Good tips from another Craig here about flat tappet cam stuff. Most failures are user related. P.s. great cam choice i have used that grind a lot, i call it the budget hotty, easy on the valve train, sounds tough as, goes really well. Re the cam,, clean/scrub ALL of the shipping corrosion barrier off with brake cleaner and thinners(it stops your prelube from working!), put a short straight edge on the nose of each lobe and check it has some taper, you can visually see even .001" with the increased length of the straight edge, fit cam in block dry, fit thrust plate, look down each lifter bore and make sure the lobe is NOT quite central in the lifter bore, throw away any pre lube supplied, rub Moly grease into all the lobes(i use Penrite Molygrease EP3%), i use this because it is NOT oil soluable so it cant run off easily and will hang around until the cam is broken in. I apply about a .5mm to 1mm layer on all lobes.(no it wont block your oil filter, cut it open after break in and this demonstrates that you would need half a tub of grease in it to block it). Lifter bores- clean each bore, make sure there are no burrs on the underside from rough cam bearing extraction/installation, using only wd40 or similar- make sure every lifter drops into every bore withzero resistance, if you need to push it in you have a problem, now check the lifter clearance in every bore, if you dont have correct bore measuring tools do it with a mag base dial indicator, at 90deg to cam centerline and 90deg to the lifter body and set best you can and wiggle the lifter, you want about .0008" to .002"(.0025" max) . Check each lifter base for convex, simple home method is to just put a strait edge against the lifter base and look at the light either side yes not real accurate but it is better than not checking. Rub moly on base of lifter only NOT on the sides, alloy engine oil to the lifter body and bore and fit lifters. Once lifters are fitted and valve train set using as few rotations as possible now do not turn the engine until you tighten convertor bolts if auto or until you start it. Fill oil pump with assembly lube(i use CRC StaLube Engine Assembly Lube here) or vasoline if you have to. DO NOT fill the filter with oil, you want the pump to be able to pick up oil immediately and it cant do this while trying to push oil out of the filter element but it can if it only has to push air out(for holden V8 use a big old type Z30 filter NOT the small filter), set the dissy, radiator and carb to run immediately, start engine at low rpm only till you get oil pressure, (6 seconds MAX or turn it off) then run at 1500 to 2000 rpm for 15 to 20 mins. Cam is now broken in. Set base idle/timing, remove oil filter and oil, fit new filter(no oil in it)fill with new oil, finish engine break in. P.s. for oil, i use 50/50mix of pentite 10 tenths 15w40 Running in oil and Penrite 20w60 HPR30, for cam break in and for the 1st oil change and ring break in, no expensive useless break in additives! Enjoy 👍
Maybe you should write a cam install and break-in manual Craig! Amazing info and thanks for taking the time to write all that out for me 👍. I do take in everyone's tips to doyble check and modify my plans. This channel has been great for that so far. Also great to hear you approve of that cam choice 😁😁😁!!
@@staceonwheels no problem and thankyou, a book, I don't know, maybe haha. But really what I'm describing is a shorter version of what any thorough engine builder does. I'm always amazed at how many people know what main and rod bearing clearance they have, what ring gap, valve lash etc but if you ask lifter to bore clearance or libe offset, taper etc they say 'thats not stuff you need to check " or just dont know. Then when something fails like a love wipes etc they are very quick to blame a cam company or their quality control. Check 'everything' and if it seems right the 1st time, check again as you may have missed something! That cam will want a full 2500rpm stall 'at the least' if you run an auto trans. When you degree it, go by the 'intake tappet rise at tdc on overlap' figure that Crow supply on the cam sheet, this is the easiest and most accurate way if you dont have the actual 'cam doctor' sheet for that actual cam you have due to manufacturing tolerances. Err on the side of 1 to 2 degrees advance on the cam.
@craig8187 not there yet. I did test fit it, and all good. But have been waiting on other parts and a chunk of time to get everything cleaned and ready for assembly. In fact, I'm on my way to the shed right now to rebuild the oil pump. Small steps!
