Synergistic board wipes are the truth. Using the perfect board wipe in the list that leaves your key components alive while clearing the board of everything else means more card variety, quicker games (Hopefully), and doesn't set you back as much.
More and more, I've been leaning into prioritizing weaker, but one-sided boardwipes to use as mass removal *and* double up as finishers. Sure, they don't clear *everything,* but they usually clear enough of the board to give me a sufficient edge to win.
On the flip side, these are often times the board wipes that my opponent (He knows who he is) will spell steal and use against me. So keeping them symmetrical with maybe a couple options for modes, works out the best for me.
Knowing when not to use removal/ interaction or board wipes is so important. People will ask me, if you had a way to stop your opponent from winning why wouldn't you. And if I have no meaningful follow-up, I am just dragging the game out indefinitely for very litte in return, i would much rather get to the next game.
If your opponent will definitely win after the boardwipe then maybe, but if there's a chance you could win after then I'm definitely board wiping because otherwise I'm playing worse for no reason which feels bad.
As a player who's power level is slowly approaching cedh, I think that what types are permanents are being hit by a board wipe is extremely the relevant. It's easy in lower power pods to slam your farewell for all modes and 'make em pay'. But I think board wipes are at their best when they are more targeted or specific. For example wiping several mana rocks from an ahead player.
Couldn't agree more 🤜🤛 the irony with Farewell is that it is one the best one sided board wipes you can run, except that almost everyone plays the card badly
I think board wipes are necessary. However I do think there is a problem with running to many. I personally always try to maximum run 3, but usually run 2. The idea behind this is if I'm running 5 board wipes and so is everyone else in the pod. That's 20 board wipes that are going into a pod and odds are there is going to be one going off like every other turn with how easy it is now to draw a lot of cards or tutor.
That's what I run, too, 2 or 3, with the same philosophy. Everyone needs them, but if we all play enough of them to draw one consistently, the game will suffer.
@@TheCoooolmon I've actually started metagaming due to this concept and run way more ways to either duck sweepers or rapidly recover from them instead in my creature based decks. That might be a little greedy but hey, gotta read the signals.
@@davestier6247 absolutely take advantage of the patterns you're seeing. I always try to run some options for that in my decks so I at least have a chance of being okay after a board wipe.
@SwedeRacerDC yeah and I mean also metagaming just not running many sweeper effects and kinda factoring in that the other players at the table will. So its a tad greedy but seems to be working. I'm now only running 1 sweeper in my archelos sultai gates deck for example, toxic deluge. I do run cyc rift but I tend to only use it when I can maze end combo off if there are hate pieces in play that would stop my win
I'm a big fan of tragic arrogance and cataclysmic gearhulk in particular. I love wipes that still leave permenants in play overall, and these two are great at not punishing the people stumbling as hard as the guys overextending. Never feels great to farewell away two one rings and take one guy stuck on three lands and two mana rocks out of the game
The board wipe is a solution to a very specific problem: A greedy overreach. Personally I do not throw down a board wipe if some one has like, a voltron commander. But if they have a value engine and everyone else has like a creature and a top deck hope? Thats the time to wipe. Its more about learning when to nuke, because just like all other commander decisions making it at the wrong time makes you the new villain.
And as an aside: One of our pod mates proxied a genius "oops all board wipes" deck. But in his defense he always announces when he is going to play it and funny enough the play pattern is enough to get around if you are ready for it. He enjoys the novelty from time to time. I think he's secretly a masochist for it.
@@DeanTheAdequate lmao that's brave. I'm with you on the masochist point. The key points I was trying to get across were to think more critically about when to wipe and if it's actually worth it, as well as a list of better wipes to play, so we're pretty aligned.
I love how one of my decks accidentally has the wincon of making my creatures indestructible and then boardwiping so that I am the only one left with a boardstate
I really love battle of beywater. Simply put, if you play small dudes, you might just have a 3 mana one sided whipe that gets anywhere from 2-7 food as a bonus.
In hindsight, I should really have talked about my Ian Malcolm dinos deck, where controlled boardwipes are a big part of my creature driven strategy, but alas. Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching
I do like those wipes that erase everything BUT my stuff :D Good old Ruinous Ultimatum 🥰 Consuming Tide(and similar) + Ashaya, Soul of the Wild is also exquisite.
I love board wipes that set you up! I also try to only run synergistic board wipes, so fell the mighty in my crabs deck with low power or cataclysmic gearhulk in my Sefris deck that can recur it! Farewell and Cyclonic rift are great and all, but they lack flavor and just make long games
Based. The only comment I'd make is that Cyclonic Rift is actually good, because it can be used to close out games. The problem is that 90% of people don't have the self discipline to use it that way and use it to stop themselves from dying or to stop someone else from winning.
Boo! I disagree...With anyone who would disagree with this take. I can't tell you how much it grinds me gears when people complain about how long the game is taking and then go ahead and use a board wipe on their turn. We can't all be playing Thassa's Oracle and other two card combo wins. Many of us want interesting games with a lot of variety and maybe we are trying to win through combat. But then a board wipe really grinds the game to a halt as nobody is positioned to win. Whoever has the most resource and card advantage at this point is likely to pull ahead fast. Do we reset again? Are we going to bother to play anything until we can play everything we need to win since another board wipe is around the corner? I still am annoyed any the game I played where each of my opponents deployed a board wipe in the same turn cycle. 2 before my turn and one after. The player who first played a board wipe was primed to win with nobody having anything and me losing my commander twice in the same turn cycle. I can understand why the two were played in a row, because i still had 3 creatures after the first and they were quite strong. But the third player would have been better off just making a deal with me to direct my attack elsewhere and give him the chance to sneak in to the win. I still only want one or two board wipes at most in my deck unless they provide a serious advantage for me
@BasedDeckDept Yeah, I like to keep you guys on your toes. Someone has to be "that guy" lol. It's funny that the same day I watched this somebody wanted to see my mono white keyword soup deck, which I don't have uploaded anywhere, but I was taking pictures of the cards based on categories and I have 6 board wipes. One can only hit artifacts and enchantments, but still it's my highest in any deck and it's only because I have so much indestructible that my creatures are guaranteed to survive the board wipe and the game is likely to end soon after if nobody can stop it. It made me feel a little hypocritical having so many, but it still fits with the philosophy of the video.
I use board wipes cuz I don't play creatures. Absolutely necessary for me. Any interaction for artifacts already slows me down, especially mana wise. Some people just put board wipes in their deck when they don't need to, especially if their win condition is through combat. There's plenty of ways to deal with board wipes (instants that give indestructible, counter spells, necro decks, returning creatures to hand, phasing, teferis protection, discard spells, and so on). Now I know most people play commander, but there are numerous cards and decks that counter board wipes. You just have to play with cards you might not be used to. Or change up your deck entirely. Every deck has a weakness. Switch it up. That's why the meta changes.
@sana-chan6912 There's no real meta to Commander, because it's a casual format. If you're talking cEDH, sure, there's a meta. The argument that there's always responses doesn't really work. Sure there's options, but even if you have them all, you probably don't have enough to respond to all the board wipes that slow the game down. I get using them when it's advantageous, but Teferi's Protection (TP) for example is extremely expensive and non-white decks don't have that option. And budget is one of the biggest concerns of a large portion of players so TP is definitely not. Nonblue decks don't have reliable counterspells. If you're going to play EDH and aren't trying to go cEDH or playing on a high powered anything goes kinda pod, you might not want to run a deck that board wipes all the time.
I don't play commander. Teferis protection is 3 mana. What did you mean by to is extremely expensive? I used the example of meta to emphasize change. I can see where you're coming from. Wish I played enough commander to give you advice. If it's that much of a problem for you, I suggest you just experiment. There's always a way. Don't give up.
I discovered this long ago. I too love a good board wipe but not if it significantly prolongs the game on either side being the controller or the recipient of said board wipe. I determined from feedback that I should soon after close the game quickly so the effect of the board wipe is less feel bad and more what you’re going to do what after your board wipe? Cool!
I recently found the card Play of the Game and it’s one of the coolest board wipes that I’ve seen. Assist is such a cool ability. Wish they’d bring back battle bond type effects again.
It's so cool isn't it. There's an assist counterspell in my Melek deck. Really cool mechanic. The only reason I didn't really include PoG here is that it's symmetrical and effectively Farewells, and I don't want to put that kind of power in the hands of people that may abuse it
@@BasedDeckDept I like it more than farewell personally. Because it doesn’t let you choose anything and when I cast it I’m not paying for it. If other people want a board while then they pay for it, I’ll just provide it.
This card does look awesome, but it's sorcery speed. How often does someone have enough mana open on your turn to really contribute to this? I would like assist more on sorcery speed cards if it let any number of other players contribute, or if it was an instant.
@ imo that makes it even better. If people want a board wipe you tell them you have a spell but they need to give up using a ton of mana on their own turn. The mindset of “this isn’t instantly effective and optimized” is annoying and ignores table politics. Ideally no board wipe should be instant speed unless it: A. Costs an assload of mana Or B. Has a downside for you and/or upside for an opponent
Im a budget player and I made a mono white deck. No money for smothering tithes or land taxes. My deck was Odric keyword soup. I ran like 14 board wipes so I could keep people from getting out of control while I could build a board lol
My Gaffer Control budget deck commits similar crimes. In the right pod it's absolutely fine. And white has lots of cheap wipes that don't hit everything
One of my games from earlier this year started me down this path. I had a symmetrical board wipe in hand but I was already behind the rest of the pod. My options were to wipe the board and add an extra 30+ minutes or let the current game wrap up early enough that everyone would be happy to get in one more game. In the follow up game I stabilised quickly and managed to take the win. I've since been cutting a lot of the symmetrical board wipes. I can fill that spot with targeted removal or something synergistic - either a one-sided wipe or something that reduces the impact of incoming removal to my own board.
Great video. I definitely bristled when I heard you talk about board wipes in the more fun in commander vid, but I do think you make some good points here. Still not sure if I completely agree but I'll definitely think about what you said here.
Haha, *points* they bristled, we gottem! Appreciate you watching (and commenting). I also appreciate you hearing my thoughts despite contrasting views on the topic to begin with. Like most things, none of it's black and white. I just enjoy sharing my philosophy, and it's up to you which parts you like, and which you'll discard.
