I'd love to hear you talk about Titan Lords more (or, at all, as it were). It's funny how a game whose points costing is as formulaic as can be can produce such polarized results. I can recognize many of TL's problems for myself, but I'd be curious to hear your take on it.
I'm actually working on a series where I analyze each army in detail. I've got a lot of nots that I had to exclude for time's sake. I'll make one for Titan Lords as well! :)
Jackals could also really use an APC - their transport beast moves at the same speed as their base infantry. Still my favorite army to play - but I am generally the guy running an event, so winning isn't high in my priorities.
I'm so excited to see that the game has grown big enough for this kind of excellent, in-depth content which other games enjoy. I agree completely with your rankings, but I am surprised by your high evaluation of Advanced Tactics. In your experience, should most armies with access to this be bringing a hero just to have this option?
It’s very valuable for only 25 points. Considering it’s half a level 3 caster spell that is guaranteed! It’s especially good on elite armies who don’t have many units.
Why do you value melee so highly? In our local group, its role tends to be to hunt pinned/damaged units, generally tanks or high armor targets, but outside of that role we don't see a lot of use. A lot of melee units simply can't make it past a lot of the short range, high attack units, and retain their threat.
To be clear, this is competitive analysis where people are bringing "harder" armies. And some of the best armies like Soul Snatchers and Alien Hives can be charging in turn 1. But other armies can do it well with fast units with Strider or the Flying spell. I've found I can fit in plenty of chaff to protect the more valuable HTH units. HTH is much more deadly with the ability to route units at half strength rather than waver. Short ranged shooting is good, but there are plenty of armies that ahve Quality 3 and/or Fearless to avoid getting wavered. Also don't forget about Ambush and Tunneler.
@@NexusWargaming cool, we may have just gotten stuck in our ways with our smaller group. Will certainly give it a run again over the next few weekends, thanks!
Hey, thanks for your insights. Though, as all other recent opr content creators, you ignore one spell type: the target model gets 1-3 hits with AP(4). I think it's a nice extra tool. Speaking of extra tools, you missed the Tunneler special rule completely, which enables important plays in many situations. Also transports with tough(>6) and maybe even ambush are a tool on their own.
@@NexusWargaming That would be awesome. I feel like there is a larger community here hungering for competitive insight and guidance on list building, army comp etc and your one of the main guys who consistently puts out opr content. There was Jackals and Demons podcast who was awesome and did a few episodes but fell off the map and another one...can't remember the name but 3guys would talk army comp and it was more relaxed. They also fell off a map
Dwarves have the best transport in GDF. Ambush with the ability to melee. Since it can fight in melee it doesn't get threatened with moral checks nearly as often as EVERY other vehicle.
Muchas gracias por la informacion, es genial escucharte. Creo que es mas efectivo que los tanques goblin hacer una escuadra de 6 piratas con ap4 deadly 3 y shoota MÁS un lider grechin por 45 que les de extra shoota y asi tienes 6 disparos doblando los 5 y 6 haciendo que la probabilidad sea 4 impactos deadly 3 a 6 mas para defenderse por menos de 370 puntos y distancia 30 pulgadas
Oh wow, I never thought of that combo! Thank you for brining it to my attention. :) I think the Goblin Champ is super good to add on a special ability like Extra Shooty. Honestly, Orcs are just great!
Yea, it was tough trying to fit in every variation. I think Change Demons and Brothers are decent, maybe a B tier. The competitive side of Grimdark Future will probably be HTH focused, and army-wide Stealth may not be as valuable. I do think that Change and Lust variations need some working to make them unique without tacking on a rule.
Before watching this, a quick question: aren’t all the lists supposed to be balanced, as dictated by their army creation rules (for official OPR lists, at any rate - YMMV for unofficial lists)? I know my Robot Legions get another nerf, or price increase, or both, whenever they “balance” the lists with rules updates…😕 My army’s ability to regen/ repair (which is their “thing” has gone from a 4+, to a 5+, to the current 6+. Yes, they now ignore failed morale rolls, but then they have a 50% chance of losing all the wounds on all the remaining models in the unit. One is not equal to the other, and it makes me wonder how they ever ousted the Elf Fleets from their homeworld(s). Cheers,
Nerfs are always tough. I do think they are still a great army, but some of their best units may be units you don't own. Most of my testing involved TTS where I could pick whatever model I wanted. Robots can still be pretty tough with Regen Protocol, giving them 3 saves (if not Rending, etc).