Cam/ Lifter failure on break in has become a chronic problem in recent years, look very closely at the bottom of the lifters, they should have a slight convex curve on them with the high spot in the middle , if you put 2 lifters end for end they should rock back and forth .If they don't they may need refacing, even new lifters aren't always correctly machined . You need to make sure you give the cam a really good clean before adding copious amounts of break in lubricate. Also, you should take a close look at the roller tips of the rocker arms . The rollers can get small flat spots on them , if so, you can buy replacement rollers from Yella Terra and their straightforward to replace. Finally, when you get the heads back from the machine shot you should carefully blend the third angle of the value seat into the port and pay particular attention to the short side , the short side will have a ridge left from the cutter , this needs to be carefully radiused to leave a smooth transition around the corner. COME Racing, have a short video on RUclips demonstrating how to modify the oiling system, Holden V8s pump too much oil into the rocker covers often forcing oul down past the value stem guides so this modification is highly recommended, Sam from COME didn't mention what size the hole in the restricter hole however a 1.5 to 2 mm hole will suffice. Keep up the good work 👏
Phew lots of great info there Craig! I have seen COME's oil gallery mod but was in 2 minds if this build needs it. And yeah, I've seen a few YT videos with failures like Barnsey's. Thanks for this!
@staceonwheels I raced a 308 Hatchback Torana speedway car in "Standard Saloon" a class where virtually no modifications were allowed to the engines others than a camshaft change. All the Holden V8's had top end oiling issues with the potential to have 0 oil pressure because much of the oil is up in the rocker covers. Even after fitting 1-inch inside diameter oil, drain back hoses to the back of each rocker covers and routing them externaly down the sump it still had oiling issues. In my street driven 355 stroker that was fitted with VN heads , had the same issue that when you went through the traps at the drags and jumped hard on the brakes, oil would be forced out of the front of the rocker covers and go straight out into the vacupans and into the exhaust system producing lots of exhaust smoke . Note: The VN heads have smaller push rod holes, thus suffering from this phenomenon more so than the earlier model heads.
With the COME restriction size you are correct but also you can simply plug it there if you do the mod at the front cam bearing. I plug that particular spot with solid or hydraulic lifters, its not required with the front mod 👍
Hopefully it doesnt wipe a lobe. Have had some hit and miss issues these days. Ill usually only use johnson lifters these days. My only reccomendations would be 1: have the sprinfs professionally set up with pressure testing. Last time i used xrow springs had to shim half of them two different height shims to get them to work right. May also need to use a softer spring for break in. Last flat tappet we used was broken in on stand by the machinist. Dad wanted a warranty so i didnt assemble it. I had vacuum issues when i installed it and had it running. Wiped 12 of 16 lobes . Also had one fail on my pontiac but both were crane. I never had any issues in the day , im hoping crow still uses australian foundry and should be fine. I honestly blame the chinesium crane now use for the ft cams. That cam if goes well will be really nice with a 9-10:1 comp ratio , air gap dual plane and a nice 570-600 carby. Please dont let anyone talk you in to bigger. 650's are a choked down 750 and in my opinion way to big for even a mild 350/355/351 for a street driven car.
Yeah I've heard the nightmare cam and lifter stories too. Fingers crossed with the Crow. But I'm researching and will take all the precautions I can. There's always more to learn. Thanks for the tips and sharing your experience. Adds to the learning!
Tasty stuff. Will be glad when I’m finished with the cab to get round to the fun stuff too. Just finished the underside and started roughing the back panel up where the vinyl cover was to prime it. Floor still to be coated then the front firewall. I had a 308 when I had a sandman clone panel van, had a mild cam put in that with a 650 double pumper Holley after it had a piston disintegrate and rod went through the cylinder. Ended up trading it in for an XD falcon. Miss them both. 😢
I wonder how that piston disintegrated...? The cab work is tedious at times, so I'm kinda glad I have the 308 to play with (and my Ducati) along the way. I still haven't decide about the back panel on Trixie's cab... there is no rust and the original paint is lovely so I really want to leave it. Anyway, we're both making progress and that's fun. Spydey... you'll love your tonner as much as that sandman or xd I'm sure.