I used to play like 4+ board wipes in my deck, but then I moved it down to 2, Toxic Deluge and Living Death, so that I can keep an advantage after casting them. I replaced the other board wipes with card draw (which I was severely lacking before), and now I feel like I can dig for one when needed. Most importantly, when I cast one, the game will still end in a turn or two if my opponents don’t spam removal on me. I have someone in my playgroup that hates on Cyclonic Rift, but at least Cyclonic Rift ends the game. What’s the difference between that and casting a Craterhof? Both would end the game that turn.
A thing I've been working on is using boardwipes that affect me as little as possible. For example, for Dihada and Ratadrabik I'm running Invasion of Fiora, where I can choose to destroy all nonlegendary creatures (and my deck is, naturally, all legendary creatures). In Delney I run cares-about-power wipes like dusk//dawn, which my 2-power creatures duck under. And so on.
"That board is a danger next turn, especially X, I could deal with it, but you probably won't like it, if you can deal with it I won't use my option" That's how I often phrase it, it makes sure they don't know what kind of wipe I have, while doing the negotiating It saves me the interaction for later and often draws less aggro from the others since now it is more of an inevitable colleteral than malicious
I play Shorikai as a control/vehicle deck that also wins on draw (no thoracle). So legitmately, it makes sense for me to run 4-5 board wipes as I gain no disadvantage by a wrath of god or supreme verdict and follow up with a devestating vehicles online and swing for big damage
I think one sided boardwipes are a lot less detrimental in terms of slowing the game down, but people should also be building their decks so they don’t just slow to a halt after a boardwipe, having recursion, protection and just plain card draw really helps
@BasedDeckDept Initially it was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. It started as a zombie tribal deck, but my opponents kept playing irritating creatures, so I kept taking out zombies and adding more removal, until one day it was just removal, and it became the beta version of the current deck. And then I realized that while Mikaeus is a good all-purpose lad... Why not run another boardwipe in the command zone? So now the deck is headed by Massacre Girl. It's quite something going up against Torsten, Founder of Benalia. The primary gameplan is to wipe the board a few times and then to cast my beloved: Rise of the Dark Realms. Failing that, Exsanguinate, Gary, or in a real pinch, Inkmoth Nexus. Your talk of when to and when not to wrath was a bit tricky to wrap my mind around since for me when to wrath or not to wrath is a matter of risk assessment: You don't want to get caught without a wrath at an inopurtun time. Since you can't reasonably invest into creatures when you're planning on wrathing every few turns, you don't get to do a lot of blocking, so you have to keep a wary eye on your life total. The printing of _The Meathook Massacre_ was a huge boon to the deck. You also need to be prepared to kill indestructible creatures, so plenty of -X/-X wraths. Wouldn't do to lose to something so simple. A spot-removal suite is needed as well to remove high-priority targets at instant-speed and soften boards up a bit to encourage opponents to commit to the board. And then there's the tastiest of the bunch, what I call the "preemptive board wipes." Lethal Vapors is the poster child, enchantments which essentially kill a creature on ETB. These are thematically perfect, but genuinely give you lots of value in slowing the game down to give you some time to stock up on wraths and other resources. They are also removal magnets, so they can protect your Phyrexian Arena and whatnot from Disenchant effects. Special shout-out to Darkness, which can protect against an unexpected haste board for 1 mana, or let you tank a big hit to delay a wrath by a round, and Vedalken Orrery, which lets you wrath at instant speed, an absolutely incredible feeling, the best kind of Fog: Damnation. Oh, and also to Life's Finale, for feeding an opponent's three best creatures to Rise of the Dark Realms. This is my pet deck, so there's also a lot of pet cards like Withering Boon and Imp's Mischief. But yeah, it's a completely different discussion when wraths are the primary card type/game plan of your deck instead of a contingency resource. Wishclaw Talisman and Scheming Symmetry are mainly there to help out a mana-screwed player or for diplomacy, but they can be a nice consolation prize also if I see that a particular player is being especially affected by the constant wraths. Yeah, I just really like killing creatures. www.moxfield.com/decks/N7fWv6DExU6xRhZ1AE3PBg
@@dreamwalkingthis is a terrible deck idea. It’s uninspired and leads to negative game experiences. The “Nobody gets to play until I get to play my stuff” attitude kinda sucks dude. Guessing you either solely play online or in random pods. You’re not making friends with that shit. Also your curve is fucked
I definitely think there are alternatives to your usual boardwipes that are slept on. Staples can be great, but if I have an excuse to run Mizzium Mortars instead of Blasphemous Act, I will.
My deck with the most board wipes is my Zangief deck at 3, and that's because it's voltron and he's indestructible on my turn. Games usually end quicker after that if it resolves. My Angel deck has a Farewell and a Settle the Wreckage and that's it. Most of my decks are few on wipes.
I have 11 counterspells, including the forces/free ones, in my raffine combat deck for the SOLE purpose of countering board wipes. I wont counter anything my pod does... until they try to sweep the board.
I'm gonna pretend that the video is titled is "Play your board wipes better". Your idea is good tho, I've seen a lot of games in my group go on for hours because players don't even try to win or at least eliminate a player after a wipe. Also I have a bit of a problem with too much "Play for fun" idealogy because of the dozen of people I played with, the ones with this ideas were usually the ones who refuse to even read cards and just wanted to play pretend. But I understand it's a problem specific to my experience, so I don't wanna condemned it.
I just realized I messed up the chaptering, but from 7m onwards I specifically talk about better card choices, and the description has this list of better boardwipes to play. I just thought context would help many rather than just a list. archidekt.com/decks/10189852/baseddeckdepartments_based_boardwipes_list
@@BasedDeckDept No, you didn't do anything wrong, I was just too hasty, I should have written the comment after, not during the video. 😅 The list is very useful, I have seen a couple of cards that I have myself but don't use (Like the Meathook Massakre I opened in a pack and I'm very afraid to use since I could only put it in a wide and tall Abomination of Llanowar deck).
I dislike board wipes since it causes games to go long. So I've doubled down on protection and run no removal on my decks. It's been interesting to say the least. One game in particular, my board state survived two board wipes with some interactions I had. I didn't survive the third but the amount of ramp onto lands I was given before it occurred, made me win afterwards as I was 7 lands ahead so I could just play a lot more spells to win. Another time, I survived a cyclonic rift with phasing out and survived further targeting as I was still ahead afterwards. This hasn't always been the case but the way I see it, if I double down on all protection, I can go fast and try to get a lot of advantage with either cards, permanents or lands, before inevitably of course too much removal gets to me. And while I may not be able to remove someone else's stuff, there's still three other people running removal in their decks.
Very much agree with this. When I was new to EDH I used to just follow the "recommended 4-5 wipes per deck" and it always felt bad. I have since switched to max 2 wipes per deck, control decks maybe running 3. And on top those that I run are always ones that add additional value and/or set me up for a win. Also: Psychotog list where!? I need it!
Based 🤜🤛 and as for Psychatog... Alas this was in standard and then extended... A very, very long time ago 😂😂 not exactly like this list, but close to it. www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/912486#paper
I love River's Rebuke, Aetherize, and Settle the Wreckage. Isolating one opponent when they're the problem gives other players at the table that aren't being effected the incentive to help your spell resolve. Can't tell you how many time I've had opponents go into counterbattles over my River's Rebuke, it's a delight.
The take is only true if you ignore combos. Because combos take the most advantage out of wipes, a good sweep will buy you just enough time or remove problems and allow you to combo without any opposition.
My position on wipes is simple. You have 3 opponents. Removing a singular threat with a piece of spot removal puts you down a card, and the person you hit down a card. Your other opponents lose nothing. This is a game where you are in competition and the only way to win is be the last man standing. Running out of cards sucks, and making everyone pay for the threat is fundamentally putting you ahead. If you have a problem with that, either build a better deck. Or dont overextend. Or both
It’s funny that’s how I use boardwipes. I use mycosynth lattice with vandalblast to go for a win. All to dust while running colorless cards(Eldrazi), blasphemous act when my stuff is indestructible and etc
This is exactly how i play. Even with counterspell. I try to use them at the peak time not just because I can. Sometimes a counterspell is just poking the bear lol and means ima get smacked hard when they go to combat.
My hot take is that i'd rather lose than cast a symmetrical board wipe and come back and win 1 hour later. If i'm going to reset the game anyway, we might as well ACTUALLY reset the game, letting the person who is ahead have the joy of winning. This does NOT apply to when I can actually translate a board wipe into a win, but even if I know that a wipe will stop the archenemy from winning, why would I deny them that satisfaction, slow the game down, only for a chance of winning myself?
Because winning a grindy game is it's own reward? It's another road block, tempo hit or kind of interaction puzzle you have to overcome? It showcases whether your deck is resilient enough to overcome this challenge through regaining resources, card draw and recursion. "Letting the person who is ahead have the joy of winning. Why would I deny them that satisfaction." These just seem like cheap wins. These don't feel earned and would feel like my opponent isn't being worthy or giving me a challenge. They're not actual wins. How can you have the joy of winning if your opponents let you win. Seems paradoxical. The exception is obviously is someone is short on time or a 3 hour game is going on too long and people want to go home, sure fine.
@@voidprism_studios666 When I'm playing commander, I'm not playing it like, say, a game of league of legends. It's more like Mario party to me. As in, it's really not about winning, but making sure everyone at the table has a fun time. We clearly just have different philosophies on how we enjoy the game and that's alright. But just to be clear I don't believe in playing 0 interaction at all, or even 0 board wipes. I'm just against adding a whole hour to a game just for a chance of clawing your way back to victory; because at that point it just feels like the game completely revolves around who is fortunate enough to win without getting wiped. Obviously , if you're playing higher power decks, you'll be playing a lot of protection against wipes, which can lead to fun moments. If that's satisfying for you and your playgroup, that's great! I can definitely get how recovering from a board wipe is fun! Like, one time my friend played a wipe and I responded by bouncing all of my creatures to hand and it felt cool as hell in that moment; but then the game lasted 3 and a half hours 😭 at which point everyone was getting really tired, and my friend didn't really feel that good about winning anyway. I would have liked to just have the board wipe not happen, the game ends, then I swap my deck for something different and feel more refreshed for game 2
@@chimarielucie i would absolutely fume if i played against you and knew i only won this easy because you did the board game equivalent of rolling over and presenting your neck when i presented the slightest of Clocks and a smidge of a win condition.
