Are These Pieces for You? Comancheria [GMT Games, 2016]
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- Опубликовано: 8 фев 2025
- Get my thoughts on this game, the good, the tough-to-grasp, and overall impressions on indigenous stories as told by non-indigenous designers.
Timestamps:
00:42 - Intro
02:11 - Gameplay Overview
12:36 - Review
17:13 - Indigenous Narratives in Gaming
Comancheria on GMT Games:
www.gmtgames.c...
Comancheria on BoardGameGeek:
boardgamegeek....
For more on who gets access to leisure, games and game design, read Elizabeth Hargrave's excellent article:
stonemaiergame...
An Indigenous movie writer's view on "Killers of the Flower Moon":
www.vox.com/20...
![Are these Pieces for You? Fire In the Lake [GMT Games 2014]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/i3z3ReVhv1Y/mqdefault.jpg)
Love the name of the review series. Played this game extensively and I have to say, one of the simplest yet elegant AI systems I’ve ever seen. The game is a little unforgiving, but that’s part of the fun!
Navajo Wars is great as well.
I’m eager to try that now, sounds like Comancheria was a good intro to this series for me.
This is a fantastic vid, thank you
Thank you for the kind words!
I disagree with gatekeeping over who gets to tell these stories. It doesn't matter who they are (white, brown, native, European, whatever) but rather how well they tell the story. White North American/European males telling these stories doesn't prevent other people from also telling them. Much of what you and I know about these cultures comes from books like Empire of the Summer Moon, In the Hands of the Great Spirit, The Earth Shall Weep and The Heart of Everything That Is, written by such men. They are valuable resources that are only diminished if they tell the stories poorly. They, in fact, pique interest and awareness of these native cultures and deliver the start of an appreciation for what native people were like and went through when North America was settled by Europeans.
It would indeed be intriguing to see a game on this subject designed by a truly native of the subject (not some .01% blood Comanche). And as far as I am aware, there is nothing preventing that from happening. The sentiment to want to hear the voices of the natives telling their own story is commendable and it would great to see more of that.
But about a third of this video on Comancheria is dedicated to questioning who gets to tell stories about Native Americans and, for me, it feels like too much white knighting and/or white guilt at play. I see no reason to struggle with reading books, watching movies and playing games about this subject area that created by non-native people. I say enjoy them, applaud them and also seek such things that are created by Native Americans themselves.
Thanks for chiming in, I appreciate the input. I believe the fact is that there are lots of conversations happening around books, movies and TV shows that tell the story of, or portray, Indigenous people - so I'm trying to apply the same focus in these games as I approach them.
...but as for when I play a game like Comancheria, I'm all in the narrative! My head is deep into the game. So I agree maybe more time could be spent giving my thoughts on the gameplay itself, but I do see that in other reviews which is why I choose so much of the other topic in my review. Sorry if that came off a little too white-guilty, I can see how that would be the perception.
Either way, I really do appreciate the feedback. I'll probably move on to another topic next, but don't expect this to be the last you hear from me on the topic ;) Here's hoping you tune in next time - Cheers!
Thanks for this great overview of the game 😊👍
No probs! Ready to tackle this one? 😉
@@WdTPD absolutely not 🤣 but I really like those kind of games, that tell great stories. I'll just have to wait for the reprint, here in Germany 😅
Thanks.
I must admit, I was quite puzzled by the level of puzzle this game seemed to bring on your moral radar.
Here's an example, you asked:
"Is it ok to play and enjoy a game that tries to tell an honest story of the Comanche people when it was designed and presented by someone that isn’t from that culture specifically?"
Your answer was “well for now it’ll have to do.”
When the answer is quite obviously “yes.”
Perhaps the question was rhetorical, I get that.
Joel made a great (and respectful) game here about the Comanche people. Whether he is black, white, yellow, red, whatever - has no quantifying effect on the game.
Personally, I would hate to not have certain histories showcased in various media because there were no longer any living members left available to represent it... How could such a rule or standard ever begin to exist?!
Not trying to be defensive - Just trying to give some sound clarity to what seemed to be perhaps a bit cloudy.
