According to Jonathan Haidt in "The Righteous Mind", when we like a proposition we ask ourselves "CAN I believe this?" Then if we find a single reason, we give ourselves permission to believe. Whereas when we don't like a proposition we ask ourselves "MUST I believe it?" and if we find a single flaw we give ourselves permission to doubt.
As a therapist, I discuss confirmation bias with my clients in relationship to thoughts, depression, anxiety, etc, but many times it comes out as psychobabble. I think the "Liger Delusion" will be much more relatable. So I'm totally "stealing" it (I mean, I'll use it and credit you). Great video!
Hiya, math major here. This is actually a really important principle in mathematics when it comes to proving mathematical statements. In my intro to proofs course, I often lost points on assignments due to "assuming the conclusion". Like, say you wanted to prove that if y = x^2, the square root of y is x. You don't want to start your proof with, "x is the square root of y because...." That should always be the LAST thing you write because the idea is show THAT it's true, not WHY it's true.
I think the question is mainly "how do you know whether there are ligers in your backyard?" You can find reasons for justifying that there are ligers, and you can also find reasons for justifying that there _aren't_ ligers, and... You need to figure out which one is the truth, because clearly one of them is true and one of them is false. And I have no idea where the line is between "looking for evidence" and "trying to justify my beliefs", where the line is between "not believing everything you hear" and "not believing anything you hear". In a world where you're bombarded by both things that are true and things that are not, how do you _know_ when it's okay to trust the thing you're hearing? If one person is saying "there's a liger" and another person is saying "there isn't a liger", how do you know without examining it closely?
And if the answer is "see for yourself", then... How is that any different than "trust absolutely no one on anything"? (something that Hank spent a video ranting against, and rightfully so in my opinion)
Eric Vilas That's a very important question! I think this is where empiricism is helpful. We need to be as scientific as we can be. That means we put trust or value in a belief in proportion to the amount of evidence that supports it. We also need to be rigorous in verifying the validity of our evidence.
Matthew Veverka I agree. However, you come up against the problem of "who do you trust"? Trustworthy people. Reputable sources. Easier said than done. Everyone's biased, but there is a right answer and... which one is it? Do you need to check every fact that you read for yourself, always? That seems beyond impossible, and p much the same thing as "not trusting anyone" which is counterproductive at best.
Here's my pro-tip: if, prior to investigation, you have not first questioned whether you might be wrong: you're wrong. If you have done, and have assumed that you're not wrong: you're wrong. Conclusions come after investigation, not before.
Another fair point. Obviously if you can't accept anything as trustworthy, you'll drive yourself nuts. I think spending a little effort to understand a source's bias can help you separate the facts from the spin. And you can see the track record of "reputable" sources. For example, if the NY Times gets something wrong, they print a correction. So we can read a story and understand that they have a left-leaning bias, but also have an editorial review board and do their best to print facts. Be aware of our confirmation bias, and try as much as possible to be led by facts. It's a constant battle, but it's so important to fight!
Robert Baillargeon I feel that many dreams are hard to tell well. Oftentimes something in the dream that makes it seem profound to it's dreamer is based on something personal or internal(or maybe just a previous dream) that they may not even want to share.
Nothing is less interesting than other people's dreams? Well take this dream on for size: I was in an existentialism themed game show and the grand finale was a question and answer segment, and the host asked me a very long algebra question, I worked on it for a while and when I gave the answer I came up with the host went "Ooh, I'm sorry but the answer we were looking for is "why?", the answer is always why." I woke up immediately after and haven't been able to stop thinking about this eerily coherent comedy dream I had since.
In one of my dreams I was eaten by werewolves, and I didn't even feel bad about it. Might've been when I was depressed, but it wasn't a depressing dream at all... In fact, everyone, including myself, was dancing, and I never dance in real life. The mood, pre- and post-lycanthrophagy (yes, I made up a word, deal with it!) was swingin'.
Other people's dreams can be excellent! My sister has recurring biblical-apocalypse dreams that are basically fantasy movie trailers, involving demon possession, dragons, and eerie smoke-producing pits. I think the key is in how entertaining it is. My favorites that I've had include: -A crusading fiction where the hero picks up a sword made by the devil and becomes the devil's protectorate, told in the style of a dramatic legend. -A sci-fi where humans have made contact with aliens who are the source of fairy stories; they live on a shining planet where everything looks like it has been encased in a sheet of ice, and humans have to wear eye protection from the UV rays -A vampire story, where we have to escape the inner sanctum of a vampire queen on a 9-foot dory, so we have to run across a courtyard carrying a boat and simultaneously arranging the oars and raising the sail
This is exactly why I've become a fan of yours (via binge watching Crash Course in world history recently). Your perspective and degree of self-awareness is award-worthy. Thank you for helping us ask ourselves the right questions
that just made me curious if that's a detail of the dream (that he just knew it was a male lion and female tiger) or if it's not considered a liger if it's a female lion and a male tiger....
I actually LOVE hearing people's dreams. They all differ so wildly. Subject matter. Point of view (third or first person). Colour (b/w or colour). Smells? Textures? It's fascinating.
I often tell people that it's important to think critically about information presented to us, but especially those that we are inclined to believe without question. It's certainly easier said than done, though, and I myself am guilty of the Liger Delusion as much as anyone. But I feel like this is why it is so important to learn how to think critically and do your own fact checking. And it's why, of all the scariness that has come out of politics in the last few years, the most scary to me is the trend of anti-intellectualism and the dismissal of facts and fact checking.
Once again, the video you posted directly relates to a major source of stress in my life. Thank you for reminding me that my conclusion may not be, or likely isn’t, THE conclusion. Sometimes, no matter how painful it may be, you have to wait for the facts to slowly unfold and come out. Thank you, John.
I felt the same way too, Shea! Vlogbrothers helps me understand myself and others more complexly. I can always relate their videos in someway to my own life. Thank you, John and Hank.
The trick to science is to either presume yourself wrong and actively try and prove yourself wrong in your experimentation. If the statement continues to hold up to scrutiny and merciless bashing it can be considered valid.
"Stop speculating" However will media companies make money then?????? Edit : I was being sarcastic. Poe's Law applies everywhere, even in the Vlogbrothers comment section, I suppose.
Great question. But we reward their speculation by listening to it/clicking it/watching it, or else they'd stop speculating. The problem is that media companies give us what we want, and if they won't give us what we want, we will start watching/listening to/clicking on a media company that will give us what we want. And there is no real incentive to be accurate, because predictions about the future that don't come true are not really punished. As evidence I would point to the ongoing career of sports journalist Stephen A Smith. -John
vlogbrothers I think I've reached a certain position where I'm actively avoiding news stories, and purposefully either muting news sites or blocking them entirely simply because of their "yeah we might be wrong, but we were wrong FIRST" attitude. Also, since it doesn't really affect my day to day life, and because even if I was aware of the things going around me, there is nothing I could do except contribute in a meaningless token gesture manner that has no implications in real life. It's better off for me and probably for everyone if I just removed all kinds of news from my life and actively only search boring reports published by boring committees if and only if I absolutely need to.
The Primeval Void Back in the day lol, no really, used to be the Alphabet Channels, (ABC, NBC, CBS) seemed to report honest true need to know stories supported by facts. Then came smaller news agencies who were so hot to get their news out there 1st, they played "we don't know all the facts but...". So the Alphabet Channels felt a greater need to pounce on a story and, if necessary, drop that line as well. Sad. Now you have half reported news that leaves you not only wanting but wondering if any of it really happened?
