Vikram Sampath is on point countering every point of these so called historians . especially the last point when he talked about CPI and murder of Mohandas Gandhi . Brahmins were killed in our maharashtra
Historians are talking about the availability/non-availability of evidence but what about the narratives which are set without any primary historical pieces of evidence like Hindu kings demolished and destroyed Jain & Buddhist temples. This narrative has been set by some influential historians for what purpose?
They take one example of Mahapadma Nanda of destroying the Jain Temple at Kalinga and use it for the argument that Ferozshah Tuglaq and Mahapadma Nanda were both anti-Hindu and idol breakers.
This was not a debate on the intricacies and philosophy of history but a bitter political debate. Each trying to press on the other, what history is and should be. Could not have a better show on occupational closure.
I can say, Prof. HABIB is getting too emotional, Gandhi is being downplayed by those very people who ones worshipped him. Prof. Habib might be skilled history, but really he doesn't as a professionalism vibe, ....I was Skeptical about Dr. Vikram, but he was really good, ...also i liked the professional temper displayed by Dr. Haidar, and Dr. Tripur Daman.
It was a stimulating discussion. Could have been more stimulating, but for the undertones of intellectual arrogance in the arguments put forth by some panelists. No prizes for guessing which ones. But then, such things cannot be avoided. Overall, Argumentative Indian is doing a wonderful job. Have watched a few other discussions also. Keep it up.
When we talk about distortion of history it is mainly the history taught on school. The NCERT Textbooks mainly. Neeraj Atri has written a book 'Brainwashed Republic' where he lists out several inaccuracies and deceptive means used by the authors to put across their narrative. He also talks about them regularly in their podcast. You might find some of his takes to be extreme, but is soft spoken and is definitely an intellectual giant.
not a very interesting discussion at all. everyone sticks largely to their own position and do not acknowledge the strong points made by the other side. Vikram Sampath less so, others more so. There should have been some other persons to stand with Vikram's position too otherwise it seems a lopsided panel. Am particularly disappointed by Irfan Habib's statements. Maybe he should have been more generous in spirit and acknowledgement and more open-minded and less curmudgeonly. the moderator should have been someone much more knowledgeable in historical matters Disclaimer - i am not at all a hindutvawadi, am very much against them. Am not a leftist too. Am just a modern Indian trying to find his way through these 2 opposing (and therefore so much alike !) sides.
Unfortunately when the gap of knowledge and intellectual capability is too big, it is difficult to have an discussion. Otherwise, we would have things like Gish Gallop. Plus, it is out of question to ask such bizzare questions like re-writing history. It's not ancient world and we have had some suprise discovery of scrolls. Medieval history is based on sources and we can only work with them. Imagining some bizzare ideas
1:07:00 I agree that there shouldn't be a selective bias in telling of history but in your example of Marathas killing Hindus or Bengalis, the question arises whether the killings or genocide happened with the religious identity in mind? Otherwise its just a collateral damage of war, which is unfortunate but a reality of war. But it makes you uncomfortable, as a historian, to acknowledge that most of the Islamic atrocities were done on the basis of the religious identities. Ask the right questions, otherwise its just gaslighting.
Don't know how was Haiders' last 2line Persian story was a counter to Vikram. Vikram said, all blind men come together to complete the elephant image. Habib telling; A blind man walking with a lamp so that other people don't knock him down ...😂.
It would have been even better if panel had equal representation(like Dr Meenakshi Jain, Vikram sampath, Koenraad Elst vs Dr Habib, Vaidik,Haider) but still civilized debate hope tv channels learn from podcasters 😂 one more debate on this topic with balanced panel would be superb
Incorrect.... There is only one non-historian. And it seemed very clear to anyone who has some basic idea of what they're talking about how Vikram struggled in this discussion. He was trying to sound very soft spoken... Quite opposite of what he generally is in news chaneels😂😂
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz yeah stupid the irfan habib has already been exposed in the ayodhya ram mandir judgments case i dont have any reason to trust any Marxist historian and if you think that the panel was equal in the representation of view points then you are just lying to yourself
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz for every leftist historian mugal invasion is one of the best thing that could had happen to india there if no large temple complex in north india older than a 1000 years because all of them where destroyed by the islamic invaders
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz what do you mean in islam it is mandatory to destroy temples of the pagans and a large part of the destruction happened of the buddhist shrine hence the name buddhparast
One of the worst video which I ever seen on RUclips and one of the worst debate which I ever saw on RUclips. you know they brought only one point of you which is leftteast exception Vikram Sampat
As one panalist says garam gatah truth is truth if history is presented unbiased then there is no problem but when it is found openly that the history presented to us is biased with a motive then the problem arises if we are made to believe that Mughals and Britishers history is the real medevial history then we have to suspect the intentions of the historians even the literature of the invaders which is available to us in black and white is hidden from us and new archialogical as well as literary evidences which come to light are to be suppressed only to prove that what ever has been presented to us has to be believed as true in total then the intentions have to be suspected if we come to know that the history which is presented to us is malafied then the necessity to revisit and rewrite our history Britishers who were faithful Christians who believed that the earth was created only 6000 yrs back and when they realise that our history goes beyond that and in order to fix within their bibilical history and the other historians who want to hide the atrocities committed by the then invading rulers then we can't accept that history anymore it's time we find the truth and present the same to the people jaihind
The truth is Mughal history has been written and rewritten the most because of the various books available to use as source and hence it makes it very easy... no one or very few want to go to the roots or places which will have other history. U will find 1/2/3 people who would have written about a particular period of dynasty of South & NE... Must lakhs have written about the mughal era... hence it reflects in our textbooks and also in general life more... as humans and especially Indian we will always look for an easier way.