@@mofomiko And I would absolutely fume if I board wiped, with no real way to come back myself afterwards, only for someone else to get ahead and win because no one happens to have any wipes left. To each their own, but I think there's something inherently lame about the winner winning just because people ran out of removal. To each their own, though, and I don't decree how you play the game :) if you're having fun how you're going, keep playing how you play, this is just what works for my play group
My favorite board wipe is the only one that ive found that can be a game ending spell and that one is Blasphemous Act with my dragon commander deck long as i have Wrathful red or the battle turned dragon that does the same thing that 1 red mana is enough to drain my opponents life along with all the creatures very rarely do i pull it off though so its a very sneaky way to close the game it also happens to be my only board wipe in the deck
I've actually done this. Holding back a board wipe because i knew it would be a struggle for everyone and the game would have dragged out for another 30-40 minutes. Sure maybe i could have won the game by grinding it out, but i felt like it wasn't worth everyone's time. I'd say it depends on the Situation. If you're going hyper speed and threatening a kill on turn 5 you're gonna eat it. Maybe not so much on a turn 9 or 10 in Game 3 with everyone zoning out.
My house rules is if you plan on using a board wipe, use one that will win you the game like a ruinous ultimatum or In Garruks Wake. I'm not trying to keep playing for the chance to win 2 hours later.
Actually to rephrase, I think board wipes are a symptom of players who want to win too much, there really not that much of an actual difference between letting someone combo for a win and regressing the boardstate with a card like farewell. At that point you might as well scoop and play a new match right? Edit oh you said that 6:30
I feel like one overlooked thing in edh is slowplaying. In the store i play people dont really slowplay this but since if started doing it and trying to becone archenemy less i feel like boardwhipes have been way easier to play around and my games have been more fun in general. I would love to hear your take on slowplaying
@@BasedDeckDept I think I ment something similar to sandbagging, like waiting to play your bombs and staying second place. So its easier to come back after a boardwhipe or after a few removal spells are played. Sorry english isn't my first language.
I think of cards like Armageddon where they're fine If you can play them to guarantee a win but if you can't and you're just throwing it in there for no real reason what's the point? You don't need to run board wipes, I think the only thing sorta like one I use are big X spells like Exocrine or lord of undeath and those only serve to shatter defenses to secure leathal.
While I can’t argue every case in this video because I’m just a comment, I will at least bring up that some strategies aren’t able to go as tall or as wide as some others. Having a wrath to deal with it when the time comes just seems practical. Also, Implying that someone should hold their wrath and throw the game seems disrespectful because of the implication that you let them win by not casting your wrath. You could tell people to “not say anything and keep it as a mini victory for yourself” and tell yourself “I could have brought it back and the game isn’t really decided”, but rarely would anyone keep quiet about it. I don’t know if you covered this exactly, but most threats aren’t just one card you need a “sniper rifle” for. As for re-setting the game. Most board wipes I run into rarely if ever hit lands, and if you still have lands, you aren’t “re-setting” the game. And “land destruction is bad” is a whole other topic debatably (it is pretty bad) All in all, I don’t care what anyone thinks because I’ll never see any of you and if you hate getting your stuff removed, go play a video game because no one wants to hear complaining. 🤷♂️
Measured takes, you love to see it. I hope it doesn't come across as if I hate board wipes, and don't want my stuff being removed, because that's not the case. Ultimately what matters is what kind of game the pod wants, but I've talked about that in much more detail in my other recent videos. I will comment on the topic of disrespect or letting someone win. I don't think it's disrespectful, or takes away from a win at all. I'll often ask the table "guys do we want to reset, or are we happy if x person just wins." half the time the table wants a reset if they think they can capitalize, the other half of the time they're happy to admit defeat. I think this is more about maturity in understanding that who 'wins' doesn't really matter. This is after all a social format where the experience matters more than just who won or lost. Appreciate your thoughts, and again, ultimately we don't have to agree 100% as I'm making these videos to offer my points of view, and its up to you, the viewer to decide what you may take, and what you'll discard
@ I guess it could just be me and my background, but I personally wouldn’t like it if someone asked everyone if it was ok if they cast there wrath especially if I was in the winning position. While I acknowledge the main focus isn’t winning, I want people to play their best because that’s what I like about the game. I like it when people make good plays or tough ones and it pans out for them. I still want people to want to win. Without the overarching goal of winning the game and competing, we wouldn’t really have a game. Giving up and not playing to outs essentially waves that goal. I’ve made decks where the goal was to have every of the 100 cards start with the letter “t”, or cast “my first tome” and copy it a bunch where we essentially play a mini game, I understand there being goals beyond winning, but it’s not very common someone builds a deck and just wants to lose. It’s not fun playing against people who all collectively agree to lose. I played against a group that was casual, I was playing r/u Gandalf in a game I figured was casual and out of left field someone else consultation Oracle combos. They ask us if we want the game to end, the consensus was we want the game to keep going, and he doesn’t play the Oracle part of the combo. I was more upset about him sparing us instead of winning with a lame combo, and it’s the same with wraths in “I have something I can do, but I’m going to hold and do nothing because (I don’t even know)”. Also, thank you for your response, I post sometimes on debate or opinion videos and I’ll never get anything back.
@@joeeee8838 @joeeee8838 It's a pleasure friend. Measured interesting conversation is what I hope to find in the comments I'd strongly to encourage you to watch some of my other recent videos if you haven't already. There's a few contrasting ones, framed around having more fun, making more friends, winning more, and building decks that are fun to lose to. Other than a shameless plug, I think they'll be interesting to watch to understand where my viewpoints come from. That said I think having a focus on winning and setting up the pod for that is absolutely ok. Because ultimately the game is what the pod wants it to be
I’d make a case for doing more politics. If you’re good at politics every single interaction becomes An oportunity, and makes for cool play patterns, stories and overall cool vibes. For example, I once used the threat of a board wipe to preassure the winning player into not attacking me for a turn in exchange for delayling the wipe for a turn, then after his turn I asked the defending players to go full in on that guy as the board wipe was due so their crature would die regardless and in the end we ended up with the winning player close to dying, most boards semi-cleared and I was just balling, being taken out from the whole equasion, never even forced to actually play the wipe Idk about other players but for me this political aspect is the coolest part about EDH, but hey that’s just my take
Based. 100% agree. Cyc Rift is one of the strongest win cons in commander, and should be used the same way as a Craterhoof.etc. anything else aka those that cast it defensively or to not lose, is cringe
Counterpoint. If you think the game is taking too long because someone wiped you are entirely free to give up in order to speed up the process. No one is forcing you to sit through that and if you're on a game store you could then begin another game. You say you like control that means you like long interactive games. Some people like that and that is ok. In my experience while wipes do make a game longer what really can stretch out a game into overtime is a couple of sweaty tryhards taking way too much time to tap way too little land because they HAVE to make the best play available and discerning what that is may take some time
Getting back into commander after a long break, I'm really confused about the "don't do X that improve your chances of winning, as it's not fun for others". I get that building a deck with the goal to waste other's time is not good. But doing so requires extensive game knowledge, which I lack. So I run into the situation where the advice is don't do X, as it ruins fun. But I have no clue what to do instead, AND how to avoid all things that ruin fun. Most games have you optimize for trying to win, and are built in such as a way that everyone doing so makes the game fun. While commander seems to have this nebulous idea of fun, that is impossible to optimize for (without extensive in-depth knowledge). Making me question whether I should really come back to commander at all. So, ultimately my struggle is how to navigate this quagmire (knowing very little cards). But also questioning why this has to be a quagmire.
Thanks for watching and commenting ❤️❤️ yeah I think you make a good point about knowledge. Bare in mind these are opinions, not a command, but I think it's more that I don't enjoy sitting through a grindy 3h game, so I don't want to inflict that on my self or others, because I can see how a variety of pods have a similar sentiment. They don't leave that game happy they leave it drained. What's the point of that? Winning is great, I love winning, but if the result of that win is that I and the table had a crap time, did I really win? I make videos like this to get people thinking, and especially for someone new fresh in commander to maybe ponder this earlier than 2-3 years into regular games where they realize this by themselves. It again, it's all my opinion and I'm genuinely trying to be helpful. If you don't like the opinions, you can ignore them. 🤜🤛
Darksteel Plate? Kaldra Compleat? Mithril Coat? Have you never lost to one or more of these? When this situation arises, what's my option? I don't like multiple board wipes per game, but these situations need solutions, and sometimes there is collateral damage. Where applicable, I'll even straight out tell the other players "I'm going to smash everything if nobody else has an answer for this" and most times the response is "hell yeah brother! Break everything!"
All rules are meant to be smashed occasionally, and if the pod is ready to hulk smash along with you, then there's not much of an issue. In terms of the two equipment, I find exile works very well. Or at least, about 75% of the time I strap those to my creatures, I'm usually Swords'd before I untap.
@@BasedDeckDept I often play against randos in Spelltable as I feel it preps me for anything. I like never knowing what's coming. Yet in many of these lobbies, I find that I or maybe one other player seem to be the only ones playing removal. Don't know why. I enjoyed your video a great deal and I shall return for more
3 board wipes minimum 1 that doesn’t touch ur stuff( theme based) , 1 that touch’s everything or anything, and lastly a cheap one that has 4 or less mana for quick wipes ( like blasphemous act). my superfriends deck has 10 board wipes don’t want anyone touching my planeswalkers😂
i feel bad now,,, i have very little experience with magic so i dont know what is fun to go against but i have a mono black maha, its feathers night deck focused on hella board wipes..... ill get a different deck @.@
Haha we all start somewhere friend. Doesn't mean you need to scrap your deck. If your board wipes are one sided and they leave your board unaffected so you can end the game, great. But if your deck takes ages to win and is constantly wiping your opponents stuff away yeah you might want to make some tweaks 😂 if I was building maha id focus on targeted spells that give -1/-1 as there are a ton. Will be less oppressive and probably more fun to play
The irony of Farewell and the No meme in the thumbnail of this video when that is exactly the reason I'll play it. Your Shenanigans? Your pillowforts? Your unstoppable engines? No, no, and no. Your heroic interventions and mass graveyard recursion? Also no and no. No. just stop it now. Finis. Out of here.
