. Aegon II has a better claim.
This is why patriarchy was what gave Rhaenyra a claim to the throne, because of his father who is the most patriarch of all patriarchs lol. I'd been arguing that if Westeros was like Dorne, Rhaenyra wouldn't even have a claim because Viserys or maybe even Jaehaerys wouldn't have been king.
@retro nerds yes it was laenor's claim that was denied at the great council but people are still aware of the fact that had rhaenys been a male she would have been king beyond dispute because she was the only child of jahaerys' oldest son. Also alysanne felt she should be jahaerys' heir.
And also rhaenys' claim was brought up at the great council. It was just quickly dismissed along with 8 other claims and the debate really came down to laenor vs. Viserys. But again, had rhaenys been a man, neither laenor nor viserys would have been considered, nor would the Great Council have been initiated.
In a pure legalist sense, you're correct. In reality such rules had been shifted both in medieval lines of succession; the issue is that Rhaenyra made so many bad political decisions that made her succession very easy to co-opt.
14:23 I would argue you missed two points. 1. Viserys clearly neglected both his sons as he became estranged from his wife. There isn't any time shown between Viserys and either of his sons in this regard. Aemond is more well-adjusted, despite being much like a younger Deamon, but Aegon is basically the first-born son that his father had all but said was never meant to follow after him. No sense of duty coming from a lack of expectation from the primary male figure in his life and Otto wasn't around for much of his upbringing. And there begins the downward spiral. 2. He literally has bastards across the city, that he leaves in horrendous conditions and seemingly has no opinion on it. So he is 1. a neglected child that became a mess and 2. A callous and/or cruel monster, divorced from any sense of duty or decency. I still say team green, as I did before the show starting airing, but that has more to do with Otto and Aemond.
If Viserys really wanted his spoiled brat of a harlot daughter so bad to be Queen, he should’ve just abdicated when his health started getting really bad, named her Queen, and merely stay alive for a year or so when she gets established. And before you say “no abdication” that’s BS. Viserys can apparently do whatever the hell he wants by breaking tradition, he can sure as hell abdicate when his health starts failing, to avoid all this confusion
I love how balanced this was. As a team green fan I see a tonne of biased takes that way too heavily favour team black. But I think seeing the overwhelming majority hate on team green without nuance pushes a lot of team green supporters too far the other way. So its nice to see someone giving both sides a fair assessment.
It was a bit light on Aegon though. Personality wise it's a clear loss for him, Rhaenyra might be a bit arrogant and she's reckless in her love life, but she doesn't do anything that's particularly bad. Just taboo. Aegon on the other hand is a rapist and shows some cruel tendencies.
It's not sure if Maegor was the one to have killed Aenys. Actually it's not sure if Aenys was even killed in the first place. It's all assumptions based on the circumstances. Aenys was actually getting better under Visenya's care before he ultimately succumbed to his illness. Or at least that's what I remember from the books.
Maegor didnt kill Aenys. He either died of natural causes, or was killed by Visenya to put her son in the Throne.... Maegor was far away in Pentos doing his thing, and when Aenys died, Visenya flew to Essos to tell him the news and rush him to take the crown. If everything, it's a plot of Visenya to have her son crowned.
People tend to forget Rhaenyra didn’t want the throne anymore even after she married Daemond. She wanted to quit until Viserys literally got out of his death bed to double down on Rhaenyra getting the throne after he passes. Aegon II was a lot of things but he wasn’t stupid. He saw his mom was foolish to believe Viserys wanted him to be King.
You talk about the show, it's very different in the books. In the show they are completely team black, trying to create a new Daenerys, even giving an aspect of divine choice to Rhaenyra. Which doesn't exist in the books, she didn't even fight for her right even though she was a dragon rider, Aegon II did, just like Aegon the Conqueror did to conquer Westeros.
@@kgbfelipesilveira1 The books are supposed to be from the MAESTERS point of view and the maesters are biased for the Greens given the Oldtown connection. The show is supposed to show the more accurate interpretation of the things that happened. Like Aemond in the books viciously wanted to kill Luke but as we saw from the show it was an accident and Aemond was remorseful for taking things too far.
@@RasSimba The show is not canon to the books that make up A Song of Ice and Fire, but rather to the show Game of Thrones and other future HBO shows. That's what I'm talking about. The show changes a lot of things from the canon of the books, like ages and characters that should already be dead. The show version is NOT a version closer to canon when we talk about books, only HBO shows.
Obviously Aegon since Obviously Aegon, since even King's cannot exist beyond the framework of a basic legal structure and Jaehaerys' Great Council clearly mandated the firstborn male son should be king. Viserys himself would not have that crown over a female claimant if it wasn't for that mandate. Majority of the lords chose him, just like they chose Aegon. Not to be mention the Green Coup is justified if you believe the throne was treasonously going to the lineage of the Strongs. That is usurpation too.
No she's the first born therefore the throne is hers ,logically speaking but unfortunately the world she lives in isn't ready for a female leader yet but again someone needs to break the cycle or it'll just be going on and on
@@niraxlevi9930 Male firstborn offspring always had precedence because when you rule seven kingdoms you need to inspire a sense of authority, respect and fear. Back in those days it was also important for a ruler to act as a warlord if necessary, and women women were not suited to combat while wearing heavy armor and melee. That's how nature works. Why are the alphas in the wolves and lion packs always male... because of what I just said. The ''cycle'' you're referring to is nothing more than a childish dream, one that has unfortunately plagued our world.
@@niraxlevi9930 Not ONCE has an elder Targaryen sister been crowned to the Iron Throne above her younger brother before this point. The ONE time it happened, a Civil War happened... AND she placed 3 bastards in line for the Throne after her. She was already breaking over a Century of Precedence, but she was committing High Treason to the 3rd Degree; Firstly cause of their illegitimacy as bastards cause they can't inherit titles by law Secondly for letting them usurp the main line of House Targaryen Thirdly for letting then usurp the main line of House Velaryon So while both Aegon and Rhaenyra are BOTH poor options, Aegon has more Legitimacy all around.
Depends if you believe the named heir has the right over the first son. He should have had a great council. Or she should have wed aegon or maybe daemon when she was younger. Or she could have married harwin Or rhaenys shoulda burned the greens lol. So many options .
The last great council affirmed that the heir of the last named heir took precedence over the line of anyone who was skipped over when the heir was named. The great council could easily be used to say that Rhaenyra must inherit. The real clincher though is a law passed by Jaehaerys and Alyssane which stated that no one has the right to disinherit the children of his first wife in order to allow a child of a second wife to inherit instead. If Aegon II and Rhaenyra had the same mother then Aegon would obviously inherit before Rhaenyra, but The Old King's laws made it clear that Aemma's line must always take priority over Alicent's.
The Great Council of 101 decision carry more weight then Viserys made the lords swear fealty to Rhaenyra. Spoiler* That's why even after Dance of the Dragon with Aegon III and Vyserys (Rhaenyra's boys) rule the kingdom, they don't acknowledge that Rhaenyra has ever been the Queen. In fact, the succession continue to be male-prefer
i’d argue it’s more that they didn’t want to rehash the conflict that ruined their lives more than they didn’t believe their mother was the rightful queen
@@patrickulas No, their claim to the throne was through their father Daemon. Maybe they did consider her the true monarch(I don’t think so) but acknowledging her weakens their claim. At the end she isn’t acknowledge and her rule is illegitimate.
@@akaza4407 sure they fought for him because they declared for Rheanyra and he was their but many including Cregan Stark acknowledged Aegon II as the king after rheanyra died and Aegon III as his heir. They claimed the throne through male primogeniture and continued to enforce that rule of male primogeniture after.
@@neneray310 As I remember, Aegon II did not make Aegon III his heir, and he and Alicent were against that decision. As for cregan, he did not recognize him as a king, and I remember that he called him "a usurper of the throne"
Even monarchies cannot function without a basic framework of laws and not just by “it was duh kang’s word”. Otherwise, if a king as influential as Jaehaerys' word meant nothing soon as he died, then why should Viserys' word mean anything after his death? The Great Council was clearly a legal body, in style of the Zemsky Sobor that chose the Russian Tsar, meant to set precedent for all future successions. Here's why : the Small Council advises the king. It does not officially vote a ruling into existence. But Jaehaerys didn't say "the Great Council simply advised me and I chose the king", he deferred to the Great Council's vote entirely. The king wasn't chosen by the Great Council's "advise", it was chosen by the Council's "vote". Which means it was defacto a law making body. And more importantly, I believe Viserys cannot overturn a precedent that made him king in the first place, without illegitimating his own reign. Just take a second to think how hypocritical that was for Viserys. Rhaenys WAS the rightful heir as Aemon's daughter, but the Great Council chose Viserys because he was a man. They exercised male primogeniture, therefore setting it as a precedent. Westeros is not male exclusive but with rare exceptions the inheritance has always passed to the male son first. A precedent which Rhaenyra Targaryen and her sons happily affirmed when she had multiple opportunities to press Baela's claim, or that of the elder daughters of Rosby, Stokeworth etc, and bypassed them for male heirs. Even when she was winning the war. Ask Viserys II how he felt about Daena's claim to the throne!! I guess the OG Viserys would've done well to remember what Jace said in the show, "a king should honor the traditions of his forebears". This whole thing about the king's "wish". It is an illusion and completely dependent on what he can and cannot enforce. Power resides where men believe it resides. The kings who succeeded, like Jaehaerys or Daeron II, all understood the necessity of compromise along with force. Viserys had no ability to enforce his decision. Therefore the blame lies on him for going forward with it. Unless you consider Viserys a mythical god, then there was no reason for the Greens to abide by his pie in the sky delusions. If everyone else wanted Rhaenyra there would've been no civil war and the Hightowers would've been crushed. But instead the 3 richest kingdoms supported Aegon.
Facts, I want to add an example, In Spain the Catholic kings had a problem with the succession, cause Ferdinand wanted his grandson that was also named Ferdinand to be the heir of Spain, this because he was raised and educated by him so he was gonna be loyal to him and his beliefs, but Isabella clearly refused, saying that they needed to obey the laws if they wanted that the law would be taken seriously, otherwise a Civil war could happen and this was the worst, so they named Charles heir even if they didn't wanna, cause it was the right thing to do, you need to follow the rules of your own game if you want others to respect them as well
Also, Male Primogenitor isn't the norm because people are sexist, it's because child birth is dangerous and a Queen is more likely to die and send the realm into chaos.
@@DavidbarZeus1 That's correct. Which I think was Jaehaerys' big mistake. He should've codified succession into law after the Great Council. But not having a clear cut answer to who is right..is what makes it intriguing imo. It makes you choose one side or the other based on your worldview. Personally what turns me off the from the Black claim is the arbitrariness of leaving everything up to the wish of the monarch. It's a recipe for discontent and disaster imo.
@@merrittfigure2924 Fair enough, though one Black here has been putting forward the argument that Rhaenyra WAS the lawful heir thanks to a law passed by Jaehaerys.
But there's a series of established precedence that the laws of succession haven't been followed with the throne since Aenys. Jaehaerys was not the rightful heir, nor was Baelon, nor was Viserys. It's the irony of Otto and others saying 'but the law' when the law hasn't been followed in 80+ years. If the throne has to go to whoever is the rightful heir by the succession laws then it goes to Rhaenys and her line.
Aegon II and its not even a debate. 1. he's the male heir and per westerosi law the firstborn male inherits. no debate. 2. rhaenyra is very immature and a spoiled brat even as she gets older. she also failed to produce proper heirs in due time. which is scandalous and unseemly for a queen. now neither of them would be good leaders but Aegon II has the better claim.
George saying that medieval Europe didn't have codified laws, especially on the subject of inheritance, might be the most willfully ignorant thing to leave his mouth that isn't Aragorn's tax policy.
The rightful heir is whoever can claim the throne and hold it. Spoilers: technically Aegon won he killed Rhaenyra and claimed the throne. But... it was all for nothing. The greens couldn't hold the Iron Throne even with Aegon's legitimate daughter alive. The King's word is law, lords may challenge it if they wish, if they lose they're traitors, if they win the King was a tyrant, but the King made it clear who he wanted to succeed him. But tradition also holds weight, which is the case for Aegon. They both had legitimate claims to the throne. And they truly both lost in the end. But only one line continued into Dany's time.
Technically she won she took her throne back and even when aegon killed her and took it back he was killed and her son took over so now rhaenyrs blood continues on the throne not Alicents and her sons
@@juliancain3872 Aegon was on literal life-support. The equivalent is winning your living room from a house plant. If anything, she won Kings Landing from Aemond, who (against his own expectations) turned out to be an utter idiot. Targaryens suffer from main-character syndrome. I cannot believe that Vissy T actual thought that he was the prince that was promised. This guy looked his mediocre and dim self in the mirror, and thought he was the right person to save the world from an unspeakable terror. Guy wasn't even a dragon rider anymore at that point. Couldn't lead a raid on a pantry, let alone govern a kingdom. But he though he was going to defeat the long night. He's more delusional than Eminem in a Mariah Carry music video.
Numenor in its Springtime, from the LotR books had the right idea for a monarchy to endure, avoiding succession crises. For the 1st millennium & a half the monarchs each abdicated when they reached seniority to a groomed adult heir-apparent. Ruling until death, then expecting heirs & claimants to play nice almost ensures occasional civil wars
I think succession laws in Westeros warped after the Dance, Robert wins the throne by right of conquest but he is accepted as king due to his Targ grandma, then it goes to joff, tommen but also Myrcella is almost crowned in dorne, so I would guess after the dance it became more a matter of who has the power to actually hold their claim more than how good that claim is.
Oh it definitely got worse after the Dance, really showed how far you can get if you have the power and/or opportunity to push with, they definitely tried to 'legitimise' Roberts rule with his Targ blood to stop others from getting conquesty ideas and opposing him. Their laws constantly get undermined and tossed out because of the Westerosi tendency for being inherently self serving, selecting loyalty on 1) would this person being in power inconvenience me in some way 2) would I be in danger if this person was in power and can I deal with that sufficiently or not 3) can I profit from supporting or opposing this person The Blackfyre rebellion is probably the best example, Daemon being a bastard and basically entirely exempt from inheritance - let alone the succession of the Iron Throne - became irrelevant the moment it suited his supporters.
After the Dance the throne almost exclusively passed through the male line, from father to son, to brother or to uncle. So I would say the succession law the Greens were fighting for was actually solidified
Definitely Aegon, the legitimate son will always inherit ahead of a daughter, it has legal prescedence in Westeros. Viserys was an idiot for not either reaffirming rheneryas status as heir after he had a son, and the fact that Rhenerya barely did anything to form a strong power base in kings landing and prepare for an obvious power grab by the Hightowers proves that she is probably not fit for the crown.
She didn't do anything cuz she's the heir already ,he did reaffirm her multiple times for example during the trial of her so about driftmark's heir,during the dinner when he called her son future king,the guards always introducing her as heir..etc the public don't matter they can't do shit as we seen with dany easily burning them instantly but the strong houses do and they wouldn't dare to oppose her if it wasn't for otto and larys so she didn't need to form any alliances as everyone already bended the knee for her and you talk as if aegon gathered alliances ,he didn't do shit only raping women left and right ,both of them are weak leaders honestly, all viserys kids are but she is the best of them as she always seeks peace, she never expected alicent to pull something like this nor other lords breaking their promises but without anything else she is the heir because she is the first born since this is how royalty works ,this is not an election when people can vote
@@niraxlevi9930 if she didn’t expect an attempted coup then it’s on her. She already knew her status as heir was questionable and she knew that viserys was on deaths door, her inability to safeguard against attempts to overthrow her is telling that she would not be an effective heir
@Thomas Eastman She's no better than the man who terrorized every woman in the Red Keep and used his own bastard children to fight in horrible rings. Both are horrible people, but Rhaenyra was the rightful heir.
Westeros is just a replica of how real succession used to work. In order to understand it, you should pay attention to the conversation between Viserys and Corlys about the lineage. Male primogeniture is what preserved at best a certain house on the throne. Otherwise you have to use the escamotage of Viserys or the one that Windsor in modern times used. That means that you make an exception to the common law and give someone her mother's surname just because her dynasty was the ruling one. Here we'r facing a huge hypocrisy and the show is making us stay on the Rhaenyra's side because of writing and because of the previous analogy with the Lannister of GOT, we like someone who could actually prevail on Otto, since we had no one to prevail on Tywin when he was alive. I don't know if was also Martin's intentions when he wrote about the Dance. No King or Queen is or should be above the Crown institution. A small page on a book if you prefer. That's why Charles is King even if Elizabeth wanted William. That's why Viserys rule even if Rhaenys was the daughter of the First born son of the King. Simply as king you choose your second son(Viserys and Daemon's father) over the daughter of your first son, and even if she has a male heir(Laenor), that heir has precedence only on his sisters but not his cousins generated from the the male side of the dynasty. So yes a bit hypocrisy. Not only the king couldn't bypass Daemon for Rhaenyra, but once Aegon was born, he should had make him the heir, than Aemon, than Daemon. Had been Daemon the heartless bastard many snakes lords believed, he could have moved war to his brother for what he did with Rhaenyra succession(before Viserys had Kids with Alicent). If Rhaenyra has claim to the throne, then Rhaenys should be Queen before anyone else. If Rhaenys has no claim, than neither Rhaenyra has, and Aegon is the rightfully heir. Even if you dislike the greens, that is what logic takes. Vaemond was stupid and died, but from his POV, his anger was completely justified, if for today's standards lol.