@@argumentativeindians 1:12:08 Maybe it was some technical glitch, there are 2 more.... By the way thanks for such discussions, this channel is a goldmine.....
Finding it hard to listen to Vikram Sampath's nonsense. He is not even a historian by training. How is it that we suddenly have these hate driven whiny people talking of history?? Who is without blood in his hands in history??? And I did not understand how India was one civilization from time immemorial?? Were the shudras a part of it? Were the different worshippers, religious beliefs, languages one civilization OR were there various kingdoms, in Srilanka, Central Asia, subcontinental India? Werent the Vaishnav different from the Shaivites??
His PhD is in historiography of music. So, he is a historian. Although, not an 'eminent historian', as per Arun Shourie. No one is without blood on their hands. That's true. Point is to isolate and call out those who have innocent's blood on their hands. Killing those who just happen to be from a faith than the one officially practiced is cruel. Arrian does record that the Gymnosophists of India (digambars) had an idea of India even during the time of Alexander. Different faiths were found in the IVC also. We see phallus worship, animal sacrifice seals, warrior female seals, etc. Shudras were definitely a part of the Indic civilization as several maharishis were born out of low caste parents. Maharishi Parashar married matsyagandha, a fisherwoman.
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz music or medieval History. Both are humanities. In both subjects, research methodology for researching a humanities subject is the same. It is taught in MA itself. It is a common subject. In PhD, there is specialization on a particular topic.
@@vinod.19 I still don't think it is like that. Sampath doesn't seem to be familiar with medieval history. Otherwise, he wouldn't keep saying these things.
Irfan Habib was best. He basically shut Sampath on this, who seems like kept most of his points to himself! Too scared to utter it and have it destroyed!
Dear Vikram you should study the blind before you make any derogatory remarks about them. Im sorry to say that your knowledge about the visually challenged is very limited and devoid of rational analysis. You should know homer was also blind and in your country you should be knowing about Surdas who wrote a lot about lord Krishna. You can also keep in mind John Milton the poet and in modern time David Blunkett who served as education and home minster in the UK. Remember the prime minister of India has given the title to the disabled “Divyang”. So my dear friend these people have divine power. They don’t require any historical interpretation from you. In the end I seek apology from you about the statement you have made about the blind and the elephant.
Vikram Sampath superb!!!
Vikram Sampath is on point countering every point of these so called historians . especially the last point when he talked about CPI and murder of Mohandas Gandhi . Brahmins were killed in our maharashtra
True.
Vikram Sampath was amazing 👏
Rightly mentioned by Arun Shourie: Eminent Historians!!!
Historians are talking about the availability/non-availability of evidence but what about the narratives which are set without any primary historical pieces of evidence like Hindu kings demolished and destroyed Jain & Buddhist temples. This narrative has been set by some influential historians for what purpose?
Rightly said
They take one example of Mahapadma Nanda of destroying the Jain Temple at Kalinga and use it for the argument that Ferozshah Tuglaq and Mahapadma Nanda were both anti-Hindu and idol breakers.
can you give details as to how "This narrative has been set by some influential historians" - for my understanding
Vikram Sampat... One man army 🙏🙏🙏
What Vikram said .. that's make sense.
Thanks for demonstrating that a debate can be conducted in decent language and without much noise. Need more such stuff more regularly. Good work!
Thanks for your encouraging comment, glad to know you like it !