That said, I only own one Farewell, and it's actually in a deck where when I pull the trigger I probably have The Initiative if not also something just hanging out in exile. Though my favorite boardwipe is often Hour of Revelation.
I think I may have said this in the video, but ironically farewell and cyclonic rift are two of the biggest offenders, but are actually also two of the best wipes when used properly. Therein lies the problem though 😂😂 thanks for watching ❤️
@@BasedDeckDept Heh, the options are much better now, not Cyclonic Rift better, but at least usable. For quite the time everything even remotely close was like Upheaval and banned. Yet, UB needed that way to break up the pillowfort board states and enchantment piles.
Board wipes aren’t even very reliable anymore anyways. You could attempt to level the playing field with a board wipe…just for 1 of the 3 other players to save their board with a single protection spell. However…if you’re against someone playing a board wipe just because the game is going on too long for you…then play a more kingmaking style at that point of the game. If you want the game to end and don’t care about winning or who wins….then help end it. Even if that means attacking and targeting a fellow weaker player.
I have some confusion connected to this issue. Maybe someone here could help me solve that. I should mention also that I have slight autistic tendencies, as I imagine many do in some subcultures :P Maybe I do not always understand the social aspects of 'fun'. As a small edit: I also understand that EDH is a multiplayer format, and that rule 0 exists. People agree to play this casually, and as a result, opinions will vary from playgroup to playgroup about what is acceptable. I know for example that mass land destruction tends to be frowned upon. Also by me. The problem I try to present here is more about the unclear definition of 'fun'. And I try to present my feelings about how I disagree with this. I do not claim to know the truth, and I understand that other people will have wildly different ideas about what 'fun' is. Yes. I also want to add, that on principle I have things that *I* do not like in the game, and that I shun away from adding into my decks. However if others play them, that's okay for them. Infinite combos. I do not have them. I have good levels of synergy and things that work well. I have good levels of recursion. But it can all fizzle and stop, very easily. As a result, even when I play my favorite deck, which is sort of a draw-go kind of exploration deck with Pirates, treasures, planeswalkers, yes board wipes, Party, Dungeon, Rooms and stuff, it still *regularly loses*. But it also wins a bit. That's okay I think. End of edit. I see this thing a bit one sided. I either win, or I lose the game. I do not think I have ever really required anything else of Magic, in the gaming sense at least. Still, I love brewing from time to time, and I've also been very invested in the lore, at least in the past. But I do not require the actual gaming experience to be a strict lore correct escapade of the Gatewatch going canonically from world to world and then defeating Bolas. I am okay with the game being separate from the lore. Then there are people who claim that the game should be about 'fun'. I do not think I understand what you mean by that. Some would say that, okay, yes you can of course play 45 boardwipes in your deck, but as a result, noone at your LGS will prefer to play with you. By social interaction, you and your deck design will be punished. As a result, not getting to play, would equate to not having 'fun'. In competetive magic, this isn't even a discussion, since the only purpose is to win. Having fun is irrelevant. For me, this creates a sort of .. hegemonical opinion I suppose, that EDH and Commander "should be about fun", and 'fun' tends to mean 'fast games'? I don't know. Others seem to claim that it means if they get to pull off their combo. Or if they get to durdle. Or if they somehow get to do something else crazy, but I mean, in the end most people just mean that they get to win. Thats the fun, it seems. I do not understand why it is wrong for me to want to play, say, 9-10 board wipes, which I do, and I regularly get chided for it, to the point that I no longer feel that my playstyle, that I find 'fun', is accepted at the LGS. I have been punished, and it seems I deserved to be. My defensive playstyle, that yes, leads to 3h games, is not welcome. My vision of longer games being the most enjoyable, is voted down. Instead, combo heavy decks reign. Or decks that do not want any interaction at all. In my opinion, that kind of EDH, that has banished board wipes, tends to boil down to a very stale form of games where people just take 20-30 minute long games on repeat, that basically look the same. Setup, build-up and comboing off. Rince and repeat, forever. How is that more 'fun' ? I think it is an oppressive and sad situation we have ended up in, and in my opinion we have stifled creativity, in the name of the greater good. Actually I do not mind losing games, that's completely fine. But I like to feel that I have a chance to fight for myself, and I see board wipes and removal as a functional tool to achieve that. If we do not allow for that, the only thing that remains is just bloated boards that win by some inexorable fate. Flooding the board with tokens, infinite combos or some such. I disagree with this line of thinking. And if someone responds that hey, we havent said that you cant play boardwipes at all, yes, maybe thats my autism missing that point. I either feel that I may do something, or not. I do not see any room for compromise on a principle level there. It's either okay to play board wipes, or it isn't. And I feel that most players tend to punish a control player for even existing in the format. With unfair arguments about 'fun'. I honestly think most things could and should be allowed in the format. And if a playgroup does not want something, they can talk about that. *Really* talk about it. Not just shame away certain things, because you do not feel comfortable. I would have understood if people talked with eachother, but it sort of becomes absurd if say, an entire LGS would post their local rules, that these things are not allowed at all. You may not play certain commanders, you may not have certain keywords, god forbid that you would have a card that cost more than 10 euros, and you may not have a single counterspell in your deck. So why is it okay to oppress individual players? The game has these things in it, and except for an official ban list from WotC, I will assume that is acceptable to play. So I play it.
friend pls 💔 there is a whole list of one sided, flexible and thematic wipes here, which I referenced and it was in the description. archidekt.com/decks/10189852/baseddeckdepartments_based_boardwipes_list
Softies want others to play soft with them. For me, it's offensive if an opponent doesn't give it their all and has mercy, as it implies they think I'm too fucking soft to deal with hard plays. Just take this as if it was Chess or Go. No place for soft feelings in Chess or Go or any form of competiton. If you're over 18 and get upset about board wipes, ask yourself why are you so soft and feelings oriented if you are an adult.
Lmao that's just swapping one crime for another 😂 stax causes most of the same problem as boardwipes. Not to say it shouldn't be played at all, but definitely a time and place kind of thing
"don't cast the boardwipe, if you're only casting it to win" is a really weird take. Why play the game then? Does "fun" mean that one player can build up to infinity because they got the cards they needed and the rest should just stand by and do nothing? If you are annoyed that people throw too many boardwipes at your table maybe then don't produce an explosive diarrhea of cards on the board that raises everyone's attention.
Thanks for watching ❤️ that's not quite what I said. If anything the whole point of this video is don't just board wipe to reset the game, unless you really really have to because someone is dominating and not trying to win. That said, these are my opinions, I am not commanding you to play in a certain way 🤜🤛
@TargetSniper365 thanks for the brilliant advice but I only watch commander on youtube anymore so I don't need to. It's just an opinion don't let it hurt you.
Thanks for watching friend hot take but Cyclonic Rift is actually fine because it's one sided. People just can't be trusted to use it optimally, and use it really, really badly 90% of the time as opposed to using it to win.
Well, the video quite literally tells you how to play boardwipes better, and suggests a long list of better board wipes to play instead of the most common ones. It may be 'bad', but it's accurate.
using MTG as your stage to practice "politics" with your friends is one of the stupidest approaches to the game. If your pod has such a massive issue with a huge majority of the cards or playstyles youre probably better off playing a coop board game or better yet just do nothing since you seem incapable of enjoying this game unless youre ALWAYS winning.
Commander (not constructed formats) is social and can largely be whatever the pod playing wants it to be. One cannot escape the fact that it's a social format, where the time investment is usually 5-10x that of a normal 60 card game game. My takes here are specifically against those that seem to need to need to win at no cost.
Synergistic board wipes are the truth. Using the perfect board wipe in the list that leaves your key components alive while clearing the board of everything else means more card variety, quicker games (Hopefully), and doesn't set you back as much.
More and more, I've been leaning into prioritizing weaker, but one-sided boardwipes to use as mass removal *and* double up as finishers. Sure, they don't clear *everything,* but they usually clear enough of the board to give me a sufficient edge to win.
This is the way. Based
As I just said to paperwatt.. based
On the flip side, these are often times the board wipes that my opponent (He knows who he is) will spell steal and use against me. So keeping them symmetrical with maybe a couple options for modes, works out the best for me.
The answer of course is to play only lands and sorceries
Knowing when not to use removal/ interaction or board wipes is so important. People will ask me, if you had a way to stop your opponent from winning why wouldn't you. And if I have no meaningful follow-up, I am just dragging the game out indefinitely for very litte in return, i would much rather get to the next game.
Based
If your opponent will definitely win after the boardwipe then maybe, but if there's a chance you could win after then I'm definitely board wiping because otherwise I'm playing worse for no reason which feels bad.
As a player who's power level is slowly approaching cedh, I think that what types are permanents are being hit by a board wipe is extremely the relevant. It's easy in lower power pods to slam your farewell for all modes and 'make em pay'. But I think board wipes are at their best when they are more targeted or specific. For example wiping several mana rocks from an ahead player.
Couldn't agree more 🤜🤛 the irony with Farewell is that it is one the best one sided board wipes you can run, except that almost everyone plays the card badly
I think board wipes are necessary. However I do think there is a problem with running to many. I personally always try to maximum run 3, but usually run 2. The idea behind this is if I'm running 5 board wipes and so is everyone else in the pod. That's 20 board wipes that are going into a pod and odds are there is going to be one going off like every other turn with how easy it is now to draw a lot of cards or tutor.
That's what I run, too, 2 or 3, with the same philosophy. Everyone needs them, but if we all play enough of them to draw one consistently, the game will suffer.
Very much this. Based
@@TheCoooolmon I've actually started metagaming due to this concept and run way more ways to either duck sweepers or rapidly recover from them instead in my creature based decks. That might be a little greedy but hey, gotta read the signals.
@@davestier6247 absolutely take advantage of the patterns you're seeing. I always try to run some options for that in my decks so I at least have a chance of being okay after a board wipe.