Problem is that all the lords and nobles swore that Rhaenyra would be heir and that was never rescinded by Viserys and was made clear that Aegon being born is irrelevant. Rhaenyra making stupid decisions is irrelevant if Viserys never rescinds his decision. So they're all agreeing that they would do this. The fact is that the king of Westeros is supposed to have near unlimited authority unlike the British monarchy. It is hypocritical that Viserys names Rhaenyra as heir when he only became king due to male preference, but he's the king. Jahaerys could have chosen Rhaenys' line to be king, but he let the lords vote on it.
Rhaenyra would have to murder Aegon II and Aemond to secure herself because they will always be a treat to the succession. First, because they will be seen as the true kings, since apparently the Targaryens have gone through male Primogeniture since the Conquest. Jaehaerys and Viserys both became kings above older sisters, Aegon II is expected to be the next king. On top of everything, Rhaenyra has bastard sons nontheless... but most importantly, if Jacaerys became King, he would be a Velaryon, making the Velaryons the Ruling dynasty of the Kingdom, not the Targaryens. That would make sense if there were no more male heirs but since Aegon and Aemond and Aegon's male kids (Maelor and Jaehaerys) are Targaryens, it would make no sense to have a change in the ruling dynasty with males still bearing the Targaryen name.
They would be considered as Velaryons until they're crowned as king then they would've been named King Lucerys Targaryen or King Jace Targaryen not King Lucerys Velaryon, King Jace Velaryon
@@yeaaaaa They wouldnt. That's not how dynastic naming goes. They would have become a Velaryon dynasty not a Targaryen one. In Westeros you bear the name of your father's house not that of your mothers (also that in the show is show exclusive).
@@aubreyblack3204 Only in the show. But that's not how it works in real life nor in Westeros. Perception is what matters and all lords in the kingdom would see them as the Velaryon dynasty not the Targaryen. In real life, thats how changes in dynasties have ocurred. That conversation was a loop-hole they didnt think about in the books but that the show needed to address. This further strenghens the claims of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron or even Daemon to claim the throne. They are pure Targaryens not Velaryon (aka changed for convinience to Targaryens).
@@Alejojojo6 i was confused why rhaenyra married laenor knowing her children would be known as velaryons... The show offered a bit of explanation so i went with it
The whole mess could be avoided to some extent if they agreed married their children with each other so not matter what a Targaryen would sit on the throne anyway. But because of Rhaenyra's suspected cheating that wouldn't be case either since her three first sons are said to be bastards. SPOILERS They kinda tried that with the survivors of the Dance of Dragons, but Jaehaera, survivor of the Greens, died in circumstances that sugest she was murdered by some old enemy or even a conspiracy behind. So even if it was the original plan it didn't went anywhere.
Ah no.. The real problem is that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron were trueborn children. Marrying Helaena to Jace would only make her a hostage. Rhaenyra have to kill the boys. All monarch in history kill other contenders to the throne. King Edward killed his beloved brother, the duke of clarence King Richard supposedly usurped snd killed his nephews Henry VII killed those who claimed tonbe his brother-in-law Queen Mary killed Jayne Grey Queen Elizabeth killed Mary, queen of Scots. Any ruler with two brain cells would have to kill their kin for their own children to inherit.
@@maylynbayani I tots agree. Them living mostly in Dragonstone protected the Strong boys. Having them at court would expose them more and the lords knowing and opposing Rhaenyra for her bastards will surely increase. Helaena marrying Jace not only makes her a hostage by the blacks, it could also divide the green faction. Not to mention Daemon. Lol, no way Daemon will allow the Strong bastards to live long and take the Iron Throne from his trueborn sons with Rhaenyra.
I think the mess could have been prevented if Rheanyra took the opportunity to choose a husband she truly wanted. If she was more patient then she could have just married Harwin Strong or whoever else she fancied or maybe even Daemon after his first wife "died".
King Aegon has a competent council. Rhaenyra has Daemon who can be very cruel. Remember his stint as a gold cloak? He basically murdered smallfolk without due process. Rhaenyra though has horrendous decision making skills and seems to be out of touch from the people she would govern. Also, her queenship would always bring forth a civil war. Either from his brothers or from her own children. Who could say that her truebirn children and their peogeny won't try to acquire the throne for themselves? Aegon might be an idiot but his council is competent. I think that would have been better for thr small folk. As GRRM said, being a good person does not mean one will be a good king. Tywin is an evil mother fucker but during his time as hand, the small folk flourished and Jahaerys and Viserys rule were competently managed by Otto.
Jaeherys and viserys both sat in more small council meetings than any other king, Otto isn't the reason for their success. Hell Otto was only the hand of Jaeherys after his second son died at 37 years old...... 😂 Rogar and septor barth served the majority of his reign
Rhaenys; "Men would see the realm burn before a woman sits on the throne." Rhaenyra, Cersei, and Daenerys who all quite literally *burn* the realm and kill millions of people for their egos just to sit on the spiky chair: 🥺
This video overlooks the most important factor in governing, that factor is the concept of political capital. Which person has the popular support of enough people AND institutions that they could actually take government action? Conversely, which person is least likely to be able to govern peacefully? Which person is most likely to lose the support of major blocks of people and institutions to the point that the nation falls into civil war? Aegon always had more political capital than Rhaenyra, from before he was born. Rhaenyra was always most likely to bring the kingdom to civil war. There is a reason why Viserys put on a full court press to produce a male heir, by his first wife. There is a reason why most rulers in history are male.
Personally, I think the question of who was the rightful heir isn't very clear cut, Rhaenyra is clearly the better choice for ruler. She was raised to be queen, she didn't want to start a war with her siblings, and was genuinely a caring person. Aegon was a manchild, he SA'd several people, he formally said he didn't want to be king and then was manipulated into the role by others, and was brash and stupid.
I'll be interested when Mat Pat revisits this franchise again and tries his own hand at answering this. I'm not sure what else he would theorize about Hot D given the end was spoiled by Joffrey/Fire and Blood
I think the end of Dance is suitable compromise, because Rhaenyra line has continued and her son sit on Iron Throne, but legitimate one. Plus that means Daemon's line will continue, which is great.
As a Greeny I am fine with that. As long as no brown haired Strong bastards sits the throne, I am fine. Rhaenyra just needed one, first born, rightful child looking like his father. That's it.
@@redwarrior9100 Im more in team black, but I agree that Strong bastards being king would be unacceptable. Im black for Daemon and Viserys, Rhaenyra messed up big way.
I think Otto's proposed terms to Rhaenyra were foreshadowing through irony in the finale. He proposes for Aegon III and Viserys to be be Aegon II squire and cup bearer, while not knowing that they're going to be the ones to succeed Aegon II.
I believe they both have an equal claim too the throne, in my biased opinion I'd choose rhaenyra bc we live in a time period where females can rule but by westeroes standards it is aegon but bc they both have dragons ig it's a dragon war.
Yeah Aegon II would be the king due to male primogeniture laws in Westeros. Rhaenyra was made heir when Viserys thought he would have no more sons, but he remarried and had four more (three of them males). That changed the game, but he refused to change the succession which ultimately cause the dance. If he hadnt remarry and had just Rhaenyra, then marry her to Daemon, they both could have become co-rulers, setting a precedent for females to one day sit on the throne by themselves without such a shock to traditions, laws and people's values/mindsets. Then we have the issue of bastardy which works further to lesser her claim.
Rhaenya's claim is stronger not only based on Viserys making the lords swear an oath to support her as his named heir, but because the Old King Jaehaerys and Good Queen Alyssane had already passed a law which explicitly says that any man who remarried after his wife died is forbidden from disinheriting the children of his first wife in order to give their inheritance to a child of a subsequent wife. Sons may inherit before daughters, but that is only within the line of each wife. Aemma's line must always take priority over Alicent's.
It's just weird that Viserys didn't marry Daemon and Rhaenyra in the first place to ensure that the throne would remain Targaryan. The male heir would still be a problem but they'd have had a better claim and unquestionably Targaryan children. And all of the Lords agreed that Rhaenyra should be queen, even alicent accepted it at the end until she misinterpreted Viserys.
By the time Rhaenyra was bethroved to Laenor, Aemond was still already married, it's at the same time that they find Aemond wife has died but they were already set with the marriage.
To me, Rhaenerya's children are legitimate. Not by blood, but legally. In marriage and, I would suppose that also in Westeros for its similarities in institutions, there is a maxim or principle that is summarized in "mater semper certa est, pater quem nuptiae demonstrant" that is basically defined in, a son of a woman can not be "bastard" in her own rights because the uncertainty of bastardy (Which is what involves so much negativity of the natural children of men), it is irrelevant. A mother is always known. It is impossible, as a rule, to deny a woman's pregnancy. This reality in Westeros would also see as part of the culture, we almost never see enoughbastard from women, apart from the Velaryons, only the Mormont, which seems to follow this logic that: "If you do not know who is a father, then doesn't matters, they are Mormont because their mother is who she is". And the Case of Lollys; who has a circumstance of pregnancy not comparable and an arrival at the head of the house Stokeworth, supervened. At this point, if you tell me that little Tyrion is the heir to Lollys until she has a legitimate child with Bronn, I would believe it, because the only one who has had something negative against the child is Cersei, the child does not have the same social shadow of bastardy that I have noticed. But, anyway, the other point of the principle is "pater quem nuptiae demonstrant", and it is more important and refers to male heritage. And this principle describes that every child born within a marriage is understood to be the husband's, unless he denies them. And this is the important thing, denial is fundamental. If a husband does not deny his wife's children, they are considered legitimate in principle, as was the case here. (There are cases of other heirs making the porst-mortem rejection of the husband, in the Middle Ages and today, and we saw it in the series with Vaemond). But the reality is that, the husband (Laenor), does not deny the children, the lord of the inheritance (Corlys) does not deny the children, the king (Last legal word, creator of precedents), does not deny the children ... Then what? What does bastardy hold on? In biology, but... There is no DNA test and no court to order it to be carried out because there is no open case due to the lacks of deny of the children... So... Yeap, they are legitimate. The Velaryons children, in our reality, with the marital principles of reality that inspired the marriage of the story, would be legitimate.
If we are going off that then it would be the greens. They have the Lannisters, Baratheons, Hightowers, and a bunch of other houses in the stormlands and a few in the Reach both before and after the battle at the Honeywine.
It’s automatically Rhaenyra up until she tries to sit bastards on the throne. Viserys chose Rhaenyra and you need to respect Viserys if your own claim rests upon your relation to him. By ignoring his command as king you’re dismissing his authority as king, by dismissing his authority as king you’re dismissing your own claim. Right up until Rhaenyra tried to press the claim of her sons. She should never have done that. I know she’s the queen so therefore she can legitimise her children, I still find it treasonous in behaviour. But then again if we are basing the claimant off of their morals then Aegon and Aemond aren’t any better either. I’m inclined to say Rhaenyra but she wasn’t anywhere near perfect. It’s picking between the two evils. At the end of the day the prophecy is about her lineage and her blood so it’s fate.
All the damage could have been mitigated had Viserys and Alicent just raised their kids better, Rhaenyra included... and have Otto and Daemom exiled indefinitely
I never saw the offer to marry Jace to Helaena as magnanimous or generous. Savvy? Absolutely, but it was totally self-serving. In one fell swoop, Alicent would have disinherited her trueborn children in favor of Jaces' legitimization. Given how bastards are viewed, Heleana would have been disgraced by marrying a bastard, too. I struggle to see what Alicent gains. On the contrary, she would lose everything with such a match and disgrace her children (for people who will say, "oh, but she would have averted a war;" at this point in the story, the war is not inevitable, as there was still hope Viserys would change his mind). Viserys didn't care about her kids; Alicent was literally the only one protecting them, and she was not going to allow Rhaenyra's dishonor stain her kids, and disinherit her trueborn sons.
Actually you need to follow the law, cause if you don't follow the law a civil war can happen, In Spain for example the Catholic Kings, especially Ferdinand wanted to named his grandson Ferdinand heir instead Charles, cause the first one was being raised in his kingdom and was more close to him, but Isabella the Queen was clear even The Kings must follow this fundamental rules, cause without laws everything will crumble to pieces, and a war of succession would happen, especially when Viserys was king because the law dictates that the first male is the heir.
The Targaryens practiced agnatic succession from the beginning of thier reign. When Maegor died, by the Andal succesion laws, (where a king's/lord's daughter comes before his brother) the throne should have passed to Aerea. However Jaehaerys was crowned instead, why? Because the Targaryen succession has been based on male succession. There are several other examples later in Targaryen history but I used this one because it happened BEFORE the Dance which could have been used as precedent.
Sadly, it has been stated in the books that Jaceaerys would have been one of the greatest Targaryen kings, equal to Jaehaerys the Old. So much could have been avoided if Jaceaerys and Helaena united those two lines in marriage...
I'm not so sure. I think he'd be paranoid. He's shown to be quick tempered and immediately resort to violence at the mere hint of being a Strong. He also tells his brother that the opinions of the Lords of the realm simply don't matter. Those, imo, are quite concerning traits to have. Especially when the rumors of him being a bastard would never actually stop. I don't think there's really any good candidates for being a ruler other than maybe Helaena. I'd say Rhaenys but she carelessly mass murders a bunch of small folk
By Westerosi standards, or the six kingdoms under Targaryen rule- male heirs typically come first. However, had Viserys married Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne, that precedent would probably go out the window. She also had the backing of half of the realm, so, precedent seems less relevant with each point made. But I think if we were to set a precedent for female succession, then Rhaenys should have been Queen before anyone, if not Rhaena before her.
there are other times when an uncle usurps the throne from the only living child/girl and the bannermen go with it: Euron and Asha. Though I belive that Westerosi in general practive agnatic-cognatic primogeniture, it is not only the Targs that do what they like .. in the end, might makes right or as someone once told us: "power resides where men believe it to be - or something" ~fat dude who´s probably a hidden Blackfire Nice Video! Keep it up
Aegon Targaryen 2 off course because aegon the conqueror Time tradition only first born son sit in the iron throne also ancient Targaryen heir . Conqueror Time tradition>>> king wishes
The hightowers descend from the great Empire of the dawn themselves. This Empire taught the Valyrians to fly dragons. For these reasons, Aegon "hightower" should sit the throne. The targs are by far the lesser house
In the show I think the blacks were driven by emotion and love for each other. They already had the throne and they just wanted to rule but with the people they chose . While the greens(hightowers) were driven by wanting to be on top and to put their line first. They are both bad because never in these motives do they care for the kingdom
Visenya was first born yet Aegon sat the throne, even the Targaryens made it clear that sons first daughters later. Rhaenyra is a terrible ruler to the point that when they've already won the dance she just fucks it up and gives the Greens another shot.
Rhaenyra will always have the best legitimacy since she is the first born ,yes she made a mistake vy breaking traditions but aegon is raping women left and right
@@niraxlevi9930 Again, you need to first address the fact that Aegon the Conqueror became king instead of Visenya, his elder sister. That and Rhaenyra isn't really a saint, she was more than complicit that commonfolk and nobles alike are getting killed left and right because they dare tell the truth of her children's bastard nature.
Jaeherys is literally the reason why there is a succession crisis he’s screwed over the women in his family three times. Because technically Rhaena could’ve been Aenys heir cause she was the eldest but obviously we know Jaeherys takes it after Maegor. Then Rhaena’s daughters with Aegon could’ve been the heir but he screws them over too. And we all know how he screwed over Rhaenys. I can’t stand Jaeherys and he was a terrible father to his daughters.
I’m sorry but you people are tweaking it’s literally the subtle misogyny for me the king is the supreme branch of government and he decreed his daughter is the heir and every lord who serves house Targaryen in perpetuity kneeled to her the greens are wrong period you cannot argue that no matter how badly you people are trying to
Legal arguments of the Greens: • council 101 is a legal prescedent regarding succession • sisters are behind their brothers, it does not matter if they are from the previous marriage and they'te older Legal arguments of the Blacks (aka Rhaenyra's side, as we settled on Rhaenyra, let's accept council 101 as legitimate): • the heir is chosen by the monarch, he can choose whomever from the Targaryen dynasty (Maegor chose his grandniece Aerea even though he had two living nephews) • council 101 is not a prescedent, it was one choice regarding one succession Legal arguments of Blacks (of robbed Rhaenys) • Rhaenys was the rightful heir according ro Andal succession as an only child of eldest son • council 101 is orchestrated by maesters, because the king was old and senile • while we want Rhaenys, we are willing to accept her descednants, aka Laenor's and Laena's children
I know Rhaenyra’s sons aren’t true born but I just think it’s funny that Alicent says the boys aren’t true Targaryens 😂 Aegon II and Jace literally have the same amount of Targaryen genes
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 To me a true Targaryen is the blood of the dragon. Period. All three of Rhaenyra’s kids hatched their dragon eggs. Go argue with the grand maester.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 lol i said i know they’re not true born. but dragons talk power babe. sounds like a hatin’ ass greenie over here 👈🏽 take up with them old ass maesters in old town!!
It's hilarious because if you actually break it down by numbers, Rhaenyra's sons are 28% Targaryen and 23% Velaryon while Alicent's children are 18% Targaryen and 31% Velaryon - so not only are the 3 boys more Targaryen, their uncles and aunt are more Velaryon than them.