This was not a debate on the intricacies and philosophy of history but a bitter political debate. Each trying to press on the other, what history is and should be. Could not have a better show on occupational closure.
Very nice interactive session. Liked the views of Mr. Sampath. The big thumbs up to the host, yajur Arora, as well for this great session. 🙏
Thanks a lot!
Terrific debate. All panelists were to the point.
I can say, Prof. HABIB is getting too emotional, Gandhi is being downplayed by those very people who ones worshipped him.
Prof. Habib might be skilled history, but really he doesn't as a professionalism vibe, ....I was Skeptical about Dr. Vikram, but he was really good, ...also i liked the professional temper displayed by Dr. Haidar, and Dr. Tripur Daman.
It was a stimulating discussion. Could have been more stimulating, but for the undertones of intellectual arrogance in the arguments put forth by some panelists. No prizes for guessing which ones. But then, such things cannot be avoided. Overall, Argumentative Indian is doing a wonderful job. Have watched a few other discussions also. Keep it up.
Thank you. Really appreciate the encouragement.
When we talk about distortion of history it is mainly the history taught on school. The NCERT Textbooks mainly.
Neeraj Atri has written a book 'Brainwashed Republic' where he lists out several inaccuracies and deceptive means used by the authors to put across their narrative. He also talks about them regularly in their podcast.
You might find some of his takes to be extreme, but is soft spoken and is definitely an intellectual giant.
not a very interesting discussion at all. everyone sticks largely to their own position and do not acknowledge the strong points made by the other side. Vikram Sampath less so, others more so. There should have been some other persons to stand with Vikram's position too otherwise it seems a lopsided panel. Am particularly disappointed by Irfan Habib's statements. Maybe he should have been more generous in spirit and acknowledgement and more open-minded and less curmudgeonly. the moderator should have been someone much more knowledgeable in historical matters
Disclaimer - i am not at all a hindutvawadi, am very much against them. Am not a leftist too. Am just a modern Indian trying to find his way through these 2 opposing (and therefore so much alike !) sides.
Unfortunately when the gap of knowledge and intellectual capability is too big, it is difficult to have an discussion. Otherwise, we would have things like Gish Gallop. Plus, it is out of question to ask such bizzare questions like re-writing history. It's not ancient world and we have had some suprise discovery of scrolls. Medieval history is based on sources and we can only work with them. Imagining some bizzare ideas
Vikram sympath don't be meek ....when one need to speak
1:07:00 I agree that there shouldn't be a selective bias in telling of history but in your example of Marathas killing Hindus or Bengalis, the question arises whether the killings or genocide happened with the religious identity in mind? Otherwise its just a collateral damage of war, which is unfortunate but a reality of war. But it makes you uncomfortable, as a historian, to acknowledge that most of the Islamic atrocities were done on the basis of the religious identities.
Ask the right questions, otherwise its just gaslighting.
💯
Short answer: ya
Long answer: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees
Btw this is such a great and underrated channel!
Thank you!
4:1 really?
Don't know how was Haiders' last 2line Persian story was a counter to Vikram.
Vikram said, all blind men come together to complete the elephant image.
Habib telling; A blind man walking with a lamp so that other people don't knock him down ...😂.
Najaf Haider's example of the old man with the lamp is laughable. This is the poetic peak of establishment historians.
It would have been even better if panel had equal representation(like Dr Meenakshi Jain, Vikram sampath, Koenraad Elst vs Dr Habib, Vaidik,Haider) but still civilized debate hope tv channels learn from podcasters 😂 one more debate on this topic with balanced panel would be superb
That's why nowadays nobody watches TV. People look forward to OTT, RUclips and Curiosity Stream.
@@vinod.19 yeah they're full of nepotism , that's y they don't value content,which hard working online people do atleast
@@shailsharma2865 today is the age of free market economics. Say no to cultural Marxism in the name of political correctness.
the panel is quite representative just one right wing person😂
Incorrect.... There is only one non-historian. And it seemed very clear to anyone who has some basic idea of what they're talking about how Vikram struggled in this discussion. He was trying to sound very soft spoken... Quite opposite of what he generally is in news chaneels😂😂
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz yeah stupid the irfan habib has already been exposed in the ayodhya ram mandir judgments case i dont have any reason to trust any Marxist historian and if you think that the panel was equal in the representation of view points then you are just lying to yourself
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz for every leftist historian mugal invasion is one of the best thing that could had happen to india there if no large temple complex in north india older than a 1000 years because all of them where destroyed by the islamic invaders
@@oooo-ui1ml As if only religious sect of rulers destroy temples lol😂
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz what do you mean in islam it is mandatory to destroy temples of the pagans and a large part of the destruction happened of the buddhist shrine hence the name buddhparast
A civilized way to debate.