@SwedeRacerDC yeah and I mean also metagaming just not running many sweeper effects and kinda factoring in that the other players at the table will. So its a tad greedy but seems to be working. I'm now only running 1 sweeper in my archelos sultai gates deck for example, toxic deluge. I do run cyc rift but I tend to only use it when I can maze end combo off if there are hate pieces in play that would stop my win
I'm a big fan of tragic arrogance and cataclysmic gearhulk in particular. I love wipes that still leave permenants in play overall, and these two are great at not punishing the people stumbling as hard as the guys overextending. Never feels great to farewell away two one rings and take one guy stuck on three lands and two mana rocks out of the game
Based. This is the way 🤜🤛
This is the way, based
and if you are in mardu you can run mythos of snapdax as well
@@bamby3144 First time I've ever seen this card. What an absolute banger
@@BasedDeckDept hell yeahhh, another fav of my is make an example and promise of loyalty
The board wipe is a solution to a very specific problem: A greedy overreach. Personally I do not throw down a board wipe if some one has like, a voltron commander. But if they have a value engine and everyone else has like a creature and a top deck hope? Thats the time to wipe.
Its more about learning when to nuke, because just like all other commander decisions making it at the wrong time makes you the new villain.
And as an aside: One of our pod mates proxied a genius "oops all board wipes" deck. But in his defense he always announces when he is going to play it and funny enough the play pattern is enough to get around if you are ready for it.
He enjoys the novelty from time to time. I think he's secretly a masochist for it.
@@DeanTheAdequate lmao that's brave. I'm with you on the masochist point. The key points I was trying to get across were to think more critically about when to wipe and if it's actually worth it, as well as a list of better wipes to play, so we're pretty aligned.
I love how one of my decks accidentally has the wincon of making my creatures indestructible and then boardwiping so that I am the only one left with a boardstate
I really love battle of beywater. Simply put, if you play small dudes, you might just have a 3 mana one sided whipe that gets anywhere from 2-7 food as a bonus.
It's so very good Thanks for watching
Perfect timing. Today the thought of "Why am I running boardwipes in my creature based value deck?" Very helpful video thank you!
In hindsight, I should really have talked about my Ian Malcolm dinos deck, where controlled boardwipes are a big part of my creature driven strategy, but alas. Glad you enjoyed it! Thanks for watching
I do like those wipes that erase everything BUT my stuff :D Good old Ruinous Ultimatum 🥰
Consuming Tide(and similar) + Ashaya, Soul of the Wild is also exquisite.
They really are the best
Shoutouts to _Plague Wind_ and _In Garruk's Wake._
@@dreamwalking Bangers
Great video as always
Thanks for the recomendation of the board wipes
Keep up the great work
May your channel grow and prosper
God Bless
Thanks for watching friend, and enjoy discovering some new amazing board wipes! See you in the comments on the next one 🤜🤛
I love board wipes that set you up! I also try to only run synergistic board wipes, so fell the mighty in my crabs deck with low power or cataclysmic gearhulk in my Sefris deck that can recur it! Farewell and Cyclonic rift are great and all, but they lack flavor and just make long games
Based. The only comment I'd make is that Cyclonic Rift is actually good, because it can be used to close out games. The problem is that 90% of people don't have the self discipline to use it that way and use it to stop themselves from dying or to stop someone else from winning.
Untimely explosion is by far my favorite board wipe
@@soleo2783 It's a banger for sure
Boo! I disagree...With anyone who would disagree with this take. I can't tell you how much it grinds me gears when people complain about how long the game is taking and then go ahead and use a board wipe on their turn. We can't all be playing Thassa's Oracle and other two card combo wins. Many of us want interesting games with a lot of variety and maybe we are trying to win through combat. But then a board wipe really grinds the game to a halt as nobody is positioned to win. Whoever has the most resource and card advantage at this point is likely to pull ahead fast. Do we reset again? Are we going to bother to play anything until we can play everything we need to win since another board wipe is around the corner? I still am annoyed any the game I played where each of my opponents deployed a board wipe in the same turn cycle. 2 before my turn and one after. The player who first played a board wipe was primed to win with nobody having anything and me losing my commander twice in the same turn cycle. I can understand why the two were played in a row, because i still had 3 creatures after the first and they were quite strong. But the third player would have been better off just making a deal with me to direct my attack elsewhere and give him the chance to sneak in to the win. I still only want one or two board wipes at most in my deck unless they provide a serious advantage for me
Thanks for watching friend. Glad it resonated. Almost had me at the start there..
@BasedDeckDept Yeah, I like to keep you guys on your toes. Someone has to be "that guy" lol. It's funny that the same day I watched this somebody wanted to see my mono white keyword soup deck, which I don't have uploaded anywhere, but I was taking pictures of the cards based on categories and I have 6 board wipes. One can only hit artifacts and enchantments, but still it's my highest in any deck and it's only because I have so much indestructible that my creatures are guaranteed to survive the board wipe and the game is likely to end soon after if nobody can stop it. It made me feel a little hypocritical having so many, but it still fits with the philosophy of the video.
I use board wipes cuz I don't play creatures. Absolutely necessary for me. Any interaction for artifacts already slows me down, especially mana wise. Some people just put board wipes in their deck when they don't need to, especially if their win condition is through combat. There's plenty of ways to deal with board wipes (instants that give indestructible, counter spells, necro decks, returning creatures to hand, phasing, teferis protection, discard spells, and so on). Now I know most people play commander, but there are numerous cards and decks that counter board wipes. You just have to play with cards you might not be used to. Or change up your deck entirely. Every deck has a weakness. Switch it up. That's why the meta changes.
@sana-chan6912 There's no real meta to Commander, because it's a casual format. If you're talking cEDH, sure, there's a meta. The argument that there's always responses doesn't really work. Sure there's options, but even if you have them all, you probably don't have enough to respond to all the board wipes that slow the game down. I get using them when it's advantageous, but Teferi's Protection (TP) for example is extremely expensive and non-white decks don't have that option. And budget is one of the biggest concerns of a large portion of players so TP is definitely not. Nonblue decks don't have reliable counterspells. If you're going to play EDH and aren't trying to go cEDH or playing on a high powered anything goes kinda pod, you might not want to run a deck that board wipes all the time.
I don't play commander. Teferis protection is 3 mana. What did you mean by to is extremely expensive? I used the example of meta to emphasize change. I can see where you're coming from. Wish I played enough commander to give you advice. If it's that much of a problem for you, I suggest you just experiment. There's always a way. Don't give up.
I discovered this long ago. I too love a good board wipe but not if it significantly prolongs the game on either side being the controller or the recipient of said board wipe. I determined from feedback that I should soon after close the game quickly so the effect of the board wipe is less feel bad and more what you’re going to do what after your board wipe? Cool!
Love the take!
Also Split Up and Make An Example are great boardwhipes that can win you the game on the spot
thanks for watching! Also great suggestions! Already had Split Up in the list, but have added Make An Example
I recently found the card Play of the Game and it’s one of the coolest board wipes that I’ve seen. Assist is such a cool ability. Wish they’d bring back battle bond type effects again.
It's so cool isn't it. There's an assist counterspell in my Melek deck. Really cool mechanic. The only reason I didn't really include PoG here is that it's symmetrical and effectively Farewells, and I don't want to put that kind of power in the hands of people that may abuse it
@@BasedDeckDept I like it more than farewell personally. Because it doesn’t let you choose anything and when I cast it I’m not paying for it. If other people want a board while then they pay for it, I’ll just provide it.
This card does look awesome, but it's sorcery speed. How often does someone have enough mana open on your turn to really contribute to this? I would like assist more on sorcery speed cards if it let any number of other players contribute, or if it was an instant.
@@evolutionXXVII I think you'd be surprised, although I'd question how many would want to given they'll lose all their nonland permanents
@ imo that makes it even better. If people want a board wipe you tell them you have a spell but they need to give up using a ton of mana on their own turn. The mindset of “this isn’t instantly effective and optimized” is annoying and ignores table politics.
Ideally no board wipe should be instant speed unless it:
A. Costs an assload of mana
Or
B. Has a downside for you and/or upside for an opponent
Im a budget player and I made a mono white deck. No money for smothering tithes or land taxes. My deck was Odric keyword soup. I ran like 14 board wipes so I could keep people from getting out of control while I could build a board lol
My Gaffer Control budget deck commits similar crimes. In the right pod it's absolutely fine. And white has lots of cheap wipes that don't hit everything
One of my games from earlier this year started me down this path. I had a symmetrical board wipe in hand but I was already behind the rest of the pod. My options were to wipe the board and add an extra 30+ minutes or let the current game wrap up early enough that everyone would be happy to get in one more game. In the follow up game I stabilised quickly and managed to take the win.
I've since been cutting a lot of the symmetrical board wipes. I can fill that spot with targeted removal or something synergistic - either a one-sided wipe or something that reduces the impact of incoming removal to my own board.
Based
Great video. I definitely bristled when I heard you talk about board wipes in the more fun in commander vid, but I do think you make some good points here. Still not sure if I completely agree but I'll definitely think about what you said here.
Haha, *points* they bristled, we gottem! Appreciate you watching (and commenting). I also appreciate you hearing my thoughts despite contrasting views on the topic to begin with. Like most things, none of it's black and white. I just enjoy sharing my philosophy, and it's up to you which parts you like, and which you'll discard.
Awesome content again!
I used to play like 4+ board wipes in my deck, but then I moved it down to 2, Toxic Deluge and Living Death, so that I can keep an advantage after casting them. I replaced the other board wipes with card draw (which I was severely lacking before), and now I feel like I can dig for one when needed. Most importantly, when I cast one, the game will still end in a turn or two if my opponents don’t spam removal on me.
I have someone in my playgroup that hates on Cyclonic Rift, but at least Cyclonic Rift ends the game. What’s the difference between that and casting a Craterhof? Both would end the game that turn.
Based takes friend ❤️🤜🤛
A thing I've been working on is using boardwipes that affect me as little as possible. For example, for Dihada and Ratadrabik I'm running Invasion of Fiora, where I can choose to destroy all nonlegendary creatures (and my deck is, naturally, all legendary creatures). In Delney I run cares-about-power wipes like dusk//dawn, which my 2-power creatures duck under. And so on.