There is no doubt that the cause of the Dance was Viserys, if he had never named Rhaenyra his heir, on a pure whim, the war would probably not have occurred. And to those who use the lords' oath for Rhaenyra's heredity: They were bound, if they refused to recognize her as heir, it would be treason against the King. But after the King dies, damn the oaths made to him. Clearly the show is on the black side, they even gave a divine choice tone to Rhaenyra. Which is pathetic, to tell the truth, because the person who ended HBO's Short Night was a Stark, not Daenerys. The show chose the side of the book that demonizes green people and goes easy on black people. They use what the jester said about Aegon (which doesn't make much sense) but ignore what he said about Rhaenyra.
Aegon is the rightful heir coz he is the first born son of the king as per tradition ,Rhaneyra was only named heir due to the circumstances surrounding her mother and brother who died at birth in an emergency she was named , Aegon never wanted the the throne makes him a better option, as Rhaneyra on the other hands wanted the throne and will do anything to get it to make her bustard sons next in line ,that makes her easily corrupted by power but than again one could say that for anyone ,as both of them have displayed recklessness unbecoming of the throne ,I still say aegon as we have only been showed one side of aegon as a reckless young men ,as they have showed him to be
Was she really power hungry? Rhaenyra was made heir in the eyes of every lord, and lady in the seven kingdoms. The North, the reach, the westerlands, the vale, the stormlands, the iron islands all swore fealty and loyalty to king jahearys in naming Rhaenyra as his heir... they also swore oaths to her btw even the hightowers
Aegon doesn’t want the crown because he was constantly told that his older sister would be the heir and Rhaenyra on the other hand was brought up as an heir. This has to do with their upbringing,how does not wanting the throne make Aegon the better option. And from an audience perspective you know they are basters but ppls in the show can never proof it. They can suspect it but they can’t proof it. Because Leanor Velaryon claim the boys as his own and loves them. Also Jacaerys and Lucerys is the legitimate heir to the iron throne and Driftmark backed by Viserys,Coleys and Rhaenys.
I swear toward the Queen, with all my strength and give my blood for hers. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall guard her secrets, obey her commands, ride at her side and defend her name and honour.
Team green, that being said the greens have managed the realm for years without issues. They do end up making a succession law eventually. Personal take, absolute primogeniture male or female, in disputed sucessions a mandatory great council. The inheritor of the crown will take the name of house Targaryen.
@@haridaspalleeri6765 Westeros very nature is nihilistic no one is good and even at the end of GOT things seem even worse with a inhuman hivemind in charge, at least the elites are human. Do fixing the seasons will fix the land no it will not. It's not our world and our world is not fair either, there is not a tradition or philosophy or enlightenment the most advanced nations were not only slaver they were mass sacrificing hellholes. Compared to our medieval word their world is sad and in decay. Asshai is a wasteland, Yi ti is losing ground to anarchy, the free cities seem stagnant, Valyria is gone, Westeros is a mess and the slaver cities are the slaver cities. This is a tragedy dressed as a fantasy. Sometimes i think G.R.R.M. plan in the novels at least is decimate de population to the point of collapse and burn all knowledge leaving the continent worse than ever, because Bran will have all knowledge, a totalitarian children of the forest hivemind controlled empire.
Well the video is not that much gray , in the case of a niece and uncle westros have preference over uncle or it is an ambiguous matter at least at the time of dance of dragon because as I remember in the books bratheon had three daughters to offer to aemond for marriage and he said that because he doesn't have a son ,his sister's son should inherit and complains that why should the iron throne be different? So this is how there is a male preference in westros and when jaeharys casted rhaenys aside and chose baelon he didn't break tradition at least not directly, and in doing so jaeharys legitimized his own crown since he had nieces from his older brother who he neglected and became king over them , but what viserys is doing is totally opposite of that he's breaking the westrosi tradition and he's questioning his own kingship
one of the drafts for Fire and Blood had that happening as well, I think in one she was wed to harwin strong and in another to the Lannister twin she rejects in show; in both vers she had trueborn children and was still usurped by the Greens
@@ofrund The first kings of nations are named by their people. As the ones with the legal power, they can decide how succession works, and they decided on hereditary succession. Therefore the laws of inheritance define the rightful monarch.
@@hrishikeshms1891 The point is that Viserys had decades to declare Aegon as his heir, and he DIDN’T. As the Targaryens didn’t even have a TRADITION for deciding the heir, what the king says goes, and Viserys said Rhaenyra was his heir
@@DavidbarZeus1 The throne passes to the eldest male heir according to the westerosi tradition and Like Otto Hightower said Rhaenrya lost her claim when her father had a son 💯💯
@@hrishikeshms1891 Yes, by WESTEROSI tradition, but the Targaryens are NOT Westerosi, therefore are not bound to Westerosi traditions. They were a brand new dynasty making the rules up as they went. Jaehaerys’ older sisters believed they had a right to claim the throne and lost not because of their gender, but because Jaehaerys had defeated Maegor. Even the Great Council wouldn’t have necessarily affected the decision, as it could easily be argued that Viserys was saying that the daughter of a first marriage comes before the son of a second marriage. Sorry, but the ONLY argument in favor of Aegon is that which has no affect: Westerosi tradition.
For me, it is as simple as this: the king's word is the law. King is a king. The king named his firstborn as the heir. If traditions outlawed the word of a king, what is the point of a king? He can change traditions and laws. He choose Rhaenyra. He also confirmed her children were trueborn and her rightful heirs SEVERAL times in front of many people. He literally had decades to choose Aegon and he did not. All other arguments are just bs. If Targeryens can marry siblings (something that is not a westerosi tradition) and no one cares, then the Targeryen king can name his daughter as heir (also not a westerosi tradition) and people should accept it the same.
Team Breakbones till I drop. He didn’t deserve burning to death. Shout out to Sir Harwin Strong for being decent (been wanting say this; Rhaenyra didn’t lie about losing her virginity. She said she didn’t sleep with Daemon. Which was true)
By law and tradition it would be Aegon. Naming Rhaenyra was just super silly by Viserys because it negates the very precedent that allowed him to become King over Rhaenys. Naming Rhaenyra over his son is basically saying Jaehaerys was wrong and that Rhaenys should've actually been Queen in which case Rhaenyra should've never even been in the potential line of succession and it should've gone to Rhaenys' children
It should be Aegon. Changing that would be a total overhaul of their laws and customs. All the lords have their first sons as heirs not their daughters.
@@TJ-fe7rr I likely didn’t explain comment well. I don’t like Aegon by any means I meant if question is their laws/customs it’d be Aegon. Not that I agree with it
@@katierosealexander8132 the law is whatever the ruler says it is. The faith of the seven consider incest to be a vile sin, but turn their cheek when the targaryens do it. Because Aegon the conqueror and the faith came to a compromise.
Thing is though, by Westerosi laws and customs a daughter comes before a brother - Viserys' rightful heir is irrelevant because he was never a rightful heir, nor was his father or even Jaehaerys who named them as such. The rightful heir after Aenys was his heirs children, Aerea (and then her twin sister Rhaella), but her claim was dismissed because she was 'too young and timid' but that should have then resulted in a regency until she was of age as they did with Jaehaerys before he was of age - the real reason they dismissed her because she was female and Jaehaerys had a dragon and was being lenient with those that had supported Maegor. Jaehaerys was never the rightful monarch until Aerea and Rhaella were dead without issue and even after that the rightful heir after him was Rhaenys as his heir Aemon's only child, but he broke the laws of succession to make his next son Baelon his heir over her - which a lot of people weren't happy with even though they liked Baelon. When Baelon died the matter came up again and it went to a vote, the great council, which made Viserys the next heir - and Viserys chose Rhaenyra and never changed his mind. By the Westerosi laws of succession, Rhaenys is the rightful monarch, followed by her grandchildren - though which grandchildren that is would depend on whether it's the book or the show. By Jaehaerys setting a precedent for bypassing the laws of succession because he was the current king and declaring his own choice as heir - Rhaenyra is the rightful monarch because Viserys declared it so when he was king and never changed his mind. By the precedent of unclear or uncertain successions being put to a vote via a council and the opinions of the ruling houses - Rhaenyra is the rightful monarch because the majority of houses declared for her or abstained from doing so in the war rather than support Aegon. The laws of succession have already been repeatedly undermined, Aegon was never made heir by royal decree and most of the realm ultimately chose Rhaenyra and those that chose Aegon also chose to kill him - so I wouldn't consider them concerned with what is rightful or legal. Rhaenyra being Queen does not automatically cause an overhaul of Westeros' laws and customs, she specifically doesn't enforce or encourage absolute primogeniture among her own supporters (neither did Viserys ever do so throughout his reign) or even declare it so on the Iron Throne in perpetuity and given that the laws of succession had been undermined twice before she was even born then making royal exceptions for the succession of the iron throne clearly isn't going to cause the realm to fall into anarchy. If the Targaryen's can manage to get the Doctrine of Exceptionalism to convince the realm to let them (and only them) practice extremely incestuous marriages, Viserys making Rhaenyra as his heir really isn't that big of a deal in comparison.
By right of succession according to Jaehaerys' law: Aegon
By the word of Viserys: Rhaenyra
One thing is for sure: If Viserys had just named Aegon heir, the problem would've been solved. Yeah Rhaenyra would've sputtered and gone on another tangent about how all men are pigs, but what else is new? Sputtering wouldn't have caused open war.
Dead kings word means nothing...
Or perhaps just bethored Aegon to Rhaenyra
@@jenniferjames3354 Yet another case of: Otto was right.
Rhaenyra F up more by having illegitimate sons, not one but 3 BRUH TF!
@@Mmm-nj5dk Yes, this was the real problem. She'd put Strong boys on the throne. It's funny how people hate Otto for being a schemer trying to put Hightowers (with pure Targaryen features and the surname Targaryen) on the throne, but are okay with Rhaenyra putting Strong brood on the throne.
While Rhaenyra's sons have Targaryen blood, they have no Velaryon blood. Yet Lucerys was set to inherit Driftmark and bescome Lord of the Tides. That is in fact high treason. Sure, Luke was set to marry Laena's daughter and through her their children would have Velaryon blood, but the fact remains: Jace might have a claim to the throne though his mother's blood but Luke is a bastard and as such has no claim to Drifmark. Rhaenyra's is incredibly lucky that Viserys would rather keep his head in the sand and Corlys is obsessed with his legacy...
Corlys had a gay son.... medieval times don't have ivf sooo someone had to father the next generation. High treason indeed but they ignored it because they forced a straight woman and gay man together
@@ayshagaylealso, and people can argue against this if they want but it’s kinda bs if they do, Laenor CHOSE Luke to be his heir. People act as though Laenor had no idea and they try and compare Rhaenyra’s kids to Cersei’s (even though Robert had no idea and, unlike Laenor, would have been pretty pissed off.)
Corlys had brothers, nephews, and cousins. His focus on his name is blocking their rights to their own family's legacy.
I mean, the head of the house gets decide his successor. And Corlys and Laenor agreed. I get the others are upset but that's just the reality of having a head of the house, that they can do probably more than they should
All of the Targaryen's have Velaryon blood, Aegon and his sisters had a Velaryon mother, Jaehaerys' and his siblings mother was Velaryon and that same woman was later mother to Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheon, the latter of which is Rhaenys' mother. Rhaenyra's sons are not biological descendants in the main line of succession of house Velaryon, but Corlys and Laenor always acted and claimed as if they were and it's their choice to knowingly do so despite being aware of the truth. They both also show genuine love and affection for the kids, Corlys even says to Rhaenys that he won't name Baela his heir even as a tribute to Laena because it will 'cast an even darker shadow' over the boys' heads. Corlys is an ambitious man, but he also loves his family, even if some of them aren't actually (closely) related to him, his actor has even said that he wants his character to be devastated and furious at Luke's death in season 2 'because that's his grandchild'.
Treason is a crime against the sovereign and the realm as a whole, the high treason is Jace being heir after Rhaenyra as she is passing him off as legitimate while she's heir to the throne, it has nothing to do with Luke and Driftmark.
Funnily enough if you crunch the numbers, by percentage, Alicent's children are more Velaryon than Rhaenyra's and Rhaenyra's are more Targaryen than Alicent's.
The Targaryen family tree is an infinity loop. It’s honestly incredible this sort of situation didn’t happen every 50 years.
It was stablished that male succession would prevail over that of females after the Dance, so it would always be clear from the start who would be king, no matter the will of the previous king.
I mean, the Blackfyre rebellions happen after this. Lol
Because the eldest son and the eldest daughter always married. Here they didn't.
@@Alejojojo6 It wasn't established that the male line would always prevail over the female. That is just a lie made up by the usurper Viserys II in order to help his steal the birthright of the true queen Daena the Defiant. I think even the usurper's son Aegon the Unworthy must have realized that wrong when he legitimized Daena's son Daemon Blackfyre.
Oh but it did
One thing you and most viewers don't take into account: Rhaenyra is a TERRIBLE politician and diplomat, she always had the advantage of supporting the king and the status of heir, but she managed to bring the situation to war. At the moment when it's time to prepare for the conflict, she makes an alliance with Daemon and their first thing they give the capital to the enemy, and seven years later they wonder why everything has changed in the city and the country is ruled by the greens. This is the most striking but not the only example, her proposal for the wedding of Luke and the princess is not only insulting to Alicent, but also disastrous for her daughter, who in the event of a conflict between the factions will be held hostage by the blacks, and in the event of a rebellion of the lords against the bastard may even die, this wedding would not solve a single problem.
P.S. Rhaenyra left her dying and loving father for seven years and returned for political support (without her father she would have lost), she is not only an inept politician, she is also a terrible and ungrateful daughter who spoils everything for herself, she did not give me a single reason to root for her and her family
Bueno more aún así viseris seguía favoreciendo. Pobre alicent tanto cuidar a viseris para al final no obtener nada para sus hijos
Also, Rhaenyra willingly leaves the Blackwood and Bracken kids to fight to the death seemingly not giving a single shit about them. She also says that the wants of the small folk do not matter. Then when sending her son to make an important alliance with the Baratheons she offers literally nothing compared to the Greens offering a marriage alliance. I think she's more than shown that she isn't any better at diplomacy than her brother
could not have said it better myself
It's heartwarming to find some Rhaenyra slander.
Her having illegitimate sons and calling them legitimate, was also a BAD move.
The series really did make an effort to make the blacks look like the good guys and the green like the villains. The book is much more nuanced.
Yeah no book all the greens in the book except maybe Daeron and Halaena are all pretty terrible people
Alicent literally makes up rumors about a 10yr old Rhaenyra having sex with Criston Cole and left Viserys body rot for 10 days while they were scheming to have Aegon on the throne
Show Alicent is way nicer
Lol the greens in the book are alot more villainous lol. Aemond is just a psychopath with the biggest dragon, Alicent is a bitch. Otto is well Otto. Criston is practically the same. Aegon II is pretty terrible but his bond qith Sunfyre is very admirable. Daeron and Haelena are probably the only likable ones.
@@lonemotheo1964Thats cap bruh.
Is it? Most of the Greens were laughably evil in the books, the Blacks were almost laughably evil in Rhaenyra/Daemon; but most Blacks seemed generally well adjusted.
@@AaronGuest He tellin facts m8. The greens in the books are laughably more villainous. Atleast in the show they're better except Aegon
The big problem is that Viserys didn't choose Rhaenyra because he thought she deserved it and was the best candidate, but simply because there were literally no other Targaryens and because of the Aemma guilt trip. Viserys always wanted his son to be the heir before Aemma death.
I would agree if he changed it after Aegon was born but he didn't
Viserys had two more sons yet he still didn't disinherit Rhaenyra.
@@STARK0181 so what? No female rules after her EVER. Yes she lost that fight.
@@michaelnkomphela8231 Just because no female didn't rule after Rhaenyra's time, doesn't undermine Viserys' decision.
Viserys had 3 sons after Rhaenyra. He could've passed the royal inheritance to any one of them at any point, but he didn't. He stood firm in his decision in Rhaenyra to the very end. This shows that he clearly believed in her.
@@michaelnkomphela8231 And she didn't necessarily lose either. Rhaenyra is not some feminist revolutionary who wants to overturn the Westorosi patriarchy.She just wants what every other character wants, to inherit the iron throne, while honouring her father's legacy.
She does sit on the throne. And although her reign is brief, her son (Aegon III) becomes king , with her other son (Viserys II) as his hand and eventual successor.
Team Dorne for sure. Just sit back, relax, eat popcorn, and watch as the crazy blondies kill each other using their big magical fire-breathing lizards.
And team stark ,they hardly done anything at the dance
@@jeffalver2047 Winter Wolf are rolling in grave now.
@@Sasaaa902 They aren't Starks.
@@edgarrojas5060 What ?
@@Sasaaa902 The winter wolves are only an advance of the northern army but the Starks (Cregan) weren't present in the war until it ended.
What makes House of the Dragon a good civil war story is its ability to make you have to think. Yes, once people choose a side, they will tend to view things less objectively and find ways to support and defend why they made the choice they did. But this happens on both sides As said in the video, there is no clear choice, which is what the best civil war stories should create.
The problem is that GRRM based The Dance off of the War of succession between Stephen and Matilda.