Per balval yes there all balanced but like he said in another comment obviously two units could be balanced but one has a pistol tax and the other has all melee with great keywords that work well together like fast and strider. It does suck that RL got tons of nerds but they were s tier forever so it was bound to happen. There not bad now they are brought down to a more equal playing field.
Because of how OPR price units I find it odd you call out things being too pricy. Can you explain why they are too pricy? Perhaps you could call out what specifically you consider the ability/weapon that is increasing the cost of the unit more than needed. The video is very interesting, but having better context of WHY something is bad not that it is bad would help with videos like this.
That's actually a great question! Three general ideas of how I determine whether a unit is "pricy". 1.I generally regard units that do not suffer from the "pistol/hybrid tax" as being very efficient point-wise, while units with those taxes to be expensive. 2. It is true that OPR uses the same point system for all models, but some combinations of abilities synergize well with each other. For example, Fast and Strider are much better on a melee units than a units with a long-range weapon. For me, units that don't have "extra" abilities that won't work together well are pricy. 3. There are some special rules, like "Magma" and "Fast" that I view as just too expensive for their points, while other abilities like "Undead" and "Shield wall" are under-costed. Hence units with the under-costed abilities are better for their points. It's actually something that I've talked about in other videos. I didn't want to make this video that long and didn't get into it.
Not really. 3.3.1 is basically 3.2 with some clarifications. The big change may be Dark Brothers who took a big nerf with the nerfing of Grim. But not sure even with that.
@@xurben1 go 3000. For experienced gamers 3k is perfectly fine. Start off with a 1k learning game just to get down the mechanics and then bump it up from there
I feel you're a bit low with Prime Brothers. Everything hitting on 3 and defending on a 2. Plus regen in medical training. Then you have a 10 man squad of 30" ap4 plasma guns.
Prime Brothers are really good, but I rate them lower because I feel the competitive meta will be very AP-4 heavy. So they're Def 2+ will get caught in that crossfire.
I am surprised, you're the second person I seen rank custodians so low. Throw some spears, Regen and heavy shield on. You might have low model count, but you go first, plop them down on an objective and delete things with 9-12 AP(4) hits
I played with Custodians and they are a great army! But I think the competitive meta will be very AP4 heavy, and that will put them in the cross-fire where their Def 2+ isn't as good. Against, a non-competitive army, I think Custodians can do a lot of work!
@@NexusWargaming even in an AP(4) meta, I think they'd shine. Their shield wall puts them at 5 ups, and ap(4) isn't all that common couples with rending. So they get a Regen roll as well
I play Dao and my Girlfriend plays High Elf Fleets. She's brand new to wargames and she still wins more than half the time. It always comes down to my units failing morale. My important units spend most of the game shaken. In a 4 turn game a tank should not be unusable for 1/4 of the game while it still has half it's wounds.
Tanks are weak to melee in this game by design. Terrain, setup, and tactics are gonna play a huge role in what's happening in your game. It's gonna be more then just morale rolls
@@control745 I'm not talking about melee. The games are very close every time. We both mostly play shooty armies with lots of terrain. So it often comes down to who gets shaken. Her units are Q3 or 4 and mine are Q4 and 5. So mine shake and hers don't. GG
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Im so excited to watch this tonight. I love tier lists!
Thank you! It was a lot of work and research. :)
I'd love to hear you talk about Titan Lords more (or, at all, as it were). It's funny how a game whose points costing is as formulaic as can be can produce such polarized results. I can recognize many of TL's problems for myself, but I'd be curious to hear your take on it.
I'm actually working on a series where I analyze each army in detail. I've got a lot of nots that I had to exclude for time's sake. I'll make one for Titan Lords as well! :)
Jackals could also really use an APC - their transport beast moves at the same speed as their base infantry.
Still my favorite army to play - but I am generally the guy running an event, so winning isn't high in my priorities.
The army needs a lot of work. Probably some better spells and caster 3 can help.
A buff to their morales as well
I'm so excited to see that the game has grown big enough for this kind of excellent, in-depth content which other games enjoy. I agree completely with your rankings, but I am surprised by your high evaluation of Advanced Tactics. In your experience, should most armies with access to this be bringing a hero just to have this option?
