What does God know? Open Theism, Calvinism and Arminian views analyzed with scripture surveyed
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2017
- What limits are their to God's knowledge? Does God's foreknowledge mean that I don't have free will? What does the Bible say about this stuff?
Here is the video on "If God Is Good Why Is There Evil?" • How to Answer the Prob...
I’m drinking coffee right now . I’m ok if God is making me or it’s my freewill . Lol 😂 great video brother!
It is true that if God knew from the foundation of the world that you would drink that coffee that would mean we don't have free will, but more significantly, God Himself doesn't have free will because He couldn't stop you from drinking the coffee
@@BandyAndysExcellentEssays how does knowing automatically determine a choice? And your presupposition of God not having free will because he couldn’t stop him from drinking the coffee is false because God is omnipotent. The flood is a great example of God stepping in.
@@MrKingcarella23 I believe that God COULD stop him from drinking the coffee, which means that him drinking the coffee is uncertain. If the future is certain then God wouldn't be omnipotent.
@@BandyAndysExcellentEssays explain if the future was certain God couldn’t be omnipotent
@@MrKingcarella23 If the future is certain not only are you and I cogs in a machine with no free will, but God Himself has no ability to change the future. In Jeremiah 18:7-10 God says explicitly that if He says He will do something but then the circumstances change, He will not do that which He thought He would do. There are many other verses especially in the Old Testament showing that the future is uncertain, but they are largely ignored by most Christians because they contradict the classical view of God where God is in control of every event and knows the future exhaustively.
Thank you so much for your opening statement!!! This is a discussion between brothers and sisters in Christ.
As Calvinist, I really respect the tone from this guy.
Agreed...
Chad... the answer to this question is far deeper than some simple apologetic so please, just consider what I am asking you _before God_ (I know your reasoning before Team Calvin):
God has set forth the expectation that men become disciples of Jesus, in His Body, with NO EXISTING SUBDIVISIONS.... so why then would you *_even want_* to self-identify as a disciple of John Calvin? They are two distinctly different people.... _like it or not_ John Calvin is NOT Jesus Christ and you can not serve 2 masters... so why would you ever self-identify as a disciple of a human??
@@inTruthbyGrace It's a label. Nothing more. The term "Calvinist" has nothing to do with the man, John Calvin. A Christian can be "calvinistic" without ever having read anything by John Calvin.
It's simply an historical reference term used to distinguish certain Christian believers from, say, Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, Arminians, Romanists, Eastern Orthodox...etc.
No Calvinist is "serving" John Calvin, or "having 2 masters".
For example, if you told me your Soteriological views, and your views of Theology Proper, I could tell you which camp you fit into, Historically (Pelagian, semi-Pelagian, Arminian...etc.).
This is why a knowledge of Church History and Historical Theology is very helpful.
I would say that they are actually indispensable for proper Christian education; Christians NEED to be studying Church History and Historical Theology.
Hope this helps.
*Soli Deo Gloria*
@@inTruthbyGrace Calvinism is just a label that makes it easy to identify someone. Like I would consider myself a reformed baptist Christian. It makes it easy for someone to know EXACTLY what I believe.
inTruthbyGrace,
The term Calvinist was generated by opposers of the doctrines of sovereign grace. It’s not as if those who believe these doctrines chose to identify themselves as anything other than Christian. It’s not a gospel distinction but a soteriological one.
I’ve found your videos on Calvinism and Arminianism very interesting, balanced and helpful. Would love for you to do a video regarding Provisionism which is gaining much momentum currently.
I really appreciate your presentation. I own a book entitled (I think) What Does God Know? (And When Did He Know it?) You hav inspired me to read it. (Yes, I buy books that I “intend” to read. I guess only God knows if I ever will. :). Your humility combined with openness and thoroughness makes you an exceptional teacher and proclaimer of God’s truth. None of us get every minute detail right, but God honors our pursuit of truth. I appreciate your pursuit of truth as Biblically revealed. Blessings on your continued ministry.
Geez I wish I could have a conversation with this guy. So many good ideas to flesh out.
For what it's worth I'm glad you chose to edit and upload the video. I always get so much out of your videos. It's always a blessing when I see a new upload of yours. 😉
I'm not Calvinist but I do really enjoy watching John MacArthur on the Grace to You channel. I have a lot of respect for him and I learn a lot from watching him as well. I do find the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism extremely interesting. But I believe that God gave us free will at the end of the day and that salvation is available to anyone who desires to have it.
+c17slug sounds like we have a lot in common. :)
Mike Winger I don't think Calvinism is correct but I have nothing about love and respect for MacArthur. I've seen some sermons where he stood up for the Gospel, the divinity of Christ, and the truth that no man gets to the Father expect through Christ like you wouldn't believe. Absolutely love that about MacArthur.
He also strikes me as highly intelligent and committed to the faith. Really enjoy listening to him even though I disagree with a couple of his stances. As long as everyone agrees on the core, fundamentals on Christianity (that Jesus was God in the flesh and that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day) we should strive for unity in the church.
I also find you highly intelligent and committed as well, which is why I really dig your channel. RUclips as a whole has been an incredible blessing to me. As much as I love my local church (and I absolutely do; I have a fantastic local fellowship here) it's not a 24/7 thing like RUclips. I get so much more out of my spiritual growth because of channels like yours and about a dozen others I like to follow (Grace to You included 😉). It's just incredible. I even found a church in Australia (Calvary Melbourne Australia is the channel name) that uploads a lot of great stuff to watch. I really do appreciate what you and a lot of others on RUclips do.
+c17slug thank you!
Tom Bladecki To me verses like 1 John 5:7 (and yeah we could argue if it belongs there I know 😉) and the baptism of Jesus where all three were present seem pretty cut and dry to me. At the baptism we saw the Spirit descending upon the Son while hearing the Father speak.
I believe that we can never fully understand the Godhead with our finite minds. I don't agree with the Oneness stance. I've always been taught that God is three (Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit) and that these three are one.
That's just my opinion on it and how I read the text. I may be wrong and I may be right. I just know that I can't hope to fully understand the divine nature of God in my current (fallen) state.
But what I do know is that Christ loves me and died on the cross in my place and that He offers me eternal life through His blood. I believe in His death, burial, and resurrection and that all I have to do is accept Jesus into my heart. I also know that Jesus is the only way to Heaven. No man can get to the Father except by Jesus.
I know we are supposed to judge our brothers and sisters' fruits but I also know I can't see into a person's heart. We may disagree on secondary issues but anyone who preaches the Jesus of the Bible is okay in my book. 🙏
Anyway that's my thoughts on the matter. I hope you have a blessed day.
Tom Bladecki greater in number , have you read genesis 18 ? And death of the body doesn't mean to cease of existence
He exists outside of time, but we do not. Our choices come from true free choice, but effectively they have already happened, only we are too small and too bound by time-space to perceive it.
Why did he have to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah?
Hell would Not make sense if we don't have free will.
All this calvinist are Wrong because they don't follow the bible, they actually follow Calvin john thoughts
@@notusedexerHe didn't have to go down there - just like when He constantly says throughout scripture that a city/people's sins have finally reached unto heaven - it's not that He didn't know about their sin already - it just reached a certain point and He pronounced judgement. Basically God wanted to go see
What does it mean to be "outside of time" ? Where is the Delorean, doc? Seriously what Scripture is that " outside of time"? It's not in the Bible.
@@notusedexerif we believe God and His word it was "to see" and "to know". Why would we doubt that?