I don't know... Maybe report actual, objective, unbiased facts so the people that consume the content are able to for a less biased and more diverse opinion of complex matters rather than encouraging polarization... :D
In the last 4 months, John's videos have become really deep. I'm currently going through all of the vlogbrothers videos systematically, and there is such a difference. These ones really make me think.
John, your wisdom and patience are an inspiration. You are, simply put, one of my go to exemplars on how to always try and be a better human. Thank you.
Videos like these remind me that John isn’t just a regular schmegular guy, and he’s also a bestselling author. Honestly if he gave a 3 hour lecture I’d be hooked the whole time.
What an elegant exposition on circular reasoning and bias confirmation. As for escaping the Liger Delusion, I think it begins with humility, in accepting the serious limitations to not only human knowing, but one’s own knowing. To not assume, to listen, to try and understand. These are difficult to practice at the best of times. But a little more of them would go a long way to quieting the rancor, and to building dialogue, which is so sadly missing today.
Of the many things that struck me in this video (and why I want everyone to watch and consider it), the title "The Liger Delusion" is immensely creative!
This video is basically John discussing the difference between what Popper would consider science versus pseudo-science; either trying to prove a hypothesis, or disprove it.
having your opinions challenged can be very scary to some people, but it is the only way you can find out what you truly believe. Don't get mad when someone challenges your positions. Welcome it. Let their challenges shape your view. Let their challenges show you a different perspective that you aren't used to looking from. And don't become so loyal to one side that you refuse to budge on opinions because it would "Let the other side win." This is politics, not football. We don't root for republicans or democrats. We root for America.
I agree with most of it, but the problem lies with the “We don’t root for dem or rep. We root for America”. Because I feel like voters, especially hardliners on both sides, DO feel like they’re voting for America. The idea that a voter isn’t voting for America is crazy. It just so happens that the party’s base that consistently votes for them believes that they will do a better job for America almost always. And the idea that you should let go of your views so you can work with others is inane to me. Keep ahold of your views. If you think there should be $15 minimum wage, then don’t give up when you compromise for 13$ minimum wage.
Of course people are going to think that their party is going to do what's best for America, but I think that we sometimes pit republicans and democrats against each other when I don't think it should be like that. We compartmentalize these topics as "Left views" and "Right views" when we should be addressing these views individually. Also, I never said "Let go" of your views. I said let them "Shape your view." You can learn a lot about your own stances by debating for and against things you don't agree with. I've played the devil's advocate in many discussions. It's actually pretty fun. Also, I don't mean "Compromise so you can get along with others." I mean "Learn from those you disagree with so you can have a smarter, more well rounded opinion." Your mind will change as you grow and you should embrace that. If we kept ahold of our views, we would never change.
Maybe instead of voting for a nation, vote for humanity instead. Not the concrete human population, but kindness, compassion, humility... you know, things that make us better human beings. It might turn out badly, but whatever we're doing right now isn't looking too bright, either, and if we let our actions be dictated by cynicism, we'll never know whether we were right or wrong.
I have a problem with this in some cases because I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor. If there are no wildlife sanctuaries around in a place where Ligers are being kept, then I almost definitely didn't see two Ligers in the back yard. If a man is by all accounts still happily married but has been found to cover up affairs for friends and people who benefit him economically, then if there is what looks like hush money to cover up an affair, think he's covering for someone else. (This is where a "we don't know all the facts" goes, however I don't have a "but," because I do not have enough information and would simply be interpolating President Trump being the guilty party because I vehemently dislike the man, and find his policies not just abhorrent, but genuinely Evil with the capital E)
Ligers may not be native to Central Indiana, but it is far more likely they could be strolling in your yard than you might think - Indy is only an hour from the Exotic Feline Rescue Center in Center Point. This was a wonderful and thoughtful video regarding confirmation bias, but that is literally all I could think about. :)
Hmm. I feel like finding a way to stop The Liger Delusion would be incredibly beneficial to everyone and the discourse they make. I wonder if any psychology studies have been done about this thing; John can't have been the first person to think of it.
There's an old study on confirmation bias that suggests that one way to combat confirmation bias (our tendency to gather information that is consistent with our worldview and ignore information that is inconsistent with our world view) is to ask people to try to imagine what set or standard of evidence would be required to dissuade them from their pre-existing views. I.e., asking "What would it take for you to change your mind?" There might be newer studies out there too!
Oh, that's interesting. I suppose the Liger Delusion is really just an offshoot of confirmation bias. And the “what would change your mind” thing is definitely something I'll do to myself in future.
Personally, I find the best way is to actively question if things that confirm your worldview are true. At the very least you gain an understanding of why people on the opposite side believe the things they do
It's almost scary how much this applies to stuff I'm experiencing right now in my life, I really want to thank you for talking about this, my case is more of a personal thing than all this public discussion about politics and other subjects but still, It helped me a lot just hearing somebody else talking about stop speculating and actually wait until everything is presented.
Me too, although I hope it doesn't become like the Dunning-Kruger Effect where people just use it without thinking, like the internet equivalent of blocking your ears and singing.
Amazing! This is of the basic reasons why we conclude false ideas to be true. We don't challenge our view, we just reinforce our view with selected facts and discard facts that do not match our view. Beautifully explained! Thank you John.
John Green is in either case my favorite author on the entire world! I just loved every single book he wrote! And I would love all of them to get filmed! Greetings from Germany :)
As someone who gives no cares about politics (Especially American politics, me being Canadian) and having a family member who is HUGELY political with a very strong bias and a love of fighting with people on the internet, I've recently gotten grey hairs. How can I pay this imaginary liger from your dreams/nightmares to come eat me and make it stop? I don't look good with grey hair. I don't look good normally, but especially with grey hair.
I really really needed to hear this today. Everything about not starting with the conclusions resonates perfectly with my life currently. Thank you john.
Matt Nguyen The only problem I ever see with being able to justify your answer is meaning you are biased, is there often people have their mind made up not because of fax but they see how they can interpret reality to be on their side. It’s kind of like you can twist the Bible and saying anything you wanted to say
I love these types of video's, they are inspiring. Not just for the commentary on media en worldviews. Also because you had a silly dream, you analyzed it and you were able to make a bigger point about one of the most relevant problems your nation faces today. That is a trait I have only seen on this channel and I am inspired by it every time.
THIS. I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately, so I’m glad I’m not the only one. Funny how a dream about (supposed) ligers spurred this thought process. Love it.
You, John, are so amazing, thank you! Thank you for sharing your dreams, thoughts, ideas, and so much more. Thank you for letting us know that we aren't the only ones who think these thoughts but just can't put them into words so elegantly. Thank you for not falling too far into either extream and instead; searching for the reality that we must live in. Have an awesome day!
What's interesting about ligers, which happen when a male lion impregnates a female tiger, and tigons, when a male tiger impregnates a female lion, is that they both have growth defects. Ligers grow much larger than the average lion or tiger while tigons are much smaller. There is, sadly, no proof of magical powers.
lol they're real but they're not a viable species. All of them are infertile, like mules, so they only exist so long as we choose to create them. And, unlike mules, they have no practical purpose and aren't especially healthy (they struggle with their own weight). P.S. Yes I know ligers have _occasionally_ bred successfully but the offspring are substantially less healthy and fertile again (and so on in the 1 in a billion chance that a "liliger" or whatever manages to breed). Wild liger populations are not a possibility.
The really scary thing is that there might not be a way to deal with this. Skepticism and critical thinking take you as far as knowing what to be skeptical of and how to do so; but they are woefully ineffective if you also don't have the ability to separate true things from false things without appealing to some authority. The authorities we chose color would world view, and in many cases feed into each other in a way that makes getting to the bottom of things actually totally impossible for some people. It is all fine and good to say that science is trustworthy, but if you're someone ill equipped to evaluate which groups that claim to be science are good and which are bad - well... It is entirely possible that this new age of awakened critical thought is exactly what's leading people with poor feedback loops to dive entirely into conspiracy.