Which was a fight between Henry I daughter Matilda and his nephew Stephen.
Inheritance law would of had Matilda inherit, but many Barons (and the Church) opposed the idea of a Queen, so went to Henry’s closest male relative, aka his nephew Stephen and offered him the crown.
In this case the legal heir vs the an heir preferred by the culture and religion, you can see how they were both able to field large enough support to fight.
However, GRRM made the Dance a fight between a brother and sister. The Kings son vs the Kings daughter.
Westeros law is male Primogeniture,
Furthermore, Jaehaerys Great Council started a precedent for not only excluding women from inheriting the crown (Rhaenys), but that men couldn’t inherit through the maternal line (Laenor).
Yes, the Lords of Westeros swore a vow to Rhaenyra, but 1. This could of been seen as a vow to crown a daughter over a brother, upholding the law and not continuing the precedent started by the Great Council. 2 Aegon had not yet been born. 3 After Aegon was born Viserys did not request the vow renewed or change Westeros’ law to equal Primogeniture.
I just don’t think it is realistic in the world established in ASOIAF, that Rhaenyra would have as much support as she does.
She wouldn't have, especially since nobody liked her as she was a massive dickhead to everyone, especially men.
Según lo que vi si
Except the Targaryens aren't native Westorosi and the practices of their dynasty have been built on making the rules as they go.
There was no King of the 7 realms before Aegon forced everyone to recognize him.
Incestuous marriage is still outlawed in Westeros, but the Targaryen's specifically have been granted an exception due to Jaeharys maneuvers.
Even the great council was an unprecedented event that was of Jaeharys invention.
Viserys could have argued that the council was not precedent for male vs female progeniture but that it was instead a precedent for the a ruling king to be able to designate a rightful heir (in the event of multiple claimants) while he was still living. That was arguably the intent of Jaeharys anyway
@@frosthounded Viserys could also have stated that he was setting a new precedent that the daughter of a first marriage would inherit before the son of a second.
@@DavidbarZeus1 The problem is that despite what people say the King cant just do whatever he wants because you need people to support you and the Lords were never going to accept Rhaenyra while the king had a son. Viserys was a naive and feckless king who really should have known better.
Morally it should be Rhaenyra not because she is more suited for the role but also because she is the eldest child and the king himself wanted her on the throne. But unfortunately, by Westerosi traditions the male heir always goes first no matter how terrible that infibula may be. So their both rightful heirs in a sense. But I would say Rhaenyra’s claim makes more sense morally and Aegon’s makes more sense considering the culture and Medieval time period.
Tradition plays the role of law in feudalist society. What you are arguing is that it is unfortunate that there is any "law" however bad, and that the will of previous monarch should be the law instead, thus you are arguing for the transition to absolutism.
Also she is not morally superior, her morally bad decisions will just come later. In the books they are clear.
Anyway, concept of "rightful heir" is monarchist bullsh*t
@@KateeAngel like is was saying, Rhaenyra is morally more suited for the role as of now.
She was NOT more suited better for the role. The King only wanted her to rule to spite Daemon and prevent him from ruling. There is no such thing as a "moral" right to rule, anyway.
@@misssoso5859 yeah she was
@@dippy8053 Mothering 3 bastard children, neglecting the duties of your status and feminine position, whoring around, acting like a spoiled cnt, neglecting authority and so on are not the characteristics of a ''morally'' suited contender. By her standards she's not even worthy of being a princess. This is a fantasy show, but women like her would've been the type to meet the axe in medieval times.
The writers said 50/50 but then proceeded to whitewash Rhaenyra and make Aegon a disgusting person…
Aegon 2 was a piece of shit, Westerosi history has him as one of the most disliked Kings for a reason.
@@TheSSBBfan666dude was king during one of the worst wars in the realms history of course he’s not favored amongst the small folk, if given time to reign in a time of peace I believe he would’ve been a competent king based on the council (the very council Vissy T had) he had serving the realm. He’s only ever shown to be irrational when pushed to the limits, he doesn’t fly to dragon stone and burn it after his sons death he lays a trap which speaks to his methods of retaliation and concept of ruler ship
if it makes you feel any better the show is what really happened whilst the books are recollections made by maesters who hated the targaryens, so aegon was digusting and we have yet to see what happens to rhaenyra
@@TheSSBBfan666He isn't nicknamed The Bitch Queen or Maegor with teets.
ok and? The whole war was pushed because people were not accepting of the idea of Rheynera being ruler. Lot of shit happened as Aegon 2 was one of the worst kings in Westerosi history and Aegon 3 (Rheynera's son) worked a lot to undo his fuck ups@@lindsey7951
Even if there was no sucession law history shows us that customs in effect basically work the same way, especially in regards to "chosen heirs" who would not normally be heir by the laws or customs and other alternate succession plans. Medieval kings could not really do whatever or kill whoever they wanted without justification contrary to popular belief. The things Aerys II did would be grounds for deposition in most medieval societies for example.
Even if there was no constitution per se the equivalent of one would the consultation and approval of the lords of the realm (The peerage basically) and the realm's highest officers. The Great Council translates to that pretty well and given that Jaehaerys would select whoever they decided on (Even if it was Rhaenys!) and that there were other Great Council's that decided the rightful heir later on serve to prove its legitimacy. Also, I don't see the Great Council as establishing a hard rule but it did set a precedent. The issue with breaking precedent like that is that invites the possibility of anyone with a drop of royal blood theoretically being able to claim the throne. Monarchy and primogeniture are both objectively bad ways to choose the ruler of the country but what they had going for them was consistency so there would always be one rightful heir. If there is more than one person who arguably had the best claim yhen the kingdom is in extremely hot waters, even if someone like Viserys couldn't see it. The seeds of every sucession war are like this, even if they are sowed decades before the war actually happens.
Aegon and his brothers have an intrinsic claim no matter what so even if Rhaenyra gets the throne they or any of their descendants down the line can make a pretty convincing argument that they are the rightful kings. That basically means a war is guaranteed no matter what. Also, their claims existed from the moment they were born because they were born under the male primogeniture system and that also means they have birthright. If there was a Great Council many years down the line they would choose Aegon II's descendants over Jace's. For a woman to have the birthright a law about absolute genderblind primogeniture would have to be passed and the female heirs would have to be born after it was passed.
So yes, while the systems supporting Aegon II are sexist, in the context of the setting he does have the best claim to the throne. When Rhaenyra was born nobody said to Viserys "A new heir your grace" and nobody hailed her on her second name day. If Aegon was the designated heir nobody would have to come down to swear solomn oaths of loyalty to him because it would already go without saying. These might be minor context clues but they are very telling. If woman are allowed on the throne then Rhaenys is the rightful heir. If not then Aegon. If anyone were to look at a family tree of House Targaryen using male preference, male only, and genderblind primogeniture then those are the only two conclusions you can come to for who is heir. This is a huge problem for Rhaenyra. If someone can just pull up a family tree and decisively conclude that they have a bettwr claim than you then you are screwed. The Blacks cannot and do not really sit the throne until all the Greens are dead and even then they follow the rules of succession that supported Aegon.
Was looking for this comment. Great work writing this -- better than I could have.
The fact of the matter is that, royal decree or no, some conflict was inevitable because of the inherent claims of Aemond and Aegon. Factor in the fact that EVERYONE knows the boys are bastards (and the stigma bastards have in this world), and it won't take long for some lord or two to come to the conclusion that Viserys' true-born sons should sit the throne. The only way to have avoided this was to have acknowledged Aegon as the heir. Rhaenyra may not be happy, but there would be little she could realistically do.
@@mikeygigs There would probably be 'claims' further down the line but it wouldn't really be because of the paternity of Rhaenyra's kids, it would be because people have something to gain from pushing and/or backing a claim and the paternity issue would just be the excuse. The biggest factor in the setting it that despite them having all these codes or honor and chivalry, most of the time they get thrown out as soon as they become inconvenient. The reason Westeros (if not their entire planet) is stuck in stagnation so badly is because 'the game of thrones' feeds on the inherent selfishness of the people who inhabit it - very rarely does any of the characters do the right thing simply because it's the right thing, especially when there's a cost to it (Duncan & Aerion for example). Westeros has succession issues constantly, I don't think it would even matter if they were Aegon or Rhaenyra's descendants, the squabbling is inherent to the continent. But if Rhaenyra and her descendants did well as sovereigns then any claim isn't going to get enough traction to actually amount to anything, even the dance as a whole saw majority of houses side with Rhaenyra and a significant amount remain neutral despite paternity claims, the main issue those against her seemed to have was that she was a woman, not that her 3 eldest sons might be bastards.
The Blackfyre rebellions, especially the first, proved that being a bastard doesn't mean that people wont support you. Many houses that supported Daemon bordered Dorne and there was a strong anti-Dornish sentiment since Daeron's wife was a Martell, him being a bastard was less important to them than removing the growing Dornish influence at court. Some supported Daemon because it was advantageous for them to do so, some preferred him as the ideal image of a Valyrian prince over the Dornish-looking Prince Baelor, some of them simply believed that he would be a good king.
If you read the book it's painfully clear that Rhaenyra solely has a claim because Viserys made her his heir. The actual claiments are Aegon and Daemon. Rhaenyra would only have a legit claim if Rhaenys does too, than the actual heir should be Rhaenys and her (grand)children
Ehhh even so that's Daemon's line regardless
@@blitzkrieg2928 True! According to the books (Laena is older than Laenor) Daemon's kids with Laena have the strongest claim against Aegon
She has a claim because she’s a Targaryen and the eldest child of the former king and to add to that Viserys had her declared his heir. The only reason she’s not immediately recognized as the next ruling monarch is because she’s a woman, but her claim is the strongest of the claimants in terms of actual Westerosi inheritance law.
@@Dell-ol6hbNo it isn’t you idiot. He clearly explains in this video that a son comes before a daughter in Westerosi inheritance law.
@@jadeayla7548 - Is Laenor an actual war veteran in the books as he his in the show?
King Jaehaerys should have made Rhaenys his heir after both his sons died. At least he should have been the one to make the decision. There is another thing: The first time Jaehaerys skipped over Rhaenys his sister-wife Alysanne was angered that he chose Balon over Rhaenys stating that his heir should be his previous heirs child instead of another child.
The problem with that is it might imply that his older sister Rhaena had a stronger claim to the throne than Jaehaerys himself. Because, you know, she did.
Viserys's best bet is to invoke the law that Jaehaerys and Alyssane passed which said that a lord could not disinherit his children from his first marriage in order to allow children from a future marriage to inherit.
This is Westeros, the heir of the iron throne should be of patrillineal descent of Aegon the conqueror, not of some minor dragonlord wannabe house like House Velaryon, as it would have happened if Rhaenys was made Queen.
@@magister343 At that point it doesn't really matter though. When Aemon dies, Rhaena herself is already dead, along with her daughter Aerea who died much earlier. Rhaena's second daughter Rhaella might've still been alive, but she became a Septa, which disqualifies her from the succession anyways. Rhaena doesn't have any eligible living descendants, so it really wouldn't affect Jaehaerys' own claim.
And Jaehaerys' 'Widow's Law' about it being illegal to disinherit children in favour of their younger half-siblings really only applies when the first wife has sons. If a lord's first wife didn't have any sons, but his second wife did, the sons of his second wife come before any daughters his first wife had, no questions asked.
@@MRJR-xi4bnif Jace ascended, he would’ve adopted the surname “Targaryen”; no Velaryon, by blood right would’ve ever sat the throne. In the books there are occasional cases of this. Harold Hardyng will do the same if he inherits The Eyrie from SweetRobin. He’ll take his Grandpa Lord Jasper Arryn’s name. Prince Mors Martell was succeeded by his daughter. Her son succeeded & dropped his father’s name & went by the last name “Martell”; the Martells handled every subsequent instance of this, the same way
And then in a decade you'd have Daemon invading to press his/Viserys's claim. The realm would be more likely to support this usurpation than any attempt Rhaenys would have made so in this way picking Viserys was the more stable outcome.
Spolier ahed:
In the book we don't see much of Aegon II as a ruler cuz he gets seriously wounded in one of the first battles and only reappears in the end of the war. But we do see a bit of Rhaenerya and she is a weak and paranoid ruler, but of course the situation could not be worse with the realm at war and the royal treasure kidnapped by the greens. However in the dragon pit invasion she is completely omisse and looses 4 dragons in a single night which turn out to be detrimental for the house Targaryan falling later on.
That is how the history by the Maesters portrays her, but apparently they are taking a different approach in the show and Rhaenyra will actually face Aegon and Aemond along side Rhaenys. Keep in mind this is a battle where Aegon the King would be seriously wounded by his rival and a female. That would bolster Rhaenyra’s standing and the Greens and Maesters couldn’t have that.
@@Jacaerys1 the book is not some bias maester work dude, quit coping. Rhaenerya was a coward and didn’t do shit during the war
@@Jacaerys1 Pure cope. If the show is the real canon, then if anything the histories has been pro-Rhaenyra propaganda than pro-Green; framing the Greens as pure evil with no redeeming qualities.
@@coleheilgeist i mean the books literally written like that, by a historian, so its not 100 percent the truth
@@lulu-vp2yc we get 4 different accounts of dance of dragons and in none of them does Rhaenyra do anything at all. I’m not hating I think she’s an interesting character but it’s the truth
9:10 it's soo ironic and funny. "Strong boys aren't officially bastards", hell yes, nothing about bastards is official 😄 (unless they were legitimized by the king)
Jokes aside, I think that anyone who has eyes and has ever seen a Velarion or even Rhaenyra herself could realize that her children are supposed to look like valyrians and they DON'T. There were literally dozens of people in the Red keep, all the servants who work there daily, guests from other regions, that gives you dozens of possible witnesses which is MORE than enough and natural for the "rumors" to be spread across the land without Alicent or anyone's specific efforts
I think at least book wise since their grandmother princess rhyneys has black hair. But even as someone who’s team black, this was rhaenyas dumbest mistake
@@applefly8 Rhaenys has black hair when she was young, but she started greying early in life. By the Dance of the Dragons she had mostly silver hair, although some black streaks remained. Rhaenys mother Jocelyn Baratheon was the child born in a scene that clearly inspired how the show handled Aemma's death. Jocelyn survived the c-section but her mother Alyssa Velaryon died. Alyssa was the sister of Coryls's grandfather, the widow of King Aenys I, and the mother of King Jaehaerys. Jocelyn's father Robar Baratheon was a descendant of Orys Baratheon, Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half brother. Jocelyn was thus Valyrian on both sides despite the black hair she passed on to Rhaenys.
In the show Viserys and Coryls signed a special treaty that requires Rhaenyra's children to bear the name Velaryon until ascending the throne. I think that would technically apply to all her children regardless of who their biological father was, and could stand in for an official bill of legitimacy.
@@magister343 I wouldn't know if I would call age 50 early
It has been a while since I read Fire and Blood, but I think I remember it mentioning that she developed her first silver streak at around age 20. By age 55 the silver hairs outnumbered the black. @@sodaandstars4389
It was stated multiple times in the show that practically everyone knows they are bastards
Aegons only a rapist in the show right? Also these bastards that are so “kind” blinded a kid because he took their aunts dragon which is normal according to Targaryen tradition. I’m not saying what Aegon did was okay but like Jace and lucerys aren’t the perfect kids you make them out to be, also rhaenyra herself is tyrannical by natur considering how just after her sons blinded her brother, instead of punishing her sons to teach em something she instead deflected the fact her brother was getting stitches in his eye and called him out for treason tryna get him in further trouble, and her dad even ended up supporting her and pushed for the treason stuff even though his son was getting stitched infront of him. Imagine that same exact situation but instead rhaenyra was queen and the person in question was just some petty lord… These kids nor their tyrannical mother are fit for the throne.
JACE DOESNT EVEN KNOW HIGH VALYRIAN PROPERLY LOL it’s so plainly obvious that their bastards, it was only a matter of time before people would have called her out on it.
Aegon is no rapist in the books.
@@louthebot6684 I mean being a targ doesnt really automically mean that you know high valyrian... anybody can learn high valyrian if they have money, scrolls, books, and tutors who specialize in the culture and language
You hate the more kind and decent young men just because they’re bastards. They didn’t choose to be unlike Aegon and Aemond who were rapist, drunk, violent, and psychopaths. Let’s list the BAD things they did and Alicunt’s sons takes the prize. And in terms of Aemond losing his eye, did you not pay attention to how he was holding a rock to smash Jace’s head in? Should Luke just stay and watch his brother getting murdered by his much bigger uncle who mocked his father and Laena’s death? You’re a fool. Too blinded by the greens to actually acknowledge their bad actions. 🤡
@@louthebot6684 You’re being petty and nitpicking just to justify your biased hatred. But does Aegon and Aemond know proper high valyrian? atleast Jace and Luke showed soooo much character of a good future ruler compared to Alicunt’s sons and that you can’t deny.
IF we really do it by the book it's Aegon II hands down. Why you may ask? Simply because it's the Law. The Great Council of 101AC states that males should have priority over females when it comes to the Throne. It's what made Viserys I king in the first place over Rhaenys. So, Viserys I naming Rhaenyra his heir was purely out of whim. The Dance could have been avoided if this stupid fk didn't remarry and just proclaimed Daemon his heir and have him marry Rhaenyra. But when he sired Aegon II and Aemond and didn't change the succession it all went downhill from there. It also didn't help Rhaenyra birthed bastards and stupidly weakened her claim. After the Dance male priority to the throne was never questioned again. Fast forward to couple hundred years.. That's why Aegon VI or Young Griff is a big deal. Because IF it's true that he is indeed Rhaegars son then his claim is stronger than either Daenaerys and Viserys.