Open theism. A new subject for me and my first thought was “what does Mike say about it” and low and behold here it is!! Thanks Mike. Looking forward to watching this.
really? THAT was your FIRST thot?
not "what does God have to say about this?"
hmmm....
that's interesting
"What can we know about predestination - we'll get there next week" I know (or at least I think ) that was not intentional, but I laughed out loud 😀
I love your teachings, you lay scripture out for me in a way that I can understand and I believe you are teaching under the watch of the Holy Spirit and I thank God for your help (and other teachers I listen to here and in my church) God bless you
LOL Great point!! That is too funny.
Yea predestination is taking out of contacts
I always thought pre-destination was a joke amongst believers, but no, no, it's a real theology
Mike, I just met you at ETS in Ft. Worth. I asked you about matters brought up in this video. This was very helpful. Thanks!
I'm by no means a beginner in the realm of soteriology, so this presentation was entry-level stuff to me, but I still enjoyed watching it because Mike Winger is a charismatic and even-handed teacher. His explanations for views that he doesn't agree with are gracious and accurate; he doesn't use strawman arguments or _ad hominem_ attacks.
I just love your work Mike!
I soooooo enjoy watching and learning from you Mike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THANKS SOOOO MUCH FOR THESE WONDERFULLY POWERFUL EDUCATIONAL VIDEOS. Your broken brother in christ, ROC
Thank you great message!
Thank you Pastor Mike
The "what if" option (middle knowledge) presented is called Molinism. William Lane Craig espouses this view.
Douglas Walker
A middle knowledge sound like probabilistic, God know with great certainty what we are going to do however, until we do it is not 100%.
Christ follower I think you’re talking about open theism. Middle knowledge is not only God knows the future but He also know the what if. And middle knowledge is the only view that allows the sovereignty of God with free will with the least amount of contradictions in itself.
Yes molinism. The view with tons of problems and has been debunked several times
@@javariusjavarlamariuslamar3759
Yep. Molinism and Open theism both have logical problems for me. Like the notion of "time and space". We live in time and space, but God lives in eternity. Therefore all things are present time to God. The future, past and present are all the same thing to God who lives in eternity. There is no future to know because it's His present. He knows all things, otherwise He wouldn't be able to give clear prophecy.
@@tessw9744 yes that's fair. However, Molinism is simple.
1. Human beings have a (limited because of sin) libertarian free will to make any choice that is in accord with their nature.
2. God knows the choices we WOULD make in different circumstances.
3. God uses this knowledge for his glory. One way is in placing people who would by his grace believe in various circumstances in the EXACT place where they would absolutely but freely believe.
Bro, at the beginning of this vid I didn’t hear the little chipmunk singing
BIBLE THINKER...
What’d you do with him?
Aaaalviiin!!
🤪
Good teaching bro...
Thanks a lot for upstaging me Mike.
Thanks Pastor Mike
Is the Almighty telling us something here we do not really appreciate?I
Isaiah 46:8-11
Remember this, that you people may muster up courage. Lay it to heart, you transgressors. Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me; the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do’; the One calling from the sunrising a bird of prey, from a distant land the man to execute my counsel. I have even spoken [it]; I shall also bring it in. I have formed [it], I shall also do it.
Yes. He is telling us that the people can remember the things He said at the beginning. He told them judgement would come if they left Him, now He is about to do it.
I really appreciate the content, but it’s a real strawmanning of open theism. God still has knowledge of all truths and still knows specific aspects of the future, but certain aspects/events are not “exhaustively settled.” It all depends on how time and creation are structured
Well said. I love Mike, but I don't think he's ever given open theism a totally fair shot. I still love him and recognize his brilliance, though!
I have prayed a lot about this. Recently, I have come to accept both. I don't think it is either/or. I think it belongs only to God as he needs or sees fit. Actually...I love this. I find comfort in allowing this belief. Walt
"There is an infinite number of things God knows; There is an infinite number of things God doesn't know."
I agree. Arminianism doesn't quite cover the bases, and neither does Calvinism.
The point that most struck me was that God knows every possibility, so that when things happen and we begin to question God, he's already considered the other possibilities that we, in our not so great understanding, think are somehow better.
Love this, thank you so much.
Mike I really respect your teaching and have learned a great deal. You do misrepresent open thiesm however. Do you have a video that gives OT a fuller treatment?
He doesn't he just has this and a video where he insults it
I believe that God is
1: Infinitely Omnipotent Infinitely all Powerful
2: Infinitely Omniscient Infinitely all Knowing
3: Infinitely Omnipresent Infinitely everywhere and everwhen at once.
Amen
God is *NOT* infinitely Omnipotent. In Jesus' Name.
The other two statements aren't nearly as blasphemous, and I know you are coming from a good place, so I am not mad at you or anything like that
Proverbs 27:5
@@EricSmyth4Christ
Eternal, for ever, from everlasting to everlasting.
God exists in eternity past, present and future, God is an eternal being, if you go back in time quadrillions of years, God is there, if you go forward in time quadrillions of years God is there, this is the erternal nature and existence of God, that in my book qualifies God as being "Infinite"
Psa 41:13 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Psa 93:2 Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.
Psa 103:17 But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;
Psa 106:48 Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the LORD.
Isa 63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
Then there are the scriptures that reference God's "eternal" existence, we experience time, but God is timeless, we only mark time because of the way God setup the Sun, Moon, stars and Earth, as the earth oribits the sun and rotates once every 24 hours, we experience night and day, weeks months and years, we are born, we live for awhile and our mortal body dies. but the soul lives forever.
In order to exist from everlasting to everlasting, God must be infinite, it matters not how far back or how far forward you go God is there, and that makes Him infinte, as a finite being like us could not be timeless existing eternally in any time direction backwards or forwards or in however many dimensions, God is there.
@@dennishagans6339 I agree he is infinite, but God cannot do everything
@@EricSmyth4Christ
Yes you right, there are things that God cannot do,
1: God cannot lie
Titus 1:2 (KJV) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
2: God cannot be tempted with evil
James 1:13 (KJV) Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
There are some others but I would have to look them up.
So yes there are things that God cannot do related to His character, this must be taken into account when we consider such verses as
Matthew 19:26 (KJV) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Great job Mike. 👍🏽
Its interesting that from a very young age, I have believed in the idea of the 'middle knowledge' without actually knowing the term or the theology behind it. I received a type of picture of it a few years later when I first heard in science about the concept of the multiverse.
I am not correlating the multiverse with the middle knowledge but the model of the multiverse just seemed to me like a decent picture of what middle knowledge might look like. Nice to finally hear some scripture on it.
Obviously, this is not the end of discussion.
I think this view makes more sense of the whole Bible. I think about for instance the moment Moses dishonored God and now God had to punish Moses. Obviously it’s God’s desire for people to obey him but we have the choice and when we don’t obey Him then God must act as is appropriate in that situation. God’s plans will come to pass even though we as humans disobey along the way. The people he chose at the end of that journey through the desert got to enter the promised land. Was it his will for more people or everyone to have entered? Seems like it but people chose to rebel and God had to act appropriately and now only a few were allowed to enter, excluding Moses himself. This seems to me to reflect God’s heart with his plan of salvation for all. His will is for all to be chosen or “elected” to enter eternity with Him but he must act appropriately when people rebel against him and want nothing to do with him, by not repenting and putting their trust in Jesus.
Seeing it through this example, wouldn’t we consider only the people that entered the promised land as those that were chosen by God? That would be true at that point of time, but this wouldn’t make the point that God had not chosen everyone else. Instead he gave everyone the same opportunity but some people chose to rebel against God instead.
Very good!
Now apply that logic to Paul on the road to Damascus 😉 Did God ‘act appropriately’ against this rebelling man? Or showed him undeserved mercy and pulled him out of sin and destruction forcefully?
@@Lena.9Forcefully? No.