One of the worst video which I ever seen on RUclips and one of the worst debate which I ever saw on RUclips. you know they brought only one point of you which is leftteast exception Vikram Sampat
A lot of background noise.
Irfan listen Greece parthian and become hindus after settling in india
As one panalist says garam gatah truth is truth if history is presented unbiased then there is no problem but when it is found openly that the history presented to us is biased with a motive then the problem arises if we are made to believe that Mughals and Britishers history is the real medevial history then we have to suspect the intentions of the historians even the literature of the invaders which is available to us in black and white is hidden from us and new archialogical as well as literary evidences which come to light are to be suppressed only to prove that what ever has been presented to us has to be believed as true in total then the intentions have to be suspected if we come to know that the history which is presented to us is malafied then the necessity to revisit and rewrite our history Britishers who were faithful Christians who believed that the earth was created only 6000 yrs back and when they realise that our history goes beyond that and in order to fix within their bibilical history and the other historians who want to hide the atrocities committed by the then invading rulers then we can't accept that history anymore it's time we find the truth and present the same to the people jaihind
The truth is Mughal history has been written and rewritten the most because of the various books available to use as source and hence it makes it very easy... no one or very few want to go to the roots or places which will have other history. U will find 1/2/3 people who would have written about a particular period of dynasty of South & NE... Must lakhs have written about the mughal era... hence it reflects in our textbooks and also in general life more... as humans and especially Indian we will always look for an easier way.
Why are there jump cuts??
Can you please point out where you found jump cuts? Thanks
@@argumentativeindians 1:12:08
Maybe it was some technical glitch, there are 2 more....
By the way thanks for such discussions, this channel is a goldmine.....
@@AA-re8jd yes we had a disruption in the Zoom meeting at that point. Thanks a lot for the encouraging comment.
@@argumentativeindians use earphones sir
Finding it hard to listen to Vikram Sampath's nonsense. He is not even a historian by training. How is it that we suddenly have these hate driven whiny people talking of history?? Who is without blood in his hands in history???
And I did not understand how India was one civilization from time immemorial?? Were the shudras a part of it? Were the different worshippers, religious beliefs, languages one civilization OR were there various kingdoms, in Srilanka, Central Asia, subcontinental India? Werent the Vaishnav different from the Shaivites??
His PhD is in historiography of music. So, he is a historian. Although, not an 'eminent historian', as per Arun Shourie. No one is without blood on their hands. That's true. Point is to isolate and call out those who have innocent's blood on their hands. Killing those who just happen to be from a faith than the one officially practiced is cruel. Arrian does record that the Gymnosophists of India (digambars) had an idea of India even during the time of Alexander. Different faiths were found in the IVC also. We see phallus worship, animal sacrifice seals, warrior female seals, etc. Shudras were definitely a part of the Indic civilization as several maharishis were born out of low caste parents. Maharishi Parashar married matsyagandha, a fisherwoman.
@@vinod.19I hope you understand music and medieval history are very very very far from away.
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz music or medieval History. Both are humanities. In both subjects, research methodology for researching a humanities subject is the same. It is taught in MA itself. It is a common subject. In PhD, there is specialization on a particular topic.
@@vinod.19 I still don't think it is like that. Sampath doesn't seem to be familiar with medieval history. Otherwise, he wouldn't keep saying these things.
@@MaxPayne-fi1mz I found most of his views agreeable, barring few. Nobody is perfect. We both can keep our differences to ourselves. Peace ✌
Irfan Habib was best. He basically shut Sampath on this, who seems like kept most of his points to himself! Too scared to utter it and have it destroyed!
Aparna Ma'am is absolutely brilliant!
Dear Vikram you should study the blind before you make any derogatory remarks about them. Im sorry to say that your knowledge about the visually challenged is very limited and devoid of rational analysis. You should know homer was also blind and in your country you should be knowing about Surdas who wrote a lot about lord Krishna. You can also keep in mind John Milton the poet and in modern time David Blunkett who served as education and home minster in the UK. Remember the prime minister of India has given the title to the disabled “Divyang”. So my dear friend these people have divine power. They don’t require any historical interpretation from you.
In the end I seek apology from you about the statement you have made about the blind and the elephant.
Vikram used "blind" as a metaphor. I can tell you it wasn't his intention to deride blind people.
Guy is offended for nothing