The law? The faith of the seven believe incest is an abomination. But turn their heads when Valyrians do it. The law is, who's ever in charge says it is.
@@TJ-fe7rr yes Jaehaerys I put it into law using the GC101AC with the help of the great lord of Westeros so it's not purely brute strength as you say. When Viserys I broke it the Dance happened. After the Dance male progeniture was never questioned again.
@@strongsuccessfulweeb1400 the dance happened because of the Hightower's lust for power, nothing to do with Viserys.
@@TJ-fe7rr such grand and intoxicating innocence
I think it's an interesting conversation knowing how terrible of a Queen Rhaenyera was. Both were terrible rulers. Fire and Blood provides all the answers and what happens and they certainly make her out to be the better ruler in the show.
The show is definitely black-leaning for now
i dont know how long it will stay like this
or if they are going to switch it up at every season
To be fair to Rhaenyra and Aegon both, they became King/Queen during war time, and brutal war and desperation does absolutely bring out the worst of traits in human beings and rulers. And I think Rhaenyra and Aegon II both experience that moral degrading over time in fire and blood, especially when combined with experiencing the loss of children, followers, betrayals, etc. The kind of suffering that would alter and harden a lot of people even outside of war.
I think had either one been able to rule in a time of peace like Viserys, then Rhaenyra and Aegon both would’ve been very different. But I imagine that would also be boring to read. 😂
well it's fair to assume that rhaenyra went crazy after loosing 4 children ( if you count baby visenya )
@mybeloved4231 agreed for sure.. I'm just going off of the story fire and blood where Martin writes how they were both terrible . I loved Fire and Blood and Dance of the Dragons was one of the most interesting time periods.
The only good ruler in the Dance of the Dragons was Gaemon Palehair.
At the end of the day Aegon I earned the crown by conquest. This is the precedent that trumps all. In the event of conflict, whoever takes the throne by force and sits as victor is the rightful ruler.
You want the war of the five kings? Cause that's how you get the war of the five kings!
I’m disagreeing that RT is mature n fair. 16 plus years n still has to go to her demented crippled father to protect her inheritance because she kept screwing up. Her marriage proposals to both Alicent n Rhaenys are all made last minute by her in a desperate situation. 😂
I think that the laws of succession should have been followed. Boys inherit, girls inherit only if there are no boys. Visery's demanding his daughter be heir contradicted centuries of tradition, precedent and law and created a civil war.
On top of that we got a look at both Rhaenyra and Aegon as king and queen.
Rhaenyra was a paranoid, arrogant, coward who did little to nothing for her own faction and did way more things to hurt her faction while also standing by while her rule collapsed on itself. She sent Rhaenys to a battle and didn't give her any backup. She didn't provide any good rewards for her Dragon riders (arguably the most important asset of the war) prompting 2 of them to defect, and when they defected she tried to punish the other dragonseeds costing her the support of the Valerians. And when the mobs of kings landing attacked the dragons she did nothing, causing many dragons to die and later she was forced to evacuate the city where she was later captured and executed.
Aegon on the other hand fought to the bitter end for his throne. He fought in 2 dragon battles and sustained heavy injuries both times. He was crucial to winning the battle of rooks rest and capturing dragon stone. He also reinstated order in kings landing and brought the prophet to justice. Aegon's main flaw was that he didn't heed the Sea snakes advice of handing out pardons to the lords who didn't support him as well as not attempting to tame Silverwing both actions would have secured his victory.
Also Rhaenyra's Strong bastards would have created a power dispute in of it self. If she did come to power, many lords would want her sons with Daemon to succeed over her first 3 potential causing another civil war.
Overall Aegon wouldn't have been a good king, but he would have been an inoffensive king that maintained the status quo that Jaehearys and Viserys established. While Rhaenyra's reign would be seen as illegitimate by many and her heir as illegitimate by many more.
Bottom line, house Targaryen would have been better off if Viserys never bothered fucking with the succession laws established by his grandfather.
PREACH🫡 #TEAMGREEN 🐍
Valyrians may have different inheritance laws though
@DavidbarZeus1 no. Aegon Targaryan had an elder sister Visenya. He succeeded his father as the lord of Dragonstone and was the one that became king despite having an elder sister. The Targs followed the same basic succession laws as the lords of westeros.
@@Paul-te6kb Is Aegon being lord because he was a guy or because he married Visenya though? If Visenya had married someone else, would things be different? We don’t know enough about Valyria to say anything for certain
@DavidbarZeus1 Again false. Visenya was in no way seen as more powerful than Aegon. When Aegon died his eldest son by his 2nd sister wife Rhaenys (who was younger than him) inherited both westeros and dragonstone and Visenya's son Meagor inherited nothing. Visenya being elder meant nothing in the line of Succession.
It’s all King Visereys fault, finally someone knows who’s to blame for the Dance of Dragons…weak and foolish king, he should have married Rhaenyra to Daemond. That the simple but solid solution, instead he became Otto Hightower’s puppet.
No it wouldn't. He didn't want Daemon on the throne for a reason. It also doesn't change the fact that that he would've had sons still.
How would that stop his sons from fighting Rgaenyra??
He should have married Rhaenyra to Aegon like Otto suggested. Very Simple!
I was with until marrying Daemon to Rhaenyra. That doesn't actually fix anything. What Viserys should have done was marry Aegon to Rhaenyra. Or he should not have remarried at all and had sons. Or he should have kept Daemon as heir. Or if he really wanted Rhaenyra he should have made actual legal changes to the succession and passed a law codifying it. There's a lot of things Viserys could have done that would have been smarter
Not ONCE has an elder Targaryen sister been crowned to the Iron Throne above her younger brother before this point. The ONE time it happened, a Civil War happened... AND she placed 3 bastards in line for the Throne after her.
She was already breaking over a Century of Precedence, but she was committing High Treason to the 3rd Degree;
Firstly cause of their illegitimacy as bastards cause they can't inherit titles by law
Secondly for letting them usurp the main line of House Targaryen
Thirdly for letting then usurp the main line of House Velaryon
So while both Aegon and Rhaenyra are BOTH poor options, Aegon has more Legitimacy all around.
Lets be totally fair here. This is by tradition. Do you know why they held the Council of 101? It was a decision by Jaehaerys after his First Son and Heir died, then he named his younger Son his Heir, and then he died. Lords were already building up their armies (at least Corlys and Daemon) to push their, or their families claim. It was blatant there would be civil war and Jaehaerys never specifically named an heir after Baelon. Had he named one, this might have been totally avoided but he did not, then got sick and called a council to avoid a war already brewing.
Viserys named his Heir. There's no if, and or but's there. He had lords swear their allegiance to her. These two situations are very different. The King CHOSE his heir here, where he didn't before. There was no war brewing until Alicent poisoned her kids minds as they grew older. Aegon was expecting his sister to take the crown. The small council only showed their betrayal AFTER the kings death.
The Bastards thing is far more obvious in the show than the books. It's ambiguous at best in the books. There's an argument that Aegon's kids with Helaena are actually Aemonds which would make his kids bastards and both Aemond and Aegon would only have bastard heirs. Directly Incestual bastard heirs.
In the show you have a decent argument for both the usurping house Targaryen and Velaryon argument. However in the books that's not clear at all. So I guess I'll let you have that, however Usurping isn't a crime, that's how Robert became King and everyone lined up under him.
Aegon has more legitimacy only in that he is a Male. The King named his Daughter till the day he died and nobody said shit to him about how they wouldn't play ball till he was dead. Bunch of snakes and leeches.
Consider this. If Alicent, The Hand of the King, The north, the Vale and the Riverlands all supported Rhaenyra, because Viserys Named her. If Aegon, Aemond and her family all stood behind her as they should have, what lord would've risen up? What lord in the 7 Kingdoms would've started a civil war when all the claiments are fine with it. If not for the plotting and betrayal of the Greens, there wouldn't have been a civil war. Prior to the council of 101, war was already brewing. It wasn't here. At most you might've had a Greyjoy Rebellion. Which is fine, that happened when Robert Usurped the throne using his right of conquest and valyrian blood generations back. But no civil war.
@@Holy_Discourses For the future please write in paragraphs so I can address points easier in a more coherent form...What's with people these days using the word "Cope" like they understand what it means when they don't. I'm not "coping" I'm just giving you the facts as they exist in this world.
1. 99.9% of the time a King isn't going to pick some random Peasant. So your strawman is wasted. There's literally dozens of family members in most situations one would pick before a stranger. Not gonna give it more than that.
2. I agree. Aegon chose his own heraldry and changed his familial religion in an attempt to add to stability. Keep in mind he didn't stop the tradition of Brother/Sister marriage which also would've improved stability. So it's not like he gave up everything. Future Targaryens still married immediate family against the traditions and religion of Westeros. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
3. The Council of 101 proves literally nothing. It's simply saying that when GIVEN THE CHOICE. The lords would prefer a male heir over female heir. This is the first and only time they've EVER been given the choice. So I don't see the relevance. Especially since we have the benefit of Hindsight. Which suggests that without the treason of the Green Council, there wouldn't have been a civil war. Only the people who backed Aegons claim went to war with Rhaenyra. If Alicent and Aegon never pushed his claim, there would've been no war. Maybe a lord would've announced his independance and been quickly conquered, but we have no evidence for this.
4. I'm not overblowing the ambiguity. It is VERY gray in the books. There is no certainty to the claims and the majority of the people making those claims are people with their own angle or loyalty. You could make that point about Aegon in the book, I'm not here to argue ambiguity. The council of 101 was to set the record straight on THAT Succession. Not succession in general. Where's your evidence for that? You're incorrect. The king didn't just choose whoever he wanted. His First Son Died, Then he named his Second Son. His second son died and the only people immediately next in line was the daughter of his first son, or the two sons of his second son. Up till this point it was always a First Son and their children who would take the throne. When that was not possible, the Council was called. You're incorrect all around.
5. There is no social contract. You follow what the dragon lord says or he shits fire on your people. That's how it was for most of Targaryen history. It was a system of fear and power not love and loyalty. You're mistaking English lords with Westerosi. English lords could team up and attack the King, he had no dragons. Why do you think nobody ever tried to properly overthrow the Targaryens till after the blackfire rebellions? Dragons, not love and trust. The Mad King wasn't deposed by a large movement. He was deposed by family of the people he killed, who didn't agree with his actions. His murder and burning of people was defended by half the realm don't forget. Your arguments are just falling apart. No war after Roberts Rebellion? The Greyjoys rebelled a few years later and were squished by the the other lords. You know your history? He wasn't chose by the people. He walked in, took the crown and used his Targaryen blood as more a justification for taking the throne than being chosen by the people because of it...
6 .The Civil war happened because of Otto and Alicent. Full stop. If they didn't push Aegons claims, Aegon wouldn't have. Who else would've gone to war over a claimant that didn't see himself as a claimant? If there was a social contract, why didn't all the lords come to the King and tell him they refused to see his Heir as legitimate? Instead half the lords agreed to defend her right and the others kept their mouth shut.
If you wanna come out with some facts I'm happy to have this conversation, but you've offered not much to work with.
Aegon was no better, all he did was make bastards too. Yes his was under wraps, hers couldn't her husband was gay. Having kids was her forced upon duty by her father abd as a woman.
@@TheSandwichMonster
Dude, it was another 25 years since Rhaenyra was named Heir. Most of the high Lords were dead, and new Lords didn't swear fealty. And it was all before Aegon was born.
And Aemond isn't the father of Helaena's kids. Hell, the intro of the show already confirms it, so that's off the wraps already.
Viserys was a fool, what a ridiculous decision. Rhaenyra being made the heir to keep Daemon off the Throne was a temporary solution to a still existing problem, until the King got a firstborn son (Aegon II). Then Aegon would've been made Heir, and no Dance (unless Daemon and Rhaenyra commit some Rebellion/Usurping stuff.
Viserys naming Rhaenyra Heir basically means he admits his own rule was illegitimate, cause by this logic, Rhaenys should've been Queen
@@thalmoragent9344 It's unfortunately as simple as this. The great Council was needed because the kings DIRECT HEIRS died. Several claimants were building up armies and supporters to fight for their claims if need be. Full stop.
This wasn't the case before the Dance of Dragons. The sides and armies were made/raised after the kings death and after Alicent committed treason. If it were not for Alicent/Otto pushing Aegons claim (who didn't want to be king), no dance would have happened. Full stop.
There would have been no war if Alicent didn't push Aegons claim and Aegon didn't agree to it.
Jorah said it best.
Aegon had no claim to any of the kingdoms of Westeros and had no right to them, he took them simply because he COULD.
Westeros law and culture was anti-polygamy, but Aegon said "Too bad, I don't give a fuck about your customs, Targaryens are above the law and I can have two wives if I want them." and the people accepted it because they had no choice.
Westeros law and culture was anti-incest, but Aegon said "Too bad, I don't give a fuck about your customs, Targaryens are above the law, and we will marry our own family if we want to." and the people accepted it because they had no choice.
Targaryens had absolute power, or at least they were supposed to. The existing laws and customs do not matter when Targaryens exist and have dragons at their disposal.
When King Viserys declared that his daughter would rule after him, everyone else should've accepted it as well, regardless of their opinions on the matter or the existing traditions. Anyone that took issue with it should've been treated to dragon fire until they went down the list of heirs to someone that thought it was fine.
Viserys was a weak, toothless, and ineffectual king. He allowed his Hand to run the kingdom for him, amassing his own power and wealth at the expense of the realm, he ignored serious issues that required his attention, and declared his daughter heir without really taking the time to train her up to that role and condition the rest of Westeros to get used to seeing her in a position of authority and power that they must respect. Instead, he decided to spend all his time banging his new underaged wife, whelping some boys off her, and completely ignoring all of the people who started talking about how they took issue with a female heir when he had male sons now. The idiot even named his son Aegon.
If Daemon had been king, and wanted HIS daughter to rule after his death, you can be damn sure she would have. He would've reminded anyone that stepped out of line why the Targaryens were the absolute rulers of the 7 kingdoms in the first place. The mistake was too many weak kings who allowed the self interested lords under them to dictate policy and enforce traditions that did NOT align with Targaryen beliefs. If they were as ruthless as Tywin was to his enemies and Aegon was to his enemies, people would get the message very quickly that even dancing around the thought of disobedience was met with the end of their entire house. Armies can't fight dragons, and only the Targaryens had dragons.
Personally, I think both sides of the Dance of Dragons are fucking stupid. Rhaenrya fucked around her whole life, having a bunch of bastards without even caring, taking no responsibility or even expressing a desire to rule until her father was almost dead. Meanwhile, her bitch ex-friend Alicent completely betrayed her and was too bitter about her own situation to tolerate Rhaenyra ruling. She was butt hurt Rhaenyra lied to her, butt hurt Rhaenyra had bastards, butt hurt Rhaenyra's kids cut out the eye of one of her kids (even though it was her own kids fault for being a shit bag), etc. She and her father conspired together to orchestrate this situation that they KNEW would lead to war and death just for a power grab for the sake of house Hightower and wanting her kids to be the rulers.
All of them acted selfishly. None of them deserve to rule. But as far as "rightful" heir? The RIGHTFUL Heir was Rhaenyra. Regardless of all those other lords' opinions and beliefs, they all SWORE OATHS of fealty to serve her and acknowledge her as heir to the crown. That means for ANY of them to rebel against her, to not support her, or to support her rivals, would be violating their oaths. And that is a much bigger and more serious crime and offense and a straight up CRIME than simply the "custom" of not letting women on the throne.
Every lord that sided with the greens are oathbreakers and should've been punished by death.
Just throwing out the fact that if daemon had became king, he would have ended exactly the same as Aegon..
Edit: how is Aemond a "shit bag"??
@@beeeeeesburyBecause he STOLE a dragon. And not just any dragon, but the one belonging to a recently deceased family member. That dragon was supposed to go to one of her children but because Aemond was a selfish little twat, he decided to go steal it instead. He deserved to lose his eye. And honestly, if Viserys hadn't been such a profoundly weak king he would've punished him far more severely for committing such a crime.
The rest of the family was still mourning the loss of a beloved family member and he took advantage of that to essentially rob her grave during the funeral. It was reprehensible on a number of levels.
Maybe the dragon would've rejected other riders, but we don't know because they weren't even given the opportunity to try. It should've gone to the previous rider's children first.
That is why Aemond was a little shit and a twat. And then after he had stolen the dragon, he came back being smug about it. There was no remorse, not even sympathy or empathy for the loss of the family member, he didn't give a damn. He was an awful person and only became more cruel and shitty as he got older.
@@TheDrexxus dragons can't "go to" a child, that's not how they work. The only way you can genuinely steal a dragon is with something like dragonbinder, and I don't remember Aemond blowing any horns lol.
If dragons could be inherited, Viserys would have ridden Vermithor instead of balerion..
(Also, who's fault is Aemond's smugness? Why would you expect anything less from a literal child confronting his bullies, who bullied him for not having a dragon, after claiming the largest dragon in the world??)