An interesting thought to put out there, God knows the future because He can create or speak the future into existence when He wants. In the case of free will, He asks Abraham to sacrifice Isaac without speaking faith into him. Instead, Abraham freely chooses faith and God writes the rest of his story for us. Just a thought.
“Freely chooses,” means nothing. Free of what? God’s influence? Abrahams’ own nature? Who exactly created the Abraham that made the choice to sacrifice Isaac?
@@Creshex8 It actually means a lot. Love your neighbor as yourself..., Thou shall not ..., Who so ever believes in Him... are few example of times we choose freely and God's people are to choose according to the direction of the Holy Spirit, yet we fall short sometimes due to free choices. God was not limited to directing Abraham's path but when He wanted to test his faith, He allowed Him to make his human decision which put his trust in the LORD. Hence, the way out was provided by God. God created Abram just like He created you and I but if we had been put in the same situation as Abraham's we may have questioned God or chosen differently. So Abraham broke the barrier that separates logical thinking and thinking by faith. Job hanged in there and trusted God but King Saul did not. We all choose freely but it does not mean that limits God from choosing our paths when deems. He chose to send us His one and only Son. We have to choose to believe in Him. Thanks for the questions.
keep up the good work mike. i very much enjoy your talks.
Thank you.
What is your church's denomination Mike? thank you very much for explaining this. I had difficulty understanding this during my youth.
He's from a Calvary Chapel. You can Google their statement of faith.
When I read the comments below and also in the video itself I’m surprised that everyone seems to think of foreknowing as looking into the future. In my understanding God is already in the future - and in the presence and past. “I am” is always “I am”. God is not restricted by, but exists outside time. That is also the definition of eternity. A constant now. Not infinite time.
Comments?
Lasse Peterson Yes amen great point!
The fact that God knows the future is not dependent on God meticulously predetermining every last detail of the future.
Neither does God need to “look down through the corridors of time” in order to know the future.
God knows the future simply because He’s IN the future!
ISAIAH 57:15
15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that INHABITETH ETERNITY, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
He’s the Alpha and the Omega AT THE EXACT SAME TIME.
He’s not the Alpha and THEN the Omega.
He’s not going to one day be the Omega.
He’s CURRENTLY as we speak the Alpha and the Omega:
REVELATION 22:13
13 I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST.
He’s outside of time and space and not contained within it that it should limit Him.
He PRESENTLY inhabits the future.
He PRESENTLY inhabits eternity.
God is ALREADY in the future.
He’s ALREADY in tomorrow.
He’s OUTSIDE time and space.
He’s FAR ABOVE ALL HEAVENS:
EPHESIANS 4:10
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up FAR ABOVE ALL HEAVENS, that he might fill all things.)
The Bible says God is the one who is (present) Who Was (past) and Who is to come (future)
A clear description of linear time.
Now your turn. Show me where the Bible says that God is experiencing past present and future simultaneously
Hey Mike, @ 25:32 - the 'weird philosophical thing'. Have you spent 20 minutes on it in any video?
This video presents an extreme view of Open Theism which is held by a minority of Open Theists. Thus, while not a strawman its far from an accurate representation or critique of the view at large..
Check out Dynamic Omniscience to see why most in analytic philosophy of religion affirm it.
What bible translation are you using? If like to make sure I am following along with the same one. Thank you!
+Steffie_Ehm I am using the NKJV
Mike Winger thank You!
@@MikeWinger - Have you ever considered engaging in a moderated debate about this subject , or any other thing that you believe and teach ?.
The other side[s] can probably throw around as many Scriptures as you can , and it would be interesting to see how you and they would do when you are not speaking on your home court and to your own crowd .
As a Non Calvinist, in my view if God is that of the TULIP doctrine I have absolutely no issue saying that He is an evil God. Because In TULIP there is no free will meaning of God doesn’t save me it is His doing not mine. Therefore if God punishes me it is for something I had no choice in that He caused me to do. I don’t know about anyone else but this god I’ve presented is evil and I personally don’t have a problem with saying that.
the point i always make about the free will debate is that it places the person asking it in the same plane as God, whereas we are all actually trapped here, on earth, in chronological time. if you really examine the question, you will see that it assumes a certain hubris, an elevation of mankind and our minds to the level of God, and then uses this to try to argue for spiritual weakness.
The thought that God knows everything comforts me more than that He doesnt know everything.
"There is an infinite number of things God knows; There is an infinite number of things God doesn't know."
Sorry to push you down that rabbit hole xD
Love your username btw
We need the whole context of Romans 8:29 to make it not redundant on the Calvinist view:
"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be firstborn among many brethren." The point is not that whoever God chose, He chose; the point is that if God chose you _for salvation_ , He also chose you _for sanctification_
That's how I see it too. I'm sorta in a debate with someone who is leaning towards Calvinism because of all the verses that talk about predestination including romans 8:29. This was helpful. Thanks
@@ryanfieldflower602 "Pre-destination" in the Bible is pre-or-diz-mo in the Greek which means "To appoint beforehand"
It's NOT talking about 16th century Augustinian Pre-destinationism
Mike as an open theist, I was disappointed with your not dealing with the idea that God does not like some things, but he is also surprised by them.
Since making this video I have discovered a lot more info about open theism than I was aware of before. I plan to do a more comprehensive treatment of it at some point in the not-so-near future. I hope you’ll find that to be thoughtful and on target.
@@MikeWinger Look forward to it. By the way Skylar Fiction spoke highly of you when talking about Christians he had debated. He still wasn't persuaded, but said you were smart and thoughtful (my paraphrase).
@@leonardallen1750 does God ever say he’s surprised?
I know this comment is super old but do you mind sharing where we see that in the Bible?
@@mige8492 Yes in Isaiah 5 God says He was expecting grapes from his vineyard but got wild grapes instead.
In Jer 3:7 God says He thought Israel would turn to him, but they didn’t.
In Jer 19:5 God says it didn’t even enter his mind that Israel sacrifice their children
This are just a few examples that proof Open Theism
I’d love to see Mike Winger discuss Calvinism with Allie Beth Stuckey!
Your opening puts me in mind of God's comment to Job's friends. He doesn't condemn them but He's not impressed with them either.
I guess it depends on your definition of condemn but actually He did. He tells them "they did not speak right of Me." And also they had to go ask Job to pray for them so God would forgive them. Another little allusion to the need for a Mediator.
Mike, in your understanding, how does God's testing his people to see what is in their hearts fit in with His omniscience? Specifically, why does he say he wants to see what is in their hearts if he already knows? (example: Deuteronomy 8:2) I realize some examples of this wording in other places of the Bible seem to suggest it is more for the people's sake to see what is in their hearts, or rather to bring forth character through the testing, but in some examples, like the Deuteronomy one, it seems like God really is seeking some specific information from how they will respond. Thanks in advance.
@Strefanasha Nice answer.
it’s for others to see. When God tested Abraham, He already knew Abraham would obey. But still tested him for other to see or for Abraham himself . And until something happen God can’t prove. Say I know what’s gonna happen in the future, and I’m the only one who knows it. The only way I could prove I have foreknowledge is that if what I said actually happen.
mumung7 let’s try a simple reading comprehension question. According to what God said, what did He learn?
Gen 22:12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
@@mumung90 As Winger said in the video, that explanation is an attempt to "get God off the hook". See? It can work both ways.
God said "now I know." If God already knew, then he was lying.
I'd like to ask a question on the topic of Calvinists wanting "Foreknowledge" to mean "Fore-loved" and referencing the Old Testament word "Know" as in Adam knew Eve (wink, wink). Wouldn't an easy refutation of this idea be that in the OT the word "know" is translated from the word "yada," and therefore definitions/connotations of that word (know, loved) aren't going to be the same for the Greek word "proginosko"? So, unless "ginnosko" is used at some point to mean "love" in the NT, then trying to connect it to the OT word becomes a non-sequitur. Let me know your thoughts on this issue. Thanks!