@@staceonwheelsNo idea on the piston, the guy who rebuilt it was a Holden buff and he said he never saw that before. Yeah may back panel has nothing wrong with it either but I’m scuffing it up so it can take some primer and will get a new coat sometime, just so everything is fresh really. Behind the cab is the same also, but instead of it’s current white colour I think I might make it black in the middle section for contrast. I’m sure I will like this car but the others just have sentimental memories because I was a pup back then! Took my soon to be wife to the drive-ins in the PV, t’was a good era for car lovers.
@oo0Spyder0oo yep the nostalgia is a huge part of restoring these cars. (Not many drive-ins around these days!) I like your idea for the back wall inside... I might find some red oxide primer and do the same, so it at least still looks most original for the time being.
I am interested to see how 8 sleeves go. You see almost everyone saying its a huge NO NO, but none of them.have ever bit the bullet and actually done it, I always bought into it but i was at a very big motorsport engine machine shop recently and they say they never did a Group A engine in the later years that didn't have 8 sleeves, They used flanged sleeves though, but prices that BS about "pulling the deck up" with 8 sleeves, is just BS. I am waiting on mine to be machined atm, going .040" over as she didn't clean up at .030 with the deck plate on, now tossing uo keeping my dash 3s or going VN heads. Keen to see your thing done.
Yeah I wasn't sure about sleeving the block at first, but did some research and then checked with the recommended machine shop and they said no issues at all. BUT... it did require that the water jackets be 1/4 filled for extra bottom end support. It was already bored out to .060" so no meat left for more. Fingers crossed, but really I'm confident. I won't be ever boosting it or pushing for much more than 350HP. Sounds like you have a good block - you still have room for a final bore if you need it down the track. EVERYONE told me to go with VN heads too, for more power, but that's not the vibe of this rebuild - I want it to look and feel like the 70's engine that it is, with what a petrol head would have done to it in the 80s. And with Yella Terra heads, how could I not rebuild those?
@@staceonwheels should sound good you need good heads 1.94 1.6 good port job and 10to1 comp let it flow should be a great driveing ute with 4 or 5 speed transmission
@@staceonwheels get a diegrider and port them your self it's not hard do some research nock the guide boss down and sort side clean up RUclips show me how to port heads you can do it
@darrenkingston9912 thanks - they already had some light porting. They're just as the machine shop to be crack tested and they're doing the valve seats for unleaded and 3 angle grind, but I'll be assembling them.
That would be good enough for this engine. I don't want to stress it, since it's had a rough life and now has sleeves. But that cam... I cannot wait to hear it and feel it and drive it.
Yep, im rebuilding the exact same 308, QT block turbo bolt pattern, bore standard almost no lip at all, amazing find, period correct for my HZ Premier. At the moment have a VT roller cam rod relieved block, standard bore as well, on VN heads and very expensive inlet manifold, holley 650,in the HZ, turbo 700r@@staceonwheels
Rebuilding engines is a little nerve wracking, but so exiting all at the same time. I love how you are doing it all yourself. there’s no experience like hands on. When it comes to coolant, do some research on a brand called ‘evans’, perfect for old school engines.😊 mouse
Hey mouse... thanks for the coolant tip. Will check it out. And yeah, I love learning by doing (after some researching first of course) and I never realised I could love doing this so much. Too bad I started so late.
![GM HOLDEN 304 V8 ENGINE RE-BUILD [EP1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L_yqnCfYqf8/mqdefault.jpg)
Awesome job Stace, the cam sounds perfect for what you are after.
Yeah I can't wait to hear it, and feel it. Still a long off from driving but will get it run in on a stand before too long I hope.
Good tips from another Craig here about flat tappet cam stuff.
Most failures are user related.
P.s. great cam choice i have used that grind a lot, i call it the budget hotty, easy on the valve train, sounds tough as, goes really well.