The problem with facing your own liger delusion is that the 'others' don't seem interested in facing theirs. Does that mean I will become more tolerant of them, but they will not become more tolerant of me? I don't want to let them win by being so preoccupied with correcting my own biases that I forget my moral imperatives. My Liger seems to be that I believe they do not have empathy. They do not care if we are hurt. Evidence against the 'liger': the (bloody) Thoughts and Prayers that I do not want. Do the prayers mean something to them? Do they actually believe the prayers will help? But what does it mean when at other times their prayers condemn who we are? I'm rambling, not making sense. My Liger is that they do not have empathy.
What would "winning" even mean? That they didn't change your mind? That you convinced them to share your views and opinions? If one has to throw away their ability to question their own beliefs, and are unable to align them closer to the truth, then all they achieved is that more people share views that are probably quite flawed. And even if you adamantly believe you are right, just listening to others and questioning your views doesn't mean adopting the beliefs of others. If anything, it should sharpen your beliefs and give you a better idea of why they are true, and why they aren't not true (if that makes sense). Additionally, people are way more receptive if you actually listen to them. It's still hard to change someone's mind of course, especially if it's on something they deeply value. But digging one's heels in and treating them like some nefarious other will just cause them to entrench their own beliefs, and possibly reinforce any negative idea's they have of their version of "them".
sander heutink Winning like winning an election because their discourse entices voters while "waiting for the facts" can be "boring", keeping others from getting involved and lead to your own inaction. It is much more difficult to carry meaningful and impactful discourse doing it "right", because human. Not saying John isn't absolutely right but you have to be conscious of the impact and circumstances. We have confirmation bias for a reason - we evolved to make snap decisions in an emergency so there is a gut instinct that comes with stressful situations. Sometimes we need that, sometimes we need to supress it.
The assumption there is that the most tolerant person looses. Someone who is being listened to (or tolerated) is actually more likely to change than someone who is excluded or dismissed. When was the last time you saw someone react to being shut down by saying, "oh you are right and I was wrong, I have completely changed my mind thanks to your opposing view point" I'm betting the answer is never (especially on line). So maybe the most tolerant is the most likely to win? ............ Also maybe this comment has no chance of changing you point of view that tolerance looses because it opposed your point of view in an online setting........ DOE!
I've always held or tried to hold the behavioral notion that one's worldview must always be altered if suitable facts are provided rather than mould speculation and opinion to my world-view. The videos that you make in general and ones like these in particular help me to remain true to such a principle. Hope we all grow in this effort and the discourse benefits from it.
This concept has been something on my mind for quite some time. I’ve developed a particularly sensitive “liger delusion” radar which typically results in an increased critical lens on the information or story, but I still have a long way to go before the delusion doesn’t significantly impact my perception of reality. Also, when I grow up I want to be able to communicate as well as John... that is a super power.
I recently discovered that what John talks about in this video is called 'Confirmation Bias'. I watched this video about a year ago and when I realized that there was a similarity between the two concepts today! It's actually a really well-researched topic.
Mr. Green you are tacilty employing the equivalency that prompted Edmund Burke's notable, and now almost ubiquitously referenced, line, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing". In the space where you are waiting for all the facts to come out, being a good person, and not rushing to judgement - as you would frame it - people of any motive, of nefarious purpose, move. They use that time to ensure that the facts, so called, never can come out, or, if and when they do would not be believed, at least by enough people to generally discredit the information; to light the reliable gaslight and let it burn it's flickering doubt into the public mind, and insinuate it's choking obfuscation in layer upon layer of distraction and non-sequitur. Perhaps you believe that at least you or people like you, or close to you, would have sufficient perspicacity to still identify the truth after that poison has been poured in to the well of civil society, and that, still being able to identify some empirical objective truth means anything at that point. At least we can congratulate ourselves for not having been duped, and having given everyone the benefit of the doubt? Meanwhile, history tells us a very different story. In the vacuum, the stasis, of well-intentioned idealism, real people, with real designs on real power and real suppression of those ideallists move without remorse or conscience to all of the facts, or any of them, to close off all avenues of opposition. History shows that this appeasement ends one way: eventually, you either flee or you die. I appreciate trying to imagine the other complexly but sometimes that must necessarily include the acceptance that there are plenty of occasions when the motvation for people or groups of people is to actively and with malice of forethought do other people or groups harm, for their own profit, pleasure or other motivation. You can't imagine people complexly if it only ever means looking for the good in people. People aren't always good. Waiting for all the facts to come out - expecting perfection of clarity in the murky working of human beings - let alone politically motivated human beings with Machiavellian machinations underpinning their intentions - is settting up for failure. It's a delusion; one that, whilst waiting for it to arrive, in well meaning fairness, will more often than not see the hopeful stamped underfoot. Extinguished. The balance is a hard one to maintain, but cynicism or skepticism or both is healthy now. Keep the light on, and hope, sure, but do not expect, and prepare for the worst, the least-thinkable, the abandonment of the next unthinkable norms to be discarded. It's the only way to move at sufficient pace. Waiting for all the facts to come out isn't an option - the story is already writ in bad faith a thousand levels deep by those with no regard for all the facts. *NOTE* I wrote this for myself really, I could go on in ever decreasing circles for thousands of words. It's much more useful to just keep talking to my walls though - I don't expect anyone to agree, or care. Best Wishes.
It always amazes me how they always bring up such subject that one normally doesn't think about and how it is possible for them to blow your mind with whatever point they are bringing up.
I think that dreaming about Ligers means that you will be eaten by a marshmallow. I suppose it could also be a metaphor for political discourse; but the marshmallow things seems more plausible.
I experienced the same problem with myself while trying to understand the Eric Greitens situation. It’s tough to understand things for what they really are when people around you want you to understand those things the way they do (i.e. how your subconscious mind wants you to accept that the ligers are there) and then make your decisions from the limited or misleading information. The way I try to combat the unconscious tone I take when presenting information that I agree or disagree with is to better understand the history behind each perspective. For example, when talking about abortion and presenting the existing arguments I usually unconsciously give a higher tone to pro-choice arguments, and then subtlely cherrypick pro-life arguments for things that said either dumb or just less valid. I’ve grown in this area but it’s still interesting that even the well-read and creative mind John Green has trouble distinguishing what constitutes as fact and what constitutes our pre-existing conclusions that may not necessarily be right. Great video as always.
I agree in regards to the facts, we don't even know what all is. On the other hand, logical evidenced based inferences are vastly more trust worthy than conclusions reached without evidence or logic. Sadly there are plenty of people who come to conclusions entirely without evidence or logic. Just ask any religious person why they've come to their conclusion about god, you'll find conclusions reached without the use of evidence or logic.
Bob Hope sure, when you have a mountain of evidence on one side, and basically nothing but garbage on the other, the choice is easy. But in many situations every day we are all faced with choices, sometimes very important choices, where the evidence is not so obvious. But there still has to be an action taken, and you can't do that without an opinion.
I agree, but opinions and inferences are different things. Opinions are more akin to guesses than inferences. Inferences can be trust worthy based on their evidence and/or logic. Opinions don't have to be based on facts or knowledge of any kind. Opinions are what most of us operate on but opinions are just feelings and feelings are not facts. That is why it's illogical to make a decision based on opinions despite the vast majority of us doing exactly that. Sometimes in life you have to make decisions with out any facts, but don't expect the result to be any better than a guess.