Adding to my comment: In the Blue Letter Bible app "ginosko" is pulling up as "Jewish idiom for intercourse between a man and a woman." It doesn't mention "Love." So, I'm thinking there IS a bit of a connection, but if it's just about intercourse, then wouldn't "Adam knew Eve" not even mean "Adam loved Eve"? It would just mean "Adam and Eve 'got to know each other a little better wink-wink'"?
Funny enough, the Hebrew for this is "Yada-Yada". Seinfeld anyone?
I am sure someone else has already mentioned 1 Samuel 23:9 when David asked God about his battle plans. Best example of foreknowledge that I know.
What if God knew what the other army was planning and every detail and God knew that so He gave Israel the best way to defeat them. That’s why when they went to war without God and his proper timing they would lose. That’s why proverbs says to trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. But in all your ways acknowledge him and He will direct your paths.
So at 40:00 Mike’s solution to the question of what “Those whom He foreknew” means is “He knew everything.” So the verse would say, “For God knew everything, he predestined everyone he knew everything about to be conformed to the image of His Son…”
I could continue down the list in Romans 8:30, but I hope you get the point. One has to be a scriptural contortionist to come to that conclusion.
The future is not settled. I have started to believe that more and more
Then you have fallen for the heresy of open theism.
@@Creshex8 How are you defining heresy and how would you defend this position that Open Theism is such? As I understand it, to claim something is heresy is to claim it is wrong on a salvific issue. If so, this is a very serious accusation, and I do not think it applies here.
Open Theism affirms that God knows all things which are logically knowable. That includes all endpoints of all possible choices, both on the part of God and man, everything that would happen in the path to each endpoint, everything about those paths, &c.. It affirms that God has complete authority and control over everything in the universe, and that He at least sometimes (I get the impression from the Bible that it's fairly extensive, but that's not necessary for Open Theism) either directly causes something to happen, or restricts the available possibilities such that it happens, which is equivalent. But where it differs from Calvinism/Arminianism/Molonism is that it makes the claim that God allows us some degree (again, how frequent this is is not claimed by Open Theism in the most general sense) of Libertarian Free Will (LFW). We see this most prominently in the repeated calls throughout the Bible for various peoples to repent and turn to God. If the people being told to repent did not have both the ability to choose to respond to God's call, and the ability to choose to reject His call, then God calling them to repent would not make sense: the natural reading of the text indicates a choice, real and true, being offered Israel in specific instances in the OT, and people in general.
This is not to make the claim that Molinism (nor Arminianism nor Calvinism) is un-Biblical, simply that there is scriptural basis for a belief in Open Theism, and to claim something is heresy is a very severe accusation which should not be bandied about without accompanying reasoning.
@@StrategicGamesEtc who is the LORD? A Being who knows all or does not? Your attempt to elevate God’s knowledge to knowing outcomes is as absurd as saying I am omniscient because when I tell you to choose A or B, I know the outcome will be that you choose either A or B! Or I can say I am a stock market prophet because I know it will go up or down. WOW! Even men have that type of knowledge.
The Bible does NOT testify God is only in control sometimes or occasionally makes changes to help His intent, like he is some kind of guy watches his fish in a fish tank. Read all of the OT and tell me where God is constantly frustrated by surprises from men’s free will. No, you have not paid attention to the message of the OT, with the constant and relentless disobedience of the Hebrew people. The calling to repentance doesn’t prove men must have the LFW to repent, the message of the Bible is they CANNOT REPENT! This is the teaching of Christ, the message of the OT which is belabored unrelentingly, the message of Romans. Men are NOT free, they are ENSLAVED to sin. NO ONE chooses God, NO ONE fears God, not even ONE! That is why ALL of salvation is of God, including God freeing the will of man to repent and believe.
2 Timothy 2:25 opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth...
Where is your free will here? How does man have a free will if repentance is something that God has to grant?
You have missed the clear message of scripture, twisted God into a finite being to accommodate man having a sovereign will (which he does not have), and are resting your salvation on such a being? Good luck in avoiding a heresy charge. Neutering God has been a pretty universally condemned means that’s generally regarded as heresy.
@@Creshex8 God, amongst other things, knows everything which is logically possible to know. If something is logically impossible to know, such as the last digit of pi, God does not know it. I believe God knows pi to infinite accuracy in every conceivable number base, but not the last digit, because that does not exist (at least in whole number bases >= 2).
God knows if a person faces a choice, A or B, that they will choose one or the other, yes, but His knowledge extends far beyond that. If they have that choice, it is because He has allowed them it, not because He must (as Pelagianism would claim) allow them it. God knows every possible future following from either of those choices, taking into account which subsequent choices He will allow to be made in each case. God knows all the consequences of A and B both before the choice is ever made.
The Bible does not testify that God is only in control sometimes, and neither does Open Theism. God is always in control, He simply allows some real choices to be made. This is not loss of control, it a control so perfect that no human action could ever dent it. God allows humans to make choices, and some of those choices involve trying to struggle with God. This is, of course, futile on our part. God does not dictate literally everything, but nothing is ever out of His control.
God's grace freeing us enough from our sin nature in order to be capable of choosing to repent is consistent with Open Theism. That said, so is us having the ability to repent all along, though in this case it should be clarified that in the Open Theism view God would choose to allow us that option, so I don't think the difference is very major here.
All salvation is from God; we cannot save ourselves; we have every one gone astray. This said, whether God allows us at least at times to have the option of repenting, or if His grace changes us to allow us to repent, we still arrive at the situation where we must make a choice to repent and turn to God for forgiveness of sins. God clears the way, and forgives if we ask with a sincere and repentant heart, but it is us who must make that choice which God lays before us. (Open Theism of course deals the same with other choices, but the choice of who to turn to for salvation is the most important any of us will ever make)
2 Tim. 2:25 appears in context to be compatible with God's grace allowing us the ability to repent, which as mentioned above, is itself compatible with Open Theism.
God is absolutely not a finite Being, I'm not sure where you're getting this. Open Theism claims that God has greater knowledge than Molinism, Arminianism, or Calvinism do, so if Open Theism denies God's infinitness, then so do the others.
@@StrategicGamesEtc your rant is philosophical gobbledygook, and it’s not supported with scripture. I notice I cite scripture but you don’t. That’s the trend with heresies.
There is going to be one future, if God does not know that future, He is not all knowing, and is certainly not greater in omniscience than the Calvinist God, who knows the future with certainty. That definitionally makes no sense.
This makes sense to any reasonable person. Now you can go off and write 3 pages explaining how knowing less somehow equates to knowing more, which is what you just did.
Mike, I like your ideas on middle knowledge, foreknowledge, and fatalism. However, while this is an in-house debate between dear brothers and sisters in Christ, I do think Calvinism/Arminianism is a gospel issue, because atonement is at the heart of the gospel. The essential content of the gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and rose from the dead. If he didn't die for all people's sins, the good news does not apply to all people. Whether Calvinism or Arminianism is correct, the extent/scope of the atonement of Christ is a gospel issue.
I absolutely agree! My disagreement with Calvinism is over how the gospel is viewed. I strongly believe the tulip is a false gospel; there is no good news in it. I could go on, but that is the bottom line.
Travis Echols AMEN!
Gospel means GOOD NEWS.
Is being predestined to hell “good news?”
Calvinism is NOT the gospel it most certainly is a gospel issue.
“IF” Christ really did die for everyone and Calvinism denies that then that is NOT the gospel.