Thanks for chiming in... and yes, the question is somewhat rhetorical, and I answer it myself. It is a good game, it is insightful, immersive. The sentiment "it will have to do, for now" might seem unsatisfactory, but the reason the question comes up because this is something being asked of other media - movies, books, TV, etc. I want to hold games to the same standard.
This is about the power of delivering the narrative being in the hands of the people so they can tell their own story.
Your point "certain histories showcased in various media because there were no longer any living members left available to represent it" is a very good one. I'd rather the story be told by anyone than no one at all. However there ARE still descendants of the Comanche people alive today, and their access to oral history, or academic for that matter, may be limited. And that itself is a tragedy.
Thanks for watching!
It is indeed a shame that the people you speak of didn't create those media. Why is that? It may possibly be thst they are not interested. Maybe there are other reasons, if you wanted more of an answer, may e go and speak with them.
Couldn't agree more on this
Was watching until you droned on and on with woke BS on who should or shouldn’t design these games and some garbage about his affiliation with a church yadda yadda yadda just review the f’ing game and leave out your political garbage. This is the problem with society yet luckily it seems to be burning off.
No. I’m only gonna get more political so SUCK IT.
Before you ask me to suck it, have you decided on your pronouns??
Good video aside from some of the political commentary.
how convenient it is for some of us to not have our mere existence deemed "political" so that we can discount or ignore things we deem too "political".
I watched this video and your follow up video. I'm Keeping this as constructive as possible!
I more or less agree with your review of the game and game play. As for all the social commentary, I respectfully disagree with a lot of it. Before I go further, I consider myself fairly left wing, so I'm definitely being as charitable as possible with your takes. This is definitely not me trying to "cancel" you or just accuse you being an "SJW" or "white knighting".
Should more of these games be designed by actual natives (in the US, native is considered a perfectly PC term, so please don't come back with "they are called indigenous!". I'm speaking how we talk. Just be happy we don't say "injun" or "savages" anymore.)? Yes! Absolutely! However, who would design them? Out of 323* million Americans, how many are game designers? Less than .01 percent for sure. There are roughly 6 million natives left according to a quick Google search. How many of them are game designers? Probably close to zero I'd wager. Even if there are some, are those designers even interested in making a game like this? So if Joel isn't telling these stories, then who is going to?
Sure, Joel is part of a church. But his church likely hasn't committed genocide against the natives. Roping him in with the past church is extremely unfair, imho. Which, as an atheist myself, I hate that I'm having to run apologetics for a church. My co-worker is Catholic, but it'd be insane to think he is a "peter file" just because the Vatican can't seem to do the right thing on that front.
I think any scholar, which I consider Joel to be, has the right to tell stories like these. For me, it's all about intent. Joel went way out of his way to make sure the stories he was telling were accurate. He chronicles it in the designers notes for both games.
At the end of the day, I just see these as board games. I've never put so much thought into a theme that I've considered not playing it. Hell, I'm still perfectly A-okay with playing the original Puerto Rico. The genocide of the natives happened at least a century before I was even conceived. What's happened has happened. That said, whenever native treaties are violated, like Standing Rock pipeline protest, I do tell my representatives to knock it off, or I'll vote them out. What else can I do? Is me refusing to play a board game going to do anything? It seems to me only white people online will care. I bet exactly ZERO natives care about a random white guy in Indiana (no the irony in the name of my state isn't lost on me) refusing to play a game because some other random white guy designed it.
I really just don't see the point in that commentary, but it's your channel. You do you.
Hey there - as a fellow lefty/atheist, lemme just say - "hi!" Call me an SJW if ya wanna, won't bother me ;)
I appreciate the constructive disagreement, and I'm also a data guy so taking a look at this from a "probability" perspective, I can totally understand. Reality is - yeah there's more white/settler-descendant folks on this continent that can take the time to engage in games like these, whether it's playing them or designing them. But I still maintain there's room at the table for more diversity in this space.