This is why it's so important to reconstruct yourself. To break yourself down and separate what you truly believe in from repeating what we've just heard from others. We have to make sure that the ideas we have are ours and it's not the other way around.
One way to escape the liger delusion is to start life with an insane belief that you hold dearly. When eventually you give up that belief, it’s a quiet constant reminder. “You were wrong. You were wrong about EVERYTHING.” Specifically, I was raised Mormon and am now atheist. My every conviction is tampered with “well, yeah but I used to think I was going to get my own planet to rule when I died soooo...”
I wish, oh how I wish this were true. I thought it was true for a long time. But as I've watched the atheist movement develop an anti-leftist, anti-feminist, libertarian bent, I've had to come to the conclusion that "I'm more rational than most people" is a liger, and "that must be because I learned to critically examine my own beliefs and biases in the process of leaving religion" was never a good explanation.
Matthew Prorok that’s a good point, and not one I thought of while hurrying to type this haha. I am pretty disconnected from the atheist community tbh, I’m not fully aware of those problems i guess. What website are you thinking of? I saw some of that on reddit, so gross.
Matthew: What you have seen is the atheist movement shifting away from the more recent antics of the progressive left, because many of the ideas espoused by many loud voices within that realm have begun to sound a whole lot like the voices we heard from the religious right.
This is why I love the quote (attributed to feynman) "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." I find it a useful reminder on a regular basis.
Don't ever forget that school is not destiny. No exam can dictate your future or your worth; nor could 100 exams. It'll be okay. Drink water, hang in there, and good luck!
I like to imagine the words ‘abandon all hope ye who enter here’ on the door to the exam hall until I didn’t have to imagine it because my lovely friend decided to print it on a sheet of paper and place that on the door which lead to the door to the exam hall. But I don’t think that will help you. There is nothing you can do to escape exams just keep going and eventually you will be on the other side.
"We don't yet have all the information" ... but will keep you updated as we learn more. - that should be where it ends. And most of the time, when I hear "we don't yet have all the information, but..." I stop listening. I want facts, not what fits a political agenda. Damn CNN for starting the 24 news feed, and all those who followed. Funny how we were all fine with a half hour of local news, and a half of national in the evenings, before.
One of your best videos yet! Not that I dislike your content in any way! I have the utmost admiration for you and think you're very wise, but this video just surpasses all the previous things I thought about you! I hope everyone sees this video! BELL BUTTON SMASHED
Despite the stigma on sharing dreams, this has to be one of my favourite vlogbrothers vids in awhile. I great way to explain the concept. Cheers, John.
Kartikey Sharma Usually the animals are raised in the same enviroment with each other so to them there is no difference. Otherwise it's through IVF. Also a male tiger and female lion's offspring is called a tigon.
Getting them to breed is fairly easy; they will at least sometime mate if they share a cage. If the genders are switched you get a tigon, which is actually quite different from a liger as tigers and lions store different information in the respective sex chromosomes.
Male tiger and female lion makes a tigon, which is substantially smaller than a normal tiger or lion. It has to do with an evolutionary arms race: male lions benefit from having larger offspring, but lionesses benefit from smaller or normal size offspring which require less care. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism (probably epigenetic rather than Mendelian inheritance) but the DNA from the father codes for larger growth while the maternal DNA counters this by encoding for smaller growth. Tigers do not do this, so the large size instructions are not balanced when a female is impregnated by a lion, leading to oversized offspring. I'd assume that skills in magic follow a similar mechanism, but more research is required.
It's rare I feel the need to comment on a video, but I thought this was well thought out, balanced and concise. Thank you. I hope many people see, share and internalize this video.
I do think there is one answer to the liger problem, in that the only way to answer it is to constantly show respect. You, John, consistently put forward a message of consideration, questioning, and seeing what the truth is. Sure you have biases, sure you probably have an agenda at times (even if it’s a good one) but you do try to put forward a perspective that we ALL must look for the liger. I think the only answer to the liger question might be the answer to so many questions: diverse community and respect. Especially respect. If you can respect the person who sees a liger when you can’t, then together you can discover if it’s really there. Kindness, then, is the most important thing in looking for truth.
Great video! You and your brother are amazingly intelligent and open people, and I thank you both for that. I wish there were more people like you two in the world.
I love hearing literary academics talk. It's grammatically sound, varied in its correct vocabulary and complex grammatical structures are so pleasing to the ear.
Everyone always won’t stop talking about how other people’s dreams are boring but I LOVE hearing about people’s dreams, they’re awesome and sometimes hilarious and I know it’s fun for the person telling me to tell their story so I’m having fun too.
According to Jonathan Haidt in "The Righteous Mind", when we like a proposition we ask ourselves "CAN I believe this?" Then if we find a single reason, we give ourselves permission to believe. Whereas when we don't like a proposition we ask ourselves "MUST I believe it?" and if we find a single flaw we give ourselves permission to doubt.
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Those pesky elephants
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This idea, called 'Confirmation Bias' in psychology, predates Haidt by half a century. [Wason, 1960] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Cathcart_Wason
and a touch of motivated blindness
As a therapist, I discuss confirmation bias with my clients in relationship to thoughts, depression, anxiety, etc, but many times it comes out as psychobabble. I think the "Liger Delusion" will be much more relatable. So I'm totally "stealing" it (I mean, I'll use it and credit you). Great video!
How do you feel it worked out to switch to the liger delusion as an explanation?
I don’t know all of the facts but I heard John green is an excellent dancer and will be dancing in his next video.
Speak it into existence.....
Of course he'll dance! There's so much evidence!
He talks about dancing quite often. As does his brother of his dancing. I know they discuss it, so it must mean he loves dancing. It has to be true.
NOPE. -John
Yeah, I read that on the internet somewhere.
Side note: “The Liger Delusion” would be an awesome book title (and an interesting In Your Pants joke)
Claire Egan +
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really would be a great title
Hiya, math major here. This is actually a really important principle in mathematics when it comes to proving mathematical statements. In my intro to proofs course, I often lost points on assignments due to "assuming the conclusion". Like, say you wanted to prove that if y = x^2, the square root of y is x. You don't want to start your proof with, "x is the square root of y because...." That should always be the LAST thing you write because the idea is show THAT it's true, not WHY it's true.
Matt Babineau I sincerely wish that you had been in my 9th grade geometry class!
Ah yes, intro to proofs. Aka "your first actual math course"
I think the question is mainly "how do you know whether there are ligers in your backyard?" You can find reasons for justifying that there are ligers, and you can also find reasons for justifying that there _aren't_ ligers, and... You need to figure out which one is the truth, because clearly one of them is true and one of them is false.
And I have no idea where the line is between "looking for evidence" and "trying to justify my beliefs", where the line is between "not believing everything you hear" and "not believing anything you hear".
In a world where you're bombarded by both things that are true and things that are not, how do you _know_ when it's okay to trust the thing you're hearing?
If one person is saying "there's a liger" and another person is saying "there isn't a liger", how do you know without examining it closely?
And if the answer is "see for yourself", then... How is that any different than "trust absolutely no one on anything"? (something that Hank spent a video ranting against, and rightfully so in my opinion)
Eric Vilas That's a very important question! I think this is where empiricism is helpful. We need to be as scientific as we can be. That means we put trust or value in a belief in proportion to the amount of evidence that supports it. We also need to be rigorous in verifying the validity of our evidence.
Matthew Veverka I agree. However, you come up against the problem of "who do you trust"?
Trustworthy people. Reputable sources. Easier said than done. Everyone's biased, but there is a right answer and... which one is it?