Now go back in time 2000 years ago to the mount of crucifixion and stand before a beaten and bruised Jesus nailed to a cross in front of you breathing His last breath and yell up at Him, “this is not for everyone!”
“IF” it was in fact for everyone then how do you think those words would be received as Christ was dying on the cross for everyone?
Would your words be music to His ears or would the grief of those words break His heart?
REVELATION 22:17
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
@@apilkey so Calvinists are heretics?
Cause if we want to talk about gospel issues, the church fathers would say contemporary evangelicals are all heterodox (maybe even heretics) for denying baptismal regeneration
@@apilkey this is how I see it: Calvinism is wrong and error, but it is not heresy. Roman Catholics are in error, but not heretics. However, RC is a bigger "gospel issue" than Calvinism by a long shot.
Ify Nsoha Some reformers are honestly just deceived and don’t know any better and have just been brainwashed into believing it.
While yet others know full well what they are doing and have hardened there hearts to the truth of God’s Word and don’t have eyes to see or ears to hear anymore.
They refuse to humble themselves and learn of the Father.
These people are leading others astray and need to be treated differently then those genuinely seeking truth and who are willing to learn and forsake their ways when proven wrong by scripture.
It’s a different Christ a difference God and a different Gospel.
I’ll let you decide for yourself if that’s a heresy.
So my only question, as someone who comes from the more reformed theology is does God know what choice we are going to make? Because I feel like if the answer is no then wouldn't that imply that God isn't all-knowing?
I have the same question but then I started to consider the following: Why does God have to be “all knowing” for Him to achieve His plans? He is infinitely smart. He doesn’t need to see the future to win. I am not saying open theism is true, but it is intriguing.
I'm sitting here watching this with my four month old baby and she's smiling so big! lol
Aww
"Whom he foreknew..." Rom 8:29
According to the the simple reading of this text, God foreknew individuals themselves. The object of the verb "foreknew" is individuals themselves and nothing is mentioned about future actions. Although God knows all our actions in advance, this is not what the text is saying. There is nothing in the text about God foreknowing individuals future actions, this is a presupposition that is forced on the text to make the text fit a certain theology. What this text is simply saying, is that God knew certain individuals in advance, when? "Before the foundation of the world" as Ephesians 1:4-5
Theophilus Godlover Does it also say God predestined these people’s actions with no free will? I don’t think so.
Only certain individuals? How could he not foreknow everybody? Forever?
Victorya Martin I don’t think it’s only certain individuals.
If God foreknows all things and everyone, what does the word "knew" mean when Jesus says, "I never knew you." Is that the same word as the intimate knowing of marriage?
The know in foreknowledge is about love.
Exactly correct, I think.
"I never knew you" is know in a different way than just knowing things, details,..etc.
I know acquaintances. I know my sons. But its a different knowledge with my sons
Would love to see Mike Winger interview a Molinist like William Lane Craig. The Molinist view of God's knowledge is extremely interesting
The question of "human free will" has always been the same..if we are free within boundaries are we truly free? Certainly only God possess libertarian free will.
Also Scripture offers us passages where it seems clear that God is the one causing events and people's choices directly and other passages where this idea of man's freedom of choice is given...
I really believe that on this side of Eternity as Christians we will never know everything we wished we knew about God's nature and behaviour.
Especially when with advances of neuroscience we are learning that biology and brain's functioning have a huge role on how we perceive the world and make decisions..to the point where we can analyze the brain's activity of psychopaths and see on screen that certain areas of the brain connected with empathy and sense of guilt are basically malfunctioning...
I'm realising more and more that within the Christian "camp" as brothers and sisters we should be more specific on terminologies..what do we really mean by man has "free will"?
We're all born with specific talents, our brains are all wired differently..so definitely our free will is within what God would allow us to choose and what he wants us to choose ultimately..
God has no plan B.
Jesus's Death on the Cross wasn't a mere fixing what unfortunately was broken after the fall because of "human free will"..
The lamb was slained before the foundation of the world.
Also if we're all agree that we can't choose the day we're born and the day we die..
Indeed we ask is God cruel allowing evil and suffering when He could easily override man's will?
Many examples in Scripture shows us that indeed God has "forced" His own Will against the will of His creatures..the story of Jonah for example, even the very conversion of Paul..could God just respect Saul's will to go and persecute the Church? Yes He could, but He didn't. So could God bring everyone's desires to nothing and accomplish what He wishes even today? Of course He can!
So please let's stop blaming exclusively man's free will for all the suffering in this world, the truth is that God has no set rule where He is forced to respect and not to reject man's free will.
The existence of evil and suffering has a reason and purpose for humanity and angels that only the Lord fully knows..
We have Fred will when It comes to decisions to choose God
Oh definitely, there are *many* different levels of Free Will
I don't think God has true Libertarian Free Will the way you might think
God is actually really complicated, much more complicated than "The Trinity" certainly, but let's assume that "The Trinity" is quasi-true for a second
God obviously has in-house debates between himself, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
One time long ago, God (*may or may not have*) told me that God the Father prefers 100 pounds of Justice to 1 pound of Mercy, but Jesus prefers 1 ounce of Mercy to 12,000,000 pounds of Justice
With all due respect, I really do enjoy your videos but think you did a disservice to actual Open Theists. I understand that you were addressing all of them at a service level, but not once is the idea of “possibilities being a reality” or the Old Testament passages referring to God changing his mind ever raised.
Something even more possible that one has to consider is that the writers of the scriptures had differing beliefs on God’s foreknowledge throughout the ages (possibly through influences in the cultures surrounding them).
I’m not an open theist myself, but to leave the door open that those scriptures needs dealt with and that the writers could have disagreed with each other at least has to be evaluated - presuppositions on inerrancy aside (if we’ll allow that).
I was thinking the same thing! I know it probably wasn't Mike's heart to misrepresent Open Theism but even his description of it in the beginning is a bit of a misrepresentation.
"the writers of the scriptures had differing beliefs on God’s foreknowledge;" how is this possible if the Scriptures are God-breathed? I would think that if their beliefs differ, someone is wrong, in which case that writing should be thrown out as unscriptural.
How is God changing his plan/mind have anything to do with his knowledge or lack of? I think that idea makes many assumptions about God’s intentions in that moment that can not be known. Is there a good video that you would recommend on that subject.?
I think Mike did a stellar presentation. It wasn’t exhaustive but it hit the major points.
I have read Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders, Olson, Pratney and evening sadly some Jesse Morrell articles.
All of which promote Open Theism. If Exhaustive Divine Foreknowledge is undermined many other doctrines will necessarily follow suit.
@@pateunuchity884 like what ?
Mike points out a common argument against Calvinism that comes from believers calling a calvinist God evil and points out how we wouldn’t want to say that in front of God. I would. I wouldn’t want to follow a Calvinist God. And maybe that’s silly of me to say but it’s the same idea for me as if God killed babies for no good reason how I wouldn’t want to follow that version of Him either. I love calvinists and I think many are true believers, but I can’t get behind the doctrine of predestination as a moral doctrine…
I agree! Always be honest with God. If you don't like something, tell him! One of the things I was told I would be able to do in Heaven is actually pray for people in hell. In the afterlife, there are certain currencies that can be redeemed to help people in other worlds. Imagine doing a stand up comedy tour in Heaven, and getting paid in a currency that could be redeemed to buy water for someone like Hitler in hell (it is more expensive to buy Hitler water than other people though).
God is so much better than we think, and its a shame Calvinism is getting popular, which focuses too much on God's power, and not enough on his other awesome attributes.
@@EricSmyth4Christ who told you about this version of the afterlife?