It’s very valuable for only 25 points. Considering it’s half a level 3 caster spell that is guaranteed! It’s especially good on elite armies who don’t have many units.
Why do you value melee so highly? In our local group, its role tends to be to hunt pinned/damaged units, generally tanks or high armor targets, but outside of that role we don't see a lot of use. A lot of melee units simply can't make it past a lot of the short range, high attack units, and retain their threat.
To be clear, this is competitive analysis where people are bringing "harder" armies. And some of the best armies like Soul Snatchers and Alien Hives can be charging in turn 1. But other armies can do it well with fast units with Strider or the Flying spell. I've found I can fit in plenty of chaff to protect the more valuable HTH units.
HTH is much more deadly with the ability to route units at half strength rather than waver. Short ranged shooting is good, but there are plenty of armies that ahve Quality 3 and/or Fearless to avoid getting wavered. Also don't forget about Ambush and Tunneler.
@@NexusWargaming cool, we may have just gotten stuck in our ways with our smaller group. Will certainly give it a run again over the next few weekends, thanks!
Hey, thanks for your insights.
Though, as all other recent opr content creators, you ignore one spell type: the target model gets 1-3 hits with AP(4). I think it's a nice extra tool.
Speaking of extra tools, you missed the Tunneler special rule completely, which enables important plays in many situations.
Also transports with tough(>6) and maybe even ambush are a tool on their own.
I did miss Tunneler. It's funny because I was supposed to talk about the Alien Hives Burrower and forgot. But yea that rule is crazy strong!
Tunneler is a nasty little surprise even when you know it’s coming. Really powerful ace-in-the-hole.
Would you ever consider doing faction focus on armies. I love the orcs but i suck with them and get overwhelmed by the choices
I'm looking into it! I had to try to keep this video from going on too long. :)
@@NexusWargaming That would be awesome. I feel like there is a larger community here hungering for competitive insight and guidance on list building, army comp etc and your one of the main guys who consistently puts out opr content. There was Jackals and Demons podcast who was awesome and did a few episodes but fell off the map and another one...can't remember the name but 3guys would talk army comp and it was more relaxed. They also fell off a map
@@control745 Thanks! Yea, I too feel that we need more discussion on the competitive side, especially regarding list building and tactics.
@@control745 Dice per second also made like 3-4 podcasts of tactics in GF. I liked them and it is a pity, that they discontinued them.
Dwarves have the best transport in GDF. Ambush with the ability to melee. Since it can fight in melee it doesn't get threatened with moral checks nearly as often as EVERY other vehicle.
Good point! I do want to review Dwarf Guilds. I’ll try to get to it when I can 🙂
Muchas gracias por la informacion, es genial escucharte.
Creo que es mas efectivo que los tanques goblin hacer una escuadra de 6 piratas con ap4 deadly 3 y shoota MÁS un lider grechin por 45 que les de extra shoota y asi tienes 6 disparos doblando los 5 y 6 haciendo que la probabilidad sea 4 impactos deadly 3 a 6 mas para defenderse por menos de 370 puntos y distancia 30 pulgadas
Oh wow, I never thought of that combo! Thank you for brining it to my attention. :)
I think the Goblin Champ is super good to add on a special ability like Extra Shooty. Honestly, Orcs are just great!
Ah, powergaming, the enemy of fun.
Rip I have been playing a lot of change demons and they never got mentioned 😢
Yea, it was tough trying to fit in every variation. I think Change Demons and Brothers are decent, maybe a B tier. The competitive side of Grimdark Future will probably be HTH focused, and army-wide Stealth may not be as valuable.
I do think that Change and Lust variations need some working to make them unique without tacking on a rule.
Before watching this, a quick question: aren’t all the lists supposed to be balanced, as dictated by their army creation rules (for official OPR lists, at any rate - YMMV for unofficial lists)?
I know my Robot Legions get another nerf, or price increase, or both, whenever they “balance” the lists with rules updates…😕
My army’s ability to regen/ repair (which is their “thing” has gone from a 4+, to a 5+, to the current 6+. Yes, they now ignore failed morale rolls, but then they have a 50% chance of losing all the wounds on all the remaining models in the unit. One is not equal to the other, and it makes me wonder how they ever ousted the Elf Fleets from their homeworld(s).
Cheers,
Nerfs are always tough. I do think they are still a great army, but some of their best units may be units you don't own. Most of my testing involved TTS where I could pick whatever model I wanted. Robots can still be pretty tough with Regen Protocol, giving them 3 saves (if not Rending, etc).