Do you need to check every fact that you read for yourself, always? That seems beyond impossible, and p much the same thing as "not trusting anyone" which is counterproductive at best.
Here's my pro-tip: if, prior to investigation, you have not first questioned whether you might be wrong: you're wrong. If you have done, and have assumed that you're not wrong: you're wrong. Conclusions come after investigation, not before.
Another fair point. Obviously if you can't accept anything as trustworthy, you'll drive yourself nuts. I think spending a little effort to understand a source's bias can help you separate the facts from the spin. And you can see the track record of "reputable" sources. For example, if the NY Times gets something wrong, they print a correction. So we can read a story and understand that they have a left-leaning bias, but also have an editorial review board and do their best to print facts. Be aware of our confirmation bias, and try as much as possible to be led by facts. It's a constant battle, but it's so important to fight!
Okay, I suspect I'm not alone on this: I love hearing about other people's dreams, as long as they're at least somewhat well told.
I agree!
But also, I'd love to not prove Amy Krause Rosenthal wrong.
Robert Baillargeon
I feel that many dreams are hard to tell well. Oftentimes something in the dream that makes it seem profound to it's dreamer is based on something personal or internal(or maybe just a previous dream) that they may not even want to share.
Robert Baillargeon +
Yes, I think the intimacy of sharing things that are personal or internal is a big part of the appeal.
Nothing is less interesting than other people's dreams? Well take this dream on for size:
I was in an existentialism themed game show and the grand finale was a question and answer segment, and the host asked me a very long algebra question, I worked on it for a while and when I gave the answer I came up with the host went "Ooh, I'm sorry but the answer we were looking for is "why?", the answer is always why."
I woke up immediately after and haven't been able to stop thinking about this eerily coherent comedy dream I had since.
Any dream that involves existential themed game shows is a good dream.
Ahahhahaha that was...
Kinda sad.
Definitely interesting though.
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In one of my dreams I was eaten by werewolves, and I didn't even feel bad about it. Might've been when I was depressed, but it wasn't a depressing dream at all... In fact, everyone, including myself, was dancing, and I never dance in real life. The mood, pre- and post-lycanthrophagy (yes, I made up a word, deal with it!) was swingin'.
Other people's dreams can be excellent!
My sister has recurring biblical-apocalypse dreams that are basically fantasy movie trailers, involving demon possession, dragons, and eerie smoke-producing pits.
I think the key is in how entertaining it is.
My favorites that I've had include:
-A crusading fiction where the hero picks up a sword made by the devil and becomes the devil's protectorate, told in the style of a dramatic legend.
-A sci-fi where humans have made contact with aliens who are the source of fairy stories; they live on a shining planet where everything looks like it has been encased in a sheet of ice, and humans have to wear eye protection from the UV rays
-A vampire story, where we have to escape the inner sanctum of a vampire queen on a 9-foot dory, so we have to run across a courtyard carrying a boat and simultaneously arranging the oars and raising the sail
This is exactly why I've become a fan of yours (via binge watching Crash Course in world history recently). Your perspective and degree of self-awareness is award-worthy. Thank you for helping us ask ourselves the right questions
This is the best thing
Just John considering and analyzing ligers in his dreams
It's honestly the most John thing I've ever heard. I didn't even question it.
I love how matter of factly John says “Ligers of course being the offspring of a male lion and a female tiger”
Rawan The Bookworm I mean that is what a liger is.
Well he should since that’s what they are
that just made me curious if that's a detail of the dream (that he just knew it was a male lion and female tiger) or if it's not considered a liger if it's a female lion and a male tiger....
I believe in that case it's considered a tigon.
gwendkifer Yes. The offspring of a male tiger and female lion is a tigon.
I actually LOVE hearing people's dreams. They all differ so wildly. Subject matter. Point of view (third or first person). Colour (b/w or colour). Smells? Textures? It's fascinating.
This is possibly one of the most important videos on the internet right now.
NINJABDUDE +
I often tell people that it's important to think critically about information presented to us, but especially those that we are inclined to believe without question. It's certainly easier said than done, though, and I myself am guilty of the Liger Delusion as much as anyone. But I feel like this is why it is so important to learn how to think critically and do your own fact checking. And it's why, of all the scariness that has come out of politics in the last few years, the most scary to me is the trend of anti-intellectualism and the dismissal of facts and fact checking.
Whoa this video took a turn... I was ready for some Napoleon Dynamite jokes but we got really real really fast.
bred for their skills in magic
Tigons 4 LYFE!
That turnaround was nuts. How do you think of this stuff!? #youtubeinspo
This has to be the deepest analysis of a dream I've ever heard.
Once again, the video you posted directly relates to a major source of stress in my life. Thank you for reminding me that my conclusion may not be, or likely isn’t, THE conclusion. Sometimes, no matter how painful it may be, you have to wait for the facts to slowly unfold and come out. Thank you, John.
I felt the same way too, Shea! Vlogbrothers helps me understand myself and others more complexly. I can always relate their videos in someway to my own life. Thank you, John and Hank.
"No matter what subjects, the closer you look the more you see" - John Green
So true..... 😇
The trick to science is to either presume yourself wrong and actively try and prove yourself wrong in your experimentation. If the statement continues to hold up to scrutiny and merciless bashing it can be considered valid.
"Stop speculating"
However will media companies make money then??????
Edit : I was being sarcastic. Poe's Law applies everywhere, even in the Vlogbrothers comment section, I suppose.
Great question. But we reward their speculation by listening to it/clicking it/watching it, or else they'd stop speculating. The problem is that media companies give us what we want, and if they won't give us what we want, we will start watching/listening to/clicking on a media company that will give us what we want. And there is no real incentive to be accurate, because predictions about the future that don't come true are not really punished. As evidence I would point to the ongoing career of sports journalist Stephen A Smith. -John
vlogbrothers I think I've reached a certain position where I'm actively avoiding news stories, and purposefully either muting news sites or blocking them entirely simply because of their "yeah we might be wrong, but we were wrong FIRST" attitude. Also, since it doesn't really affect my day to day life, and because even if I was aware of the things going around me, there is nothing I could do except contribute in a meaningless token gesture manner that has no implications in real life.
It's better off for me and probably for everyone if I just removed all kinds of news from my life and actively only search boring reports published by boring committees if and only if I absolutely need to.
Maybe be keeping people informed of like, actual facts or something.
The Primeval Void Back in the day lol, no really, used to be the Alphabet Channels, (ABC, NBC, CBS) seemed to report honest true need to know stories supported by facts. Then came smaller news agencies who were so hot to get their news out there 1st, they played "we don't know all the facts but...". So the Alphabet Channels felt a greater need to pounce on a story and, if necessary, drop that line as well.
Sad. Now you have half reported news that leaves you not only wanting but wondering if any of it really happened?
I don't know... Maybe report actual, objective, unbiased facts so the people that consume the content are able to for a less biased and more diverse opinion of complex matters rather than encouraging polarization... :D
In the last 4 months, John's videos have become really deep. I'm currently going through all of the vlogbrothers videos systematically, and there is such a difference. These ones really make me think.
"Looking for Ligers" -Newest book by John Green
John, your wisdom and patience are an inspiration. You are, simply put, one of my go to exemplars on how to always try and be a better human. Thank you.
Looking for A Liger by John Green
it has the same number of letters as looking for alaska
Videos like these remind me that John isn’t just a regular schmegular guy, and he’s also a bestselling author. Honestly if he gave a 3 hour lecture I’d be hooked the whole time.
thanks for making me uncomfortably aware of my own biases
Thanks for being willing to say "I don't know" John, that's very brave and extremely underrated these days
I wish my dreams were this chill.
hahaha............. Idk what your talking about...