@@rubypeterson665 It was information I farmed through lots of hours of prayer
But, just a few verses to support it
Matthew 19:26 states that with God, ALL things are possible
Matthew 21:22 says All things are possible with prayer
Luke 6:27 says to love your enemies (even those you hate), and bless them deeply
Colossians 3:2 "Set your mind on things above"
Ecc 3:1 there is a season for all activities
Psalm 30:5 God is infinitely Good, but not infinitely anti-evil
1 Corinthians 1:25 The smallest versions of God are bigger than the biggest imaginations of man
This is dope.
?
So what is prayer and why do we pray and does prayer change anything?
“God cannot learn.” Doesn’t that fly in the face of middle knowledge, which says God knows what anyone would do in any given circumstance? Doesn’t that mean I as a person told God what I would do before He created anything, and God learned what I would do in that circumstance and adjusted accordingly? That’s a blatant contradiction to the statement, “God cannot learn.” Learning means an outside source gives information to another source. That’s exactly what Molinism results in: libertarian free creatures giving information about what they would do in any given circumstance to God, who then has to take that new information into consideration after the fact. Your God is only omniscient after He’s decided to create a specific world. My God has always been omniscient since He alone planned everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen without anyone giving input.
Josh Peterson, this is a fabulous point that you have made! Either God knows everything perfectly including everyone's "free (wink, wink)" final choice or He has to learn something He did not know. There is no middle anything on this. Would love for anyone to try and explain away this TRUTH...
Great points.
I think Mike did a stellar presentation. It wasn’t exhaustive but it hit the major points.
I have read Pinnock, Boyd, Sanders, Olson, Pratney and evening sadly some Jesse Morrell articles.
All of which promote Open Theism. If Exhaustive Divine Foreknowledge is undermined many other doctrines will necessarily follow suit.
No that's false lol. God isn't learning anything in Molinism. The mistake you're making is thinking that middle knowledge is a chronological step (occurs after natural knowledge). This is false. Middle knowledge is a logical step. No Molinist claims that God is learning anything. God is omniscient, meaning he innately knows counterfactuals. And there are many that are in scripture itself.
Here's the wikipedia section on the biblical data:
texts: 1 Samuel 23:8-14, Proverbs 4:11, and Matthew 11:23. Other passages which Molinists use are Ezekiel 3:6-7, Jeremiah 38:17-18, 1 Corinthians 2:8, Deuteronomy 28:51-57, Matthew 23:27-32, Matthew 12:7, Matthew 24:43, Luke 16:30-31, and Luke 22:67-68.[original research?] William Lane Craig has argued at length that many of Christ's statements seem to indicate middle knowledge. Craig cites the following passages: Matthew 17:27, John 21:6, John 15:22-24, John 18:36, Luke 4:24-44 and Matthew 26:24
@@UltraX34 as usual, cage stage Calvinists gotta strawman cause they can’t beat a steel man.
@@UltraX34 Don’t molinist believe that God considered which world to actualize ?
Man, you really, really butchered the Calvinist interpretation of "foreknow." In Hebrew/Jewish understanding, when the subject knows an object, and that object is a person, then the word is usually being used to convey covenantal, special love. "Adam knew Eve, and she conceived a son." That's why God can tell Moses, "I know your name." I thought God factually knew everybody's name? That's not what "know" means when the subject and object are people. When the subject and object are people, the word "know" means covenantally love. The same is true when God tells Israel, "You alone have I known among the nations of the earth." He's not speaking intellectually. He's speaking emotionally, and that's the same background that Paul would have.
Therefore, when Paul says God "foreknows" people, he's saying that God loved them with a special love before they even came into existence. Just as He said to Jeremiah, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." God foreknow Jeremiah, and He foreknows His elect. That's why He predestined them to be saved, because He loves them.
Oh, you did address that point, and why do you ignore this? Because you have to. In the NT, whenever "foreknow" is used WITH GOD AS THE SUBJECT, it's clearly being used relationally. 1 Peter 1 says God "foreknew" Jesus. Is that factual, or relational? Romans 11 says God foreknew His remnant of 7,000 in Israel. Is that factual, or relational? It must be relational, lest you want to assert that the 7,000 preserved themselves with their free will, not God. That leaves Romans 8... it's relational, active, love.
We have free will to choose, but only God dictates the outcome, which we have no control over.
🤣🤣🤣
Jeremiah 1:5
[5]Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
I think there's a problem with that sort of view with God's middle knowledge and sovereignty. If God knows the what-ifs (which I agree) then he knows the choices we'd make in every given circumstance, but he also determines the circumstances in which we make these choices.
Huh? 28:00 Fatalism is the quintessence of Calvinism!
@Kristine
Any depth of research that doesn’t just skim the glittery treasure trove of RUclips hand me downs will come to the same conclusion as Winger. 👍🏽
Thanks for the ministry brother. With respect as a brother in Christ to sit somewhere in between Calvinism, ie His sovereign election according to His chosen love for you, and Arminian view that is basically the prescient view that God looked down through time and elected according to our decision, eventually leads us to the same place. It’s like the flash that you said you are watching, that God knows all of the alternate realities but has ultimately arrived at this reality we are living in now. So, is the reality that we are living in the best case scenario or is His will just for those he has chosen? Regardless of your answer, God knows the number He has chosen to be saved or He knows the number of those who will choose him I personally don’t think there is a middle ground. One is based on fate the other is pre determined.. thanks for the discussion from your 🌷brother😉
I'm a Molinist and I don't think you mentioned it by name but it relies much on this idea of God's middle knowledge.
Wait wait wait, you said, “God doesn’t want things to happen, but because of free will, He allows them to happen.” How does that fit with Psalm 135:6 where it says God dies whatever the heck He wants in heaven and earth?
God does whatever He wants it’s different from “Everyone does whatever they want”
Brah i don't even understand the comments here.
It’s alright, some of the commenters here don’t even know the stuff they claim to be spewing lol
It's called Middle Knowledge, because it's not knowledge, but it's not NOT knowledge. For example, there's a lot that He knows we won't do because we can't. We have a very limited envelope as creatures. or, He knows if a truck is headed at my house (a not impossible premise, given I live directly off a freeway exit) which I do not know about, but will have to do something about. I don't even know the decision is inevitable, let alone what I am going to do when I decide. (I would probably check to see if anybody was hurt.)
My own preferred definition of Middle Knowledge is, He knows all the options for everybody, and knows what He will do in every permutation of those options, and can also see beyond this to the next decision, and every permutation of every permutation of that decision. Ad infinitum.
I might call it Schrödinger's Knowledge, if someone were to ask me what to call it, which admittedly nobody has. It is knowledge all the interactions of all the superpositions of all the particles, and all the possible choices to be made by anything with free will .
But I am impulsive, so in any given circumstances, I am only ever about 95% sure what I will do, so I don't know, if the decision came down to me, I would behave as rationally as I currently percieve myself to behave. It could also be that I put off the decision until the last minute, maintaining Middle Knowledge about myself. It's a stressful way to be, not even having perfect knowledge about yourself.
But the outcome as regards the Glory of God (i.e., is God more or less glorified by this view over the other? Which seems to be an important consideration?) seems to me to be in favor of Middle Knowledge over Foreknowledge. If God knows Foreknowledge, He knows the future. If God knows Middle Knowledge, He knows the practically infinite variations of the future, which is way more knowledge. (It does have to require a redefinition of knowledge, but "omniscient" definitely requires a new definition of seeing. What does it look like to be omniscient? What kind of "attention" can be pointed in all directions at once? I know what it's like to attempt and fail to do this, since it's what ADHD seems to be trying to do.)