Playing a game like Puerto Rico is something I'd still struggle with, but I'd go in knowing that I'm looking at it through a critical lens of what kinda settler "oversimplification" it's contributing too (which I hope you do too). To answer "Is me refusing to play a boardgame going to do anything?" in that case I do think we have skin in the game to look at the people around the table and say "look... what is REALLY going on in our little story here?" That's me though, I personally can't shake those thoughts. I don't feel a game is ever "just a game" as much as a movie is "just a movie"; there's a narrative and a point of view being presented. Value is assigned to certain things, those are all choices the designers and storytellers make.
So yeah... I'm gonna go me, but thank you again for watching! I hope you can tune in to future vids as well :)
@@WdTPD Of course there is room at the table for native designers! But what I'm asking is who is going to sit at the table? I can't even think of a native game designer. Let alone one that is interested in native history and wargames and wants to tell that history in a wargame. Does such a person even exist? You're acknowledging the reality but you aren't making the logical jump to: Well, since literally no one like this exists, I guess it's better than someone like Joel Toppen is telling these stories instead of someone like Matt Walsh, Ben Shapiro, or Steven Crowder.
Yeah, we'll never see eye to eye on games just being games. I'm fully convinced that I could enjoy a game about running the most efficient concentration camp, and if the mechanics were strong enough, the theme wouldn't bother me at all. That's because I'm an adult and I realize that pushing wooden pieces around on a board is not an endorsement concentration camps. Just like watching the Terminator is not an endorsement of making crazy AI and nuclear war.
As for watching more of your videos, it really depends. I love that you reviewed this game, and you had keen insights on the gameplay. It's a great one, and I think more people should try it.
But I wouldn't be interested in videos where you question who can and can't make a game based on the theme. I absolutely love Rising Sun. It's NOT designed by a Japanese designer. I don't care. Nor do I care to listen to someone say Eric Liang had no business designing it. Moreover, I especially don't care about Koreans who say I should burn my copy because what that flag means to them. I have the same opinion: WW2 happened. It was awful. But Japan is a totally different country now that is working on healing diplomatic relations with Korea.
Super last thing. Whenever I tell people about Navajo Wars or Commancheria, I always tell them they are the worlds most depressing board games. You literally can't win. There is no scenario where the natives rid themselves of the settlers. All you can do is have more tribes NOT in reservations than on them at the end.
That's a perfect description to me.
I'm VERY confident there are some Native-descendent people that are interested in engaging in this space, as a player or designer. Do they maybe not feel as welcomed if they see tables full of white dudes, or if said white dudes are wearing military garb, or some confederate memorabilia? Regardless, they are out there - there's actually quite a legacy, in Canada and the US, of Natives joining the military and participating in some of the major conflicts in the past century, many decorated war heroes. So even from that perspective, there's interest.
It's good to know that you're an adult capable of separating the game experience from potential advocacy of past gruesome behaviours, but in more subtle cases like Puerto Rico the harm may come from stereotypes being reinforced, and erasure of people that actually built the things that the player is pretending to build. Some folks may just be taking these messages at face value and not using much critical thought - that's my worry.
I raised the question of "who can and can't make a game" (not how I'd phrase it, necessarily) and sort of answered it by saying "yeah... sure!" and I'm happy with result of the game itself. The question was meant to kick of some discussion which I think is needed - and again, thank you for contributing to that discussion! Any activity on this vid only raises the visibility ;) I won't pretend to be the only person that can ask or answer the question. But IF we're still having this discussion in 10 years and things haven't changed - ie, we don't see more diversity in game designers' backgrounds - I'll be honestly disappointed.
And oooof yeah, I hear you on "world's most depressing board games". And I keep coming back for more!
Cheers, Jacob...
@@WdTPD Please name ONE. Literally ONE native descendent (and preferably one with AT LEAST 50% native DNA (none of this Elizabeth Warren bullshit)) who is a board game designer, a war game designer, AND wants to design a first nations historical war game. Please, name ONE. I'll put a Canadian Ben Franklin (I don't know who is on the Canadian hundred dollar bill if it even exists) that one literally doesn't exist. So there's no magical table full of dude bros, mall ninjas, or good ole boys keeping these designers away.