Per balval yes there all balanced but like he said in another comment obviously two units could be balanced but one has a pistol tax and the other has all melee with great keywords that work well together like fast and strider.
It does suck that RL got tons of nerds but they were s tier forever so it was bound to happen. There not bad now they are brought down to a more equal playing field.
Because of how OPR price units I find it odd you call out things being too pricy. Can you explain why they are too pricy? Perhaps you could call out what specifically you consider the ability/weapon that is increasing the cost of the unit more than needed.
The video is very interesting, but having better context of WHY something is bad not that it is bad would help with videos like this.
That's actually a great question! Three general ideas of how I determine whether a unit is "pricy".
1.I generally regard units that do not suffer from the "pistol/hybrid tax" as being very efficient point-wise, while units with those taxes to be expensive.
2. It is true that OPR uses the same point system for all models, but some combinations of abilities synergize well with each other. For example, Fast and Strider are much better on a melee units than a units with a long-range weapon. For me, units that don't have "extra" abilities that won't work together well are pricy.
3. There are some special rules, like "Magma" and "Fast" that I view as just too expensive for their points, while other abilities like "Undead" and "Shield wall" are under-costed. Hence units with the under-costed abilities are better for their points. It's actually something that I've talked about in other videos. I didn't want to make this video that long and didn't get into it.
Does this apply also to firefight?
It doesn’t. I don’t focus on FF. 🙂
Any changes since 3.3?
Not really. 3.3.1 is basically 3.2 with some clarifications.
The big change may be Dark Brothers who took a big nerf with the nerfing of Grim. But not sure even with that.
@@NexusWargaming so we have a group of new players and ex 40k players. I have been suggesting 2,000pts but would love to know your take on 3,000?
@@xurben1 go 3000. For experienced gamers 3k is perfectly fine. Start off with a 1k learning game just to get down the mechanics and then bump it up from there
Please remake this video for the current version.
I’m waiting to do an updated tier list when 3.4 drops, which is supposed to be a big yearly update.
What is this pistol tax I keep hearing about?
In OPR you pay for all weapons. And many close combat units have pistols that they pay full points for and rarely use. Hence these units are taxed
I feel you're a bit low with Prime Brothers. Everything hitting on 3 and defending on a 2. Plus regen in medical training. Then you have a 10 man squad of 30" ap4 plasma guns.
Prime Brothers are really good, but I rate them lower because I feel the competitive meta will be very AP-4 heavy. So they're Def 2+ will get caught in that crossfire.
@@NexusWargaming That makes sense
I am surprised, you're the second person I seen rank custodians so low. Throw some spears, Regen and heavy shield on. You might have low model count, but you go first, plop them down on an objective and delete things with 9-12 AP(4) hits
I played with Custodians and they are a great army! But I think the competitive meta will be very AP4 heavy, and that will put them in the cross-fire where their Def 2+ isn't as good. Against, a non-competitive army, I think Custodians can do a lot of work!
@@NexusWargaming even in an AP(4) meta, I think they'd shine. Their shield wall puts them at 5 ups, and ap(4) isn't all that common couples with rending. So they get a Regen roll as well
@@TurtleWargaming You could be right. The Def 2+ can do alot of work. I may have to do some testing with them and raise my ranking. :)
@@NexusWargaming happy to get a game in over TTS sometime if you'd like!
@@TurtleWargaming Sounds great! I'll reach out to you and we can try to set something up :)
First to the bottom bay beee 🥳🥳🥳
I play Dao and my Girlfriend plays High Elf Fleets. She's brand new to wargames and she still wins more than half the time. It always comes down to my units failing morale. My important units spend most of the game shaken. In a 4 turn game a tank should not be unusable for 1/4 of the game while it still has half it's wounds.
Tanks are weak to melee in this game by design. Terrain, setup, and tactics are gonna play a huge role in what's happening in your game. It's gonna be more then just morale rolls
Yea, all those Quality 5 units really suffer. I'd like them to get some sort of ability to increase their morale tests.
@@control745 I'm not talking about melee. The games are very close every time. We both mostly play shooty armies with lots of terrain. So it often comes down to who gets shaken. Her units are Q3 or 4 and mine are Q4 and 5. So mine shake and hers don't. GG