But there is one knowledge that God does have perfectly, and that would have to be His knowledge of what He would do in each of these situations. He knows that, e.g. every time He is called to forgive, He will. And we know this through the life of Jesus, and His perfect self-control: even if God was one of us, He would be perfect and we would murder Him for it and He would still win. God set the whole universe up, with laws and everything, that even if the free people He made disobeyed Him and ruined it foreverybody, (*rightclick*, "add to dictionary". Oxford who?) He Himself would be born as one of them at the best time, and He would do it all just by talking to people, and telling His obedient Universe to do a few crazy things, and He would fix it. He planned the entire thing, and every other entire thing that never happened because somebody was disobedient. But several people were obedient, and here we are.
There is an infinite number of things God knows; There is an infinite number of things God doesn't know
Molinism and Open theism both have logical problems for me because it defines God by time and space. But the Bible is clear that God lives in eternity. There is no past ,present or future to God. Even what we define as future is present before Him now. Which is why He has the ability to give us precise prophecy.
....if that makes sense to anyone.
@Tess W 👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
This isn’t up for debate. Whenever God is the subject of the verb “to foreknow” in the New Testament, it refers to a loving relationship that God had with someone before he existed. Peter said God loved Jesus beforehand. God didn’t know what Jesus would do. He loved Jesus. Paul says God foreknowing the remnant of Israel in Romans 11. That foreknowledge RESULTED in them being the remnant, not the other way around. Then, we come to Romans 8:29, where God is the subject and the called are the object. You missed the point again. Foreknowing always means fore-loved *whenever God is the subject.*
You're saying God didn't know what Jesus would do? How is that if God knows all?
I always thought armeniesm, and calvibism were both true. But then i learned that armenisim goes so far to say that God is not all powerful. So some basic ideas are true. But I guess Calvinism is correct, while armenism just isn't.
Hello MegaMech
, when we use words like Calvinism and Armenian, and then lump certain Bible doctrines under one or the other we deny ourselves the ability to think outside those theologies. Our choices are not between two men or two ideologies but is still open as we study scripture.
Neither is correct. The Bible is the authority, not human theology or philosophy.
God knows the future but he knows it on context as it is happening with humans having freewill by the actions he allows. I think.
Hey, uh, you should fix the "their" in the description. :/
Great vid though
Hey brother. Love you a lot. I'd recommend not getting theological truth from jobs friends. They were condemned by god bc of how wrong they were and god wanted to kill them.
God*
Actually they were right about a lot of things about God, they were just wrong about condemning Job and assuming God's attitude toward Job, and that's the issue God had with them.
Very unfair and inaccurate definition of Open theism at 00:40 a lot of the misunderstanding about open theism is because most folks who have a very weak interpretation of it are very vocal about it.
Hey Mike I am very interested in your response to this question what would you do in the case of the sentinelese I believe that's what they called the tribe of people that can't be contacted if we do we may possibly kill them with diseases should we leave them alone and know that God in his great wisdom willing his way make his word known to them or do we actually try to make contact
God can do all things, so he can totally create a square circle, and it would blow our minds.
He cannot do all things, but he most certainly can create a square circle
My brother Mike, I have just watched a video of you encouraging CHRISTIANS to participate in Christmas and I was very very disturbed in my spirit. THE BIBLE IS very clear that we cannot be unequally yoked together with unbelievers, The bible says the truth shall set us free, We have the resources to know the true date if Christ BIRTH, If we want to acknowledge his birth we can't do it Ignorantly as uniformed people. My beloved brother, The things of God is not Man wisdom it is Spiritual.. How can a Christian partake in WORLDLY things and be comfortable? Did you prayer and seek the lord to confirm this ?
I don't know - are you typing these thoughts out on a worldy RUclips media outlet?
Let's do "Systematic Theology" and figure out the attributes of man. It is clear that man is omniscient, immutable, omnipotent, and pure actuality. Look at this:
2Sa ...But my lord has wisdom like the wisdom of the angel of God to know all things that are on the earth.”
King David, a man, knows all things on Earth.
Luk 1:3 it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,
Here Luke says he has had "perfect understanding of all things from the very first" affirming his omniscience of all things from all eternity.
Eze 28:3 (Behold, you are wiser than Daniel! There is no secret that can be hidden from you!
Here God says to the Prince of Tyre that the prince knows all secrets of the heart.
Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and indeed, all is vanity and grasping for the wind.
Here the author says he has seen everything.
It is obvious, most Christians just don't know that the Bible clearly teaches the omniscience of man. This is an omniscience that is eternal, and part of man's immutable character. We see immutability of man testified in the Bible:
Psa 55:19 God will give ear and humble them, he who is enthroned from of old, Selah because they do not change and do not fear God.
Notice the unchanging part. Man cannot change in any detail, but is always the same. This act is identical to man's omnipotence:
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them.
Man cannot be opposed and can do anything they wish. In fact, because man is pure actuality, all these attributes are identical to man's essence. We see the famous "I am who I am" in Paul:
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am...
See! Systematic theology. You can't argue with those clear prooftexts. I can't wait for Mike's next sermon about the omniscience of man.
well played sir. You had me going there for a minute. Thank you for illustrating the fallacy of taking the Bible out of context and saying, "the inerrant word of God says..."
Christopher Fisher
You are stupid.
Dikobo Line Why would you say that? (Honest question)
Beautiful, this comment is Gold.
In our attempts to be the god of our own lives we establish doctrines that suggest we are more intelligent or more spiritual than someone with an opposing view. The bottom line is that both Calvinism and Armenianism have quite a bit wrong with a few things right. Arguing Theology has its foundations in religious pride.
as a calvinist, i'm interested to know what you consider wrong by calvinism and what you consider right by arminianism.
I still think the Calvinist view of "those whom he foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is the correct one, i.e. "foreknew" means "loved beforehand" or "chose beforehand". Mike Winger seems to think it means "knew everything about a person beforehand" (33:25 onwards) and disagrees with the Calvinist interpretation. Here's the issue with that as I see it. If God is omniscient, then he knows everything about everyone by definition. But Paul's language "those whom he foreknew" seems strongly to imply that this is in contrast to some other group that we might call "those whom he did not foreknow". "Those whom he foreknew" is in some sense a restricted group. Not everyone is foreknown in the sense Paul is using the word here. (Just as an omniscient Jesus will one day say to people "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23). If "foreknew" is referring merely to God's knowledge of every fact about a person, then God foreknows everyone in that sense. But then Paul would essentially be saying "he predestines EVERYONE to be conformed to the image of his Son." As I see it, since "those whom he foreknew" is not everyone, but actually only those who will end up glorified (v. 31) then the Calvinist view makes most sense, particularly since "know" is used throughout Scripture with the meaning of "have a personal, intimate relationship with" (although it does not ALWAYS have that connotation as Mike Winger demonstrated, it often does have that meaning). So the Calvinist interpretation is at least biblically plausible. The Arminian view that "foreknew" means "knew who would believe" is simply not what Paul wrote. He wrote of PEOPLE who were foreknown, not foreknown things about people. If Arminianism was true, Paul should have said, "For those whom he foreknew [would believe] he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son" but he didn't. Likewise for Mike Winger's view to be correct, Paul should have said "For those whom he foreknew [everything about]" or "those whom he completely foreknew" but he didn't because that would make the phrase be about everyone, and Romans 8:30-31 is clear that the foreknown, the predestined, the called, the justified and the glorified are all the same group of people, i.e. those God chose for salvation and not everyone.
In addition to what I said concerning God's foreknowledge in Romans 8:29, whom is the object of the verb 'foreknew'. There is no qualifying addition. Reading into this passage an idea not contained in the language itself, such as they whom He foreknew "would believe,etc.", is clearly an attempt at forcing a qualifying notion.
What is it - precisely , exactly , without exception - a person must believe in order to be born again ?
Thanks .