Re the cam,, clean/scrub ALL of the shipping corrosion barrier off with brake cleaner and thinners(it stops your prelube from working!), put a short straight edge on the nose of each lobe and check it has some taper, you can visually see even .001" with the increased length of the straight edge, fit cam in block dry, fit thrust plate, look down each lifter bore and make sure the lobe is NOT quite central in the lifter bore, throw away any pre lube supplied, rub Moly grease into all the lobes(i use Penrite Molygrease EP3%), i use this because it is NOT oil soluable so it cant run off easily and will hang around until the cam is broken in. I apply about a .5mm to 1mm layer on all lobes.(no it wont block your oil filter, cut it open after break in and this demonstrates that you would need half a tub of grease in it to block it).
Lifter bores- clean each bore, make sure there are no burrs on the underside from rough cam bearing extraction/installation, using only wd40 or similar- make sure every lifter drops into every bore withzero resistance, if you need to push it in you have a problem, now check the lifter clearance in every bore, if you dont have correct bore measuring tools do it with a mag base dial indicator, at 90deg to cam centerline and 90deg to the lifter body and set best you can and wiggle the lifter, you want about .0008" to .002"(.0025" max) .
Check each lifter base for convex, simple home method is to just put a strait edge against the lifter base and look at the light either side yes not real accurate but it is better than not checking. Rub moly on base of lifter only NOT on the sides, alloy engine oil to the lifter body and bore and fit lifters. Once lifters are fitted and valve train set using as few rotations as possible now do not turn the engine until you tighten convertor bolts if auto or until you start it.
Fill oil pump with assembly lube(i use CRC StaLube Engine Assembly Lube here) or vasoline if you have to. DO NOT fill the filter with oil, you want the pump to be able to pick up oil immediately and it cant do this while trying to push oil out of the filter element but it can if it only has to push air out(for holden V8 use a big old type Z30 filter NOT the small filter), set the dissy, radiator and carb to run immediately, start engine at low rpm only till you get oil pressure, (6 seconds MAX or turn it off) then run at 1500 to 2000 rpm for 15 to 20 mins.
Cam is now broken in. Set base idle/timing, remove oil filter and oil, fit new filter(no oil in it)fill with new oil, finish engine break in. P.s. for oil, i use 50/50mix of pentite 10 tenths 15w40 Running in oil and Penrite 20w60 HPR30, for cam break in and for the 1st oil change and ring break in, no expensive useless break in additives!
Enjoy 👍
Maybe you should write a cam install and break-in manual Craig! Amazing info and thanks for taking the time to write all that out for me 👍. I do take in everyone's tips to doyble check and modify my plans. This channel has been great for that so far.
Also great to hear you approve of that cam choice 😁😁😁!!
@@staceonwheels no problem and thankyou, a book, I don't know, maybe haha. But really what I'm describing is a shorter version of what any thorough engine builder does. I'm always amazed at how many people know what main and rod bearing clearance they have, what ring gap, valve lash etc but if you ask lifter to bore clearance or libe offset, taper etc they say 'thats not stuff you need to check " or just dont know. Then when something fails like a love wipes etc they are very quick to blame a cam company or their quality control.
Check 'everything' and if it seems right the 1st time, check again as you may have missed something!
That cam will want a full 2500rpm stall 'at the least' if you run an auto trans. When you degree it, go by the 'intake tappet rise at tdc on overlap' figure that Crow supply on the cam sheet, this is the easiest and most accurate way if you dont have the actual 'cam doctor' sheet for that actual cam you have due to manufacturing tolerances. Err on the side of 1 to 2 degrees advance on the cam.
@craig8187 thanks again. I'm gonna collate and save all these tips for when the build begins. I'm a stickler for doing it right too!
@@staceonwheels how did you go with this cam install?
@craig8187 not there yet. I did test fit it, and all good. But have been waiting on other parts and a chunk of time to get everything cleaned and ready for assembly. In fact, I'm on my way to the shed right now to rebuild the oil pump. Small steps!
Cam/ Lifter failure on break in has become a chronic problem in recent years, look very closely at the bottom of the lifters, they should have a slight convex curve on them with the high spot in the middle , if you put 2 lifters end for end they should rock back and forth .If they don't they may need refacing, even new lifters aren't always correctly machined .
You need to make sure you give the cam a really good clean before adding copious amounts of break in lubricate.