This is the way, based
"That board is a danger next turn, especially X, I could deal with it, but you probably won't like it, if you can deal with it I won't use my option"
That's how I often phrase it, it makes sure they don't know what kind of wipe I have, while doing the negotiating
It saves me the interaction for later and often draws less aggro from the others since now it is more of an inevitable colleteral than malicious
I play Shorikai as a control/vehicle deck that also wins on draw (no thoracle). So legitmately, it makes sense for me to run 4-5 board wipes as I gain no disadvantage by a wrath of god or supreme verdict and follow up with a devestating vehicles online and swing for big damage
Yeah that means your wipes are one sided. No issues there.
I think one sided boardwipes are a lot less detrimental in terms of slowing the game down, but people should also be building their decks so they don’t just slow to a halt after a boardwipe, having recursion, protection and just plain card draw really helps
The discussion in this video was weird to try to process considering my main deck is Boardwipe Tribal.
Haha oh no... Who's your commander?
@BasedDeckDept Initially it was Mikaeus, the Unhallowed. It started as a zombie tribal deck, but my opponents kept playing irritating creatures, so I kept taking out zombies and adding more removal, until one day it was just removal, and it became the beta version of the current deck. And then I realized that while Mikaeus is a good all-purpose lad... Why not run another boardwipe in the command zone? So now the deck is headed by Massacre Girl. It's quite something going up against Torsten, Founder of Benalia.
The primary gameplan is to wipe the board a few times and then to cast my beloved: Rise of the Dark Realms. Failing that, Exsanguinate, Gary, or in a real pinch, Inkmoth Nexus.
Your talk of when to and when not to wrath was a bit tricky to wrap my mind around since for me when to wrath or not to wrath is a matter of risk assessment: You don't want to get caught without a wrath at an inopurtun time. Since you can't reasonably invest into creatures when you're planning on wrathing every few turns, you don't get to do a lot of blocking, so you have to keep a wary eye on your life total. The printing of _The Meathook Massacre_ was a huge boon to the deck.
You also need to be prepared to kill indestructible creatures, so plenty of -X/-X wraths. Wouldn't do to lose to something so simple.
A spot-removal suite is needed as well to remove high-priority targets at instant-speed and soften boards up a bit to encourage opponents to commit to the board.
And then there's the tastiest of the bunch, what I call the "preemptive board wipes." Lethal Vapors is the poster child, enchantments which essentially kill a creature on ETB. These are thematically perfect, but genuinely give you lots of value in slowing the game down to give you some time to stock up on wraths and other resources. They are also removal magnets, so they can protect your Phyrexian Arena and whatnot from Disenchant effects.
Special shout-out to Darkness, which can protect against an unexpected haste board for 1 mana, or let you tank a big hit to delay a wrath by a round, and Vedalken Orrery, which lets you wrath at instant speed, an absolutely incredible feeling, the best kind of Fog: Damnation.
Oh, and also to Life's Finale, for feeding an opponent's three best creatures to Rise of the Dark Realms.
This is my pet deck, so there's also a lot of pet cards like Withering Boon and Imp's Mischief.
But yeah, it's a completely different discussion when wraths are the primary card type/game plan of your deck instead of a contingency resource.
Wishclaw Talisman and Scheming Symmetry are mainly there to help out a mana-screwed player or for diplomacy, but they can be a nice consolation prize also if I see that a particular player is being especially affected by the constant wraths.
Yeah, I just really like killing creatures.
www.moxfield.com/decks/N7fWv6DExU6xRhZ1AE3PBg
@@dreamwalkingthis is a terrible deck idea. It’s uninspired and leads to negative game experiences. The “Nobody gets to play until I get to play my stuff” attitude kinda sucks dude. Guessing you either solely play online or in random pods. You’re not making friends with that shit. Also your curve is fucked
I definitely think there are alternatives to your usual boardwipes that are slept on. Staples can be great, but if I have an excuse to run Mizzium Mortars instead of Blasphemous Act, I will.
My deck with the most board wipes is my Zangief deck at 3, and that's because it's voltron and he's indestructible on my turn. Games usually end quicker after that if it resolves. My Angel deck has a Farewell and a Settle the Wreckage and that's it. Most of my decks are few on wipes.
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I have 11 counterspells, including the forces/free ones, in my raffine combat deck for the SOLE purpose of countering board wipes. I wont counter anything my pod does... until they try to sweep the board.
The hero we deserve 😂
I'm gonna pretend that the video is titled is "Play your board wipes better".
Your idea is good tho, I've seen a lot of games in my group go on for hours because players don't even try to win or at least eliminate a player after a wipe.
Also I have a bit of a problem with too much "Play for fun" idealogy because of the dozen of people I played with, the ones with this ideas were usually the ones who refuse to even read cards and just wanted to play pretend.
But I understand it's a problem specific to my experience, so I don't wanna condemned it.
I just realized I messed up the chaptering, but from 7m onwards I specifically talk about better card choices, and the description has this list of better boardwipes to play. I just thought context would help many rather than just a list. archidekt.com/decks/10189852/baseddeckdepartments_based_boardwipes_list
@@BasedDeckDept No, you didn't do anything wrong, I was just too hasty, I should have written the comment after, not during the video. 😅
The list is very useful, I have seen a couple of cards that I have myself but don't use (Like the Meathook Massakre I opened in a pack and I'm very afraid to use since I could only put it in a wide and tall Abomination of Llanowar deck).
I dislike board wipes since it causes games to go long. So I've doubled down on protection and run no removal on my decks. It's been interesting to say the least. One game in particular, my board state survived two board wipes with some interactions I had. I didn't survive the third but the amount of ramp onto lands I was given before it occurred, made me win afterwards as I was 7 lands ahead so I could just play a lot more spells to win.
Another time, I survived a cyclonic rift with phasing out and survived further targeting as I was still ahead afterwards.
This hasn't always been the case but the way I see it, if I double down on all protection, I can go fast and try to get a lot of advantage with either cards, permanents or lands, before inevitably of course too much removal gets to me. And while I may not be able to remove someone else's stuff, there's still three other people running removal in their decks.
Someone asked me recently to make a video about protection. I think you may be on to something 😂🤜🤛
Very much agree with this.
When I was new to EDH I used to just follow the "recommended 4-5 wipes per deck" and it always felt bad.
I have since switched to max 2 wipes per deck, control decks maybe running 3.
And on top those that I run are always ones that add additional value and/or set me up for a win.
Also: Psychotog list where!? I need it!
Based 🤜🤛 and as for Psychatog... Alas this was in standard and then extended... A very, very long time ago 😂😂 not exactly like this list, but close to it. www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/912486#paper
I love River's Rebuke, Aetherize, and Settle the Wreckage. Isolating one opponent when they're the problem gives other players at the table that aren't being effected the incentive to help your spell resolve. Can't tell you how many time I've had opponents go into counterbattles over my River's Rebuke, it's a delight.
Bangers all round. Realized I didn't have Rivers Rebuke in the list, have added it.
Amazing video! 💪🏻
The take is only true if you ignore combos. Because combos take the most advantage out of wipes, a good sweep will buy you just enough time or remove problems and allow you to combo without any opposition.
I'll keep mine, thanks. They're quite handy from time to time.
Thanks for watching 🤜🤛❤️
@BasedDeckDept : Sure!
My Ultra Magnus deck has 12 board wipes. Attack with Magnus, making it and my other creature indestructible then cast a board wipe.
My position on wipes is simple. You have 3 opponents. Removing a singular threat with a piece of spot removal puts you down a card, and the person you hit down a card.
Your other opponents lose nothing. This is a game where you are in competition and the only way to win is be the last man standing. Running out of cards sucks, and making everyone pay for the threat is fundamentally putting you ahead. If you have a problem with that, either build a better deck. Or dont overextend. Or both
It’s funny that’s how I use boardwipes. I use mycosynth lattice with vandalblast to go for a win. All to dust while running colorless cards(Eldrazi), blasphemous act when my stuff is indestructible and etc
This is exactly how i play. Even with counterspell. I try to use them at the peak time not just because I can. Sometimes a counterspell is just poking the bear lol and means ima get smacked hard when they go to combat.
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My hot take is that i'd rather lose than cast a symmetrical board wipe and come back and win 1 hour later. If i'm going to reset the game anyway, we might as well ACTUALLY reset the game, letting the person who is ahead have the joy of winning. This does NOT apply to when I can actually translate a board wipe into a win, but even if I know that a wipe will stop the archenemy from winning, why would I deny them that satisfaction, slow the game down, only for a chance of winning myself?
Based 🤜🤛
Because winning a grindy game is it's own reward? It's another road block, tempo hit or kind of interaction puzzle you have to overcome? It showcases whether your deck is resilient enough to overcome this challenge through regaining resources, card draw and recursion.
"Letting the person who is ahead have the joy of winning. Why would I deny them that satisfaction." These just seem like cheap wins. These don't feel earned and would feel like my opponent isn't being worthy or giving me a challenge. They're not actual wins. How can you have the joy of winning if your opponents let you win. Seems paradoxical. The exception is obviously is someone is short on time or a 3 hour game is going on too long and people want to go home, sure fine.
@@voidprism_studios666 When I'm playing commander, I'm not playing it like, say, a game of league of legends. It's more like Mario party to me. As in, it's really not about winning, but making sure everyone at the table has a fun time. We clearly just have different philosophies on how we enjoy the game and that's alright. But just to be clear I don't believe in playing 0 interaction at all, or even 0 board wipes. I'm just against adding a whole hour to a game just for a chance of clawing your way back to victory; because at that point it just feels like the game completely revolves around who is fortunate enough to win without getting wiped. Obviously , if you're playing higher power decks, you'll be playing a lot of protection against wipes, which can lead to fun moments. If that's satisfying for you and your playgroup, that's great! I can definitely get how recovering from a board wipe is fun! Like, one time my friend played a wipe and I responded by bouncing all of my creatures to hand and it felt cool as hell in that moment; but then the game lasted 3 and a half hours 😭 at which point everyone was getting really tired, and my friend didn't really feel that good about winning anyway. I would have liked to just have the board wipe not happen, the game ends, then I swap my deck for something different and feel more refreshed for game 2
@@chimarielucie i would absolutely fume if i played against you and knew i only won this easy because you did the board game equivalent of rolling over and presenting your neck when i presented the slightest of Clocks and a smidge of a win condition.