That Jesus died for our sins and rose again.
@@bramrawlings3051
Thanks Bram .
We don't find that articulated in the clearest evangelistic/justification passages (John 3:16,5:24,6:28-47,11:24-27,20:31 ; Acts 16:31 ; Romans 3:21-4:16 etc.) , nor did the Disciples believe that until after Jesus rose . They were regenerate in John 2:11 .
Jesus never made His work the object of saving faith , but rather His certain Guarantee of unending life to all who believe in Him for it - as Paul so clearly articulated (1 Timothy 1:16) .
To believe in Him is to believe that this doubtless guarantee is true , apart from any works whatsoever (Ephesians 2:8-9) .
When it comes to the elect being predestined , God in Eph 1 . 4 just as he 'Chose' us past tense in him before the foundation of the world. The predestining of the Elect here are before the world began. Sounds like a consistent use of a relational foreknowledge that God had already began with us . We the Elect we're already Chosen are just being United with Christ now in this life. How glorious of an atonement that is sure and will not fail to accomplish the plans of the Lord.
We are not the elect. Read Ephesians 1 and pay attention to “we” versus “you.” “We” is referring to the apostles. He doesn’t use “you” until verse 13.
Read 2 Corinthians 1 for another example of this.
@Joseph L this is not correct because in verse 12 ..
so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 1:12 ESV
This is not just the apostles because jesus says in the Gospels, Abraham saw my day and was glad. Paul asserts in Romans that the old covenant members were saved in christ in the same way 'by faith' that the new covenant members are. So the apostles weren't the first to hope in christ , you are very wrong about this sorry. You have also broken the golden chain of redemption in Rom 8, God will bring his people through all of these stages until they are glorified.
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30 ESV
The use of the word WE here includes the church, the regenerated are the church . When Paul speaks of his apostleship, he is very obvious as in 2 Cor 11. In this sense the WE are all those who are in Christ.
HEARD IT
Here's what i think;
Because God exists outside of space and time I think God knows every possible choices you're going to make and already knows where it eventually ends up.
But you have the free will to choose. If you have a million choices and you can pick any one, God still knows where all of those choices will lead cos whatever way you take, God knows your end already.
God is never surprised because he already knows what you'll pick but still it's your choice which one ypu finally go with.
And thus even before the foundation of the world, God already knows who's going to be saved because he's seen all. But it's not predestination. It's pre-knowledge.
We'll never fully understand God's omniscience on this side of our existence.
Yes, I've heard it put very well.... foreknowledge is not the same as causation. HIS knowing what we are going to do, does not mean HE caused us to do so.
"" Attention Mike Winger "" - How about participating in a formal moderated debate about this ?? .
Mike, are you from calvary chapel?
Yes he is
The Almighty has a purpose for this earth in spite of our free will. Mike. do you know how
Whos will is going to be done on earth as it is in heaven?
Do you know how those with free will are going to be judged righteously?
God knows every and all things futures past and present and all the nows..so yes he know what you are gonna do have done and will do. Yet you are still have free will..
If GOD knows everything, why did HE indicate that HE did NOT know where Adam and Eve were? (Gen. 3:9)
Why didn't GOD know that man was going to think and do evil continually and HE would regret making man? (Gen. 6:7)
It seems a little "man-like" to do something that you KNOW you are going to regret - but do it anyway. Are you saying ALMIGHTY GOD is just like us?
Why did GOD not know that Abraham was actually going to kill Isaac until Abraham raised the knife and was about to strike (Gen. 22:12)
Why did GOD have to go down to Sodom to SEE things for HIMSELF? Sounds like someone TOLD the LORD about what was going on, and HE said - "I have to see this for MYSELF. (Gen. 18:21) Why does HE have to go down to SEE what HE already knows? (according to you, that is).
I believe ALMIGHTY GOD is powerful enough to say -
"I COULD KNOW EVERYTHING IF I WANTED TO, BUT I CHOOSE NOT TO !!!
Big emphasis on CHOOSE. GOD can do what ever HE CHOOSES, and KNOW whatever HE chooses!
And HE CHOOSES - NOT to know, which then causes all the above mentioned scriptures make sense!
With YOUR understanding, you have find some convenient way to explain away the apparent scriptural contradictions to your claim that GOD knows everything!
I really would like to hear you explain GOD knew that HE would regret making man - but HE does it anyway and later says "I regret making man" - then destroys all of them except Noah and his family.
JC
PS
Think this one over carefully:
If you say GOD cannot choose to NOT know something, then you have just LIMITED the GOD you said is ALL POWERFUL.
I say ALMIGHTY GOD IS ALL POWERFUL and HIS power includes being able to make choices. And HE can CHOOSE to know or CHOOSE - NOT TO KNOW!!!
There is not a military commander above God that says "Dance Monkey, Dance Monkey!" (Even if %96 of Evangelicals think there is)
God doesn't have to listen to his "Foreknowledge", he can make decisions that counter what he thought he thought yesterday
Any belief against this is pretty absurd
God foreknew persons, _those_ whom he foreknew, not facts about those persons such as inherent faith. Romans 8:29 says that the particular people that God foreknew in saving relationship, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. It entails both our justification and sanctification being of God.
Everyone is free to welcome on whether or not you believe the sentinelese should be contacted or should they be left alone
My issue with Arminianism is that free will with foreknowledge is the philosophical equivalent of a square circle. Two mutually exclusive concepts. How can God know you will turn right in 5 minutes if you havent even thought about that movement. That movement doesn't yet exist and so God cannot know it. If He knows it then you have already thought to do it or you have no will to choose. Because when the time to make that turn comes, you literally CANNOT choose to go left instead or else God did not know your decision. And so, you never had a choice because in a world where God knows the future certainly, the future already as good as done.
I'm an Open Theist by the way. I also want to follow the Lord not due to fate but due to my own choice. The way i think is Calvinism is straight up heresy, and Arminianism tries to defend destiny and free will at the same time which cannot exist side by side. Regardless, I do not doubt God's prophecies because I know he has power to fulfil them.
Knowledge doesn't do anything but know.
If i know my brother would slap my sister.
I didn't cause her to slap, her
I can see that “middle knowledge” has turned the future into a mixed bag with God ordaining some events but not others. I know that this will please some who wish to cling to their idea of “free will,” but is there any point to it? Does “free will” or an autonomous will (independent of God) serve any purpose? R K McGregor Wright who wrote “No Place for Sovereignty,” has argued that Biblical responsibility does not require an autonomous will. Biblical responsibility is based upon a will that is tethered to God’s standards. It is the good tree that brings forth good fruit not a tree that acts randomly.
Arminians say romans 8:29 is a foreknowledge of faith because that's exactly what the verse is talking about.
We don't deny God has intimate knowledge of other facts as there are Arminians who are also Molinists such as Dr William Lane Craig.
@Mr Liver - Alive in Christ
Good to see you here. You’ll learn a lot from Mike. Leighton is a liar.
Hi mark According to what you are saying about God knowledge make me ask this question ... why he create people when he already know that they will not believe in him and they will go to hell ؟؟
Thank you
i always thought that God could choose to look into the future if He decided to at any time. Plenty of examples in the Bible show that He knows what will happen or what people will do in the future.
I would say that God knows what a square circle looks like, since He did make math and physics themselves, and created them to work the way they do. I believe He could easily change the laws and create a "square circle" or a "cube sphere." We could never say because we don't understand His abilities.
I know the square circle thing is ridiculous
I remember seeing on a TV show someone saying "God will see us", and the person responded by saying "God can't see through roofs" and there was laughter
It's kinda on that level
the LORD showed me 7 of them one time back in the day, when I asked him, one of which appeared on screen (Desiring God symbol)