No your the only insane one here, not me
azialif aziz Honestly 😂😭
just keep running
What an elegant exposition on circular reasoning and bias confirmation. As for escaping the Liger Delusion, I think it begins with humility, in accepting the serious limitations to not only human knowing, but one’s own knowing. To not assume, to listen, to try and understand. These are difficult to practice at the best of times. But a little more of them would go a long way to quieting the rancor, and to building dialogue, which is so sadly missing today.
I find being a aware of the liger delusion is a good place to start, then we can start collecting data when we catch our selves doing it.
Of the many things that struck me in this video (and why I want everyone to watch and consider it), the title "The Liger Delusion" is immensely creative!
Confirmation bias about my favorite animal. It's bred for its skills in magic.
This video is basically John discussing the difference between what Popper would consider science versus pseudo-science; either trying to prove a hypothesis, or disprove it.
having your opinions challenged can be very scary to some people, but it is the only way you can find out what you truly believe. Don't get mad when someone challenges your positions. Welcome it. Let their challenges shape your view. Let their challenges show you a different perspective that you aren't used to looking from. And don't become so loyal to one side that you refuse to budge on opinions because it would "Let the other side win." This is politics, not football. We don't root for republicans or democrats. We root for America.
I... think that's something I needed to read, Thank you. - Love from London
Glad you liked it
I agree with most of it, but the problem lies with the “We don’t root for dem or rep. We root for America”. Because I feel like voters, especially hardliners on both sides, DO feel like they’re voting for America. The idea that a voter isn’t voting for America is crazy. It just so happens that the party’s base that consistently votes for them believes that they will do a better job for America almost always. And the idea that you should let go of your views so you can work with others is inane to me. Keep ahold of your views. If you think there should be $15 minimum wage, then don’t give up when you compromise for 13$ minimum wage.
Of course people are going to think that their party is going to do what's best for America, but I think that we sometimes pit republicans and democrats against each other when I don't think it should be like that. We compartmentalize these topics as "Left views" and "Right views" when we should be addressing these views individually. Also, I never said "Let go" of your views. I said let them "Shape your view." You can learn a lot about your own stances by debating for and against things you don't agree with. I've played the devil's advocate in many discussions. It's actually pretty fun. Also, I don't mean "Compromise so you can get along with others." I mean "Learn from those you disagree with so you can have a smarter, more well rounded opinion."
Your mind will change as you grow and you should embrace that. If we kept ahold of our views, we would never change.
Maybe instead of voting for a nation, vote for humanity instead. Not the concrete human population, but kindness, compassion, humility... you know, things that make us better human beings. It might turn out badly, but whatever we're doing right now isn't looking too bright, either, and if we let our actions be dictated by cynicism, we'll never know whether we were right or wrong.
What an excellent video, thanks for this John - this is a message that desperately needs to be heard right now
I have a problem with this in some cases because I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor.
If there are no wildlife sanctuaries around in a place where Ligers are being kept, then I almost definitely didn't see two Ligers in the back yard.
If a man is by all accounts still happily married but has been found to cover up affairs for friends and people who benefit him economically, then if there is what looks like hush money to cover up an affair, think he's covering for someone else. (This is where a "we don't know all the facts" goes, however I don't have a "but," because I do not have enough information and would simply be interpolating President Trump being the guilty party because I vehemently dislike the man, and find his policies not just abhorrent, but genuinely Evil with the capital E)
Ligers may not be native to Central Indiana, but it is far more likely they could be strolling in your yard than you might think - Indy is only an hour from the Exotic Feline Rescue Center in Center Point. This was a wonderful and thoughtful video regarding confirmation bias, but that is literally all I could think about. :)
Hmm. I feel like finding a way to stop The Liger Delusion would be incredibly beneficial to everyone and the discourse they make. I wonder if any psychology studies have been done about this thing; John can't have been the first person to think of it.
There's an old study on confirmation bias that suggests that one way to combat confirmation bias (our tendency to gather information that is consistent with our worldview and ignore information that is inconsistent with our world view) is to ask people to try to imagine what set or standard of evidence would be required to dissuade them from their pre-existing views. I.e., asking "What would it take for you to change your mind?"
There might be newer studies out there too!
Oh, that's interesting. I suppose the Liger Delusion is really just an offshoot of confirmation bias. And the “what would change your mind” thing is definitely something I'll do to myself in future.
I don't yet know all the facts, but John must not have been the first person to think of this.
+Odd Bunsen The delusion's everywhere!
Personally, I find the best way is to actively question if things that confirm your worldview are true. At the very least you gain an understanding of why people on the opposite side believe the things they do
It's almost scary how much this applies to stuff I'm experiencing right now in my life, I really want to thank you for talking about this, my case is more of a personal thing than all this public discussion about politics and other subjects but still, It helped me a lot just hearing somebody else talking about stop speculating and actually wait until everything is presented.
I will definitely be using the term "The Liger Delusion" from now on. Great video with excellent points!
Me too, although I hope it doesn't become like the Dunning-Kruger Effect where people just use it without thinking, like the internet equivalent of blocking your ears and singing.
Amazing! This is of the basic reasons why we conclude false ideas to be true. We don't challenge our view, we just reinforce our view with selected facts and discard facts that do not match our view.
Beautifully explained! Thank you John.
We don't have all the facts yet, but those Ligers are hellacute, we know that
John Green is in either case my favorite author on the entire world! I just loved every single book he wrote! And I would love all of them to get filmed! Greetings from Germany :)
As someone who gives no cares about politics (Especially American politics, me being Canadian) and having a family member who is HUGELY political with a very strong bias and a love of fighting with people on the internet, I've recently gotten grey hairs. How can I pay this imaginary liger from your dreams/nightmares to come eat me and make it stop?
I don't look good with grey hair. I don't look good normally, but especially with grey hair.
I love John Green’s random thoughts. They are truly amazing. Can he write a book about the Liger Delusion?
Amazing! Thank you for putting this into words!
I don’t catch every single VlogBrothers video, but this strikes me as the most important one you’ve made in a long time.
Puff levels are high
I really really needed to hear this today. Everything about not starting with the conclusions resonates perfectly with my life currently. Thank you john.
Life is a liger labyrinth
This had everything I want from vlogbrothers -- looking at the world complexly, challenging my worldview, weird animals mentions
On a smaller scale, I always feel like I have to justify my decisions.
everybody does, but you don't know when you're falling pray to cognitive dissonance and when you are objectively sceptic
Matt Nguyen The only problem I ever see with being able to justify your answer is meaning you are biased, is there often people have their mind made up not because of fax but they see how they can interpret reality to be on their side. It’s kind of like you can twist the Bible and saying anything you wanted to say
that's not what "biased" means...
Sometimes I feel like that, too. probably an Asian thing.
I love these types of video's, they are inspiring. Not just for the commentary on media en worldviews. Also because you had a silly dream, you analyzed it and you were able to make a bigger point about one of the most relevant problems your nation faces today. That is a trait I have only seen on this channel and I am inspired by it every time.
Ever keep a dream journal John?
THIS. I’ve been thinking about this quite a bit lately, so I’m glad I’m not the only one. Funny how a dream about (supposed) ligers spurred this thought process. Love it.
well that was a bit of a wake up call for me
You, John, are so amazing, thank you! Thank you for sharing your dreams, thoughts, ideas, and so much more. Thank you for letting us know that we aren't the only ones who think these thoughts but just can't put them into words so elegantly. Thank you for not falling too far into either extream and instead; searching for the reality that we must live in. Have an awesome day!