@@mofomiko And I would absolutely fume if I board wiped, with no real way to come back myself afterwards, only for someone else to get ahead and win because no one happens to have any wipes left. To each their own, but I think there's something inherently lame about the winner winning just because people ran out of removal.
To each their own, though, and I don't decree how you play the game :) if you're having fun how you're going, keep playing how you play, this is just what works for my play group
My favorite board wipe is the only one that ive found that can be a game ending spell and that one is Blasphemous Act with my dragon commander deck long as i have Wrathful red or the battle turned dragon that does the same thing that 1 red mana is enough to drain my opponents life along with all the creatures very rarely do i pull it off though so its a very sneaky way to close the game it also happens to be my only board wipe in the deck
Based Blasphemous Act + Repercussion is one of my favourite win conditions
I've actually done this. Holding back a board wipe because i knew it would be a struggle for everyone and the game would have dragged out for another 30-40 minutes. Sure maybe i could have won the game by grinding it out, but i felt like it wasn't worth everyone's time. I'd say it depends on the Situation. If you're going hyper speed and threatening a kill on turn 5 you're gonna eat it. Maybe not so much on a turn 9 or 10 in Game 3 with everyone zoning out.
Yeah pretty much this 🤜🤛
My house rules is if you plan on using a board wipe, use one that will win you the game like a ruinous ultimatum or In Garruks Wake. I'm not trying to keep playing for the chance to win 2 hours later.
Based 🤜🤛
Actually to rephrase, I think board wipes are a symptom of players who want to win too much, there really not that much of an actual difference between letting someone combo for a win and regressing the boardstate with a card like farewell. At that point you might as well scoop and play a new match right?
Edit oh you said that 6:30
Exactly 🤜🤛
I feel like one overlooked thing in edh is slowplaying. In the store i play people dont really slowplay this but since if started doing it and trying to becone archenemy less i feel like boardwhipes have been way easier to play around and my games have been more fun in general. I would love to hear your take on slowplaying
Just to be sure I answer correctly, you mean people taking long to make decisions and taking really long turns, correct?
@@BasedDeckDept I think I ment something similar to sandbagging, like waiting to play your bombs and staying second place. So its easier to come back after a boardwhipe or after a few removal spells are played. Sorry english isn't my first language.
I think of cards like Armageddon where they're fine If you can play them to guarantee a win but if you can't and you're just throwing it in there for no real reason what's the point? You don't need to run board wipes, I think the only thing sorta like one I use are big X spells like Exocrine or lord of undeath and those only serve to shatter defenses to secure leathal.
While I can’t argue every case in this video because I’m just a comment, I will at least bring up that some strategies aren’t able to go as tall or as wide as some others. Having a wrath to deal with it when the time comes just seems practical. Also, Implying that someone should hold their wrath and throw the game seems disrespectful because of the implication that you let them win by not casting your wrath. You could tell people to “not say anything and keep it as a mini victory for yourself” and tell yourself “I could have brought it back and the game isn’t really decided”, but rarely would anyone keep quiet about it. I don’t know if you covered this exactly, but most threats aren’t just one card you need a “sniper rifle” for. As for re-setting the game. Most board wipes I run into rarely if ever hit lands, and if you still have lands, you aren’t “re-setting” the game. And “land destruction is bad” is a whole other topic debatably (it is pretty bad)
All in all, I don’t care what anyone thinks because I’ll never see any of you and if you hate getting your stuff removed, go play a video game because no one wants to hear complaining. 🤷♂️
Measured takes, you love to see it. I hope it doesn't come across as if I hate board wipes, and don't want my stuff being removed, because that's not the case. Ultimately what matters is what kind of game the pod wants, but I've talked about that in much more detail in my other recent videos. I will comment on the topic of disrespect or letting someone win. I don't think it's disrespectful, or takes away from a win at all. I'll often ask the table "guys do we want to reset, or are we happy if x person just wins." half the time the table wants a reset if they think they can capitalize, the other half of the time they're happy to admit defeat. I think this is more about maturity in understanding that who 'wins' doesn't really matter. This is after all a social format where the experience matters more than just who won or lost. Appreciate your thoughts, and again, ultimately we don't have to agree 100% as I'm making these videos to offer my points of view, and its up to you, the viewer to decide what you may take, and what you'll discard
@ I guess it could just be me and my background, but I personally wouldn’t like it if someone asked everyone if it was ok if they cast there wrath especially if I was in the winning position. While I acknowledge the main focus isn’t winning, I want people to play their best because that’s what I like about the game. I like it when people make good plays or tough ones and it pans out for them. I still want people to want to win. Without the overarching goal of winning the game and competing, we wouldn’t really have a game. Giving up and not playing to outs essentially waves that goal. I’ve made decks where the goal was to have every of the 100 cards start with the letter “t”, or cast “my first tome” and copy it a bunch where we essentially play a mini game, I understand there being goals beyond winning, but it’s not very common someone builds a deck and just wants to lose. It’s not fun playing against people who all collectively agree to lose. I played against a group that was casual, I was playing r/u Gandalf in a game I figured was casual and out of left field someone else consultation Oracle combos. They ask us if we want the game to end, the consensus was we want the game to keep going, and he doesn’t play the Oracle part of the combo. I was more upset about him sparing us instead of winning with a lame combo, and it’s the same with wraths in “I have something I can do, but I’m going to hold and do nothing because (I don’t even know)”.
Also, thank you for your response, I post sometimes on debate or opinion videos and I’ll never get anything back.
@@joeeee8838 @joeeee8838 It's a pleasure friend. Measured interesting conversation is what I hope to find in the comments I'd strongly to encourage you to watch some of my other recent videos if you haven't already. There's a few contrasting ones, framed around having more fun, making more friends, winning more, and building decks that are fun to lose to. Other than a shameless plug, I think they'll be interesting to watch to understand where my viewpoints come from. That said I think having a focus on winning and setting up the pod for that is absolutely ok. Because ultimately the game is what the pod wants it to be
@@BasedDeckDept I’ll check them out, and happy thanksgiving
I’d make a case for doing more politics. If you’re good at politics every single interaction becomes An oportunity, and makes for cool play patterns, stories and overall cool vibes.
For example, I once used the threat of a board wipe to preassure the winning player into not attacking me for a turn in exchange for delayling the wipe for a turn, then after his turn I asked the defending players to go full in on that guy as the board wipe was due so their crature would die regardless and in the end we ended up with the winning player close to dying, most boards semi-cleared and I was just balling, being taken out from the whole equasion, never even forced to actually play the wipe
Idk about other players but for me this political aspect is the coolest part about EDH, but hey that’s just my take
Based
Unless you win immediately after that kicked cyc rift, you're part of the problem with commander.
Based. 100% agree. Cyc Rift is one of the strongest win cons in commander, and should be used the same way as a Craterhoof.etc. anything else aka those that cast it defensively or to not lose, is cringe
Would love to see a video on top secret anti-board wipe tech.
That's actually a great suggestion. I'll add it to the list of future video topics
what if I run 5 board wipes.. but they don’t hit my creatures?? 😈
I do believe that is based. Provided you use your creatures to end the game after the wipes of course 😂 long game rule still applies
Counterpoint. If you think the game is taking too long because someone wiped you are entirely free to give up in order to speed up the process. No one is forcing you to sit through that and if you're on a game store you could then begin another game. You say you like control that means you like long interactive games. Some people like that and that is ok. In my experience while wipes do make a game longer what really can stretch out a game into overtime is a couple of sweaty tryhards taking way too much time to tap way too little land because they HAVE to make the best play available and discerning what that is may take some time
Getting back into commander after a long break, I'm really confused about the "don't do X that improve your chances of winning, as it's not fun for others". I get that building a deck with the goal to waste other's time is not good. But doing so requires extensive game knowledge, which I lack. So I run into the situation where the advice is don't do X, as it ruins fun. But I have no clue what to do instead, AND how to avoid all things that ruin fun.
Most games have you optimize for trying to win, and are built in such as a way that everyone doing so makes the game fun. While commander seems to have this nebulous idea of fun, that is impossible to optimize for (without extensive in-depth knowledge). Making me question whether I should really come back to commander at all.
So, ultimately my struggle is how to navigate this quagmire (knowing very little cards). But also questioning why this has to be a quagmire.
Thanks for watching and commenting ❤️❤️ yeah I think you make a good point about knowledge. Bare in mind these are opinions, not a command, but I think it's more that I don't enjoy sitting through a grindy 3h game, so I don't want to inflict that on my self or others, because I can see how a variety of pods have a similar sentiment. They don't leave that game happy they leave it drained. What's the point of that? Winning is great, I love winning, but if the result of that win is that I and the table had a crap time, did I really win? I make videos like this to get people thinking, and especially for someone new fresh in commander to maybe ponder this earlier than 2-3 years into regular games where they realize this by themselves. It again, it's all my opinion and I'm genuinely trying to be helpful. If you don't like the opinions, you can ignore them. 🤜🤛
Darksteel Plate? Kaldra Compleat? Mithril Coat? Have you never lost to one or more of these? When this situation arises, what's my option? I don't like multiple board wipes per game, but these situations need solutions, and sometimes there is collateral damage. Where applicable, I'll even straight out tell the other players "I'm going to smash everything if nobody else has an answer for this" and most times the response is "hell yeah brother! Break everything!"
All rules are meant to be smashed occasionally, and if the pod is ready to hulk smash along with you, then there's not much of an issue. In terms of the two equipment, I find exile works very well. Or at least, about 75% of the time I strap those to my creatures, I'm usually Swords'd before I untap.
@@BasedDeckDept I often play against randos in Spelltable as I feel it preps me for anything. I like never knowing what's coming. Yet in many of these lobbies, I find that I or maybe one other player seem to be the only ones playing removal. Don't know why. I enjoyed your video a great deal and I shall return for more
3 board wipes minimum 1 that doesn’t touch ur stuff( theme based) , 1 that touch’s everything or anything, and lastly a cheap one that has 4 or less mana for quick wipes ( like blasphemous act). my superfriends deck has 10 board wipes don’t want anyone touching my planeswalkers😂
Superfriends boardwipe tribal sends you right to jail
The content of this video is exactly why Commander is a terrible format that cannot and should not be taken seriously.