I'm with you! I'd love to see a native American game designed by a proud native. Sadly, my ancestors wiped too many of them out.
Klee Benally, designer of Burn the Fort, comes to mind. I know at least one other local wargamer who is Native that has some great ideas for designs on First Nations conflicts.
I honestly don't expect a game designer, fully formed by your definition, with that lived experience and ancestral history to drop from the sky. What about other story-tellers that have approached books, movies, other art forms, who may not be aware that historical game design is an outlet? This is why I suggest folks like Joel, and to a certain extent Domnhall as the artist, could potentially work with folks from Indigenous backgrounds as a starting point, introduce them to the hobby as a means of storytelling and creative output. I address that further in my follow-up video.
That was a good video I would also like it if natives of any culture would also make their own media the fact that white men had anything to do with this should be irrelevant, the color of your skin should not dictate anything. If this were made by a color other than white, would you have the same issues?
Good question, thanks for asking... note that I use a generic term like "white man" as short-hands for the notion of "White, Christian, from the colonizer class in North America" (as do many people when discussing topics related to post-colonial approaches to North American history). This transcends just the idea of "colour of skin". As much as many folks like claim "colour of skin doesn't matter", that throws away entire centuries of social constructs around ideas of race in this part of the world.
To answer the question "if this were made by a color other than white, would [I] have the same issues?" hard to say. This flavour of "white" the designer comes from - ESPECIALLY one so close to the church - needs to tread carefully and thoughtfully. And as noted in the video, I believe he does. White North Americans have a very specific proximity to the topic, which may come with it's own baggage. Whatever that baggage is, I feel Joel has left out and given us a rich and engaging narrative that pays homage, rather than tokenizes, the Indigenous subjects.
@@WdTPD agree with most of what you said, I do, however, believe in Dr. Martin Luther King. ...one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
I do believe the less people discuss their differences the more we come together.
@@deadlyminion1981 Well, that's where we disagree "The LESS people discuss their differences, the more we come together" uh, no... I can't get behind that. "Put our differences" aside works when we're arguing Coke vs Pepsi, but peoples' LIVEs are affected by how their marginalized and racialized. That's why the language is shifting to words like "racialized"; their race is a construct foisted upon them by systems of oppression. So taking this back to White Americans educating and telling the stories of Native Americans, White super-structures have racialized and marginalized Natives for centuries - again, I believe Joel has transcended that issue nicely and handled this narrative with respect. Most of us, not actively (but in general), white folks like myself benefit from a system and world where those Natives are predominantly disenfranchised. If anything, I *WANT* to learn more about what makes them unique, either their culture or their struggle. "The less people discuss their differences" sounds a lot like when people "don't see colour" which is not helpful (or truthful, honestly). We all have unconscious biases, and "not seeing colour" in this context means not seeing someone for how they are treated in a society where they can be potentially marginalized or "othered". The Dr King sentiment is nice, but ask yourself what you're doing to "live in a nation" like that one day. I don't believe that "not discussing differences" is the path forward. Here's a deeper article to read on the topic. www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2022/06/19/dear-white-people-when-you-say-you-dont-see-color-this-is-what-we-really-hear/
@@WdTPD some good points, I would like to point out that the idea that marginalizing groups isn't something new, we don't hear about the slavery going on now, nor do we hear about how every race has enslaved itself and others throughout history. Barbary pirates are a good example of a time where it didn't matter much on where you were from, who you were, or why, the issues on understanding go much deeper than any surface level stuff going on in America. The oppression Americans have in comparison to historical treatment of others is trivial. I'd like to have picked up a book at my school and read about more than just the African slaves being bought by England etc. there is so much more to that, and there is so much over looked that is extremely important. I think at the end of the day, the main point is, we are human, we are great at oppressing others, and we love war. I believe as I've gotten older and more cynical that the best way to live is to just embrace who we are. Anyway, good thoughts, you're much more positive than me. I will mention I'm not a white man, and I'm in an interracial marriage. I don't see my spouse as a different race, it quite literally barely occurs to me in fact. I just see people.