Also, you should take a close look at the roller tips of the rocker arms . The rollers can get small flat spots on them , if so, you can buy replacement rollers from Yella Terra and their straightforward to replace.
Finally, when you get the heads back from the machine shot you should carefully blend the third angle of the value seat into the port and pay particular attention to the short side , the short side will have a ridge left from the cutter , this needs to be carefully radiused to leave a smooth transition around the corner.
COME Racing, have a short video on RUclips demonstrating how to modify the oiling system, Holden V8s pump too much oil into the rocker covers often forcing oul down past the value stem guides so this modification is highly recommended, Sam from COME didn't mention what size the hole in the restricter hole however a 1.5 to 2 mm hole will suffice.
Keep up the good work 👏
Phew lots of great info there Craig! I have seen COME's oil gallery mod but was in 2 minds if this build needs it. And yeah, I've seen a few YT videos with failures like Barnsey's. Thanks for this!
@staceonwheels I raced a 308 Hatchback Torana speedway car in "Standard Saloon" a class where virtually no modifications were allowed to the engines others than a camshaft change.
All the Holden V8's had top end oiling issues with the potential to have 0 oil pressure because much of the oil is up in the rocker covers. Even after fitting 1-inch inside diameter oil, drain back hoses to the back of each rocker covers and routing them externaly down the sump it still had oiling issues.
In my street driven 355 stroker that was fitted with VN heads , had the same issue that when you went through the traps at the drags and jumped hard on the brakes, oil would be forced out of the front of the rocker covers and go straight out into the vacupans and into the exhaust system producing lots of exhaust smoke .
Note: The VN heads have smaller push rod holes, thus suffering from this phenomenon more so than the earlier model heads.
I'm feeling more convinced... I'll check with the guy that machined the block for me. They probably do this oil mod too.
With the COME restriction size you are correct but also you can simply plug it there if you do the mod at the front cam bearing. I plug that particular spot with solid or hydraulic lifters, its not required with the front mod 👍
Hopefully it doesnt wipe a lobe. Have had some hit and miss issues these days.
Ill usually only use johnson lifters these days.
My only reccomendations would be 1: have the sprinfs professionally set up with pressure testing. Last time i used xrow springs had to shim half of them two different height shims to get them to work right.
May also need to use a softer spring for break in.
Last flat tappet we used was broken in on stand by the machinist. Dad wanted a warranty so i didnt assemble it.
I had vacuum issues when i installed it and had it running. Wiped 12 of 16 lobes .
Also had one fail on my pontiac but both were crane.
I never had any issues in the day , im hoping crow still uses australian foundry and should be fine. I honestly blame the chinesium crane now use for the ft cams.
That cam if goes well will be really nice with a 9-10:1 comp ratio , air gap dual plane and a nice 570-600 carby.
Please dont let anyone talk you in to bigger. 650's are a choked down 750 and in my opinion way to big for even a mild 350/355/351 for a street driven car.
Yeah I've heard the nightmare cam and lifter stories too. Fingers crossed with the Crow. But I'm researching and will take all the precautions I can. There's always more to learn.
Thanks for the tips and sharing your experience. Adds to the learning!
Tasty stuff. Will be glad when I’m finished with the cab to get round to the fun stuff too. Just finished the underside and started roughing the back panel up where the vinyl cover was to prime it. Floor still to be coated then the front firewall. I had a 308 when I had a sandman clone panel van, had a mild cam put in that with a 650 double pumper Holley after it had a piston disintegrate and rod went through the cylinder. Ended up trading it in for an XD falcon. Miss them both. 😢
I wonder how that piston disintegrated...? The cab work is tedious at times, so I'm kinda glad I have the 308 to play with (and my Ducati) along the way.
I still haven't decide about the back panel on Trixie's cab... there is no rust and the original paint is lovely so I really want to leave it.
Anyway, we're both making progress and that's fun. Spydey... you'll love your tonner as much as that sandman or xd I'm sure.