Guess it's not for you then, and that's absolutely fine 🤜🤛 thanks for watching friend
i feel bad now,,, i have very little experience with magic so i dont know what is fun to go against but i have a mono black maha, its feathers night deck focused on hella board wipes..... ill get a different deck @.@
Haha we all start somewhere friend. Doesn't mean you need to scrap your deck. If your board wipes are one sided and they leave your board unaffected so you can end the game, great. But if your deck takes ages to win and is constantly wiping your opponents stuff away yeah you might want to make some tweaks 😂 if I was building maha id focus on targeted spells that give -1/-1 as there are a ton. Will be less oppressive and probably more fun to play
Ben Brode as Lara Croft is not necessary in my life...but maybe it's fine that it happened.
Once I saw it, I needed to make sure I payed it forward 😂
Play boardwipe tribal. Laughs in Zurgo.
The irony of Farewell and the No meme in the thumbnail of this video when that is exactly the reason I'll play it. Your Shenanigans? Your pillowforts? Your unstoppable engines? No, no, and no. Your heroic interventions and mass graveyard recursion? Also no and no. No. just stop it now. Finis. Out of here.
That said, I only own one Farewell, and it's actually in a deck where when I pull the trigger I probably have The Initiative if not also something just hanging out in exile. Though my favorite boardwipe is often Hour of Revelation.
I think I may have said this in the video, but ironically farewell and cyclonic rift are two of the biggest offenders, but are actually also two of the best wipes when used properly. Therein lies the problem though 😂😂 thanks for watching ❤️
@@BasedDeckDept Heh, the options are much better now, not Cyclonic Rift better, but at least usable. For quite the time everything even remotely close was like Upheaval and banned. Yet, UB needed that way to break up the pillowfort board states and enchantment piles.
@@Jerhevon I wish Upheaval was legal
Board wipes aren’t even very reliable anymore anyways. You could attempt to level the playing field with a board wipe…just for 1 of the 3 other players to save their board with a single protection spell.
However…if you’re against someone playing a board wipe just because the game is going on too long for you…then play a more kingmaking style at that point of the game. If you want the game to end and don’t care about winning or who wins….then help end it. Even if that means attacking and targeting a fellow weaker player.
I have some confusion connected to this issue.
Maybe someone here could help me solve that.
I should mention also that I have slight autistic tendencies, as I imagine many do in some subcultures :P
Maybe I do not always understand the social aspects of 'fun'.
As a small edit:
I also understand that EDH is a multiplayer format, and that rule 0 exists. People agree to play this casually, and as a result, opinions will vary from playgroup to playgroup about what is acceptable. I know for example that mass land destruction tends to be frowned upon. Also by me.
The problem I try to present here is more about the unclear definition of 'fun'. And I try to present my feelings about how I disagree with this. I do not claim to know the truth, and I understand that other people will have wildly different ideas about what 'fun' is. Yes.
I also want to add, that on principle I have things that *I* do not like in the game, and that I shun away from adding into my decks. However if others play them, that's okay for them.
Infinite combos. I do not have them. I have good levels of synergy and things that work well. I have good levels of recursion. But it can all fizzle and stop, very easily.
As a result, even when I play my favorite deck, which is sort of a draw-go kind of exploration deck with Pirates, treasures, planeswalkers, yes board wipes, Party, Dungeon, Rooms and stuff, it still *regularly loses*. But it also wins a bit. That's okay I think.
End of edit.
I see this thing a bit one sided. I either win, or I lose the game. I do not think I have ever really required anything else of Magic, in the gaming sense at least.
Still, I love brewing from time to time, and I've also been very invested in the lore, at least in the past. But I do not require the actual gaming experience to be a strict lore correct escapade of the Gatewatch going canonically from world to world and then defeating Bolas. I am okay with the game being separate from the lore.
Then there are people who claim that the game should be about 'fun'. I do not think I understand what you mean by that. Some would say that, okay, yes you can of course play 45 boardwipes in your deck, but as a result, noone at your LGS will prefer to play with you. By social interaction, you and your deck design will be punished. As a result, not getting to play, would equate to not having 'fun'.
In competetive magic, this isn't even a discussion, since the only purpose is to win. Having fun is irrelevant.
For me, this creates a sort of .. hegemonical opinion I suppose, that EDH and Commander "should be about fun", and 'fun' tends to mean 'fast games'? I don't know. Others seem to claim that it means if they get to pull off their combo. Or if they get to durdle. Or if they somehow get to do something else crazy, but I mean, in the end most people just mean that they get to win. Thats the fun, it seems.
I do not understand why it is wrong for me to want to play, say, 9-10 board wipes, which I do, and I regularly get chided for it, to the point that I no longer feel that my playstyle, that I find 'fun', is accepted at the LGS. I have been punished, and it seems I deserved to be. My defensive playstyle, that yes, leads to 3h games, is not welcome. My vision of longer games being the most enjoyable, is voted down.
Instead, combo heavy decks reign. Or decks that do not want any interaction at all. In my opinion, that kind of EDH, that has banished board wipes, tends to boil down to a very stale form of games where people just take 20-30 minute long games on repeat, that basically look the same. Setup, build-up and comboing off. Rince and repeat, forever.
How is that more 'fun' ?
I think it is an oppressive and sad situation we have ended up in, and in my opinion we have stifled creativity, in the name of the greater good.
Actually I do not mind losing games, that's completely fine. But I like to feel that I have a chance to fight for myself, and I see board wipes and removal as a functional tool to achieve that. If we do not allow for that, the only thing that remains is just bloated boards that win by some inexorable fate. Flooding the board with tokens, infinite combos or some such.
I disagree with this line of thinking. And if someone responds that hey, we havent said that you cant play boardwipes at all, yes, maybe thats my autism missing that point.
I either feel that I may do something, or not. I do not see any room for compromise on a principle level there.
It's either okay to play board wipes, or it isn't. And I feel that most players tend to punish a control player for even existing in the format.
With unfair arguments about 'fun'.
I honestly think most things could and should be allowed in the format.
And if a playgroup does not want something, they can talk about that. *Really* talk about it.
Not just shame away certain things, because you do not feel comfortable.
I would have understood if people talked with eachother, but it sort of becomes absurd if say, an entire LGS would post their local rules, that these things are not allowed at all. You may not play certain commanders, you may not have certain keywords, god forbid that you would have a card that cost more than 10 euros, and you may not have a single counterspell in your deck.
So why is it okay to oppress individual players?
The game has these things in it, and except for an official ban list from WotC, I will assume that is acceptable to play. So I play it.
Best mtg youtuber!
Based as always friend
I honestly thought u where going to show me better board wipes
friend pls 💔 there is a whole list of one sided, flexible and thematic wipes here, which I referenced and it was in the description. archidekt.com/decks/10189852/baseddeckdepartments_based_boardwipes_list
Preach!
It's amusing how many problems with the commander format can be solved by talking to the table
youre a moron. might as well not play the game
frfr no cap
Softies want others to play soft with them.
For me, it's offensive if an opponent doesn't give it their all and has mercy, as it implies they think I'm too fucking soft to deal with hard plays. Just take this as if it was Chess or Go. No place for soft feelings in Chess or Go or any form of competiton. If you're over 18 and get upset about board wipes, ask yourself why are you so soft and feelings oriented if you are an adult.
Thanks for watching 🤜🤛 but lol man you should just play cEDH or normal competitive formats. I think it's more your speed.
Wipes arnt a problem, it’s how people use them that’s the problem.
letting someone win because you don't want people to feel bad about a board wipe is ridiculous.
I think you missed the point, but I appreciate you sharing your sentiment all the same 🤜🤛
Why you calling out my boy Ojer!?!?!?
Alas, he just seemed like a good removal target. I don't make the rules 🤷♂️
Board wipes are a way of life. You can be wrong
That's certainly one way to live :D
Board wipes are lame play stax instead haha
Lmao that's just swapping one crime for another 😂 stax causes most of the same problem as boardwipes. Not to say it shouldn't be played at all, but definitely a time and place kind of thing
"don't cast the boardwipe, if you're only casting it to win" is a really weird take. Why play the game then? Does "fun" mean that one player can build up to infinity because they got the cards they needed and the rest should just stand by and do nothing?
If you are annoyed that people throw too many boardwipes at your table maybe then don't produce an explosive diarrhea of cards on the board that raises everyone's attention.
Thanks for watching ❤️ that's not quite what I said. If anything the whole point of this video is don't just board wipe to reset the game, unless you really really have to because someone is dominating and not trying to win. That said, these are my opinions, I am not commanding you to play in a certain way 🤜🤛
Some board whipes are just too strong... Farewell, Cyc Rift, etc. are just ridiculous. Lame in person and lame seeing them in content creator matches.
Cry about them. Learn to run protection and get better at deck building bud
@TargetSniper365 thanks for the brilliant advice but I only watch commander on youtube anymore so I don't need to. It's just an opinion don't let it hurt you.
@@mufasafalldown8401 skill issue bitch
Thanks for watching friend hot take but Cyclonic Rift is actually fine because it's one sided. People just can't be trusted to use it optimally, and use it really, really badly 90% of the time as opposed to using it to win.
@@TargetSniper365 I think you could've made a good point about protection here without being dismissive
Board wipes are too cheap.
This political approach definitely makes for more fun. Does require social skills to pull off.
Social skills really are a super power in commander..
Your title is bad, do something else instead. Serously, these kind of titles make me skip videos, just like the YOU"RE WRONG ones.
Well, the video quite literally tells you how to play boardwipes better, and suggests a long list of better board wipes to play instead of the most common ones. It may be 'bad', but it's accurate.
using MTG as your stage to practice "politics" with your friends is one of the stupidest approaches to the game. If your pod has such a massive issue with a huge majority of the cards or playstyles youre probably better off playing a coop board game or better yet just do nothing since you seem incapable of enjoying this game unless youre ALWAYS winning.
Commander (not constructed formats) is social and can largely be whatever the pod playing wants it to be. One cannot escape the fact that it's a social format, where the time investment is usually 5-10x that of a normal 60 card game game. My takes here are specifically against those that seem to need to need to win at no cost.