If you are arguing that there is no law but "might makes right" and Targaryens can do what they want because they have dragons, why does that not also go for the Greens? I can't with this logic. If Aegon I had no claim but took the throne by force, why should Aegon II and his brothers not be allowed to do just the same? They are after all Targaryens, have dragons and are therefore above the law. That's the logical conclusion of this "might makes right" nonsense. There is no rightful ruler with this mindset but the one with the larger army. You can't on one hand say that customs and laws do not matter, only power matters, but then turn and around and cry that Rhaenyra was wronged because her "lawful" throne was stolen and the oaths should have been respected. If traditions and laws do not matter, neither do some stale oaths of 20 years ago or the whims of deceased king.
Also Aemond did NOT steal a dragon. That's more show pleb nonsense. In the book canon Vhagar was unclaimed for months until Aemond claimed her, Rhaena never once objected to it and there was not even the slightest mention that Vhagar belonged to Rhaena or that she was meant to claim her. Because dragons don't get passed down parent to child and one small girl throwing a tantrum doesn't automatically meant she is entitled to a boeing sized dragon. Aemond claimed Vhagar and won her fair and quare just like Daemon claimed Caraxes. I'm tired of this biased nonsense, Aemond was the only one wronged that day, he was severely maimed unpunished because of his favouritist shitstain of a father and you think that wasn't even enough? No wonder he became cruel and bitter, because anyone would with a family like this where your own father doesn't give shit about you or your siblings because you were born to the wrong mother.
The Targaryens go through male Primogeniture (Rhaenys was never considered to be Queen, it was his son Laenor who was considered). This male Primogeniture laws is what makes Jaehaerys I and Viserys I sit on the throne. They both sat on it above older female relatives. After the dance, it sat a precedent and never again could an older woman take the throne from a male heir. So Viserys doing what he wants by taking down the own laws that made him king in the first place do not offer him a lot of legitimacy. Aegon II has a better claim.
Yeah the whole queen who never was nonsense didn't make sense to me it was laenors claim that was denied
This is why patriarchy was what gave Rhaenyra a claim to the throne, because of his father who is the most patriarch of all patriarchs lol. I'd been arguing that if Westeros was like Dorne, Rhaenyra wouldn't even have a claim because Viserys or maybe even Jaehaerys wouldn't have been king.
@retro nerds yes it was laenor's claim that was denied at the great council but people are still aware of the fact that had rhaenys been a male she would have been king beyond dispute because she was the only child of jahaerys' oldest son. Also alysanne felt she should be jahaerys' heir.
And also rhaenys' claim was brought up at the great council. It was just quickly dismissed along with 8 other claims and the debate really came down to laenor vs. Viserys. But again, had rhaenys been a man, neither laenor nor viserys would have been considered, nor would the Great Council have been initiated.
In a pure legalist sense, you're correct. In reality such rules had been shifted both in medieval lines of succession; the issue is that Rhaenyra made so many bad political decisions that made her succession very easy to co-opt.
14:23 I would argue you missed two points.
1. Viserys clearly neglected both his sons as he became estranged from his wife. There isn't any time shown between Viserys and either of his sons in this regard. Aemond is more well-adjusted, despite being much like a younger Deamon, but Aegon is basically the first-born son that his father had all but said was never meant to follow after him. No sense of duty coming from a lack of expectation from the primary male figure in his life and Otto wasn't around for much of his upbringing. And there begins the downward spiral.
2. He literally has bastards across the city, that he leaves in horrendous conditions and seemingly has no opinion on it.
So he is 1. a neglected child that became a mess and 2. A callous and/or cruel monster, divorced from any sense of duty or decency.
I still say team green, as I did before the show starting airing, but that has more to do with Otto and Aemond.
If Viserys really wanted his spoiled brat of a harlot daughter so bad to be Queen, he should’ve just abdicated when his health started getting really bad, named her Queen, and merely stay alive for a year or so when she gets established. And before you say “no abdication” that’s BS. Viserys can apparently do whatever the hell he wants by breaking tradition, he can sure as hell abdicate when his health starts failing, to avoid all this confusion
I love how balanced this was. As a team green fan I see a tonne of biased takes that way too heavily favour team black. But I think seeing the overwhelming majority hate on team green without nuance pushes a lot of team green supporters too far the other way. So its nice to see someone giving both sides a fair assessment.
It was a bit light on Aegon though.
Personality wise it's a clear loss for him, Rhaenyra might be a bit arrogant and she's reckless in her love life, but she doesn't do anything that's particularly bad. Just taboo.
Aegon on the other hand is a rapist and shows some cruel tendencies.
Neither is “rightful". Even Maegor had Aenys killed. This isn't a democracy with ironclad rules, the only rule of succession that applies is strength.
It's not sure if Maegor was the one to have killed Aenys. Actually it's not sure if Aenys was even killed in the first place. It's all assumptions based on the circumstances. Aenys was actually getting better under Visenya's care before he ultimately succumbed to his illness. Or at least that's what I remember from the books.
Maegor didnt kill Aenys. He either died of natural causes, or was killed by Visenya to put her son in the Throne.... Maegor was far away in Pentos doing his thing, and when Aenys died, Visenya flew to Essos to tell him the news and rush him to take the crown. If everything, it's a plot of Visenya to have her son crowned.
Maegor didn’t kill Aenys. You’re probably thinking of how Maegor killed Aenys’s firstborn son Aegon, who was the “rightful” heir.
Power rules all.
You dont0 understand what kingdoms work like.
People tend to forget Rhaenyra didn’t want the throne anymore even after she married Daemond. She wanted to quit until Viserys literally got out of his death bed to double down on Rhaenyra getting the throne after he passes. Aegon II was a lot of things but he wasn’t stupid. He saw his mom was foolish to believe Viserys wanted him to be King.
You talk about the show, it's very different in the books. In the show they are completely team black, trying to create a new Daenerys, even giving an aspect of divine choice to Rhaenyra. Which doesn't exist in the books, she didn't even fight for her right even though she was a dragon rider, Aegon II did, just like Aegon the Conqueror did to conquer Westeros.
@@kgbfelipesilveira1 The buuks are gossips biased against Rheanyra, the show is canon.
@@yusufraage8554 Canon for HBO shows, not A Song of Ice and Fire, which is what really matters.
@@kgbfelipesilveira1 The books are supposed to be from the MAESTERS point of view and the maesters are biased for the Greens given the Oldtown connection. The show is supposed to show the more accurate interpretation of the things that happened. Like Aemond in the books viciously wanted to kill Luke but as we saw from the show it was an accident and Aemond was remorseful for taking things too far.
@@RasSimba The show is not canon to the books that make up A Song of Ice and Fire, but rather to the show Game of Thrones and other future HBO shows. That's what I'm talking about. The show changes a lot of things from the canon of the books, like ages and characters that should already be dead. The show version is NOT a version closer to canon when we talk about books, only HBO shows.
Obviously Aegon since Obviously Aegon, since even King's cannot exist beyond the framework of a basic legal structure and Jaehaerys' Great Council clearly mandated the firstborn male son should be king. Viserys himself would not have that crown over a female claimant if it wasn't for that mandate. Majority of the lords chose him, just like they chose Aegon. Not to be mention the Green Coup is justified if you believe the throne was treasonously going to the lineage of the Strongs. That is usurpation too.
No she's the first born therefore the throne is hers ,logically speaking but unfortunately the world she lives in isn't ready for a female leader yet but again someone needs to break the cycle or it'll just be going on and on
@@niraxlevi9930 No, Aegon is the rightful heir.
@@niraxlevi9930 Male firstborn offspring always had precedence because when you rule seven kingdoms you need to inspire a sense of authority, respect and fear. Back in those days it was also important for a ruler to act as a warlord if necessary, and women women were not suited to combat while wearing heavy armor and melee. That's how nature works. Why are the alphas in the wolves and lion packs always male... because of what I just said. The ''cycle'' you're referring to is nothing more than a childish dream, one that has unfortunately plagued our world.
@@niraxlevi9930 male primogeniture was law asnper precedent.
@@niraxlevi9930
Not ONCE has an elder Targaryen sister been crowned to the Iron Throne above her younger brother before this point. The ONE time it happened, a Civil War happened... AND she placed 3 bastards in line for the Throne after her.
She was already breaking over a Century of Precedence, but she was committing High Treason to the 3rd Degree;
Firstly cause of their illegitimacy as bastards cause they can't inherit titles by law
Secondly for letting them usurp the main line of House Targaryen
Thirdly for letting then usurp the main line of House Velaryon
So while both Aegon and Rhaenyra are BOTH poor options, Aegon has more Legitimacy all around.
Depends if you believe the named heir has the right over the first son. He should have had a great council. Or she should have wed aegon or maybe daemon when she was younger. Or she could have married harwin Or rhaenys shoulda burned the greens lol. So many options .
The last great council affirmed that the heir of the last named heir took precedence over the line of anyone who was skipped over when the heir was named. The great council could easily be used to say that Rhaenyra must inherit.
The real clincher though is a law passed by Jaehaerys and Alyssane which stated that no one has the right to disinherit the children of his first wife in order to allow a child of a second wife to inherit instead. If Aegon II and Rhaenyra had the same mother then Aegon would obviously inherit before Rhaenyra, but The Old King's laws made it clear that Aemma's line must always take priority over Alicent's.
The Great Council of 101 decision carry more weight then Viserys made the lords swear fealty to Rhaenyra.
Spoiler*
That's why even after Dance of the Dragon with Aegon III and Vyserys (Rhaenyra's boys) rule the kingdom, they don't acknowledge that Rhaenyra has ever been the Queen. In fact, the succession continue to be male-prefer
i’d argue it’s more that they didn’t want to rehash the conflict that ruined their lives more than they didn’t believe their mother was the rightful queen
@@patrickulas No, their claim to the throne was through their father Daemon. Maybe they did consider her the true monarch(I don’t think so) but acknowledging her weakens their claim. At the end she isn’t acknowledge and her rule is illegitimate.
@@neneray310
Are you joking? The blacks kept fighting for aegon lll cuz he's the son of their queen and heir not cuz he's daemon son
@@akaza4407 sure they fought for him because they declared for Rheanyra and he was their but many including Cregan Stark acknowledged Aegon II as the king after rheanyra died and Aegon III as his heir. They claimed the throne through male primogeniture and continued to enforce that rule of male primogeniture after.
@@neneray310
As I remember, Aegon II did not make Aegon III his heir, and he and Alicent were against that decision. As for cregan, he did not recognize him as a king, and I remember that he called him "a usurper of the throne"
Dude won my heart when he said he chose no one but Stannis 🥺. He is truly the one true king!
Even monarchies cannot function without a basic framework of laws and not just by “it was duh kang’s word”. Otherwise, if a king as influential as Jaehaerys' word meant nothing soon as he died, then why should Viserys' word mean anything after his death? The Great Council was clearly a legal body, in style of the Zemsky Sobor that chose the Russian Tsar, meant to set precedent for all future successions. Here's why : the Small Council advises the king. It does not officially vote a ruling into existence. But Jaehaerys didn't say "the Great Council simply advised me and I chose the king", he deferred to the Great Council's vote entirely. The king wasn't chosen by the Great Council's "advise", it was chosen by the Council's "vote". Which means it was defacto a law making body. And more importantly, I believe Viserys cannot overturn a precedent that made him king in the first place, without illegitimating his own reign.
Just take a second to think how hypocritical that was for Viserys. Rhaenys WAS the rightful heir as Aemon's daughter, but the Great Council chose Viserys because he was a man. They exercised male primogeniture, therefore setting it as a precedent. Westeros is not male exclusive but with rare exceptions the inheritance has always passed to the male son first. A precedent which Rhaenyra Targaryen and her sons happily affirmed when she had multiple opportunities to press Baela's claim, or that of the elder daughters of Rosby, Stokeworth etc, and bypassed them for male heirs. Even when she was winning the war. Ask Viserys II how he felt about Daena's claim to the throne!! I guess the OG Viserys would've done well to remember what Jace said in the show, "a king should honor the traditions of his forebears".
This whole thing about the king's "wish". It is an illusion and completely dependent on what he can and cannot enforce. Power resides where men believe it resides. The kings who succeeded, like Jaehaerys or Daeron II, all understood the necessity of compromise along with force. Viserys had no ability to enforce his decision. Therefore the blame lies on him for going forward with it. Unless you consider Viserys a mythical god, then there was no reason for the Greens to abide by his pie in the sky delusions. If everyone else wanted Rhaenyra there would've been no civil war and the Hightowers would've been crushed. But instead the 3 richest kingdoms supported Aegon.
Facts, I want to add an example, In Spain the Catholic kings had a problem with the succession, cause Ferdinand wanted his grandson that was also named Ferdinand to be the heir of Spain, this because he was raised and educated by him so he was gonna be loyal to him and his beliefs, but Isabella clearly refused, saying that they needed to obey the laws if they wanted that the law would be taken seriously, otherwise a Civil war could happen and this was the worst, so they named Charles heir even if they didn't wanna, cause it was the right thing to do, you need to follow the rules of your own game if you want others to respect them as well
There was no succession law for the Targaryens though. Jaehaerys asking for a vote on who the lords wanted does not make a law
Also, Male Primogenitor isn't the norm because people are sexist, it's because child birth is dangerous and a Queen is more likely to die and send the realm into chaos.
@@DavidbarZeus1 That's correct. Which I think was Jaehaerys' big mistake. He should've codified succession into law after the Great Council. But not having a clear cut answer to who is right..is what makes it intriguing imo. It makes you choose one side or the other based on your worldview. Personally what turns me off the from the Black claim is the arbitrariness of leaving everything up to the wish of the monarch. It's a recipe for discontent and disaster imo.
@@merrittfigure2924 Fair enough, though one Black here has been putting forward the argument that Rhaenyra WAS the lawful heir thanks to a law passed by Jaehaerys.
Aegon was the heir by all the laws of westeros
But the Targaryens aren’t Westerosi, they’re Valyrians and thus have different inheritance laws
But there's a series of established precedence that the laws of succession haven't been followed with the throne since Aenys. Jaehaerys was not the rightful heir, nor was Baelon, nor was Viserys. It's the irony of Otto and others saying 'but the law' when the law hasn't been followed in 80+ years. If the throne has to go to whoever is the rightful heir by the succession laws then it goes to Rhaenys and her line.
@@3MB4R you aren't very bright
@@ChristianAuditore14 Gives no explanation, only an insult.
Brilliant.
The only one who has a questionable heir is Driftwood
Driftmark?
Absolutely
Aegon II and its not even a debate.
1. he's the male heir and per westerosi law the firstborn male inherits. no debate.
2. rhaenyra is very immature and a spoiled brat even as she gets older. she also failed to produce proper heirs in due time. which is scandalous and unseemly for a queen.
now neither of them would be good leaders but Aegon II has the better claim.
For the one true King 💚👑
George saying that medieval Europe didn't have codified laws, especially on the subject of inheritance, might be the most willfully ignorant thing to leave his mouth that isn't Aragorn's tax policy.
The rightful heir is whoever can claim the throne and hold it. Spoilers: technically Aegon won he killed Rhaenyra and claimed the throne. But... it was all for nothing. The greens couldn't hold the Iron Throne even with Aegon's legitimate daughter alive. The King's word is law, lords may challenge it if they wish, if they lose they're traitors, if they win the King was a tyrant, but the King made it clear who he wanted to succeed him. But tradition also holds weight, which is the case for Aegon. They both had legitimate claims to the throne. And they truly both lost in the end. But only one line continued into Dany's time.
Technically she won she took her throne back and even when aegon killed her and took it back he was killed and her son took over so now rhaenyrs blood continues on the throne not Alicents and her sons
@@frederickpaul2530 Rhaenyra took it from Aegon, but like him she couldn't hold it. Aegon won against Rhaenyra. But the Blacks won against the Greens.
@@juliancain3872 Aegon was on literal life-support. The equivalent is winning your living room from a house plant. If anything, she won Kings Landing from Aemond, who (against his own expectations) turned out to be an utter idiot. Targaryens suffer from main-character syndrome. I cannot believe that Vissy T actual thought that he was the prince that was promised. This guy looked his mediocre and dim self in the mirror, and thought he was the right person to save the world from an unspeakable terror. Guy wasn't even a dragon rider anymore at that point. Couldn't lead a raid on a pantry, let alone govern a kingdom. But he though he was going to defeat the long night. He's more delusional than Eminem in a Mariah Carry music video.
@@juliancain3872 I mean with the immense loyalty of the Blacks to Rhaenyra on the book? No wonder.
Numenor in its Springtime, from the LotR books had the right idea for a monarchy to endure, avoiding succession crises. For the 1st millennium & a half the monarchs each abdicated when they reached seniority to a groomed adult heir-apparent. Ruling until death, then expecting heirs & claimants to play nice almost ensures occasional civil wars
I think succession laws in Westeros warped after the Dance, Robert wins the throne by right of conquest but he is accepted as king due to his Targ grandma, then it goes to joff, tommen but also Myrcella is almost crowned in dorne, so I would guess after the dance it became more a matter of who has the power to actually hold their claim more than how good that claim is.