@@staceonwheelsNo idea on the piston, the guy who rebuilt it was a Holden buff and he said he never saw that before. Yeah may back panel has nothing wrong with it either but I’m scuffing it up so it can take some primer and will get a new coat sometime, just so everything is fresh really. Behind the cab is the same also, but instead of it’s current white colour I think I might make it black in the middle section for contrast. I’m sure I will like this car but the others just have sentimental memories because I was a pup back then! Took my soon to be wife to the drive-ins in the PV, t’was a good era for car lovers.
@oo0Spyder0oo yep the nostalgia is a huge part of restoring these cars. (Not many drive-ins around these days!) I like your idea for the back wall inside... I might find some red oxide primer and do the same, so it at least still looks most original for the time being.
I had a similar specd cam in my 308 torana and it was awesome on the street, went hard also
I can't wait to find that out too.
I am interested to see how 8 sleeves go. You see almost everyone saying its a huge NO NO, but none of them.have ever bit the bullet and actually done it, I always bought into it but i was at a very big motorsport engine machine shop recently and they say they never did a Group A engine in the later years that didn't have 8 sleeves, They used flanged sleeves though, but prices that BS about "pulling the deck up" with 8 sleeves, is just BS.
I am waiting on mine to be machined atm, going .040" over as she didn't clean up at .030 with the deck plate on, now tossing uo keeping my dash 3s or going VN heads. Keen to see your thing done.
Yeah I wasn't sure about sleeving the block at first, but did some research and then checked with the recommended machine shop and they said no issues at all. BUT... it did require that the water jackets be 1/4 filled for extra bottom end support. It was already bored out to .060" so no meat left for more. Fingers crossed, but really I'm confident. I won't be ever boosting it or pushing for much more than 350HP.
Sounds like you have a good block - you still have room for a final bore if you need it down the track. EVERYONE told me to go with VN heads too, for more power, but that's not the vibe of this rebuild - I want it to look and feel like the 70's engine that it is, with what a petrol head would have done to it in the 80s. And with Yella Terra heads, how could I not rebuild those?
That cam is perfect for watt your building
Thanks for the reinforcement! I cannot wait to hear it.
@@staceonwheels should sound good you need good heads 1.94 1.6 good port job and 10to1 comp let it flow should be a great driveing ute with 4 or 5 speed transmission
@darrenkingston9912 the heads are yella terra so L34 valve sizes, currently being cleaned up. Transmission, not sure yet...
@@staceonwheels get a diegrider and port them your self it's not hard do some research nock the guide boss down and sort side clean up RUclips show me how to port heads you can do it
@darrenkingston9912 thanks - they already had some light porting. They're just as the machine shop to be crack tested and they're doing the valve seats for unleaded and 3 angle grind, but I'll be assembling them.
Keen to hear it Lump.
Not more than I am! 🤣
Duration and lift makes for a good choice
Should make around a horsepower per cube
That would be good enough for this engine. I don't want to stress it, since it's had a rough life and now has sleeves. But that cam... I cannot wait to hear it and feel it and drive it.
The rebuild looks good with those quality parts🤠
It won't be a cheap rebuild, but we gotta spend it on something hey?
Yep, im rebuilding the exact same 308, QT block turbo bolt pattern, bore standard almost no lip at all, amazing find, period correct for my HZ Premier.
At the moment have a VT roller cam rod relieved block, standard bore as well, on VN heads and very expensive inlet manifold, holley 650,in the HZ, turbo 700r@@staceonwheels
That 308 is a very rare find! Will be interesting to see what you do with that. Where is your VT engine going?
@@staceonwheels The VT is in the HZ and fully registered, so i don't really need the 308 now, its out of a 78 HZ GTS, i wrote it above (read more)
Rebuilding engines is a little nerve wracking, but so exiting all at the same time. I love how you are doing it all yourself.
there’s no experience like hands on.
When it comes to coolant, do some research on a brand called ‘evans’, perfect for old school engines.😊 mouse
Hey mouse... thanks for the coolant tip. Will check it out. And yeah, I love learning by doing (after some researching first of course) and I never realised I could love doing this so much. Too bad I started so late.
LUVS ya work 👍👍👌👌