Wait are Ligers real? I thought they were a product of Napoleon Dynamite's imagination haha
Hannah Beachboard Yes they are very much real, at least in captivity I've never heard of one in the wild.
They are real! But rare. But real! So are Tigons! -John
They are, however, not bred for their magical powers.
What's interesting about ligers, which happen when a male lion impregnates a female tiger, and tigons, when a male tiger impregnates a female lion, is that they both have growth defects. Ligers grow much larger than the average lion or tiger while tigons are much smaller. There is, sadly, no proof of magical powers.
lol they're real but they're not a viable species. All of them are infertile, like mules, so they only exist so long as we choose to create them. And, unlike mules, they have no practical purpose and aren't especially healthy (they struggle with their own weight).
P.S. Yes I know ligers have _occasionally_ bred successfully but the offspring are substantially less healthy and fertile again (and so on in the 1 in a billion chance that a "liliger" or whatever manages to breed). Wild liger populations are not a possibility.
The really scary thing is that there might not be a way to deal with this. Skepticism and critical thinking take you as far as knowing what to be skeptical of and how to do so; but they are woefully ineffective if you also don't have the ability to separate true things from false things without appealing to some authority. The authorities we chose color would world view, and in many cases feed into each other in a way that makes getting to the bottom of things actually totally impossible for some people. It is all fine and good to say that science is trustworthy, but if you're someone ill equipped to evaluate which groups that claim to be science are good and which are bad - well... It is entirely possible that this new age of awakened critical thought is exactly what's leading people with poor feedback loops to dive entirely into conspiracy.
Can you prove you didn't see ligers in your back yard?
My favorite john video, had stuck with me and changed my mindset.
The problem with facing your own liger delusion is that the 'others' don't seem interested in facing theirs. Does that mean I will become more tolerant of them, but they will not become more tolerant of me? I don't want to let them win by being so preoccupied with correcting my own biases that I forget my moral imperatives.
My Liger seems to be that I believe they do not have empathy. They do not care if we are hurt. Evidence against the 'liger': the (bloody) Thoughts and Prayers that I do not want. Do the prayers mean something to them? Do they actually believe the prayers will help? But what does it mean when at other times their prayers condemn who we are?
I'm rambling, not making sense. My Liger is that they do not have empathy.
What would "winning" even mean? That they didn't change your mind? That you convinced them to share your views and opinions?
If one has to throw away their ability to question their own beliefs, and are unable to align them closer to the truth, then all they achieved is that more people share views that are probably quite flawed.
And even if you adamantly believe you are right, just listening to others and questioning your views doesn't mean adopting the beliefs of others. If anything, it should sharpen your beliefs and give you a better idea of why they are true, and why they aren't not true (if that makes sense).
Additionally, people are way more receptive if you actually listen to them. It's still hard to change someone's mind of course, especially if it's on something they deeply value. But digging one's heels in and treating them like some nefarious other will just cause them to entrench their own beliefs, and possibly reinforce any negative idea's they have of their version of "them".
sander heutink Winning like winning an election because their discourse entices voters while "waiting for the facts" can be "boring", keeping others from getting involved and lead to your own inaction. It is much more difficult to carry meaningful and impactful discourse doing it "right", because human.
Not saying John isn't absolutely right but you have to be conscious of the impact and circumstances.
We have confirmation bias for a reason - we evolved to make snap decisions in an emergency so there is a gut instinct that comes with stressful situations. Sometimes we need that, sometimes we need to supress it.
The assumption there is that the most tolerant person looses. Someone who is being listened to (or tolerated) is actually more likely to change than someone who is excluded or dismissed. When was the last time you saw someone react to being shut down by saying, "oh you are right and I was wrong, I have completely changed my mind thanks to your opposing view point" I'm betting the answer is never (especially on line). So maybe the most tolerant is the most likely to win? ............
Also maybe this comment has no chance of changing you point of view that tolerance looses because it opposed your point of view in an online setting........ DOE!
I've always held or tried to hold the behavioral notion that one's worldview must always be altered if suitable facts are provided rather than mould speculation and opinion to my world-view. The videos that you make in general and ones like these in particular help me to remain true to such a principle. Hope we all grow in this effort and the discourse benefits from it.
John how many polo shirts do you own???
I loved the metaphor at the beginning... very insightful video!
Quick question while this video is new and the possibility of reply is better, but John, when will we know about your chosen Sponsorships?
This concept has been something on my mind for quite some time. I’ve developed a particularly sensitive “liger delusion” radar which typically results in an increased critical lens on the information or story, but I still have a long way to go before the delusion doesn’t significantly impact my perception of reality.
Also, when I grow up I want to be able to communicate as well as John... that is a super power.
First! In my perception of linear time.
I recently discovered that what John talks about in this video is called 'Confirmation Bias'. I watched this video about a year ago and when I realized that there was a similarity between the two concepts today! It's actually a really well-researched topic.
Mr. Green you are tacilty employing the equivalency that prompted Edmund Burke's notable, and now almost ubiquitously referenced, line, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing".
In the space where you are waiting for all the facts to come out, being a good person, and not rushing to judgement - as you would frame it - people of any motive, of nefarious purpose, move. They use that time to ensure that the facts, so called, never can come out, or, if and when they do would not be believed, at least by enough people to generally discredit the information; to light the reliable gaslight and let it burn it's flickering doubt into the public mind, and insinuate it's choking obfuscation in layer upon layer of distraction and non-sequitur.
Perhaps you believe that at least you or people like you, or close to you, would have sufficient perspicacity to still identify the truth after that poison has been poured in to the well of civil society, and that, still being able to identify some empirical objective truth means anything at that point. At least we can congratulate ourselves for not having been duped, and having given everyone the benefit of the doubt?
Meanwhile, history tells us a very different story. In the vacuum, the stasis, of well-intentioned idealism, real people, with real designs on real power and real suppression of those ideallists move without remorse or conscience to all of the facts, or any of them, to close off all avenues of opposition. History shows that this appeasement ends one way: eventually, you either flee or you die.
I appreciate trying to imagine the other complexly but sometimes that must necessarily include the acceptance that there are plenty of occasions when the motvation for people or groups of people is to actively and with malice of forethought do other people or groups harm, for their own profit, pleasure or other motivation. You can't imagine people complexly if it only ever means looking for the good in people. People aren't always good.
Waiting for all the facts to come out - expecting perfection of clarity in the murky working of human beings - let alone politically motivated human beings with Machiavellian machinations underpinning their intentions - is settting up for failure. It's a delusion; one that, whilst waiting for it to arrive, in well meaning fairness, will more often than not see the hopeful stamped underfoot. Extinguished.
The balance is a hard one to maintain, but cynicism or skepticism or both is healthy now. Keep the light on, and hope, sure, but do not expect, and prepare for the worst, the least-thinkable, the abandonment of the next unthinkable norms to be discarded. It's the only way to move at sufficient pace. Waiting for all the facts to come out isn't an option - the story is already writ in bad faith a thousand levels deep by those with no regard for all the facts.
*NOTE* I wrote this for myself really, I could go on in ever decreasing circles for thousands of words. It's much more useful to just keep talking to my walls though - I don't expect anyone to agree, or care. Best Wishes.
I basically agree.
It always amazes me how they always bring up such subject that one normally doesn't think about and how it is possible for them to blow your mind with whatever point they are bringing up.
I think that dreaming about Ligers means that you will be eaten by a marshmallow.
I suppose it could also be a metaphor for political discourse; but the marshmallow things seems more plausible.