Oh it definitely got worse after the Dance, really showed how far you can get if you have the power and/or opportunity to push with, they definitely tried to 'legitimise' Roberts rule with his Targ blood to stop others from getting conquesty ideas and opposing him. Their laws constantly get undermined and tossed out because of the Westerosi tendency for being inherently self serving, selecting loyalty on
1) would this person being in power inconvenience me in some way
2) would I be in danger if this person was in power and can I deal with that sufficiently or not
3) can I profit from supporting or opposing this person
The Blackfyre rebellion is probably the best example, Daemon being a bastard and basically entirely exempt from inheritance - let alone the succession of the Iron Throne - became irrelevant the moment it suited his supporters.
After the Dance the throne almost exclusively passed through the male line, from father to son, to brother or to uncle. So I would say the succession law the Greens were fighting for was actually solidified
Definitely Aegon, the legitimate son will always inherit ahead of a daughter, it has legal prescedence in Westeros. Viserys was an idiot for not either reaffirming rheneryas status as heir after he had a son, and the fact that Rhenerya barely did anything to form a strong power base in kings landing and prepare for an obvious power grab by the Hightowers proves that she is probably not fit for the crown.
Not only for Westeros, Aegon was named king despite Visenya being older.
She didn't do anything cuz she's the heir already ,he did reaffirm her multiple times for example during the trial of her so about driftmark's heir,during the dinner when he called her son future king,the guards always introducing her as heir..etc the public don't matter they can't do shit as we seen with dany easily burning them instantly but the strong houses do and they wouldn't dare to oppose her if it wasn't for otto and larys so she didn't need to form any alliances as everyone already bended the knee for her and you talk as if aegon gathered alliances ,he didn't do shit only raping women left and right ,both of them are weak leaders honestly, all viserys kids are but she is the best of them as she always seeks peace, she never expected alicent to pull something like this nor other lords breaking their promises but without anything else she is the heir because she is the first born since this is how royalty works ,this is not an election when people can vote
@@niraxlevi9930 if she didn’t expect an attempted coup then it’s on her. She already knew her status as heir was questionable and she knew that viserys was on deaths door, her inability to safeguard against attempts to overthrow her is telling that she would not be an effective heir
Someone finally said it
@@Tayzzy-h2g because aenys first born son
Neither one both of them are just awful people but we all know how it's going to end.
Rhaenyra isn't awful ,she never hurt anyone nor bullied anyone
@@niraxlevi9930 Quickly naming a few things that she's done 1: Mariticide 2:Perjury and 3:Incest like if anyone did these things they are fucked.
@@johnnycornflakes8143 you do know the entire family tradition is incest based
@Thomas Eastman She's no better than the man who terrorized every woman in the Red Keep and used his own bastard children to fight in horrible rings. Both are horrible people, but Rhaenyra was the rightful heir.
@thomaseastman5781Seriously I don't know why so many people look at her like she the next Daenerys. She is more horrible than Daenerys
Westeros is just a replica of how real succession used to work. In order to understand it, you should pay attention to the conversation between Viserys and Corlys about the lineage.
Male primogeniture is what preserved at best a certain house on the throne. Otherwise you have to use the escamotage of Viserys or the one that Windsor in modern times used. That means that you make an exception to the common law and give someone her mother's surname just because her dynasty was the ruling one.
Here we'r facing a huge hypocrisy and the show is making us stay on the Rhaenyra's side because of writing and because of the previous analogy with the Lannister of GOT, we like someone who could actually prevail on Otto, since we had no one to prevail on Tywin when he was alive. I don't know if was also Martin's intentions when he wrote about the Dance.
No King or Queen is or should be above the Crown institution. A small page on a book if you prefer. That's why Charles is King even if Elizabeth wanted William. That's why Viserys rule even if Rhaenys was the daughter of the First born son of the King.
Simply as king you choose your second son(Viserys and Daemon's father) over the daughter of your first son, and even if she has a male heir(Laenor), that heir has precedence only on his sisters but not his cousins generated from the the male side of the dynasty.
So yes a bit hypocrisy. Not only the king couldn't bypass Daemon for Rhaenyra, but once Aegon was born, he should had make him the heir, than Aemon, than Daemon.
Had been Daemon the heartless bastard many snakes lords believed, he could have moved war to his brother for what he did with Rhaenyra succession(before Viserys had Kids with Alicent).
If Rhaenyra has claim to the throne, then Rhaenys should be Queen before anyone else. If Rhaenys has no claim, than neither Rhaenyra has, and Aegon is the rightfully heir. Even if you dislike the greens, that is what logic takes.
Vaemond was stupid and died, but from his POV, his anger was completely justified, if for today's standards lol.
Problem is that all the lords and nobles swore that Rhaenyra would be heir and that was never rescinded by Viserys and was made clear that Aegon being born is irrelevant. Rhaenyra making stupid decisions is irrelevant if Viserys never rescinds his decision. So they're all agreeing that they would do this. The fact is that the king of Westeros is supposed to have near unlimited authority unlike the British monarchy. It is hypocritical that Viserys names Rhaenyra as heir when he only became king due to male preference, but he's the king. Jahaerys could have chosen Rhaenys' line to be king, but he let the lords vote on it.
@@andrewli6606 agree completely
Rhaenyra would have to murder Aegon II and Aemond to secure herself because they will always be a treat to the succession. First, because they will be seen as the true kings, since apparently the Targaryens have gone through male Primogeniture since the Conquest. Jaehaerys and Viserys both became kings above older sisters, Aegon II is expected to be the next king. On top of everything, Rhaenyra has bastard sons nontheless... but most importantly, if Jacaerys became King, he would be a Velaryon, making the Velaryons the Ruling dynasty of the Kingdom, not the Targaryens. That would make sense if there were no more male heirs but since Aegon and Aemond and Aegon's male kids (Maelor and Jaehaerys) are Targaryens, it would make no sense to have a change in the ruling dynasty with males still bearing the Targaryen name.
They would be considered as Velaryons until they're crowned as king then they would've been named King Lucerys Targaryen or King Jace Targaryen not King Lucerys Velaryon, King Jace Velaryon
i think that viserys and corlys agreed that any male heir would take the targayen name upon their ascensiom to the throne.
@@yeaaaaa They wouldnt. That's not how dynastic naming goes. They would have become a Velaryon dynasty not a Targaryen one. In Westeros you bear the name of your father's house not that of your mothers (also that in the show is show exclusive).
@@aubreyblack3204 Only in the show. But that's not how it works in real life nor in Westeros. Perception is what matters and all lords in the kingdom would see them as the Velaryon dynasty not the Targaryen. In real life, thats how changes in dynasties have ocurred. That conversation was a loop-hole they didnt think about in the books but that the show needed to address. This further strenghens the claims of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron or even Daemon to claim the throne. They are pure Targaryens not Velaryon (aka changed for convinience to Targaryens).
@@Alejojojo6 i was confused why rhaenyra married laenor knowing her children would be known as velaryons... The show offered a bit of explanation so i went with it
The whole mess could be avoided to some extent if they agreed married their children with each other so not matter what a Targaryen would sit on the throne anyway.
But because of Rhaenyra's suspected cheating that wouldn't be case either since her three first sons are said to be bastards.
SPOILERS
They kinda tried that with the survivors of the Dance of Dragons, but Jaehaera, survivor of the Greens, died in circumstances that sugest she was murdered by some old enemy or even a conspiracy behind.
So even if it was the original plan it didn't went anywhere.
Sad but true
They are not said to be bastards, they are bastards.
Ah no.. The real problem is that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron were trueborn children. Marrying Helaena to Jace would only make her a hostage. Rhaenyra have to kill the boys. All monarch in history kill other contenders to the throne.
King Edward killed his beloved brother, the duke of clarence
King Richard supposedly usurped snd killed his nephews
Henry VII killed those who claimed tonbe his brother-in-law
Queen Mary killed Jayne Grey
Queen Elizabeth killed Mary, queen of Scots.
Any ruler with two brain cells would have to kill their kin for their own children to inherit.
@@maylynbayani I tots agree. Them living mostly in Dragonstone protected the Strong boys. Having them at court would expose them more and the lords knowing and opposing Rhaenyra for her bastards will surely increase. Helaena marrying Jace not only makes her a hostage by the blacks, it could also divide the green faction. Not to mention Daemon. Lol, no way Daemon will allow the Strong bastards to live long and take the Iron Throne from his trueborn sons with Rhaenyra.
I think the mess could have been prevented if Rheanyra took the opportunity to choose a husband she truly wanted.
If she was more patient then she could have just married Harwin Strong or whoever else she fancied or maybe even Daemon after his first wife "died".
King Aegon has a competent council. Rhaenyra has Daemon who can be very cruel. Remember his stint as a gold cloak? He basically murdered smallfolk without due process.
Rhaenyra though has horrendous decision making skills and seems to be out of touch from the people she would govern. Also, her queenship would always bring forth a civil war. Either from his brothers or from her own children. Who could say that her truebirn children and their peogeny won't try to acquire the throne for themselves?
Aegon might be an idiot but his council is competent. I think that would have been better for thr small folk.
As GRRM said, being a good person does not mean one will be a good king. Tywin is an evil mother fucker but during his time as hand, the small folk flourished and Jahaerys and Viserys rule were competently managed by Otto.
Jaeherys and viserys both sat in more small council meetings than any other king, Otto isn't the reason for their success. Hell Otto was only the hand of Jaeherys after his second son died at 37 years old...... 😂 Rogar and septor barth served the majority of his reign
Otto wasn't a really a great hand to quote from the book "Otto Hightower in the end was accomplished but ultimately a failure"
Rhaenys; "Men would see the realm burn before a woman sits on the throne."
Rhaenyra, Cersei, and Daenerys who all quite literally *burn* the realm and kill millions of people for their egos just to sit on the spiky chair: 🥺
3:06 Rickard and Arnolf Karstark are not brothers. Arnolf is Rickard's uncle. But yeah, the same thing applies.
Surely that would change it dramatically, as it's then a very different family line rather than a choice between cousins.
This video overlooks the most important factor in governing, that factor is the concept of political capital. Which person has the popular support of enough people AND institutions that they could actually take government action? Conversely, which person is least likely to be able to govern peacefully? Which person is most likely to lose the support of major blocks of people and institutions to the point that the nation falls into civil war?
Aegon always had more political capital than Rhaenyra, from before he was born. Rhaenyra was always most likely to bring the kingdom to civil war.
There is a reason why Viserys put on a full court press to produce a male heir, by his first wife.
There is a reason why most rulers in history are male.
The rightful heir is Rhaenyra. The King’s word is law, even if that means breaking tradition.
🧢🧢🧢
Rhaenyra 👑
Even if Rhaenyra became queen peacefully, war would break out once she died, because her brothers would not accept her bastards sitting on the throne
The person who had the better STORY, duh
-Tyrion, season 8
Personally, I think the question of who was the rightful heir isn't very clear cut, Rhaenyra is clearly the better choice for ruler. She was raised to be queen, she didn't want to start a war with her siblings, and was genuinely a caring person. Aegon was a manchild, he SA'd several people, he formally said he didn't want to be king and then was manipulated into the role by others, and was brash and stupid.
I'll be interested when Mat Pat revisits this franchise again and tries his own hand at answering this. I'm not sure what else he would theorize about Hot D given the end was spoiled by Joffrey/Fire and Blood
I can't wait for everyone here who haven't even read F&B, to start arguing over who should take the crown between Daeron II and Daemon Waters
that’s an obvious one daeron is older so he’s the rightful king
Team Green all the way. I’m rooting for eye patch kid to win it all
“Passing them off” is not what she did. Her husband claimed them, which means they are true born. She is the rightful heir.
I think the end of Dance is suitable compromise, because Rhaenyra line has continued and her son sit on Iron Throne, but legitimate one. Plus that means Daemon's line will continue, which is great.
As a Greeny I am fine with that. As long as no brown haired Strong bastards sits the throne, I am fine. Rhaenyra just needed one, first born, rightful child looking like his father. That's it.
@@redwarrior9100 Im more in team black, but I agree that Strong bastards being king would be unacceptable. Im black for Daemon and Viserys, Rhaenyra messed up big way.
I think Otto's proposed terms to Rhaenyra were foreshadowing through irony in the finale.
He proposes for Aegon III and Viserys to be be Aegon II squire and cup bearer, while not knowing that they're going to be the ones to succeed Aegon II.
I believe they both have an equal claim too the throne, in my biased opinion I'd choose rhaenyra bc we live in a time period where females can rule but by westeroes standards it is aegon but bc they both have dragons ig it's a dragon war.
Yeah Aegon II would be the king due to male primogeniture laws in Westeros. Rhaenyra was made heir when Viserys thought he would have no more sons, but he remarried and had four more (three of them males). That changed the game, but he refused to change the succession which ultimately cause the dance. If he hadnt remarry and had just Rhaenyra, then marry her to Daemon, they both could have become co-rulers, setting a precedent for females to one day sit on the throne by themselves without such a shock to traditions, laws and people's values/mindsets. Then we have the issue of bastardy which works further to lesser her claim.
Rhaenya's claim is stronger not only based on Viserys making the lords swear an oath to support her as his named heir, but because the Old King Jaehaerys and Good Queen Alyssane had already passed a law which explicitly says that any man who remarried after his wife died is forbidden from disinheriting the children of his first wife in order to give their inheritance to a child of a subsequent wife. Sons may inherit before daughters, but that is only within the line of each wife. Aemma's line must always take priority over Alicent's.
It's just weird that Viserys didn't marry Daemon and Rhaenyra in the first place to ensure that the throne would remain Targaryan. The male heir would still be a problem but they'd have had a better claim and unquestionably Targaryan children.
And all of the Lords agreed that Rhaenyra should be queen, even alicent accepted it at the end until she misinterpreted Viserys.
By the time Rhaenyra was bethroved to Laenor, Aemond was still already married, it's at the same time that they find Aemond wife has died but they were already set with the marriage.
He never trusted Daemon to be the heir because of his unstable character. He believed his brother would be a tyrant to say the least.
True.
To me, Rhaenerya's children are legitimate.
Not by blood, but legally. In marriage and, I would suppose that also in Westeros for its similarities in institutions, there is a maxim or principle that is summarized in "mater semper certa est, pater quem nuptiae demonstrant" that is basically defined in, a son of a woman can not be "bastard" in her own rights because the uncertainty of bastardy (Which is what involves so much negativity of the natural children of men), it is irrelevant.
A mother is always known.
It is impossible, as a rule, to deny a woman's pregnancy. This reality in Westeros would also see as part of the culture, we almost never see enoughbastard from women, apart from the Velaryons, only the Mormont, which seems to follow this logic that: "If you do not know who is a father, then doesn't matters, they are Mormont because their mother is who she is". And the Case of Lollys; who has a circumstance of pregnancy not comparable and an arrival at the head of the house Stokeworth, supervened.
At this point, if you tell me that little Tyrion is the heir to Lollys until she has a legitimate child with Bronn, I would believe it, because the only one who has had something negative against the child is Cersei, the child does not have the same social shadow of bastardy that I have noticed.
But, anyway, the other point of the principle is "pater quem nuptiae demonstrant", and it is more important and refers to male heritage. And this principle describes that every child born within a marriage is understood to be the husband's, unless he denies them. And this is the important thing, denial is fundamental.
If a husband does not deny his wife's children, they are considered legitimate in principle, as was the case here. (There are cases of other heirs making the porst-mortem rejection of the husband, in the Middle Ages and today, and we saw it in the series with Vaemond). But the reality is that, the husband (Laenor), does not deny the children, the lord of the inheritance (Corlys) does not deny the children, the king (Last legal word, creator of precedents), does not deny the children ...
Then what? What does bastardy hold on? In biology, but... There is no DNA test and no court to order it to be carried out because there is no open case due to the lacks of deny of the children...
So... Yeap, they are legitimate.
The Velaryons children, in our reality, with the marital principles of reality that inspired the marriage of the story, would be legitimate.
As with real life, the legitimate heir in a succession crisis is whoever has the bigger army
Basically rhaenyra would of been the successor
If we are going off that then it would be the greens. They have the Lannisters, Baratheons, Hightowers, and a bunch of other houses in the stormlands and a few in the Reach both before and after the battle at the Honeywine.
It’s automatically Rhaenyra up until she tries to sit bastards on the throne. Viserys chose Rhaenyra and you need to respect Viserys if your own claim rests upon your relation to him. By ignoring his command as king you’re dismissing his authority as king, by dismissing his authority as king you’re dismissing your own claim.
Right up until Rhaenyra tried to press the claim of her sons. She should never have done that. I know she’s the queen so therefore she can legitimise her children, I still find it treasonous in behaviour.
But then again if we are basing the claimant off of their morals then Aegon and Aemond aren’t any better either. I’m inclined to say Rhaenyra but she wasn’t anywhere near perfect. It’s picking between the two evils. At the end of the day the prophecy is about her lineage and her blood so it’s fate.
All the damage could have been mitigated had Viserys and Alicent just raised their kids better, Rhaenyra included... and have Otto and Daemom exiled indefinitely
That is so true . Deamon and otto just interfered with their family and ruin them because they both wanted power
Otto yes. Daemon no
@@michonnewalker4246 Lmao Daemon fanboys are even more delusional than Rhaenyra stans
@@fzzy5739 What do you mean?
Or if Viserys acknowledged Aegon was his heir.
I never saw the offer to marry Jace to Helaena as magnanimous or generous. Savvy? Absolutely, but it was totally self-serving. In one fell swoop, Alicent would have disinherited her trueborn children in favor of Jaces' legitimization. Given how bastards are viewed, Heleana would have been disgraced by marrying a bastard, too.