I have no problem with a white guy who studied this topic creating this game. Actually, I prefer seeing such a product being done by non native then being done by the native. Why? Because generally speaking natives are not objective at all and their product would be selfgrandionizingly bad.
ok... a lot to unpack there. "generally speaking natives are not objective at all" is an EXTREMELY sweeping and dismissive statement. I've just got through (most of) "Heartbeat of Wounded Knee" by David Treuer, an Indigenous writer who dives into plenty of facts and documented accounts - as an example, and I'm sure there are countless others who offer the same treatment. Passing off their stories as "self [-ag]grand[i]zingly bad" is, itself, a non-objective judgment call on your part, so... touché?
It's fair to point out that any one Indigenous person's presentation of these narratives aren't, by default, more genuine or accurate - the point is to have MORE people with the lived experience tell the stories. There are dozens of games where Native North Americans are "portrayed" by white designers, and white storytellers, where their greatest qualification is that "they have experience designing games". What I'm saying is there needs to be more "at-bats" when it comes to designing and creative narratives FROM these new perspectives - or at least new in the game design space.
I agree with you partially. I am saying Indigenous designers don't qualify to be able to create better/more objective games just on the merit of them being Indigenous. It takes lots of work in research and unbiased data to make a good, historically objective product. I am seeing lots of biased nonsense from Indigenous people online so my guess would be the one I put out without discrediting great Indigineous individuals who are able to distance themselves a little bit from the current paradigms that are in play in their circles and use real data.
You sounded (to me) like a woke-ish person in the video gloryfing the future Indigenous designers like their products would be amazing fresh from the owen while downplaying the game on the merit of designer being a white male. If that wasn't what you tried to convey them I apologise.
When I said I wanted to "have the conversation" around topics like these, I meant an adult conversation.
Between your sweeping generalizations, insistence on this period of history being "historically objective", outright dismissal of Indigenous voices being considered in game design (again I'm talking Indigenous *input* on these designs, not swapping Joel out and replacing him with someone "unqualified") and now you're invoking the famous "w" word... I don't think you're ready for that conversation.
I also don't think you understood what I'm trying to convey. I'd ask you to watch again to better catch my meaning but at this point you should probably move on; save your apology. You probably won't like much else I have to offer on this channel if you're concerned with the message being "too woke" on something this benign.
Oh, so you consider my reasoning juvenile then. Right. I am not "outright dismissing Indigenous voices being considered in a game design", that is what you said. I'm all in for Indigenious input as long as it is checked and not freely inserted just becasue of them being "insiders" and hailed as such. Again, the amount of things I have seen online claimed by Indigenous guys that is completely historically erroneous is what piqued my interest back in the day. The pattern is quite obvious and the reasons for that being the case are understood.
Checked your FB page and seeing you are an open Anti-Israel and Pro-Palestine (which translates into pro Hamas and pro Iran actually) cheerleader kind'a confirmed my hunch about you.
@@Obalcan I worked with a guy who wanted to make a wargame about New Zealand. He had originally given it a title like "Maori : the cannibals". I introduced him to some Maori video game designers, and to put it bluntly, he wouldn't listen to a damned thing they said. He was obsessed with the cannibalism thing, despite that mostly be an artifact of propaganda. The last incident of Kai Tangata (ritual cannibalism) happened about 50 years before the last recorded incident of Royal Navy sailors eating each other.
But he was hung up on it. Kept it in his game. Not all sources white designers use are valid for one thing, especially not histories of cultures written by people who had a vested interest in making those people sound evil, primitive and stupid.
I know this will likely go in one ear and out the other, because you seem to be desperately wanting to make white guys the victim. But this is the reality of what happens when know-it-all white designers think they know best. Joel Toppen is far far more respectful than this other guy ever was.
Oh, and im easy to find on facebook if you need to stalk me. I have a you tube channel, bluesky and instagram too if you want to come yell at me for being woke. Or, you might just have a think about how people who live in a culture might actually know something about their own culture, and that western authors might be carrying a ton of bias with them.
This was the first time I started watching a video and hit subscribe and before the end unsubscribed.
Hi!
Bye!
My thoughts exactly