I experienced the same problem with myself while trying to understand the Eric Greitens situation. It’s tough to understand things for what they really are when people around you want you to understand those things the way they do (i.e. how your subconscious mind wants you to accept that the ligers are there) and then make your decisions from the limited or misleading information. The way I try to combat the unconscious tone I take when presenting information that I agree or disagree with is to better understand the history behind each perspective. For example, when talking about abortion and presenting the existing arguments I usually unconsciously give a higher tone to pro-choice arguments, and then subtlely cherrypick pro-life arguments for things that said either dumb or just less valid. I’ve grown in this area but it’s still interesting that even the well-read and creative mind John Green has trouble distinguishing what constitutes as fact and what constitutes our pre-existing conclusions that may not necessarily be right. Great video as always.
Stay woke, John
I feel like this is even more relevant in 2020 than it was in 2018.
But, we never know *all* the facts. All we can really do is make inferences.
I agree in regards to the facts, we don't even know what all is.
On the other hand, logical evidenced based inferences are vastly more trust worthy than conclusions reached without evidence or logic.
Sadly there are plenty of people who come to conclusions entirely without evidence or logic.
Just ask any religious person why they've come to their conclusion about god, you'll find conclusions reached without the use of evidence or logic.
Bob Hope sure, when you have a mountain of evidence on one side, and basically nothing but garbage on the other, the choice is easy. But in many situations every day we are all faced with choices, sometimes very important choices, where the evidence is not so obvious. But there still has to be an action taken, and you can't do that without an opinion.
I agree, but opinions and inferences are different things. Opinions are more akin to guesses than inferences. Inferences can be trust worthy based on their evidence and/or logic. Opinions don't have to be based on facts or knowledge of any kind. Opinions are what most of us operate on but opinions are just feelings and feelings are not facts. That is why it's illogical to make a decision based on opinions despite the vast majority of us doing exactly that.
Sometimes in life you have to make decisions with out any facts, but don't expect the result to be any better than a guess.
This is why it's so important to reconstruct yourself. To break yourself down and separate what you truly believe in from repeating what we've just heard from others. We have to make sure that the ideas we have are ours and it's not the other way around.
One way to escape the liger delusion is to start life with an insane belief that you hold dearly. When eventually you give up that belief, it’s a quiet constant reminder. “You were wrong. You were wrong about EVERYTHING.”
Specifically, I was raised Mormon and am now atheist. My every conviction is tampered with “well, yeah but I used to think I was going to get my own planet to rule when I died soooo...”
I wish, oh how I wish this were true. I thought it was true for a long time. But as I've watched the atheist movement develop an anti-leftist, anti-feminist, libertarian bent, I've had to come to the conclusion that "I'm more rational than most people" is a liger, and "that must be because I learned to critically examine my own beliefs and biases in the process of leaving religion" was never a good explanation.
Matthew Prorok that’s a good point, and not one I thought of while hurrying to type this haha. I am pretty disconnected from the atheist community tbh, I’m not fully aware of those problems i guess. What website are you thinking of? I saw some of that on reddit, so gross.
I just fell in love with your comment.
Matthew: What you have seen is the atheist movement shifting away from the more recent antics of the progressive left, because many of the ideas espoused by many loud voices within that realm have begun to sound a whole lot like the voices we heard from the religious right.
This is why I love the quote (attributed to feynman) "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool." I find it a useful reminder on a regular basis.
Any advice for how not to die during exam season? Revision is killing me
Don't ever forget that school is not destiny. No exam can dictate your future or your worth; nor could 100 exams.
It'll be okay. Drink water, hang in there, and good luck!
Use the weekends to do most of your revision?
Fitzgerald thank you so much!
Mister Apple currently on study leave so that’s not so much of an issue. Thanks though :)
I like to imagine the words ‘abandon all hope ye who enter here’ on the door to the exam hall until I didn’t have to imagine it because my lovely friend decided to print it on a sheet of paper and place that on the door which lead to the door to the exam hall. But I don’t think that will help you. There is nothing you can do to escape exams just keep going and eventually you will be on the other side.
Best quote of the video
“I need to stop saying but after saying we don’t know all the facts - but I don’t know how....”
"We don't yet have all the information" ... but will keep you updated as we learn more. - that should be where it ends. And most of the time, when I hear "we don't yet have all the information, but..." I stop listening. I want facts, not what fits a political agenda. Damn CNN for starting the 24 news feed, and all those who followed. Funny how we were all fine with a half hour of local news, and a half of national in the evenings, before.
One of your best videos yet! Not that I dislike your content in any way! I have the utmost admiration for you and think you're very wise, but this video just surpasses all the previous things I thought about you! I hope everyone sees this video!
BELL BUTTON SMASHED
I find it incredibly impressive that he made ligers deep and philosophical
Despite the stigma on sharing dreams, this has to be one of my favourite vlogbrothers vids in awhile. I great way to explain the concept. Cheers, John.
Are all writers able to relate a weird dream to politics or is it just John Green?
*sees two ligers in the backyard* “huh. Well, maybe they are just deer, or something; I don’t want to jump to conclusions” *is eaten alive*
Hello! :)
"But I don't know how" may be my favorite turn of phrase from John yet.
...does anyone know how they get a lion and a tiger to breed? Also what if the genders are switched?
Kartikey Sharma Usually the animals are raised in the same enviroment with each other so to them there is no difference. Otherwise it's through IVF. Also a male tiger and female lion's offspring is called a tigon.
Getting them to breed is fairly easy; they will at least sometime mate if they share a cage. If the genders are switched you get a tigon, which is actually quite different from a liger as tigers and lions store different information in the respective sex chromosomes.
basically the same way you get your pet humans to bread with your pet Neanderthal.
Kartikey Sharma Tigons.
Male tiger and female lion makes a tigon, which is substantially smaller than a normal tiger or lion.
It has to do with an evolutionary arms race: male lions benefit from having larger offspring, but lionesses benefit from smaller or normal size offspring which require less care. I'm not sure of the exact mechanism (probably epigenetic rather than Mendelian inheritance) but the DNA from the father codes for larger growth while the maternal DNA counters this by encoding for smaller growth. Tigers do not do this, so the large size instructions are not balanced when a female is impregnated by a lion, leading to oversized offspring.
I'd assume that skills in magic follow a similar mechanism, but more research is required.
"But I don't know how" as an answer to your " But I don't know how" problem, is freaking me out man
John you live in a forest?
😂🙅🏼♀️
OMG, WE BOTH NEEDED THIS SO BAD WE LOVE YOU JOHN GREEN!!!!
It's rare I feel the need to comment on a video, but I thought this was well thought out, balanced and concise. Thank you. I hope many people see, share and internalize this video.
"I apologize for introducing you to my subconscious" is such a great line and should be the title to a memoir
I do think there is one answer to the liger problem, in that the only way to answer it is to constantly show respect. You, John, consistently put forward a message of consideration, questioning, and seeing what the truth is. Sure you have biases, sure you probably have an agenda at times (even if it’s a good one) but you do try to put forward a perspective that we ALL must look for the liger. I think the only answer to the liger question might be the answer to so many questions: diverse community and respect. Especially respect.
If you can respect the person who sees a liger when you can’t, then together you can discover if it’s really there.
Kindness, then, is the most important thing in looking for truth.
Great video! You and your brother are amazingly intelligent and open people, and I thank you both for that. I wish there were more people like you two in the world.
I love hearing literary academics talk. It's grammatically sound, varied in its correct vocabulary and complex grammatical structures are so pleasing to the ear.
Everyone always won’t stop talking about how other people’s dreams are boring but I LOVE hearing about people’s dreams, they’re awesome and sometimes hilarious and I know it’s fun for the person telling me to tell their story so I’m having fun too.