I struggle to see what Alicent gains. On the contrary, she would lose everything with such a match and disgrace her children (for people who will say, "oh, but she would have averted a war;" at this point in the story, the war is not inevitable, as there was still hope Viserys would change his mind). Viserys didn't care about her kids; Alicent was literally the only one protecting them, and she was not going to allow Rhaenyra's dishonor stain her kids, and disinherit her trueborn sons.
Pero al reino no le importó.todos apoyaron a raimira
You're also leaving out that Helaena would essentially be a hostage to keep Alicent's sons in line
The rightful heir is who the king said he wanted to succeed him and it was Rhaenyra
Actually you need to follow the law, cause if you don't follow the law a civil war can happen, In Spain for example the Catholic Kings, especially Ferdinand wanted to named his grandson Ferdinand heir instead Charles, cause the first one was being raised in his kingdom and was more close to him, but Isabella the Queen was clear even The Kings must follow this fundamental rules, cause without laws everything will crumble to pieces, and a war of succession would happen, especially when Viserys was king because the law dictates that the first male is the heir.
The Targaryens practiced agnatic succession from the beginning of thier reign. When Maegor died, by the Andal succesion laws, (where a king's/lord's daughter comes before his brother) the throne should have passed to Aerea. However Jaehaerys was crowned instead, why? Because the Targaryen succession has been based on male succession. There are several other examples later in Targaryen history but I used this one because it happened BEFORE the Dance which could have been used as precedent.
Sadly, it has been stated in the books that Jaceaerys would have been one of the greatest Targaryen kings, equal to Jaehaerys the Old. So much could have been avoided if Jaceaerys and Helaena united those two lines in marriage...
I'm not so sure. I think he'd be paranoid. He's shown to be quick tempered and immediately resort to violence at the mere hint of being a Strong. He also tells his brother that the opinions of the Lords of the realm simply don't matter. Those, imo, are quite concerning traits to have. Especially when the rumors of him being a bastard would never actually stop. I don't think there's really any good candidates for being a ruler other than maybe Helaena. I'd say Rhaenys but she carelessly mass murders a bunch of small folk
By Westerosi standards, or the six kingdoms under Targaryen rule- male heirs typically come first. However, had Viserys married Rhaenyra to the Prince of Dorne, that precedent would probably go out the window. She also had the backing of half of the realm, so, precedent seems less relevant with each point made. But I think if we were to set a precedent for female succession, then Rhaenys should have been Queen before anyone, if not Rhaena before her.
#TeamSmallFolk for sure
there are other times when an uncle usurps the throne from the only living child/girl and the bannermen go with it:
Euron and Asha.
Though I belive that Westerosi in general practive agnatic-cognatic primogeniture, it is not only the Targs that do what they like .. in the end, might makes right or as someone once told us:
"power resides where men believe it to be - or something" ~fat dude who´s probably a hidden Blackfire
Nice Video! Keep it up
Aegon Targaryen 2 off course because aegon the conqueror Time tradition only first born son sit in the iron throne also ancient Targaryen heir . Conqueror Time tradition>>> king wishes
Sorry, but a tradition that has only been applied, what, all of ONE time isn't an actual tradition.
The hightowers descend from the great Empire of the dawn themselves. This Empire taught the Valyrians to fly dragons. For these reasons, Aegon "hightower" should sit the throne. The targs are by far the lesser house
In the show I think the blacks were driven by emotion and love for each other. They already had the throne and they just wanted to rule but with the people they chose . While the greens(hightowers) were driven by wanting to be on top and to put their line first.
They are both bad because never in these motives do they care for the kingdom
Personally I think Aegon has the best legitimacy, but Rhaenyra would be a far better ruler. Plus Rhaenyra was born first and named heir first.
Visenya was first born yet Aegon sat the throne, even the Targaryens made it clear that sons first daughters later. Rhaenyra is a terrible ruler to the point that when they've already won the dance she just fucks it up and gives the Greens another shot.
Rhaenyra will always have the best legitimacy since she is the first born ,yes she made a mistake vy breaking traditions but aegon is raping women left and right
@@niraxlevi9930 Again, you need to first address the fact that Aegon the Conqueror became king instead of Visenya, his elder sister. That and Rhaenyra isn't really a saint, she was more than complicit that commonfolk and nobles alike are getting killed left and right because they dare tell the truth of her children's bastard nature.
@@Tayzzy-h2g also king aegon the conqueror accept faith of the seven religion all tradition>>>>>> viserys wishes
She was literally called queen maegor with tits! she was hated in kingslanding to the point that she had to flee.
Jaeherys is literally the reason why there is a succession crisis he’s screwed over the women in his family three times. Because technically Rhaena could’ve been Aenys heir cause she was the eldest but obviously we know Jaeherys takes it after Maegor. Then Rhaena’s daughters with Aegon could’ve been the heir but he screws them over too. And we all know how he screwed over Rhaenys. I can’t stand Jaeherys and he was a terrible father to his daughters.
I’m sorry but you people are tweaking it’s literally the subtle misogyny for me the king is the supreme branch of government and he decreed his daughter is the heir and every lord who serves house Targaryen in perpetuity kneeled to her the greens are wrong period you cannot argue that no matter how badly you people are trying to
lol, none of them are wrong nor right
Legal arguments of the Greens:
• council 101 is a legal prescedent regarding succession
• sisters are behind their brothers, it does not matter if they are from the previous marriage and they'te older
Legal arguments of the Blacks (aka Rhaenyra's side, as we settled on Rhaenyra, let's accept council 101 as legitimate):
• the heir is chosen by the monarch, he can choose whomever from the Targaryen dynasty (Maegor chose his grandniece Aerea even though he had two living nephews)
• council 101 is not a prescedent, it was one choice regarding one succession
Legal arguments of Blacks (of robbed Rhaenys)
• Rhaenys was the rightful heir according ro Andal succession as an only child of eldest son
• council 101 is orchestrated by maesters, because the king was old and senile
• while we want Rhaenys, we are willing to accept her descednants, aka Laenor's and Laena's children
Rhaenyra is the true and rightful heir
I know Rhaenyra’s sons aren’t true born but I just think it’s funny that Alicent says the boys aren’t true Targaryens 😂 Aegon II and Jace literally have the same amount of Targaryen genes
They're bastards, who haven't been legitimised. True Targaryen's meaning Legit Targaryen's.
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 To me a true Targaryen is the blood of the dragon. Period. All three of Rhaenyra’s kids hatched their dragon eggs. Go argue with the grand maester.
@@alexaheure560 I was just explaining what she meant, relax...
@@nonjabulomangoro1871 lol i said i know they’re not true born. but dragons talk power babe. sounds like a hatin’ ass greenie over here 👈🏽 take up with them old ass maesters in old town!!
It's hilarious because if you actually break it down by numbers, Rhaenyra's sons are 28% Targaryen and 23% Velaryon while Alicent's children are 18% Targaryen and 31% Velaryon - so not only are the 3 boys more Targaryen, their uncles and aunt are more Velaryon than them.
There is no doubt that the cause of the Dance was Viserys, if he had never named Rhaenyra his heir, on a pure whim, the war would probably not have occurred. And to those who use the lords' oath for Rhaenyra's heredity: They were bound, if they refused to recognize her as heir, it would be treason against the King. But after the King dies, damn the oaths made to him.
Clearly the show is on the black side, they even gave a divine choice tone to Rhaenyra.
Which is pathetic, to tell the truth, because the person who ended HBO's Short Night was a Stark, not Daenerys.
The show chose the side of the book that demonizes green people and goes easy on black people. They use what the jester said about Aegon (which doesn't make much sense) but ignore what he said about Rhaenyra.
This guy is funny, I love your videos mate
Aegon is the rightful heir coz he is the first born son of the king as per tradition ,Rhaneyra was only named heir due to the circumstances surrounding her mother and brother who died at birth in an emergency she was named , Aegon never wanted the the throne makes him a better option, as Rhaneyra on the other hands wanted the throne and will do anything to get it to make her bustard sons next in line ,that makes her easily corrupted by power but than again one could say that for anyone ,as both of them have displayed recklessness unbecoming of the throne ,I still say aegon as we have only been showed one side of aegon as a reckless young men ,as they have showed him to be
Was she really power hungry? Rhaenyra was made heir in the eyes of every lord, and lady in the seven kingdoms. The North, the reach, the westerlands, the vale, the stormlands, the iron islands all swore fealty and loyalty to king jahearys in naming Rhaenyra as his heir... they also swore oaths to her btw even the hightowers
viserys*
@@yeaaaaa very true but the circumstances surrounding the reason she was named ,the council forced the kings hand and tradition would say otherwise
The question is: why didn't Viserys disinherit her after fathering two more sons??
Viserys stood firm in having Rhaenyra as his heir to the very end.
Aegon doesn’t want the crown because he was constantly told that his older sister would be the heir and Rhaenyra on the other hand was brought up as an heir. This has to do with their upbringing,how does not wanting the throne make Aegon the better option. And from an audience perspective you know they are basters but ppls in the show can never proof it. They can suspect it but they can’t proof it. Because Leanor Velaryon claim the boys as his own and loves them. Also Jacaerys and Lucerys is the legitimate heir to the iron throne and Driftmark backed by Viserys,Coleys and Rhaenys.
I swear toward the Queen, with all my strength and give my blood for hers. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall guard her secrets, obey her commands, ride at her side and defend her name and honour.
Team green, that being said the greens have managed the realm for years without issues.
They do end up making a succession law eventually. Personal take, absolute primogeniture male or female, in disputed sucessions a mandatory great council. The inheritor of the crown will take the name of house Targaryen.
without issues is debatable. They've continued how it always has been. Elitist, marginalized shithole for poor people.
@@haridaspalleeri6765 Westeros very nature is nihilistic no one is good and even at the end of GOT things seem even worse with a inhuman hivemind in charge, at least the elites are human. Do fixing the seasons will fix the land no it will not. It's not our world and our world is not fair either, there is not a tradition or philosophy or enlightenment the most advanced nations were not only slaver they were mass sacrificing hellholes. Compared to our medieval word their world is sad and in decay. Asshai is a wasteland, Yi ti is losing ground to anarchy, the free cities seem stagnant, Valyria is gone, Westeros is a mess and the slaver cities are the slaver cities. This is a tragedy dressed as a fantasy. Sometimes i think G.R.R.M. plan in the novels at least is decimate de population to the point of collapse and burn all knowledge leaving the continent worse than ever, because Bran will have all knowledge, a totalitarian children of the forest hivemind controlled empire.
Well the video is not that much gray , in the case of a niece and uncle westros have preference over uncle or it is an ambiguous matter at least at the time of dance of dragon because as I remember in the books bratheon had three daughters to offer to aemond for marriage and he said that because he doesn't have a son ,his sister's son should inherit and complains that why should the iron throne be different? So this is how there is a male preference in westros and when jaeharys casted rhaenys aside and chose baelon he didn't break tradition at least not directly, and in doing so jaeharys legitimized his own crown since he had nieces from his older brother who he neglected and became king over them , but what viserys is doing is totally opposite of that he's breaking the westrosi tradition and he's questioning his own kingship
Even if Rhaenyra had legit sons with Laenor the Greens would still Usurp the throne which is tuff.
one of the drafts for Fire and Blood had that happening as well, I think in one she was wed to harwin strong and in another to the Lannister twin she rejects in show; in both vers she had trueborn children and was still usurped by the Greens
When you know that neither has a rightful claim, because no one is ever "rightfully" a monarch.
Tell that to the laws of monarchy
@@DavidbarZeus1 Hey I too can sign a piece of paper that says "I am ruler of all" oh look so much rights
@@ofrund The first kings of nations are named by their people. As the ones with the legal power, they can decide how succession works, and they decided on hereditary succession. Therefore the laws of inheritance define the rightful monarch.
@@DavidbarZeus1 Are you, unironically defending monarchy mate?
If so, how can you speak with a boot shoved up so deep in your throat. Impressive.
AEGON AND AEMOND HAVE MORE CLAIM THAN RHAENERYA 💯💯
Tell that to Viserys
@@DavidbarZeus1He is already dead or else I would had tell him
@@hrishikeshms1891 The point is that Viserys had decades to declare Aegon as his heir, and he DIDN’T. As the Targaryens didn’t even have a TRADITION for deciding the heir, what the king says goes, and Viserys said Rhaenyra was his heir
@@DavidbarZeus1 The throne passes to the eldest male heir according to the westerosi tradition and Like Otto Hightower said Rhaenrya lost her claim when her father had a son 💯💯
@@hrishikeshms1891 Yes, by WESTEROSI tradition, but the Targaryens are NOT Westerosi, therefore are not bound to Westerosi traditions. They were a brand new dynasty making the rules up as they went. Jaehaerys’ older sisters believed they had a right to claim the throne and lost not because of their gender, but because Jaehaerys had defeated Maegor. Even the Great Council wouldn’t have necessarily affected the decision, as it could easily be argued that Viserys was saying that the daughter of a first marriage comes before the son of a second marriage. Sorry, but the ONLY argument in favor of Aegon is that which has no affect: Westerosi tradition.
For me, it is as simple as this: the king's word is the law. King is a king. The king named his firstborn as the heir. If traditions outlawed the word of a king, what is the point of a king? He can change traditions and laws. He choose Rhaenyra. He also confirmed her children were trueborn and her rightful heirs SEVERAL times in front of many people. He literally had decades to choose Aegon and he did not. All other arguments are just bs. If Targeryens can marry siblings (something that is not a westerosi tradition) and no one cares, then the Targeryen king can name his daughter as heir (also not a westerosi tradition) and people should accept it the same.
Team Breakbones till I drop. He didn’t deserve burning to death. Shout out to Sir Harwin Strong for being decent (been wanting say this; Rhaenyra didn’t lie about losing her virginity. She said she didn’t sleep with Daemon. Which was true)
Karstarks don't come from the Andals. They follow the customs of the First Men
By law and tradition it would be Aegon. Naming Rhaenyra was just super silly by Viserys because it negates the very precedent that allowed him to become King over Rhaenys. Naming Rhaenyra over his son is basically saying Jaehaerys was wrong and that Rhaenys should've actually been Queen in which case Rhaenyra should've never even been in the potential line of succession and it should've gone to Rhaenys' children
Uncle Daemon, The King That Never Was!
It should be Aegon. Changing that would be a total overhaul of their laws and customs. All the lords have their first sons as heirs not their daughters.
Then I guess you don't support Daenerys or Sansa as queen either?
@@TJ-fe7rr I likely didn’t explain comment well. I don’t like Aegon by any means I meant if question is their laws/customs it’d be Aegon. Not that I agree with it
@@katierosealexander8132 the law is whatever the ruler says it is. The faith of the seven consider incest to be a vile sin, but turn their cheek when the targaryens do it. Because Aegon the conqueror and the faith came to a compromise.
Thing is though, by Westerosi laws and customs a daughter comes before a brother - Viserys' rightful heir is irrelevant because he was never a rightful heir, nor was his father or even Jaehaerys who named them as such. The rightful heir after Aenys was his heirs children, Aerea (and then her twin sister Rhaella), but her claim was dismissed because she was 'too young and timid' but that should have then resulted in a regency until she was of age as they did with Jaehaerys before he was of age - the real reason they dismissed her because she was female and Jaehaerys had a dragon and was being lenient with those that had supported Maegor. Jaehaerys was never the rightful monarch until Aerea and Rhaella were dead without issue and even after that the rightful heir after him was Rhaenys as his heir Aemon's only child, but he broke the laws of succession to make his next son Baelon his heir over her - which a lot of people weren't happy with even though they liked Baelon. When Baelon died the matter came up again and it went to a vote, the great council, which made Viserys the next heir - and Viserys chose Rhaenyra and never changed his mind.
By the Westerosi laws of succession, Rhaenys is the rightful monarch, followed by her grandchildren - though which grandchildren that is would depend on whether it's the book or the show.
By Jaehaerys setting a precedent for bypassing the laws of succession because he was the current king and declaring his own choice as heir - Rhaenyra is the rightful monarch because Viserys declared it so when he was king and never changed his mind.
By the precedent of unclear or uncertain successions being put to a vote via a council and the opinions of the ruling houses - Rhaenyra is the rightful monarch because the majority of houses declared for her or abstained from doing so in the war rather than support Aegon.
The laws of succession have already been repeatedly undermined, Aegon was never made heir by royal decree and most of the realm ultimately chose Rhaenyra and those that chose Aegon also chose to kill him - so I wouldn't consider them concerned with what is rightful or legal. Rhaenyra being Queen does not automatically cause an overhaul of Westeros' laws and customs, she specifically doesn't enforce or encourage absolute primogeniture among her own supporters (neither did Viserys ever do so throughout his reign) or even declare it so on the Iron Throne in perpetuity and given that the laws of succession had been undermined twice before she was even born then making royal exceptions for the succession of the iron throne clearly isn't going to cause the realm to fall into anarchy. If the Targaryen's can manage to get the Doctrine of Exceptionalism to convince the realm to let them (and only them) practice extremely incestuous marriages, Viserys making Rhaenyra as his heir really isn't that big of a deal in comparison.
Are there actually people that are Team Green? Team Black all day baby. All hail Queen Rhaenyra